Metro Phoenix Transit/Transportation Developments

[exit2lef]

I also interpreted his words in that way, which would shortcut away from Downtown Gilbert. It is a shame, because Downtown Gilbert would probably greatly benefit from it, and (at least in the restaurant scene) is becoming a cool place to go to.



I'm sure it's at least partially wishful thinking on my part, but when Smith mentioned it would go to US60 via Gilbert Rd, that opened two possibilities in my mind: Keep going along the freeway alignment toward Superstition Springs or follow a route through Gilbert on the way to Gateway Airport. I think the final decision might hinge on what level of interest Gilbert shows in rail transit. Smith seems genuinely dedicated to regional cooperation, so if a neighboring community wants to cooperate on a logical route, I wouldn't rule out that possibility.

[Leo the Dog]

I would actually be in favor of light rail aligning with the 60 east of Gilbert rd. imagine how slow it would be if it went through DT Gilbert!? SD's green line through mission valley parallels the 8 frwy with elevated track, below grade, and tunnel. It is fast and efficient and highly visible to commuters stuck in traffic on the 8. It's light rail, but it doesn't interact with traffic at all and doesn't have to wait for traffic lights.

Gilbert could easily build a street car spur to connect their DT with light rail at the 60. Gilbert isn't suffering from urban blight and decay and wouldn't need a LR corridor built through their business district.

[combusean]

I just don't see Gilbert getting on the mass transit background enough to wrestle an extension of the line from Mesa to connect their paltry afterthought of a downtown and then have it carry on back through to Mesa to connect to the airport. The existing LINK bus's terminus is at Superstition Springs, Power Rd and the airport is just a zig south at that point and that's very likely the path they will follow.

I'd rather a local streetcar, better scaled for the 25 MPH bottleneck on Gilbert Rd eventually connect to the light rail. The end-to-end times on the line are going to be unreal enough without that 25 MPH route.

[nickw252]

PHOENIX -- The Arizona Department of Transportation is looking at options for creating a passenger rail corridor or dedicated bus line between Arizona's two biggest cities -- Phoenix and Tucson -- the agency wants your input.

ADOT says the stretch of Interstate 10 between Phoenix and Tucson is the most-traveled corridor in the state. With Arizona's ever-expanding population, the freeway likely will not be able to accommodate the amount of traffic the future will bring.

"Previous studies have shown that I-10, even with additional lanes, is not sufficient to meet the travel demand in the future," reads ADOT's 16-page information booklet.

Right now, most drivers can make a one-way trip -- about 115 miles -- in about 90 or so minutes. With a projected population of 12 million in Phoenix, Tucson and cities in between by 2050, that trip could take nearly six hours.

As part of a study that began last year and is slated to wrap up in late 2013, ADOT developed several options -- six rail plans and one dedicated bus line.

Each option makes different stops, runs at different speeds and takes different amounts of time for an end-to-end trip. None of the plans is set in stone; each is subject to revision and fine-tune. They simply are a place to begin.

Now that it has those seven potential plans in place, ADOT you wants you to weigh in.

Based on public input and further technical analysis of the seven possibilities, ADOT will hone in on two or three options by early 2013.
At this point, the project is purely hypothetical. There is no funding and no concrete timeline.

If it is determined that there is a viable option, ADOT will launch further planning, including environmental studies and development activities before any construction is considered.

The online comment process involves watching a short video (less than three minutes), reading the information booklet and completing a short questionnaire. Public participation will be open until Dec. 15.

In addition to accepting public input online, ADOT is also hosting a series of in-person events at several locations.

For more information about ADOT’s Passenger Rail Corridor Study, visit www.azdot.gov/passengerrail.


http://www.azfamily.com/traffic/Do-you-want-train-service-between-Phoenix-and-Tucson-Tell-ADOT-174411641.html

[nickw252]

I saw this unfortunate article yesterday full of half-truths and misleading statements.

Landscape architects may not be able to save the planet, but they have helped rescue a city or two, or at least, the odd neighbourhood.

So when 5,000 practitioners gathered recently for their annual conference in — of all places — Phoenix, Ariz., the optimism was palpable. The talk was all about reclaiming abandoned industrial sites, revitalizing waterfronts and swale technology.

But the real story was unfolding outside, where the deserted streets of Phoenix mocked the landscapists’ every word. Whatever else it may be, this desert community stands as a powerful symbol of everything that’s gone wrong in North American city-building in the post-war period.

Certainly Phoenix’s plight has nothing to do with lack of effort; the downtown is awash in landscape architecture, pharaonic architecture and ambitious public art, but there’s nobody there to enjoy the show.

The place is almost entirely deserted. Even the new LRT hums up and down the street with barely a passenger.

The heat obviously has something to do with it, but the issues go beyond that. Though there’s plenty of there there, it doesn’t add up to much. Phoenix is a city of isolated buildings, private spaces and (empty) parking lots connected by fast-moving multi-lane roads.

It feels as if every project here was conceived in a vacuum; nothing is aware of anything else — most critically, its neighbours. To make things worse, there’s very little that actually addresses the street, or rather, the sidewalk. The planning model in Phoenix seems to be based on the expectation that every shop and restaurant should be hidden in some mall, typically a large, windowless structure whose entrance has been set back behind one corner or another.

Because the only real way to get around is by car, every mall — no, every building — must have a full complement of parking spaces. At any given moment, one imagines the entire vehicular population of Phoenix could be accommodated several times over.

This should come as no surprise; locals drive from place to another, rarely having to interact with the larger community. Indeed, perhaps the most interesting thing about Phoenix is that it really isn’t a city, except in the most technical sense. It’s little more than an accumulation of buildings, spaces and roads contained within a municipal boundary, more a legal creation than civic entity.

The notion of the city as a place that begins where these other factors leave off has no relevance here. The idea that the city is a critical mass of people and activity, a dynamic system, both natural and human, has been lost in a place that doesn’t add up to more than the sum of its parts.

In Phoenix, the usual urban benefits of proximity, compactness and diversity have been chucked for some imagined ideal of convenience.

Too bad the 20th century is over. And with it the ruinous assumptions that gave us the Phoenix we know today. In a world where less will be a lot more, a city like this doesn’t stand a chance. Just living in a place sitting in the middle of a desert requires reserves of energy that simply aren’t sustainable in an age of limited resources and climate change. As Torontonians are finding out, it costs more to stay cool than it does to stay warm.

What will have become of a Phoenix in, say, 50 or 100 years, one can only wonder. It has all the disadvantages of a Toronto, and none of the advantages. The prospects don’t look good.

Unlike its namesake, it’s doubtful this bird could ever rise from its own ashes.

Christopher Hume can be reached at chume@thestar.ca

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/1271866--hume-can-phoenix-rise-from-the-car-era-s-ashes

He has some good ideas but unfortunately his impression of Phoenix is wrong. It makes me wonder if he even visited the city.

The light-rail has vastly exceeded ridership expectations and is frequently busy. Either he was looking at a train on a Sunday at 10 PM when any metro system would be deserted, or he just made that up. Same with downtown being completely deserted.

As far as it being cheaper to heat a home than to cool one, he is wrong. First, you have to raise the temperature much more in a Toronto winter than you have to lower the temperature when cooling a home in a Phoenix summer. Second, there are green and energy efficient ways of cooling that aren't available for heating, such as using a swamp cooler or putting solar panels on your home.

Although he makes good points about Phoenix buildings being inward facing and each one having its own parking lot, he needs to stick to facts.

[exit2lef]

I saw this unfortunate article yesterday full of half-truths and misleading statements.



http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/1271866--hume-can-phoenix-rise-from-the-car-era-s-ashes

He has some good ideas but unfortunately his impression of Phoenix is wrong. It makes me wonder if he even visited the city.

The light-rail has vastly exceeded ridership expectations and is frequently busy. Either he was looking at a train on a Sunday at 10 PM when any metro system would be deserted, or he just made that up. Same with downtown being completely deserted.

As far as it being cheaper to heat a home than to cool one, he is wrong. First, you have to raise the temperature much more in a Toronto winter than you have to lower the temperature when cooling a home in a Phoenix summer. Second, there are green and energy efficient ways of cooling that aren't available for heating, such as using a swamp cooler or putting solar panels on your home.

Although he makes good points about Phoenix buildings being inward facing and each one having its own parking lot, he needs to stick to facts.

I saw that article too. It's rubbish, but unfortunately there's no opportunity to comment in rebuttal.

[Arquitect]

I saw this unfortunate article yesterday full of half-truths and misleading statements.



http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/1271866--hume-can-phoenix-rise-from-the-car-era-s-ashes

He has some good ideas but unfortunately his impression of Phoenix is wrong. It makes me wonder if he even visited the city.

The light-rail has vastly exceeded ridership expectations and is frequently busy. Either he was looking at a train on a Sunday at 10 PM when any metro system would be deserted, or he just made that up. Same with downtown being completely deserted.

As far as it being cheaper to heat a home than to cool one, he is wrong. First, you have to raise the temperature much more in a Toronto winter than you have to lower the temperature when cooling a home in a Phoenix summer. Second, there are green and energy efficient ways of cooling that aren't available for heating, such as using a swamp cooler or putting solar panels on your home.

Although he makes good points about Phoenix buildings being inward facing and each one having its own parking lot, he needs to stick to facts.


Funny, i rode the lighrail to that confrence, and it was pretty busy both on the way there and on my way back to tempe.

As for cooling versus heating. Technically, it does cost more too cool a space than it does toheat it. Wether it costs more to cool phoenix than to heat toronto, i can't really say. There are passive ways to cool spaces, but many of them aren't used (mostly because of poor design, or lack of interest, not because of effectiveness). But there is a point where AC is the only way to get thevtemperature cool enough for everyones comfort zone. If we all had solar panels on top of our houses, this could be mitigated, but as we all know, we aren't really there yet.

The article pretty much explains the pgoenix of 20 to 10 years ago to a t though. And we are still suffering through some of those things. I am mostly talking about the lack of connectivity, too much parking, and the comment about buildings in a vacuum. We are doing a lot better now. Creating much better spaces, but it will take a lot more to get the notion of Phoenix as a sprawling unsustainable monster to disappear.

[N830MH]

http://www.azcentral.com/community/mesa/articles/20121011mesa-got-fast-track-light-rail.html#protected

Soon, Metro Light rail to be approved sometime in late-2012 for extended to Gilbert Rd. They will start construction sometime in late-2014 and it will be completion sometime in year of 2017.

[combusean]

Interstate 11 Public Meeting Set for Oct. 23
Opportunity for the public to provide input in proposed new highway


The Arizona Department of Transportation, in cooperation with the Nevada Department of Transportation, will hold a public meeting on Oct. 23 to solicit input on the proposed Interstate 11, a corridor pursued by Governor Jan Brewer to create a stronger regional connection between Phoenix and Las Vegas.

The meeting will be held from 6 p.m. to 8 p.m. (formal presentation at 6:30 p.m.) Oct. 23 at the Burton Barr Central Library, 1221 North Central Avenue in Phoenix.

While an exact alignment for I-11 will be determined through extensive future engineering and environmental studies, work began this summer to examine a connection between Phoenix and Las Vegas, with the potential to extend north towards Canada and south to the Mexico border, creating a new corridor through the Intermountain West. Such a corridor would provide a new connection for communities, major trade hubs, existing and future domestic and international deep-water ports, as well as intersecting transcontinental roadways and railroad corridors. The I-11 corridor could also be paired with rail and other infrastructure components, such as energy and telecommunications, to meet the region's needs.

This public meeting will provide the public with an opportunity to provide formal comments about the concept at these early stages of study. More information is also available at www.i11study.com.

I-11 has been a cornerstone of the Governor’s jobs and economic development agenda that examines current and future transportation and trade infrastructure needs to improve Arizona’s competitiveness in a global marketplace.

Currently, ADOT and the Nevada Department of Transportation are engaged in a $2.5 million study of the I-11 and Intermountain West corridor. This two-year study is a high-level overview of the potential interstate corridor and will be the foundation for subsequent environmental studies that may be required to develop the corridor.

Phoenix and Las Vegas remain the largest cities in the nation not linked by an interstate highway corridor. The combined population of Phoenix, Tucson, Las Vegas and Reno was less than 700,000 when the Federal Aid Highway Act of 1956 was enacted. Today, the combined population of these cities is 8 million and is expected to grow even further, prompting the need for better surface transportation connections to accommodate not only the travel demand between these metropolitan areas, but also improved mobility for freight shipments throughout the Intermountain West and inland portions of the West Coast.

In addition to ADOT and the Nevada Department of Transportation, the Maricopa Association of Governments, Regional Transportation Commission of Southern Nevada, Federal Highway Administration and Federal Railroad Administration are partners in this study.

Funding to construct a potential I-11 corridor has not been identified.

[Arquitect]

Interstate 11 Public Meeting Set for Oct. 23
Opportunity for the public to provide input in proposed new highway

I always wondered why there wasn't a interstate connecting the two cities. I think it is a good idea, although if i could, i would like to force adot to develop a high speed rail line along the highway. With las vegas connecting to CA's high speed rail, this would be a great opportunity to get Phoenix involved. Plus, the ideavof riding a train into vegas seems way more appealing to me than having to drive there.

[nickw252]

http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/local/youtube_0203d8ec-1997-11e2-8412-0019bb2963f4.html

[plinko]

Interstate 11 Public Meeting Set for Oct. 23
Opportunity for the public to provide input in proposed new highway

This would be about the ONLY new interstate highway that I would support nationwide. It's a heavily traveled corridor that definitely needs to be upgraded.

Does anybody know if the new bridge at Hoover Dam was built to minimum interstate standards?

[DevilsRider]

Does anybody know if the new bridge at Hoover Dam was built to minimum interstate standards?

I'm 95% sure the bridge and its approaches are, as they've been pursuing an interstate designation for some time. I believe it loses interstate standards approaching the Hacienda Hotel west of the Dam, and about half an hour east of the Dam on the other side.

A majority of the corridor has been widened to 4 lane divided highway, and all new construction is being built to interstate highway standards right now (I drive it a few times a year, and always get excited when a new stretch opens). Generally, I don't like the idea of building new freeways, but this corridor is so heavily traveled by tourists and truck traffic that the non-divided portions are incredibly unsafe, especially at night. If ever a corridor needed this kind of investment (and yes, ideally with a rail alternative running alongside), it's this one.

There's just a lot of gaps still even where it remains 2 lanes each direction (Wikiup, Wickenburg, the Kingman stretch to I-40, etc), and there's a few stretches where it's 2 lanes, non-divided, which is terrifying when trucks are bearing down from the other direction and impatient drivers are recklessly speeding past them and heading directly towards you in your lane before swerving back with little time to spare.

[Don B.]

^ Agreed, and ADOT has done a good job with the limited dollars they do have to upgrade a number of those rural one-lane-in-each-direction state highways to something resembling more of an interstate, with two lanes in each direction, even if not totally limited access. Driving to Payson and Prescott from Phoenix when I first moved here in 1993 involved a lot of driving white-knuckled on narrow two-lane highways, risking life, limb and the pursuit of happiness to get from point A to point B.

[pbenjamin]

While an exact alignment for I-11 will be determined through extensive future engineering and environmental studies, work began this summer to examine a connection between Phoenix and Las Vegas, with the potential to extend north towards Canada and south to the Mexico border, creating a new corridor through the Intermountain West.

I can maybe see the need for a Phoenix-Las Vegas freeway (although the times when I have been forced to go up there I didn't see what I thought of as enough traffic to justify) but I have no idea why anyone would think that a new path from Phoenix to the border is necessary. It would seem like I-10 to I-19 would work just fine.

[Arquitect]

I can maybe see the need for a Phoenix-Las Vegas freeway (although the times when I have been forced to go up there I didn't see what I thought of as enough traffic to justify) but I have no idea why anyone would think that a new path from Phoenix to the border is necessary. It would seem like I-10 to I-19 would work just fine.

There are definitely some times that are worse than others. From my experience, driving there on a Friday night can get pretty intense.

And it is true, i19 conects with the only major commercial corridor from Mexico. The resst of the border towns in Sonora are not that large, so it would be a great waste of money.

[PhxER]

PBS talks about the Commuter Rail line between Phoenix and Tucson.

lbLL7Fj2u9E

[HooverDam]

What does everyone here think of the various routes from PHX to Tucson?

In an unusual twist for me, I don't really have a strong opinion on which one is best. Though Im sure with more thought I'll develop one that I like most.

First lets look at the options that are totally lame in my opinion and should be dismissed:

BLUE:
http://www.azdot.gov/passengerrail/pdf/Blue_Alternative.pdf

This is the bus alternative. No on is going to ride a bus to Tucson. The only reason ADOT has this plan listed is because they have to for Federal requirements study other modes, and also study what would happen if they do nothing at all as Sean Holstege said in the video.

RED:

http://www.azdot.gov/passengerrail/pdf/Red_Alternative.pdf

I don't like how this one dog legs way out of the way to Maricopa. I understand that the thinking is to connect to Amtrak in Maricpa. I don't want to connect to Amtrak in Maricopa, I want to connect to Amtrak at Union Station in Downtown PHX.

I think if Phoenix/AZ develops a fairly robust LRT, Commuter Rail and InterCity rail program, Amtrak would feel more pressure to make a natural connection to those systems.

Interesting that the 2 routes to Tucson that I really dislike are UofA colors.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So with those 2 options eliminated the question becomes: Do we try to get from Downtown PHX to Downtown Tucson as fast as humanly possible? Or do we leave PHX via the East Valley to scoop up more passengers, connect to Williams-Gateway and to use this intercity rail as a 2 birds with 1 stone system that also acts as Commuter Rail?

I think my preference is to go out through the East Valley for a few reasons. I like the idea of being able to connect to Downtown Mesa and to Gateway Airport. Growing Gateway into a true reliever airport seems like it would be greatly helped by rail access.

Additionally if growth is going to happen in the "Sun Corridor" through Pinal County (going from the SE Valley, wrapping around the Gila Indian Res) a possible rail line could help promote more sustainable growth patterns in that area. Of course no development in that area would be best, but that seems unrealistic to hope for. If Pinal County could be pressured into adopting New Urbanist sort of zoning laws for that whole corridor it would be great.

PURPLE

http://www.azdot.gov/passengerrail/pdf/Purple_Alternative.pdf
It's not one of the fastest routes, but it also doesn't connect to Williams Gateway or promote much of a sustainable growth corridor.

YELLOW
http://www.azdot.gov/passengerrail/pdf/Yellow_Alternative.pdf

Nothing terribly wrong with this route in terms of its alignment (though I would like it to go to Gateway) but if you read the times on the lower left this route is very slow compared to the others. I'm not sure if that just has to do with the train tracks its using or what, but it seems too slow.

TEAL
http://www.azdot.gov/passengerrail/pdf/Teal_Alternative.pdf

The Teal route is one I could live with. I like that it more directly connects w/ Downtown Mesa. On the other hand, it misses Williams Gateway directly.

GREEN
http://www.azdot.gov/passengerrail/pdf/Green_Alternative.pdf

The Green route is by far the fastest, but it misses the entire East Valley. Maybe thats OK if we knew for sure MAG would be offering Commuter Rail into the East Valley, and one could connect to that via Union Station. But I feel worried that may or may not happen, so I want to make sure those connections happen.

Plus its not that much faster than some other routes.

So after all that rambling, I think this is my favorite route:

ORANGE
http://www.azdot.gov/passengerrail/pdf/Orange_Alternative.pdf

It doesn't connect directly to Downtown Mesa, which is a slight minus for me. But it does show the idea of some kind of high speed line connecting Mesa and Chandler with the Intercity/Commuter Rail. Perhaps a Modern Streetcar line on Country Club/Arizona Ave, connecting into the LRT line in Mesa and connecting Downtown Chandler.

Plus this route also shows the idea of some kind of transit corridor along Chandler Blvd/Williams Field Rd which we've long discussed here. That would also likely connect Ahwatukee to the line along Chandler Blvd.

One thing it doesn't show, which would seem sensible to me is a N/S high speed transit (probably Modern Streetcar) line along Gilbert Rd. Starting from the North it would connect w/ the Main LRT line at Gilbert and Main St, south to connect w/ the InterCity/Commuter Rail at the US 60. Continuing South into Gilberts Heritage District, further South to their Civic complex, LRT/high speed transit on Chandler BLVD and then finally going down to Pecos Rd to connect to Chandler-Gilbert CC. That would be a 8.5M line. Plus way down the road a Streetcar line could go South to connect to Chandler Airport, which I know there is a vision of it developing similarly to the Scottsdale Airpark.

The Orange plans express route is 88 minutes, only 15 minutes slower than the Green routes express route. I think I'm willing to wait that extra 15 minutes for better East Valley connection, connection to Williams Gateway, possible promotion of better growth patterns in Pinal county, etc.

[Arquitect]

What does everyone here think of the various routes from PHX to Tucson?

In an unusual twist for me, I don't really have a strong opinion on which one is best. Though Im sure with more thought I'll develop one that I like most.

First lets look at the options that are totally lame in my opinion and should be dismissed:

BLUE:
http://www.azdot.gov/passengerrail/pdf/Blue_Alternative.pdf

This is the bus alternative. No on is going to ride a bus to Tucson. The only reason ADOT has this plan listed is because they have to for Federal requirements study other modes, and also study what would happen if they do nothing at all as Sean Holstege said in the video.

RED:

http://www.azdot.gov/passengerrail/pdf/Red_Alternative.pdf

I don't like how this one dog legs way out of the way to Maricopa. I understand that the thinking is to connect to Amtrak in Maricpa. I don't want to connect to Amtrak in Maricopa, I want to connect to Amtrak at Union Station in Downtown PHX.

I think if Phoenix/AZ develops a fairly robust LRT, Commuter Rail and InterCity rail program, Amtrak would feel more pressure to make a natural connection to those systems.

Interesting that the 2 routes to Tucson that I really dislike are UofA colors.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So with those 2 options eliminated the question becomes: Do we try to get from Downtown PHX to Downtown Tucson as fast as humanly possible? Or do we leave PHX via the East Valley to scoop up more passengers, connect to Williams-Gateway and to use this intercity rail as a 2 birds with 1 stone system that also acts as Commuter Rail?

I think my preference is to go out through the East Valley for a few reasons. I like the idea of being able to connect to Downtown Mesa and to Gateway Airport. Growing Gateway into a true reliever airport seems like it would be greatly helped by rail access.

Additionally if growth is going to happen in the "Sun Corridor" through Pinal County (going from the SE Valley, wrapping around the Gila Indian Res) a possible rail line could help promote more sustainable growth patterns in that area. Of course no development in that area would be best, but that seems unrealistic to hope for. If Pinal County could be pressured into adopting New Urbanist sort of zoning laws for that whole corridor it would be great.

PURPLE

http://www.azdot.gov/passengerrail/pdf/Purple_Alternative.pdf
It's not one of the fastest routes, but it also doesn't connect to Williams Gateway or promote much of a sustainable growth corridor.

YELLOW
http://www.azdot.gov/passengerrail/pdf/Yellow_Alternative.pdf

Nothing terribly wrong with this route in terms of its alignment (though I would like it to go to Gateway) but if you read the times on the lower left this route is very slow compared to the others. I'm not sure if that just has to do with the train tracks its using or what, but it seems too slow.

TEAL
http://www.azdot.gov/passengerrail/pdf/Teal_Alternative.pdf

The Teal route is one I could live with. I like that it more directly connects w/ Downtown Mesa. On the other hand, it misses Williams Gateway directly.

GREEN
http://www.azdot.gov/passengerrail/pdf/Green_Alternative.pdf

The Green route is by far the fastest, but it misses the entire East Valley. Maybe thats OK if we knew for sure MAG would be offering Commuter Rail into the East Valley, and one could connect to that via Union Station. But I feel worried that may or may not happen, so I want to make sure those connections happen.

Plus its not that much faster than some other routes.

So after all that rambling, I think this is my favorite route:

ORANGE
http://www.azdot.gov/passengerrail/pdf/Orange_Alternative.pdf

It doesn't connect directly to Downtown Mesa, which is a slight minus for me. But it does show the idea of some kind of high speed line connecting Mesa and Chandler with the Intercity/Commuter Rail. Perhaps a Modern Streetcar line on Country Club/Arizona Ave, connecting into the LRT line in Mesa and connecting Downtown Chandler.

Plus this route also shows the idea of some kind of transit corridor along Chandler Blvd/Williams Field Rd which we've long discussed here. That would also likely connect Ahwatukee to the line along Chandler Blvd.

One thing it doesn't show, which would seem sensible to me is a N/S high speed transit (probably Modern Streetcar) line along Gilbert Rd. Starting from the North it would connect w/ the Main LRT line at Gilbert and Main St, south to connect w/ the InterCity/Commuter Rail at the US 60. Continuing South into Gilberts Heritage District, further South to their Civic complex, LRT/high speed transit on Chandler BLVD and then finally going down to Pecos Rd to connect to Chandler-Gilbert CC. That would be a 8.5M line. Plus way down the road a Streetcar line could go South to connect to Chandler Airport, which I know there is a vision of it developing similarly to the Scottsdale Airpark.

The Orange plans express route is 88 minutes, only 15 minutes slower than the Green routes express route. I think I'm willing to wait that extra 15 minutes for better East Valley connection, connection to Williams Gateway, possible promotion of better growth patterns in Pinal county, etc.

Personaly, my favorite is the orange one. I really do see Mesa/Gateway evolving from being a mostly regional/smaller airline airport, to being a much more prominent airport for the city. In a similar wway to Midway/O'Hare in Chicago, or SFO/Oakland in the Bay, I would like to see Sky Harbor become more of an interntional hub. Besides connecting the three major airports in AZ, I also like that it incorporates cities that are not being covered by the current light rail expansions (Gilbert/Chandler), so it would be a great way to incorporate the region.

I do have a concern that with this line, MAG would not pursue its own communter rail system. I would love to see this as a great addition to the system, not so much an instead of. As Hoover mentioned, it would still be nice to see downtown Mesa be incorporated into the mix by commuter rail.

In the grander scheme of things, I would also love to see this route expand in the future. It would be awesome if the line going up to Surprise could eventually link all the way to Las Vegas. Similarly, I would really like to see the southbound line go all the ay down to Nogales. The i19 corridor south of Tucson is experiencing a lot of growth, and it would be great to be able to create smarter growth along high speed rail lines.

[HooverDam]

One thing I've wondered, and I don't have enough technical knowledge to really know the answer, can a system like this work as both Commuter and intercity rail?

I.E. can the same kind of train run from Downtown PHX to Mesa as sort of a commuter train, and then dramatically pick up speed once its out in the middle of the desert to work better as intercity rail?

The info on the routes seems to imply that would be the case, but I'm not 100% clear.

[nickw252]

One thing I've wondered, and I don't have enough technical knowledge to really know the answer, can a system like this work as both Commuter and intercity rail?

I.E. can the same kind of train run from Downtown PHX to Mesa as sort of a commuter train, and then dramatically pick up speed once its out in the middle of the desert to work better as intercity rail?

The info on the routes seems to imply that would be the case, but I'm not 100% clear.

I would think that it could serve as both commuter and inter-city rail. That's what it seems like New Mexico is doing with the Rail Runner. It's one 97 mile line that goes from Santa Fe to Albaquerque with stops in the suburbs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Mexico_Rail_Runner_Express

My preference has been the orange line also since it connects with Williams Gateway.

[Arquitect]

News on the Glendale LRT route:

It’s 13 years out, but Glendale is starting plans for its east-west, downtown light rail extension. With Phoenix, Mesa, and the Tempe trolley opening dates all moved forward by several years, October 30th found Glendale’s city council directing staff to start alternative analysis to determine the better of the two corridors—the east-west downtown corridor or the north-south Loop 101 corridor.

From the beginning of light rail planning, Glendale was expecting light rail to extend from west Phoenix. The Glendale route would start from the Phoenix Northwest Extension and head west from the 19th Avenue/Metro Center extension into central Glendale. The Metro Center extension is nearing a construction start for a 2016 opening.

In the last couple of years, interest arose for a link from I-10 following the freeway into the Westgate area. That route develops westward on I-10 ending near 79th Ave. There is no construction funding for the West Valley route, although design (AZBEX, July 27th) kicked off for the area from 1st Ave., past the Capitol towards the state fairgrounds.

The staff presentation had a “more taste-less filling” flavor, ultimately recommending that both corridors be promoted to Valley Metro light rail. The east-west corridor to downtown Glendale was preferred—and will be advocated first—for its shorter distance, connection to existing transit riders for higher boardings, and because it’s a better candidate for federal funding.

The I-10/Loop 101 route wasn’t tossed to the side. The staff recommended it be pursued for long-range development opportunities. The route has major advantages with a faster travel time to central Phoenix from newly developing areas. The connection to Glendale’s major sports venues, University of Phoenix Stadium and Jobing.com Arena, did not go unnoticed as well.

Staff says the alternative analysis will stretch into 2015 to pick the east-west corridor alignment. The study area sits between Northern Ave. and Camelback Rd. and from 19th Ave. on the east to Loop 101 on the west. The design process starts in 2016.


Source:
http://azbex.com/glendale-goes-east-west-for-first-light-rail-extension/

[Arquitect]

News on the Glendale LRT route:



Source:
http://azbex.com/glendale-goes-east-west-for-first-light-rail-extension/

I definitely think that the east-west extension along Glendale road would be the best option. I understand that they are trying to link to Cardinal Stadium, but it is such a waste of money with very little payback in ridership, except for when the Cardinals play. I think linking downtown Glandale is more important. They already have a nice little urban scene, and light rail would greatly help spur more urban development in the area. Hope they are able to get some funding and cut the finnish date by a few years.

[HooverDam]

Great to hear Glendale thinking about connecting via Downtown Glendale. I've said it once, I'll say it again but the area between Downtown Glendale and Westgate could become the West sides answer to the Camelback Corridor w/ rail running down it if planned properly (though it'd likely never be quite that high end).

Too bad the article stupidly calls the LRT a "trolley" though.

[KEVINphx]

Great to hear Glendale thinking about connecting via Downtown Glendale. I've said it once, I'll say it again but the area between Downtown Glendale and Westgate could become the West sides answer to the Camelback Corridor w/ rail running down it if planned properly (though it'd likely never be quite that high end).

Too bad the article stupidly calls the LRT a "trolley" though.

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but they are referring to the Tempe Trolley - which is NOT light rail and is indeed a lower form of transit. . .

[HooverDam]

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but they are referring to the Tempe Trolley - which is NOT light rail and is indeed a lower form of transit. . .

Oh damn, you're right. They were referring to Tempe, I mustve glazed over that.

Even still though "Trolley" isn't quite right for what they're building in Tempe. Its Modern Streetcar. I know I'm probably being pedantic, but Trolley has certain (slow moving) connotations that don't help the view of mass transit for people. What they currently have in Tucson is a Heritage Trolley (or streetcar), so thats a correct usage of the word there.

And its not a 'lower' form of transit. I mean, its slower and carries fewer people, but it has its purpose.

[Leo the Dog]

Too bad the article stupidly calls the LRT a "trolley" though.

I've thought that SD's "trolley" sounds very folksy, small-townish. But then when SD built it initially, it was 1981. It was groundbreaking for the entire western US. It is a unique name that has stuck with the ages...which is kinda cool. Ie: Boston's T

I'd like to see Phoenicians call it "metro" vs. light rail (a generic term). nobody says let's take the heavy rail to Yankee stadium.

[phxSUNSfan]

I've thought that SD's "trolley" sounds very folksy, small-townish. But then when SD built it initially, it was 1981. It was groundbreaking for the entire western US. It is a unique name that has stuck with the ages...which is kinda cool. Ie: Boston's T

I'd like to see Phoenicians call it "metro" vs. light rail (a generic term). nobody says let's take the heavy rail to Yankee stadium.

Light rail isn't a generic term it is a newer term for a transit mode that is relatively new to the U.S. "Metro" is a European term for subway. Light rail in Europe is called a tram and the distinction between streetcars and light rail isn't as important.

Heavy rail is commuter rail, subway, and El that can carry many more people at much faster speeds than light rail. No one calls it heavy rail because they call it by one of the subcategories. Light rail, however, is just light rail; unless we start calling it a tram in the U.S.

[exit2lef]

For me, the term " trolley" was ruined by the opponents of Proposition 400 back in 2004. They covered the city with "trolley folly" signs, and even though they lost the election, they tainted the word for me.

[Arquitect]

Light rail isn't a generic term it is a newer term for a transit mode that is relatively new to the U.S. "Metro" is a European term for subway. Light rail in Europe is called a tram and the distinction between streetcars and light rail isn't as important.

Heavy rail is commuter rail, subway, and El that can carry many more people at much faster speeds than light rail. No one calls it heavy rail because they call it by one of the subcategories. Light rail, however, is just light rail; unless we start calling it a tram in the U.S.

I think it has to do with the way it marketrd itself. In the local media it is always called lightrail. But my out of toen friends call it metro when they come visit.

[phxSUNSfan]

I think it has to do with the way it marketrd itself. In the local media it is always called lightrail. But my out of toen friends call it metro when they come visit.

Light rail was never really marketed it was adopted by transit authorities. The new train system terminology that we call "light rail" today was first adopted by the UMTA (Urban Mass Transit Administration) in the 1970's. UMTA is now known as the FTA (Federal Transit Administration). According to Wikipedia, the UMTA had to decide between two different names: city rail and light rail. I think light rail was first called city rail by the manufacturers of the new trains.

I've never heard "metro" used in the U.S. to describe any kind of rail system or vehicle by itself; as in, no one in NYC would say to "take the metro" in referencing the subway train. Where are your friends from? If they are from Canada, that is understandable. I know some cities, like Phoenix and D.C., refer to their entire system as "Metro" (e.g. Valley Metro and Washington Metro) and that covers everything from buses to commuter rail.

[HooverDam]

I dislike that we call it "the lightrail" here in PHX, it sounds so clunky to me. Plus, what happens later if I'm going to Tempe and switching from Light Rail to Modern Streetcar? I'd rather just say "I'm taking the Metro" then "I'm taking the Light Rail to the Modern Streetcar"...sounds goofy.

I talked to one of Valley Metros communication directors about this. I think part of the problem is way back when LRT was being discussed it started getting called "Light Rail" and it just kind of stuck. But doubling that issue is that Valley Metro itself often calls it "the light rail" and then some other times calls it "the Metro." I told her you'd never hear Apple talk about the iPhone but also call it "the Smartphone", they have consistent brand identity.

Valley Metro in general does a poor job w/ brand identity and recognition I think. The Metro signs at LRT stops with the icon of the LRT car and the sun (or whatever it is) are kinda cool, but I'd prefer something iconic and simple like Bostons white and black "T" logo. Something you don't necessarily need to speak English to understand.

I actually kinda like this logo:

http://www.valleymetro.org/images/media_kit/VMLogo.jpg

But I HATE the swoopy thing. I get it, its representing motion or whatever, but something about it seems lame to me (can't put my finger on it). I wish it was just the M part purple and the V part green. Nice and simple, then use that logo at all the LRT stops.

[phxSUNSfan]

I dislike that we call it "the lightrail" here in PHX, it sounds so clunky to me. Plus, what happens later if I'm going to Tempe and switching from Light Rail to Modern Streetcar? I'd rather just say "I'm taking the Metro" then "I'm taking the Light Rail to the Modern Streetcar"...sounds goofy.

I am starting to hear people (and often do myself) just simply say "the train". No one will call the Tempe Streetcar the "Modern Streetcar" we will likely just say "streetcar". I will never be able to call a light rail system "metro" because of the time I spend in Europe and the understanding of a "metro" being a full-fledged, heavy rail system.

But the Tempe/Mill Ave Streetcar might develop an acronym one day. If metro Phoenix ever gets commuter rail we can start calling the system...PhART! I think Jon Talton first came up with that acronym: Phoenix Area Rapid Transit...LOL!

The reason why people, cities in metro Phoenix, and the Valley Metro communication director you spoke to (and everyone with Metro Light Rail/Valley Metro) starting calling the light rail, the light rail is because that is what it's called...pretty simple concept. It doesn't sound goofy or clunky to me, it sounds rather descriptive of the purpose of the train's design.

[phxSUNSfan]

Why light rail is called light rail:

"Light Rail is essentially a modern evolution of the conventional trolley. The concept evolved largely in the German and Dutch speaking countries of Europe in the decades after World War II. In this era cities in the U.S., Canada, the U.K., and France, among other countries, replaced their streetcars with buses, but in the German and Dutch-speaking countries the streetcars were retained and upgraded.

The Transit Research Board definition is: 'Light rail transit is a metropolitan electric railway system characterized by its ability to operate single cars or short trains along exclusive rights of way at ground level, on aerial structures, in subways or, occasionally, in streets, and to board and discharge passengers at track or car-floor level.'

Light rail systems are normally less expensive to build than heavy rapid transit systems (see Heavy Rail) as they require less and simpler infrastructure. Light rail lines can carry more passengers through a given corridor than buses or streetcars, but fewer than a heavy rapid transit system.

Surviving trolley systems in cities such as Boston, Pittsburgh, and San Francisco have been upgraded to light rail status in recent decades. Since 1981 many completely new light rail systems have been built in cities such as San Diego, Portland (OR), Buffalo, Baltimore, St. Louis, and Dallas to name just a few."

http://www.heritagetrolley.org/defLightRail.htm

[nickw252]

I say train. I agree, "light rail" sounds clunky.

[exit2lef]

But the Tempe/Mill Ave Streetcar might develop an acronym one day. If metro Phoenix ever gets commuter rail we can start calling the system...PhART! I think Jon Talton first came up with that acronym: Phoenix Area Rapid Transit...LOL!



PHART is an old, tired joke. Considering that Jon Talton rehashes the same unoriginal themes and language over and over again in his bitter diatribes, I doubt very much he came up with it.

Personally, I say "the train," but I'm fine with "light rail" or "the light rail." "Metro" just sounds pretentious -- as if we consider ourselves the Paris of the West. My pet peeve is the way people pronounce "light rail." I often hear the emphasis on the first word, as in LIGHT rail. To me, that suggests a rail made of light -- maybe a holographic transit system. It sound much better to me with the emphasis on the second word: Light RAIL, rail transit with lightweight infrastructure, but I think a lot of Phoenicians don't understand that's the origin of the phrase "light rail."

[aznative]

I've never heard "metro" used in the U.S. to describe any kind of rail system or vehicle by itself; as in, no one in NYC would say to "take the metro" in referencing the subway train. Where are your friends from? If they are from Canada, that is understandable. I know some cities, like Phoenix and D.C., refer to their entire system as "Metro" (e.g. Valley Metro and Washington Metro) and that covers everything from buses to commuter rail.

I currently live near Baltimore and the subway here is referred to as "The Metro" the light rail line referred to as "Light Rail", commuter rail referred to as "MARC" which is the name of the rail. and if someone uses the bus they just say the bus.

[N830MH]

Hello All,

I took a picture of PHX SkyTrain. To see how is construction in progress and it come along. So here is the link:

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.4974470283730.348797.1358507147&type=1&l=67654754bb

This is stage 1a. It's look great! You can see how to being built a SkyTrain. It will continuation to do constructed the SkyTrain and it will be completely sometime in early 2015.

[RichTempe]

Hello All,

I took a picture of PHX SkyTrain. To see how is construction in progress and it come along. So here is the link:

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.4974470283730.348797.1358507147&type=1&l=67654754bb

This is stage 1a. It's look great! You can see how to being built a SkyTrain. It will continuation to do constructed the SkyTrain and it will be completely sometime in early 2015.

Thanks for the pictures Scott. It looks like construction towards Terminal 3 is moving along nicely.

[N830MH]

http://www.azcentral.com/community/glendale/articles/20121107glendale-begins-discussing-light-rail-paths.html

Light rail in Glendale is more feasible along an east-west corridor into downtown than a north-south route from Interstate 10 along Loop 101, according to a two-year Metro study.

The next step is to dig deeper into the best east-west corridor between Northern Avenue and Camelback Road and the best mode of high-capacity transit — light rail or high-capacity bus service, for instance.

Glendale voters in 2001 backed funding to bring light rail to downtown with the caveat it would not be on Glendale Avenue, which goes right through the city’s historic downtown.

The latest study came after the City Council four years ago asked for another option to be studied: from 79th Avenue along the I-10 and then north along the 101 to Westgate City Center.

The city’s sports and entertainment district didn’t exist when voters agreed to light rail years ago.

Metro officials said both corridors have merit, but the east-west route has greater potential to get critical federal dollars, based on the potential for redevelopment and a higher ridership forecast.

[HooverDam]

Glad the E-W route seems to be in the lead now. But I really don't understand why they wouldn't want it on Glendale Ave. Thats the Cities "Main St" and it makes the most sense. Hopefully when they see how well the Mesa extension will do, and how it helps their Downtown and turns it into a walkable place, they'll realize its the best option.

Camelback is interesting because of GCU and proximity to Maryvale and likely a high ridership base. But it seems almost redundant/too close to the I-10 West line and not connecting more directly to Downtown Glendale seems crazy.

EDIT:

Though this is something I hadn't previously considered. Maybe a Glendale extension, instead of branching off of 19th Ave right at Glendale Ave, would do so from Camelback. So you have a 3 way LRT junction at Camelback and 19th Ave.

From 19th Ave and Camelback have the line run West to 35th Ave. Then North to Glendale Ave. Then West all the way to Westgate.

Connecting to GCU as it continues to rapidly grow and potentially change that area seems like a huge plus. And I don't think you're missing much on Glendale Ave between 19th and 35th....unless I'm forgetting something.

[PhxER]

Mayor tours new Sky Train terminal

A new station to connect Metro light-rail with a driverless train serving Phoenix Sky Harbor International Airport will function in many ways like a terminal, Mayor Greg Stanton said Tuesday. Touring the station, scheduled to open in early 2013 with PHX Sky Train, Stanton showed where ticket counters will allow passengers to get boarding passes and check in bags, for example.

“This facility is going to go a long way to advancing the long term goals of our airport and make life a lot more convenient for the literally millions of passengers who use Sky Harbor,” Stanton said.

Part of the 44th Street and Washington light-rail station, the facility will connect to a $1.5 billion system offering electric trains running 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Officials expect it to carry 14 million passengers per year.

The free system is scheduled to open its first stage, which cost $644 million, in the first quarter of 2013, connecting light rail to the East Economy Parking garage and Terminal 4. The next stage, scheduled to open in 2015, will connect to Terminal 3, with a walkway to Terminal 2. The final stage, with no date set for opening, will extend 2.5 miles west to the Rental Car Center.

For now, PHX Sky Trains are shuttling 16,000 pounds of sandbags to simulate the weight of 53 passengers with luggage. Deborah Ostreicher, city of Phoenix deputy aviation director, said PHX Sky Train, which travels up to 38 mph, is incredibly fast, convenient and state-of-the-art.

“One of the new great offerings is the ability to check your bags at the East Economy Parking station or the 44th Street and Washington station,” Ostreicher said.
Staton said that over time more people will ask family members to meet at the 44th Street Station rather than the terminals because it will be so much more convenient. He said the project was paid for entirely by fees added on to airline tickets, generally $4.50 per ticket. “We want Sky Harbor Airport to continue to grow,” Stanton said. “It’s incredibly important to the future economy that we have one of, if not the best, airport.”

Video (http://vimeo.com/53465836)
Resource (http://cronkitenewsonline.com/2012/11/phoenix-mayor-touts-station-connecting-light-rail-with-airport-train-system/)
Fox10 Video (http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/story/20081087/2012/11/13/sky-train?autoStart=true&topVideoCatNo=default&clipId=7955469)

[Leo the Dog]

^^^this is looking good. seems like this was built very quickly! I understand how it was financed. wouldn't it be awesome if metro Phoenix municipalities could find a similar way to fund their own transportation projects fully to bypass the Federal gov't red tape?

[Arquitect]

^^^this is looking good. seems like this was built very quickly! I understand how it was financed. wouldn't it be awesome if metro Phoenix municipalities could find a similar way to fund their own transportation projects fully to bypass the Federal gov't red tape?

They kinda did. The one cent sales tax is very similar to adding an additional cost to your airplane ticket. Unfortunately, not all the money gathered went to mass transit, most went to freeway construction. It would be great if we could get a similar initiative to pass and only fund mass transit. It would be a great way to fund the light-rail extensions.

[combusean]

With 204's failure, there's plenty of room in the sales tax for transit funding.

You guys need to lobby for that "Proposition 500" that MAG keeps dragging ass on.

[nickw252]

The Phoenix Sky Train people-mover at Phoenix Sky Harbor International Airport is nearly complete, and our Photo Editor Jim Poulin had a chance Friday to get a behind-the-scenes tour of the 44th Street & Washington station.

Phoenix officials say the electrically-powered, automated PHX Sky Train will transport travelers between the Metro light rail stop at 44th and Washington streets, East Economy Parking and Terminal 4, which serves about 80 percent of Sky Harbor’s passengers.

The train is poised to open early next year, though no official date has been set.


http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2012/11/16/photos-a-sneak-peek-of-the-new.html

http://assets.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/Sky_Train_01.JPG

http://assets.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/Sky_Train_04.JPG

http://assets.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/Sky_Train_06.JPG?v=1

http://assets.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/Sky_Train_08.JPG?v=1

http://assets.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/Sky_Train_11.JPG?v=1

http://assets.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/Sky_Train_19.JPG?v=1

http://assets.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/Sky_Train_20.JPG?v=1

http://assets.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/Sky_Train_21.JPG?v=1

[HooverDam]

The SkyTrain terminal looks very nice. Though can't we do better than this in regards to trees and shade in surface lots?

http://assets.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/Sky_Train_01.JPG

[plinko]

^15 gallon trees grow alot faster than 24" or 36" boxes (and are of course much much cheaper). Nonetheless, there should be some decent shade from these...two years from now...

[nickw252]

^15 gallon trees grow alot faster than 24" or 36" boxes (and are of course much much cheaper). Nonetheless, there should be some decent shade from these...two years from now...

You are absolutely right. I planted two 15 gallon sissoos in March 2011 and now one is much larger than a 36" box, the other is about what you'd get in a 36" box. Mind you sissoo trees are fast growers.

Also, the 36" boxes are more than 10x the price of 15 gallon containers at Moon Valley.

http://shop.moonvalleynurseries.com/Sissoo-Trees-for-Sale-s/1856.htm

[nickw252]

Phoenix, AZ (November 19, 2012) Valley Metro invites the community to attend a public meeting that will provide updates on the Northwest Extension of light rail. Attendees will have the opportunity to view the final design, see the draft construction schedule and learn about business assistance programs. Officials from Valley Metro, the city of Phoenix and construction contractors, Sundt/Stacy and Witbeck, will be available to answer questions. Residents and businesses have a choice of two dates:

Tuesday, November 27, 2012
6 – 8 p.m. (Presentation will begin at 6:30 p.m.)
Location: Orangewood Elementary School Cafeteria
7337 N. 19th Avenue, Phoenix (19th Avenue between Northern and Glendale)

Thursday, November 29, 2012
6 – 8 p.m. (Presentation will begin at 6:30 p.m.)
Richard E. Miller School Cafeteria
2021 W. Alice Avenue, Phoenix (19th Avenue between Northern and Dunlap)

The 3.2-mile extension will travel north from Bethany Home Road along 19th Avenue to Dunlap Avenue, opening in late 2015/early 2016. For more information on the project, go to www.valleymetro.org/northwest.

For additional information or to make reasonable accommodations for persons with disabilities at these meetings, please contact Carla Kahn at 602-744-5552 or ckahn@valleymetro.org.

About Valley Metro: Valley Metro provides eco-friendly public transit options to residents of greater Phoenix and Maricopa County including the planning and operations of a regional bus system and the development and operations of METRO light rail. In fiscal year 2012, total ridership for the system was71 million passengers. The first 20-miles of light rail opened December 2008 and served 13.5 million riders in 2012 exceeding the prior year by six percent. Six light rail extensions are under way that will create a 57-mile system by 2032. Valley Metro also offers transit options including commuter vanpools, online carpool matching, bus trip mapping, bicycle safety and telework assistance. A board of 16 governments sets the policy direction for the agency and works to improve and regionalize the public transit system. Get the latest news by following us on Facebook and Twitter.


http://www.valleymetro.org/pressreleases/detail/public_meeting_to_provide_updates_on_northwest_phoenix_rail_extension

[nickw252]

deleted

[glynnjamin]

So I was at SkyHarbor, riding the bus over to the LRT stop, and I saw the SkyTrain taking a roll. I commented to the flight attendant next to me that it will be nice when the thing opens. She says to me, "take a look at this" and points over to the train going up a stretch of track that has an incline. The train slowed down a good bit as it went over the incline. She says to me, "They were testing that thing last week with a load of people on it and it got stuck. It couldn't make it over the incline. They have no idea how to fix it without it costing a fortune."

Did anyone know they were testing this with people or has anyone else heard about issues with the train and a load of people?

[nickw252]

So I was at SkyHarbor, riding the bus over to the LRT stop, and I saw the SkyTrain taking a roll. I commented to the flight attendant next to me that it will be nice when the thing opens. She says to me, "take a look at this" and points over to the train going up a stretch of track that has an incline. The train slowed down a good bit as it went over the incline. She says to me, "They were testing that thing last week with a load of people on it and it got stuck. It couldn't make it over the incline. They have no idea how to fix it without it costing a fortune."

Did anyone know they were testing this with people or has anyone else heard about issues with the train and a load of people?

I haven't heard about that problem but having an engineering background I highly doubt the engineers and designers weren't able to do calculate the physics of how much power is required to get the train over the known incline with a known load.

I sure hope I don't have to eat my words. That would be a huge setback.

[RichTempe]

I haven't heard about that problem but having an engineering background I highly doubt the engineers and designers weren't able to do calculate the physics of how much power is required to get the train over the known incline with a known load.

I agree. I know they were testing the trains loaded down with sandbags to simulate a load of passengers and luggage, but never heard anything to suggest there were problems. You know the media would be all over it if there was an issue, considering how much money has been spent on this project.
I've seen the cars going up the incline and then over and into terminal 4, although I don't know if they were carrying anything at the time. I'd take that flight attendant's comments with a big grain of salt.

[glynnjamin]

I figured it probably just stalled out for some other reason (electrical, or even planned) and she just assumed or whatever but I figured you all would know.

[PHXflyer]

I had also heard that a train got stuck on the incline. I heard it was during the ride with the mayor and others from the city. Hard to imagine that would've been kept out of the media spotlight if true. Although, I don't see a need for a train to be hauling around bags of sand if it had been engineered correctly for the task at hand, so that leads me to believe that there may be a bit of concern. To back that up, I don't recall the light rail hauling bags of sand around....

[nickw252]

I think the extensive testing is because it is fully automated.

[nickw252]

The Republic certainly has a negative perception of the Metro extension.

Physician Graviola Brooks-Martinez is so concerned that light-rail construction in north-central Phoenix will hurt business that she’s delaying hiring another doctor to join her pediatric practice.

Like many small-business owners along the 19th Avenue corridor, Brooks-Martinez said she’s worried that three years of torn-up asphalt and traffic restrictions will drive away customers. She said several other doctors in her building are even considering moving out of the area.

“I’m afraid that I’m going to lose patients,” Brooks-Martinez said Tuesday night as she left a neighborhood meeting on the upcoming project. “Those are my fears. Maybe it won’t happen.”

Early next year, Phoenix and Valley Metro, the region’s mass transit agency, will break ground on the first phase of the northwest light-rail extension, a 3.2-mile expansion from Montebello to Dunlap avenues. Officials expect to complete the project by early 2016.

While business owners acknowledge the potential long-term benefits of light rail — increased foot traffic and rising property values — they’re anxious about the impacts of years of construction. Several said their primary fear is a lack of accessibility for drivers used to frequenting shops along the busy street.

The city will squeeze traffic along 19th Avenue to one lane in each direction. About 300 businesses are located directly along the future rail line, ranging from sleek medical offices to run-down shopping centers.

City, transit officials offer help

But city and Valley Metro officials said they’re stepping up to make the process as hassle-free as possible for businesses and customers. The two agencies have pledged a combined $1.7million to fund assistance efforts meant to help business owners weather construction.

Rather than giving business owners small grants to temporarily offset their losses, the money will provide tools to grow and enhance their enterprises in the coming years. For example, Phoenix provides business owners with consulting and marketing services, such as website redesign and financial planning.

Other types of assistance are aimed at addressing traffic congestion and construction issues. The city will appoint an access coordinator and Valley Metro will produce roadside signs for each business.

Problems with accessibility for motorists is the foremost concern for small-business owners in an older strip mall near Northern and 19th avenues. The center of roughly 15 shops has one narrow entrance near the future site of a light-rail station.

Ana Berzan, owner of De La Ana European Delicatessen, said she’s worried that news of the construction will deter customers, many of them Romanian immigrants living in the West Valley, from driving to Phoenix to buy her specialty sausages and cured herring.

“It’s not going to be easy for people to get to this plaza,” Berzan said. “I really, really don’t know what to think about it.”

A few storefronts down from the deli, florist Tony Medlock, who has owned PJ’s Flowers and Gifts for 16 years, worries that decreased traffic during construction will hurt his walk-in sales on holidays like Valentine’s Day. However, he sees a silver lining to the expansion.

“I think once construction is completed, it will benefit our business,” Medlock said. “We’ll be able to survive.”

Phoenix officials have stressed that the city will regularly communicate with business owners, looking for creative solutions to a myriad of construction headaches.

Lessons learned

The outreach is similar to what officials offered to businesses during the construction of the original 20-mile rail line that opened in December 2008, with a few tweaks. Assistance will be more flexible this time, allowing consultants to tailor their services to individual needs.

“Certainly, we’ve learned a lot from building the 20-mile line,” said Hillary Foose, a spokeswoman for Valley Metro. “We’ll move and bend depending on what the business community’s needs are. They are assets to the future light-rail line.”

Lynn and Kathleen Courter, owners of The Original Wineburger restaurant near 19th Avenue and Bethany Home Road, met this week with a Valley Metro representative to discuss ways of combating a potential slowdown. The couple are optimistic that their flavorful burgers, cooked with a splash of sangria, will continue to lure diners.

“We want to stick this out,” Kathleen Courter said, adding that the public must keep coming to the area for businesses to survive. “Obviously, we need help.”

For more information on light-rail construction and assistance available to businesses, visit valleymetro.org/northwest.

http://www.azcentral.com/community/phoenix/articles/20121127th-ave-businesses-await-invasion-by-rail.html

[pbenjamin]

We've seen this movie before. There will be complaints from business people who are inevitably hurt by the construction. Some will even go under. Those that are able to stick it out will do better once the new line opens. Circle of life. The press will find a spokesman for the disgruntled (last time it was the owner of the George and Dragon) and give a lot of space to his complaints.

[N830MH]

http://www.azcentral.com/community/phoenix/free/20121210phoenix-light-rail-manager-against-strike.html

Uh-oh....I think they're going on strike. It's whether if they have an agreement. Hope they doesn't walk off the job.

[KingLouieLouie76]

Seems very promising that this is starting to gain more momentum:

http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/region_phoenix_metro/central_phoenix/phoenix-to-tucson-arizona-seeks-comments-on-passenger-rail-proposals

[PhxER]

City of Phoenix thinking of adding 2 new stations on the existing 20 mile line

Phoenix City Hall’s ambitions to expand light-rail service are no longer confined to building new lines. On Wednesday, the City Council is expected to approve spending $120,000 to find out whether two new stations on the existing 20-mile line would work.

City leaders want to know if new stations near 16th and 48th streets would attract enough new riders without bringing service to a crawl. This section of track, along Phoenix’s Washington and Jefferson streets, has the most widely spaced stations on the system, taking trains past mostly light industrial areas.

But they also pass emerging business parks, historically underserved neighborhoods, proposed housing and medical-center developments, and a new resource center that helps hundreds of disabled people find jobs, get counseling, fill out paperwork and gather socially.

The idea of new stations on an existing light-rail line is somewhat novel. Few, if any, have been installed nationwide over the past 20 years, though three are planned in Minneapolis. Disability advocates and Phoenix Vice Mayor Michael Johnson proposed the additions. But before they become a reality, Metro light-rail planners will have to balance the need to improve access with the need to run the system smoothly.

Calls for new stations also come amid the growing popularity of the light-rail system. On an average weekday, Metro light rail carries close to 50,000 people, a number that had not been projected to be reached until the end of the next decade.

Metro is advancing on five extensions, with one under way in Mesa and another to be started next month in Phoenix. Two were not part of the plan approved by voters in 2004.

“People wouldn’t be clamoring for more access if it wasn’t something they didn’t want access to,” Metro light rail spokeswoman Hillary Foose said. “It’s a good problem to have.”

Wednesday’s vote is expected to go in favor of conducting the study. A council committee voted for the idea 4-0 last month. Next month, the Metro governing board is expected to agree to undertake the study.

David Carey, an advocacy specialist at the Arizona Bridge to Independent Living, has long pushed for a station at nearby 48th Street, having seen the toll the journey took on his clients. On weekdays, a bus runs every 45 minutes. On weekends, it’s every hour.

If he or a visitor to ABIL misses a transfer from light rail, he or she often has to travel close to a mile on the street, under a freeway overpass. Many are deaf or blind.

In addition to increasing access, the added stations may drive development. The proposed 16th Street location is attracting interest for an apartment complex, said Phoenix light-rail project manager Albert Santana, and St. Luke’s Medical Center has development plans, as well.

Former Phoenix Mayor Phil Gordon labeled the area east of downtown Phoenix along the tracks “the opportunity corridor,” but development didn’t occur there as fast as it did along Tempe’s Apache Boulevard. Most of the widely spaced stations in Phoenix are among the least used on the line.

“We can’t have people asking for a station on every block,” Santana said. “But these two, in my opinion, are the two that are most promising. Everywhere else we have pretty good coverage.”

Metro planning chief Ben Limmer said, “Our stance is to provide as many options to as many people and as big a cross-section of the public as possible.”

That doesn’t mean stations will be built soon.

The study will take 18 to 24 months. Phoenix is paying for it with revenue from its local transit tax.

Each station will cost $8million to $13million, Metro estimates. No source of funding has been identified. The same is true for the extra cost of maintaining the stations and operating extra service.

Each station has to pass muster with Metro. Last year, Metro enacted a policy for weighing new stations.

To be considered, they must:

Not interfere with current operations.

Be expected to attract 3,000 combined daily boardings and alightings within a year of opening.

Not add more than two minutes to the total travel time.

Today, a typical journey from one end of the line to the other takes 65 minutes. Metro brought that down from more than 70 minutes, the average time in the early days of service. Still, the trip exceeds the original estimate of less than an hour.

Metro operations managers estimate two stations would add two minutes to the total transit time.

Already, transit experts, including Metro planners and managers, concede that the system’s 28 stations are more than the ideal number. Light-rail systems around the country work best with stations every half-mile to mile. On average, Metro meets that standard, but in downtown and midtown Phoenix, stations are closer and the trip is slow.

Neighborhood activists such as Sean Sweat have called the study a “waste of money” because new stations would make the trip between downtown Phoenix and Tempe “slower than it already is.”

Nor is it certain thatthe stations can draw the requisite ridership. During construction, Tempe persuaded Metro to add the Center Parkway station. After a year, it attracted fewer than 300 boardings and 300 alightings. Only 10 stations met the 3,000-passenger threshold at the time.

Despite the technical hurdles and the long timeline, Carey is upbeat.

“I’m very optimistic that the money can be raised,” he said.

Source (http://www.azcentral.com/community/phoenix/articles/20121217phoenix-may-study-adding-light-rail-stops.html)

[N830MH]

Oh, good. We needs it. That's why they do not have adds 2 more new station at 16th St & 48th St as well. I think they needs more people who want to ride on light rail instead of going to ride on the bus. I think it's much easier for the disability people.

[exit2lef]

About the study of adding two stations:

Pro -- An interest in adding infill stations shows just how much of a success light rail has been. People want more of it. 16th St. makes sense because it's a major bus route that serves transit-dependent areas; however, there is no good connection between that bus route and light rail. A 16 St. station would solve that. 48th St. is near a growing cluster of office buildings that are too far from the 44th St. station for most commuters.

Con -- Additional stations slow down the train. While two minutes may not seem like much, we may see additional infill stations in years to come, and eventually all the little bits of time added by those would add up. I wonder if this study can look at ways to offset increased travel time, including better signal prioritization and even adding a second track in some places to allow for differentiation between express and local trains.

[Arquitect]

About the study of adding two stations:

Pro -- An interest in adding infill stations shows just how much of a success light rail has been. People want more of it. 16th St. makes sense because it's a major bus route that serves transit-dependent areas; however, there is no good connection between that bus route and light rail. A 16 St. station would solve that. 48th St. is near a growing cluster of office buildings that are too far from the 44th St. station for most commuters.

Con -- Additional stations slow down the train. While two minutes may not seem like much, we may see additional infill stations in years to come, and eventually all the little bits of time added by those would add up. I wonder if this study can look at ways to offset increased travel time, including better signal prioritization and even adding a second track in some places to allow for differentiation between express and local trains.

Express trains are definitely the way to go. I have ridden different systems that use that method, and it is very efficient. It could easily skip 2 or 3 stations at a time, only hitting the most important ones.

[HooverDam]

About the study of adding two stations:

Pro -- An interest in adding infill stations shows just how much of a success light rail has been. People want more of it. 16th St. makes sense because it's a major bus route that serves transit-dependent areas; however, there is no good connection between that bus route and light rail. A 16 St. station would solve that. 48th St. is near a growing cluster of office buildings that are too far from the 44th St. station for most commuters.

Con -- Additional stations slow down the train. While two minutes may not seem like much, we may see additional infill stations in years to come, and eventually all the little bits of time added by those would add up. I wonder if this study can look at ways to offset increased travel time, including better signal prioritization and even adding a second track in some places to allow for differentiation between express and local trains.

I can see the need for a 16th St station, but it seems to me that should've been done initially instead of a 12th St station.

I think I find the addition of 2 more stations to be more of a "con" right now. Lets see ANY infill development happen between 7th St and Tempe first and then maybe I can imagine that area needing more stations. As is, there's been very little infill in the "Discovery Triangle"/"Opportunity Corridor"/whatever they're calling it now, and some of the stations along that section of the line (ie the Gateway community college stop) are some of the least used last I checked.

[exit2lef]

As is, there's been very little infill in the "Discovery Triangle"/"Opportunity Corridor"/whatever they're calling it now, and some of the stations along that section of the line (ie the Gateway community college stop) are some of the least used last I checked.

There's been some pretty substantial construction of new office buildings between 44th St. & 56th St. along Washington in the last five years. That's the area that a 48th St. station would serve.

[PHX31]

There is some infill going on right now at the nwc of 16th st/Jefferson. What it is? I'm not sure. I just saw the fencing and ground work the other day.

[N830MH]

http://www.azcentral.com/community/phoenix/free/20121221light-rail-strike-dec-phoenix-averted.html

PHOENIX — Officials with the light rail that serves the Phoenix metropolitan area say the potential for a work stoppage by New Year’s Eve has been averted.

The Amalgamated Transit Union Local 1433 and light rail operations contractor Alternate Concepts agreed Friday to continue labor negotiations under existing work conditions.

What is exactly gonna do for now?

[HooverDam]

There is some infill going on right now at the nwc of 16th st/Jefferson. What it is? I'm not sure. I just saw the fencing and ground work the other day.

There's some low slung (4 story I think?) subsidized apartments going in there.If Im not mistaken it was originally slated to be taller, but Calvin Goode threw a shit fit.

[nickw252]

http://kjzz.org/content/1212/arizona-transportation-officials-review-phoenix-tucson-rail-comments

[DevilsRider]

Has anyone heard a more firm date for the opening of the Sky Train than "1st Quarter 2013"? I mean, considering we're IN the 1st quarter now, it would be nice to know a more exact date...

[HooverDam]

Has anyone heard a more firm date for the opening of the Sky Train than "1st Quarter 2013"? I mean, considering we're IN the 1st quarter now, it would be nice to know a more exact date...

They haven't been real firm on the details. I saw a few people tweet at them asking when it would open and they just keep saying Q1 2013.

In happy news I was right by the SkyTrain today and saw it going up and over the hill with ease and seemed to be operating fine.

[exit2lef]

They haven't been real firm on the details. I saw a few people tweet at them asking when it would open and they just keep saying Q1 2013.

In happy news I was right by the SkyTrain today and saw it going up and over the hill with ease and seemed to be operating fine.

Yes, I see it on test runs almost every day as the train I ride to work passes the 44th Street station. The refusal to name a specific date is weird.

[HooverDam]

Yes, I see it on test runs almost every day as the train I ride to work passes the 44th Street station. The refusal to name a specific date is weird.

Its frustrating because I want to be a big nerd and ride it on opening day like I did with LRT. I hope its not some sneaky soft open where 'surprise its open today!"

On a Sky Harbor related note: The Terrazzo floors they're putting in the SkyTrain terminal look great and all but I can't help but wish the 1% for the Arts money used in the Sky Train project would've gone to plant flowers and trees around Sky Harbor.

Sky Harbors terminals and views of the mountains are great, but so much of the area around is just gross gravel. Some of the gravel is in the Native American shapes or whatever, but its still terrible. It doesn't seem to me it would be that costly to throw down a ton of lantana around the 143, beneath the SkyTrain, etc.

As is, its a very unwelcoming, ugly entry to the City.

[Vicelord John]

I routinely hear people comment how they arrived here and everthing around the airport was "brand new" and "really clean". I think the impression they want to give tourists is that this place is some new fancy city with no overgrown vegitation and constant manicuring.

[HooverDam]

I routinely hear people comment how they arrived here and everthing around the airport was "brand new" and "really clean". I think the impression they want to give tourists is that this place is some new fancy city with no overgrown vegitation and constant manicuring.

Like I said inside the airport is very nice. The area surrounding it though is mostly a hot, dusty, ugly mess. I've worked in Tourism too, and constantly heard guests comment to that effect.

There's no reason vegetation has to be 'over grown' or need 'constant manicuring', thats the nice thing about properly done xeriscaping (as opposed to Sky Harbors "zero-scaping"), a lot of it is pretty much 'set it and forget it' as Ron Popeil would say.

[nickw252]

PHOENIX (AP) - Ground will be broken Saturday on a project to extend metro Phoenix's light rail system by three miles.

The new section of line will be built on 19th Avenue in Phoenix from Montebello Avenue northward to Dunlap Avenue.

Construction will begin Monday.

The $300 million project is slated to be completed in late 2015 or early 2016.

The first 20-miles of light rail opened in December 2008.

Six light rail extensions are under way that will create a 57-mile system by 2032.

http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/story/20561409/ground-to-be-broken-on-light-rail-extension

PHOENIX -- Ground will be broken Saturday on a project to extend metro Phoenix's light rail system by three miles.

"It's just over a three-mile extension," said Melissa Quillard with Valley Metro. "There will be three new light rail stations, a brand new park-and-ride -- located on 19th Ave. and Dunlap -- and it's going to give access to more than 20,000 commuters every day."

The new section of line will be built on 19th Avenue in Phoenix from Montebello Avenue northward to Dunlap Avenue. Quillard said the area is "dense" with commuters.

"This stretch of light rail is going to serve a really dense residential area, many schools. It ultimately will stimulate growth and economic activity all the way along the line."

The groundbreaking will be commemorated with an event at the southwest corner of 19th Ave. and Dunlap, complete with activities, local food and entertainment.

Construction will begin Monday.

The $300 million project is slated to be completed in late 2015 or early 2016.

The first 20-miles of light rail opened in December 2008.

Six light rail extensions are under way that will create a 57-mile system by 2032.

http://ktar.com/22/1601048/Ground-to-be-broken-on-lightrail-extension

[nickw252]

Metro’s on-again, off-again light-rail extension along 19th Avenue in Phoenix will break ground today.

The event will be met with a mixture of relief by those who want access to the rail system and dread by nearby businesses and residents who fear the disruption from long-term construction.

The three-station extension is scheduled to open by early 2016. The $300million project will add stations at Glendale, Northern and Dunlap avenues, and is expected to attract an estimated 5,000 additional riders a day.

The new line will end at Dunlap and 19th avenues, 3.2 miles north of the current terminus at Montebello and 19th avenues.

“It’s critical to Phoenix and the area of 19th Avenue. We can’t be a great city unless we have a great light-rail system,” said Greg Stanton, mayor of Phoenix and chairman of the Metro light-rail board.

“It’s opens up a world of possibilities,” he added.

Stanton was referring to development potential along the busy street and the ability to lure car commuters from a wider area. The stations at the ends of the line are Metro’s busiest because people use the park-and-ride lots there to shorten their drives. Private developers have invested billions of dollars in new projects near light-rail stations.

But not everybody is wild about the prospect of three years of construction.

“At the beginning, it was a shock and a bit of disappointment,” said Luis Fernando, vice president of the Arizona Car Wash Co., which owns a car wash at Bethany Home Road and 19th Avenue. “It will affect 30 to 40 percent of our business.”

Fernando decided to find out more, and he learned of Metro’s free advertising and promotion plan for affected businesses. He found out that construction was “a lot more organized” than when the 20-mile starter line was built and that the contractor was going door to door to ask business owners their preferred hours of construction.

Fernando and other 19th Avenue business owners organized and met with neighbors to make the most of a disruptive situation. He said companies that failed during the initial light-rail construction weren’t adequately prepared.

“No matter what we do, this (rail construction) is going to happen, so you might as well turn a bad thing into a good thing,” he said. In the end, “it will be a benefit; it will increase property values,” and the rail will add visibility to his business, he added.

Enthusiasts and critics of the Valley’s light-rail system have been here before. Metro canceled the extension project in 2009 a week before construction was to begin. All the money for the work came from a city sales tax dedicated for transit projects, but when the state economy collapsed, the money vanished.

The line that was to have opened in 2012 was halted indefinitely, pending a rebound in revenue. It was the latest twist in a project that has been scaled back and delayed.

Phoenix and Metro used the time to buy as much right of way and move as many utility lines as possible. It was a lesson from completion of the original track in 2008, when slow land acquisition and unforeseen problems with water, sewer, power and communications lines held up work.

The so-called Northwest Extension is now restored. When work begins in earnest next week, it will mean Metro will be adding track on both ends of the original 20-mile line at the same time.

“It shows that I, as mayor, am firmly committed to the extension of light rail,” Stanton said.

A 3-mile, four-station extension into downtown Mesa began last summer. The $200million Mesa addition will open to service in 2016.

http://www.azcentral.com/community/phoenix/articles/20130104phoenix-light-rail-kick-off.html

[N830MH]

Alrighty!! Just about time! I can't wait!

I'm exciting! I am looking forward to it. I am really hope they will opened 3.2 mile extension.

Keep eye on it.

[N830MH]

http://www.azcentral.com/community/ahwatukee/articles/20130110south-mountain-freeway-nears-new-tribal-vote.html#protected

A group of tribal landowners, and a would-be developer who is helping organize them, are close to putting the South Mountain Freeway to another tribal vote.

Last February’s outcome left no doubt in the minds of state and regional transportation planners that the Loop 202 extension would have to be located just north of the tribe’s border, following Pecos Road past Ahwatukee Foothills. That plan calls for the freeway to cut northwest, clipping a hill in South Mountain Park, before turning north along 59th Avenue.

But nothing has ever been straightforward for the planned $1.9billion, 22-mile South Mountain Freeway, which was approved by Maricopa County voters in 1985 and 2004.

[HooverDam]

Fuck the South Mountain Freeway.

I hope the Tribe does everything they can to kill it, what a monumental waste of money.

I love how this sprawl enabling highway is being touted as something that will reduce air pollution because some cars won't be idling anymore. Never-mind that it'll increase over all car trips, likely help increase sprawlish auto dependent neighborhoods, etc.

Seems to me we ought to be smart enough to build a "Pecos Parkway" instead of use the savings for mass transit (ie commuter rail).

[nickw252]

I love how recently people have been making a big deal about the fact that the NW light rail extension costs approximately $100M per mile. The South Mountain Freeway costs $86M per mile and all it is is an F-ing road.

[Leo the Dog]

Im all for local rail, but I'm actually for the SM freeway. There will always be a need for roads. The areas it will serve will always be auto-dependent and the route will benefit the entire region. It will re route through traffic (primarily big rigs) that wouldn't stop in Central Phoenix anyways. Once the I-10 reliever and Loop 202 are constructed the Phoenix freeway system is virtually complete.

It's silly not to have a connection here, just look at the region overall and it is the most underserved region. A blossoming Laveen will benefit Central Phoenix as more residents create a larger tax base and increased property values. A growing Laveen may even spur redevelopment in S. Phx by increasing pop. density, eventually increasing the need for a S. Phx LR spur.

Now the Loop 303 is ridiculous.

[HooverDam]

^My question to you is: Why does it have to be a controlled access freeway?

There are other ways to build higher speed roads/expressways without making it some giant super highway ramming through a rural area.

[ASUSunDevil]

I love how recently people have been making a big deal about the fact that the NW light rail extension costs approximately $100M per mile. The South Mountain Freeway costs $86M per mile and all it is is an F-ing road.

Could not agree more!

[Arquitect]

"To try to solve traffic problems by building freeways is like trying to solve obesity by adding holes to your belt. It temporarily solves the problem, but in a couple month you have to do it again."

Robert Yabes, Principal Planner for the City of Tempe.

I think that if they are creating the infrastructure for these massive highway projects, a mass transit alternative should be built right along side or on top of it. It could be as simple as a BRT, but if freeways are being built, there should be public transport developed. One of the main costs for building light rails, or other transit systems, is the fact that infrastructure has to be built over already built systems, this gives the city a blank slate to start from scratch in.

[Leo the Dog]

I think that if they are creating the infrastructure for these massive highway projects, a mass transit alternative should be built right along side or on top of it. It could be as simple as a BRT, but if freeways are being built, there should be public transport developed. One of the main costs for building light rails, or other transit systems, is the fact that infrastructure has to be built over already built systems, this gives the city a blank slate to start from scratch in.

Couldn't agree with you more. At least preserve the row for future transit options. Phx missed a huge opportunity in the 90s/2000's to preserve space.

[RichTempe]

From the Valley Metro website:

Changes to Service on January 28, New Fares on March 1
PHOENIX, AZ –The newest edition of the Valley Metro Transit Book announces changes to service that begin Monday, January 28. Service changes for the regional transit system occur twice each year: January and July. Upcoming changes to service include:

-New 19th Avenue Connector travels between Bethany Home Road and Dunlap Avenue to help reduce congestion during light rail construction
-Route 1 on Washington/Jefferson will be re-routed to enter the new Sky Train Transit Center at 44th Street and Washington
-Route 96 on Dobson will add one morning and two afternoon trips to serve the Snedigar Sports Complex

Maybe the Sky Train is about to open if they're going start having route 1 buses enter the center.:shrug:

[N830MH]

From the Valley Metro website:



Maybe the Sky Train is about to open if they're going start having route 1 buses enter the center.:shrug:

And route 44 as well. Soon, the route 44 will end at PHX SkyTrain station instead of going to University Dr. I usually to take on route 44 to Washington St/44th St. It's easy for me. I didn't have to go to University Dr anymore. Because this route has been change. We lived in Desert Ridge and I always to take on route 44 to Sky Harbor Airport.

[Vicelord John]

I have been noting the construction being cleaned up around the monorail, rode my bike by last night and the fences were coming down. I couldn't see much, was going too fast, but yeah... It looked ready.

[Freeway]

Whatever. Anti freeway thugs can kiss my tail. The freeway will get built. You already live in a sprawling metropolitan area. Not building the freeway is stupid. Building the freeway as a parkway is stupid. The road should have at least 5 lanes in each direction. New tribal leadership is in support of putting the freeway on tribal land. Tribal members will support freeway construction and it will be constructed. It's been on the books for 28 years now and will have monumental effects on improving the future flow of traffic on the stretch of the 10 between Pecos Road all the way to at least 51st Avenue. We the People have approved the construction of this freeway TWICE and its what we want. Anti freeway goons need to move to Tucson, Portland, or some other anti-economic development, anti-free market hellhole. Imagine the Valley without its freeway system. It would be an absolute disaster. The freeway won't encourage additional sprawl if it's going on tribal land. Unless the tribe approves additional development, it's not as if any developer can just build some random subdivision or mall on GRIC land.

[hrivas]

anti-free market.
haha.

[Locofresh55]

Whatever. Anti freeway thugs can kiss my tail. The freeway will get built. You already live in a sprawling metropolitan area. Not building the freeway is stupid. Building the freeway as a parkway is stupid. The road should have at least 5 lanes in each direction. New tribal leadership is in support of putting the freeway on tribal land. Tribal members will support freeway construction and it will be constructed. It's been on the books for 28 years now and will have monumental effects on improving the future flow of traffic on the stretch of the 10 between Pecos Road all the way to at least 51st Avenue. We the People have approved the construction of this freeway TWICE and its what we want. Anti freeway goons need to move to Tucson, Portland, or some other anti-economic development, anti-free market hellhole. Imagine the Valley without its freeway system. It would be an absolute disaster. The freeway won't encourage additional sprawl if it's going on tribal land. Unless the tribe approves additional development, it's not as if any developer can just build some random subdivision or mall on GRIC land.


I lived in both Phoenix and Tucson and I agree that freeways are just something you have to have in sprawling cities like Phx, LA and Tucson. Besides that....our society is just not accustomed to mass public transportation like European and Asian countries. Too many states wanted to just expand on the interstate and local highway systems and there was no real focus for mass and local railway systems. I think it is moving ahead now...but it may also be too little, too late to get a massive railway system in this country. Sorry...but living here in Tokyo and seeing how local rail ways can interact with mass rail ways (Shinkansen) show that the Japanese did it right and they started about 50 years ago. Of course...Japan is a smaller country, but still...Tokyo has almost 40 million people and the railway network is still sophisticated and punctual as all hell.


Enough with this rant.....Phoenix has sprawled too much already...just put the freeway in already and do it right.

[N830MH]

I have been noting the construction being cleaned up around the monorail, rode my bike by last night and the fences were coming down. I couldn't see much, was going too fast, but yeah... It looked ready.

Actually, it's called PHX SkyTrain, but not an monorail.

[exit2lef]

Why not merge this into the Metro Phoenix Transit / Transportation Developments thread? It seems to fit under that broad heading, and the South Mountain Freeway needs to be considered in the context of other transportation projects.

[PHX31]

I also agree with putting this freeway in, in theory... assuming not too much additional sprawl (some is inevitable), and it truely works well as a heavy truck reliever through central phoenix. I-10 has by far the highest heavy truck percentage of any phoenix area freeway. Getting a large chunk of them off the lanes through the central city could do wonders for congestion and safety. Also, my biggest hope would be that the 202 relieves I-10 enough so that ADOT will shelve their I-10 expansion plans through the city. They are still preliminarily designing some sort of mega 24-lane stretch through phoenix to the east valley, at least to the 60. That is ridiculous in my mind. That area could truly benefit from rail and/or BRT expansion... not a uber mega laned nightmare.

[exit2lef]

I also agree with putting this freeway in, in theory... assuming not too much additional sprawl (some is inevitable), and it truely works well as a heavy truck reliever through central phoenix. I-10 has by far the highest heavy truck percentage of any phoenix area freeway. Getting a large chunk of them off the lanes through the central city could do wonders for congestion and safety. Also, my biggest hope would be that the 202 relieves I-10 enough so that ADOT will shelve their I-10 expansion plans through the city. They are still preliminarily designing some sort of mega 24-lane stretch through phoenix to the east valley, at least to the 60. That is ridiculous in my mind. That area could truly benefit from rail and/or BRT expansion... not a uber mega laned nightmare.

Everything I've read suggests ADOT would like to do both: Build the South Mountain Freeway and widen 1-10 at the Broadway curve. I wouldn't agree to the former with the hope that it would prevent the latter. Also, the truck route justification for the South Mountain Freeway, originally given as a reason for the road back in the '80s and '90s, isn't heard much anymore. These days, the calls to build the South Mountain Freeway seem loudest from Laveen residents who believe the road will bring more amenities to their part of town.

[Vicelord John]

Actually, it's called PHX SkyTrain, but not an monorail.

Thanks so much for correcting me, because certainly no one knew what I was talking about until you logged in and clarified.

[N830MH]

Thanks so much for correcting me, because certainly no one knew what I was talking about until you logged in and clarified.

You are quite welcome. I appreciate that. Soon, PHX SkyTrain is schedule to open sometime on Feb 6, 2013. If those date is subject to change without notice.

We have wait for official date to be set. We will find out soon enough.