Metro Phoenix Transit/Transportation Developments [Archive] - Page 67

exit2lef

Apr 12, 2019, 6:00 PM

The FTA this week also gave Seattle's Sound Transit's Federal Way light rail extension (https://www.kentreporter.com/news/federal-way-light-rail-extension-clears-key-hurdle-toward-federal-grant/) next-step approval. The FTA grant would be for $790 million or 25% of the projected $3.1 billion project cost. At 7.8 miles with only three stations this come to a lovely $397 million per mile. That compares to the South Central line at ~$140 million per mile.

Hopefully, voters make the smart decision in August.

I don't know the particulars of the extension to Federal Way, but Seattle's light rail runs underground or on an elevated track along much of its route. That's necessary because of the city's numerous hills and bodies of water. It has the effect of increasing costs per mile, but it also makes the system faster and gives it more a of a big-city subway feel. Phoenix opened its starter line one year before Seattle, which followed in 2009. Both systems then opened their first extensions in 2016. For a while, it seemed like the two cities were proceeding with rail investment at essentially the same pace; however, Seattle has clearly taken the lead now, and if this vote doesn't go well, the contrast will become even more striking.

CrestedSaguaro

Apr 12, 2019, 6:08 PM

Hopefully, voters make the smart decision in August.

These kind of things tend to happen in trends and there has been a trend of negative publicity with LRT over the last few months. Voters tend to remember bad publicity over good publicity and I am fearful of a different outcome on this. Having 2 future extensions getting put on hold, the South Central close to getting axed all-together and all of the other negative news (reports of homelessness on the trains, crime increases at 19th Ave/Dunlap, etc..) just needs to go away. We could really use some good positive news about LRT before the next ballot that will be fresh in voters minds at the polls.

exit2lef

Apr 12, 2019, 6:33 PM

CrestedSaguaro

Apr 12, 2019, 6:35 PM

This announcement just came out from Senator Sinema's office:

https://www.sinema.senate.gov/sinema-announces-phoenix-south-central-light-rail-project-clears-key-hurdle

Apparently, the FTA has given certain work essential for the South Central extension a green light, even as we get closer to a vote designed to kill the project.

So can the project break ground before it gets to the ballot or does the court loss put the project temporarily put on hold until it goes to the polls again?

DesertRay

Apr 12, 2019, 6:38 PM

This announcement just came out from Senator Sinema's office:

https://www.sinema.senate.gov/sinema-announces-phoenix-south-central-light-rail-project-clears-key-hurdle

Apparently, the FTA has given certain work essential for the South Central extension a green light, even as we get closer to a vote designed to kill the project.

I hope the city goes ahead and builds this link. Let these hucksters be put beneath the headstone on the grave they dug.

TakeFive

Apr 12, 2019, 7:28 PM

I don't know the particulars of the extension to Federal Way, but Seattle's light rail runs underground or on an elevated track along much of its route. That's necessary because of the city's numerous hills and bodies of water. It has the effect of increasing costs per mile, but it also makes the system faster and gives it more a of a big-city subway feel. Phoenix opened its starter line one year before Seattle, which followed in 2009. Both systems then opened their first extensions in 2016. For a while, it seemed like the two cities were proceeding with rail investment at essentially the same pace; however, Seattle has clearly taken the lead now, and if this vote doesn't go well, the contrast will become even more striking.

Very true about meeting topographical challenges; also true that Seattle like to go First Class. The Federal Way extension has a lot of elevated sections; it follows I-5 for the most part.

The project you're likely thinking of was the University extension which had a 4-mile tunnel and was worth the effort as ridership doubled over the next year.

In February they opened a new tunnel for cars that replaced a viaduct. Two miles at close to $4 billion costs.

The 4.3 mile, $1.9 billion Northgate extension from downtown will have 3.5 miles of twin tunnels.

Their 14-mile, $3.7 billion East Link extension to Bellevue under construction does have a 1,985-foot tunnel.

TakeFive

Apr 12, 2019, 7:41 PM

So can the project break ground before it gets to the ballot or does the court loss put the project temporarily put on hold until it goes to the polls again?
This is an engineering approval not a full funding grant but that can now be assumed to follow. Even if they broke ground that wouldn't prevent the project from being stopped depending on legal stuff... I have no clue.

This announcement just came out from Senator Sinema's office:

https://www.sinema.senate.gov/sinema-announces-phoenix-south-central-light-rail-project-clears-key-hurdle

Apparently, the FTA has given certain work essential for the South Central extension a green light, even as we get closer to a vote designed to kill the project.

Looks like the same next-step as what Seattle received including up to a $530 million grant.

I feel good about the pending vote; there's a very good case to be made. Plus, many voters can now see improvements to their neighborhood streets and it can be explained how more of that is coming.

exit2lef

Apr 13, 2019, 12:50 PM

Even if they broke ground that wouldn't prevent the project from being stopped depending on legal stuff... I have no clue.

I suspect that if the South Central extension breaks ground before the vote occurs and if the vote is to curtail light rail expansion, there will then be a messy court battle over the meaning of "new" vs. "existing" light rail. A judge would have to decide which label fits for a project already under construction. Scott Smith, CEO of Valley Metro, indicated during a recent presentation that there might even be court battles over capital spending necessary to keep the existing line functioning.

DesertRay

Apr 13, 2019, 3:00 PM

I suspect that if the South Central extension breaks ground before the vote occurs and if the vote is to curtail light rail expansion, there will then be a messy court battle over the meaning of "new" vs. "existing" light rail. A judge would have to decide which label fits for a project already under construction. Scott Smith, CEO of Valley Metro, indicated during a recent presentation that there might even be court battles over capital spending necessary to keep the existing line functioning.

Part of me hopes that if people vote for this, the entire tax goes completely away in a court case, and that everyone has to beg for money for roads again. This is beyond stupid.:koko::koko:

CrestedSaguaro

Apr 15, 2019, 2:14 PM

Part of me hopes that if people vote for this, the entire tax goes completely away in a court case, and that everyone has to beg for money for roads again. This is beyond stupid.:koko::koko:

It's just stupid that we need to vote on something that was already voted on twice and passed both times. Talk about wasting taxpayer money and trying to stick it in the face of the people that voted for this. Building a Better Phoenix should be a shamed of themselves and I hope after this time, they drift off quietly into the dust and forgotten.

exit2lef

Apr 15, 2019, 4:01 PM

It's just stupid that we need to vote on something that was already voted on twice and passed both times.

Thrice!

Phoenix voters have said yes to light rail all these times:

March 2000 -- Transit 2000, the original city tax for light rail and expanded bus service
November 2004 -- Proposition 400, the countywide tax that allocates funds for a mix of rail, bus, and roads
August 2015 -- Proposition 104, aka Transit 2050, the city tax that extends and increases the Transit 2000 revenue to provide a stable funding source long into the future

Of course, rail opponents will claim that rail by itself has never been subject to a pure, unbundled up-or-down vote. They're technically correct, but neither have street improvements or bus service. Different modes of transport are typically bundled in order to come with an optimal mix that balances priorities. What's really toxic about the Building a Better Phoenix initiative is that it doesn't just unbundle transportation funding, it creates a zero-sum game in which one mode is unnecessarily pitted against another.

Sun Belt

Apr 15, 2019, 4:46 PM

Thrice!

Phoenix voters have said yes to light rail all these times:

March 2000 -- Transit 2000, the original city tax for light rail and expanded bus service
November 2004 -- Proposition 400, the countywide tax that allocates funds for a mix of rail, bus, and roads
August 2015 -- Proposition 104, aka Transit 2050, the city tax that extends and increases the Transit 2000 revenue to provide a stable funding source long into the future

Of course, rail opponents will claim that rail by itself has never been subject to a pure, unbundled up-or-down vote. They're technically correct, but neither have street improvements or bus service. Different modes of transport are typically bundled in order to come with an optimal mix that balances priorities. What's really toxic about the Building a Better Phoenix initiative is that it doesn't just unbundle transportation funding, it creates a zero-sum game in which one mode is unnecessarily pitted against another.

I saw your post in the Light Rail Boom thread.

How in the heck is this allowed? What I hate is when voters have clearly spoken and then along comes some entity/group that says, "we don't care what voters want, we're going to have it our way because we think we know better".

CrestedSaguaro

Apr 15, 2019, 4:57 PM

I saw your post in the Light Rail Boom thread.

How in the heck is this allowed? What I hate is when voters have clearly spoken and then along comes some entity/group that says, "we don't care what voters want, we're going to have it our way because we think we know better".

Also, there is a ton of pavement restoration going on around my area. Building a Better Phoenix is basically inflating the streets issue by making it sound like no is street-work is getting done anywhere. Right now Cave Creek, Thunderbird, 19th Ave and a few others are all being resurfaced. I had to do do a lot of dodging around while driving around over the weekend. Yea, the city might be behind on street resurfacing, but it IS doing it. I hate the misinformation Build a Better Phoenix is laying out there.

TakeFive

Apr 15, 2019, 5:08 PM

It's just stupid that we need to vote on something that was already voted on twice and passed both times. Talk about wasting taxpayer money and trying to stick it in the face of the people that voted for this. Building a Better Phoenix should be a shamed of themselves and I hope after this time, they drift off quietly into the dust and forgotten.

There is no shame in politics. Our daily tweet storm establishes that.

How in the heck is this allowed? What I hate is when voters have clearly spoken and then along comes some entity/group that says, "we don't care what voters want, we're going to have it our way because we think we know better".
No reason why voters shouldn't be allowed to change their mind. Under different circumstances this could be a very good thing.

Vegas nixes light rail (https://www.nevadacurrent.com/2019/04/11/light-rail-proposal-derailed-rtc-opts-to-support-rapid-bus-instead/)
Last week RTC decided to go with BRT instead of light rail since it was 35% of the light rail cost. As much as I support BRT, in this case this appeared to be an ideal light rail corridor.
The recent public comment period brought in 759 comments: 72 percent in favor of light rail, 13 percent preferring bus rapid transit, and 4 percent supporting either light rail or bus rapid transit. Favoring light rail were members of the business community who argued it would spawn more development than any bus ever could, and residents who felt light rail would help bring Las Vegas to the modern age.
The reasoning of the RTC Board sounded like a conservative manifesto. They did rightly point out that costs to operate light rail would run $13.3 million per year whereas BRT is projected to cost $8.3 million. Light rail is definitely more expensive to operate and maintain.

Also, there is a ton of pavement restoration going on around my area. Building a Better Phoenix is basically inflating the streets issue by making it sound like no is street-work is getting done anywhere. Right now Cave Creek, Thunderbird, 19th Ave and a few others are all being resurfaced. I had to do do a lot of dodging around while driving around over the weekend. Yea, the city might be behind on street resurfacing, but it IS doing it. I hate the misinformation Build a Better Phoenix is laying out there.
Ran into some other streets yesterday as well. Picked up a rider in Sunnyslope headed down to Cammelback to enjoy some jazz and jambalaya who also mentioned all the road work including on her way to work in Scottsdale. It's spreading like a virus.

TakeFive

Apr 15, 2019, 6:16 PM

Speaking of ride-sharing

I picked up a nice young chap off of Cave Creek and Pinnacle Peak Roads who had spent the day with his gf. He lives at the Catholic Manor right off Black Canyon near McDowell and gf's mom paid the tab. After dropping him off, somehow I ended up on Grand Ave going the wrong way (from what I wanted). Been so long since I've been in the specific area I was 'lost' (it was very dark) but I did enjoy what they've done along the way. Ended up taking 3rd ave north through Willo; even at night it was obviously a cool area.

Then there's the occasional most interesting trips. Picked up a rider near Indian School and 36th street. Elder gal who claimed she also did some Uber driving at Sky Harbor. Wanted to make a Walgreen's run so I showed her how to add - create a round trip in the app. Said she had a bad day so I asked what happened; said her son-in-law was killed... Oh my, that is a bad day; except she didn't seem too concerned over his loss but her daughter had her car at the time and the police impounded the car. An so that ends my 'as the world turns' for a Sunday.

muertecaza

Apr 15, 2019, 11:27 PM

At the City Council meeting Wednesday, the Council will vote on directing staff to analyze and provide recommendations on accelerating the timeline for the Capitol/I-10 light rail extension. Mendoza, Nowakowski and Williams signed on to the letter putting it on the agenda, and described the extension as making a "significant difference" for westside residents.

Hopefully between this and the progress in federal funding for the South Central extension, there can be some positive momentum that RonnieFoos rightly noted Valley Metro has been lacking.

exit2lef

Apr 15, 2019, 11:54 PM

I saw your post in the Light Rail Boom thread.

How in the heck is this allowed? What I hate is when voters have clearly spoken and then along comes some entity/group that says, "we don't care what voters want, we're going to have it our way because we think we know better".

Arizona and most of its cities are generous with allowances for citizen initiatives. It's an outgrowth of the state constitution being written in the progressive era. For the most part, I think that's good. Recently, that feature has allowed citizen-led efforts to raise the minimum wage when the state legislature wouldn't, and it has allowed voters to thwart an expansion of vouchers by the legislature for private school attendance. It's failing, though, in allowing an outspoken minority and an unholy alliance of the far left and the far right to potentially undo the results of three prior elections, creating huge uncertainty in the planning and FTA funding processes.

TAZ4ate0

Apr 16, 2019, 12:20 AM

It's failing, though, in allowing an outspoken minority and an unholy alliance of the far left and the far right to potentially undo the results of three prior elections, creating huge uncertainty in the planning and FTA funding processes.

True. Why are we putting items to vote yet again that was already approved by majority vote already. The majority spoke, and it ticks me off that special interest groups and lobbyists are not satisfied.

exit2lef

Apr 16, 2019, 12:39 PM

True. Why are we putting items to vote yet again that was already approved by majority vote already. The majority spoke, and it ticks me off that special interest groups and lobbyists are not satisfied.

I should add that the although supporters of this initiative claim there has never been a straight up-or-down vote on light rail alone, the Building a Better Phoenix doesn't offer that scenario. A straight up-or-down vote would simply ask Phoenix voters if they wish to continue to pay the tax to fund light rail expansion. If they choose not to expand light rail, then the tax associated with it should go away. Instead, Building a Better Phoenix doesn't question the underlying tax and simply proposes reallocating it for street repairs.

DesertRay

Apr 16, 2019, 2:49 PM

I should add that the although supporters of this initiative claim there has never been a straight up-or-down vote on light rail alone, the Building a Better Phoenix doesn't offer that scenario. A straight up-or-down vote would simply ask Phoenix voters if they wish to continue to pay the tax to fund light rail expansion. If they choose not to expand light rail, then the tax associated with it should go away. Instead, Building a Better Phoenix doesn't question the underlying tax and simply proposes reallocating it for street repairs.

Yup. All or nothing. Then, come back begging and see who wants to pay for their pet project.

TakeFive

Apr 16, 2019, 5:45 PM

South Central Light Rail project set to receive over $500m from Federal Transit Administration (http://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/arizona-news/south-central-light-rail-project-set-to-receive-over-500m-from-federal-transit-administration)
Apr 12 2019 By Matt Galka, FOX 10
"We're gonna support any chance to kill the light rail," said Celia Contreras We're gonna take any chance because the light rail is a pet project for a little group. It's a corruption."

Contreras, a business owner, is worried light rail construction would kill her business, but she wants money earmarked for the project to stay in South Phoenix.
Sounds like a good argument to me...

...to vote against the initiative. A few malcontents wanting to 'kill all light rail' because of their opposition to one project should sound over-the-top for most voters I'd hope.

exit2lef

Apr 16, 2019, 6:09 PM

South Central Light Rail project set to receive over $500m from Federal Transit Administration (http://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/arizona-news/south-central-light-rail-project-set-to-receive-over-500m-from-federal-transit-administration)
Apr 12 2019 By Matt Galka, FOX 10

Sounds like a good argument to me...

...to vote against the initiative. A few malcontents wanting to 'kill all light rail' because of their opposition to one project should sound over-the-top for most voters I'd hope.

The word "corruption" is incredibly overused and abused. Unless Contreras can prove that bribes, kickbacks, or other illegal activities are involved, the word should not be invoked. A decision that you don't like might be bad policy, but that doesn't make it corruption.

CrestedSaguaro

Apr 16, 2019, 6:22 PM

The word "corruption" is incredibly overused and abused. Unless Contreras can prove that bribes, kickbacks, or other illegal activities are involved, the word should not be invoked. A decision that you don't like might be bad policy, but that doesn't make it corruption.

Contreras is an uninformed small-business owner that has no real knowledge of how this all works. Watching her speak at the city council hearings comparing the Central Avenue road width to handmade drawings she presented as if these were an accurate measurement of what the road can accommodate when it comes to emergency vehicles and such. It's a little more involved than that. But I guess she knows more than engineers/surveyors who spend their careers designing these things and that her hand-drawn depictions are more accurate when it comes to light rail design? Also, Federal money cannot be spent elsewhere outside of mass transit. How many times does this need to be said before they get it? I wish someone would paint that on her shop, "Federal...transit...funds...cannot..be...used...for...street...repairs".

TAZ4ate0

Apr 16, 2019, 7:09 PM

Also, Federal money cannot be spent elsewhere outside of mass transit. How many times does this need to be said before they get it? I wish someone would paint that on her shop, "Federal...transit...funds...cannot..be...used...for...street...repairs".

Bingo!

Good grief I fail to understand why these people do not get that simple fact.

TakeFive

Apr 16, 2019, 7:11 PM

Looking ahead to August

At the City Council meeting Wednesday, the Council will vote on directing staff to analyze and provide recommendations on accelerating the timeline for the Capitol/I-10 light rail extension. Mendoza, Nowakowski and Williams signed on to the letter putting it on the agenda, and described the extension as making a "significant difference" for westside residents.
This is interesting and a plus.

While it may be a small to modest sample size, in addition to what RonnieFoos has described I've seen plenty of other street improvements also. Couple half-block patches along E Bell, 5 blocks of redone pavement with nice new bike lanes along Grover. Sunday I noticed streets in mid-town that were presumably done last year. I don't get to the west side so much but I've also seen some work there.

City Council has re-directed some funding to roads; eliminating all light rail sounds radical. City Council has been reasonably responsive to residents; no radical treatments needed (or wanted) is what I'm thinking will prevail.

RichTempe

Apr 17, 2019, 3:21 AM

Bingo!

Good grief I fail to understand why these people do not get that simple fact.

Probably for the same reason they were clueless about the project in general despite years of public meetings and discussion. :koko:

exit2lef

Apr 17, 2019, 11:00 PM

ASU Diablo

Apr 17, 2019, 11:40 PM

The Association of General Contractors has filed an appeal of the recent court decision in favor of Building a Better Phoenix:

https://www.azhighground.com/blog/post/contractors-file-appeal-on-light-rail-decision

I’m glad to see this as well as their willingness to take it up to the State Supreme Court, if necessary

exit2lef

Apr 18, 2019, 5:49 PM

Last night, the city council voted to have staff look at an early start to the community engagement process for the Capitol / 1-10 light rail extension. I thought at first this was an effort to speed up construction, but Thelda Williams worded this more in terms of avoiding a scenario like South Central where there is a perception of insufficient community engagement. Of course, it doesn't matter how many meetings are held, there will still be opposition that emerges at the last minute, claiming they were never informed. Nowakowski then added that staff should also look at any possibility of speeding up construction, and Mendoza echoes those sentiments, noting that this line had previously been delayed. The council finally passed a muddled motion by a 7-2 margin.

biggus diggus

Apr 18, 2019, 5:52 PM

This is a very backwards town in many ways.

TAZ4ate0

Apr 18, 2019, 6:28 PM

This is a very backwards town in many ways.

So many people, even those in power, still have the mentality that this is still the same Phoenix as it was from the 1960's, 70's and 80's. :/

Obadno

Apr 18, 2019, 7:10 PM

This is a very backwards town in many ways.

The vast majority of people in Phoenix dont use public transit, its hard in any city to get support for something most dont use.

PHXFlyer11

Apr 18, 2019, 7:16 PM

The vast majority of people in Phoenix dont use public transit, its hard in any city to get support for something most dont use.

But if it doesn't exist how can people use it? It's a horse and cart scenario. You need to build more lines so that it's more accessible. Right now only works for those that live directly on the line.

Also, pouring money into road repairs instead does not help the problem. The roads aren't getting wide rand will only deteriorate quicker with more cars on them as growth continues to explode. Transit is the only financially acceptable and capacity acceptable solution for the future.

CrestedSaguaro

Apr 18, 2019, 7:56 PM

But if it doesn't exist how can people use it? It's a horse and cart scenario. You need to build more lines so that it's more accessible. Right now only works for those that live directly on the line.

Also, pouring money into road repairs instead does not help the problem. The roads aren't getting wide rand will only deteriorate quicker with more cars on them as growth continues to explode. Transit is the only financially acceptable and capacity acceptable solution for the future.

Precisely. I'm also sure it's passed 3 measures because people want it to come to them so they can use it. Have there been any polls in Phoenix on whether or not people would use the lines if they were built? It would be interesting to see how the majority feel (but in all honestly, I think the mass transit initiatives already passing tells us the answer).

biggus diggus

Apr 18, 2019, 8:55 PM

muertecaza

Apr 18, 2019, 9:10 PM

Has anyone attempted to create a percentage based equation for the amount of time spent in a car vs the amount of time light rail would take for the same trip? I'm just curious if it's static enough to say something along the lines of "this trip would take 120% of time on light rail as it would in a car". That would be very helpful in knowing how long a trip you could make on light rail before it just didn't make sense to try.

This would be especially important for longer trips like Mesa to downtown. I don't think light rail at Gilbert road makes any sense, it's just so far away. I think the results would be better and support would be better if the city drew a line and said alright we are only going 12 miles from the city center, or something like that. And then beefed up bus service and looked at commuter rail for outlying areas.

I've never seen anything like that, but I would love to see it. It would be hard in my mind to get an accurate methodology that takes into account wait time between trains, car traffic, etc. But I'd support the attempt.

Also agree regarding the long trips. I work in downtown Tempe and take the train often to go to downtown Phoenix for work. It is incredibly convenient for me, as I have short walks on both ends, and a relaxing and productive ride in between. And though I've never timed the trips, my sense is that the time for the train vs. a car are about equal. But trips any longer than that can be very long. I live in Mesa, for instance, and do not enjoy taking the train from Mesa Dr. to Downtown for Suns/Diamondbacks games. It takes over an hour typically, it's crowded coming home and you occasionally have trains that go out of service at the airport and further delay the return trip. I still do it sometimes out of philosophical support for light rail, but I wouldn't blame anyone for not doing it.

xymox

Apr 18, 2019, 9:19 PM

I've never seen anything like that, but I would love to see it. It would be hard in my mind to get an accurate methodology that takes into account wait time between trains, car traffic, etc. But I'd support the attempt.

Also agree regarding the long trips. I work in downtown Tempe and take the train often to go to downtown Phoenix for work. It is incredibly convenient for me, as I have short walks on both ends, and a relaxing and productive ride in between. And though I've never timed the trips, my sense is that the time for the train vs. a car are about equal. But trips any longer than that can be very long. I live in Mesa, for instance, and do not enjoy taking the train from Mesa Dr. to Downtown for Suns/Diamondbacks games. It takes over an hour typically, it's crowded coming home and you occasionally have trains that go out of service at the airport and further delay the return trip. I still do it sometimes out of philosophical support for light rail, but I wouldn't blame anyone for not doing it.

My experience on light rail from Tempe to Downtown PHX is that car is faster by 10 minutes at the very least. The rail route seems to take 25-30 minutes and you can more or less make the same trip in a car in 15 minutes easily. This is not during rush hour - but it was during lunch hour.

To me, unless you live along the rail - its generally not any faster than the same trip by car.

Very likely faster than the same bus ride though...

biggus diggus

Apr 18, 2019, 9:20 PM

I once took an uber to 19th and Northern (from my house on Central) to take the light rail to Tempe for a booster event - I knew I'd be drinking and I figured it'd be painless. It took me over an hour to Veterans Way so I took an uber home.

It's relatively painless getting downtown, took the bus down Central (picks up at my front door more or less) for about 25 of the basketball games this year - some times I transferred to light rail at Camelback. Easy. Anything further than that is out of the question.

CrestedSaguaro

Apr 18, 2019, 9:24 PM

Well, for me it takes me about 35 to 40 minutes in rush hour by car to drive about 9 miles from my home to work. I do alternate between driving and taking the LRT. From the Dunlap/19th station to the Osborn/Central station, rail takes me about 22 minutes. Add that I need to get to the park and ride (about 5 minutes by car) wait a few minutes at the station and then walk into work from the Osborne station, the total time is right around 35 minutes complete trip. I have timed it many times, so I have a pretty good idea of the average time is for both. Add to that I can relax on the train and read my phone, not deal with drivers and save on gas. Also, I have yet to be delayed getting to work by train versus when I have been late by car due to accidents or whatnot. Light-rail for me beats driving any day that I have used it.

xymox

Apr 18, 2019, 9:24 PM

The vast majority of people in Phoenix dont use public transit, its hard in any city to get support for something most dont use.

I just drove that stretch of central to get from downtown to South Mountain park with some visitors from out of state. In its current state - it took FOREVER. I cannot imagine what that trip will be like once they remove one lane and put in the rail.

I can see why people there were insistent on 4 lanes - its not enough to handle current traffic flow - why make it worse? I'd need to see the data on how much of that traffic is local vs not to say for sure if the rail would help here - but it seemed pretty clear to me removing that lane isn't the answer by any stretch of the imagination.

biggus diggus

Apr 18, 2019, 9:35 PM

I think people's habits will change and Central will become a street not used for cross town travel, it's pretty clear from recent action that Phoenix wants traffic on the 7s not on central.

CrestedSaguaro

Apr 18, 2019, 9:35 PM

I just drove that stretch of central to get from downtown to South Mountain park with some visitors from out of state. In its current state - it took FOREVER. I cannot imagine what that trip will be like once they remove one lane and put in the rail.

I can see why people there were insistent on 4 lanes - its not enough to handle current traffic flow - why make it worse? I'd need to see the data on how much of that traffic is local vs not to say for sure if the rail would help here - but it seemed pretty clear to me removing that lane isn't the answer by any stretch of the imagination.

I've done the drive to South Mountain so many times. It does take a while for such a short distance. However, there seems to be a lot of stop lights, slow drivers, etc. I've never really seen it too busy with cars...just always moderate. I know it's kind of an after thought, but maybe a 3 lane/auxillary lane configuration with the tracks on 1 side of Central instead of in the center? Then flip the auxiliary lane during rush hour as the 7's do when traffic is the heaviest and they need 2 lane flow? Has any lines in the country done anything like this? Crazy thought, I know.

Another thought is, I believe there is an abandoned railroad track between Central and one of the 7's (not sure which). Could this line have been retrofitted to run a dedicated LRT line down (not sure where the old track terminated)? When I lived in Salt Lake, there were a couple of dedicated lines that didn't run along roads. Has Phoenix studied dedicated lines at all?

Classical in Phoenix

Apr 18, 2019, 10:04 PM

biggus diggus

Apr 18, 2019, 10:07 PM

Another thought is, I believe there is an abandoned railroad track between Central and one of the 7's (not sure which). Could this line have been retrofitted to run a dedicated LRT line down (not sure where the old track terminated)? When I lived in Salt Lake, there were a couple of dedicated lines that didn't run along roads. Has Phoenix studied dedicated lines at all?

I don't know of an abandoned line that could be used. There's an old line that crossed under the 17 at about 3rd Street but it only went as far as the river. There's a line running along 11th Avenue but again it didn't cross the river and 11th Avenue is too far west.

ASU Diablo

Apr 18, 2019, 10:08 PM

Obadno

Apr 18, 2019, 10:12 PM

But if it doesn't exist how can people use it? It's a horse and cart scenario. You need to build more lines so that it's more accessible. Right now only works for those that live directly on the line.

Also, pouring money into road repairs instead does not help the problem. The roads aren't getting wide rand will only deteriorate quicker with more cars on them as growth continues to explode. Transit is the only financially acceptable and capacity acceptable solution for the future.

Im not hating on rail btw im just pointing out political reality.

The light rail isnt conveineint enough to enough people to have limitless support.

It seems like in a general election sense, people generally will vote yes. I typically would, but I say that as somebody who hasnt used light rail in years and I even live on it and never take it.

Now imagine you are a councilment for people in North Phoenix or Ahwatukee

Even if the GE vote shows support for light rail your districts are likely against it.

CrestedSaguaro

Apr 18, 2019, 10:12 PM

I don't know of an abandoned line that could be used. There's an old line that crossed under the 17 at about 3rd Street but it only went as far as the river. There's a line running along 11th Avenue but again it didn't cross the river and 11th Avenue is too far west.

Yea, I think that's the one I was referring to. I didn't know where it went or anything. Was just throwing it out there with ideas...not that they're going anywhere. :haha:

Obadno

Apr 18, 2019, 10:14 PM

I think people's habits will change and Central will become a street not used for cross town travel, it's pretty clear from recent action that Phoenix wants traffic on the 7s not on central.

Central is already useless for cross town travel. literally the 3rds and the 7's and 16th street are all better distence options

CrestedSaguaro

Apr 18, 2019, 10:39 PM

Now imagine you are a councilment for people in North Phoenix or Ahwatukee

But yet, trying to tell voters in other districts how they should vote because you primarily represent a geographically isolated region of Phoenix (not you personally...DiCiccio). Granted District 6 also covers the Paradise Valley Mall area, so some say there. But that area honestly is very far removed from inner Phoenix areas that can really use LRT. Ahwutukee, IMO, really doesn't have any say in mass transit since they will never have it. North Phoenix at least has a choice and there was a modest proposal to bring it to the Paradise Valley Mall until it was stopped. I'm not sure of the Proposition 104 results on a district basis. I tried looking them up, but can't find anything. Does anyone have this information? Would like to see the vote percentage from each district...especially 6.

exit2lef

Apr 18, 2019, 10:48 PM

But yet, trying to tell voters in other districts how they should vote because you primarily represent a geographically isolated region of Phoenix (not you personally...DiCiccio). Granted District 6 also covers the Paradise Valley Mall area, so some say there. But that area honestly is very far removed from inner Phoenix areas that can really use LRT. Ahwutukee, IMO, really doesn't have any say in mass transit since they will never have it. North Phoenix at least has a choice and there was a modest proposal to bring it to the Paradise Valley Mall until it was stopped. I'm not sure of the Proposition 104 results on a district basis. I tried looking them up, but can't find anything. Does anyone have this information? Would like to see the vote percentage from each district...especially 6.

PV Mall is in District 3, rather than District 6. The portion of District 6 that might benefit most from light rail is the Biltmore area. It's fairly dense in both residential and commercial terms and would be easy to reach via a 2.5-mile spur from the current line. If the Northeast extension were ever built, it might serve the western edge of the Biltmore area via an SR51 alignment, but that's off the table for now.

CrestedSaguaro

Apr 18, 2019, 10:54 PM

PV Mall is in District 3, rather than District 6. The portion of District 6 that might benefit most from light rail is the Biltmore area. It's fairly dense in both residential and commercial terms and would be easy to reach via a 2.5-mile spur from the current line. If the Northeast extension were ever built, it might serve the western edge of the Biltmore area via an SR51 alignment, but that's off the table for now.

Ah, OK. I didn't zoom in close enough on the district map and just seen Paradise Valley and it looked like it was in district 6. Zoomed closer in and I see it's definitely in 3. So, Sal has a little more say then since he represents the Camelback/Biltmore areas.

Any info on the 104 vote count by district?

TakeFive

Apr 18, 2019, 11:07 PM

The Association of General Contractors has filed an appeal of the recent court decision in favor of Building a Better Phoenix:

https://www.azhighground.com/blog/post/contractors-file-appeal-on-light-rail-decision
Best Quote: Judge Stephens’s opinion was written as if she knew this matter would be appealed, and she was right.”

The vast majority of people in Phoenix dont use public transit, its hard in any city to get support for something most dont use.
Not really; I was just speaking with Harry last week and this is his view: "if Sally Sue who lives in that corner house and Billy Bob who lives two blocks over plus his cousin Snake Eyes would use this newfangled transit and get out of my way then I could have a nice easy drive." In other words many think they might or might not utilize it but if at least others do then it's better for everybody.

Good timing and good arguments are keys too.

Has anyone attempted to create a percentage based equation for the amount of time spent in a car vs the amount of time light rail would take for the same trip? I'm just curious if it's static enough to say something along the lines of "this trip would take 120% of time on light rail as it would in a car".
I have an attorney friend and transit fan who's ridden various systems in different parts of the globe who finally gave up taking light rail in Denver because it's too-damn-slow and his time had become more valuable.

Edit: Ah, I see we have other good anecdotal examples.

exit2lef

Apr 18, 2019, 11:17 PM

Any info on the 104 vote count by district?

I can't find my way to a results map now, but I remember seeing one shortly after the August 2015 election. Predictably, it showed that support diminished in the northern portions of Phoenix and Ahwatukee, but I believe the proposition passed in the North Central, Biltmore, and Arcadia areas of District 6.

TakeFive

Apr 18, 2019, 11:23 PM

Im not hating on rail btw im just pointing out political reality.

The light rail isnt conveineint enough to enough people to have limitless support.

It seems like in a general election sense, people generally will vote yes. I typically would, but I say that as somebody who hasnt used light rail in years and I even live on it and never take it.

That's reasonable.

Phoenix voters could kill light rail to these 6 neighborhoods (https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2019/04/15/phoenix-voters-could-kill-light-rail-august-election-impacted-neighborhoods/3450879002/)
April 15, 2019 by Jessica Boehm, Arizona Republic
If passed, the Building a Better Phoenix Initiative would halt all light-rail spending and cancel all light-rail projects approved by voters in 2015. Those extensions are:

South Central (connecting the current line to Baseline Road via Central Avenue).
Capitol/I-10 West (connecting current line to state Capitol and 79th Avenue park and ride.
Northwest Phase II (connecting current northwest line to Metrocenter Mall).
ASU West (connecting Metrocenter Mall to Arizona State University's West Campus).
West Phoenix/Camelback (connecting the current line to Grand Canyon University and 43rd Avenue and Camelback Road).
Northeast (connecting current line to Paradise Valley Mall).

Any more good news?
The initiative would also forbid the city from funding any other future light rail extensions or fixed rail (commuter rail or Amtrak train).
Why should voters like this?
If the initiative passes, the city's sales tax revenue will divert to other transportation projects, including sidewalk improvements, road repairs and new bus systems. The Phoenix Citizens Transportation Commission will recommend how the money should be spent.
If I put my Average Joe and Juanita hat on this doesn't sound bad at all.

But as I've previously indicated it's a radical change and that's how it needs to be portrayed.

muertecaza

Apr 18, 2019, 11:29 PM

That's reasonable.

Phoenix voters could kill light rail to these 6 neighborhoods (https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2019/04/15/phoenix-voters-could-kill-light-rail-august-election-impacted-neighborhoods/3450879002/)
April 15, 2019 by Jessica Boehm, Arizona Republic

Any more good news?

Why should voters like this?

If I put my Average Joe and Juanita hat on this doesn't sound bad at all.

But as I've previously indicated it's a radical change and that's how it needs to be portrayed.

Does Phoenix have a Voter Protection Act-type law similar to the state statute? If so, someone should hire whoever crafted the strategy for APS to oppose the renewable mandates last elections. The opposition to this initiative doesn't have the emotional appeal of the "California billionaire carpetbagger" that the opposition to that initiative had, but it does have the argument that it would hamstring the City against currently unknown future contingencies (which to me was one of the most effective arguments against the renewables initiative).

TakeFive

Apr 18, 2019, 11:56 PM

Updating better surface roads

I ran into some fresh smooth neighborhood roads NE of Tatum and Greenway.

Then thanks to a couple of Asian chaps who wanted to go from the JW Marriott Desert Ridge all the way around to the casino at 91st(?) and Northern I found myself on the west side. After a couple of decidedly blue-collar trips, one from a guy - late 50's I'd guess - who I provoked into chatting; he told me great stories about his pluming job of work for new-builds on the West Side in the hay days of 2002 til 2006; then when business started slowing his company laid off everybody and went out of business.

Anyway I then turned off the App and headed east on Northern. From (wherever) the city line is to I-17 was nicely fresh and smooth. Then I turned north on 19th Ave and from Northern to Dunlap was also shiny and smooth. After a sketchy sounding rider along the west side of the freeway cancelled before I could find her, I decided I'd had enough of the west side and called it a night. :runaway:

TAZ4ate0

Apr 19, 2019, 12:31 AM

Quite honestly, I think the Building A Better Phoenix anti LRT initiative is going to fail. Either it gets shut down in court, or voters will approve it yet again.

I have some arguments as to why I say that. No one has mentioned them yet. But I'll save them for now because I am on my phone and too hard to write a long explanation ATM.

combusean

Apr 19, 2019, 1:18 AM

Nothing like biting your nose to spite your face: light rail doesn't serve my neighborhood, so I'm going to vote against it arriving in the future. I have a higher opinion of Phoenix voters than that however.

The fact that I'm hearing about the BBP's plan to kill *all* rail just now shows how shady they are.

That all being said, it's very important to consider that T2050 passed somewhat narrowly in a low-turnout off-year election that have historically leaned left with the influences of city employees.

If this does make it to the ballot, the timing will be critical. A transit referendum in a general election would be frightening.

TakeFive

Apr 19, 2019, 2:22 AM

^ I wonder if this had anything to do with the appeal; I'd assume they can get an injunction for delay of vote in August until all appeals are settled? Plus it should eat into their money currently available to promote their initiative.

xymox

Apr 19, 2019, 4:46 AM

U sound like you’re part of the Build a Better Phoenix group lol Valley Metro did studies and it will actually be slower to travel down Central with 4 lanes versus two

Why such accusations? I'm part of no such group - I don't even live in the area. I'm just sharing my observations after having driven the actual route after a very long time.

It was congested mid-day during the week in its current configuration. I can't see how it'd be any slower in a 4 lane configuration + rail - unless they are thinking the light rail is going to add more wait times for left turns. If they are truly wanting people to travel the 7s to get down there and avoid central - then I can follow the logic that their plans would make it 'faster' - as most that current traffic would leave central. But if that's the case then the businesses along Central have a valid complaint about taking business away as the daily commute people are now on two different streets.

exit2lef

Apr 19, 2019, 12:09 PM

A transit referendum in a general election would be frightening.

Proposition 400, the countywide tax that provides funding for rail, roads, and buses, passed in the November 2004 general election. It can be done.

ASU Diablo

Apr 19, 2019, 6:34 PM

Why such accusations? I'm part of no such group - I don't even live in the area. I'm just sharing my observations after having driven the actual route after a very long time.

It was congested mid-day during the week in its current configuration. I can't see how it'd be any slower in a 4 lane configuration + rail - unless they are thinking the light rail is going to add more wait times for left turns. If they are truly wanting people to travel the 7s to get down there and avoid central - then I can follow the logic that their plans would make it 'faster' - as most that current traffic would leave central. But if that's the case then the businesses along Central have a valid complaint about taking business away as the daily commute people are now on two different streets.

It was sarcasm.

You responded that no wonder the BBP Group was pushing for 4 lanes due to traffic/congestion concerns. In reality, Valley Metro’s study confirmed 2 lanes would be faster due to dedicated left-turn lanes

combusean

Apr 19, 2019, 9:44 PM

Proposition 400, the countywide tax that provides funding for rail, roads, and buses, passed in the November 2004 general election. It can be done.

Prop 400 wasn't a transit referendum. It was almost exclusively sold to voters as a pro-car measure (Finish the freeways!) and its inclusion of light rail was extensively campaigned against.

I have very low expectations of a transit-only measure passing in Phoenix. Mayyybe it could eke by in an off-year election, but not in a general.

xymox

Apr 20, 2019, 4:08 AM

Prop 400 wasn't a transit referendum. It was almost exclusively sold to voters as a pro-car measure (Finish the freeways!) and its inclusion of light rail was extensively campaigned against.

I have very low expectations of a transit-only measure passing in Phoenix. Mayyybe it could eke by in an off-year election, but not in a general.

Well transit only has had a historical challenge in this town - I remember in the last 80s after I moved here there was the push for Valtrans - elevated train lines. That failed miserably at the ballot.

I would like to see a strong vision for the next 30 years of transportation in the valley. I know there are some attempts at this - but it all feels like there's no sense of urgency or vision. Would be nice to see a strong push for multi-nodal commuter rail to address the longer commutes, then fill in with light rail & bus lines for local. Add a few freeways/expressways to help (i.e. finish Northern Parkway to SR-51, extend L303 to SR-87, etc). Build the bullet train to Tucson. Then put it up for vote. I think something like this could be successful.

I think we need to do a lot more than simply add 1 more lane to key freeways (i.e. L101) and a few more miles of light rail to support a near doubling of population over the next 30 years. It will be quickly become a nightmare across all commuting options if we don't come up with an aggressive plan.

exit2lef

Apr 20, 2019, 9:25 PM

I had an opportunity yesterday to visit the two miles of Main Street in Mesa between Mesa Drive and Gilbert Road. That's the segment where the latest light rail extension will open in May. It's not a long segment -- just two miles and two stations, but it's still nice to see light rail expansion occurring in Mesa despite all that's happening to thwart it in Phoenix. The work is nearly done, and the rebuilt section of Main Street looks quite neat. It goes down to one lane in each direction with flaring for turn lanes at intersections. There are also bike lanes and a roundabout intersection at Horne, the collector street halfway between Stapley and Mesa Drive. I like roundabouts and knew what to expect, but I was still still surprised to see how quickly the arm on the crossing gate descends when a train approaches. I was driving at the time and had to brake pretty firmly to stop short of it. The crossing gate is there to prevent cars from driving in front of trains when making a turn through the roundabout across the tracks. It does not affect traffic traveling straight on Main. Also, the 50th Street Station in Phoenix, an infill project between the existing stations at 44th Street and Priest, will open for passenger service this Thursday, April 25.

TakeFive

Apr 21, 2019, 10:17 PM

I would like to see a strong vision for the next 30 years of transportation in the valley. I know there are some attempts at this - but it all feels like there's no sense of urgency or vision.

I think we need to do a lot more than simply add 1 more lane to key freeways (i.e. L101) and a few more miles of light rail to support a near doubling of population over the next 30 years. It will be quickly become a nightmare across all commuting options if we don't come up with an aggressive plan.

What you suggest makes a lot of sense.

One thing that could help is the rising gas prices. I notice it; it's up about 30% since the 1st of the year. It could continue rising but who knows?

One thing that has worked in Colorado is regional bus service. Tried and failed in the past, this time it has caught on. CDOT (aka ADOT) runs buses along the east-west (I-70) and north-south (I-25) freeways. They've doubled the service and would like to expand it more but finding enough bus drivers is a problem. Similarly RTD's BRT service between Boulder and Denver has also been a Big success and more buses had to be added. What make the difference is time-efficiency with few stops and the nice coaches used with Wi-Fi on board. Denver RTD also has trouble finding bus drivers; they're currently over 100 drivers short. Not sure how this might work in metro Phoenix but the obvious appeal is bus service that is competitive ie convenient and speedy appeals to people.

TakeFive

Apr 21, 2019, 10:40 PM

I had an opportunity yesterday to visit the two miles of Main Street in Mesa ... The work is nearly done, and the rebuilt section of Main Street looks quite neat. It goes down to one lane in each direction with flaring for turn lanes at intersections. There are also bike lanes and a roundabout intersection at Horne,

That type of street makeover is appealing with center running BRT as well. Phoenix should consider doing both especially since the cost is about three to one.

exit2lef

Apr 21, 2019, 10:46 PM

That type of street makeover is appealing with center running BRT as well. Phoenix should consider doing both especially since the cost is about three to one.

Mesa had BRT on Main a few years ago. Then it came to its senses and decided to extend light rail to Gilbert Road.

TakeFive

Apr 22, 2019, 12:23 AM

Mesa had BRT on Main a few years ago. Then it came to its senses and decided to extend light rail to Gilbert Road.

:haha: :haha: :haha:

In any case MAG has been feeling xymox's vibes with respect to Prop 500:

https://azbex.com/valley-transportation-planners-imagine-another-sales-tax-extension/
The details of “Imagine” are, in every sense, yet to be determined ... Thomas outlined a four-year plan of research, analysis and development to determine what the Valley needs and what its residents want. Thomas and her colleagues started running focus groups back in October and have set a goal to conduct a survey with more than 50,000 participants.
Please, no more freeways.
She hopes the resulting “Imagine” proposition will be a plan that provides residents with multiple choices for transportation, and said that increasing options is the way to avoid congestion, as new freeway space is limited and the Valley continues to sprawl.
MAG figures they lost a $billion in tax revenue due to the Great Recession.
“I’m telling you right now, we have more needs than funding will allow to support,” she said.

Thomas said they will use the next few years as a time to really reevaluate the future of Valley transportation. The Valley has changed since 2005 when Prop. 400 was first passed, and regional planners want to use the money for what the area needs. And according to Thomas, that will be tricky.
Give me some hints, please.
Planners may also explore the possibility of regional bus rapid transit or even implementation of a commuter rail to make it easier to travel between Valley cities.

But Imagine’s success will ultimately depend on whether Thomas and her colleagues will be able to communicate their vision to Maricopa County voters.

Now that I'm getting to know my way around, commuter rail should run from Sky Harbor down the 202 and then south along the 101 to Chandler for starters. Might as well use commuter rail west along I-10 also. Glendale Ave is prime for "enhanced" bus service to include all-door boarding, dedicated lanes (at least during peak periods), TSP and Queue Jump Lanes (as are few other corridors).

City of Phoenix is a separate topic.

CrestedSaguaro

Apr 22, 2019, 3:32 AM

...and a nice AZ Central article putting a big hit on LRT and the upcoming vote in August. I don't know why I read AZ Central. Sigh...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.azcentral.com/amp/3474301002

exit2lef

Apr 22, 2019, 3:48 AM

...and a nice AZ Central article putting a big hit on LRT and the upcoming vote in August. I don't know why I read AZ Central. Sigh...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.azcentral.com/amp/3474301002

AZ Central should be embarrassed to have run this. The conclusion mentioned in the headline is technically correct, but almost meaningless in the absence of context. Sure, a few billion might be freed for other uses, but even more money from regional and federal sources would vanish overnight. This piece reinforces a problem with so many news organizations. Many papers are now placing an increased emphasis on fact checking. That's good, but so often the task is assigned to a junior reporter who doesn't have enough background on the issue to understand all the nuances involved.

In other news, AZ Central has endorsed Carlos Garcia for the District 8 city council seat. Garcia tries to downplay his role in putting all light rail expansion in jeopardy with these words:

"Garcia explained that he supports light rail and that he got involved only because city hall ignored area residents and business owners in the first place. He said the effort, which was to make the extension better, has been essentially 'hijacked' by light rail opponents."

Sounds like convenient blame shifting to me. Garcia needs to acknowledge that the Frankenstein monster he helped create is out of control and outline what specific steps he'll take to kill it.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/editorial/2019/04/21/carlos-garcia-mike-johnson-phoenix-council-who-best/3504611002/

TakeFive

Apr 22, 2019, 6:30 AM

AZ Central should be embarrassed to have run this. The conclusion mentioned in the headline is technically correct, but almost meaningless in the absence of context.

Hmm, is it possible you didn't read the whole piece? I read a lot of context which greatly clarifies the issue even if there's some differences at the margin.

"Garcia explained that he supports light rail and that he got involved only because city hall ignored area residents and business owners in the first place. He said the effort, which was to make the extension better, has been essentially 'hijacked' by light rail opponents."

Sounds like convenient blame shifting to me. Garcia needs to acknowledge that the Frankenstein monster he helped create is out of control and outline what specific steps he'll take to kill it.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/editorial/2019/04/21/carlos-garcia-mike-johnson-phoenix-council-who-best/3504611002/

It's entirely likely IMO that the "Frankenstein monster" is but a paper tiger. I didn't follow his specific involvement but I welcome his current position.

TakeFive

Apr 22, 2019, 7:09 AM

...and a nice AZ Central article putting a big hit on LRT and the upcoming vote in August. I don't know why I read AZ Central. Sigh...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.azcentral.com/amp/3474301002

Did you actually read the whole piece?

Looking for their weak spots...
It also would forbid the city from funding any future light rail extensions or fixed rail, such as commuter rail or Amtrak.

At first blush voters may see the benefits and voters like to make positive decisions. But the bulk of voters don't respond to (local issues) so well if it's promoted by haters and it's even worse if we're talking about carpet bagging haters. The hate against all future rail of any kind Forever and Ever, Amen (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgJXbIP83A8) is beyond the pale. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=St6jyEFe5WM)

It should be easy to separate issues. There's the South Central extension which is opposed by some neighborhood malcontents but not even a majority... and over $500 million in federal grants would be lost forever.

Then there's the anti-everything rail crowd and its forever nonsense which is clearly over-the-top. In addition to South Central all we're looking at now is the Metro Center extension and maybe I-10. Given how much has already been reallocated to roads I expect voters to be more reasonable than to fall for this extreme anti-rail craziness.

Note: No question there's a Cato Institute/Americans for Prosperity crusade promoting buses as a lever to prevent rail projects. A guy has been frequenting Denver Streetsblog and his arguments are nothing but Cato/Randal O'Toole talking points. What they especially want is to eliminate all federal support for rail. And yes, exit2lef I vigorously make him look stupid in hating on light rail since he doesn't know what he's talking about re: Denver.

DesertRay

Apr 22, 2019, 11:55 AM

Did you actually read the whole piece?

Looking for their weak spots...

At first blush voters may see the benefits and voters like to make positive decisions. But the bulk of voters don't respond to (local issues) so well if it's promoted by haters and it's even worse if we're talking about carpet bagging haters. The hate against all future rail of any kind Forever and Ever, Amen (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgJXbIP83A8) is beyond the pale. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=St6jyEFe5WM)

It should be easy to separate issues. There's the South Central extension which is opposed by some neighborhood malcontents but not even a majority... and over $500 million in federal grants would be lost forever.

Then there's the anti-everything rail crowd and its forever nonsense which is clearly over-the-top. In addition to South Central all we're looking at now is the Metro Center extension and maybe I-10. Given how much has already been reallocated to roads I expect voters to be more reasonable than to fall for this extreme anti-rail craziness.

Note: No question there's a Cato Institute/Americans for Prosperity crusade promoting buses as a lever to prevent rail projects. A guy has been frequenting Denver Streetsblog and his arguments are nothing but Cato/Randal O'Toole talking points. What they especially want is to eliminate all federal support for rail. And yes, exit2lef I vigorously make him look stupid in hating on light rail since he doesn't know what he's talking about re: Denver.

Great analysis. I hope that if this doesn't get blocked on appeal, the pro light-rail absolutely frame this as a "THEY WANT TO TAKE AWAY EVERYONE'S CHOICES FOREVER" matter (which is how this is going down). We could have a reasonable conversation about balance of funding/location of rail/more support of streets if we didn't have a bazooka pointed at all of our heads.

exit2lef

Apr 22, 2019, 4:44 PM

Hmm, is it possible you didn't read the whole piece? I read a lot of context which greatly clarifies the issue even if there's some differences at the margin.

I read everything. Yes, there is some context provided later, but the headline is what most people take away, and it's extraordinarily oversimplified and exaggerated. Equally disappointing is the rating of "four stars, true." It should have been rated "two stars, partially true." While some funds may be diverted for other uses, federal and regional funds will no longer be available to Phoenix and will flow to other places.

TakeFive

Apr 22, 2019, 7:34 PM

the headline is what most people take away, and it's extraordinarily oversimplified and exaggerated.

Ahh, I understand where you're coming from. I would have given it four stars too, though.

Consider good propaganda
Whether Streetsblog or Sean Hannity etal; they often start with a premise that is obviously true and factual. Two things to look for: how they move to making assumptions ie connect dots that shouldn't be connected starting from their factual premise(s). Equally important is what they don't say. That can take some thinking about.

If you take money previously designated for light rail and make it available to spend on other things then that's what you do. Hard to argue with simplistic if its common sense. That doesn't mean it's good policy; doesn't mean other things shouldn't be considered.

Simplistic can be highly effective. "Make America Great Again" (who can argue with that?). "Yes We Can" or "Sí se puede" and yes, he did.

CrestedSaguaro

Apr 22, 2019, 7:41 PM

If you take money previously designated for light rail and make it available to spend on other things then that's what you do. Hard to argue with simplistic if its common sense. That doesn't mean it's good policy; doesn't mean other things shouldn't be considered.

Not at the costs of trying to get mass transit off of any future initiatives whatsoever. This isn't trying to divert money for immediate needs to roads to repair or what-not. This is just a masked anti-rail movement in it's entirety.

combusean

Apr 22, 2019, 9:49 PM

What you suggest makes a lot of sense.

One thing that could help is the rising gas prices. I notice it; it's up about 30% since the 1st of the year. It could continue rising but who knows?

One thing that has worked in Colorado is regional bus service. Tried and failed in the past, this time it has caught on. CDOT (aka ADOT) runs buses along the east-west (I-70) and north-south (I-25) freeways. They've doubled the service and would like to expand it more but finding enough bus drivers is a problem. Similarly RTD's BRT service between Boulder and Denver has also been a Big success and more buses had to be added. What make the difference is time-efficiency with few stops and the nice coaches used with Wi-Fi on board. Denver RTD also has trouble finding bus drivers; they're currently over 100 drivers short. Not sure how this might work in metro Phoenix but the obvious appeal is bus service that is competitive ie convenient and speedy appeals to people.

I've long thought Phoenix needs express "core connector" buses that collapse the time it takes to get from one village core/activity center to the other. Local buses and even light rail for long haul trips is too slow. Eg, something that went from Deer Valley Airport to Metrocenter to the Capitol to Downtown rather than lumber around on 19th Ave all day long.

vwwolfe

Apr 23, 2019, 1:47 PM

When I was looking at light rail schedules on Valley Metro's website, it looks like light rail service will start running all night on Friday nights in May. Am I wrong about this? I've not heard that mentioned before.

Obadno

Apr 23, 2019, 4:24 PM

exit2lef

Apr 23, 2019, 6:09 PM

I don't think that Valley Metro is officially going to 24-hour service, but it may look like that on Friday and Saturday nights. On those evenings, the last train in each direction leaves its respective point of origin at 2 AM. That run will take about 90 minutes. The train will then turn around and make a partial run to 44th Street for eastbound trains and Priest for westbound trains before turning into the operations and maintenance center for the night. What does that mean in practical terms? Say you are leaving Gilbert/Main on a westbound train. If you are going anywhere in Mesa in Tempe, you could leave as late as 3:40 AM. If, however, you are going farther west into Phoenix, the last train would leave at 2:00 AM. The same is true for eastbound trains leaving from 19th Ave / Dunlap. Since service starts again for the next day at around 4:45 AM, there is still a gap of just over two-and-a-half hours for people making long trips. For shorter trips, the break is only about an hour. I know this might not make sense, but if you're ever out really late, you'll notice some trains replace their usual destination signs with something like "44th St / Washington" to indicate they're making a shorter run before spending some time at the operations and maintenance center.

Obadno

Apr 26, 2019, 5:19 PM

WOAH, Crazy intersection planned for the i-17 expansion at Indian School and the 17.

Triple Decker intersection.

https://www.azdot.gov/docs/default-source/transportation-studies/i-17-indian-school-ti-project-timeline.pdf?sfvrsn=2

https://www.azdot.gov/planning/transportation-studies/i-17-indian-school-road-traffic-interchange-study/overview

3d models: https://www.flickr.com/photos/arizonadot/albums/72157705482278811/with/47176626251/

CrestedSaguaro

Apr 26, 2019, 5:26 PM

exit2lef

Apr 26, 2019, 6:26 PM

^The flyover ramps seem a way of compensating for the lack of a central east-west freeway. Since heavy volumes of traffic are using arterial streets for long drives across town, having an express option for traffic not getting on or off the freeway makes sense. I wonder if Valley Metro buses could use those to speed up trips, or if that would mean missing stops close to the freeway interchange. The pedestrian bridges have potential. I hope they're actually shaded instead of just having a mesh top.

TakeFive

Apr 26, 2019, 8:02 PM

^ Presumably in a decade or two that could be used by BRT. :tup:

ASU Diablo

Apr 26, 2019, 8:18 PM

exit2lef

Apr 26, 2019, 8:18 PM

^ Presumably in a decade or two that could be used by BRT. :tup:

That's true. BRT with limited stops could certainly use the flyover ramps while local bus service stays in the slower ground-level zone. Unfortunately, I think the anti-rail forces that have coalesced in recent months will oppose true BRT, especially if it involves a dedicated lane.

TakeFive

Apr 26, 2019, 10:30 PM

That's true. BRT with limited stops could certainly use the flyover ramps while local bus service stays in the slower ground-level zone. Unfortunately, I think the anti-rail forces that have coalesced in recent months will oppose true BRT, especially if it involves a dedicated lane.

Hopefully by then those clowns will be no more than irrelevant nuisance.

But you make a good point about separate routes. Denver's busiest bus route instead of being light rail like Phoenix has done is (finally) planning BRT for the corridor. East Colfax already has 'limited' and 'local' service routes. The center-running lanes will only cover about half of the 10 miles and will otherwise be curbside service. Both routes will continue and will use the same center lane stops over that segment and then move to the curb with different stops. At least that's what I've heard - pending FTA funding and they're just now finishing their EA stuff. Point being there's advantages for having both local and express service along the same corridor.

DesertRay

Apr 27, 2019, 3:22 PM

exit2lef

Apr 27, 2019, 4:52 PM

This is EXACTLY who was most vocal against BRT in Albuquerque. There were other mitigating factors, but the backbone of this were the same folks who cry and whine about LRT. These folks aren't going away, so we need to keep pounding the benefits of these multi-modal options.

Exactly. When fighting against rail projects, anti-transit voices claim that buses can do everything cheaper and with more flexibility than trains, but when it comes to making buses faster and more efficient by giving them their own lane, expect a fight. For them, the emphasis on buses is a perfunctory way to show that they want to do something for the transit-dependent, but it's really about the supremacy of cars.

exit2lef

Apr 29, 2019, 12:47 PM

Valley Metro has set May 18 as the date for the opening of the light rail extension to Gilbert Road. With this milestone, two more miles of track will open, along with stations at Stapley/Main & Gilbert/Main.

https://www.valleymetro.org/sites/default/files/uploads/event-resources/gre_opening_celebration_flier_english.pdf

Classical in Phoenix

Apr 29, 2019, 6:44 PM

https://www.skyharbor.com/media/PressReleases/2019/04/29/phoenix-sky-harbor-achieves-new-milestone

March was a record breaking month.

N830MH

Apr 30, 2019, 6:53 AM

Yep. They plan on doing this to most of the major intersections along I-17. Pretty crazy design.

I can't agree with you! I never ever seen that before! A triple decker?!? We don't have a triple decker here in Phoenix.

WOAH, Crazy intersection planned for the i-17 expansion at Indian School and the 17.

Triple Decker intersection.

https://www.azdot.gov/docs/default-source/transportation-studies/i-17-indian-school-ti-project-timeline.pdf?sfvrsn=2

https://www.azdot.gov/planning/transportation-studies/i-17-indian-school-road-traffic-interchange-study/overview

3d models: https://www.flickr.com/photos/arizonadot/albums/72157705482278811/with/47176626251/

OMG! A triple decker?!? Wow! I didn't even know that!

Valley Metro has set May 18 as the date for the opening of the light rail extension to Gilbert Road. With this milestone, two more miles of track will open, along with stations at Stapley/Main & Gilbert/Main.

https://www.valleymetro.org/sites/default/files/uploads/event-resources/gre_opening_celebration_flier_english.pdf

Nice! That's good to know. Hopefully they should be done very well. Keep doing it!

https://www.skyharbor.com/media/PressReleases/2019/04/29/phoenix-sky-harbor-achieves-new-milestone

March was a record breaking month.

Please used a existing thread. Here's a link:

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=238632

TJPHXskyscraperfan

Apr 30, 2019, 3:56 PM

I can't agree with you! I never ever seen that before! A triple decker?!? We don't have a triple decker here in Phoenix.

OMG! A triple decker?!? Wow! I didn't even know that!

Nice! That's good to know. Hopefully they should be done very well. Keep doing it!

Please used a existing thread. Here's a link:

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=238632

Yeah, that’s a pretty old concept but effective. They have these in Detroit. Google Earth where 8 Mile RD crosses the I 75 and see how old those bridges are.

TJPHXskyscraperfan

Apr 30, 2019, 4:01 PM

Obadno

Apr 30, 2019, 8:14 PM

I figured Camelback had more traffic than Indian School and I 17. I guess with the Central corridor buildings basically starting at Indian School, more people get off the freeway at Indian School as opposed to Camelback or Thomas? Indian School has 25 percent more traffic that Camelback and 40 percent more than Thomas!

The Camelback Exit seems to be larger in general and less congested than Indian school, sometimes I will get off at Camelback or Thomas just to avoid the traffic.

biggus diggus

Apr 30, 2019, 8:16 PM

I find that exiting NB 17 onto Camelback is an exercise in futility some days, have seen it backed up a half mile onto the freeway on many occasion.

N830MH

May 2, 2019, 5:36 AM

I find that exiting NB 17 onto Camelback is an exercise in futility some days, have seen it backed up a half mile onto the freeway on many occasion.

Yeah, we realize that. Too many traffic! We avoided Camelback Rd & Indian School Rd.

The Camelback Exit seems to be larger in general and less congested than Indian school, sometimes I will get off at Camelback or Thomas just to avoid the traffic.

Yeah, way too congestion on Camelback Rd & Indian School Rd. They always too busy! You could stuck at the streets.

DesertRay

May 2, 2019, 3:38 PM

Looks like Sal keeps some REALLY shady company.

Council Member Sal DiCiccio Distances Himself From Patriot Movement AZ (https://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/phoenix-councilman-cuts-ties-with-arizona-anti-migrant-group-11279135)
STEVEN HSIEH | MAY 2, 2019 | 7:00AM

Phoenix City Council Member Sal DiCiccio is distancing himself from the anti-immigrant group Patriot Movement AZ after Phoenix New Times inquired about a staffer who asked the group to promote a political message.

Patriot Movement AZ is is known for yelling at church volunteers helping asylum-seekers, questioning the immigration status of dark-skinned legislators, and targeting the home of Congressman Ruben Gallego with a demonstration.

DiCiccio's move comes a year after Governor Doug Ducey received backlash for posing in a photo with members of the group. Ducey spoke out against Patriot Movement AZ after getting hit with criticism from both sides of the aisle.

DiCiccio constituent services representative Merissa Hamilton asked a Patriot Movement AZ leader to promote the council member's Facebook statement against a proposal to study pedestrian deaths in Phoenix, according to messages obtained by Phoenix New Times through a public records request. DiCiccio opposed the proposal in his post, claiming it was nothing more than an attempt to lower speed limits citywide.

Earlier that day, Hamilton appears to have contacted Patriot Movement AZ founder Lesa Antone, sending her a link to DiCiccio's post via Facebook Messenger.

"They are trying to force everyone to use public transportation by making the speed limit on every road 25 mph," Hamilton said.

Vision Zero would not have implemented any policy changes. It only would have required the city to study pedestrian deaths and make recommendations for improvements.

Antone did not respond to Hamilton.

About 10 minutes later, Patriot Movement leader Russell Jaffe sent Hamilton a message saying, "Lesa is in FB jail. She can see you at [sic] messaging her but not what it is. If you need her send to me or you can text her." (The phrase "Facebook jail" refers to when the social media company restricts a user's access to site features due to a violation of policy.)

Hamilton responded with the link to DiCiccio's statement. "I need that blasted," she said.

"Oh yeah I saw that. I'll put it out," said Jaffe, who was arrested for assault during a November protest in Tucson.

"And people to show up on Tuesday to the city council meeting," Hamilton added.

Shortly after the exchange, the Patriot Movement AZ Facebook page shared DiCiccio's statement. The group urged followers to show up at City Hall to speak against Vision Zero. A moderator for the group noted that the message was from "our good friend Councilman Sal DiCiccio."

The friendship no longer appears mutual.

In response to questions from New Times, DiCiccio spokesperson Sam Stone said regarding Patriot Movement AZ: "Councilman DiCiccio does not condone their actions." Stone said Hamilton sent DiCiccio's Vision Zero message to "all her contacts that day."

He added that, to his knowledge, the council member's office has not directly communicated any other message to the group and that he has asked Hamilton to exclude Patriot Movement AZ from any further plans.

Hamilton, a former libertarian candidate for governor, did not respond to request for comment.

She spoke with New Times about her relationship with Patriot Movement AZ during the April 15 "Patriotism Over Socialism" rally for conservatives in Gilbert.

Hamilton said she met Patriot Movement AZ while searching for Republican groups to help a man she claimed was wrongfully incarcerated, who she said she met through the controversial activist Jarrett Maupin. Patriot Movement AZ was the only group that responded, she said.

"Although their stance against Muslims is something I disagree with, although their stance against immigration is something I disagree with — in the way they carry it out and some other things — they were the only one who was there for" the man Hamilton was working with, she said.

Hamilton added: "We've had discussions on what my viewpoint is and what their viewpoint is. I have made a decision that I will work with people on things we align on and on the things we don't align on I will work to change their opinions on those issues."

An administrator for the Patriot Movement AZ Facebook page did not respond to request for comment. The Southern Poverty Law Center-designated hate group started to generate headlines after two women affiliated with it were arrested for burglarizing a Tempe mosque.

One of Patriot Movement AZ's former leaders, Jennifer Harrison, recently started a new group called AZ Patriots, which has been focused on making trips to the southern border.