Metro Phoenix Transit/Transportation Developments

[biggus diggus]

Well, that's a great reason to axe the light rail running down a freeway.

[CrestedSaguaro]

Well, that's a great reason to axe the light rail running down a freeway.

I agree. If Phoenix was smart, they would axe the I-10 extension and move it up to Thomas where it can better serve the area. I feel like the only reason why Phoenix wants it along I-10 is for visibility to show out of towners, "Look! We have light rail!".

[CrestedSaguaro]

Before I forget, took a pic of the Metrocenter station progress this morning.

https://i.imgur.com/iFUAd5W.png

[biggus diggus]

I agree. If Phoenix was smart, they would axe the I-10 extension and move it up to Thomas where it can better serve the area. I feel like the only reason why Phoenix wants it along I-10 is for visibility to show out of towners, "Look! We have light rail!".

I'm generally against public transportation that exists to serve the rich; I want to see something serving everyone. I-10 alignment helps people get to their 9-5 office jobs. Thomas alignment would help people grocery shop, get to their jobs at restaurants, visit their friends and family, go to doctor appointments.... I don't need to continue, right?

[combusean]

If I seem to remember correctly, the study is about BRT on Thomas as an adjunct to light rail service on I-10 which they're proceeding with.

The first glance is that they have the modes switched incorrectly, but there's something to be said about a relatively cheap freeway LRT corridor that won't require utility relocation rather than a disruptive and extensive Thomas Rd construction project.

[N830MH]

A Phoenix City Council subcommittee has revived the prospect of a west side light rail line. They want to look at a zone bounded by McDowell on the south, Camelback on the north, Central Ave on the east, and 91 Ave on the west. What's interesting is that this move no longer appears to be revival of the potential west Camelback line that was scuttled a few years ago. The sentiment appeared to be that since Camelback itself is the Phoenix/Glendale border west of 43rd Ave that would be difficult to build a line only with Phoenix funds and only in the Phoenix right of way on the boundary. Instead, a likely corridor would lie to the south. I keep hoping for Thomas Road to get light rail, although I always thought that should be in place of the I-10 west line, which still appears likely.

https://youtu.be/MLWYf9MqrWA?t=8475


Do you have proposed map for light rail to 91st Ave? I’ll believe it when I see it! Hope they approved it.

[exit2lef]

Do you have proposed map for light rail to 91st Ave? I’ll believe it when I see it! Hope they approved it.

No maps yet. At this point, there has just been a vote to study the possibility.

[Obadno]

I agree is this an alternative to I-10? they are only half a mile apart.

I wouldn't mind leaving the i-10 idea for potential commuter a la Chicago

[exit2lef]

Well, that's a great reason to axe the light rail running down a freeway.

I agree. If Phoenix was smart, they would axe the I-10 extension and move it up to Thomas where it can better serve the area. I feel like the only reason why Phoenix wants it along I-10 is for visibility to show out of towners, "Look! We have light rail!".

I'm generally against public transportation that exists to serve the rich; I want to see something serving everyone. I-10 alignment helps people get to their 9-5 office jobs. Thomas alignment would help people grocery shop, get to their jobs at restaurants, visit their friends and family, go to doctor appointments.... I don't need to continue, right?

Completely agree with all three quotes above.

If I seem to remember correctly, the study is about BRT on Thomas as an adjunct to light rail service on I-10 which they're proceeding with.

The first glance is that they have the modes switched incorrectly, but there's something to be said about a relatively cheap freeway LRT corridor that won't require utility relocation rather than a disruptive and extensive Thomas Rd construction project.

BRT makes the situation even more complicated. What we have now are three different studies:


A recently completed study that reaffirmed light rai as the recommended mode for the I-10 corridor with an added extension to a terminus at Desert Sky Mall (which just happens to be on Thomas Road)

A BRT study that was looking at Thomas and several other arterials as possible routes. While the city is proceeding with further analysis of a 35th Avenue BRT route, an east-west route recommendation has been put on hold.

This new vote to study the prospect of light rail on some of the same arterials already considered for BRT.



My hope is for a mode switch: BRT on I-10 and light rail on Thomas. I've been yammering about that for years. I'd be delighted but amazed if it actually happens.

[biggus diggus]

I agree is this an alternative to I-10? they are only half a mile apart.

I wouldn't mind leaving the i-10 idea for potential commuter a la Chicago

The only time I ever took the blue line past Bucktown was to get to ORD. Those trains were always empty unless it was rush hour. So wasteful.

[TJPHXskyscraperfan]

I agree. If Phoenix was smart, they would axe the I-10 extension and move it up to Thomas where it can better serve the area. I feel like the only reason why Phoenix wants it along I-10 is for visibility to show out of towners, "Look! We have light rail!".

Not at all, look at light rails across the country, urbanrail.net. Almost all of them have lines along freeways. We don’t have enough open spaces so it makes the most sense. We also need more overpasses, cities smaller than us like Charlotte and Portland have tons of over passes. More people would ride light rail if it was faster to get where you’re going. We probably have the longest rail system with no over passes.

[exit2lef]

Not at all, look at light rails across the country, urbanrail.net. Almost all of them have lines along freeways. We don’t have enough open spaces so it makes the most sense. We also need more overpasses, cities smaller than us like Charlotte and Portland have tons of over passes. More people would ride light rail if it was faster to get where you’re going. We probably have the longest rail system with no over passes.

While your points are valid, it's important to consider who would be most likely to use the I-10 line as currently proposed. The idea is to build light rail along that corridor with only a few stations spaced an average of two miles apart. Those stations would not be within walking distance of many businesses, schools, or residences because of their freeway location. My guess is that the majority of passengers on such a line would be suburban park-and-ride commuters from places beyond Phoenix city limits: Avondale, Litchfield Park, Buckeye, Tolleson, etc.

That would be fine if this were a commuter rail project with equitable financial contributions from throughout the region. It's not, though. It uses light rail vehicles, which are better suited to short trips with frequent stops, and it will be financed in large part by a transit tax paid only in Phoenix. If the I-10 project goes ahead as designed, it will basically be a regional rail line that looks like light rail with Phoenix subsidizing commuters from its own suburbs.

The alternative, a Thomas Road line, would indeed be slower and not have the desired overpasses. It would, however, do much a better job of connecting the Phoenix residents who would be financing the bulk of the project to their jobs and schools. Light rail shouldn't always be planned with the goal of attracting discretionary passengers from the suburbs. It's nice when that happens, but the higher priority should be to serve the people who live along its route and depend on it for their daily needs.

[DirectionNorth]

Not at all, look at light rails across the country, urbanrail.net. Almost all of them have lines along freeways. We don’t have enough open spaces so it makes the most sense. We also need more overpasses, cities smaller than us like Charlotte and Portland have tons of over passes. More people would ride light rail if it was faster to get where you’re going. We probably have the longest rail system with no over passes.

I've often been told to STFU, since I have a tendency to post in places I know nothing about. But I just have to respond to this.

If you look at LRTs along freeways, most systems have those. Sure. But are freeways the best place to put urban transit? I've believe the answer is "no," since freeways aren't really destinations for anyone.

A system isn't (or shouldn't, because sadly many systems do this) measured by its length/# of overpasses. A system can have 100 overpasses, and serve only 1000 people, but a system that runs without any overpasses can serve 10,000. Which one is more successful, and which one do you want to build?

I don't live in Phoenix, so I don't know whether there actually is demand along the I-10 corridor, but a quick Google Map check tells me that there probably is more demand on Thomas.

[N830MH]

The only time I ever took the blue line past Bucktown was to get to ORD. Those trains were always empty unless it was rush hour. So wasteful.

Actually, I rode on blue line from ORD to Clark/Lake station. It’s very easy ride. I knows where it is. I have meet my brother. I have be there for a few days. I am very good transportation. I went on the website. The days before I fly out.

[exit2lef]

I've often been told to STFU, since I have a tendency to post in places I know nothing about. But I just have to respond to this.

If you look at LRTs along freeways, most systems have those. Sure. But are freeways the best place to put urban transit? I've believe the answer is "no," since freeways aren't really destinations for anyone.

A system isn't (or shouldn't, because sadly many systems do this) measured by its length/# of overpasses. A system can have 100 overpasses, and serve only 1000 people, but a system that runs without any overpasses can serve 10,000. Which one is more successful, and which one do you want to build?

I don't live in Phoenix, so I don't know whether there actually is demand along the I-10 corridor, but a quick Google Map check tells me that there probably is more demand on Thomas.

Not bad for a non-Phoenician's perspective. I think you've summarized some essential arguments against the proposed I-10 alignment.

[phoenixwillrise]

Not bad for a non-Phoenician's perspective. I think you've summarized some essential arguments against the proposed I-10 alignment.
Elevated vs non elevated on a surface street like Thomas Rd. In Seattle they are doing elevated in the Bellevue area which though not the greatest look will be a much more efficient system where you will be able to get from point A to point Z without spending half your day on the Light Rail. Phoenix has made a mistake by at not least going over the top of at least some intersections to make the system much more rapid.

[exit2lef]

Elevated vs non elevated on a surface street like Thomas Rd. In Seattle they are doing elevated in the Bellevue area which though not the greatest look will be a much more efficient system where you will be able to get from point A to point Z without spending half your day on the Light Rail. Phoenix has made a mistake by at not least going over the top of at least some intersections to make the system much more rapid.

That's a good point, but also a separate issue of how something is built rather than where it is built. An all-elevated rail transit system for Phoenix was proposed back in 1989 and failed miserably at the polls. Ironically, some of the people who complain most vocally about light rail being too slow when it runs in the street are the same people who complain it costs too much. Expect costs per miles to be several times greater for elevated over surface level.

[phoenixwillrise]

That's a good point, but also a separate issue of how something is built rather than where it is built. An all-elevated rail transit system for Phoenix was proposed back in 1989 and failed miserably at the polls. Ironically, some of the people who complain most vocally about light rail being too slow when it runs in the street are the same people who complain it costs too much. Expect costs per miles to be several times greater for elevated over surface level.
I would argue that it most definitely relates to where it is built as with an elevated train on Thomas at least one that goes over all major intersections and lessor ones are blocked because you are combining the best reason to build it on I-10, (no street lights to deal with),with the best reason to build it on Thomas Rd.,(easy access for more riders without having to drive to a park and ride).

[exit2lef]

Elevated vs non elevated on a surface street like Thomas Rd. In Seattle they are doing elevated in the Bellevue area which though not the greatest look will be a much more efficient system where you will be able to get from point A to point Z without spending half your day on the Light Rail. Phoenix has made a mistake by at not least going over the top of at least some intersections to make the system much more rapid.

If light rail is ever built on Thomas Road, I expect the track would be elevated as it passes over the intersection with 27th Avenue due to the nearby freight racks. The bridge would be seen as a necessary safety measure to avoid the prospect of a freight vs. passenger collision between two trains. I doubt we'd see elevated track anywhere else, although I agree it might be nice.

[TJPHXskyscraperfan]

Being along I10, is basically going along McDowell which doesn’t make it much different than going down Thomas. And there are denser areas along I10 with apartment complexes actually and the warehouse areas to the south. People going on those real short trips to the grocery along Thomas, that’s what the bus is for or a bike. Along I10 will benefit people in west Phoenix along with the suburbs, going to work, events and so forth.

[biggus diggus]

"Along I10 will benefit people in west Phoenix along with the suburbs, going to work, events and so forth."

This is called commuter rail in most cities and is not the purpose of busses and light rail, in my opinion.

People going to events and getting from the suburbs to their jobs shouldn't be the main focus, here.

[CrestedSaguaro]

Not sure if anyone saw this:

https://www.phoenix.gov/newsroom/public-transit/2116

[admdavid]

This isn't exactly Metro Phoenix transportation news but I think it's huge nonetheless.

https://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2021/10/28/arizona-signs-446m-deal-i-17-north-of-phoenix.html?ana=TRUEANTHEMFB_PH&csrc=6398&utm_campaign=trueAnthem%3A%20Trending%20Content&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR2fL_QXrq-mYazpn5jgiaa3717ZBNMTBLaAC7nwHUWcG04hGEDCiXBcTrU

[Obadno]

Not sure if this was ever posted somebody on Reddit compiled all current transit proposals if they all get full buildout.

https://www.reddit.com/r/phoenix/comments/l29a12/map_of_phoenixs_current_transit_proposals/

Cant get the picture to work on here if anyone else can that would be nice.

[azsunsurfer]

Well that's not even all the proposals discussed at that infrastructure forum that AZBEX put on. The Valley Metro Rep said they are moving forward with the extension to ASU West and just started a study for the Fiesta Streetcar to connect to the Tempe streetcar in Mesa.

[xymox]

Not sure if this was ever posted somebody on Reddit compiled all current transit proposals if they all get full buildout.

https://www.reddit.com/r/phoenix/comments/l29a12/map_of_phoenixs_current_transit_proposals/

Cant get the picture to work on here if anyone else can that would be nice.

I dunno - call me skeptical but along the L303 is the "Loop 202 BRT"? There's no label for the Grand Ave red line (is that commuter rail?).

There's clearly large gaps missing here - like the whole NE valley needs to be part of a larger system like this to work.

[N830MH]

Not sure if this was ever posted somebody on Reddit compiled all current transit proposals if they all get full buildout.

https://www.reddit.com/r/phoenix/comments/l29a12/map_of_phoenixs_current_transit_proposals/

Cant get the picture to work on here if anyone else can that would be nice.

It’s very old news from the past. There is no new proposal for Fiesta Streetcar. I just don’t see anything.

[Obadno]

This forum has ben Soooooo slow so im posting an article about highway expansions:

https://azbigmedia.com/business/heres-how-freeways-put-arizona-on-the-road-to-success/

BUSINESS NEWS | 9 hours ago | KYLE BACKER
Ribbons of concrete and asphalt crisscross Arizona to form the freeways that connect the state’s residents to regional neighbors and the world at large. These corridors facilitate the flow of people and goods that are the hallmarks of daily life. Highway infrastructure is where the rubber meets the road for economic development.

“A well-planned transportation system, including freeways and highways as well as arterial streets, is key to mobility,” says Eric Anderson, executive director for the Maricopa Association of Governments (MAG). “An efficient transportation system drives down cost, either your personal cost in terms of commuting or the cost of shipping and receiving goods for the manufacturing process.”

Maricopa County has an impressive track record of investing in its roads. In 1985, voters approved Proposition 300, which was one of the first dedicated transportation taxes in the country. Funds from the initiative were responsible for the construction of the Loops 101 and 202.
. . .

[combusean]

This is the transit and transportation thread, so highway projects have always been fair game for discussion. I really liked this article, especially the new freight rail-serviced developments in the Red Bull/Ball complex.

I'm kind of starting to turn the page on SR-30, which I thought was kind of redundant but will definitely help the Phoenix to San Diego corridor and inject some money in those ratty/undeveloped areas by the riverbed.

[biggus diggus]

Reading that article reminded me of last week when I drove the 202 at about 3PM. They are going to have to make MAJOR changes there as there's a daily backup several miles long to get off at Van Buren heading northbound. Lots of trucks. I wonder what the answer will be since it's like that every single weekday.

[combusean]

Reading that article reminded me of last week when I drove the 202 at about 3PM. They are going to have to make MAJOR changes there as there's a daily backup several miles long to get off at Van Buren heading northbound. Lots of trucks. I wonder what the answer will be since it's like that every single weekday.

This means the 202 is doing what it's supposed to do: handle truck traffic.

I will forever despise ADOT for how the 202 cut that massive gash in South Mountain but the benefits of getting truck traffic from West Valley distribution center to the East Valley are almost on a similar level of importance.

Looks like the SR-30 will probably be the truck traffic resolution in any event.

[Obadno]

Behold! the Official route of I-11, the one good ting it does is help connect Casa Grande and Maricopa to the broader highway network.

http://origin.i11study.com/Arizona/

https://adot.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=0d91bf0138194ad09df43a0dcb53c141

[PHX06]

The proposed section between I-19 and I-8 is absurd. It largely parallels the existing I-10 corridor and disrupts miles of untouched desert near Avra Valley and Picacho Peak. I understand the need for an alternate route when there is a bad accident or other delay on I-10, but there has to be another way.

I would suggest widening I-10 into a New Jersey Turnpike-like configuration (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4277753,-74.4382292,3a,60y,212.68h,87.48t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sw57BNLI740UCVKrbOfVbhw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192), with truck/car lanes and exclusive car lanes, and when an incident occurs on one of the carriageways, simply close it and have traffic use the other one. This will utilize the existing right of way and will not create a redundant corridor that encourages sprawl and destroys thousands of acres of the Sonoran Desert.

[biggus diggus]

I'm sure the fine citizens of Tucson would be happy if a truck-route bypassed their town.

[Obadno]

So I posted below in the Tucson thread but it applies here.

With Amtrak likely adding the service to Phoenix, time to speculate on stations?

Will they attempt to refurbish the old station? Build a new one? how will it link into light rail if at all?

Amtrak got the money it wanted, and their proposal for the plan included amtrack up to phoenix and back down to Yuma.

They've already approved funds to rebuild the Yuma Amtrak station: https://azbex.com/yuma-gets-10-6m-grant-for-transportation-project/

Rendering:

https://azbex.com/newrelease/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/edit-1-678x381.png



I would say its going to happen.


Edit not sure why this shows a spur, everything Ive read and seen shows a line that loops up to Phoenix and back down to Yuma as it did back before 1974 or whatever. I think they should eliminate a Maricopa line, such a waste.

https://www.railwayage.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/Amtrak2.png

[ASU Diablo]

I posted a similar thread/question a couple of weeks back but no responses. But from what I vaguely remember, I think I posted an article where it had some quotes that City Council was looking at purchasing the old Union Station as it was up for sale.

I just checked again and listing appears to be off the market so who knows?

[TakeFive]

What is That I asked
Before I forget, took a pic of the Metrocenter station progress this morning.

https://i.imgur.com/iFUAd5W.png

Back in June as I started to consider leaving my 'stay safe at home' mode to do some rideshare, I ventured over to Metrocenter. I once picked up a nice young couple from Sky Harbor and they were headed to the DoubleTree. Uber maps were not the best and I went by the place twice (along Peoria) trying to figure out where I was supposed to go.

Fast forward and to get familiar with the areas I prefer to work as well as some that had given me trouble, I started getting out and just driving around.

I came to Metrocenter via Dunlap and as I came around the east side I noticed that bridge work and my 1st thought was "What in the world is that?" before the light went on and I realized it was for light rail. I did wondered about it being up in the air and having to climb up but whatever.

I also recall thinking the place was a total mess and wondering if anything would ever get done? The potential is ofc obvious.

[ASU Diablo]

I guess the 3rd Ave Cycle Track / Protected Bike Lane is “officially” open as of today.

One thing I was not aware of is a proposal for protected bike lanes on Fillmore from 7th St to Central. Of course, this would mean the removal of vehicular lanes. Hearing set for 12/14

[CrestedSaguaro]

I guess the 3rd Ave Cycle Track / Protected Bike Lane is “officially” open as of today.

One thing I was not aware of is a proposal for protected bike lanes on Fillmore from 7th Ave to Central. Of course, this would mean the removal of vehicular lanes. Hearing set for 12/14

Fillmore is only 1 lane each direction from 7th Ave to Central, but has on street parking on both sides. Do you mean removing the metered parking or did you mean 7th St?

[ASU Diablo]

Fillmore is only 1 lane each direction from 7th Ave to Central, but has on street parking on both sides. Do you mean removing the metered parking or did you mean 7th St?

Dammitt ur right. I meant 7th St :cheers:

https://www.phoenix.gov/streets/fillmore

[CrestedSaguaro]

Dammitt ur right. I meant 7th St :cheers:

https://www.phoenix.gov/streets/fillmore

I honestly would love to see this section whittled down in lanes. I drive it everyday and it's not near busy enough for 2 lanes per side...and with many ASU students crossing at 1st, 2nd and 3rd plus many riding on scooters and bikes along Fillmore, it makes sense to add the protected bike lanes for the safety of students.

[exit2lef]

I honestly would love to see this section whittled down in lanes. I drive it everyday and it's not near busy enough for 2 lanes per side...and with many ASU students crossing at 1st, 2nd and 3rd plus many riding on scooters and bikes along Fillmore, it makes sense to add the protected bike lanes for the safety of students.

It took the death of Hans Hughes on Fillmore to motivate the city to make this change, which should have occurred a decade ago. Still, I'm glad it's happening now.

[TakeFive]

On-demand transit service for students, residents to launch in south Chandler (https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/chandler/2021/12/04/chandler-launch-demand-transit-service-2022/8857635002/)
Dec 4, 2021 By Paulina Pineda - Arizona Republic
Chandler plans to launch a fleet of passenger vans that will operate across 18 square miles in south Chandler between Chandler Boulevard and Chandler Heights Road and Price Road and Arizona Avenue, with some exceptions.

The vans would provide rides for students who need transportation outside of the typical school bus hours or for students who go to school out of boundaries through open enrollment, Transportation Planning Supervisor Jason Crampton said.

There's also this shocking revelation

https://media4.giphy.com/media/3o6wrsr06rwTjMd8wE/giphy.gif?cid=790b761198f5f4a1319997d59ba83820986151022fdb3b36&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g


Report: 98 Percent Of U.S. Commuters Favor Public Transportation For Others (https://www.theonion.com/report-98-percent-of-u-s-commuters-favor-public-trans-1819565837)
11/29/00
WASHINGTON, DC–A study released Monday by the American Public Transportation Association reveals that 98 percent of Americans support the use of mass transit by others.

[DesertRay]

Report: 98 Percent Of U.S. Commuters Favor Public Transportation For Others (https://www.theonion.com/report-98-percent-of-u-s-commuters-favor-public-trans-1819565837)
11/29/00[/QUOTE]

Ha! Love The Onion.

[combusean]

The onion is great, but it's not on topic for this thread.

[TakeFive]

Good Grief; Forgive Me
The onion is great, but it's not on topic for this thread.

It must have been my onset dementia kicking up. For some crazy reason I thought this was the Transit and Transportation thread.

Or Perhaps

We have very different views of (metro) Phoenix? That's fair. When it comes to "Car Dependency" I would be inclined to put Phoenix near the top of the list. And, if you have a different opinion I would be happy to hear it.

Or Perhaps

You just got overly excited for the chance to play Mr. Grinch.

Tis the Season (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6bqbPdGOZk)

[N830MH]

Good morning everyone,

Tempe’s streetcar come to Mesa. Is that real?

Check out this article from azcentral:

If Tempe's streetcar comes to Mesa, federal infrastructure package is to thank, Valley Metro CEO says

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/mesa/2021/12/13/tempe-streetcar-mesa-leaders-eye-expansion-routes/6408367001/

Let the speculation begin!

[Obadno]

Good morning everyone,

Tempe’s streetcar come to Mesa. Is that real?

Check out this article from azcentral:

If Tempe's streetcar comes to Mesa, federal infrastructure package is to thank, Valley Metro CEO says

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/mesa/2021/12/13/tempe-streetcar-mesa-leaders-eye-expansion-routes/6408367001/

Let the speculation begin!

The original plan was to go all the way to Mesa Riverview

[TakeFive]

Transit Funding Summary Review

As regards the Bi-Partisan Infrastructure Bill

With respect to Amtrak

While there's a total of $66 billion broken into three buckets, I recall reading in July that this is not fully funded and will require additional Congressional funding in the future. Slate (https://slate.com/business/2021/07/amtrak-infrastructure-bill-northeast-corridor-biden-high-speed-rail.html) had one of the best breakdowns (at the time).

Bucket One

With a target date for completion in 2035, you can count on "Amtrak Joe's" $24 billion for the Northeast Corridor being (fully) funded. Per Slate:
The biggest-ticket item is, as it should be, money for the route that not only delivers the best service and takes in the most revenue but also has the most potential: the Northeast Corridor. The string of cities between Washington and Boston is the densest part of the country. It’s home to one in five U.S. jobs, and its economy would be the fifth largest in the world on its own.

Bucket Two

consists of $20 billion for "intercity service, safety grants, and grade crossing improvements." If you figure that many pieces of the existing system are being held together by "bailing wire" then it's easy to assume this bucket is also already funded.

Bucket Three

entitled simply "Grants" with $22 billion in designated funds is by deduction likely still unfunded.

Comment:

Much about the Amtrak portion of the Infrastructure Bill is ill-defined or frankly yet-to-be defined. Whether some expansion could occur out of Bucket Two, who knows?

With respect to Phoenix-Tucson expansion this feels like one of the better prospects - although this whole funding package does seem to have a NE density tilt.

[Obadno]

Transit Funding Summary Review

With respect to Phoenix-Tucson expansion this feels like one of the better prospects - although this whole funding package does seem to have a NE density tilt.

Lets be real, that's where the money is best spent. The Densities in most of the country are simply too low to make a good argument for lots of rail dollars.

I do agree though Amtrak pushed Phoenix-Tucson pretty heavily over the whole debate of the bill so it will likely get some money

[TakeFive]

Transit Funding Summary Review - Part Two

With respect to previous COVID-based funding
including earlier this year, this was intended to "keep the patient stable" through the end of 2022 awaiting post-COVID normalcy.

I'm not aware of Metro's specific budget and how they're faring as a result but generally speaking:

https://www.governing.com/now/what-does-history-teach-us-about-pandemics-and-transit-ridership

Across the United States, transit ridership isn’t even close to bouncing back to its pre-pandemic levels. Passenger numbers are rebounding from the 70-to-95 percent declines seen at the start of COVID-19, but they are far from normal.

It’s impossible to know when, or if, ridership will ever fully recover because there’s no comparable analog to this moment in America’s modern history.

“This is a deeper and stranger challenge than we’ve ever faced before,” said Beth Osborne, director of Transportation for America, in a 2020 interview.

With respect to the Bi-Partisan Infrastructure Bill

which included $39 billion for public transit, the FTA states: (https://www.transit.dot.gov/BIL)

The legislation will advance public transportation in America’s communities through four key priorities:

Safety: Enhancing state safety oversight programs by strengthening rail inspection practices to protect transit workers and riders from injuries and ensure safe access to transit.
Modernization: Reducing the state of good repair investment backlog by repairing and upgrading aging transit infrastructure and modernizing bus and rail fleets.
Climate: Replacing thousands of transit vehicles, including buses and ferries, with cleaner, greener vehicles.
Equity: Improving transit service for communities that have historically had more limited access to transit and provide for substantial upgrades to station accessibility.

It will be fun to see how METRO and the metro areas utilize their allocated funding. I suspect many agencies will focus on operating capital needs like replacement of existing buses etc. There will be incentives for purchasing electric buses.

[Warren Peace]

It will be fun to see how METRO and the metro areas utilize their allocated funding. I suspect many agencies will focus on operating capital needs like replacement of existing buses etc. There will be incentives for purchasing electric buses.
I could see this being an area for Waymo to eventually grow into. It seems like a fully autonomous variable route busing endeavor based on passenger pickup and drop off locations would be a game changer for municipalities. I could see where cities would supply and maintain bus stops, while Waymo provides the technology and maintenance for the transportation.

[TakeFive]

Excellent Insight
I could see this being an area for Waymo to eventually grow into. It seems like a fully autonomous variable route busing endeavor based on passenger pickup and drop off locations would be a game changer for municipalities. I could see where cities would supply and maintain bus stops, while Waymo provides the technology and maintenance for the transportation.

I'll be joining your party... "Coming Soon."

[CrestedSaguaro]

ABC15 article on the Tempe streetcar delays and possible streetcar extension into Mesa.

https://www.abc15.com/news/region-southeast-valley/tempe/covid-supply-issues-delaying-debut-of-tempe-streetcar

[combusean]

That article has some really wonky reporting. They finished the feasibility study this past summer, and only one route would extend into Mesa, the most viable one.

https://www.abc15.com/news/region-southeast-valley/tempe/covid-supply-issues-delaying-debut-of-tempe-streetcar

The prop 400 extension has that extension heading south on Dobson to Fiesta Mall, foolishly stopping short of going into Downtown Mesa.

https://www.ourmomentumplan.com/proposed-investment-plan

I am again going to lament the garbage amount of light rail proposed in the measure. Not even what was proposed the Valley would get out of the current proposition measure but those maps have of course been scrubbed from nearly everywhere. Even the millennials like me will be dying off by the time any of this happens, if ever.

[thespiandave]

I went for a long jog this morning and snapped some pictures along the way! Enjoy!
https://i.imgur.com/HxgtQMy.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/ZFyQC8X.jpeg

[SunDevil]

I could see this being an area for Waymo to eventually grow into. It seems like a fully autonomous variable route busing endeavor based on passenger pickup and drop off locations would be a game changer for municipalities. I could see where cities would supply and maintain bus stops, while Waymo provides the technology and maintenance for the transportation.

I would prefer that public transportation remain public. You think that Waymo would operate at a loss? :haha:

[Warren Peace]

I would prefer that public transportation remain public. You think that Waymo would operate at a loss? :haha:

There's no shortage of examples where publicly funded services are ultimately privatized. Why would you think businesses willingly engage in these partnerships at a loss (after all, you're the one choosing to phrase the question with that assumption in mind)? Why do you think municipalities embrace the benefit? If you need someone else to provide the answer it is that private businesses can often manage the operations more efficiently and at a lower cost than a government bureaucracy.

In the case of Waymo, there aren't many competitors pioneering the technology and utilization of fully autonomous vehicles. Once Waymo starts becoming more competitive with Uber and Lyft, wouldn't it be reasonable for them to explore other autonomous vehicle opportunities?

[muertecaza]

Small-ish project, but Mesa is underway filling in another gap in the canal-path network. It is the stretch of the South Canal roughly between Brown and McKellips roads, here (https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4445094,-111.8161137,15.79z):

The project is estimated to begin January 2022 and will be completed within six months.

The City of Mesa has contracted with Combs Construction to construct a 10 foot wide asphalt pathway along the South Canal from the Consolidated Canal (north of Brown Road) to McKellips Road. Improvements include LED lighting, a 4 foot decomposed granite equestrian trail and trail signage. Other improvements include pedestrian ADA ramps and signals at the intersections of the South Canal and Horne and at the South Canal and McKellips Road.
https://www.mesaaz.gov/business/engineering/projects?locale=en

[CrestedSaguaro]

I didn't know a study was being done on the possible removal of the reverse lanes on the 7's. The study found the reverse lanes are needed and it looks like improvements are on the horizon including removal of current static signage. I'm hope this means LED signs going up which I think would greatly improve flow and safety, but the article doesn't specifically mention LED signs.

https://ktar.com/story/4830195/study-finds-reverse-traffic-lanes-north-of-downtown-phoenix-are-essential/

[az_daniel]

The light rail bridge over the 17 is underway. They have been working on the adjacent elevated platform for a while now, but there are now two huge beams cantilevered over the highway. I would assume that the bridge structure is going to go up quick to avoid too many conflicts with the highway.

[Obadno]

I didn't know a study was being done on the possible removal of the reverse lanes on the 7's. The study found the reverse lanes are needed and it looks like improvements are on the horizon including removal of current static signage. I'm hope this means LED signs going up which I think would greatly improve flow and safety, but the article doesn't specifically mention LED signs.

https://ktar.com/story/4830195/study-finds-reverse-traffic-lanes-north-of-downtown-phoenix-are-essential/

I live on the 7's and I disagree that they are "needed" that just keeps them as unofficial highways

[CrestedSaguaro]

The light rail bridge over the 17 is underway. They have been working on the adjacent elevated platform for a while now, but there are now two huge beams cantilevered over the highway. I would assume that the bridge structure is going to go up quick to avoid too many conflicts with the highway.

I drove by on I-17 on the way home last night. The Southbound side was closed off and the beams were going up. I don't know how far they got. Were both sides worked on or just the Southbound side?

[PHX31]

I drove by on I-17 on the way home last night. The Southbound side was closed off and the beams were going up. I don't know how far they got. Were both sides worked on or just the Southbound side?

Pretty sure it's this weekend the I-17 will be completely closed for them to place girders.

[az_daniel]

Pretty sure it's this weekend the I-17 will be completely closed for them to place girders.

Yep, 17 is closed in both directions between Northern and Peoria this weekend. I haven't heard of any other upcoming closures planned, so there is a chance that by Monday morning we will have a bridge! :tup:

[CrestedSaguaro]

Phoenix gets grant for stations along 5-mile streetcar route in Mesa

By Anita Roman and Associated Press
Published January 24, 2022 9:12AMUpdated January 27, 2022 7:31AMTransportationAssociated Press

PHOENIX - The Phoenix Public Transit Department has received a $920,000 grant to manage the planning of 11 stations along a 5-mile streetcar route that would connect four activity centers in Mesa.

Full Article: https://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/phoenix-gets-grant-for-stations-along-5-mile-streetcar-route-in-mesa

[combusean]

PBJ is reporting that BNSF is scheduled to buy 3,500 acres at a cost of $49M from the State Land Department for a western US railroad hub and logistics park. The site surrounds 227th Ave and Cloud.

Surprise had planned for residential there, this completely upends that.

Full buildout is expected over a 10-year period.

https://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2022/01/25/bnsf-intermodal-surprise.html

This might be pretty big for Downtown and the rest of the Valley if BNSF consolidates its multiple yards there, which won't happen until 2025.

[N830MH]

Full Article: https://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/phoenix-gets-grant-for-stations-along-5-mile-streetcar-route-in-mesa

Thanks for sharing this. I appreciate that. I think it's great news! Hope they extended to Mesa from Tempe. To the Spring Training games or other activity. They will be much easier and they don't have take a car to the stadium anymore. Just leave a car at home.

[ASU Diablo]

PBJ is reporting that BNSF is scheduled to buy 3,500 acres at a cost of $49M from the State Land Department for a western US railroad hub and logistics park. The site surrounds 227th Ave and Cloud.

Surprise had planned for residential there, this completely upends that.

Full buildout is expected over a 10-year period.

https://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2022/01/25/bnsf-intermodal-surprise.html

This might be pretty big for Downtown and the rest of the Valley if BNSF consolidates its multiple yards there, which won't happen until 2025.

I understand why it's great for the area but can you elaborate why this may be a big deal, specifically, for downtown Phoenix? Are you suggesting there may not be a need for the railyards between 7th and 16th Streets (south of Jackson)? Always thought these were UP owned? Don't know much about this topic so any insights are appreciated!

Another PBJ article expanding on this.
https://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2022/01/27/bnsf-economic-impacts-arizona.html

[CrestedSaguaro]

I understand why it's great for the area but can you elaborate why this may be a big deal, specifically, for downtown Phoenix? Are you suggesting there may not be a need for the railyards between 7th and 16th Streets (south of Jackson)? Always thought these were UP owned? Don't know much about this topic so any insights are appreciated!

Another PBJ article expanding on this.
https://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2022/01/27/bnsf-economic-impacts-arizona.html

You may be correct on this. I have only seen Union Pacific trains on those lines (riding my bike around the railyards during lunch was a big thing for me last year, lol). I think it would potentially effect the BNSF yards at Grand/McDowell more. I know BNSF can't expand those yards and the road crossings at that intersection are a complete nightmare.

[combusean]

BNSF has tracks and yards and random parcels from 7th Avenue west... the yard at 7th St is owned by Union Pacific.

[biggus diggus]

All the shipping, warehouses, and logistics will be on the 303 corridor in the near future. I hadn't thought about rail moving our there but it appears that writing is on the wall also.

[combusean]

BNSF has been actively courting customers unlike UP. The White Claw/Red Bull/aluminum can plant amongst others is all on a brand new BNSF spur. Compare this with the UP Mesa spur that will never get built without government subsidies.

[muertecaza]

They've been testing the Tempe street cars on the light rail tracks this week:

https://i.imgur.com/p4MDWxxh.jpg

[CrestedSaguaro]

They've been testing the Tempe street cars on the light rail tracks this week:

https://i.imgur.com/p4MDWxxh.jpg

Thanks for sharing. I have yet to see them testing. Can't wait till I get to ride on one of these!

[N830MH]

They've been testing the Tempe street cars on the light rail tracks this week:

https://i.imgur.com/p4MDWxxh.jpg

Hey buddy! Thanks for sharing! I am looking forward to it! Can’t wait to get on it!

[Obadno]

SR24 full highway route

https://azbex.com/arizona-house-committee-approves-sr-24-extension-funding/

https://azbex.com/newrelease/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/PD-SR-24-Extension-678x381.png

A bill sponsored by State Representative David Cook of Globe that will appropriate $15M to fund an extension of SR 24 and develop a connector that extends from SR 24 along the Central Arizona Project canal alignment has won unanimous approval from the House Transportation Committee.

The money, which equals roughly half the estimated project cost, will be taken from the General Fund next year and issued to the Arizona Department of Transportation for distribution to Pinal County. The County will acquire the right of way for the SR 24 extension and develop the connector route. (Source)

I whish they pushed it a little further south and had the junction meet up with the 60/79 intersection but im not a highway planner.

And I hear it already BLAh BLAH SPRAWL BLAH BLAH

Sprawl is here to stay

[biggus diggus]

It was here before any of us were so it shouldn't be a surprise.

[exit2lef]

I whish they pushed it a little further south and had the junction meet up with the 60/79 intersection but im not a highway planner.

And I hear it already BLAh BLAH SPRAWL BLAH BLAH

Sprawl is here to stay

The location where routes 60 and 79 meet is Florence Junction, which is little more than a dusty crossroads right now. The planned route looks like it would head through the area known as Superstition Vistas, which is just now beginning to sprout new development after decades of planning. It would end near Gold Canyon, which has been built up a lot in recent years. It's probably the most sensible route based on existing development and new development that's likely to occur in the next decade.

[muertecaza]

https://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2022/02/17/valley-metro-updates-tempe-streetcar.html

Some long-awaited Valley transit projects are nearing fruition, as testing has begun on the Tempe Streetcar passenger service while Valley Metro awaits the delivery of the final car.

“Construction on the streetcar has been finished for a few months,” Scott Smith, CEO of Valley Metro, the region's transit authority, said. “The manufacturer of the cars is based in Pennsylvania, but even with a U.S. supplier, there are still supply chain issues. The pandemic wreaked havoc on the plant and delayed the delivery of the cars.”

The fifth car out of six total was delivered in the past couple of weeks, so only one car remains to be delivered. Smith said Valley Metro is in the process of “burn in” for the cars that have been delivered, running them on the tracks and giving the operators practice. The process goes for about three months and Smith said Valley Metro expects to begin service late this spring.

Light rail extension
By the time downtown Phoenix will be hosting Super Bowl festivities this time next year, most of the “rough cut” construction of the downtown light rail hub and portion of the South Central extension in downtown will be completed, Smith said.

The project is about 40% completed now, and once it hits 50%, most of the utility work will be finished, with the next steps being laying down track, which will be less disruptive to the downtown area, Smith said. The South Central extension, which runs south on Central Avenue to Baseline Road, is on schedule to be completed in 2024.

The Northwest extension of the light rail, which will end at the former Metrocenter Mall, is about 34% complete, but Smith said most of the very complex portions of the construction on that section were front-loaded.

Valley Metro has several projects in various stages of planning.

The organization is working on preliminary design of an east and west extension that would bring light rail west on Jefferson Street to 19th Avenue, loop around the State Capitol and then head east on Jefferson Street. Smith said a timeline for that extension is likely around 2026. The extension is not necessarily dependent on an extension of Prop 400, but Smith said local funding has not yet been established, though Valley Metro could possibly get a larger share of the project funded by federal money from the Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act. Grants from the federal government are all competitive and require a local match, Smith said, so identifying local funding sources is key to securing federal money.

A longer-term plan for light rail includes a western extension along Interstate 10, which could possibly lead to Desert Sky Mall. That extension is a much larger scale project than the Capitol extension, but Smith said it could be accelerated by money from the Infrastructure Bill.

The height of the Covid-19 pandemic caused ridership on Valley Metro to drop about 60%, and while it has increased since then, ridership is still down about 45%, Smith said.

The street cars are being tested on the actual street car tracks now, including in traffic, so they seem to be close.

[Code5]

Any new news of the Amtrak plans coming back to Downtown Phoenix? Now that the Infrastructure Bill passed.

Im eager to hear about that line running from Tucson, to Downtown Phoenix, then to Buckeye and beyond.

[Obadno]

Any new news of the Amtrak plans coming back to Downtown Phoenix? Now that the Infrastructure Bill passed.

Im eager to hear about that line running from Tucson, to Downtown Phoenix, then to Buckeye and beyond.

check back in 10 years :haha:

[muertecaza]

https://www.12news.com/article/news/local/valley/electric-bikes-legalized-on-phoenix-roads/75-563ad49e-a379-4cfa-99bc-c735dc0757b6

In a 7-2 vote, the council authorized updating the city's codes to allow residents to ride electric bikes throughout Phoenix.

"Bikes and e-bikes can be a means of reducing traffic congestion and lowering our carbon footprint," city documents state. "Along with health benefits, e-bikes have the added benefit of making cycling easier with the assistance of an electric motor."

The city's ordinance specifically allows Class 1 and Class 2 e-bikes, which can move up to 20 mph, on Phoenix's public right-of-way areas.

While e-bikes have been favored by AZ state statutes since around 2018, apparently they were still not permitted on public rights of way by Phoenix city code. Now that's changed and they are permitted.

[Obadno]

https://www.12news.com/article/news/local/valley/electric-bikes-legalized-on-phoenix-roads/75-563ad49e-a379-4cfa-99bc-c735dc0757b6



While e-bikes have been favored by AZ state statutes since around 2018, apparently they were still not permitted on public rights of way by Phoenix city code. Now that's changed and they are permitted.

Can we get Scooters north of McDowell please?

[exit2lef]

Protected bike lanes on Fillmore have been approved:

https://www.phoenix.gov/streets/fillmore

[RichTempe]

They were testing the Tempe Streetcar this afternoon by my office in Marina Heights. This is the stop where the current line ends.

https://i.postimg.cc/xd3w4y16/20220317-144419.jpg (https://postimg.cc/VS5ZStMt)

https://i.postimg.cc/B6Zr9L84/20220317-144825.jpg (https://postimg.cc/3y6S2wCc)

[exit2lef]

Valley Metro has hired a new CEO to replace Scott Smith, who is retiring:

https://www.railwayage.com/passenger/light-rail/mefford-miller-to-lead-phoenix-valley-metro/

Also, the state senate has approved sending an extension of the half cent Maricopa County transportation tax to the voters this November. It still has to pass the house, and the usual demonization of light rail was cited by several members who voted no:

https://www.12news.com/article/news/local/arizona/arizona-senate-oks-sending-transportation-tax-to-maricopa-co-voters/75-d14741bb-afc5-4713-a557-4a79b8982f8a

[SunDevil]

Valley Metro has hired a new CEO to replace Scott Smith, who is retiring:

https://www.railwayage.com/passenger/light-rail/mefford-miller-to-lead-phoenix-valley-metro/

Also, the state senate has approved sending an extension of the half cent Maricopa County transportation tax to the voters this November. It still has to pass the house, and the usual demonization of light rail was cited by several members who voted no:

https://www.12news.com/article/news/local/arizona/arizona-senate-oks-sending-transportation-tax-to-maricopa-co-voters/75-d14741bb-afc5-4713-a557-4a79b8982f8a

It's ludicrous that a state level senator or representative who represents Kingman (for example) has a say on what taxes a distant county can levy on the citizens in that distant county.

[exit2lef]

It's ludicrous that a state level senator or representative who represents Kingman (for example) has a say on what taxes a distant county can levy on the citizens in that distant county.

I know. It's even more absurd that this requirement applies only to Maricopa County. Arizona's less populated counties can put taxes on a ballot on their own authority, but the biggest one has to obtain 2/3 approval from both houses of the legislature just to let its voters make a decision.

[N830MH]

I know. It's even more absurd that this requirement applies only to Maricopa County. Arizona's less populated counties can put taxes on a ballot on their own authority, but the biggest one has to obtain 2/3 approval from both houses of the legislature just to let its voters make a decision.

Yes, let them decision. If they vote Yes or No. Whatever if they say yes. It's up to the voters.

[CrestedSaguaro]

Waymo to start testing passenger service in Downtown Phoenix (starting with Waymo employees):

https://www.azcentral.com/story/money/business/consumers/2022/03/30/waymo-expanding-autonomous-vehicle-service-downtown-phoenix/7209759001/

I had thought they had already been testing, but apparently they have only been driving around to map the roads.

[muertecaza]

https://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2022/04/15/light-rail-ridership-is-slowly-increasing.html

Many industries have returned to — or exceeded — levels seen before the Covid-19 pandemic and the impact it had on the economy, but one thing still far behind is the public transit ridership.

Phoenix’s public transit operator Valley Metro is still seeing a lot fewer people on its trains and buses than it did before the pandemic.

For fiscal year 2021, which ended last June, Valley Metro reported that total ridership — both buses and light rail — was down more than 57% compared to fiscal year 2019, the last year before a disruption due to Covid-19. The light rail system and new street cars, which are in an expensive — more than $1 billion — process of expanding, have especially seen significant drops in ridership.

“The pandemic has had its impact. There have been fewer events — concerts, games, etc. — and fewer workers traveling to jobs,” said Susan Tierney, the communications manager for Valley Metro. “We had also limited riders to essential workers before vaccinations were available.”

But as life starts to resemble what it was like before the pandemic, there are signs that ridership could be returning.

Monthly weekday ridership numbers for the light rail system, which runs from Mesa to northwest Phoenix, are improving.

In February, which was the most recent ridership report from Valley Metro, there were a total of 564,945 weekday riders on the light rail. That was the highest number of weekday riders in the past 12 months. February’s weekday ridership was up more than 22% from the month before. Fiscal year 2022 is trending ahead of 2021 on ridership as well...

But it isn’t just Covid that has been hurting light rail ridership. Since 2017, ridership has dropped every year, from 16.5 million in fiscal year 2017 to 15.1 million in 2019 to 6.4 million in 2021.

[exit2lef]

^The trains are starting to seem almost as crowded as back in 2109 during my daily commute; however, I have to remind myself that they're running only every 15 minutes instead of every 12 like they used to. That may be creating an illusion by cramming a lower number of passengers into less frequent trains. It'll be interesting to see what kind of ridership and headways exist in two years when the South Central and MetroCenter extensions open and the current single line is replaced with two intersecting routes.

[muertecaza]

https://kjzz.org/content/1775687/all-aboard-tempe-streetcar-service-begins-may-20

Riders will soon be able to hop aboard the new Tempe streetcar. Valley Metro plans to begin service on May 20, and fares will be free for the first year of operation.

[N830MH]

https://kjzz.org/content/1775687/all-aboard-tempe-streetcar-service-begins-may-20

Awesome! Can’t wait to get on it! Looking forward to it!

[MiEncanto]

https://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2022/04/15/light-rail-ridership-is-slowly-increasing.html

I've noticed Bus Rapid continues to be a ghost town and my theory is there was a strong correlation between government employees who may now WFH and BRT. While some jobs are moving back towards hybrid, it's like 1-2 days a weeks so regrettably our most efficient suburban-city people mover is now looking less viable.

[TJPHXskyscraperfan]

They were testing the Tempe Streetcar this afternoon by my office in Marina Heights. This is the stop where the current line ends.

https://i.postimg.cc/xd3w4y16/20220317-144419.jpg (https://postimg.cc/VS5ZStMt)

https://i.postimg.cc/B6Zr9L84/20220317-144825.jpg (https://postimg.cc/3y6S2wCc)

How long does testing take? I thought they would of been done by the start of the school year way back in August. Also when is the Sky Train extension supposed to open?

[combusean]

They were delayed on receiving the cars. It opens May 20th.

[RichTempe]

How long does testing take? I thought they would of been done by the start of the school year way back in August. Also when is the Sky Train extension supposed to open?

They were delayed on receiving the cars. It opens May 20th.

Correct. Tempe had hoped to open it last fall, but the cars are manufactured in Pennsylvania and there were COVID delays in getting all the cars built and delivered. It takes a few months to test the cars and train the drivers.

The Sky Train extension is also supposed to open this year, but Sky Harbor hasn't given an official date yet. I would expect it to be sometime in the summer since all the construction has been completed and they're now in the testing phase for the new tracks and stations.

[N830MH]

The Sky Train extension is also supposed to open this year, but Sky Harbor hasn't given an official date yet. I would expect it to be sometime in the summer since all the construction has been completed and they're now in the testing phase for the new tracks and stations.

Still haven't hear anything going on from Sky Harbor lately. I am sure they will post it on Facebook page. I think SkyTrain extension to Rent Car Center will open in late summer or Fall 2022. Right now, they still testing phase. They should be finished by summer 2022. I will keep update it from my friends at PHX airport.