Metro Phoenix Transit/Transportation Developments

[KEVINphx]

Actually a "Real Light Rail" system is not on the surface streets, it elevated up from the ground so that you dont have to stop at all those annoying traffic signals. It gets you to where you need to go (relative to an area) with very few stops. Check out the one in Chicago.:tup: :tup: But being that Phoenix is conservative, I guess that is the best we will see! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Wouldn't the El system in Chicago actually qualify as a "heavy rail" system? I know some cities have areas of their light rail that are elevated, but hardly any system nation wide that is totally elevated, if any. Many I've used run on the street at least part of the way.

[exit2lef]

The Chicago EL is indeed heavy rail.

Elevated light rail exists, but it is rare. Usually, if a city is going to the trouble to elevate or bury rail lines and keep them completely separate from traffic, then it also chooses long trains, controlled entry, and other attributes that separate heavy rail from light rail.

The selection of light rail vs. heavy rail really has nothing to do with political conservatism, but instead with an appropriate solution matched to a city's population density and development patterns. Most Sunbelt cities, like Phoenix, are a better match for light rail. Older, denser cities are generally a better match for heavy rail, although some, notably Boston, Philadelphia, and Baltimore, mix heavy and light rail lines.

[glynnjamin]

Actually a "Real Light Rail" system is not on the surface streets, it elevated up from the ground so that you dont have to stop at all those annoying traffic signals. It gets you to where you need to go (relative to an area) with very few stops. Check out the one in Chicago.:tup: :tup: But being that Phoenix is conservative, I guess that is the best we will see! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Youre an idiot. You went back and dug something up from 2 months ago and then tried to act smart. Chicago has ELEVATED RAIL which happens to be HEAVY RAIL...as everyone on here has already said.

You Fail. Thanks for playing though.

[combusean]

So on Stimuluswatch.org, Phoenix's request was for a total of $2.4 million to save the service cuts to the bus system. They were denied because the stimulus was focused on infrastructure projects.

http://www.stimuluswatch.org/project/by_city/Phoenix/AZ

I don't think they ever pointed out the cost of the service before. I think it's pretty lame that Phoenix couldnt find $2.4 million to ensure even the previous mediocre level of transit stays.

Re that airport train "The train will help take 20,000 cars off the road and will save the city $30 million a year on airport buses" the city says.

A bunch of regular service buses cost that much money on that route? Huh? I mean, they cordoned off $300 million to build the light rail on time ... in better times, admittedly, but if this really means what it says:

"Avoid planned suspension of all bus service before 5am and after 10pm beginning 12/29/08": $1.4 million
"Avoid reducing Saturday bus service frequency beginning 12/29/08": $1 million

this city is more broken than I thought.

[HooverDam]

City of Glendale rethinking light-rail path
City wants route to go to stadium, not downtown
by Rebekah L. Sanders and Scott Wong - Mar. 18, 2009 12:00 AM
The Arizona Republic
Glendale is pushing to change the route of the first light-rail line planned for the West Valley, seeing greater value in taking the line to the city's bustling stadium district than its quaint downtown.

But it's likely an uphill battle, as Phoenix officials say they can't provide the financial support that Glendale needs from them.

Building the alternative rail route would cost hundreds of millions of dollars more, require months of extra planning and support from other Valley cities.

Backers of the new line argue it would boost regional economic growth and reduce the crush of rush-hour traffic along congested stretches of freeway.

It could also ferry football fans to University of Phoenix Stadium, as well as hockey and baseball fans to nearby games.

Glendale Mayor Elaine Scruggs says Glendale can't afford to build light rail anywhere in the city alone. So, officials are pitching the route with the most benefit to Phoenix, along Loop 101, in the hope of persuading Phoenix to pay for a part of Glendale's line.

"I don't believe we will ever have light rail in Glendale if we go by what's on the map," Scruggs said, referring to the current proposed route to her city's downtown.

"The Loop 101 option is the only one that has a chance of getting any financial support from Phoenix, and we can do nothing without that."

Federal economic-stimulus money won't help pay for Glendale light rail because the project isn't "shovel-ready," or near construction. And Glendale officials believe there's no chance of raising hundreds of millions of dollars on their own in the current economic climate.

In addition, Glendale argues, the Loop 101 route would be more helpful to the region than any other proposed extension in Glendale. A preliminary Metro study concurs.

The downtown Glendale route requires about 3 miles of new track in Phoenix and 2 miles in Glendale.

The alternative route, to Glendale's sports and entertainment zone, would extend a section of track Phoenix already planned west on Interstate 10. It would require 6 more miles in Phoenix and 2 miles in Glendale.

Any changes to the original route, endorsed by Glendale voters in 2001, would need approval from the Metro light-rail board, on which Phoenix controls half the votes.

But Phoenix leaders say they won't pay a dollar more beyond the already-planned I-10 extension, leaving Glendale to pay for all the extra miles of track.

"We support it (the Loop 101 route) as long as she's (Scruggs is) not expecting Phoenix to pay for it," Mayor Phil Gordon said.

However, the two cities have begun preliminary talks about switching the tracks, with Glendale promoting the advantages to Phoenix and other cities.

Swapping routes would require Glendale to come up with at least $224 million more than previously budgeted. The West Valley city is seeking financial and political support from Phoenix to find a source for the additional funds.

Federal dollars outside the stimulus package could help cover the extra cost. Otherwise, Glendale may try to persuade Phoenix, Tempe and Mesa to give up 3 miles of their planned extensions for the 3-mile longer line. Regional money for those projects would then go to Glendale.

Could pursuing extra spending amid an economic crisis be a fool's errand?

Eric Anderson, transportation director of the Maricopa Association of Governments, says no.

"You have to make sure you have the rail lines in the right place," he said. "The corridor and the destination need to be the best.

"It's not, 'We only have this much money, so this is all we can build.' It's, 'We know what we need to build, so let's go get the money.' "

Glendale officials are pitching potential Valley-wide benefits:


• Commuters across the region could benefit from a light-rail route along Interstate 10 and Loop 101.


• Sports fans as far east as Mesa could get to University of Phoenix Stadium, Jobing.com Arena or West Valley spring-training ballparks without having to drive.


• Shoppers, diners and concertgoers who want to leave their cars at home could access Westgate City Center, an outdoor mall next to the sports and event venues.


• Stalled retail and home construction could be revived along the line.


• Major companies could market to prospective employees the route connecting residential areas and employment centers. In Glendale's sports-and-entertainment district alone, office space is planned for tens of thousands of workers.

Plan preceded venues
The downtown route was sketched on regional light-rail maps a year before construction began on Jobing.com Arena and two years before University of Phoenix Stadium's groundbreaking.

That plan had the line running from Phoenix's Montebello/19th Avenue station to Glendale's downtown shopping district.

Glendale shop owners have been counting on increased business from transit riders as well as the kind of revitalization seen along the new line in Tempe and Phoenix.

But in proposing the second route, Glendale's mayor and city manager point to the potential for the region: the sports venues, which now include a spring-training complex for the Los Angeles Dodgers and Chicago White Sox, along with the Westgate shopping mall and plans for business centers.

The alternate route would continue west on I-10 from where Phoenix's freeway light-rail extension would end at 83rd Avenue and curve north on Loop 101. It would end at Glendale Avenue near the football stadium.

Study on hold
Even before the first 20-mile light-rail line debuted in December connecting downtown Phoenix with Tempe and Mesa, extensions were being debated.

With the backbone of the rail system complete, planners are looking to add the ribs: an additional 37 miles of lines for Glendale, I-10, northwest Phoenix, south Tempe, east Mesa and northeast to Paradise Valley Mall.

Hopes are that the first round of extensions could be completed by 2025.

Shifting gears in Glendale could delay the city's original completion date of 2017.

Glendale's major route study was supposed to start late last year, but it now is on hold until officials confirm the route and negotiate funding. The analysis could cost up to $5 million, involve public input and take two years.

After a study, the new route proposal would have to go through a countywide approval process that could take six months. Phoenix's support would be crucial in gaining approval.

Which route?
Glendale and Phoenix city managers have met to discuss the plan.

But early this month, Gordon wrote a letter backing a third route, to the ASU West campus off 47th Avenue and Thunderbird Road. That possibility is the least viable option, according to a preliminary Metro study.

Three Phoenix City Council members, including Tom Simplot, who is the Metro light-rail board chairman, also signed the letter.

Gordon says the campus light-rail route could ensure the future of the school, which has been plagued by statewide university budget cuts.

"I believe the best way we could ensure the success and long-term viability of ASU West would be to extend light rail to the West campus," he wrote the West Valley business association Westmarc.

On Metro's 21-point checklist measuring the potential success of each Glendale route, however, the stadium route scores highest. Among its top marks are job creation, less impact on businesses and homes, ridership potential and development growth.

The downtown Glendale and ASU West routes aren't expected to create much development in Phoenix, according to Metro's study. But the stadium route could add more than 2 million square feet of office and retail growth inside Phoenix city limits.

As well, Metro estimates the new Glendale route could double the number of new homes built in Phoenix because of the line, to 2,629 homes.

For Glendale, office and retail development would remain nearly the same, about half-a-million square feet, no matter where light rail went, while potential housing construction would be greatest along the downtown line.

Costs in question
Complicating Glendale's task is the sheer expense of its proposal.

The I-10/Loop 101 route is 8 miles long; the line into downtown Glendale would be about 5.

"Length translates into dollars," said former Phoenix Deputy City Manager Tom Callow, who oversaw light rail for the city until his recent retirement.

Though Metro hasn't made a formal estimate for the project, light-rail costs run $70 million to $80 million per mile.

Not counting rising construction costs in the future, the tab for the stadium route could reach at least $560 million, about $224 million more than the downtown route.

Light-rail projects typically rely on about 50 percent in federal funding, with the rest coming from regional and city money.

Those regional dollars, which are generated by a countywide half-cent-per-dollar sales tax, cover several extensions in Phoenix, Tempe and Mesa but will cover only a small amount of Glendale's light-rail line.

Glendale is using a citywide half-cent-per-dollar sales tax to cover an additional portion of the cost. At this point, Glendale has not said how much money it needs from Phoenix.

Phoenix won't get much regional money for its northwest extension and is preparing to spend about $300 million to fund the route.

Even as Glendale makes the case for the route switch, Simplot says Phoenix won't be able to finance the extra length.

"Phoenix isn't an endless source of revenue," he said. "Glendale needs to step up and figure out where we're going to fill that gap."

Scruggs, also on the Metro light-rail board, said she has been waiting for Phoenix's official stance.

"If Phoenix does not want to participate ever, we need to stop wasting money," she said in response to Simplot's comments. Please put it in writing, and we can move on with our plans."

Puke. More of this bullshit of putting LRT down freeways, what a fucking waste. Glad we'll be spending millions (billions?) of dollars on something thats only used for a few hours each day. Running the extension along the current NW path, down Glendale Ave through Glendales Downtown to the Stadium district just makes too much sense I guess. The area between the stadium district and downtown Glendale could become the next Camelback Corridor if LRT was run down in it, but this will be an opportunity squandered. The lack of vision in this city never ceases to amaze me.

[nickkoto]

If they had half a brain, they'd want to route it through downtown with the goal of extending it to the stadium. Routing it down the 10 and up the 101 to the stadium (which is I believe within Phx city limits) would completely remove it from Glendale, and they'll see no benefit from it.

They should take a look at what's happened to Apache over the last couple of years and realize that it can do more than just move 8 home crowds a year to a football stadium.

[PHX31]

I obviously agree with the above two posters... unfortunately, somehow the people who have been put in charge are completely mindless and lack vision.

I hate mayor Scruggs... her daughter was in a bunch of my classes in H.S. and she was an annoying bitch.

[exit2lef]

If they had half a brain, they'd want to route it through downtown with the goal of extending it to the stadium. Routing it down the 10 and up the 101 to the stadium (which is I believe within Phx city limits) would completely remove it from Glendale, and they'll see no benefit from it.

They should take a look at what's happened to Apache over the last couple of years and realize that it can do more than just move 8 home crowds a year to a football stadium.

A route running along Glendale Ave or Grand Ave into Downtown Glendale and then west out to Westgate would make a lot of sense. The problem is that such a route would have more mileage within Glendale city limits, and Glendale appears unwilling to pay its fair share. Glendale's current strategy is to have a terminus within its borders at Westgate, but with as much as the route as possible passing through Phoenix. Even more appalling is the suggestion that Phoenix should pay for the small amount of the route that will actually pass through Glendale's borders.

[combusean]

Glendale Avenue was never the suggested corridor. Northern was indicated as more preferrable for some reason.

I like how Phoenix is entertaining this. I can't even think of the bullshit reasons I got for them not wanting to run it down the 10, but even fewer apply now.

[Leo the Dog]

How sad is it that Glendale cannot or isn't willing to bring LRT to their downtown?! They can't afford to build 2 miles of LRT down Glendale Ave? What a sad city. Phoenix is already going to extend LRT down the 10 to 83rd ave. It does absolutely nothing for the city of Phoenix to pay for Glendale's portion just to service a joke of a strip mall called Westgate "City" Center. Stick to the current approved plan of Glendale Ave. This is a no-brainer.

[glynnjamin]

I may be short sighted/narrow minded in my thinking but...

Doesn't it make more sense for Phoenix to spend the money building ONE mile of LRT to Union Station.
Glendale to spend the money to build 4 miles of LRT between 59th & Glendale to 91st & Glendale
MAG to spend the money to lease the god damn heavy rail lines and run a commuter train between the 79th Ave park-n-ride & Union Station ... and between Downtown Glendale (and other NW Valley cities) and Union Station

That way a)Phx gets to revive Union Station into a destination
b)Glendale will get more visitors into their downtown before/after games
c)the Heavy rail lines are only used during rush hour and before/after games (not hockey though...that's not a real sport here in AZ).

[nickkoto]

I may be short sighted/narrow minded in my thinking but...

Doesn't it make more sense for Phoenix to spend the money building ONE mile of LRT to Union Station.

I would say no. Unless Amtrak were to start service to Union Station again, or unless the line was extended elsewhere from there, the only reason for ever going to that corner of downtown rather than the existing nearby stops on Washington and Jefferson would be if you were going to one of the jails.

[Vicelord John]

I may be short sighted/narrow minded in my thinking but...

I'll stop you there.... yes, yes it is.

Why would you want to go to union station?

[electricron]

I would say no. Unless Amtrak were to start service to Union Station again, or unless the line was extended elsewhere from there, the only reason for ever going to that corner of downtown rather than the existing nearby stops on Washington and Jefferson would be if you were going to one of the jails.

Where does Phoenix plans to site their future commuter rail station to Tucson? Whether Amtrak heads to Phoenix or not is immaterial when that commuter train gets built. Notice, I wrote when, not if.

[glynnjamin]

Weren't we JUST talking about how they want to run the LRT down Jackson to the Capitol Building? Wouldn't that mean that Union Station would be on the route? Sure, it sucks ass now...but if you have three commuter lines (Grand Ave, I-10, and Tucson) coming together every morning and every afternoon, I can see it as becoming a place to chill. Lots of shops and restaurants. Could be a great place. Who cares if the jail is right there?

[HooverDam]

http://www.azcentral.com/news/traffic/lightrail/articles/2009/03/20/20090320transitfare.html
Fares for bus, light rail set to jump July 1
7 comments by Sean Holstege - Mar. 20, 2009 12:00 AM
The Arizona Republic
Beginning this summer, bus and light-rail riders will have to dig a little deeper into their pockets if they want to get around town.

The base fare for a one-way local ride will climb to $1.75 from $1.25 starting July 1, while the cost of a one-day pass will jump to $5.25 from $2.50 for anyone who buys it on a bus.

Those who buy day passes at light-rail stations or other outlets will pay $3.50. Valley Metro wants people to buy passes in advance because onboard purchases slow service.

After three months of hearings on the subject, Valley Metro's board of directors voted 12-1 Thursday to approve the steep transit-fare hikes. The agency will launch a public-awareness campaign in May to explain the new fares, as well as how to buy discount tickets.

Seniors, the disabled and youths will have to pay 85 cents, instead of 60 cents, for a one-way ticket and $1.75 instead of $1.25 for a pre-purchased day pass. Tempe's representative cast the lone vote against the increase, saying the additional expense would be a hardship for the Valley's most vulnerable residents.

The transit agency said it needed to raise rates to cap the public subsidy for the system at 75 percent.

By policy, a quarter of the costs must come from fares, and current rates aren't high enough to cover the growing expenses from the transit network's expansion over the past decade.

The new rates mark the first major fare increase on Valley public transport since 1994 and come as the agency has seen ridership increasing to record levels.

[HooverDam]

http://www.azcentral.com/news/traffic/lightrail/articles/2009/03/24/20090324metro-safety.html

Despite recent crashes, officials say rail safety system works
13 comments by Sean Holstege - Mar. 24, 2009 12:00 AM
The Arizona Republic
A central Phoenix accident last week marked the 13th collision between a Metro light-rail train and another vehicle since the system opened three months ago, renewing safety concerns about trains in streets.

Last Tuesday's crash puts Metro on pace to almost double the first-year accident rate of Houston, where light rail earned a reputation as the "Wham Bam Tram," though Houston has a third less track than the Valley.

The latest collision happened when a motorist began an illegal U-turn at a red light near Central High School, police said.

An analysis of police reports shows an early pattern: illegal turns and confused drivers causing accidents.

To date, no light-rail operator has been faulted and none has failed drug or alcohol tests.

Only one accident has raised questions about whether Metro equipment was working properly.

The record tells Metro officials they've learned from Houston's mistakes and have engineered safe trains and traffic signals.

"I don't think anything has occurred yet that says we've had a flawed design," Metro Chief Executive Officer Rick Simonetta said.

But the sheer number of accidents since the Dec. 27 opening has fueled the ire of light-rail critics, who had warned that trains and cars sharing streets would lead to problems.

"I was at an intersection and counted 15 different signs," said Phoenix resident Bob McKnight, a longtime, outspoken critic of the system. "Somebody driving at speed limit couldn't possibly take all that in. It's overload."

Past research suggests it shouldn't be a surprise that some motorists are having trouble navigating around the trains.

A definitive 1996 Transportation Research Board survey of 10 light-rail systems, which noted that only 30 percent of the systems' tracks were in the streets, said that 90 percent of the crashes occurred where cars and trains shared the road.

Nearly the entire length of Metro's 20-mile line shares a right of way with street traffic, and for years, Phoenix has been at or near the top of the list of cities with high rates of red-light runners.

Confused motorists
While onboard video footage of the crashes can seem dramatic, local accidents have resulted in only light damage and a few minor injuries.

A downtown Phoenix collision on Feb. 6 best illustrates the struggle for co-existence.

Around 7 p.m., an 18-year-old Chandler woman was driving west along Washington Street, according to a police account of the incident.

As she reached Third Street, the woman turned right, against the red arrow, and across the path of a train traveling in the same direction.

She said she was unfamiliar with the area and was not wearing her contact lenses at the time, even though she needs them to drive legally.

She had been on her cellphone when she ran into the light-rail train.

The woman was cited for failing to stop at an intersection, one of nine drivers ticketed after a collision with a Metro train.

Pattern emerges
It appears to be an oft-repeated story line.

In 10 cases for which details exist, police reports indicate motorists either ignored a signal, ran a red light or were blamed for a hit-and-run.

Most often, motorists and trains were traveling in the same direction, suggesting car drivers didn't check over their shoulder before starting their turn.

In at least three cases, drivers had no insurance or valid license.

Dubious record
Although it may be too soon to draw firm conclusions about Metro's safety record, the transit system is eclipsing the accident rate of Houston's light-rail service, which opened in 2004.

In its first two years of operation, Houston racked up 62 collisions, causing 110 injuries and one death.

It's a record that prompted critics to anoint the train system with such dubious nicknames as a Streetcar Named Disaster, Danger Train and Wham Bam Tram.

Houston witnessed a crash roughly every 12 days during that 24-month period.

So far, Metro is averaging a crash almost every six days.

Both the Phoenix and Houston systems have similar traffic controls, designed to give approaching trains better odds of getting a green light at each crossing while showing red to any car that could cross a train's path.

Critics said using the same traffic-control system as Houston would lead to accidents here, too, but Metro disagreed.

Instead, transit officials say the increased rate of crashes is more attributable to Arizona's line having triple the track mileage and number of intersections.

Public outreach
In the months before the opening of light rail, Metro spent a lot of cash trying to fend off problems.

In July, the transit agency launched a $685,000 public-safety campaign. Since then, it has contacted 2.5 million people Valley-wide via telephone, mailers and public events in an attempt to better educate them about the system.

In addition, Metro spent millions on systemwide safety features, including new curbs to separate cars and trains and bells and flashing lights to warn of oncoming trains. Special train bumpers were built to minimize damage and prevent cars and people getting caught underneath.

Nothing suggests a need to rethink safety, as long as "the trends remain the same with a limited number of minor accidents by people violating the traffic rules," Simonetta said.

"You react to what's real, not what's perceived."

For now, only one crash, in Tempe, has prompted an internal Metro investigation.

On the afternoon of Jan. 5, a pickup-truck driver pulled into an intersection at University Drive, which is governed by a railroad-crossing arm.

Video footage shows the driver was on his cellphone and began crossing the tracks before the warning arm reached a vertical, safe position. Police cited the truck driver for failing to yield and for driving on a suspended license. Witnesses told police that the rail arm was not functioning properly. They said the arm was raised and the crossing lights stopped flashing as a train entered the intersection.

It is the only crash in which a Metro mechanical device has been called into question.

A Metro report on that incident is still weeks away.

[Don B.]

^ I read that article this morning and man, I just want to smack some sense into some people. The accidents are ALL the fault of the drivers, yet that means we should get rid of the light rail? Why does this twat Bob McKnight get to spew his opinion all over the place? He sounds like a cranky old stick-in-the-mud if you ask me, and his opinion is about as valid as asking Mildred Smith, 88, of Sun City, what she thinks of something that she will never use.

Idjuts.

--don

[PhxPavilion]

Further proof that Arizona drivers can't drive to save their lives.

[Vicelord John]

srsly lyke ttly omg i was lyke txting my bff and train hit me.

[exit2lef]

This sounds like good news:

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/stories/2009/03/23/daily37.html

The first leg of the Airport train, from 44th St. / Washington to Terminal 4, is already in the early stages of construction and scheduled to be done in 2013. The second leg, from Terminal 4 to the rental car center, was not going to be done until 2020, but with the stimulus money, I believe the plan is to build the whole train at once and have everything open in 2013.

[Tfom]

In regards to the train collisions, the solution to this problem is very clear. Every idiot who was dumb enough to get hit by a TRAIN should have their license revoked for life. If you are so dense you aren't able to notice something as large as a train, I don't want you driving next to me on the streets, the highways, I don't even know if I trust you to walk next to me. When I'm crossing the tracks on green I take a quick look to the left for a train because frankly I don't want to ride that rollercoaster.

And for the love of God can we also do a safety campaign that teaches the people in this city how to merge on and off the highway.

That being said, the drivers in Florida are worse, and it's not just the old ones.

[electricron]

Will anyone in Phoenix ask for the train crashes videos?

Here's one from Houston:

CV2rdGX4JYc

[scottkag]

Will anyone in Phoenix ask for the train crashes videos?

Here's one from Houston:

CV2rdGX4JYc

I don't feel quite as bad about the drivers in Phoenix now. Also, if you watch this it is pretty obvious why the tracks here are separated from traffic by a curb.

[nickkoto]

Will anyone in Phoenix ask for the train crashes videos?

There was one with the article that Hooverdam posted. No idea how to embed it, but here's the link:

http://gannett.a.mms.mavenapps.net/mms/rt/1/site/gannett-phoenix-531-pub01-live/current/launch.html?maven_playerId=allforenigma&maven_referralPlaylistId=playlist&maven_referralObject=1059998645


The only one of the whole bunch that wasn't 100% caused by a stupid driver was the one with the white pickup truck full of furniture (1st collision shown). There was an equipment malfunction there. The crossing gate went up after a first train passed, and what you have is the video from a 2nd train that passed through while the gates were up. Even with that one, Tempe PD still cited the driver because the gates weren't quite all the way up before he started to go.

[PHX31]

yak, that design in houston is terrible. I can't totally tell, but it looks like the left turning vehicles actually have to look for the train (as they have a green "permissive" light to turn). It looks like they might have a train symbol on the signal mast arm alerting the drivers that a train is there, but at least in Phoenix you'll never be given a green light to turn when a train is there... all our track crossings/turns are red arrows/green arrows. The people in Phoenix getting creamed are stupidly turning on a red arrow in front of the train. In Houston, they're turning on a green.

[glynnjamin]

Simply amazes me. You guys are right, their driver's licenses should be revoked, permanently. It is a red arrow, dummy, it applies to you, that's why it is over your lane, try looking at it. Gzzz

[Vicelord John]

I dont think their drivers licenses should be revoked. I vote get them out of the gene pool. If you're dumb enough to get hit by a train...

[exit2lef]

Looks like today's announcement was federal stimulus money for runway improvements, but Phoenix is lobbying hard to get more funds to allow construction of the Airport train entirely by 2013, rather than in two stages:

http://www.azcentral.com/community/phoenix/articles/2009/03/26/20090326airtrain0326-ON.html

[exit2lef]

Problems with revenue due to problems with the ticket machines and pass readers:

http://www.azcentral.com/news/traffic/lightrail/articles/2009/03/26/20090326lightrail-losses0326-ON.html

I've seen some of this with my own eyes:

-Machines that use Windows (why?!) and crash as Windows machines are prone to do.

-The dedicated pass readers at some of the busier stations rejected many transit passes in the early weeks of rail service; that problem has since been fixed, but I'm sure it contributed to missing revenue.

- Pass holders like me who normally tap their passes but skip doing so if a train is about to board and a slow-poke first-time rider is monopolizing the machine.

I'm generally very pleased with how well light rail has worked out, but the ticket machines and pass readers have been a weak point in the system.

[Tfom]

I dont think their drivers licenses should be revoked. I vote get them out of the gene pool. If you're dumb enough to get hit by a train...

In that case let them keep their drivers licenses, it will happen eventually.

[PhxPavilion]

Will anyone in Phoenix ask for the train crashes videos?

Here's one from Houston:

CV2rdGX4JYc

:haha: :lmao:

[NIXPHX77]

Looks like today's announcement was federal stimulus money for runway improvements, but Phoenix is lobbying hard to get more funds to allow construction of the Airport train entirely by 2013, rather than in two stages:

that was my understanding, then i read something somewhere where it said that the sky train would still not go all the way west to the rental car facility if we get the extra stimulus money. that would still be a later phase.
i hope that is not true.
also, i wish and hope that the city, county, and state will push LaHood
for stimulus money for commuter rail and intercity rail, and for track repairs, etc. so Amtrak can return to DT Phx. that lack of service really bugs me.

[pbenjamin]

Riding back from Tempe Festival of the Arts today, we get on at Veterans Way/College and noticed it was a bit warm. By the time we hit the Town Lake bridge we realized that people were complaining, fanning themselves, etc. People were making comments to the effect that there was no way they would ride the thing in the summer if this was an indication of the quality of the cooling system. When we stopped at 44th and Washington, I noticed that the driver got off and another guy got on in his place. As the new driver settled in the doors closed and suddenly the AC came on. The moron who had been driving hadn't had it on. By the time we got to our stop it was nice and cool. Seems like it should be controlled by a thermostat, not a driver-controlled switch.

[KEVINphx]

that was my understanding, then i read something somewhere where it said that the sky train would still not go all the way west to the rental car facility if we get the extra stimulus money. that would still be a later phase.
i hope that is not true.
also, i wish and hope that the city, county, and state will push LaHood
for stimulus money for commuter rail and intercity rail, and for track repairs, etc. so Amtrak can return to DT Phx. that lack of service really bugs me.

Well just by the look of things on the Amtrak website (11 hour journey from Flagstaff to LA union station) who the hell is going to fork out over 120 bucks each way for a trip that would be much faster and cheaper by CAR or AIRPLANE? It would be great to have that connection, but until we have real high speed rail or MUCH cheaper rates for the slow service that exists, why would ANYONE use it?

[exit2lef]

that was my understanding, then i read something somewhere where it said that the sky train would still not go all the way west to the rental car facility if we get the extra stimulus money. that would still be a later phase.


I think you're right. After reading some more about this, I believe the stimulus money will be used to extend the Sky Train to all three passenger terminals in the first phase of construction. Connection to the rental car center is still planned for 2020.

[Kroney]

Well just by the look of things on the Amtrak website (11 hour journey from Flagstaff to LA union station) who the hell is going to fork out over 120 bucks each way for a trip that would be much faster and cheaper by CAR or AIRPLANE? It would be great to have that connection, but until we have real high speed rail or MUCH cheaper rates for the slow service that exists, why would ANYONE use it?

Departing from the Maricopa station is a better option compared to Flagstaff. It's closer to Phoenix, cheaper ($38 one way fare), and it takes less time to get to LA (7.5 to 8.5 hours).

If the cost and time were the same for a Phoenix station, I'd use it. Also, I'd imagine that retirees, who have a ton of time on their hands, would get plenty of use out of it.

[glynnjamin]

The train is the greatest way to travel. It isn't always about getting to the destination as quickly as possible. During our honeymoon, we took the train from Boston to NYC, NYC to DC, DC to Sandusky, and Sandusky to Cleveland. Not only was it more comfortable than an airplane but it was more convenient. Train stations drop you off in the middle of the city so you don't need a cab or rental car to get you from the airport. Train stations don't require all of the nonsense security that airports have and you can pick your tickets up from an automated machine. More room in the seats, more storage for luggage, electrical outlets for your phone/laptop, wifi on many routes, and the ability to get up and move around.

Sure, Amtrak has its issues and is not perfect. That is primarily due to the fact that they have to share the lines with commercial freight which gets priority. If the government put some time and effort into building a reliable infrastructure instead of sticking bandaids on the same track we built in the 1800s, then more people would use rail - especially in light of how bad flying has become.

The trip from Maricopa to LA is a great one. The train gets you at like 2am, you sleep the whole way there, and get in at like 730 in time to do whatever you are there to do. Plus, you are at Union Station so you have access to the subway and all of the metro trains to get you around town.

[Vicelord John]

ugh.... union station in LA.... not wehre I want to be.

Come to think of it, I don't want to be anywehre in LA. San Diego for me please.

[Leo the Dog]

If Amtrak were ever to restore Phoenix service, the problem of going to LA is that the train takes you down to Yuma and then turns more northwesterly towards LA. This is why it takes 8 hours to get to LA from Maricopa, it is not a direct route. Amtrak would need to invest in new track to make it a feasible route.

I have to agree with glynnjamin. When I lived in Boston, I would take the train down to NYC to visit my sister. I'd take the "T" (Boston's subway) to Back Bay station, transfer to the Amtrak platform, board the train to NYC, (with no security lines or wait time), train would depart on time and would arrive on time at Penn Station. From Penn Station, I would either walk to her apartment if it was a nice day or fork over the $10.00 for a short cab ride.

Even though the train is a little slower than an airplane, in the end, it was about the same amount of travel time because I avoided the hassles of the airports and the added transport time from Laguardia to Manhattan (don't forget, flights are ALWAYS delayed in the Northeast corridor). The ride is much more comfortable than a plane, roomy seats (First Class style), plenty of overhead storage bins.

[KEVINphx]

Departing from the Maricopa station is a better option compared to Flagstaff. It's closer to Phoenix, cheaper ($38 one way fare), and it takes less time to get to LA (7.5 to 8.5 hours).

If the cost and time were the same for a Phoenix station, I'd use it. Also, I'd imagine that retirees, who have a ton of time on their hands, would get plenty of use out of it.

Well that price is definitely more reasonable than what I found on my quick search, then again; if we are going to make the arguemtent about the "journey" then I'd say the scenery from Flag is definitely worth the long trip time versus Maricopa or Phoenix!

[mwadswor]

A big part of the problem with Amtrak from Phoenix is that they only run the busses to Flagstaff, even though Maricopa is so much closer. There's just no convenient way to get to Maricopa in the middle of the night to catch a train, which makes it pretty impossible to take the train from Phoenix to LA because the Flagstaff route is so much more expensive and takes so much longer than flying. Does anyone know why Amtrak doesn't run busses down to Maricopa too?

[Tempe_Duck]

A big part of the problem with Amtrak from Phoenix is that they only run the busses to Flagstaff, even though Maricopa is so much closer. There's just no convenient way to get to Maricopa in the middle of the night to catch a train, which makes it pretty impossible to take the train from Phoenix to LA because the Flagstaff route is so much more expensive and takes so much longer than flying. Does anyone know why Amtrak doesn't run busses down to Maricopa too?

From my understanding they have been running buses from Phoenix to Maricopa ever since they left Phoenix.

[Kroney]

A big part of the problem with Amtrak from Phoenix is that they only run the busses to Flagstaff, even though Maricopa is so much closer. There's just no convenient way to get to Maricopa in the middle of the night to catch a train, which makes it pretty impossible to take the train from Phoenix to LA because the Flagstaff route is so much more expensive and takes so much longer than flying. Does anyone know why Amtrak doesn't run busses down to Maricopa too?

The Arizona Rail Passenger Association's (ARPA) website (http://www.azrail.org) provides a good sequence of events. But I'll provide a brief recap since I visit that website frequently: Amtrak discontinued passenger rail service in Phoenix in 1996. Immediately thereafter, it offered bus service from Phoenix to Tucson for those who wanted to catch the train in Tucson. In 2001, Amtrak discontinued bus service to Tucson and, as a trade-off, added a train-only stop in Maricopa. That might be an OK option for Phoenicians who want to take the train elsewhere, but it probably killed any chances of tourists taking the train to visit Phoenix.

A May 1997 trip report by one of ARPA members offers some insight on the lack of popularity of the bus trip to Tucson. Apparently, it averaged 10 or fewer riders and it was a very hot ride.

[Tfom]

I saw a 3 car train about an hour ago. It was stopped at 19th ave and Camelback headed west.

[glynnjamin]

I saw a 3 car train about an hour ago. It was stopped at 19th ave and Camelback headed west.

You lie. Those are a myth...like dragons, unicorns, and a Collier's skyscraper.

[arkhitektor]

srsly lyke ttly omg i was lyke txting my bff and train hit me.

Seriously. In at least half of the accidents in that Houston video, the lane was plainly marked as straight only:

http://i42.tinypic.com/2ch2edf.jpg

[Classical in Phoenix]

You lie. Those are a myth...like dragons, unicorns, and a Collier's skyscraper.

No, I saw it too!

[Tfom]

I seen it! It was gray colored and slender like. It come outta the east right yonder. The dog was hollerin up a storm an' I black out. When I come to it done left an' I think they took the dog. Damn if'n I didn't love that dog.

[exit2lef]

I saw a 3 car train about an hour ago. It was stopped at 19th ave and Camelback headed west.

I got on light rail this morning at 9 AM and wondered why the train seemed less crowded than usual. Only when I got off did I realize that I was riding on a three-car train and the usual passenger load was therefore spread over 150% of the normal seating. I wonder what's up with the three-car trains?

[PHX31]

/\ I still haven't seen a 3-car train, ever. Not during peak hours, not on days with large events happening (all-star game, etc.), and never as I pass by the tracks on a normal day... I live, work, and play within a mile of the track and I see probably 5 maybe 10 trains per day. I've yet to see a 3-car train.

Oh yeah, and about a week before the light rail officially opened, I bitched about valley metro (or whoever) building a nice new bus pull out on eastbound Thomas Road about 50 feet east of the existing bus stop, but not having it in use by the grand opening. This new bus pull out is great in that the green line buses don't have to stop at the Central bus stop and block the right lane of traffic directly next to Central (and possibly block the light rail track because of queuing cars). I figured they'd un bolt the bus shelter and stand and move it to the new bus pull out area. Well, 3+ months later and they still haven't made the move and buses are still blocking cars on Thomas Rd near the track. What gives?

[Vicelord John]

I seen it! It was gray colored and slender like. It come outta the east right yonder. The dog was hollerin up a storm an' I black out. When I come to it done left an' I think they took the dog. Damn if'n I didn't love that dog.
what the shit?

And I've seen quite a few 3 car trains... you suburbanites just need to get out more.

[HX_Guy]

Simonetta tells Friends of parking mystery

Metro chief Rick Simonetta always draws interest when he speaks at the annual Friends of Transit conference, as he has been doing this morning.

He presented a bit of mystery to a roomful of Arizona mass transit luminaries gathering at the downtown Sheraton for the 7th conference today. It has to do with park-and-ride lots. Planners always assumed (read: worried) that parking spaces would be gobbled up as soon as the system opened because that happened at most of the new rail system openings around the country in recent years.

Instead the lots are half full. Simonetta announced the following stats:
Montebello Station is 26 percent full,
Camelback/19th Ave: 16%
Central/Camelback: 84%
Gateway: 64%
Dorsey: 99.5%
McClintock: 79%
Price: 31%
Sycamore: 58%
Overall System: 46%

That may sound like bad news for light rail, but here’s the mystery: train ridership is climbing and higher than projected. And a healthy portion of those riders are people who have cars and don’t need to take the train. So what’s up?
Simonetta had this take on it: “Light rail brings a lot of new ridership to the whole transit mix….so you see more bus riders now too. It’s part of an integrated transit system.”

Backing that claim up somewhat, Valley Metro boss David Boggs told the Friends that the new LINK bus in Mesa saw a 43 percent bump in riders between January and February. The LINK is the Valley’s first rapid bus service of its kind and was opened to coincide with light rail and feed passengers to it.

Here’s final food for thought, as the delegates sit down to chipotle turkey sandwiches. Most of the busy park-and-rides are on the east end of the line, not the northwest end, where the first extension is about to be built. Apparently SE Valley commuters are more eager to get out of their cars than folks in Glendale and points beyond. Is it a coincidence that Mesa is quicker out the shoot than Glendale for the next extension?

Hmm...weird. I didn't want to say on AZCentral to fuel their fire, but could it be that the ridership numbers are off somehow? That could be one explanation that the article didn't give.

[mwadswor]

It could also be related to the number of ASU students who ride the orbit or park in ASU parking and ride the train downtown.

[exit2lef]

Hmm...weird. I didn't want to say on AZCentral to fuel their fire, but could it be that the ridership numbers are off somehow? That could be one explanation that the article didn't give.

But you and I agree, I believe, that the trains are amazingly full almost all the time, so I don't see any basis to believe that ridership numbers are off.

Is see the parking paradox as a great problem for us to have: Plenty of people riding the trains, yet you can almost always find a parking place. I remember when I was volunteering as a METRO light rail ambassador at Central/Camelback during the grand opening weekend. A woman I talked to wanted to use light rail to commute, but expressed skepticism about ever being able to find a parking space after 7 AM. I thought about her the other day when I arrived late at Central/Camelback at 9 AM on a weekday and still found a space.

I don't know what's going on -- maybe people walking to the station, maybe people transferring from bus lines - -but it's producing some great outcomes, so I won't question it. The knuckledraggers who comment on AZ Central can indulge in their crackpot "no one's riding it" theories, but I think everyone on this board has seen otherwise.

[bwonger06]

I am not amazed a few of the placed are open. The Christown lot is just massive. I never really ever think that place can fill up (besides the first weekend of free rides). I think others see Camelback and 19th is just a sketchy area seriously, there is almost nothing there except a Church's Chicken and a Liquor Store.

Meanwhile, I always thought the Camelback and Central location would fill pretty easy, seems more like an urban spot in a better area with lots of action all around the place ranging from the indie strip across the street, the AJ's mega strip, some nice places around Landmark, etc.

And I am not surprised ASU lots are full. Year round passes cost around 600 on avg (unless you want to walk from lot 59). Why not park at the PnR at Dorsey and ride the rail for free with the Upass and save a lot of money?

[HooverDam]

I think the issue is may be people are parking at near by shopping centers then walking over. For instance tonight I ate dinner at Tasty Kabob on Apache/Dorsey and just left my car there instead of the park and ride specifically designed for the LRT. I imagine this happens a lot.

It is unfortunate in a way, I was really hoping the parking lots wouldn't meet demand and garages would have to be built. I'd love to see all of our surface park and rides one day replaced with garages with ground floor retail (and maybe some limited small office space for like dentists, lawyers, etc) to help reintroduce an urban walkable fabric.

[glynnjamin]

With regards to the east vs west park & rides, it would seem to me that two things are happening.

1. Traffic through the Broadway Curve is a nightmare during the week. East Valley people have a TON of incentive to park & ride and avoid that ugly stretch of freeway-turned-parkinglot during their commute.

2. As far as West and North valley people go, by the time you get to Bethany Home, you might as well drive to your destination. The only reason you wouldn't would be if you had to pay for parking. If that were the case, Central/Cmlbk seems like the safest place on the line.

As far as why total numbers are down, didn't we read that they over-built the park & rides? Also, our bus system, while not great, features a ton of Park & Rides in other parts of the valley. The real question when looking at LRT numbers compared to park & ride numbers is "Have you seen an increase in the suburban park & rides?" The ones on 101 & Glendale or 101 & 19th Ave seem like they would see huge spikes in numbers over the ones around Christown.

Finally, and MOST IMPORTANT:
So I got home from work and had a package in my mail box. Looked at it and it was from the United Way. Thought it was odd. Opened it up and it was a signed Todd McFarlane Light Rail shirt from the grand opening. I guess I won the raffle. Go me! For my next trick - the lottery.

[Classical in Phoenix]

I rode light rail to the Dback game last night, then stopped off at FF on the way back to my office at Osborn and Central. Was able to get to the game and FF real easy. I left FF and lined up at the Roosevelt stop at 10:12, the train didn't arrive until 10:40. There were a ton of people waiting by the time the train got there and the cars were already standing room only. I know it was a busy night with the Dbacks, Suns and FF, but it looks like Metro could run trains more frequent on such a night. Although, the line running south at that point seemed to be on a better schedule as three trains passed while we were waiting for our one.

[Tempe_Duck]

They do exist! They do exist!

I just saw a 3 car train heading westbound from the Tempe Transit Station. Couldn't get a picture before the trail go to far away.

[pbenjamin]

It would have made some sense to have rolled some of these 3 car trains out for yesterday's sold-out Diamondbacks opener, but they did not, at least not the trains that I saw or rode. They WERE however testing "the next westbound train arrives in 2 minutes" at the Encanto stop with both audio and electric signage.

[HX_Guy]

And were the announcements accurate?

[Leo the Dog]

^^^It was quite accurate for me. I heard two messages while waiting for the train. The first message said the next train would arrive in 5 minutes. Then the 2nd message said the next train would arrive in one minute, so I looked down the tracks and sure enough it was about 250 yards away.

They also repeat the message in Spanish and then scroll the message on the electronic displays. Very cool and much needed.

[Vicelord John]

spanish?

I thinnk im done with valley metro

[PHX31]

I don't think the announcements are necessary. Scroll them on the boards... that's enough.

[glynnjamin]

I don't think the announcements are necessary. Scroll them on the boards... that's enough.

I hate to be one of those people but...

what if you are blind? or, worse, what if you are blind and mexican??? Then what do you do?

[PHX31]

I get you... but, what if you're Helen Keller? We should have portable scrolling braille machines.

[Buckeye Native 001]

I seen it! It was gray colored and slender like. It come outta the east right yonder. The dog was hollerin up a storm an' I black out. When I come to it done left an' I think they took the dog. Damn if'n I didn't love that dog.

Okay.

[Vicelord John]

I hate to be one of those people but...

what if you are blind? or, worse, what if you are blind and mexican??? Then what do you do?

what if you have a urinary tract problem? There should be portable toilets on the trains.

Shit, where do you draw the line?

Whatever happened to the idea that if you can't do something, you don't do it?

If I go to France, I'll learn to speak freaking french. I don't expect a whole country to cater to me just because I don't want to learn the language that is predominantly used there.

And whomever just called me white trash that was uncalled for. I never called you a spick or a fag, or anything else for that matter. I don't really care, just making a point.

[mwadswor]

I hate to be one of those people but...

what if you are blind? or, worse, what if you are blind and mexican??? Then what do you do?

It would seem simpler to both not annoy people and fulfill ADA requirements if there was a button somewhere on the platform that could be pushed to make the audio announcement run. Sure, the logical ones among us might ask how a blind person will find the button, but if it's in a uniform location it probably wouldn't be that hard to learn considering that these blind people did somehow already learn where the train station and fare machines are. The system could have a timer in it that limits the audio announcement to every few minutes to keep small children (or other annoying people) from just pushing it over and over again and annoying others.

[glynnjamin]

Not that I agree with the spanish thing...I don't, but I do think we are required by ADA to offer reasonable accommodations for blind people. Not sure what that entails.

On that note, I was at the Subway @ Cronkite a couple weeks ago and this old guy who used a blind person walking stick and who had those wicked dark old people glasses on came up to us and was talking to us. Quite a spry man. He was chatting away with us without missing a beat and then he said "Can you guess what my disability is?" and we were like...um...you're blind, dummy. And he pulls out this dog-tag type thing that says he is deaf in both ears. He goes on to tell us about how he has just learned to adapt over the years. He has narrow tunnel vision and makes the best with what he has. The guy was 89! It was nuts. I should have gotten his name but he was telling me that he loves the LRT and that it makes it a lot easier for him to get around but that there are annoying PHX shits that won't vacate their seats for him.

Anyways, point of the story, this guy can't hear and can't see but makes due the best he can. Not saying that I could do it; I probably couldn't. But ya, I agree with John, if you can't do something - you can't do it. Stop making everyone else accommodate you.

Nothing about this is racist. It doesn't have anything to do with race. It has to do with using public money to reproduce everything in this state into two languages. It is a huge waste of our money and time. We don't print things in Japanese, Chinese, Russian, Hebrew, Arabic, or any other language even though people who use those languages live here. It isn't about Mexicans. It is about people who speak Spanish and refuse to learn English. As someone who works in a high school, I can tell you that the English Language Learners who come from Spanish speaking homes progress much slower than the ones who come from homes where the family tries to speak English. Immersion is the best method. You can't spend 6 hours at school immersed in English and then 18 hours surrounded by Spanish and expect to make any progress. The reality is that these kids need to know English if they are going to get good jobs and achieve that better life that their parents wanted for them when they came here.

[mwadswor]

If I go to France, I'll learn to speak freaking french. I don't expect a whole country to cater to me just because I don't want to learn the language that is predominantly used there.

I could be wrong, but I think learning to see is a bit different from learning French.

[mwadswor]

It has to do with using public money to reproduce everything in this state into two languages. It is a huge waste of our money and time. We don't print things in Japanese, Chinese, Russian, Hebrew, Arabic, or any other language even though people who use those languages live here.

Spanish is the only non-English language with a significant number of speakers in Phoenix, if you were to go to LA or NY you would see that their transit systems have announcements in Japanese, Chinese, Russian, Hebrew, Arabic, etc. I don't care what you or John say about how you would learn French to go to France, I challenge you to go anywhere in the world and I bet you that their transit systems have some announcements in English or at least English on the transit maps. I'm sure there are some that don't, but most do. It's not about teaching people to learn English, its about making the system accessible to as many people as possible. Let's face it, a significant percentage of the carless who will ride the system are Spanish speakers, whether or not they can speak English too, and it only makes sense to make it convenient for as many as possible. How much can it possibly cost to record announcements in two languages? It certainly doesn't bother me to hear other languages, and anyone who thinks that Phoenix can be a one language world class city needs to take a trip to any city that they consider world class to start counting how many languages they hear on the streets and see on government documents. Two languages is nothing.

That being said, I thought that Arizona was legally an English only state and public moneys weren't supposed to be used to print forms (which presumably would include recording announcements) in any other language. As much as I disagree with that, how does Valley Metro get around that to spend money on creating Spanish announcements? Or am I misinterpreting the law.

[Vicelord John]

I could be wrong, but I think learning to see is a bit different from learning French.

Obviously you missed my point, which was regarding the Spanish language that our train announcements are making.

And there is no "official" language in Arizona or United States, but there is one that is spoken and accepted. I just hate the attitude that everyone else should change their behavior or belief system because you are too lazy to adapt to the place you immigrated to.

My great grandparents immigrated to this country back in the 1920's and were prompt to learn english, immerse themselves in the culture, and become part of the country they are living in.

[Jsmscaleros]

Obviously you missed my point, which was regarding the Spanish language that our train announcements are making.

And there is no "official" language in Arizona or United States, but there is one that is spoken and accepted. I just hate the attitude that everyone else should change their behavior or belief system because you are too lazy to adapt to the place you immigrated to.

My great grandparents immigrated to this country back in the 1920's and were prompt to learn english, immerse themselves in the culture, and become part of the country they are living in.

That's a swell idea, but who's fault is it then for catering to immigrants and essentially making it easier for them to continue to speak Spanish rather than learn English?

Mexican immigrants do not program the train announcements, they didn't create Food City, they don't make sure voting can be done in Spanish or English, and they probably would prefer not to be commiserating in low-rent districts.

...and by the way, if you think most Americans would be ANY different if our contexts were reversed, guess again. When I was living in Japan, I made few friends from the states because the vast majority of them preferred to cluster together so they can enjoy Japanese culture yet speak English at the same time. They formed clubs, sports teams, worked jobs that allowed them to speak English, and essentially had no interest in cultural assimilation.

Despite the fact that my goal was cultural immersion, I acknowledge that most people like what is familiar. If we really had a problem with latinos speaking Spanish, why do we design our system to accommodate that?

The truth is largely because if they learned to speak English, they wouldn't be stuck doing the grunt work they are now and there are a whole lot of people in this state that would not like to see that change.

[scottkag]

Regarding Spanish language announcements - I'm under the impression it has to do with something called "The Civil Rights Act of 1964", AKA Title VI. Read if you must:

http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/cor/coord/titlevi.php

[glynnjamin]

Regarding Spanish language announcements - I'm under the impression it has to do with something called "The Civil Rights Act of 1964", AKA Title VI. Read if you must:

http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/cor/coord/titlevi.php

I don't see how having English-only announcements violates Mexicans' civil rights. Please explain. We do not offer public education in Spanish yet we receive federal funds. The airport does not do announcements in Spanish yet they receive federal funds. I think your understanding of the Civil Rights Act is off a bit. You are not discriminating against a group by not providing announcements in Spanish...they can still board the train and have access just like everyone else. Now if you had to speak English in order for the train doors to open, that would be a different case.

[Vicelord John]

That's a swell idea, but who's fault is it then for catering to immigrants and essentially making it easier for them to continue to speak Spanish rather than learn English?


That is exactly my point.

[NIXPHX77]

It would have made some sense to have rolled some of these 3 car trains out for yesterday's sold-out Diamondbacks opener, but they did not, at least not the trains that I saw or rode.
Valley Metro may have started that plan a day late, as Tuesday eve i saw a 3 car train headed south down first ave at about 6 pm.

[Leo the Dog]

Hey guys, I totally agree with the Spanish announcements. How is informing the majority of the population a bad thing? By passing along information in 2 languages, they have just helped out 99% of the passengers that ride ValleyMetro.

Every world class city has multi-lingual communities. Phoenix should embrace theirs, like many other cities do, such as, Miami. We are definitely not as cosmopolitan as Miami, but I think you get the point.

If anything, I think this helps non-English speakers learn the language better. I know it helped me when I was taking Spanish classes to read the Spanish phrase then to see it in English too.

[Vicelord John]

learn english or get out.

I would expect the Chinese to tell me to learn their language if I went to China. I wouldn't try to get all of Shanghai to speak english just because I'm lazy.

What a joke.

[HooverDam]

Lets just have all Light Rail announcements done in Esperanto, then we can all be happy.

From: http://www.azcentral.com/news/election/azelections/articles/2009/04/09/20090409azpirg-trans0409-ON.html

Action group: Make mass transit a bigger priority
15 comments by Sean Holstege - Apr. 9, 2009 11:16 AM
The Arizona Republic
The Arizona Public Interest Research Group is urging the state to invest heavily in mass transit and to change how the state and country pay for all forms of transportation.

In a report released Thursday, the public action group noted that transit ridership rose faster than car travel over the last decade. The group highlighted 10 transit projects it says will propel Arizona to the "new frontier."

Among the priorities PIRG listed for Maricopa County are light rail extensions to Glendale and west along Interstate 10, plus a commuter rail line between Phoenix and Wickenburg. The group also calls for passenger rail service between Phoenix and Tucson.

All of those projects are in early stages of planning.

Researchers at PIRG also called for new taxes to support transit. It said revenue from taxes would be stable, encourage transit and not swing with changes in population or the economy. In this recession, a sharp drop in sales tax has hurt transit systems. Nationally, the buying power of the gas tax as steadily declined for decades.

PIRG also called on Congress to rethink priorities when it reauthorizes the federal transportation bill this fall.

For years, transportation officials have acknowledged the need for new forms of revenue.

The full report is available at www.arizonapirg.org.

[arkhitektor]

I can understand having the train signs/announcements in 2 languages. Even in Shanghai, you'll find things posted in Chinese and English.

Here's something I don't understand.
The school I go to (Weber State) is adding signage in Spanish and English all about campus. Riding a train is one thing, but if you can't even find the bookstore without directions in Spanish, you probably don't belong at an American University.

[trigirdbers]

Don't think the ADA says anything about audio announcements. DC metro only has visual ones (at least for time).

[Tfom]

Maybe metro is attempting to improve the image that our city and state are run by backwards, racist, gun lovers like our beloved sheriff. Or maybe they would like the train to be friendly to out of town travelers, many who are possibly spanish speaking. But let's forget that. we should stop announcements in any other language and put up more cameras since we don't have enough in this state. That'll make people want to come back.

[Vicelord John]

you know tfom, I consider myself both very liberal, and in usual agreement with your statments, but sir what you just said has to be the most asinine thing I have ever heard.

Not catering to the immigrants who should be learning OUR culture makes us racist gun toters? How about the fact that them wanting to come here and make us like their homeland but with employment makes them douchebags?

but no, you're right, we should bend over and let them give it to us. I mean, it's not like they need us, right?

[HX_Guy]

Spanish is an international language...it's not like we're catering to just people south of the border.

Are you just as offended when you see things in English in other non-English speaking countries?

[Jsmscaleros]

Arpaio must be smiling; his plan has worked perfectly. As soon as white Arizonans hear Spanish it sounds like rusty nails on a chalk board to them.

[BA744PHX]

Well it seems some people in here are not well traveled both France and Brazil where I've been recently you hear and see signs in English everywhere more then what it should be. So god forbid we have spanish in our train system!!!

[glynnjamin]

Look, just because other countries use dual languages doesn't mean we should have to. I can understand places that rely on heavy American tourism putting signs in English because it is good for business. It is like Pizza Patron accepting pesos. If it will get you more business, why not?

I do, however, think the jib-jab spanish that they pipe over the PA systems is pretty pointless though. Are they NOT going to ride the LRT because the announcements are in English only? They seem to ride the bus just fine. Public projects paid with public funds should be limited to one language simply for the cost. Sure it doesn't cost anything to record the voice in spanish but then they will want signs. Are they going to want the speed limit signs in KMH too?

I'm with John here, I'm liberal, but the waste of money that I see in putting everything in another language makes me want to vote Republican. If I go to China, Brazil, or France - I want to feel like I am in those places. If everything is in English, why bother even going?

[PHX31]

Arpaio must be smiling; his plan has worked perfectly. As soon as white Arizonans hear Spanish it sounds like rusty nails on a chalk board to them.


I'm really out of this arguement... but statements like these always seem to come out and are the most annoying. This is just reverse racism.... or just stereotypically lumping all "white [people]" into one bullshit category. Really, no matter who you are, you're racist.

[KEVINphx]

This conversation has really degenerated into this shitty argument? Not enough really going on with transit in the Valley I suppose.

Why don't we open a thread concerning bilingualism in the skybar, vote where your mouth is and drop this BS?

[Vicelord John]

Are you just as offended when you see things in English in other non-English speaking countries?

yes. I thought I made that clear.

[glynnjamin]

So on that note, took the LRT to Fez for Happy Hour last night. Got on at about 10 to 6 from Central Station. Got seats for like the first time ever. Wasn't too packed but it was busy. No announcements at any of the stops. No "Train arriving in 10minutes" things at the station either. Ran pretty smooth with only a couple red lights. The drunken ride back was brilliant and made me really appriciate that we have decent public transit. It was freakin 1030 before I knew it though...had I not bothered to check, I might have missed the damn thing. 11 is so early!

The only complaint - the bike racks. Really? This is the best the Japanese could design? I already know that my cruiser's fat tires won't fit on the little spur/hook but watching some people try and navigate that narrow car with a bike without bashing someone in the head was a riot. Seemed like most bike riders would help other riders when they had to put their bikes up. Some stuck out into the walkway. Some would sway when the car would stop. It just looked like a disaster waiting to happen. There were about 10 bikes on the car we were in and it just felt like that "bike car" was too small and too poorly designed for American bikes. In a city like Phoenix where everything is spread out, using a bike to bridge the gap between the station and your destination is almost a necessity. I would hope that in the future, this is redesigned.

[Vicelord John]

I want to take one of my motorcycles on the train and be like "what??? they told me bikes were allowed."

I don't think I'd ever be able to actually get away with taking a 400lb bike on the train platform though.

[HX_Guy]

yes. I thought I made that clear.

Fair enough.

[digital phoenix]

Hmmmm.... let's get back to real transit developments, eh?

[Jsmscaleros]

I'm really out of this arguement... but statements like these always seem to come out and are the most annoying. This is just reverse racism.... or just stereotypically lumping all "white [people]" into one bullshit category. Really, no matter who you are, you're racist.

I hope calling me a racist was a joke, because that's what my comment was.

So lighten up, guy. I honestly don't give a flying f**k what language they use on the LRT. I speak both, so it makes no difference to me. Why not make it Pig Latin?

What I was getting at was that because illegal immigration has become such a hot-button issue, even hearing Spanish in public places has become an alarm to some.

Case in point: I went to AZ Mills a few weeks ago and, if any of you ever go there, you'd know that the welcome announcement when you pass through any entrance is in both English and Spanish.

I followed a couple through the door and, as if they didn't hear the English announcement at all (which does come first, after all), commented: "What? Blah blah blah - I thought we were in f**king America!"

[CANUC]

Jsmscaleros, what some on this board don’t understand is that things are done for a reason. First who ever said that only cities that are large tourist destinations should use multi-language signs must not remember what is one of Phoenix’s major industries is tourism. The dual language announcements at Arizona Mills were intentional from the malls inception. Due to its location it was heavily advertised to appeal to Mexican tourist as a destination point. There was even a heavy push in the Tucson market and Sonora, Mexico advertising its opening. The intent was to attempt to capture some the tourist dollars that were by passing Phoenix and heading to Vegas. The same applies to Valley Metro, you don’t put up signs just to play nice. You have to have your head in the sand if that’s what you think. Look, its called market research. No one is going to spend a single penny unless they think the cost is warranted. I was in South Korea and trust me they understand the need to cater to English speakers. Not once did I have any trouble finding my way around or getting services. The motivation is called money.

[Don B.]

Every time I hear or see Spanish, I rejoice in Arizona's diversity and the ability of people in the United States to live their lives without the government dictating who you should worship, what language you speak, etc. There's nothing wrong with bilingual accommodations for people. Fully 40% of Arizona's population is Hispanic, and I think something like 15% of the population speaks Spanish. People that are allegedly bothered by hearing or seeing Spanish phrases need to grow up and get out in the world more often.

It should be noted that land we call Arizona today originally belonged to Mexico. We as a nation beat down Mexico in the Mexican-American war of 1846 to 1848 and forcibly took the land that is now Arizona from them (north of the Gila River). In fact, not including the loss of Texas, Mexico lost 55% of her territory to the United States, in exchange for the paltry sum of $450 million in today's dollars. In 1853, as part of the Gadsden purchase, we paid Mexico another pittance for the land south of the Gila. Given that we are, in essence, living on blood land, the least we can do is be a little more respectful to the human beings who live south of us in Mexico, and everywhere else for that matter.

--don