Metro Phoenix Transit/Transportation Developments

[PHX31]

I still think they are fine the way that they are, but if they are going to change them, make 7th Ave North-bound only and make 7th Street South-bound only. Make both sides of the street available for parking during non-peak hours/weekends.

Worst idea ever. Not just commuters use the 7s.

[glynnjamin]

Worst idea ever. Not just commuters use the 7s.

How is it the worst idea ever? It works for 3rd and 5th?
And how do one-way streets only benefit commuters? If that were true, every downtown in America wouldn't be full of one-way streets...right? One way streets make things like bike lanes and bus lanes more usable. Since all traffic is moving in one direction, thru-traffic can move to the middle, while everyone else stays on the outside. You want more people to stop in front of shops on the 7s, add parking on the street.

All you seem to care about it a)making it more pedestrian friendly, reducing accidents, and making it easier. Seems like one-way streets accomplish all of those things.

[HooverDam]

^3rd and 5th Ave are right next to each other, just like Washington and Jefferson and most one way pairs. The 7's are a mile away from each other, so it would be ridiculous to make them each one way. That means people would have to go way out of their way for a switch in direction, it would cause a lot more traffic on minor streets (people wanting to Uturn off 7th St for instance and going through a neighborhood on 6th or 8th).

We need complete streets, if traffic increases a bit, who cares? Phoenix has no traffic compared to most big cities.

[PHX31]

How is it the worst idea ever? It works for 3rd and 5th?
And how do one-way streets only benefit commuters? If that were true, every downtown in America wouldn't be full of one-way streets...right? One way streets make things like bike lanes and bus lanes more usable. Since all traffic is moving in one direction, thru-traffic can move to the middle, while everyone else stays on the outside. You want more people to stop in front of shops on the 7s, add parking on the street.

All you seem to care about it a)making it more pedestrian friendly, reducing accidents, and making it easier. Seems like one-way streets accomplish all of those things.

They're not at all similar to a downtown, or close to downtown, street that is (or could be) a one-way street.

A better idea would be to turn the 7s into pedestrian and segway and bike malls, then build hover freeways along their exact alignments that run from Sunnyslope into downtown.

[Vicelord John]

I have no problem with one-way streets, but as wide as those streets are it would be overkill. I don't understand the thought that traffic on the 7's is so bad... it isn't.

[Tempe_Duck]

Looking better for HSR from Phoenix to Vegas/LA....

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2010/10/29/20101029phoenix-high-speed-rail.html

Feds to fund study of Phoenix, LA and Vegas bullet train

34 comments by Sean Holstege - Oct. 29, 2010 12:00 AM
The Arizona Republic

Arizona now has a stake in the game for high-speed rail linked to the rest of the country.

The federal government announced Thursday that it will spend $500,000 to begin studying the practicality of linking Phoenix, Las Vegas and Los Angeles by high-speed rail.

A year ago, when the Obama administration unveiled its national rail strategy, all the states in the mountain West were overlooked. None of the $8 billion in grants and no lines were considered for the fast-growing region.

On Thursday, U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood announced a second round of rail funding totaling $2.4 billion, and the government issued a new map. Arizona connects to the emerging national rail network by dotted lines to Las Vegas and Los Angeles, signifying routes to be studied. In the often glacial world of transportation policy, that counts as progress.

"It's a start. We have a line on a map now," said Eric Anderson, transportation director at the Maricopa Association of Governments, a regional planning agency. "The money's not going to go very far."

He and Shannon Scutari, rail planner for the Arizona Department of Transportation, hope there is enough to finish a rough conceptual study. It would be many years before rail came to fruition.

The study would model the demand for travel between the three cities. ADOT and MAG hope the results will justify funding more-rigorous planning later.

The difference this year? A new organization was formed last year to lobby to include the region in the federal government's rail thinking. Regional governments in five Western states, including MAG, joined hands to make the case.

Along the way, the new group, the Western High Speed Rail Alliance, lined up key allies, including Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid of Nevada. Two weeks ago, the alliance convened many top political and rail-industry leaders in Las Vegas to showcase their cause. The inaugural conference was timed to coincide with the opening of the nearby Hoover Dam bypass route and bridge.

Since President Obama announced his intention in 2009 to invest in a national rail system, the appetite from states has been insatiable, the competition for federal dollars fierce.

In the first round in August 2009, the government reviewed $105 billion in grant requests from 40 states and awarded $8 billion. This year, the Federal Railroad Administration received 132 requests totaling $8.8 billion. Anderson said Western rail supporters sought $5 million and received a tenth of that.

Many years, maybe decades, could pass before Phoenix-area residents would be taking fast trains on the 280-mile journey to Las Vegas. California's proposed 800-mile network was first studied in the 1990s and became a serious possibility only when voters in that state approved a $10 billion bond in 2008.

High-speed "bullet trains" first appeared in Japan in the 1960s. The closest thing to a bullet train in the United States is the Boston-New York-Washington Acela Corridor, whose trains are capable of reaching 150 mph but rarely top 100 mph.

The U.S. government defines high-speed rail as an intercity system that carries trains that routinely travel faster than 125 mph. Many bullet-train systems are capable of reaching 225 mph.

High-speed rail works best for business travelers and tourists making trips from 200 to 500 miles. Shorter than that, cars make more sense. Farther, air travel is easier.

Before Arizona gets a bullet train, planners must first demonstrate that a rail link makes economic sense. Assuming more study money becomes available, boosters will have to develop a business plan and begin assessing the environmental consequences of building new track. Getting political and financial backing for that will be difficult.

Engineering, design and construction will be hugely expensive. California's system was estimated to cost $35 billion a decade ago. Some current estimates approach $45 billion. High-speed rail works well only with gentle slopes and curves and separating tracks from other transportation systems. That means getting to Las Vegas or Los Angeles will require tunnels and bridges and major work in the mountains near the Colorado River. The new bypass bridge was not built with the weight and right of way of rail in mind.

For now, ADOT's Scutari is hopeful.

"This is very significant for Arizona. It's a recognition that our partnership with other states is worthy of taking this to the next level," she said.



Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2010/10/29/20101029phoenix-high-speed-rail.html#ixzz13lc21DHk

[Don B.]

$45 billion? Har de har har... that's going to happen in our lifetimes. Right...

--don

[phoenixboi08]

$45 billion? Har de har har... that's going to happen in our lifetimes. Right...

--don

Not if things keep proceeding like that recent "spectacle" in Jersey :/

[PHX4LIFE]

I was on azcentral.com and I noticed something about local bands making songs for Valley Metro. Well here its is:

http://www.valleymetro.org/notes/topic/ridelrebn/

(Its about the lightrail)

[HooverDam]

update on the Tempe trolley...

Tempe hoping to create $160 million streetcar system

27 comments by Dianna M. Náñez - Dec. 13, 2010 02:21 PM
The Arizona Republic

A three-year study aimed at improving transportation options south of the light rail line has culminated in a plan to fund a $160 million streetcar-transit project that would travel roughly along Mill Avenue between Southern Avenue and Rio Salado Parkway.

If federal funding for the project is approved , the streetcar would be operating in late 2016.

Tempe officials hope the project will spur economic development along the 2.6 mile rail line that would travel through downtown Tempe and south toward U.S. 60. Tempe officials have pointed to the new business development that Portland and Seattle experienced after building a streetcar as evidence of how Tempe would benefit from following that transit model.


"The streetcar is an investment in the community that can spur positive redevelopment and reinvestment in central Tempe neighborhoods," said Tempe transportation spokeswoman Amanda Nelson

The streetcar is similar to light rail in that it runs on a rail line, but streetcars are smaller in both length and width than light rail vehicles. The stops along a streetcar line are similar to bus stops and more frequent than light rail stops. Streetcars run on electricity and as a single car where light rail usually runs linked by two or more cars.

The Tempe South transit study is one of six Metro light rail studies aimed at analyzing areas in Tempe, Glendale, central Mesa and Northwest, Northeast and West Phoenix where there is a high demand for public transportation.

The Maricopa Association of Governments had identified about 37 miles of high-capacity transit corridors in the Valley and funded the studies as part of MAG's Regional Transportation Plan. Metro light rail in partnership with the cities has examined specific transit routes for corridors and whether light rail, bus-rapid transit, local bus service or some other mode of transportation would best serve each corridor.

The regional approval last week, cleared the way for the 2.6 mile $160 million streetcar project.

Hillary Foose of Metro light rail said that about half of the funding for the project would come from Proposition 400, which was passed by Maricopa County voters in 2004 and extended a voter-approved half-cent-per-dollar sales tax by two decades. Metro will apply early next year for a federal transportation grant to fund the other half.

Operational costs are estimated at $3 million a year.

With sales tax revenue down across the Valley, Tempe does not have money to fund operations. As part of a three-year plan to deal with the sales-tax revenue decline and make the city's transit system more sustainable, Tempe has made widespread transportation cuts, which have included limiting bus and free Orbit shuttle services. Meetings to gather public feedback on additional cuts are planned for early next year.

Nelson said options for funding streetcar operations "are literally being worked on as we speak." Tempe is reviewing ways to increase revenue, how much savings would come from eliminating duplicative bus transit where the streetcar would travel and how much sales tax revenue is expected to improve by 2017 when the streetcar would begin operating.

Foose said that some residents think the money would be better spent on boosting bus services.

"There are a lot of questions about funding for this project," she said. "We have to explain that the money we have cannot be used for current (transit) operations. It's capital funds-these are funds to build high-capacity transit improvements in the Tempe/Chandler area."



Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/community/tempe/articles/2010/12/13/20101213tempe-street-car-transit-system1215.html#ixzz187vpPqri

[phoenixboi08]

update on the Tempe trolley...

Not being a smart-ass or anything.....but, wouldn't it make more sense to keep the same "form" going?
(i.e. just extend the existing light-rail)?

[HooverDam]

Not being a smart-ass or anything.....but, wouldn't it make more sense to keep the same "form" going?
(i.e. just extend the existing light-rail)?

Light Rail is a different technology than a modern streetcar and they have different uses. Light Rail general runs on its own track, Streetcar can share a right of way with cars. Light Rail moves faster, stops less, has multiple car trains, etc.

Think of the various forms of train transportation in relation to different types of roads:

High Speed Train::Cross Country Interstate
Commuter Train::Freeway/Highway
Light Rail::Arterial Road (McDowell, Indian School, Bell, etc)
Modern Streetcar::Collector Street (Roosevelt, 3rd Ave, etc)
Heritage Streetcar/Trolly::Neighborhood Street (Portland, Encanto, etc)

That Southern link through Tempe isn't as dense and just won't necessitate LRT. Its great to see at least one City in the Valley 'getting it' and realizing a comprehensive transportation portfolio with lots of options is what is best for everyone.

[Tempe_Duck]

Light Rail is a different technology than a modern streetcar and they have different uses. Light Rail general runs on its own track, Streetcar can share a right of way with cars. Light Rail moves faster, stops less, has multiple car trains, etc.

Think of the various forms of train transportation in relation to different types of roads:

High Speed Train::Cross Country Interstate
Commuter Train::Freeway/Highway
Light Rail::Arterial Road (McDowell, Indian School, Bell, etc)
Modern Streetcar::Collector Street (Roosevelt, 3rd Ave, etc)
Heritage Streetcar/Trolly::Neighborhood Street (Portland, Encanto, etc)

That Southern link through Tempe isn't as dense and just won't necessitate LRT. Its great to see at least one City in the Valley 'getting it' and realizing a comprehensive transportation portfolio with lots of options is what is best for everyone.


Does anyone know where they are going to put the maintenance factuality at? How about how it is going to deal with crossing over the light rail tracks?

[Leo the Dog]

Does anyone know where they are going to put the maintenance factuality at? How about how it is going to deal with crossing over the light rail tracks?

Or under the RR tracks north of Broadway.

[bwonger06]

Is light rail right for South Phoenix?

7 comments by Sean Holstege - Dec. 27, 2010 12:00 AM
The Arizona Republic

Valley rail planners are asking a million-dollar question: Would south Phoenix residents ride a light-rail line enough to justify building one?

Valley Metro, the agency that built and runs the 20-mile starter light-rail line, is weeks away from picking a consultant to provide the answer.

Armed with a $400,000 congressional earmark and $100,000 from the city of Phoenix, Metro expects to hire a consultant by March and spend 18 months figuring out if spending many millions of dollars on a rail line in south Phoenix makes sense.



Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/community/phoenix/articles/2010/12/27/20101227light-rail-south-phoenix.html#ixzz19IRlYFn5

http://www.azcentral.com/i/A/3/0/PHP4D17FAA58003A.jpg

Hope everyone is enjoying the holidays!

Back to some development news, interesting article on LR expansion. What do you guys think about a LR segment down in S.Phx?

Personally, I don't think density is enough to warrant LR. It is something similar to what we see between 12th street and 32nd. I am, however, for street cars as they have been proven to be as effective in spurring growth while minimizing cost. Street cars also allow more flexibility in neighborhoods where pickups tend to be much more variable.

[exit2lef]

http://www.azcentral.com/i/A/3/0/PHP4D17FAA58003A.jpg

Hope everyone is enjoying the holidays!

Back to some development news, interesting article on LR expansion. What do you guys think about a LR segment down in S.Phx?

Personally, I don't think density is enough to warrant LR. It is something similar to what we see between 12th street and 32nd. I am, however, for street cars as they have been proven to be as effective in spurring growth while minimizing cost. Street cars also allow more flexibility in neighborhoods where pickups tend to be much more variable.

The Central Avenue 0 bus route is pretty heavily traveled south of Downtown. Regardless of density, there's a large transit-dependent population in the neighborhoods below I-17. Their needs to be weighed in deciding future routes. My ideal scenario: An L-shaped route that heads down Central to Baseline. From that intersection, it turns east and serves South Mountain Community College and maybe some of the office parks near the Phoenix / Tempe border (e.g. The Cotton Center). Maybe it could even continue into Ahwatukee, although I'd suspect neighborhood resistance there would be fierce. It's all a long shot, but a guy can dream.

[Leo the Dog]

I've always thought LR would be perfect in S. Phx along Central Ave.

It'd be nice if it went to the east along baseline to AZ Mills transit center, its just too bad that the city of Phx just refurbished the Baseline Corridor a few years back.

[glynnjamin]

I've always thought LR would be perfect in S. Phx along Central Ave.

It'd be nice if it went to the east along baseline to AZ Mills transit center, its just too bad that the city of Phx just refurbished the Baseline Corridor a few years back.


Central to Baseline and then East on Baseline to AZ Mills would be a great route. It would need to have almost 0 stops between 24th St and 40th Street though. That area is just not dense enough for LRT to be helpful. I would just love to see one more Spring Training ballpark be close to a LRT stop. The plan all along should have been to connect as many of those areas as possible to LRT. Peoria Sports Complex is a perfect location for one, AZ Mills/Tempe Diablo is another, and the potential Mesa Riverview Cubs location is another absolute must for rail transit (albeit a Rio Salado Streetcar would be a better solution there).

[HooverDam]

The Central Avenue 0 bus route is pretty heavily traveled south of Downtown. Regardless of density, there's a large transit-dependent population in the neighborhoods below I-17. Their needs to be weighed in deciding future routes. My ideal scenario: An L-shaped route that heads down Central to Baseline. From that intersection, it turns east and serves South Mountain Community College and maybe some of the office parks near the Phoenix / Tempe border (e.g. The Cotton Center). Maybe it could even continue into Ahwatukee, although I'd suspect neighborhood resistance there would be fierce. It's all a long shot, but a guy can dream.

Agreed 100%. Why is it that people who know the City can easily realize which routes are best yet the morons at Metro continually pick/look into bizarre routes and try to do retarded things like put LRT down the 10? So frustrating.

Eventually I think LRT could also run West from Central to about 35th Ave to serve Laveen and the core area of Cesar Chavez HS & Park and the library there. That area is too low density currently to need LRT, but with proper planning that could change. Though I know there have been issues with NIMBYs in Laveen fighting density in the past, of course they don't realize that the denser the new developments, the more of their open space and farmland they get to keep.

[plinko]

The extension into South Phoenix on Central is a no-brainer. Running east on Baseline to Arizona Mills is another part of this that makes sense. From there it would set up a nice extension along Southern all the way out to Superstition Springs (allowing for mass redevelopment in Tempe, hitting Desert Sam Hospital, MCC, a future redeveloped Fiesta Mall area, not far from the East Valley Government Center at Mesa Dr, and then the Superstition Springs node).

I think the original starter extension into DT Mesa should turn south and run along Arizona Avenue to DT Chandler (connecting with the oft-dreamed about Scottsdale Road line that would end up in DT Chandler)

I don't see anything SW of downtown Phoenix ever having the density to warrant rail. Not in the next 30 years anyway. If Laveen fills in, I'd suspect it'll be the 4,000psm suburban variety over the 8,000 psm semi-urban variety of development that is now appearing in many nodes of the Valley. Hopefully I'm wrong about that though.

Screw Ahwatukee and all that it encompasses. Rail in the freeway is stupid and shortsighted.

[PHX31]

Screw Ahwatukee and all that it encompasses. Rail in the freeway is stupid and shortsighted.

It's definitely short sighted. the only reason they're pushing for rail down the freeways is because the initial costs (r/w acquisition, etc.) are much lower.

[Don B.]

^ It would be cool if they tunnelled through South Mountain and put a light rail stop (with park and ride) near Chandler Blvd. on the other side of Central Avenue. Probably not gonna happen in my lifetime, though.

--don

[exit2lef]

I don't see anything SW of downtown Phoenix ever having the density to warrant rail. Not in the next 30 years anyway. If Laveen fills in, I'd suspect it'll be the 4,000psm suburban variety over the 8,000 psm semi-urban variety of development that is now appearing in many nodes of the Valley. Hopefully I'm wrong about that though.



I realize that the I-10 alignment for the western light rail extension is not popular on this board, but I think that will be the line that serves Laveen via park-and-rides. As you suggest, I don't think Laveen will become dense and walkable, but its residents might be willing to split the difference on their commutes, particularly if gas prices go up toward $4 or higher.

[bwonger06]

The Central Avenue 0 bus route is pretty heavily traveled south of Downtown. Regardless of density, there's a large transit-dependent population in the neighborhoods below I-17. Their needs to be weighed in deciding future routes. My ideal scenario: An L-shaped route that heads down Central to Baseline. From that intersection, it turns east and serves South Mountain Community College and maybe some of the office parks near the Phoenix / Tempe border (e.g. The Cotton Center). Maybe it could even continue into Ahwatukee, although I'd suspect neighborhood resistance there would be fierce. It's all a long shot, but a guy can dream.

As narcissistic as it sounds, this is not how the world works any more, especially today when the local government is hemorrhaging money and federal funding is going to start to dwindle.

Everything has to be looked at from an economic standpoint. Every dollar you put in, you want at least two coming out of it. Assuming you bring it down central and ended it around Baseline, you are looking at $400 million price tag. To generate double that in investments in that area (especially anything south of the 17), would be next to impossible. I am all for greater density but this area needs much more than the light rail to prosper.

Certain areas are prime prime for light rail, especially the South Scottsdale area. You already have investments in the area with Skysong, ON Semiconductors and General Dynamics all in the general area. (will never happen because Scottsdale is too stubborn)

[HooverDam]

^ It would be cool if they tunnelled through South Mountain and put a light rail stop (with park and ride) near Chandler Blvd. on the other side of Central Avenue. Probably not gonna happen in my lifetime, though.

--don

Is this a joke...? Images of a tunnel going through S. Mountain is partially why Val Trans failed.

I realize that the I-10 alignment for the western light rail extension is not popular on this board, but I think that will be the line that serves Laveen via park-and-rides. As you suggest, I don't think Laveen will become dense and walkable, but its residents might be willing to split the difference on their commutes, particularly if gas prices go up toward $4 or higher.

Why wouldn't the MAG planned commuter rail serve Laveen then? The I-10 alignment is just moronic and a complete misunderstanding of Phoenix and its urban fabric. We don't have some mega downtown that everyone travels to and from like a lot of East Coast cities. Our rail system so far connects various nodes and hubs, and it should continue to do so.

Running LRT down a street like Thomas would allow connections to the Fairgrounds, Maryvale, its community center, the baseball stadium, Desert Sky Mall, Cricket Pavillion, etc. Instead we'll get a line thats only used during the rush hour and 75% of the day will sit empty as people blow by it at 75mph while the train goes 50mph and has to make stops.

BRT, which could run a lot of buses during rush hour and then just a few during the day makes vastly more sense for the I-10 median, especially considering the impending MAG Commuter line- which if popular enough could mean the BRT could be gotten rid of and those lanes could become extra freeway lanes.

[Buckeye Native 001]

As a former/future resident of Ahwatukee with parents who still live there: That worthless piece of shit can't get fucked enough. Let 'em rot.

[exit2lef]

Why wouldn't the MAG planned commuter rail serve Laveen then? The I-10 alignment is just moronic and a complete misunderstanding of Phoenix and its urban fabric. We don't have some mega downtown that everyone travels to and from like a lot of East Coast cities. Our rail system so far connects various nodes and hubs, and it should continue to do so.

Running LRT down a street like Thomas would allow connections to the Fairgrounds, Maryvale, its community center, the baseball stadium, Desert Sky Mall, Cricket Pavillion, etc. Instead we'll get a line thats only used during the rush hour and 75% of the day will sit empty as people blow by it at 75mph while the train goes 50mph and has to make stops.

BRT, which could run a lot of buses during rush hour and then just a few during the day makes vastly more sense for the I-10 median, especially considering the impending MAG Commuter line- which if popular enough could mean the BRT could be gotten rid of and those lanes could become extra freeway lanes.

I'm not really a fan of the I-10 alignment -- for all the reasons you identify. I'm just saying that if it's built that way, which appears likely, it will serve Laveen as a sort of commuter train using LRT technology.

[HooverDam]

I'm not really a fan of the I-10 alignment -- for all the reasons you identify. I'm just saying that if it's built that way, which appears likely, it will serve Laveen as a sort of commuter train using LRT technology.

Oh, ok, gotcha. Sorry to fly off the handle a bit there, the I-10 alignment just drives me nutty as Im sure you know. I just can't see why the City is so adamant about it other than its the cheapest way to go.

[HooverDam]

Mesa light-rail extension gives city second chance

32 comments by Jim Walsh - Jan. 15, 2011 06:13 AM
The Arizona Republic

West Mesa's assortment of boarded-up fast-food restaurants, an abandoned supermarket, run-down motels and unattractive trailer parks didn't exactly impress a woman from Ohio riding the Metro light rail for the first time during the holidays.

"She really liked Tempe, going over the bridge. She wanted to get back to Mill Avenue" for lunch, said Jim McPherson, a Phoenix historic preservationist, when asked about his mother Bea's reaction to Mesa's gateway along the light-rail line.

"They really should start looking at what people see on both sides," he said. "It's a no-man's land. You need a little more there for synergy."


Mesa officials cringe a little at such a reaction but say they've already heard the message.

Mesa has been at the end of the original 20-mile light-rail line in more ways than one, failing to reap the strong economic impact experienced from Metro by Tempe and parts of Phoenix.

West Mesa City Council member Dave Richins, a longtime light-rail advocate, said the city failed to make its first light-rail station at Sycamore and Main Street more pedestrian-friendly with larger sidewalks, more shade and places to sit.

"We didn't have any specific zoning. We didn't do anything that Tempe and Phoenix did to nudge development," Richins said. "We've learned a lesson from other communities on what they've done to prepare for light rail. You have a council and mayor willing to say we value light rail."

Mesa officials are meticulously planning rail stations along the 3.1-mile extension through downtown Mesa that is expected to open in 2016, hoping to learn from mistakes and maximize the economic impact. For example:

- Mike James, Mesa's assistant transportation director, said Metro has been "strongly encouraged"to consider using the 1912 locomotive at Pioneer Park as part of its design for the Mesa Drive park-and-ride lot expected to be built near the Mormon Temple.

- Shea Joachim, an economic development project manager, said officials are preparing a plan for reducing the economic burden on downtown businesses from three years of anticipated light-rail construction. Details are expected to emerge in a month to six weeks.

- Melissa Woodall, a newly hired downtown project manager, said she is preparing a marketing plan aimed at recruiting transportation-oriented development projects on downtown properties, including city-owned sites. A major overhaul to the city's zoning code should be completed this year, making it easier to build projects incorporating a mix of retail, commercial and residential components, she said.

"We don't want to send the message that all of these economic opportunities will rise up in the ashes of what we already have there," Joachim said. "It's a delicate balance. We are very appreciative of the people who run their businesses in Mesa."

Ben Limmer,Metro's planning manager, said Metro has worked with a committee of Mesa residents and business residents for seven months designing the Alma School Road, Country Club Drive, Center Street and Mesa Drive stations.

In each case, Metro plans to build the stations east of the intersection, combining functionality with the best potential for economic development, he said.

"Economic development was certainly one of the primary considerations," Limmer said,

He said the Sycamore Station now serves as mainly an access point for commuters because it is at the end of the rail line, with many people either driving to the park-and-ride lot or making connections from buses.

Although the Sycamore station is Metro's busiest, its function will change once Mesa Drive becomes the end of the line station, Limmer said.

"The primary function will move from a commuter accessing point and evolve to something else," Limmer said. Likely possibilities include transit-oriented developments incorporating the kind of commercial, residential and retail elements that have sprung up in parts of Phoenix and Tempe.

Don Mortensen, a co-owner of Light Rail Advisors, a real-estate brokerage, said he has seen a few businesses immediately adjacent to the Sycamore Station prosper, but the economic downtown and the lack of financing delayed plans for a large apartment complex.

Although apartment complexes aimed at Arizona State University students are thriving along light rail in Tempe, "Mesa has been on the end of the development side," he said.

Just across the Mesa border in Tempe, crews are busy building Apache Trails,a 75-unit federally subsidized apartment complex for deaf seniors that is expected to open this summer, said Larry Schmalz,a Tempe planner.

Despite the recession, light rail has been a major stimulant to construction and business development in Tempe, he said.

"It's an evolution. It takes a while for it all to come together. It's one project at a time," Schmalz said.

But Mortensen and Teresa Brice,a former Mesa mayoral candidate and now executive director of the Local Initiatives Support Corp. in Phoenix, agreed that it's not fair to blame light rail for the west Mesa corridor's downward slide either. They noted the area was in decline for at least a decade after the closure of a large Motorola plant and other factors.

Mortensen said that since Jan. 1, he has been receiving more inquiries about the sites near the Sycamore Station. The 3.5- to 4-acre site is strewn with trash and partially paved. Commuters walk past it on the way to their cars in the park and ride lot.

"I actually do feel very optimistic that something will happen on it," he said.



Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/community/mesa/articles/2011/01/14/20110114mesa-light-rail-plan.html#ixzz1BFwDSpMP

Light-rail construction schedule

• 2011 - Design work continues.

• 2012 - Construction delays begin as crews move utilities in preparation of construction.

• 2013-16 - Heavy construction under way as crews install tracks, build stations and parking facilities between Sycamore and Mesa Drive. A site for a park-and-ride has not been chosen.

Helping businesses

• Mesa business owners are forming a focus group open to the public that will give city officials input. They will keep the public informed about light rail's progress.

• Plans to reduce the economic impact of construction on downtown businesses will include a campaign to urge the public to use backdoor entrances with better signage.



Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/community/mesa/articles/2011/01/14/20110114mesa-light-rail-plan.html#ixzz1BFwRK7Zg

I'm a bit confused that they're only talking about extending the LRT as far East as Mesa Drive. Wasn't it just a while ago that the next leg in Mesa was being discussed as going as far east as Gilbert Rd? It'll be nice having it go to Mesa Dr, but a bit further East to pick up more commuters would be nice.

[bwonger06]

I'm a bit confused that they're only talking about extending the LRT as far East as Mesa Drive. Wasn't it just a while ago that the next leg in Mesa was being discussed as going as far east as Gilbert Rd? It'll be nice having it go to Mesa Dr, but a bit further East to pick up more commuters would be nice.

I think Mesa can be really great if it can capitalize on its downtown. Although it is not Mill, it has the shell of what a great downtown needs... mainly walkability and great building interaction. I would be interested to see the direction they take downtown in the next decade... will the Mormon population/Mill ave prevent a night life area to ever get off the ground (I admit my ignorance when it comes to dining and entertainment in Mesa besides the art center).

[Buckeye Native 001]

Mesa needs to stop looking over its shoulder at what Tempe's doing (or did...) with Mill Avenue and recognize that in order to have a functioning downtown, they basically have to start from ground zero. What little there is of "Downtown Mesa" is nice, but there's really nothing besides the Art Center and concerts at the Mesa Amphitheater to bring people there and have them stay for any significant length of time.

Light rail would certainly help, but that's obviously not the be all/end all for Downtown Mesa, and I hope the city's not stupid enough to think it will be the only solution.

And from an even more cynical perspective, at least 60% of Mesa's residents need to die or move elsewhere for anything worthwhile to get done. The biggest hurdle for any urban development to take place in Mesa is its own citizens.

[HooverDam]

I think they key to Downtown Mesas future is the string of empty lots on the SE Corner of Mesa Dr and University. What will they build there? For a while it was the potential new Cubs stadium, now there's been talk of a Medical campus (whatever that entails). I think a Medical campus would be a big mistake, thats a pretty non urban use and won't help gentrify the downtown much.

I've said to the Mayor of Mesa, their old Downtown planner, on this board, etc that what they need there is a college. BYU has two large branch campuses, one in Idaho and another in Hawai'i, Mesa ought to try to partner with them to bring one their. Capitalize on your status as the Mormon capitol of Arizona, leverage the big temple you have there.

A BYU college there would likely give Mesa what people like us want (young people walking and thus urbanity to serve them) without the normal headaches of wild students and debauchery, keeping the elderly Mesa NIMBYs happy.

[exit2lef]

I'm a bit confused that they're only talking about extending the LRT as far East as Mesa Drive. Wasn't it just a while ago that the next leg in Mesa was being discussed as going as far east as Gilbert Rd? It'll be nice having it go to Mesa Dr, but a bit further East to pick up more commuters would be nice.

The Mesa City Council voted to extend light rail all the way to Gilbert Road eventually, but no funding source has been identified for the additional two miles between there and Mesa Drive. As a result, the first phase of the Central Mesa extension is going forward with federal help. A second phase may follow later.

Regarding the future of Downtown Mesa, hasn't the Nile Theater reopened? Beyond that, I don't see Mesa ever as being a big place for nightlife due to all the demographic factors mentioned in other posts. That's not to say the Downtown doesn't have appeal, though. We take our kids there a lot because Downtown Mesa is home to two really good museums: Arizona Museum of Natural History and the Arizona Museum for Youth. Between museums visits, we usually have lunch one of several good restaurants on Main, even if most close by 8 PM. It may be that Downtown Mesa never catches up to Tempe or Scottsdale in terms of nightlife but becomes even more of a center for family-oriented daytime activities that can be reached via light rail. Not every urban destination has to have the same character and appeal to the same crowd.

[Leo the Dog]

Downtown Mesa shouldn't even try to compete with Tempe or Scottsdale nightlife. Let's be honest, it'll never reach their status.

They could create a family friendly urban-pedestrian zone full of shops, restaurants targeted to that demographic, rather than an urban nightlife with bars and clubs.

Or if Mesa wanted to get really crazy, they could try to attract employers to their DT instead of having everyone drive into Tempe, Phoenix or Gateway. Mesa has great freeway infrastructure, close to sky harbor and with LRT headed towards their DT, it could, in theory, compete with DT Phx someday. It could become DT East Valley, home to 1 - 1.5 million residents.

[Buckeye Native 001]

My dad works for the City of Mesa and has mentioned that the city likes to think of itself as the equivalent of Long Beach to Phoenix's Los Angeles, which is quaint, because Mesa is nowhere close to the kind of development and character seen in Long Beach, a city with a great downtown (one of the best in Southern California) and well-preserved historical neighborhoods.

[Phxguy]

I like Mesa and all BUT IT'S JUST TOO SUBURBAN! I really do enjoy downtown Mesa, but being in east Mesa I can hardy go there to support it. I live about a 25 minute drive from the Main/Sycamore station. I hope that the line will be extendedmeven further than Gilbert so that when I move to downtown Phoenix a trip back to Mesa to visit my family will only be a short cab ride from the station.

[HooverDam]

Oh I agree Mesa shouldn't try to throw its hat too much into trying to compete nightlife wise, they'll never be able to compete on those grounds. If they could become a quality urban area for families, that would be excellent. Either way though I still think attracting a college to or near their Downtown would be excellent.

[exit2lef]

My dad works for the City of Mesa and has mentioned that the city likes to think of itself as the equivalent of Long Beach to Phoenix's Los Angeles, which is quaint, because Mesa is nowhere close to the kind of development and character seen in Long Beach, a city with a great downtown (one of the best in Southern California) and well-preserved historical neighborhoods.

I agree that it's a stretch to compare Mesa in its current state to Long Beach, but Long Beach is a good model for Mesa to follow. Downtown Long Beach was pretty scary a few decades ago, but the City really turned itself around, and the Blue Line linking the downtowns of Long Beach and Los Angeles might have had something to do with that.

[N830MH]

Hi All,

I did not have a chance to read new forums yet. So I heard the news is going on from Metro light rail will be delayed constructions in Mesa extensions & Tempe streetcars when they are running out the money.

http://www.azcentral.com/community/ahwatukee/articles/2011/01/27/20110127phoenix-transportation-projects-in-jeopardy-from-government.html#comments

They are learning makes gravely mistaken and they will have another chance to starts constructions the light rail extension sometimes in 2013-2016.

http://www.azcentral.com/business/abg/articles/2011/01/27/20110127abg-mr-railplan0127.html

Mesa officials are meticulously planning rail stations along the 3.1-mile extension through downtown Mesa that is expected to open in 2016, hoping to learn from mistakes and maximize the economic impact. Ben Limmer, Metro's planning manager, said Metro has worked with a committee of Mesa residents and business residents for seven months designing the Alma School Road, Country Club Drive, Center Street and Mesa Drive stations.

[glynnjamin]

None of it is going to make much difference if the republicans in the house have any say. They are looking to cut all federal funding for rail projects. Without it, you'll be lucky to keep the light rail running much less build it out.

[Leo the Dog]

None of it is going to make much difference if the republicans in the house have any say. They are looking to cut all federal funding for rail projects. Without it, you'll be lucky to keep the light rail running much less build it out.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/02/08/biden.rail.network/index.html?hpt=T1

Interesting read, but with the changing political climate, highly unlikely for the unfunded routes.

[nickw252]

I was really excited about Biden's announcement but don't think much will come of it with the new Republicans in control.

Also, Phoenix isn't even planned to be included in the initial buildout. I would love to see a route that connects Phoenix, Las Vegas and Southern California.

Even if Phoenix were included I'm sure Brewer would pull some crap like the new Republican governors of Ohio and Wisconsin that said they didn't want high speed rail in their states. Why has infrastructure turned into such a partisan issue!?! Do these idiots in Washington just want to fight over everything? Do they wait to see what the other party says and then argue the opposite?

[Leo the Dog]

I was really excited about Biden's announcement but don't think much will come of it with the new Republicans in control.

Also, Phoenix isn't even planned to be included in the initial buildout. I would love to see a route that connects Phoenix, Las Vegas and Southern California.

Even if Phoenix were included I'm sure Brewer would pull some crap like the new Republican governors of Ohio and Wisconsin that said they didn't want high speed rail in their states. Why has infrastructure turned into such a partisan issue!?! Do these idiots in Washington just want to fight over everything? Do they wait to see what the other party says and then argue the opposite?

I'd love to see Phx and S. Cal connected via HSR, but given all of the hurdles and demographics, it is many decades away at the earliest.

Transportation infrastructure spending is probably one of the best ways for the gov't to spend our money. It is an investment in America.

I understand the need to cut federal spending (even Ben Bernanke is warning about the unsustainable federal debt), but cutting back on infrastructure improvements now, equates to costlier projects and repairs in the future.

[N830MH]

Hi All,

Great news for Metro Light Rail got the money from President Obama. So here the linked:

http://www.azcentral.com/community/mesa/articles/2011/02/15/20110215mesa-light-rail-cash-in-obama-budget.html

Supporters of Mesa's planned downtown light-rail extension got a major boost Monday when President Barack Obama included money for it in his budget proposal.

Federal Transit Administrator Peter Rogoff will announce today that the government will include $38 million for the 3-mile, four-station extension in the budget for the fiscal year starting Oct. 1. A budget summary posted online by the U.S. Department of Transportation lists the Mesa project.

"This is a great day, great news," Mesa Mayor Scott Smith said. "Once you get in the door, it's rare that they pull the plug."

[HooverDam]

Metro light rail meeting to discuss Phoenix extension

Proposal would extend line 11 miles to west

3 comments by Emily Gersema - Feb. 26, 2011 12:00 AM
The Arizona Republic

Metro light rail is inviting the public to a meeting Wednesday so residents can learn and comment on details of the agency's plan for light rail's west extension through west Phoenix.

The proposal under consideration by Metro's advisory board involves laying track on Jefferson Street from Central Avenue, past the Capitol and state buildings to Interstate 17, then north to Interstate 10, where it would then run west to 79th Avenue.

The proposed line would connect at Central Avenue and Jefferson Street to the existing 19-mile light-rail line that runs from 19th and Montebello avenues in Phoenix through Tempe and into west Mesa.


Under the Metro proposal, the 11-mile west extension could be running by 2021. It would cost about $1 billion to build.

Some residents in the St. Matthews neighborhood near the state Capitol grounds oppose the proposal, fearing the extension could affect the historic homes in the area. But Metro light-rail officials have presented their plan to some of the Phoenix village-planning committees that are comprised of community leaders from various neighborhoods within Phoenix, including Maryvale and Encanto.

The committees have supported the plan because it helps cash-strapped residents get to their jobs and could reduce traffic and pollution.

Some critics have argued Metro light rail should create a faster commuter line for the West Valley, instead of using the much slower light-rail trains.

Metro light rail has been studying the west Phoenix area for a possible extension since 2007.

The meeting is from 6 to 8 p.m. Wednesday at the Isaac Middle School cafeteria, 3402 W. McDowell Road.

The issue is expected to be discussed by Phoenix officials at a meeting the next day. City Council is expected to discuss and vote on the plan in April.

For more information, contact Terry Gruver at 480-664-2631, or e-mail tgruver@metro lightrail.org.



Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/community/phoenix/articles/2011/02/26/20110226phoenix-metro-light-rail-extension-meeting-for-west-valley.html#ixzz1F3AMcw9H

Someone please go to this meeting and tell them this moronic I-10 West via St Matthews district plan is horrifyingly stupid and not the will of the people.

[davidmperre@gmail.co]

Phoenix should expand its lightrail out to gilbert and Mesa!

[HooverDam]

Phoenix should expand its lightrail out to gilbert and Mesa!

There are already plans to extend it East into and through Downtown Mesa. MAG has plans for Commuter Rail which would serve Gilbert and the far Southeast Valley.

[JDRCRASH]

I'd love to see Phx and S. Cal connected via HSR, but given all of the hurdles and demographics, it is many decades away at the earliest.

I don't know if it's going to be decades. Even though there are obvious hurdles to building it, we have to remember that Phoenix is America's 5th largest city. Although, I don't think a route through Las Vegas is the best idea. A direct LA-Phoenix route via the Coachella Valley UP ROW (maybe with a breakoff onto the 10 freeway at Indio for an even more direct route rather than diving down to Yuma) would likely be the best alternative to flying between Phoenix and LA. Such a route would also likely serve the Palm Springs area and connect with the CHSR system.

We also have to keep in mind that LA-Phoenix is the nation's 10th busiest airline route, right after LA-Las Vegas:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World's_busiest_passenger_air_routes#United_States

Besides, if people remember the folly we've had to endure since these annoying clowns were elected, hopefully progress will come sooner rather than later.

[Evil Empire]

I don't know if it's going to be decades. Even though there are obvious hurdles to building it, we have to remember that Phoenix is America's 5th largest city. Although, I don't think a route through Las Vegas is the best idea. A direct LA-Phoenix route via the Coachella Valley UP ROW (maybe with a breakoff onto the 10 freeway at Indio for an even more direct route rather than diving down to Yuma) would likely be the best alternative to flying between Phoenix and LA. Such a route would also likely serve the Palm Springs area and connect with the CHSR system.

We also have to keep in mind that LA-Phoenix is the nation's 10th busiest airline route, right after LA-Las Vegas:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World's_busiest_passenger_air_routes#United_States

Besides, if people remember the folly we've had to endure since these annoying clowns were elected, hopefully progress will come sooner rather than later.

You also have to keep in mind that this is Arizona, the nation's shining beacon of backwardness at the moment and the flag bearer of the anti-progress movement...or at least 65% or so of the state is while the rest of us are left to languish.

[trigirdbers]

The Mesa City Council voted to extend light rail all the way to Gilbert Road eventually, but no funding source has been identified for the additional two miles between there and Mesa Drive. As a result, the first phase of the Central Mesa extension is going forward with federal help. A second phase may follow later.

Regarding the future of Downtown Mesa, hasn't the Nile Theater reopened? Beyond that, I don't see Mesa ever as being a big place for nightlife due to all the demographic factors mentioned in other posts. That's not to say the Downtown doesn't have appeal, though. We take our kids there a lot because Downtown Mesa is home to two really good museums: Arizona Museum of Natural History and the Arizona Museum for Youth. Between museums visits, we usually have lunch one of several good restaurants on Main, even if most close by 8 PM. It may be that Downtown Mesa never catches up to Tempe or Scottsdale in terms of nightlife but becomes even more of a center for family-oriented daytime activities that can be reached via light rail. Not every urban destination has to have the same character and appeal to the same crowd.

Yah, Scottsdale is really the elephant in the room, the transit network can't be comprehensive no matter how many additional lines are built unless it links to downtown Scottsdale. That line would spur 10X the development of any other alignment.

[Leo the Dog]

I don't know if it's going to be decades. Even though there are obvious hurdles to building it, we have to remember that Phoenix is America's 5th largest city. Although, I don't think a route through Las Vegas is the best idea. A direct LA-Phoenix route via the Coachella Valley UP ROW (maybe with a breakoff onto the 10 freeway at Indio for an even more direct route rather than diving down to Yuma) would likely be the best alternative to flying between Phoenix and LA. Such a route would also likely serve the Palm Springs area and connect with the CHSR system.

I still think that LA to Phx is decades away at best (assuming it ever gets built). It has taken decades alone for PHX to build LRT. I know LA's rail network has taken decades too.

There are numerous other routes that are higher priority and should be built before LA to Phx. Even if it is approved, everyone knows how projects get stalled, postponed, reduced, cutback etc...Look at CA's HSR that has been approved and partially funded...its facing major hurdles and bad press already ("the train to no-where"/Phase 1 through the Central Valley which serves nobody).

Politically, not gonna happen anytime soon due to the reality of our economic situation. Economically, the Federal budget problems will persist. Unfortunately, infrastructure improvement projects are an easy target for cutbacks. The US is projected to run a $1.6 trillion deficit this year alone. You know our debt is a problem when Bernanke starts to openly express concern about it...It would be almost impossible to sell HSR through the largely uninhabited desert to the American populace. While Phoenix proper is technically the 5th largest city (it encompasses 500 sq. miles that would be considered suburbs in other cities), the region is 13th.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of HSR and a large network should've been built years ago, but I'm also a realist and don't see this route happening for at least 25-50 years.

[HooverDam]

Sky Harbor awaits train to ease congestion

by Sean Holstege - Mar. 10, 2011 12:00 AM
The Arizona Republic

When Metro light rail opened three years ago, it didn't take riders to a key Valley destination: Phoenix Sky Harbor International Airport.

But there was a promise that soon, a separate people-mover would whisk riders from trains to terminals.

Now, construction of the airport's own rail system is becoming an imposing presence.


And the ride will become reality in early 2013, when Sky Train, an automatic people-mover linking light rail's 44th Street station with Terminal 4, opens and replaces a shuttle-bus system.

The airport rail system was never designed solely as a link to light rail, but chiefly to alleviate traffic congestion at Sky Harbor and deliver travelers to the terminals more quickly.

According to airport projections, only about 1,300, or 10 percent, of the 13,000 daily Sky Train riders will transfer to and from light rail, including tourists and conventioneers, when the system opens. Last year, around 800 riders a day transferred to the free shuttle buses.

Most Sky Train riders will be airport employees who park at a new lot at the 44th Street station or the airport's east economy parking lot, and it's assumed that the role of light rail as a link to Sky Harbor for Valley residents will be fairly limited.

But for those who will use Sky Train, its big selling point will be reliability, predictability and convenience.

Its driverless train cars, which travel on rubber tires along a guide track, will stop at the 44th Street rail and bus station, the east economy lot and Terminal 4. Because it traverses an elevated track, Sky Train will make the full 1.7-mile trip in five minutes, guaranteed.

At the 44th Street station, an escalator will lead to a sleek, air-conditioned overpass, moving walkways and another escalator to the Sky Train.

Transit wins fans

On Wednesday, people traveling to Sky Harbor via light rail and shuttle bus were in favor of getting there by public transport.

Tempe retirees Ken and Martha Lynch took a dry run for a trip to Hawaii at the end of the month after discovering the airport shuttle bus when they took light rail to downtown Phoenix recently.

"This is great," said Ken Lynch, 71. "Normally, we would get a friend to drive us or take an airport shuttle. This works for us because of the cost and the convenience."

The Lynches started out by walking a block from their house and boarding a free city Mars circulator bus. They then paid the light-rail fare of $1.75, waited two minutes on the platform and 10 minutes later were boarding the shuttle for the airport. They arrived at Terminal 4 two hours ahead of their flight's departure time.

A light-rail trip by a reporter from a downtown Phoenix hotel took 50 minutes, curb to curb.

At 7:45 a.m., it took five minutes to walk to the Third Street and Jefferson Street station. The train came nine minutes later. One passenger had travel bags: a Los Angeles woman returning from a trip to Phoenix.

By 8:15 a.m., light rail arrived at the 44th Street station. After crossing busy Washington Street, the shuttle arrived five minutes later. A dozen people boarded, and three put luggage on the storage rack. The bus reached the southside curb of Terminal 4 at 8:35 a.m.

The trip from the airport can be confusing for first-time travelers. That was true for Kendall Saltzer, 23, who had just arrived from Los Angeles to visit Arizona State University's downtown campus.

When he arrived at Sky Harbor, he had to ask the information desk where to go, because at the bottom of the escalator there are no clear signs for the shuttle buses to the light-rail station.

"In LA, a lot of people think transit is inefficient, but that's a mistake. You save money and it really isn't that bad," Saltzer said, nearing the light-rail station after 10 minutes. "For me, this feels pretty convenient."

After 25 more minutes, Saltzer was across the street from his appointment.

Passenger services

Sky Harbor is negotiating with major airlines about providing check-in and boarding-pass services at the 44th Street transfer station, said Jay DeWitt, project manager at the Phoenix Aviation Department that operates the airport.

The airport wants to have remote bag-check and boarding-pass kiosks at the station so travelers can go straight through to their gates when they board Sky Train, DeWitt said.

While travelers like the Lynches will benefit from the new system, they are not the kind of people that Sky Harbor is building the people-mover for.

"The real reason we are building this isn't solely for it to be convenient for light rail. The real reason is Sky Harbor Boulevard doesn't serve the airport into the future," DeWitt said. "This is a solution to a traffic problem we have today that gets worse in the future."

Consultants in 2009 concluded that within six years without Sky Train, clots of traffic will stretch through the airport, along Sky Harbor Boulevard, from 16th to 44th streets. With Sky Train, instead of driving to or from terminals, employees will park at the 44th Street station, hundreds of out-of-town visitors and Valley residents will ride it daily to light rail, and some parking-lot shuttle buses will be eliminated.

When the Sky Train opens in two years, the 44th Street station will also feature a so-called cellphone parking lot for people picking up family and friends, and a drop-off for commercial vehicles.

"This is one of a kind in the United States. It's the new front door to the airport," DeWitt said.

Other U.S. airports have reached similar conclusions about their internal traffic-flow problems, and several now feature automated people-movers. At least 13 other airports have built or planned rail connections, according to a Metro. Phoenix had considered a direct light-rail line to Sky Harbor, but city planners abandoned the idea because of the high cost of tunneling and because additional stops at the terminals and car lots would slow light-rail service.

The first phase of Sky Train is costing taxpayers $640 million. Ultimately, pending funding, a $1.5 billion system linking the entire airport is envisioned.

Ridership forecast

It's an open question how many air travelers like the Lynches will be lured to Sky Train, but DeWitt said he's confident in the early estimates.

"I think they will exceed expectations," said Friends of Transit Executive Director and light-rail promoter David Schwartz. "People fundamentally and intuitively love the idea of connecting the airport and light rail."

But he cautions that transit boosters oversell the benefits of new systems.

Last year, about 1,500 boarded and alighted daily from Metro light-rail trains at 44th Street, making it the ninth-busiest station. Half of them went somewhere other than the airport.

Metro isn't sure how passengers will take to the new connection. But it plans to promote the convenience of its link to the airport train.

"We have to market ourselves as a product," Metro CEO Steve Banta said. "It's a new product. It's a quick and convenient connection."



Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/community/phoenix/articles/2011/03/10/20110310phoenix-sky-harbor-new-train-system.html#ixzz1GB2pHyVZ

Not a lot of new info in this article, but its nice to hear checking in at the station might be an option, that would really make things convenient.

[Don B.]

^ The best part of that article was watching our very own Sean here wrestle intellectually with the knuckle-dragging morons that predominate the user comment sections at azcentral. You know what they say about wrestling with pigs in shit. :D

--don

[glynnjamin]

You mean you guys arent fans of ToddStallion on AZCentral? But his arguments are so solid....

way to go sean

[combusean]

^ The best part of that article was watching our very own Sean here wrestle intellectually with the knuckle-dragging morons that predominate the user comment sections at azcentral. You know what they say about wrestling with pigs in shit. :D

--don

I follow the shrinking liberal status quo in Phoenix, and for some reason I have a positive comment rating at 66%. I don't get it.

[Vicelord John]

Sean getting his blood pressure up over bullshit. Lol

[Buckeye Native 001]

You mean you guys arent fans of ToddStallion on AZCentral? But his arguments are so solid....

way to go sean

I'm a huge fan of LotusTom, personally.

[Tempe_Duck]

You mean you guys arent fans of ToddStallion on AZCentral? But his arguments are so solid....

way to go sean

That guy must not have a job. He comments on EVERY article on the site.

[Buckeye Native 001]

I get seizures staring at his avatars.

[Evil Empire]

^ Finally someone else comments on those idiots. Amongst the thousands of mind-numbing comments, the ones talking about transportation stand out.

I remember reading one of those idiots saying that they wanted the light right route to stay how it is and not expand because, as they put it, the line rolls through the Mexican ghetto on 19th Avenue, the run-down central part of the city, and the "hippie leftist liberal" area of Tempe near ASU. And if it did expand, then the train would bring in the "trash" from the original line to their neighborhoods.

Jesus fucking Christ.

[dtnphx]

^ Finally someone else comments on those idiots. Amongst the thousands of mind-numbing comments, the ones talking about transportation stand out.

I remember reading one of those idiots saying that they wanted the light right route to stay how it is and not expand because, as they put it, the line rolls through the Mexican ghetto on 19th Avenue, the run-down central part of the city, and the "hippie leftist liberal" area of Tempe near ASU. And if it did expand, then the train would bring in the "trash" from the original line to their neighborhoods.

Jesus fucking Christ.

Hilarious!

[hrivas]

i thought this was the best comment

"Readers aren't responsible for researching and fact checking everything the reporters write before commenting on their stories."

[plinko]

A light-rail trip by a reporter from a downtown Phoenix hotel took 50 minutes, curb to curb.

Is anyone else extremely bothered by this simple and yet so telling statement? 50 minutes? To get 5 miles to T4?

Sorry, but if I'm a business traveller staying downtown I'm paying the $12 for a <15 minute cab ride.

[HX_Guy]

Is anyone else extremely bothered by this simple and yet so telling statement? 50 minutes? To get 5 miles to T4?

Sorry, but if I'm a business traveller staying downtown I'm paying the $12 for a <15 minute cab ride.

Yea I noticed that too and though "Seriously?!" 50 minutes? I can make it to the airport from my house to the airport, 30 miles away, in around 40 minutes.

[Vicelord John]

^ Finally someone else comments on those idiots. Amongst the thousands of mind-numbing comments, the ones talking about transportation stand out.

I remember reading one of those idiots saying that they wanted the light right route to stay how it is and not expand because, as they put it, the line rolls through the Mexican ghetto on 19th Avenue, the run-down central part of the city, and the "hippie leftist liberal" area of Tempe near ASU. And if it did expand, then the train would bring in the "trash" from the original line to their neighborhoods.

Jesus fucking Christ.

thing is it isn't worth getting worked up over these people. They are idiots and that will never change no matter what you do or say. You'll only get over-aggravated.

[Vicelord John]

Is anyone else extremely bothered by this simple and yet so telling statement? 50 minutes? To get 5 miles to T4?

Sorry, but if I'm a business traveller staying downtown I'm paying the $12 for a <15 minute cab ride.

You know, it's probably not far off. I mean a 5 minute walk, 10 minutes to wait for the train, 13 mintues to ride to the apo, 2 minute walk to the bus, 5 mintues to wait for the bus, 10 minute bus ride to the terminal.... There's 46 minutes right there. I believe it.

If you drove yourself, you'd have to factor in parking and shuttle time. Taxi FTW.

[Leo the Dog]

Is anyone else extremely bothered by this simple and yet so telling statement? 50 minutes? To get 5 miles to T4?

Sorry, but if I'm a business traveller staying downtown I'm paying the $12 for a <15 minute cab ride.

Sad thing is, its accurate reporting.

Time is money. Most people will pay for a taxi to the airport. They will then expense it back to their company.

ExecuCar from DT to airport is approximately $25, depending on location. Metered taxi realistically is around $15-$18. If you split the ride, one is paying $8-$10 a piece. Well worth it.

[exit2lef]

Is anyone else extremely bothered by this simple and yet so telling statement? 50 minutes? To get 5 miles to T4?

Sorry, but if I'm a business traveller staying downtown I'm paying the $12 for a <15 minute cab ride.

Nevertheless, it's estimated almost 1000 people everyday use the existing bus connection to light rail at 44th St. Many more will do the same when the SkyTrain makes the transfer quicker and easier. I don't like taxis much and often use public transit when I travel, even though my employer will reimburse for cabs. Plus, many convention attendees travel on tight per-diem budgets and therefore appreciate a transit option. There's no question that a cab is quicker, but many travelers prefer rail to the Airport.

[plinko]

^I don't question the need for the Skytrain. Not at all. I do question its location and routing. When they build the west leg it needs to extend the extra 2.5 miles from the rental car center to some future downtown rail hub. Especially when (it has to happen at some point) a new west terminal is built at the airport. The notion of going from T2 all the way out to 44th and then back on the LRT is just bad planning, plain and simple. Travelling to the East Valley though? Makes total sense.

Even if the Skytrain extended to Buckeye and Central and hooked up with a N/S LRT line I'd be happy.

[KingLouieLouie76]

Let's see if this works:

http://www.azcentral.com/video/845808897001

[HooverDam]

Good article on Blooming Rock today about a possible road diet/bike improvements in Uptown:

http://bloomingrock.com/?p=2156

In the comments I asked about a HAWK signal being added to Central/Colter and it sounds like a good possibility, so thats nice.

[Vicelord John]

That's funny. One of my favorite rides is all the way to the top of central. There is no point on that ride that I feel the least bit uneasy, except for the strech between Camelback and Bethany, especially just south of Bethany where the right lane becomes a right turn only lane. Lots of merging right there. Doesn't help that the pavement on that mile is pretty shoddy.

[nickw252]

I would love to see rail between Tucson and Phoenix. The drive is miserable, especially on a Friday at rush hour.

If this happened I have a feeling I'd be visiting my family in Tucson a lot more.

It would also be great if we got Amtrak back into Phoenix on a daily basis at Union Station.

[glynnjamin]

I would love to see rail between Tucson and Phoenix. The drive is miserable, especially on a Friday at rush hour.

If this happened I have a feeling I'd be visiting my family in Tucson a lot more.

It would also be great if we got Amtrak back into Phoenix on a daily basis at Central Station.

How do you propose we run heavy rail to Central Station? That would be bonkers. Union Station is fine & in desperate need of a renovation. It could be amazing!

[nickw252]

How do you propose we run heavy rail to Central Station? That would be bonkers. Union Station is fine & in desperate need of a renovation. It could be amazing!

I meant Union Station, as far as I know Amtrak has never gone to Central Station and it would therefore be hard for it to come back to Central Station.

What I was getting at was that if Union Station is renovated for use with a line between Phoenix and Tucson it would be easier to get Amtrak back. Didn't it leave in the first place because of the condition of Union Station and the tracks?

[dtnphx]

Speaking of Union Station, trains and high speed rail....


Supporters celebrate board’s approval of passenger rail
Story by Griselda Nevarez, Cronkite News Service

A statewide rail plan that would start by linking Tucson and Phoenix is a step toward giving Arizona residents a transportation option that would relieve traffic congestion and improve air quality, an interest group contends.

“We’ve seen that our roads are congested, our air is polluted and people are spending endless amounts of time in traffic,” said Serena Unrein, a public interest advocate for the Arizona Public Interest Research Group.

The group held a news conference Monday at an unused passenger railroad station in downtown Phoenix to celebrate a recent vote by the State Transportation Board to approve the statewide rail plan.

The plan outlines potential rail projects that would expand passenger and freight rail across Arizona and make the state eligible to compete for federal funds.

One component is a three-year study looking into the possibility of creating a rail route that would link Tucson and Phoenix. It eventually would expand to include Prescott and Flagstaff in the north and Sierra Vista and Douglas in the south, Unrein said.

She said an estimated 11,400 vehicles make the trip daily between Phoenix and Tucson and said that number is expected to triple by 2050.

Vincent Lopez, a spokesman for the Maricopa County Department of Public Health, said during the news conference that he supports the passenger rail because it would improve public health.

“It’ll help combat health issues and respiratory problems that are a result of the pollution that comes from car transportation in the Valley,” he said.

Jade Meskill, co-founder of Gangplank, a Chandler-based company that helps entrepreneurs develop ideas using technology, is one of more than 70 business leaders who endorsed the rail plan with Unrein’s group. He said passenger rail would help with the commute between Chandler and Tucson.

“The drive on the I-10 is a long, grueling drive with all the trucks and the slow traffic,” he said. “In order to increase the opportunity for collaboration with our members in Chandler as well as in Tucson, the rail would be a really great option for us.”

Eric Emmert, spokesman for the East Valley Chambers of Commerce Alliance, said businesses would benefit from the construction of the rail.

“Businesses will gravitate toward station locations once the route is determined, and we’ll see development around those areas,” he said.

In a telephone interview, Laura Douglas, a spokeswoman for the Arizona Department of Transportation, said approval of the statewide plan allows Arizona to begin outlining rail development projects that will provide additional transportation options.

“This is a plan that looks out several years into the future to determine what kind of transportation and what kind of infrastructure we need in Arizona 25 years from now,” she said in a telephone interview.

The task includes conducting studies to determine the best rail routes and the impact the construction might have on the environment.

“There’s a lot that needs to take place before the shovel hits the dirt, but we are certainly glad to be part of a discussion when it comes to rail,” she said.

Julie Engel, president and CEO of the Greater Yuma Economic Development Corporation, said she drives to Phoenix at least once a week and would like to see the passenger rail extended to Yuma.

“It would connect us with major metropolitan areas through an alternative mode of transportation that is a little bit greener than individual vehicles and possibly more efficient,” she said.

[Leo the Dog]

I fear that AZ will half-ass it and just build slow standard rail lines that will share with freight instead of dedicated HSR.

[electricron]

I fear that AZ will half-ass it and just build slow standard rail lines that will share with freight instead of dedicated HSR.

Since the rail corridor in question is owned by the Union Pacific, you'll be 100% correct with your fears. The only way to build HSR will be to build an entirely brand new corridor, parallel to the existing UP rail corridor, or parallel to I-10.

Which, of course, will double or triple, possibly lots more, the capital costs to start the new rail service.

How far apart are downtown Phoenix and Tuscon? Per Yahoo Maps, 114 miles.
A train averaging 60 mph can travel that far in less than 2 hours. Why would 220 mph trains be needed?

[HX_Guy]

How far apart are downtown Phoenix and Tuscon? Per Yahoo Maps, 114 miles.
A train averaging 60 mph can travel that far in less than 2 hours. Why would 220 mph trains be needed?

Because if you could do it by car in the same amount of time, what's the incentive to pay more to travel by train?

[westbev93]

You are assuming that time and cost are the only factors when selecting modes of travel. I had a car at UofA, but I still took the shuttle bus up to visit friends and family. I could study/sleep/be hungover on a shuttle in a way I couldn't while driving.

Likewise, how much more is it by train than my tank of gas to go to Tucson and back? $100 or $10? If the difference is low, then I may value the fact that the train is safer, the fact that I can sleep or read, or a number of other items over the margin of difference. Maybe I have a shitty old car, and the cost is more than just gas-it is the wear and tear on my car. Maybe I want to see friends or family and enjoy some drinks. Train allows me to do that whereas driving doesn't. Maybe I don't like driving in the wind and rain, which at certain times of the year, make that stretch of I-10 pretty precarious.

Would HSR be even more convenient in terms of speed? Sure. But a regular passenger rail would still be a viable option for many people.

[Don B.]

I get 20 miles per gallon in my 5 year old convertible. That's 200 miles round trip to drive to Tucson, which will use about 10 gallons of gas. At $4 per gallon, that's $40 just to drive down there, not counting wear and tear, the costs of parking tickets and speeding tickets (you can be cited for going 2 mph over the limit on I-10), the increase in your insurance rates, and God forbid, if you piss off the asshole DPS officer, the $543 fine for that, since Arizona is pretty much a police state now and we will let cops do whatever they want. There is no justice in the small justice courts that dot this state outside of Maricopa County.

The next time I drive out of Phoenix, it will be to leave the state. No more in-state vacations for me.

--don

[glynnjamin]

The train would totally be worth it if I could go down to Kontiki, get drunk, and come back to Phoenix in one night.

I used to date a girl in Tucson and would drive down to see her every weekend. I know that drive all too well. I driven it in a dozen different cars and ultimately, there is no way to make that drive enjoyable & safe at the same time. I've lost 3 different friends over the years to Mexican truckers and I spent years fighting the expansion of the NAFTA Trucking Zone limit north past Tucson. I dislike everything about I-10 through the reservations from Chandler to Marana and would GLADLY overpay in order to avoid that mess. I routinely take the Cascade train from Seattle to Portland ($40 each way). It takes almost the same amount of time to drive but there is Wifi, booze, and I can sleep.

The biggest problem I see with any sort of Amtrak/HSR is that Tucson's upcoming streetcar does not go enough places to make car-free navigation easy once you get there. I'm sure that would change once the train finally came though.

[azliam]

I get 20 miles per gallon in my 5 year old convertible. That's 200 miles round trip to drive to Tucson, which will use about 10 gallons of gas. At $4 per gallon, that's $40 just to drive down there, not counting wear and tear, the costs of parking tickets and speeding tickets (you can be cited for going 2 mph over the limit on I-10), the increase in your insurance rates, and God forbid, if you piss off the asshole DPS officer, the $543 fine for that, since Arizona is pretty much a police state now and we will let cops do whatever they want. There is no justice in the small justice courts that dot this state outside of Maricopa County.

The next time I drive out of Phoenix, it will be to leave the state. No more in-state vacations for me.

--don

Wow...I must be pretty lucky to have never gotten a ticket on I-10 when I usually drive at least 5 miles over the speed limit. I'm not quite sure why you'd be concerned about pissing off a DPS Officer (and why he'd be considered an asshole simply because he's just doing his job), but I've never attempted to piss off an officer, so I guess I'm oblivious to the repercussions.

[Buckeye Native 001]

They need to learn how to drive better, that's for damn sure. I almost t-boned a DPS Crown Vic that jutted out from behind the median on I-17 southbound near Sedona to catch a speeder last Thursday. Son of a bitch didn't bother to look for oncoming traffic before giving pursuit.

The only reason I raise the complaint is that I hold the Department of Public Safety's officers to higher standards than most other motorists, given their job description.

I have a lead foot anyway, and the more opportunities I have for someone else to drive (or conduct a train or whatever), the better. I'd rather pay a little extra for someone else to deal with the transportation headaches than have to deal with it myself.

[nickw252]

The biggest problem I see with any sort of Amtrak/HSR is that Tucson's upcoming streetcar does not go enough places to make car-free navigation easy once you get there. I'm sure that would change once the train finally came though.

IF this ever happens I'm sure Tucson's transit is better by that time. It could also become a good opportunity for Zip Cars to expand - think about someone like a lawyer/businessman who needs to go to Tucson for the day, he could work while on the train and then once in Tucson grab a Zip Car for the day.

I would use it to visit my family in Green Valley and I'm sure they would have no problems driving up to Tucson to get me.

[combusean]

Wow...I must be pretty lucky to have never gotten a ticket on I-10 when I usually drive at least 5 miles over the speed limit. I'm not quite sure why you'd be concerned about pissing off a DPS Officer (and why he'd be considered an asshole simply because he's just doing his job), but I've never attempted to piss off an officer, so I guess I'm oblivious to the repercussions.

The one time I've been pulled over by DPS was when I was doing 80 in a 65 deep in east Mesa. This old guy bangs on the passenger window, screams at me to get out, then for about five minutes starts screaming in my face demanding to know why I was going so fast and taunting me about going to jail.

I don't know why I didn't file a complaint. That guy was a total asshole. He only settled down because I had the patience and kindness of a fucking saint and he realized he didn't have anything on me. He attempted to justify it because, you know, of course 2 males driving fast MUST be up to no good.

That pigfucker. I will never let myself get trampled on again by them.

[azliam]

The one time I've been pulled over by DPS was when I was doing 80 in a 65 deep in east Mesa. This old guy bangs on the passenger window, screams at me to get out, then for about five minutes starts screaming in my face demanding to know why I was going so fast and taunting me about going to jail.

I don't know why I didn't file a complaint. That guy was a total asshole. He only settled down because I had the patience and kindness of a fucking saint and he realized he didn't have anything on me. He attempted to justify it because, you know, of course 2 males driving fast MUST be up to no good.

That pigfucker. I will never let myself get trampled on again by them.

Did you get a ticket?

[Vicelord John]

The only reason to go to Tucson is to visit God.

[HooverDam]

Does anyone with more technical knowledge of trains know what the average speed would be if they were just in the existing corridors? Earlier 60MPH was quoted, that seems woefully low. Sections of the I-10 are 75MPH if memory serves, which means people are going at least 80. Trying to convince them to go 20 miles per hour slower, plus having a few stops does seem like a tough sell even with the other benefits.

It seems to me the US is so car oriented, and sadly Arizona especially so, the train option needs to be clearly vastly superior across the board to convince people to take it. Sure all of us here would, but thats a self selected sample. I'd hope the train could average at least 90-100MPH to make it more competitive.

Also off topic but speaking of tickets....I got one at 3:20AM today here in Boston because I parked in front of a "handicapped ramp" in my neighborhood. Apparently any cut out in the sidewalk is a handicapped ramp, there's no signs, no yellow or red paint, and I've parked there a zillion times. Plus its a residential area, I've never even heard of handicapped ramps/amenities in a residential zone--- rggg.... there goes $100.

[westbev93]

I don't know anything about trains, but there are plenty of stretches on I-10 where you are going slower than 75 or 80. Out of Phoenix, traffic will be pretty heavy until you hit Maricopa Road so you probably aren't going really fast until out of the Phoenix metro area. Even then you have a lot of slow traffic until you pass the first rest stop while the traffic thins out and people get around trucks/old people. Shit slows down big time in Casa Grande around McCarthy Road as people start looking for their outlet mall exit. Traffic picks up again until Eloy because that corridor is notorious for DPS (especially under the overpasses in Eloy). So nobody is going faster that 75 there if they know any better. Also, you have a lot of trucks merging on and off I-10 to go to the Eloy truck stops. Traffic slows down around Picacho too because of the never ending construction there. Once you hit Marana, you are in Tucson traffic and slow down. So while you can go 80 for some stretches, it isn't like you are likely to go 80 from door to door. And none of the foregoing takes into account weather and accidents. On high wind and rain days, people slow down a lot. You probably should too unless you are very skilled at operating a car at 80mph in high wind and rain. Also, it is not unusual to get stuck on I-10 in the middle of nowhere because of a 10 car pileup with fatalities.

How many stops would you really need? Downtown Phoenix, one in the East Valley, one in Casa Grande, one in Marana, one in Tucson?

A mind should also be kept toward the future. There will not be any funds to widen I-10 any time soon. So its capacity is set for a long time. Meanwhile, AZ's population will grow, and particularly so between Phoenix and Tucson. As sprawl creeps along I-10, it becomes less of a high speed free-for-all, and more of an in-town highway. In the past 10 years the difference is stark. When I started at UofA in 1997, we could make the trip to Tempe in under an hour. We were exceeding 110mph, but there was hardly any traffic other than semis. Now, there is a surprising amount of cars and trucks at all times.

@vicelord--happiness is submission to God

[HooverDam]

How many stops would you really need? Downtown Phoenix, one in the East Valley, one in Casa Grande, one in Marana, one in Tucson?


Well if the trains, rails and corridors are just the same type as what MAG is using for their proposed Commuter Rail, I imagine there could be a decent number of stops.

Going from Phx> Tucson:

1. Union Station Downtown Phx
2. Sky Harbor Airport @ 44th St (multi modal hub connecting to LRT and SkyTrain)
3. Downtown Tempe
4. Mesa (somewhere around Center & Broadway)
5. Downtown Gilbert
6. ASU Poly/Phx-Mesa Gateway Airport (Pecos and Power Rd)
7. Queen Creek (Ocotillo & Rittenhouse)
8. Coolidge (or Eloy)
9. Marana/Oro Valley
10. Tucson

Though I suspect some of those East Valley stops could be skipped on a more express type route, though I'm not sure when would be best for that to run.

On the one hand I'd think during rush hour times, but on the other hand those East Valley cities would need the trains then too. Perhaps an express train could be more for weekend travelers? I dunno...

E: Also if you go to http://www.whatmovesyouarizona.gov you can take an ADOT survey regarding transportation choices in the upcoming years. Take it and try to give ADOT the word that we want a more diversified transit portfolio.

VVVVV We all want that but until the Federal Government rapidly changes its position on infrastructure spending, it won't happen. I'd love to see the Defense budget cut in half and all of that money put into infrastructure nation wide, but its just not going to happen. Even if the US was going to get TGV trains the connection from PHX to Tucson would hardly be at the top of the list for such a project, the NE Corridor would.

[Tico]

If they will ever construct a rail road between Phoenix and Tucson, they might as well consider what Euro countries do in same situations: TGV!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TGV

Those trains can speed up to 350mph, but usually travel around 170mph, which would make a trip from Phoenix to Tucson in about 40 minutes or less.

The US is way behind in terms of train transportation than Europe.

Just my 2 cents here.

[Leo the Dog]

I am a huge supporter of train travel (I used to depend on it in Boston as my only mode of travel). Unless its HSR, I think a Phoenix - Tucson rail link is worthless.

I have considered taking the train from SD to LA, but I realized that it is cheaper and faster to drive my car. The biggest problem with taking the train is once one gets to LA...then what? Now you gotta arrange for further transportation to reach your destination.

I'd like to see Phoenix work on their own extensive multi-modal transportation network of bus, street-car,LRT, commuter rail before a link to Tucson is built.

[nickw252]

The biggest problem with taking the train is once one gets to LA...then what? Now you gotta arrange for further transportation to reach your destination.

I'd like to see Phoenix work on their own extensive multi-modal transportation network of bus, street-car,LRT, commuter rail before a link to Tucson is built.

I understand what you're saying but I think that as Tucson's transit improves, and if services like Zip Cars are available then you don't have to worry about what to do when you get there.

[KingLouieLouie76]

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2011/03/27/20110327arizona-rail-network-plan-funding-absent.html

A state transportation panel has approved Arizona's first comprehensive rail plan, which is necessary to build a passenger rail network but doesn't address the question of how to pay for improvements.

The 139-page plan proposes building billions of dollars' worth of rail links and improvements to passenger and freight networks, though it identified no source of money and none of the listed projects has been studied in detail.

[HooverDam]

^Its mind blowing that we could theoretically get a Valley wide commuter rail network for less than the South Mountain freeway (1.5B vs 1.9B). Not that I'm against the S. Mountain freeway, I definitely think there needs to be a PHX bypass for freight to relieve congestion through the Central City but the rail network should be such a higher priority as it would serve so many more people and have a much higher impact.

Its nice to see MAG & ADOT at least looking like they're finally getting serious about rail.

[dtnphx]

^Its mind blowing that we could theoretically get a Valley wide commuter rail network for less than the South Mountain freeway (1.5B vs 1.9B). Not that I'm against the S. Mountain freeway, I definitely think there needs to be a PHX bypass for freight to relieve congestion through the Central City but the rail network should be such a higher priority as it would serve so many more people and have a much higher impact.

Its nice to see MAG & ADOT at least looking like they're finally getting serious about rail.

Totally agree. Commuter Rail should be a priority of the SM Frwy.

[glynnjamin]

it is unfortunate that no preparations have been made for connecting Union Station in Phx to the light rail. They seem to have completely written it off. Even the western alignment runs down Washington and avoid the station. With the completion of the new court tower, you ruin any chance that the LRT could continue south to Jackson via Central. At this point, the best option would be to run a streetcar from Central Station over to 2nd Ave, south to Monroe, west to Comerica Theatre, and then South down 4th Ave to Union Station. The streetcar would then go north up 3rd Ave to Monroe and then jump back on the originating track at Monroe. Here is a quick idea Link (http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&ll=33.448731,-112.075567&spn=0.009203,0.012467&t=h&z=16&msid=205809495550539128291.00049f8f11e0670597abd)

It would use the existing bus bays along the north side of Central station, cut through the MAG parking lot to 2nd and then proceed from there. This would provide a good boost to Comerica Theater (which is way to far for some people's taste from the existing LRT stop (especially if you are Westbound). It would also provide a better connector for the court houses/government buildings that make up that area. The maintenance yard could be easily placed in any of the vacant lots along jackson or the rail could continue down Jackson to the capitol (if the freeway LRT alignment goes through). Either way, with a streetcar sharing the road, this seems like the best route that will not impact traffic significantly.

[HooverDam]

^I think that sounds a bit overly complicated and costly.

Why not just run the LRT west on Jefferson* and have a stop at 4th Ave. Enclose 4th Ave between Jefferson and the Historic Union station and make it a new, larger indoor station/mall. You could even move the bus stops down to that area (thus opening up the current Central Station location up for office/tower development) along Madison and 4th Ave.

*which is my understanding of the plan anyhow, they don't want it on Washington b/c the catenary will obscure the nice historic view of the Copper Dome.

[Tempe_Duck]

Does anybody have access to the actual 139 page report?