Metro Phoenix Transit/Transportation Developments

[Tfom]

Awesome - TYFAMQ

[andrewkfromaz]

That took me way too long to figure out.

[Tfom]

In your defense, I made it up.

[andrewkfromaz]

I feel somewhat less embarrassed.

[HooverDam]

I honestly think one of the main reasons they are so set on I-10 being the corridor is because of the costs.

I think I mentioned in this thread, or someone did (Im too lazy to scroll up, its 1:32AM and Im beat), but from what it sounds like, to get federal funding, they feds look at speed. They use that as a big indicator for which states they give money to. So if you can have LRT running down a highway at 55mph instead of 35mph on a surface street, you have a higher chance of getting federal dollars.

I'm all for TOD, but is it really a viable option for Maryvale and the west side of Phoenix?

Yes!

I'm overly optimistic (often to a fault), but I think it could be done. Your point about current transit users not caring about TOD is a valid one, but its something that they probably want, but just don't know it. Everyone wants to live in a unique neighborhood with a sense of community and place, whether they consciously think about it or not, and it seems to me that TOD leads to that (it would certainly distinguish an area from Phoenix's 'Sea of Sameness').

Let say 'my' alignment for LRT is implemented, I see lots of opportunities. First off of course is the entire stretch to the Capitol down Washington. Amazingly there are still dirt lots there, maybe they could house future government buildings, more service type businesses (most Capitol workers have to drive downtown to eat or do whatever), or residences (probably rentals for those who work in the area.)

The second big area for TOD/redevelopment would be the 19th/McDowell/Grand intersection. Phoenix is VERY lucky the Coliseum didn't get knocked down like arenas/stadiums elsewhere, and knowing Phoenix's pension for the bulldozer, we're doubly lucky. Sadly the Madhouse is surrounded mostly by a sea of parking spaces, but it could be nearly anything. Retail, condos, apartments, heck a college! In my super dream world some college turns those wide open parking lots into wide plazas and grassy areas (enough to still support the State/County fairs) and uses the Coliseum as their main sports and events venue (this is obviously a ridiculous dream, but its 1:40AM-shhhh!).

Heck, as long as I'm being ridiculous, maybe a trolly could run up the 1.5 mile stretch of Grand from 7th Ave/Grand/Van Buren to 19th/McDowell/Grand. That would really probably get things going on 'Lower Grand" and turn it into a TOD area that would be very distinct and special. Also, while we're at it, bring back the Ash Trees (I believe thats what it was) that Grand was originally intended to have. There are still some, but apparently there used to be many more.

As the route heads west on McDowell there are lots of old buildings that could be revamped, but also (as is the Phoenix way) plenty of dirt lots. According to Google Maps satellite view (which is certainly not the most up to date thing in the world) there are lots of lots on McDowell between 32nd and 35th Avenue. Theres more lots between 39th and 41st Ave as well. I could go on and on, but you get the point.

I do think Maryvale has some potential building blocks that not a lot of places in the Valley have. Obviously, the prices are low, so thats a plus for smaller developers. More importantly though, Maryvale has a name, it has a history, it has an identity (one thats slowly turning negative, but an identity none the less). As has been noted, in Phoenix its common for someone to say "I live on X street and Y street" not in "Neighborhood X". People can actually say "I live in Maryvale" and it means something. Near Maryvale Stadium there is a lot of potential for midrise office (like that near the Scottsdale Airpark) which could create a mini downtown Maryvale (as silly as that sounds).

Though I don't know how all of that would really matter, as Maryvale is significantly North of McDowell. Unless of course you run a LRT line North/South on 51st Avenue. That would connect nicely w/ a line running down Glendale through their downtown and out to the stadium. It could continue North to ASU West and work out pretty slick.

Anyway, Im just ramblin' and dreamin'. I remember that guy who was on Phx 11 (again, too lazy/tired to look it up) said something like the Valley currently has 2 walkable urban areas (Mill Ave and Old Town), and DC has something like 22, with more coming online soon. I say dream big. Phoenix has already developed via the car into a multi hubbed city, its not a far cry to imagine these various hubs developing further into distinct mini, walkable, urban cores.

[exit2lef]

Thanks for sharing more of your vision, HooverDam. For the record, I completely agree about the potential for TOD in the Capitol area and near the fairgrounds. It's the area west of I-17 where I have my doubts, but I'd love to be wrong. It will be interesting to see what decision is made about this.

[combusean]

This conversation of whether TOD could work in Maryvale could have been had 10 years ago about Washington St. On Washington, it was probably more the width of the right-of-way and connecting two points--downtown Phoenix and Tempe--rather than any overt potential for TOD. Van Buren beats Washington for that, but that's not how it came to be.

But we are seeing good projects come up--Union Square on 12th St and I think some of the office developments like Washington Point. Both are on the periphery of more established areas, so while the stretch of Washington St in between is an utter wasteland, that stretch of nasty should get shorter over the years as it gets redeveloped from both sides in.

Without much research to the area's history, I think for its proximity to Maryvale Desert Sky has never done that well but it's so rare you get a mall AND a concert pavilion that are close enough together. The westward sprawl has created a reason to fill it out somewhat in the last few years but there's still a lot of dirt in the area. We would do well to fill it out right.

The same can be said for the fairgrounds. I wonder long and hard about stadiums and arenas that barely last 40 years in many cities yet Veterans Memorial Coliseum soldiers on. Yes, it gets used--not without the neighbors fussing of course. But for how often the grounds are used does Phoenix still need the State Fair right there that close to the core?

I like the general idea of Phoenix holding the State Fair but it's likely one of those things that we would do well to pass the torch--sort of like how Chandler doesn't have Spring Training anymore as it's "grown up" past the point of needing to invest in something like that. Pinal County is still very agrarian and the Gila River tribe has done well getting its share of attractions--the casinos, Firebird Lake, Westworld, etc. Since it's almost impossible to get good, thorough mixed use on an Indian reservation, something implicitly requiring low density like the Fairgrounds would work very well there.

Absent any obvious reason to demolish the Coliseum such as building safety or any other sort of money pit, it would do well at the center of a revitalized urban zone endcapping Lower Grand. There's a great potential for a multimodal transit connection there given the BNSF railroad tracks in the immediate vicinity. There are historic structures and obviously the history of the Fair and other events to draw from to create something unique. It's also a very big site and Phoenix doesn't have many of those in the central city.

Desert Sky and the Fairgrounds as nodes don't at all compare to DT Phoenix and Tempe--they never will, but as nodes they still need more "there" there to balance out what they do bring. For the points in between, we would have to get out of the idea that everywhere around the tracks--like 43rd Avenue--could support 140 - 190'ish midrises like we're seeing so far for the other outer-core areas. Maybe we can get those heights later on--especially for VMC/Desert Sky--but it would be poor planning to pepper them everywhere along new routes even if they're proposed as realistic.

It is very reasonable to expect 6ish-story developments in a TODified Maryvale that really put people on the sidewalks through the right streetside design, long chunks of the street fixed at once, and affordability.

The taller you go the more these crucial tenets fall by the wayside, let alone every other issue to consider. There's the neighborhood compatibility issues--not everybody thinks highrises looming over homes are a good idea. There's the "stolen market" from Down/Mid/Uptown for highly vertical living or yet another office core. There's the chance that speculated land values would make or break long-time, impoverished residents or just blow everything away like downtown Phoenix in the 1970's.

That's why Maryvale is one of the best places I can think of for TOD. The neighborhood will likely ensure the success of any new development by keeping them at the right price and scale. The neighborhood's own success will be realized through an appropriate transition and the right level of investment.

[PhxSprawler]

My damn workload is preventing me from staying timely in the SSP forums! It sucks!

Anywho, I am skeptical that Maryvale would be the best place for TOD development, but believe that a route connecting DT Phoenix to DT Glendale IS the best option. There is plenty of ghetto to be transformed in between. Downtown Glendale is oozing with potential. It could become the next old town Scottsdale if it played its cards right, and it is a good center when carrying any line to Buckeye or Surprise.

Also, we have to look no further than Apache Blvd to show how light rail can change a ghetto neighborhood. It is still quite run down in that area, but changes are happening quickly!

[tempedude]

I have noticed that Metro is (quietly?) repairing the damaged light rail track where it had cracked in a few locations, and the cracks appeared only at the locations where the track drains were installed apparently. They have something like 10 foot sections ripped up around the damaged areas from what I can tell.

[combusean]

I have a meeting scheduled with a I-10 West project manager next week. If there's anything you guys would like for me to bring up feel free to let me know. :)

[HooverDam]

I have a meeting scheduled with a I-10 West project manager next week. If there's anything you guys would like for me to bring up feel free to let me know. :)

Just the stuff we've already discussed. Push for BRT along the 10 and LRT along a surface street somewhere that promotes new TOD zoning and connectivity to the Capitol, the Fairgrounds, the Desert Sky area, etc.

[combusean]

^ Yeah ... that's basically it. I also think commuter rail should be explored in the I-10 median given UP's lameness.

[Sekkle]

I don't know if the ridership of a commuter rail service can justify the capital cost of putting in that much new rail. It would certainly have much lower ridership projections than light rail (less frequent trips, fewer stations, etc). That's likely the reason you rarely hear of entirely new commuter lines built in the US these days (i.e. lines that do not share freight right of way and/or existing freight tracks).

[Tfom]

So I have a question for you guys who may be a little more in the know on how things are leaning with the cities mass transit. I am buying the house I live in now which is literally right next to the fairgrounds. What would you say the chances are that Light Rail will have a stop for the fairgrounds (either by coming up 19th/Grand or if they put LR down the 10) at some point?

[combusean]

I went to the meeting with the METRO Rail project development consultant and the area coordinator. It was very short--30 minutes--and I wasn't as prepared as I wanted to be, but I did learn a lot and hopefully made an impact sharing this forum's concerns.

My biggest concern of whether the left hand--Valley Metro Rail--didn't know what the right hand--MAG commuter rail--is doing is mostly alleviated. There's this multi-modal study MAG is doing that takes all the modes present and future into account called the Transit Framework Study.

The alternatives analysis wherein they start getting more answers will continue for about another 10 months so my other concern--that this was somehow moving too quickly--should be pretty much taken care of. They just didn't have the answers to the nitty gritty of the discussion yet as it pertains to what's possible, and I sensed some lack of desire to even estimate what various studies might come back with. But it will be a challenge over the next 10 months to see that the right questions get asked and answered. More of their team will be at the meetings next week so they should have better answers.

They're not so certain that BRT would be necessarily cheaper than LRT for this corridor--you still have to deal with things like guideways and stations. I get that their focus isn't so much on the redevelopment aspects of this leg of transit--which also isn't quite the priority of the Feds--but more towards moving commuters from Point A to Point B over long distances. The federal dollars push really complicates things. I got that they weren't so concerned with overloading the corridor with modes of transit and nothing really precludes another down the road, but I still have concerns because transit is hard to fund to begin with and it's harder to fund here.

...

Every time I end up meeting with new government types I always get the feeling that they just don't quite know what to do with me. But it's hard to blame them--I don't think I am what they know what to do with. :)

At the risk of burning bridges, one of the ladies I talked with seemed very eager to see me and hear everything out, the other one seemed kind of ... maybe not necessarily dismissive but maybe her initial impression was I should have paid more attention to their presentation at Central City VPC--which if I recall was run through really quick and didn't touch on the specific concerns I brought to the table today. I thought it would just be a one-on-one meeting, so I did feel slightly intimidated from my position.

But as I started drawing and highlighting the general alignment ideas and modes on the map I think they finally got the point of my being there. And once they got the idea that I wasn't saying to build both modes all the way out west all at once, everything warmed up. They got a look at the potential of newly intersecting modes serving the right destinations, and I think it hit home that maybe with the money they save doing BRT or something like that in the I-10 corridor to Central, they'll have enough left over to serve the Capitol Mall/Fairgrounds with light rail directly. That could be extended further out west on McDowell or Thomas with another election.

I think I made the biggest impact and got the best reaction when I offered to volunteer--maybe that's for some citizen's committee or something, I don't know. So while I'm not to certain if the technical lady thinks I might know what I'm talking about or not, they at the very least said they still want the input tho I doubt they would tell me straight-up otherwise. I'm trying hard to not get jaded having been put through the motions before--government will do what government will do and you can only lobby and push so much.

But I've made at least one good ally today, and that made the meeting worth it.

[HooverDam]

Cool, thanks for the updates and the hard work!

Its so disappointing to me that all they think about is "get people from A to B" and not the redevelopment potential that light rail can bring. To me, thats missing a large part of what I see as the point for LRT. In Phoenix, mass transits never been popular, largely because its too inconvenient to use for the suburban masses, shift some areas to more TOD style and mass transit usage will increase.

[tempedude]

I am assuming this is the news article associated with the meeting that combusean mentioned that he attended. If not, its related to it anyway. There is a lot of information here. (This is a link to download the MAG Commuter Rail Strategic Plan. Be warned its 112 pages long, but there are some good charts, maps, and graphs included: http://www.mag.maricopa.gov/detail.cms?item=8486)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From the Arizona Republic:
Valley cities considering new commuter systems

Glen Creno
The Arizona Republic
Feb. 29, 2008 12:00 AM

Plans for passenger rail in Arizona are moving forward, but significant hurdles remain before any system is built.

The Maricopa Association of Governments has released a long-awaited draft of its commuter-rail study, which outlines three options that would haul commuters from Phoenix suburbs into job centers in the central city. At the same time, key players in developing high-speed rail between Phoenix and Tucson have joined together to seek money to plan a system.

These efforts come at a time when state and local planners are looking at major improvements to Arizona's transportation system. Rail is receiving particular attention as a way to ease congestion.

Some critics say rail won't significantly reduce freeway backups. Others say not enough roads can be built to handle the onslaught of cars in the growing Phoenix area. Construction costs are soaring, as are gas prices, and some of the city's freeway corridors are bracketed by development, leaving no room for expansion.

City leaders, politicians, railroad companies and rank-and-file commuters will have a chance to voice their opinions on MAG's recommendations. MAG's Regional Council, a collection of Valley mayors and other officials, eventually will vote on the plan.

"We have lots of transportation challenges," said Kevin Wallace, MAG's transit-program manager. "Commuter rail been talked about for a long time but has never risen to the top of solutions. . . . There's a lot more interest and energy to include this as a solution."

The new MAG plan lays out three ways to launch a commuter-rail system: A single-line system with an estimated daily ridership capacity of 10,100; a multicorridor starter system with estimated ridership capacity of 20,200; and a comprehensive regional system with ridership capacity of 141,000 a day.

The trains would run in existing freight-rail corridors, primarily sections of the Burlington Northern Santa Fe along Grand Avenue and the Union Pacific paralleling Interstate 10 in the West Valley and angling southeast into Pinal County. Union Pacific branch lines could serve riders from Tempe and Chandler.

Employment in the area is expected to nearly double from 1.8 million in 2005 to nearly 3.6 million in 2030, according to MAG's study. The region's rail lines run through some of the most congested commuting corridors.

"Without transportation, we don't have an economy," said Bill Lindley, director of the Arizona Rail Passenger Association. "We have to do something to relieve the growing 'time tax' of people stuck in traffic."

MAG's rail report also breaks down the challenges to creating a commuter-rail system. Among them: funding, possible conflicts with freight railroads and working out who controls and operates the system.

The railroads have monitored the development of the commuter-rail report. Officials say their Phoenix lines are getting increasingly busy as demand for freight delivery increases. Burlington Northern said new tracks would be needed in the Grand Avenue area for commuter rail.

"The track on the ground today would not support a fully functional commuter-rail program, a full schedule of commuter-rail trains," said LaTonya Finch, regional manager of economic development for the railroad. "There's no way you could make that program work in conjunction with our business on the line today and what's coming on the line very shortly."

Finch, though, said the railroad has worked with other states to establish commuter rail on its lines. She said that the railroad has been talking to MAG and the Arizona Department of Transportation about passenger rail but that no specific plans have been presented.

Funding remains the biggest obstacle in creating passenger rail.

Last week, ADOT and several agencies, politicians and railroad representatives gathered to discuss the issue. Rep. Ed Pastor, D-Ariz., urged them to apply for new federal grant money to plan a high-speed passenger line between Phoenix and Tucson.

ADOT, which is in the process of updating its 1998 high-speed-rail study, is coordinating the effort and will ask for a $3 million grant. Any grant money must be matched by local funds. The deadline is March 18.

The new federal program has $30 million available this year and is expected to grow to $100 million next year.

Mark Yachmetz of the federal Railroad Administration told the crowd last week that states that have won rail money in the past have put together effective organizations with strong leadership.

That leadership will be important in developing a rail system needed to deal with the state's growth, officials said. Shannon Scutari, an aide to Gov. Janet Napolitano, said new roads alone cannot solve the region's congestion problem. "We can't freeway ourselves out of this," she said.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0229rail229.html

More detail provided by the Arizona Republic:http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0229rail229.html
MORE ON THIS TOPIC
Options for commuter rail

Maricopa Association of Governments has released its plan for commuter rail. Here are the agency's three recommendations:

Scenario 1

Type of system: Get started.

Route: A single-line system in a congested driving corridor. Corridor not specified.

Daily ridership capacity: 10,100.

Estimated cost: $50 million to $400 million.

Advantage: Less-complex coordination with freight railroads, lowest cost, more simple to operate.

Examples of single-corridor systems: NorthStar Commuter Rail in Minneapolis and the Trinity Railway Express connecting Dallas to Fort Worth.



Scenario 2

Type of system: Starter.

Route: A multiple-line system. Number and locations not specified.

Daily ridership capacity: 20,200.

Estimated cost: $400 million to $800 million.

Advantage: Relatively low cost and possibility to upgrade the system over time.

Examples of starter systems: Salt Lake City Commuter Rail and the Virginia Railway Express commuter-rail service connecting northern Virginia and Washington, D.C.



Scenario 3

Type of system: Regional.

Route: Launch service in several corridors simultaneously. Routes not specified.

Daily ridership capacity: 141,000.

Estimated cost: $800 million to $2 billion.

Advantage: Improves transportation mobility and sustainability and helps shape regional growth. But a complex system would probably require separate facilities from freight rail and is the most costly option and most difficult to operate.

Examples of regional systems: Metrolink commuter rail in Los Angeles and the Denver FasTracks transit-expansion program.

Source: Maricopa Association of Governments

What's next?


• MAG will present its draft plan to the public at a meeting from 9 to 11 a.m. Thursday at 302 N. First Ave.. Phoenix.


• Several MAG committees will later review the plan before it goes to the MAG Regional Council for a vote. The council consists mainly of Valley mayors, plus city, county and tribal officials and the head of a citizens transportation committee.


• Read the report at http://www.mag.maricopa.gov/event.cms?item=8489

[PHX31]

Great job, Combusean. If nothing else, you either planted a seed, or gained a couple good contacts.

I definitely couldn't have done what you did!

I can see their point about getting people from A to B... but maybe they aren't looking far enough into the future. With TOD and development, they can get even more people from A to B.

[FireMedic]

Any updates on the South Mountain Freeway,
They choose alignment yet, When are they going to start consruction ?

Also, anything new on the proposed tunnel under
white tank mountains to connect Northern Ave to Buckeye ?

[tempedude]

This whole elevated automated people mover system/transit center connecting the Sky Harbor Airport with light rail and the bus system is going to be so cool when its completed. I am pretty amped, although final build out is a few years way.

The Sky Harbor transit center itself is almost finished though. I was right by there yesterday...should have snapped a couple of photos with my crappy cell phone camera. :tup:

From the East Vally Tribune:

http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/story/110552

March 4, 2008 - 2:43PM
Sky Harbor transit center to aid passengers
Donna Hogan, Tribune

An outlying transit center that will allow people to board a free elevated train to Phoenix Sky Harbor International Airport instead of dealing with road congestion will be ready to welcome passengers by December.

But those airport-goers will be bused instead of whisked overhead to the terminals, said Jane Morris, assistant aviation director.

The first phase of the now-dubbed automated train system, formerly the more colorfully monikered people mover, is slated to be completed in 2013, she said. Tracks will be overhead instead of underground because it’s a cheaper and more customer friendly method of transport, Morris said.

The train system design is only 30 percent complete, but the first phase, which will transport people from the new transit terminal at 44th and Washington streets to the east economy parking lot and Terminal 4, is expected to cost at least $440 million, she said. Until the train system is built, passengers will use buses between the transit center and the airport terminal.

The transit terminal, which is nearly completed, will open when light rail gears up, Morris said, although it is designed to be a convenient passenger drop-off spot for cars and other transports.

Airport officials have narrowed possible train suppliers to three and expect to present those options to Phoenix City Council in the fall, Morris said. The trains will be electric, driverless, fully accessible, high capacity and run on rubber tires, she said.

A second phase of the transport system, which will link up to additional terminals and the rental car center, is slated for 2020.

Other pieces of the $2.9 billion airport improvement plan approved by Phoenix City Council a year ago include a new concourse for Terminal 4 and the razing and rebuilding of the tiny Terminal 2.

Those plans are on hold until airlines say they need more terminal space, said Deborah Ostreicher, deputy aviation director.

The new concourse could happen soon if the hometown airline gears up its international business to a big extent.

Tempe-based US Airways President Scott Kirby said last week that the airline could be flying to Europe from Sky Harbor by 2010.

Whether there are enough international gates and processing space in the international area of Terminal 4 by then would depend on how many flights the carrier would add, and what time of day they planned to take off, said Carl Newman assistant aviation director.

http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/1820/phxskyharborbw5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[NIXPHX77]

cool stuff. i can't wait for light rail, commuter rail (if it happens), and
the people mover (ats).

last nite the Encanto Villg Planning Comm voted to support the
I-10 median route for Metro mass transit from I-17 to 83rd ave.
that is the only alt. Metro recommends based on their data for that segment.

East of I-17 is still being figured out as there are a lot of complicated logistics physically (BNSF RR, industry, freeway ramps, narrow sts., etc.)

I asked about TOD and stations along that I-10 median route. they are still planning that part of it, but taking TOD into consideration. however,
speed and efficiency seem to be the main criteria. in asking about placement of those stations, they said the approach will be different than if this was located within a street. they may have stations only every 2 miles, and those stations may be located at the half mile spots, such as 31st, 39, or 47th aves, for example.
Thankfully, they seem to be aware of the other transp. projects and possibilities which could affect Metro, and it sounds like they are all in communication (Metro, MAG, ADOT, etc.) Exciting times!

[tempedude]

Exciting times indeed for transit in metro Phoenix.

Here is a early video rendering of the upcoming elevated Sky Harbor automated transit system(ats) aka people mover.

Video courtesy East Valley Tribune:
http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid1336690405/bctid1443714567

[Azndragon837]

Exciting times indeed for transit in metro Phoenix.

Here is a early video rendering of the upcoming elevated Sky Harbor automated transit system(ats) aka people mover.

Video courtesy East Valley Tribune:
http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid1336690405/bctid1443714567

THAT is a sweet video! I like the bridge that connects the LRT Station to the people mover system. I also like the "canyon" effect from the current and future parking garages.

The best part is the TALL bridge over the plane taxiway that connects the north and south runways. After some quick searching on Wikipedia, a typical Airbus A380 stands 78 feet tall, and a 747-400 stands 64 feet tall. That bridge would need to be about say....100 feet tall? It would be awesome to be in the people mover and look down on a huge plane taxing below.

Awesome video find.

-Andrew

[NIXPHX77]

cool video. great find - thanks! that will be so great to see, both as a passenger on board the ats as well as a driver or passenger in a car, plane or train! can't wait - almost seems too good to be true. plus the views from the elevated ats will be fantastic of the skyline, mountains, airport, etc.

i really hope and wish that a multi-modal station is built at
44th St/washington (and at 24th st./Washington in the future.)
i'd like to see them both built to serve the airport people mover (ats),
light rail, buses, and commuter rail (the UPRR line is right there.)
Perhaps a passenger drop off area for cars would be good, too.

also, i think the city really needs to either make a bridge or tunnel
for the 24th St crossing of the UPRR tracks, esp. if commuter rail
is implemented on that line.
PS - azndragon - if you want to have a meet in Scottsdale, you should just plan it and put it out there.
if people don't want to go to scottsdale, they can plan another elsewhere or wait for that meetup to be planned by someone else. my two cents. (i'd like a downtown scottsdale meet.)

[Azndragon837]

cool video. great find - thanks! that will be so great to see, both as a passenger on board the ats as well as a driver or passenger in a car, plane or train! can't wait - almost seems too good to be true. plus the views from the elevated ats will be fantastic of the skyline, mountains, airport, etc.

i really hope and wish that a multi-modal station is built at
44th St/washington (and at 24th st./Washington in the future.)
i'd like to see them both built to serve the airport people mover (ats),
light rail, buses, and commuter rail (the UPRR line is right there.)
Perhaps a passenger drop off area for cars would be good, too.

also, i think the city really needs to either make a bridge or tunnel
for the 24th St crossing of the UPRR tracks, esp. if commuter rail
is implemented on that line.
PS - azndragon - if you want to have a meet in Scottsdale, you should just plan it and put it out there.
if people don't want to go to scottsdale, they can plan another elsewhere or wait for that meetup to be planned by someone else. my two cents. (i'd like a downtown scottsdale meet.)

^I will propose that in the Forum Meet thread. I just posted a date on there (March 15th). I'll see if everyone agrees with Scottsdale....I want to show off the Waterfront, Optima, Southbridge, Safari Drive, the W Hotel (since I work as a planner there now, I kind of enjoy showing off what Scottsdale has become).

Or, we can do a meet in Downtown Phoenix and walk around to see all the new stuff that's up. It'll be a vote.

-Andrew

[Azndragon837]

OK...so the light rail isn't schedule to be in operation until December 27th, which is a Saturday, buuuuuuuuuut......

I am already planning to be at the ribbon-cutting ceremony that morning and park my car at the future Chris-Town Park-n-Ride at Bethany Home & 19th Avenue, and ride the train all the way to Mesa (and finding out there isn't much there). Then I hurry-up and turn around and do a quick stop in Tempe, then to Downtown Phoenix, and back to my car at Chris-Town.

All free too! Who's with me!!!!!?????

-Andrew

[HooverDam]

OK...so the light rail isn't schedule to be in operation until December 27th, which is a Saturday, buuuuuuuuuut......

I am already planning to be at the ribbon-cutting ceremony that morning and park my car at the future Chris-Town Park-n-Ride at Bethany Home & 19th Avenue, and ride the train all the way to Mesa (and finding out there isn't much there). Then I hurry-up and turn around and do a quick stop in Tempe, then to Downtown Phoenix, and back to my car at Chris-Town.

All free too! Who's with me!!!!!?????

-Andrew

I was already planning something like this. I am planning on taking my Mom on the train that day (she's a suburban, anti LRT sort of lady), riding it downtown to the Public Market (which she loves) and then taking into Mesa and maybe that'll convince her its not so bad after all.

Plus, it'll give her a good impression of it before it smells like urine.

[CANUC]

Any updates on the South Mountain Freeway,
They choose alignment yet, When are they going to start consruction ?

Also, anything new on the proposed tunnel under
white tank mountains to connect Northern Ave to Buckeye ?

Here is a link to a cool simulated fly over of the proposed South Mountain freeway. The red line borders show the areas that will fall within the freeways right of way, the one interesting part is the section of South Mountain that would have to be carved away.

http://www.azdot.gov/Highways/Valley_Freeways/Loop_202/South_Mountain/fly.asp

[Vicelord John]

hm december 27th. I won't be parking my car at any park and rides, but I'll definitely be walking across the street to the nearest train station and riding all day long.

[Buckeye Native 001]

I am already planning to be at the ribbon-cutting ceremony that morning and park my car at the future Chris-Town Park-n-Ride at Bethany Home & 19th Avenue, and ride the train all the way to Mesa (and finding out there isn't much there). Then I hurry-up and turn around and do a quick stop in Tempe, then to Downtown Phoenix, and back to my car at Chris-Town.

All free too! Who's with me!!!!!?????

-Andrew

I'm game, but its a ways off, so you'll have to remind me. :tup:

[JimInCal]

Ah, mystery solved...

http://www.azcentral.com/community/phoenix/articles/0314railcracks0314.html

Cause found for light-rail cracks
Report blames plasma torches
Casey Newton
The Arizona Republic
Mar. 14, 2008 12:00 AM

Torches used to create drainage for the Valley's $1.4 billion light-rail system led to rails pulling apart in nine places throughout the line, according to a report to be released today.

A report from independent consultant Zeta-Tech Associates said torches used to cut drainage openings in the girder rail weakened the steel. The breaks occurred when temperatures dropped this winter, causing additional stress to the track.

Zeta-Tech said Metro light rail should ban the use of the torches, known as plasma cutters, in its rail-construction project.

"The use of a plasma cutting torch to cut rail that is to remain in track is considered to be unacceptable in virtually all railway applications because of the metallurgical damage produced by the plasma torch," the report said. "That was the case here."

Use of the torches was apparently limited to creating drainage cutouts, which will all have to be repaired or replaced.

Metro light rail has asked system designer Parsons Brinckerhoff for a meeting to discuss the report and ask for compensation for the expense of investigating and repairing the breaks. Representatives of the firm could not be reached late Thursday.

The 20-mile starter line, which runs from north-central Phoenix to Mesa, is still expected to open on time and on budget Dec. 27, officials said.

Metro light rail has scheduled a news conference this morning to discuss the report and the agency's response to it. Metro light-rail spokeswoman Marty McNeil said she could not discuss the report's contents before the news conference.

Metro light-rail Chairman Tom Simplot said he had been briefed on the report and called the findings "relatively good news."

"Based upon the briefing that I have had, the experts and professionals have said without any doubt that the rail line is safe," Simplot said.

A series of breaks
From December to January, Metro light-rail track inspectors found rail damage in 17 locations from central Phoenix to east Tempe. The damage occurred in three of the five sections of the starter line, each of which is being built by a different contractor.

In nine places, the rail had separated, leaving gaps that ranged in size from half an inch to 7 inches. In all but one case, the separations occurred near drainage places where contractors had cut the rail using the plasma torch.

After the discovery, Metro light rail suspended rail installation in the parts of the line where the breaks were found.

On Jan. 4, Metro light rail hired Zeta-Tech, based in Cherry Hill, N.J., to investigate the damage. The consultant flew to Phoenix and recommended that rail samples undergo metallurgical tests.

The tests and accompanying investigation showed that the drainage cutouts led directly to the breaks.

Zeta-Tech's report said the rail system will be able to handle temperature changes without breaking after the damaged sections are removed.

Metro takes action
Metro light rail will take a series of steps to ensure the remainder of the system is safely built, said Brian Buchanan, Metro light rail's director of design and construction, in a Thursday memo to Metro light rail Chief Executive Rick Simonetta.

Steps include:

• Installing remaining rail at a lower temperature.

• Ending the practice of making drainage cutouts in the rail.

• Repairing or replacing the damaged rail.

• Hiring a separate consultant to verify that the rail is properly prepared.

Phoenix Mayor Phil Gordon said the rail cracks did not endanger riders and expressed gratitude that the problem's source had been identified.

He said he was eagerly anticipating the line's opening.

"I look forward not only to being on the first train, but to having all the naysayers ride with me," Gordon said.

[PHX31]

/\ What about all of the other places in the rail line that had the plasma cutter cut-outs for drainage, but didn't fail yet? Will they just hope they never fail and fix them if they do?

It was such a stupid idea in the first place to put in track drainage. If they wanted to VE the thing, that's the first thing that should have been taken out. Who the hell cares if there is a little water in the groove of the track? It's not like we are Denver or Minneapolis and that water might freeze. The train wheel would just push the water out.

[HooverDam]

I was @ the Marquee theater tonight and the light rail tracks and stations there look more or less done. One thing I found odd, the stations have ramps, accessible at a crosswalk. They also have ramps on the other side of the station. These ramps don't lead to anything though, why are they there?

Also, will the people who drive the trains be called 'conductors'? I think a lot more people would apply for the job if they got to be a conductor.

[Sekkle]

They also have ramps on the other side of the station. These ramps don't lead to anything though, why are they there?


It's an emergency exit.

[KEVINphx]

It's an emergency exit.

Silly! The ramp will prove so useful once you have to wheel your ass through gravel and over two curbs. Stuff like that always baffles me. :shrug:

[HooverDam]

It's an emergency exit.

Exit to where? If you're in a wheel chair you'll just be stuck on that piece of square concrete. Will it be labeled "Emergency Exit"? I can't imagine in an emergency people looking that direction and thinking "yes, a dead end! thats the direction Ill make my escape too!"

EDIT: VVV Well, thanks for the knowledge :D

[Sekkle]

Yes, I agree, it doesn't make sense to me without curb cuts. I don't know the reasoning behind it, I just know that's what it is...
http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj223/Brizzle78/untitled2.jpg

[tempedude]

I snapped a few photos of the Apache Blvd. and Dorsey Lane light rail station in Tempe. (Basically just because its only two blocks from my apt.) My attempt was to capture some of the artwork laid into the platform. I was also impressed with how much shade was actually present at this station even though all the trees and landscaping are not even in place yet.

A big thanks to the security guard who allowed me to step up onto the platform to take some photos. :yes:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3236/2351830333_11900dc38e.jpg?v=0

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2056/2352659550_cf08c7fa66.jpg?v=0

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2410/2352660188_596ea50bdf.jpg?v=0

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2024/2351832595_a7f399992b.jpg?v=0

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3270/2351830571_4f5fdfd93e.jpg?v=0

Looking along most of the length of the station:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3086/2351831865_4a490404cb.jpg?v=0

Planter built into the platform for green stuff like uuuh....plants :yes: :D
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2280/2351832259_35771619e8.jpg?v=0

[Sekkle]

Nice! Thanks for the pics. I'm looking forward to checking out the progress when I visit in April.

[vwwolfe]

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc262/thomtastic/3rd-wash.jpg

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc262/thomtastic/apache.jpg

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc262/thomtastic/center-station.jpg

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc262/thomtastic/central-camelback-art.jpg

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc262/thomtastic/pedestrians-during-testing.jpg

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc262/thomtastic/priest-station-art.jpg

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc262/thomtastic/priest-station.jpg

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc262/thomtastic/tempe-intersection.jpg

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc262/thomtastic/Vehicle-ASU.jpg

[HooverDam]

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc262/thomtastic/central-camelback-art.jpg

Thats the fargate!

[HX_Guy]

I love this shot...

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc262/thomtastic/pedestrians-during-testing.jpg

I don't know what it is...but there is just this aura about light rail that buses just don't have. Same goes for any train I guess...there is just a fascination when a train (heavy rail) is passing by that sort of captures people.

I take frequent trips to downtown to do photo shoots and usually drive straight there and park then walk around...never have I been temped to grab a bus for a few stops, but I can definitely see myself parking a little further and grabbing the light rail for a few stops around downtown.

[Sonoran_Dweller]

Doesn't Metro get the right of way? It shouldn't be stopped at the light, right?

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc262/thomtastic/pedestrians-during-testing.jpg

[HX_Guy]

I don't think it will get the right of way every time. From what I understand, they will try as best as possible to time the lights so that the train always catches a green light...but I guess there can be instances where it won't happen.

Also, the train pictured is being tested so most likely the lights and such have not yet been set up.

[exit2lef]

I was lucky enough to receive a free pass to the sixth annual of Friends of Transit Conference. This event is for organizations, businesses, and individuals concerned with expanding public transit options in the Phoenix Metro Area. This year's conference took place at the Light Rail Operations and Maintenance facility, located on 48th Street just east of Sky Harbor Airport. Given the location, the focus was understandably on light rail, which is scheduled to begin service December 27 of this year. Nevertheless, trains were not the only focus. There was ample discussion about bus service, commuter rail, and economic development issues as they relate to transit availability.

The event started with brief welcoming remarks from Tom Simplot, member of the Phoenix City Council and Chair of Metro Light Rail, and Phoenix Mayor Phil Gordon. Mayor Gordon has just returned from a visit to Dubai and noted that the Middle Eastern city had chosen the same type of Kinkisharyo cars for its light rail system. It was followed by a "State of Transit" address delivered jointly by David Boggs, the executive director of Valley Metro, and Rick Simonetta, the CEO of Metro Light Rail. This speech covered a lot of ground, with the following highlights:

--"Super grid" bus routes -- The light rail project gets the most publicity these days, but the 2000 and 2004 transit referenda also included funding for extensive improvements to bus service. One improvement is "super grid" service in which routes operate seamlessly across city lines. Right now, several lines stop at city boundaries on some runs because one city has chosen to fund service at a lower level than another. With super grid service, regional funding sources are used to allow uniform service levels across boundaries. Several routes have already been upgraded to super grid status, and many more will follow in the near future.

--Bus and rail combination -- Good bus service is critical to a successful rail transit system. Bus service feeds rail, allowing rail to serve passengers who may not live within walking distance of a rail station. Some bus routes will be rerouted, in some cases up to 1.5 miles, to serve light rail stations. (I would have liked more detail about this point.)

--Light rail extensions -- The light rail starter line scheduled to open in December 2008 is 20 miles long and one of the longest starter lines ever opened in a rail transit system. The project won't stop at the starter line, however. Projected extension lines will take the system to 57 miles by 2025.

--Starter line construction -- 96% of the track is in place with less than one mile of track still to be laid. Construction of the starter line is 83% done. All vehicles have arrived at the operations and maintenance center. Testing will move to Downtown Tempe this spring, with testing in Central Phoenix and Mesa following in the summer.

--Western extension -- The I-10 median is almost a given as the route for the future light rail line heading west from Downtown. The 50-foot median is too good an opportunity to resist, especially since light rail construction could be combined with ADOT's scheduled improvements to the freeway. The major advantage of this approach will be faster rail service since trains will not have to intersect with car traffic; the major disadvantage will be less opportunity for transit-oriented development.


The next event was a panel discussion on economic development along the light rail line. Grady Gammage, Jr., facilitated this discussion, and set a great tone with his own insightful remarks. Gammage's thoughtful comments were generally matched by interesting contributions by Randy Levin of Suncor, Jeff Moloznik of RED Develoment, and Debra Friedman of the ASU Downtown Campus. Key insights included the following:

--CityScape is proceeding with the following tenants confirmed: AJ's, P.F. Chang's, Wachovia, and the Kimpton Palomar Hotel. The AJ's design will differ from other AJ's locations. It will be a two-story store with groceries and prepared foods on the first floor and a wine bar and cafe on the second floor.

--CityScape's park will accommodate up to 10,000 for special events. The water features will use the same space when events are not in progress. CityScape's design will emphasize shade close to the street, allowing pedestrians to find shelter from sun and heat without retreating from streetscape.

--Both CityScape and Hayden Ferry Lakeside (Suncor's project in Tempe) will incorporate enough garage and underground parking to match normal suburban parking expectations. Despite the proximity to light rail, both developers feel that tenant resistance to limited parking would be insurmountable at this point. This is contrast to the Newman Center project at ASU in which parking is being omitted due to transit availability.

--The success of ASU's Downtown Campus is predicated on a seamless transit link to the Tempe Campus. Without a transit link, it would be necessary to duplicate programs at both campuses. Friedman noted that issue was a problem at her previous institution, University of Washington, which had to replicate programs at three Seattle-area campuses due to a lack of transit links.

--Both RED and Suncor were candid in saying that their projects probably would not have proceeded without city incentives. Grady Gammage offered a very interesting perpsective on this issue, noting that although Arizona has low residential property tax rates, it has some of the highest commercial property tax rates in the nation. In his view, this sends the message to the outside world that new houses are valued more than corporate headquarters. I thought this comment by Gammage was probably one the single most insightful remarks of the entire conference.

The second panel discussion, which focused on statewide transportation planning, was not as interesting and I therefore did not take detailed notes. I was pleased to see hear some frank remarks directed toward the Arizona legislature, which is notorious for favoring unlimited road building over transit in addressing transportation issues.

After a nice catered lunch and an awards presentation, the conference ended with a preview ride on two light rail cars. The free train ride was incredible culmination to the conference. The cars look as clean, new, and high-tech inside as outside. They are amazingly quiet with none of the clackety-clack associated with the NYC Subway or the Chicago El. The train operator took us around the rail yard, reaching a maximum speed of 43 miles per hour. We then proceeded up a track running alongside the 202 Freeway, stopping just short of Washington Street, which is where the actual rail line will run. I was disappointed that we did not continue along the test track from 44th Street to 56th Street, but still in awe of the experience we had the opportunity to enjoy. Photos are available at http://picasaweb.google.com/silverbearphx/LightRailPreview

[Sekkle]

^ Thanks for the summary of the conference. I get the friends of transit e-mails and always wondered what these events are like.

Thanks, also, for the photos. It was interesting to see the inside of one of the cars. It looks significantly different from the ones here in Portland, especially through the mid-section, as shown in this photo (http://picasaweb.google.com/silverbearphx/LightRailPreview/photo#5180803261912849826) of yours. It actually looks pretty narrow through there. It was cool to see the maintenance/storage yard stocked full of LRVs, too. :tup:

[Sekkle]

Saw this on azcentral... Good to see this thing finally getting started. There have false starts for years - not necessarily with construction, but with design of the system.
Sky Harbor set to begin train project
Jahna Berry
The Arizona Republic
Mar. 23, 2008 12:00 AM
When crews put the final touches on light rail this year, the airport will embark on its own epic train project.

In early April, workers will start building a $1.1 billion, 4.8-mile automated train system that will whisk passengers around Phoenix Sky Harbor International Airport.

The first, $440 million leg of the project will take five years to build, city officials say. It will link to the 44th Street light-rail station, East Economy Parking and Terminal 4.

The final stretch, which is projected to open in 2020, would extend the line to the airport's rental-car center and Terminal 2 and Terminal 3.

The train will help ease rising traffic congestion around Sky Harbor, which serves 42 million passengers a year, city officials say. Plus, future light-rail riders may be able to check luggage and get a boarding pass before they set foot in the airport, city leaders say.

Many major airports around the world have similar systems, including U.S. airports such as Atlanta, Dallas and Denver.

"The automated train project is a forward-thinking plan in all aspects," said Phoenix Deputy City Manager David Krietor,whose duties include aviation issues. "It addresses passenger needs, it alleviates roadway traffic and it links Sky Harbor to users of light rail."

It also took nearly a decade for the project to leap from the drawing board, Krietor said.

Sky Harbor began automated-train plans as early as 2001, but it was put on the back burner after the post-9/11 travel downturn. It hit another setback when Phoenix explored, and later abandoned, an expensive plan to put the automated train underground, he said.
Kiss and fly
City officials also decided against extending the 20-mile light-rail starter line to the airport. It would have added up to seven train stops to a commuter's light-rail trip.

"The vast majority of light-rail riders will not be going to the airport," said Metro light rail spokeswoman Marty McNeil. Commuters "don't want to have to go through the airport and add all of those stops."

Seven airport light-rail stops would have made the $1.4 billion Metro light-rail project even more expensive. The rail line, which will connect Phoenix, Tempe and Mesa, opens in December.

Instead, the airport train's link to the 44th Street Metro light-rail station has become the centerpiece of Sky Harbor's project.

Future Metro riders will be able to step off light rail and walk across an elevated bridge to the new airport "gateway."

There, passengers may be able to check bags and grab a boarding pass before they step on a train car that will carry them to their flight, airport officials say. While the automated train is under construction, buses will shuttle riders from the 44th Street light-rail station to the airport.

The tie to light rail could help take as many as 20,000 cars - about 20 percent of the traffic circling Sky Harbor - off the road, Sky Harbor officials say.

You've heard of kiss and ride? "This is kiss and fly," said Assistant Aviation Director Jane Morris.

Several Sky Harbor passengers say that they are looking forward to the train.

"It would be an excellent investment," said Herbert Erne, 39, of Asheville, N.C., who was in Phoenix this week for a business trip. The automated train would especially be helpful when he travels with his wife and two children.

"When you are trying to get from terminal to terminal, you want to save time," he said.

And time is of the essence during short layovers, say Canadian tourists Michael Chow and Pauline Poon.

"It saves time and makes things more efficient," said Chow, 37.
First sign
The driverless train cars will roll on rubber wheels. The track is elevated in some areas and runs at street level in others.

The first sign of construction will be a 20-acre maintenance and storage facility near 44th Street and Arizona 143.

Crews must haul out 500,000 cubic yards of dirt before they build anything aboveground, said Jay DeWitt, special projects administrator for the automated-train project.

Next, Hensel Phelps Construction Co. plans to grade the site and install water and sewer lines.

Work on the guideways, or tracks, will begin sometime in 2009.

The automated train will cause fewer traffic headaches than light rail because a lot of the tracks will be built above the road, airport spokeswoman Deborah Ostreicher said.

"This will be very different from light rail" construction, she said. "This is not going to be in the middle of the street. The train is not sharing the road with cars like light rail."

In 2009 and 2010, some lanes on 44th Street and Sky Harbor Boulevard and in the East Economy Lot will close as the tracks go in.

The contractor plans to use pre-cast concrete for parts of the project and will work during non-peak hours in order to minimize problems, the spokeswoman said.

The project will be financed by bonds. The bonds will be paid by passenger facility charges - fees that airlines at Sky Harbor pay - and other airport revenues.

Meanwhile, city officials are still negotiating with several property owners with land in the path of the automated-train station near 44th and Washington streets. The city made offers to all 16 owners in the 13.5-acre area; about a third of them have agreed to sell.

It could cost $40 million to $50 million to buy the land, and the City Council has voted to use condemnation if necessary. About $14.7 million has been spent to date on acquiring the land.

The city wants to control the area by March 2009 in order to stay on schedule. .

There are 46 businesses and tenants on the site and each has different needs, said Morris of Sky Harbor.

"What you are dealing with are different situations with different property owners . . . and we are trying to accommodate their needs," she said.

At least one property owner expects to end up in court.

Business owner Janice Decker says she rejected Phoenix's offer to buy her 20-year-old 12,000-square-foot building at 4232 E. Madison St. for $78 per square foot. She also has hired a lawyer.

"They said this area is blighted," Decker said of the city's offer. "Well then why do you want it?" she asked

Decker would like to relocate her commercial door business, Markham & Decker Inc., but places that are available cost twice as much as what the city has offered. Most of the property that is available is in Glendale, which is too far away, she added.

Ostreicher, the airport spokeswoman, declined to comment about Decker specifically. In general, the next step for such owners would be mediation, she said.
Train-car fleet
Three firms are competing to build the train cars and the system that will operate them. The City Council is expected to tap a finalist in the fall.

City officials have declined to speak in detail about the bids because city rules limit what they can say during the procurement process. The finalists are Canadian firm Bombardier Inc. and two Japanese firms: IHI, or Ishikawajima-Harima Heavy Industries Corp., and Sumitomo Corp.

A small circle of firms usually competes for train-car contracts, said Kathryn Nickerson, a spokeswoman for Bombardier. The winner usually is a contender for future contracts for additional cars, maintenance and other upgrades.

At first, as many as 18 cars will be built, but the fleet is expected to expand.

When the first part of the train system is complete in 2013, Krietor says that 45 million to 50 million airplane passengers are expected to pass through Sky Harbor each year.

"People will keep moving here, and the number of passengers will continue to grow," he said.
http://www.azcentral.com/community/phoenix/articles/0323train0323.html

Here's a candidate for stupidest question of the year...
"They said this area is blighted," Decker said of the city's offer. "Well then why do you want it?" she asked
uhh... to build this train... not because it's a piece of prime real estate in a really trendy neighborhood.

[exit2lef]

^ Thanks for the summary of the conference. I get the friends of transit e-mails and always wondered what these events are like.

Thanks, also, for the photos. It was interesting to see the inside of one of the cars. It looks significantly different from the ones here in Portland, especially through the mid-section, as shown in this photo (http://picasaweb.google.com/silverbearphx/LightRailPreview/photo#5180803261912849826) of yours. It actually looks pretty narrow through there. It was cool to see the maintenance/storage yard stocked full of LRVs, too. :tup:

Basically, the rail cars are like articulated buses. Two halves are shipped separately to Phoenix, and the halves are joined with a flexible, pivoting mid-section. In the mid-section, there are vertical bike racks and two rows of four seats each. The rows are linear along both sides of the train and parallel to its direction of motion. Sort of like this:

s = seat
b = bike rack


ssssbb

bbssss

[JI5]

Was browsing MLS and came across a 44 Monroe listing.. These pictures were too good to not post.

::edit: I can't get these pictures to post. I uploaded them to Picasa. What am I doing wrong?::

[HooverDam]

^Try using http://imageshack.us Its a really simple uploading site. Once it spits out a URL for you, then hit the little icon above the posting box that looks like a mountain and paste the URL in there.

Also, be sure to realize your in the transit thread and not the Phoenix development or the 44 Monroe thread :D

I was lucky enough to receive a free pass to the sixth annual of Friends of Transit Conference.

Thanks for the information and pictures, very interesting! In that one picture you sort of look like a thinner Glenn Beck :P

[exit2lef]

^Try using http://imageshack.us Its a really simple uploading site. Once it spits out a URL for you, then hit the little icon above the posting box that looks like a mountain and paste the URL in there.

Also, be sure to realize your in the transit thread and not the Phoenix development or the 44 Monroe thread :D



Thanks for the information and pictures, very interesting! In that one picture you sort of look like a thinner Glenn Beck :P

FWIW, I've never been able to insert photos into posts on this software platform, which is used by at least two discussion forums I participate in. I'm not sure why, but the feature you describe fails every time I try it.

As for Glenn Beck, I'd never heard of him until this discussion. (I'm an NPR type of guy.) I looked him up. I agree there is some definite similarity in terms of appearance, but not much in terms of politics.

[andrewkfromaz]

--Both RED and Suncor were candid in saying that their projects probably would not have proceeded without city incentives. Grady Gammage offered a very interesting perpsective on this issue, noting that although Arizona has low residential property tax rates, it has some of the highest commercial property tax rates in the nation. In his view, this sends the message to the outside world that new houses are valued more than corporate headquarters. I thought this comment by Gammage was probably one the single most insightful remarks of the entire conference.

Wow, is this Grady Gammage Jr. actually advocating for lower taxes?!?!?!

Sounds like an awesome experience, Silverbear, I'm glad you were able to report back to us. There was a lot of information in that conference.

[exit2lef]

Wow, is this Grady Gammage Jr. actually advocating for lower taxes?!?!?!


My guess is that he might advocate lowering commercial property taxes and offsetting the lost revenue with increases elsewhere. His main concern was that high commercial property taxes make our area unappealing for corporate offices and therefore keep our economy needlessly reliant on homebuilding.

[Vicelord John]

there is an article on AZcentral right now that says the trains will run on weekedays from sun up to sun down every 10 minutes. when the sun is down, every 20, and weekends every 15. Also they will run from 5a - 1a.

STUPID FUCKS!

what about in the winter when the sun goes down during peak travel commutes. You're going to run off peak schedules during rush hours? and weekends, you think you need to run those more often than when the sun is down? and what about people wanting to get a ride home from the bars? nope, they have to call it an early night, because you cant keep them running til 230 or so. Metro, let me be the first to say here, you are led by a bunch of chimps.

[tempedude]

there is an article on AZcentral right now that says the trains will run on weekedays from sun up to sun down every 10 minutes. when the sun is down, every 20, and weekends every 15. Also they will run from 5a - 1a.

STUPID FUCKS!

what about in the winter when the sun goes down during peak travel commutes. You're going to run off peak schedules during rush hours? and weekends, you think you need to run those more often than when the sun is down? and what about people wanting to get a ride home from the bars? nope, they have to call it an early night, because you cant keep them running til 230 or so. Metro, let me be the first to say here, you are led by a bunch of chimps.

Don't you think that sun up to sun down is only a relative term..I don't think they mean it literally. and Dude most cities only run their fucking trains till 1 am...

god you are a bitter old fag aren't ya?

[PHX31]

/\ NO, he's not old...

[gymratmanaz]

.....and he's not bitter. He's just drawn that way.

[Vicelord John]

Don't you think that sun up to sun down is only a relative term..I don't think they mean it literally. and Dude most cities only run their fucking trains till 1 am...

god you are a bitter old fag aren't ya? well if they don't mean it then they shouldn't say it. I guess I'm a "bitter old fag" for assuming I am reading accurate reporting. And as far as "most cities" goes, I'm pretty sure "most cities" are doing it wrong. When I go back to Chicago, the trains are all packed with people from the bars at last call at 4AM. They make MORE than enough money to justify being open late at night. If we ran them till say 2AM then they could make the money to cover it and then some.

[gymratmanaz]

I agree again with 2AM. Unless the 1AM is to promote more taxis....hehehe

[KEVINphx]

I was always surprised that Paris and London do not run their underground trains 24/7 and in fact close more or less at 1-2 am

they run 24/7 night buses but yeah, at least last time i was in both cities.

[andrewkfromaz]

And as far as "most cities" goes, I'm pretty sure "most cities" are doing it wrong. When I go back to Chicago, the trains are all packed with people from the bars at last call at 4AM. They make MORE than enough money to justify being open late at night. If we ran them till say 2AM then they could make the money to cover it and then some.

Sucks for us. I have an idea: let's all just move to Chicago. That place is sounding better and better all the time. I could even see myself becoming a Cubs fan - I could always use another hopeless cause to believe in.

There really aren't that many people who are going to be out that late. Sure, if it was easier there would be more people doing it, but Phoenix is not Chicago. Or LA, or Vegas, or any other city you care to name. It's different.
I think the hours of operation are something that will be fairly easy to change as the system gets more ridership and as there is demand for later hours among businesses along the route.

[HX_Guy]

My opinion on this is that while having it running until 2am would be beneficial to some, I don't think there are enough people at this point that would use it. As it expands and reaches more areas of the valley, they will probably extend the hours, at least on weekends.

Actually, while I was typing that...it occurred that they could run it until say 2:30am but not start it up until 6:30 on weekends...they would still have their 4 hour break and it should work out as I doubt there will be many if any people using the light rail at 5am on the weekend.

[Sekkle]

They make MORE than enough money to justify being open late at night. If we ran them till say 2AM then they could make the money to cover it and then some.
It's pretty rare for a transit system to "make the money to cover it" from its passengers (let alone "and then some"). Chicago's CTA farebox recovery is around 40% (i.e. the money people pay in fares pays for 40% of the cost to run the service), and that's above average. If the ridership is there, though, they can justify losing money at the farebox - the rest will be paid through taxes. So yeah, you're probably right that Chicago can justify running its trains late.

I do think it's a little strange, too, that service would end in Phx at 1am (well, maybe not strange, but at least worth ValleyMetro rethinking it in the future). I doubt there are too many people riding in the 11pm to 1am range that makes it crucial to keep it open until 1, but it seems like they would get a pretty big boost if they just ran it until 2:00 or 2:30 when bars let out. It's not like everyone at the bars would ride it, but I'm sure a 2:15 train from Tempe to Phoenix would have more passengers than one at 1:15. Maybe they could run trains at the 20 minute headways until 1am and have a last call train at 2 or 2:30 or something... even if it was only on Fridays and Saturdays. I guess how they shift the schedule will depend on the ridership they get.

10-minute headways for the whole day (or the daylight hours anyway) is better than I expected. For some reason, I was thinking they had decided to go with 20 minutes (with 10-15 minute headways in peak hours or something).

[HooverDam]

Another thing to consider is, a lot of the clubs/popular night spots are in Old Town Scottsdale, which has no Light Rail service, so perhaps they didn't think there would be much demand for that sort of thing just with Mill Ave (because, lets be honest, though there are more bars in downtown PHX than there once were, its still a ghost town at night).

[HooverDam]

A few photos of LRT stations downtown:

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b132/HooverDam/downtown%20march%2008/DSC_0844.jpg?t=1206475982
Central and Roosevelt station. Notice the planter space on the sidewalk on the near side of the picture, its nice to see that shade trees will soon be growing there.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b132/HooverDam/downtown%20march%2008/DSC_0845.jpg?t=1206476524
More tracks on Central w/ a planet near the radio stations.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b132/HooverDam/downtown%20march%2008/DSC_0867.jpg?t=1206476576
Central Station

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b132/HooverDam/downtown%20march%2008/DSC_0913.jpg?t=1206476637
Downtown station, this one wasn't blocked off or under any sort of security, so I was able to walk up and explore it a bit more...

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b132/HooverDam/downtown%20march%2008/DSC_0915.jpg?t=1206476678
Shade sales and a digital display

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b132/HooverDam/downtown%20march%2008/DSC_0917.jpg?t=1206476720
Chairs and a planter.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b132/HooverDam/downtown%20march%2008/DSC_0916.jpg?t=1206476389
Well thats a confusing sign. I'm glad it says "Downtown Phoenix", but they're still using the Copper Square logo. Ah well.

[kevininlb]

:previous: Didn't the mayor say a few months back he wanted to drop Copper Square in favor of Downtown? Think so.

Anyway, nothing earth shattering but sort of fun read:


GlobeSt.com Commercial Real Estate News and Property Resource
ANALYSIS Last updated: March 31, 2008 10:34am
Developers Climb Aboard Light-Rail Bandwagon
By Amy Wolff Sorter

PHOENIX-In a $1.7-billion investment, cars will begin to roll on the Valley Metro Light Rail at year's end, creating a 20-mile route that snakes from just north of the CBD to the southeast and into Mesa. As the tracks move horizontally, developers are considering and others begun vertical work on transit-oriented developments.
The high-density, low-acre, mixed-use developments are somewhat unusual in a city like Phoenix, which grew out, rather than up. But Melinda Korth, executive vice president in CB Richard Ellis' Phoenix office, points out that the metro is predicted to grow by at least 2.5 million people in the next 20 years. Transit-oriented developments present a good start on urban core space that will save space and provide important services.

Korth says she became interested in transit-oriented projects as she prepared to market the 291,000-sf Meridian Bank Tower at 3550 N. Central Ave. In marketing the class A office building, she wanted to understand the impact that light rail would have on the property and the neighborhood. "I was blown away by the proposition and value to this part of central Phoenix," she says.

Korth says the light-rail system also is helping in the marketing of Meridian Bank Tower, which sits on 8.8 acres. Korth says much of the acreage is devoted to parking right now. "The light rail can help whoever owns this facility eventually justify converting that extra land to a higher-density use," she explains. "Whoever buys that project could inventory a future development as part of that deal."

Other developers are preparing for future projects along the line as well. Scottsdale, AZ-based RED Development LLC is well under way on the 2.5-million-sf CityScape at 1 E. Washington St., which broke ground in October 2007. Another local developer, Michael Hallmark, has begun work on the Jackson Street Entertainment District, bounded by Central Avenue and Jackson and 4th streets. The project will be a mixed-use entertainment, retail and residential district that will easily top 1.2 million sf.

And, there is Arizona State University. The light rail will connect the school's Downtown campuses to its main campus in Tempe. Ryc Loope, director of the Masters of Real Estate Development Program at ASU, says the connection not only will link several campuses, but help to move students, professors and others from one to another. Much like Korth, Loope says the light rail presents a great opportunity to strengthen the area's urban core.

Developers and designers, for the most part, have had few problems changing their mindsets from developing standard mixed-use projects to a more vertical approach. "The cities of Phoenix, Tempe and Mesa spent time with the design and development community, discussing how the light rail should operate," Loope tells GlobeSt.com. "Many of our leading designers and developers visited other cities and have incorporated what they learned early on in both the design and early rollout of light rail here."

While some developers are staking claims along the light-rail system, other developers are taking a wait-and-see approach, partly because TODs are so new and partly because of the economic slowdown. "Like any new innovation, there are those that will sit back, look at it, see if it works, then go on in," says Richard R. Hubbard, CEO and president with Valley Partnership, a Phoenix-based organization dedicated to urban and sustainable developments.

Although developers already starting their light-rail projects are taking a gamble, Hubbard believes the investment is worth the risk. "They've looked at other cities and have said it's not something they're used to," he acknowledges. "But once people see the advantages of the light rail system, they want to be ready for the influx."

In addition to viewing the TODs as passenger-service centers, Korth considers them "poster children" for other urban cores in Phoenix. "Maricopa County is larger than the state of New Jersey," she says wryly. "We need more urban cores. These transit-oriented developments will be great as a laboratory to get them going. We can take the lessons learned and best practices and move them into the other parts of the Valley."

[Sekkle]

I found this map that I thought was interesting. I had been looking for a map of Phoenix's long-gone streetcar system a while ago, and decided to search again today...
http://archive.azrail.org/railroad/psry/psrymap.gif
source (http://archive.azrail.org/railroad/psry/index.htm)

A lot of cities got rid of their streetcar systems out in favor of catering to cars. What a shame! The system shown in this map would probably be the most extensive streetcar system in the US if it were still around (not counting those dismantled in other cities, of course).

[Tempe_Duck]

A lot of cities got rid of their streetcar systems out in favor of catering to cars. What a shame! The system shown in this map would probably be the most extensive streetcar system in the US if it were still around (not counting those dismantled in other cities, of course).


That is just amazing. Imagine another 60 years of build out and it would be everywhere in the Valley.

[sad face]

How about freeways what is going on with freeways?:???: When we were going to World Wildlife Zoo we had to come back because of a traffic jam:hell: The heat was also intense so imagine being in a car that is not moving during the summer:(

[PhxSprawler]

Gee.. a traffic jam with a heat wave going on in Phoenix? What's next, road construction? That is something no one can really plan for. I hope your day wasn't totally ruined.

[Don B.]

Gee.. a traffic jam with a heat wave going on in Phoenix? What's next, road construction? That is something no one can really plan for. I hope your day wasn't totally ruined.

That's why he has a sad face. :D

--don

[Tempe_Duck]

I found this last night.



$42 billion proposed for state transit plan
by Glen Creno and Matthew Benson

A coalition of Arizona business and political leaders, including Gov. Janet Napolitano, is preparing a 30-year, $42 billion statewide transportation plan that would be presented to voters on the November ballot.

Sources tell The Arizona Republic that the coalition will file ballot language with the Secretary of State's Office in the next couple of weeks in order to begin gathering some of the 153,365 valid signatures it will need to submit by July 3.

The package figures to include a mix of roads and rail, with the highway and transit projects built during three decades.

Leading possibilities for funding include impact fees assessed on new homes, as well as a sales-tax increase up to 1 cent on each $1 purchase. The proposal remains in flux, but some of its key projects include expansion of Interstates 40, 17, 10 and 8; commuter rail between northern Arizona and south of Tucson; expanded light rail in the Valley; rapid-transit buses; and a street-car or rapid-bus system in Tucson.

Supporters of transportation initiatives concede that the timing for a large-scale tax proposal isn't ideal, given the state's slumbering economy.

In the months ahead, look for Napolitano to amplify her call for Arizona residents to weigh the "time tax" they pay each day as they idle in gridlock, losing economic productivity and time with friends and family.

Jeanine L'Ecuyer, spokeswoman for Napolitano, also pointed to a state estimate that found that, if no additional funding sources were identified, the state within two years would only have enough money to maintain existing roads. No new freeways. No additional lane miles.

"If we don't do anything, we're going to be in a world of hurt," L'Ecuyer said. "This is one of those situations, I think, where the price we pay for waiting is much, much worse."

Besides Napolitano, the initiative is led by a group of business and economic interests calling itself the TIME Coalition (Transportation & Infrastructure Moving AZ's Economy).

Members of the coalition had hoped that the state Legislature would refer the proposal to voters, but nearly three months into the session, that push has stalled.

It also has forced the group to gird for a petition drive that would place the measure on the November ballot. Now, a multimillion-dollar initiative campaign appears to be in the offing.

"We feel that it would be a mistake not to get to the ballot as soon as possible," said Martin Shultz, a TIME spokesman and lobbyist for Pinnacle West Capital Corp., parent of Arizona Public Service Co.

"There are critical needs, significant congestion. . . . There is a continuous need to invest and improve this infrastructure.

"People waste valuable time stuck in congestion," Shultz added.

The $42 billion plan is significantly scaled back from a recently completed study by the Arizona Department of Transportation that identified $160 billion in state needs. The report is being presented to local officials across Arizona and is subject to additional changes in the coming weeks.

TIME Coalition polling indicated that voters preferred impact fees and vehicle fees to a tax increase, but only increased sales or personal-income taxes would generate enough money to meet state needs.

State Sen. Ron Gould, one of the biggest roadblocks to the proposal in the Legislature, was skeptical of voters' appetite for new taxes this year.

"They're going to have fun gathering signatures for a tax increase," the Republican from Lake Havasu City scoffed. "I don't really hear the people calling out for a tax increase on transportation."

Complicating matters for initiative supporters, it comes just four years after Maricopa County voters approved a 20-year, $14 billion tax extension for road projects, and right as state government wrestles with a budget shortfall estimated at $3 billion this year and next.

Still, the November ballot has emerged as the preferred option among initiative supporters. Next year's ballot is out of the question, because only constitutional changes can be proposed in odd years.

And 2010 figures to be a politically difficult year, especially because Napolitano may be campaigning for U.S. Senate and not eager to share the ballot with a large transportation tax proposal.

[combusean]

I know there has been some opposition on this board to the I-10 West alignment of light rail, which would essentially bypass Maryvale.

We have been doing what we can to build momentum amongst a culture of disinvolvement to show the City there is demand for an alternative alignment--or at least get MAG to not dismiss an alternative alignment so easy--and we've had some luck.

Incoming district 7 councilman Michael Nowakowski's office is NOT happy about this and we are trying to get the Phoenix Union High School District, who is also not happy about the I-10 alignment to expend some political capital.

This goes before City Council on the consent agenda--which means they might actually not take public comment before they approve it which is pretty screwy in my opinion. They will be voting on it Wednesday, April 16th at 3:00 PM in Council Chambers, 200 W Washington St. A good showing might at least encourage them to take public comment here. If you can't make it I strongly recommend sending an email to the city council: a map of districts are available at http://phoenix.gov/citygov/map.html -- also email mayor.gordon@phoenix.gov . Or email me sean@emvis.net and I'll try to get your feedback in the right place.

Anyways, our points:
- The Green Line, the Thomas Rd bus, has the highest ridership in the system today--more so than the Red Line which got light rail. Rather than upgrade existing, proven routes in the densest contiguous sections of the city, they are creating new service where there is far less built-in demand.

- The new service they are creating will only fill demand during one part of the day--rush hour. The other bus lines--Green, McDowell, Indian School get constant usage and are more deserving of significant capital investment.

- Light rail is a guaranteed tool for revitalization of depressed neighborhoods and can cut crime down in some of Phoenix's toughest intersections.

- The built in TOD and redevelopment potential is far, far greater in Maryvale than along the 10. The middle of a freeway is a horrible place for Maryvale's best redevelopment hopes.

- If the city is truly aspiring to retrofit itself for people as opposed to the automobile, it is time our planning and transit policies actually reflect that. The I-10 West alignment certainly responds to automobile users

- We shouldn't sell out Phoenix so people can get to Westgate a few minutes quicker.

- It won't be open until 2017, but the critical decisions are being made far too early on without other pieces of the pie in place--commuter rail namely. Commuter rail would better directly serve the greater I-10 corridor outside their lame study area and light rail/streetcar service in the community would serve the local traffic needs.

- We are not certain on the local opinion of whether high capacity transit down Thomas Rd or whatever would actually be welcome, tho our own informal surveys suggest it would, definitely more so than the middle of I-10. Regardless, we don't feel Maryvale is being given a choice in the matter.

It appears that the critical decisions have been made before the floodgate of public comments has been opened, and we're not so much seeing a dialogue or a conversation about this but a top-down presentation of what they were going to do anyway.

[Sekkle]

The extension is scheduled to open in 2019, not 2017. Did you attend the public meetings that were held for this project in early March? I'd be curious to know what comments they received during the meeting or in writing.

In any case, if the I-10 alternative were to change, it would require significant political effort, since the route was approved by voters (Prop 400). From Valley Metro's I-10 West Extension webpage (http://www.valleymetro.org/METRO_light_rail/Future_Extensions/West/index.htm)...
Any additional extensions, or any changes to the extensions already included in the Regional Transportation Plan must go through a process outlined in state statute (ARS 28-6353).

The process calls for proposals to be considered by local, county, regional and state agencies and will include representation from elected officials, business interests and citizen groups. Any changes to the Regional Transportation Plan must also be approved by the Maricopa Association of Governments.

In the document they used for the public meetings, there was mention that the I-10 alignment was the only one still under consideration west of 27th avenue. There is not much discussion as to why others were eliminated, but I wasn't at the meetings, so I don't know what they might have discussed that wasn't in the presentation PDF.

[HooverDam]

Incoming district 7 councilman Michael Nowakowski's office is NOT happy about this and we are trying to get the Phoenix Union High School District, who is also not happy about the I-10 alignment to expend some political capital.


I'm glad to hear this. That alone makes me happy that I voted for him in the run off election. I really hope they consider bringing LRT through Maryvale, that area just has a ridiculous amount of potential, I hope it all doesn't go to waste by flinging LRT down I-10 where it will only be used for 6 hours a day.

EDIT: VV Isn't the fact that the way the Fed gives out money for transit projects the biggest reason they want it to run down the I-10? I remember hearing on multiple occasions that the main thing they look at is average train speed, the faster that is, the more likely they are to dole out dollars. Since LRT running down the I-10 would obviously be running at 50-55MPH with very few stops, I think that was a big part of the decision making process.

[combusean]

All the alignments west of 27th Avenue were "eliminated during pre-screening"--there in lies the rub that not enough attention was given to the alternate corridors. In the march meetings, they presented the results of the Tier 1 Analysis where this fact was revealed, and now 5 weeks later the City Council is voting to approve the results of the study or something.

If you notice on the maps, yes they do draw the purple line on the 10 but then again they did draw a study area 1.5 miles north and south of the 10, and alternate alignments were on the table for a little while. I think this thing is being ramrodded down our throats for two reasons: Westgate and the ROW availability in the 10--neither issue should be insurmountable or hold the neighborhood back.

Re 2017/2019 ... that's just the icing on the cake of the duplicitous, incorrect, or otherwise bogus information we've been getting back. We heard the Council policy session where this might be considered was canceled, then we find out the day we heard that information they rescheduled it.

[admdavid]

I can't believe how short-sighted these folks appear to be! The line should run past the State Capitol complex, up 19th Ave past the State Fairgrounds to Thomas and then west to Westgate. It shouldn't even be a serious consideration to run it down the median of the 10. They cite the T-Rex line in Denver but I don't think there's much relevance to the situation in PHX.

[Vicelord John]

Maryvale is probably the one neighborhood in Phoenix that would use the shit out of a light rail. Unfortunately a lot of the thugs that use the existing bus system would only fuck up the trains. I say let em rot.

[Sekkle]

It shouldn't even be a serious consideration to run it down the median of the 10.
Of course it should be a serious consideration. It will allow the trains to be totally separated from traffic, thereby allowing them to travel much faster. Also, construction on I-10 (the median of which exists because of the plan to have transit at some point in the future) will have much less impact to traffic and existing businesses (a huge source of complaints from LRT opponents, and even some who are in favor of it). Whether or not you think it should be the final solution, it should definitely be under consideration for those reasons alone.

[combusean]

Yes, it should be under consideration. But it shouldn't be the only consideration.

[admdavid]

Yes, it should be under consideration. But it shouldn't be the only consideration.

Point taken. :)

[Phxbyrd211]

The best sollution for this dillema is to have commuter rail out west on Van Buren. Light Rail is for the surfface streets.

[PHX31]

Sean's Famous:

Group wants Thomas Road, not I-10, for rapid transit
http://www.azcentral.com/community/phoenix/articles/2008/04/15/20080415phx-alignment0416.html
by Dolores Tropiano - Apr. 15, 2008 01:24 PM
The Arizona Republic
A neighborhood group wants the city to slow down and reconsider Thomas Road as an alternative to the I-10 for rapid transit.

The Phoenix City Council is scheduled to vote Wednesday to put rapid transit along I-10 west between I-17 and the Desert Sky Mall (75th Avenue and Thomas Road), including parts of west Phoenix and Tolleson. Options would include rapid-transit buses and light rail.

The I-10 route is based on an 18-month study that analyzed possible transit improvements in the area. The I-10 West is one of the most frequently used sections of the Valley's freeway system and rapid transit could provide residents a option for commuting and curtail congestion.

Sean Horan, a Phoenix community activist said Thomas Road in Maryvale was ruled out as an alternative too early. He wants more time for research. He is frustrated by attempts to get information from Metro about how studies were done. Metro made the recommendations based on studies it conducted.

"We are basically saying that rather than create a new service on I-10, where demand is limited to rush hour, they should be considering upgrading existing bus lines with high capacity rail-based transit in Maryvale," Horan said.

Light rail often brings new businesses and improvements to areas, and Horan believes it could help cut down crime in this high density area and help with revitalization efforts.

City and Metro officials were not available for comment.

The issue will be taken up at the 3 p.m. meeting Wednesday of the Phoenix City Council, which meets at City Council Chambers, 200 W. Jefferson Street.



We all need to at least try to back Sean up and post some comments as the f'cking morons who tend to frequent the member's comments section are bound to start talking shit.

[HooverDam]

The line should run past the State Capitol complex, up 19th Ave past the State Fairgrounds to Thomas and then west to Westgate.

This alignment so obviously makes the most sense, that it hurts my teeth that our 'leaders' don't see it. It would connect not only the State Capitol and the Fairgrounds, but also Phoenix College and the Desert Sky area.

Id also like to see a North-South LRT line running up and down 51st Avenue. It could run from 51st Ave and Thomas, north to Maryvale Park. It could either keep running on 51st Ave or turn onto Maryvale Parkway in order to serve the various office complexes in there (and obviously LRT would help bring more density and offices to that area). Perhaps there could be a stop at Bethany Home/Grand/51st Avenue to connect with future Commuter Rail running adjacent to Grand. Then a stop on Glendale and 51st Ave to serve the Downtown Glendale Area (I'd also imagine an East-West line along Glendale Ave). There could possibly be a stop at Olive as on the SW Corner there is a huge TOD opportunity there. Then up to Thunderbird Blvd to connect with ASU West and then West along TBird to 59th Ave (and slightly north up 59th Ave) to connect the Thunderbird Business School and the Hospital/medical complexes there.

[Sekkle]

the f'cking morons who tend to frequent the member's comments section are bound to start talking shit.
Looks like it has started already.

Congrats, Sean. I'm not totally in agreement with you on this, but I can understand your points. And I have searched pretty extensively through Valley Metro and MAGs websites and reports and haven't found anything about other alternatives considered, so it would be nice to know if they did that. In any case, it's pretty impressive that you are making your voice heard on this, so kudos.

[CANUC]

Sean's Famous:

Group wants Thomas Road, not I-10, for rapid transit
http://www.azcentral.com/community/phoenix/articles/2008/04/15/20080415phx-alignment0416.html
by Dolores Tropiano - Apr. 15, 2008 01:24 PM
The Arizona Republic


We all need to at least try to back Sean up and post some comments as the f'cking morons who tend to frequent the member's comments section are bound to start talking shit.

Yeah, there really slamming him over there. I would post but I don't have a profile and I don't think it would be worth the effort since most of the idiots that post on that forum seem like nothing more than a bunch of six-pack joes that turn every article in a flame war about illegal immigration.

[PHX31]

Hold on, here are some questions maybe Sean can clear up:

1. The current extension we are talking about (I-10) is only aligned west of 27th Ave - they "approved" the alignment to go down I-10. Do we know if it is supposed to run past the capitol complex (that would be a MAJOR area light rail should serve)?

2. Why all the talk about Westgate along this extension? Isn't there another "Glendale" extension that is supposed to go to Westgate - via downtown Glendale? That seems like an obvious link. What's up with that?

If I'm right about number 2 (the Glendale Extension will in fact go to Westgate)... or if I'm wrong, I should be right... then why not make a loop out of the west side (I-10 and Glendale) extensions? It seems silly to have two "spurs" parallel each other just a couple miles from each other. What if you live near 75th Ave and Thomas and want to go to Westgate? Most likely everyone will drive, but if you wanted to take the rail you'd have to go all the way downtown, then get on the starter line and go north, then get on the glendale extension to Westgate. If there was a loop, more people might take the train to Westgate.

(maybe they're both supposed to go to Westgate, i don't know.)

[Sekkle]

1. The current extension we are talking about (I-10) is only aligned west of 27th Ave - they "approved" the alignment to go down I-10. Do we know if it is supposed to run past the capitol complex (that would be a MAJOR area light rail should serve)?

From this PDF (http://www.valleymetro.org/METRO_light_rail/Future_Extensions/West/030508_I-10_Public_Meeting_presentationm.pdf)...
http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/549/westphxalts2xs1.jpg

[combusean]

The alignment east of 27th Avenue will be decided later on.

Wednesday's Council vote is on the alignment west of 27th Avenue which is right now relegated to I-10.

2. Why all the talk about Westgate along this extension? Isn't there another "Glendale" extension that is supposed to go to Westgate - via downtown Glendale? That seems like an obvious link. What's up with that?"

I have no idea. The two were first brought up in an article I posted here at http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=123666&page=9

Why they're selling out Maryvale to bring people to Westgate a couple minutes quicker is bad enough as it is. It gets worse when we consider that the Northern Avenue line is under study today, and that should go as far as Westgate as well.

I've talked to about 10 neighborhood associations in and around/bordering the Metro study area. None had heard from Metro directly regarding the proposal. That's my other smoking gun. :)

[scottkag]

I've talked to about 10 neighborhood associations in and around/bordering the Metro study area. None had heard from Metro directly regarding the proposal. That's my other smoking gun. :)

You go Sean! It's about time for Phoenix's back-room good ole boys to realize they are accountable to the public.

[combusean]

The PDF of my presentation in a few hours (hopefully).

http://emvis.net/~sean/ssp/metro_I-10_west_city_council_comments.pdf

[Phxbyrd211]

sean may not get this by the time he needs to leave but I wonder if he's considered Indian School for the lightrail line instead of Thomas. Wouldn't that still incorporate all communities north of the I-10 but also reach the most crime-ridden parts of the city? Also, I want to make sure you'd still be in favor of higher speed, higher capacity commuter rail along Van Buren.

[HX_Guy]

This is not good...

Breaks found on 14 more areas of light rail

5 comments by Casey Newton - Apr. 16, 2008 03:44 PM
The Arizona Republic

New tests on the Valley's light-rail line found the number of damaged areas to be nearly double what was first thought, requiring at least 31 sections of rail to be replaced before the system opens Dec. 27.

Repairs are under way on the 20-mile starter line now under construction. The work follows a report that blamed the weakened steel on the use of torches to cut drainage openings in the track.

Fixing the rails will cost more than $600,000. While Metro light rail said it would not pay the cost, it remains unclear who will be held responsible.

From December to January, Metro light-rail track inspectors found rail damage in 17 locations from central Phoenix to east Tempe, with gaps in the track as wide as 7 inches.

Further tests have revealed another 14 areas that need to be replaced.

Metro CEO Rick Simonetta said he was relieved that more sections of rail did not need to be replaced. "This is really good news," he said. "This could have been catastrophic."

Metro construction chief Brian Buchanan said cooling temperatures this winter could lead to further cracking in the system. Cold temperatures are thought to have caused the rails to break after having been weakened by torches.

"As we move into another weather cycle, we obviously may have some more breaks," Buchanan said.

Simonetta said the worst was over, and that the system would still open on time and on budget.

[HooverDam]

I went to the City Council meeting today (Sean was there as well), and to sum it up, they're pretty set on LRT going down the I-10. What it seems to come down to is that the way the Federal Gov't. gives out the money is based on how fast the trains can run (i.e. max speed and moving the max number of people), and it can run 55pmh on the I-10 versus a much slower speed on an arterial street.

[andrewkfromaz]

If that's true, that's a convincing argument. I think as Phoenix evolves, as people's perspectives on gas prices and transit change, that we can see more dense, revitalization-style development without LRT, along bus routes. We'll see. I definitely don't believe that Arizona should pay billions of dollars more to build LRT down Thomas McDowell. I don't think it's the right answer. I wish they'd have studied it more.

[Phxbyrd211]

Phoenix would be better off putting off this extention and doing it right when funding is available than to do the wrong thing now.

[Vicelord John]

I think they should build it down Encanto... that way it doesn't displace as much heavy traffic, will reach lots of residental areas, and will be cheaper to construct (not as many utilities to move.)

[combusean]

Personally I think the best option out of this is a managed HOT (High Occupancy Toll) setup on the 10 that can handle express buses w/ freeway stops, toll paying solo drivers, and maybe HOV 3+ all in the same lane. Since doing this is like 10x cheaper per passenger mile than LRT in the median according to ADOT study #582, I believe there could be money left over for a Thomas Rd modern streetcar. A modern streetcar is a more community-friendly direct bus replacement that will be cheaper to run long term and won't have that significant a construction impact on local businesses given utilities do not need to be relocated.

I think the industrial sprawl south of I-10 and those neighborhoods would be better served by a combination of LRT/streetcar doglegs to the south, good circulators, and commuter rail at the spine. On the other hand, I don't think Valley Metro Rail understands UP's obstinacy on usage of their tracks--we need to definitively figure out if they will let us do this before we dedicate the ROW we do have to something else entirely.

I hardly believe andrew that we can actually get TOD out of a bus system. I think for the long-term economics, we should really start thinking about upgrading buses with streetcars. They will last much longer and should be cleaner--electricity ought to be better than CNG.

[Don B.]

What about a bus "rail" system - running in it's own lane? In other words, take the BRT-type buses and put them in their own dedicated lane, with nice light-rail type of bus stops? Isn't putting rails in the street for heavy light rail cars where the big money starts racking up?

Sean, I want to express my gratitude for all of your hard work. Impressive! :)

--don

[shawneriksmith]

For once I agree with Don B on something...I know a lot of people who commute from the SE valley and want to use the BRT from Pecos Park-and-Ride to DT Phoenix but don't see the point considering that they're stuck in the same traffic. They should have separate lanes for the BRT buses...much less expensive and faster to implement. Then, they can start looking at other transit options as Phoenix continues to grow...