Metro Phoenix Transit/Transportation Developments

[Obadno]

https://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2023/03/07/bnsf-surprise-phoenix-arizona-rail-complex.html

Surprise gives final stamp of approval to change city's general plan for BNSF rail complex

Surprise City Council gave its final stamp of approval Tuesday for BNSF Railway Co.'s first application to the city for its planned rail complex and logistics center.

In a key first step to building a 4,000-acre intermodal and industrial hub, the freight giant had applied in 2022 for a major change to the city's general plan to allow for industrial development.

The city approved the plan unanimously at Tuesday evening's meeting, with some Council members stating they approved it so they can see more plans from BNSF. Following the approval, BNSF is now expected to submit applications to rezone and annex the massive property into Surprise, which has continued to grow northwest in recent years.

The Texas company, which had original plans to build an intermodal facility in the same area in the 2000s, wants to build its regional rail hub east of 235th Avenue between U.S. Highway 60 and State Route 74, which connects to Interstate 17 by Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Co.'s new factory in north Phoenix.

The approval came a couple of weeks after Surprise's planning commission recommended Council pass the general plan amendment despite limited details presented by BNSF and some opposition from commissioners.

The company previously said that the project could see 30 million-plus square feet of industrial development and estimated that its facility will produce 11,500 construction jobs and represent $1.5 billion in one-time construction economic impacts.

[combusean]

The greater shame is that somebody is paying $900 - $1000+ a month for a 388sqft studio in the slums a block east of there and doesn't have light rail to make their lives easier.

https://www.forrent.com/az/phoenix/the-residences-at-camelback-west/7xtlvfx

I don't care if GCU is right there, that's messed up, especially considering it's managed by a "non profit."

[phoenixwillrise]

The greater shame is that somebody is paying $900 - $1000+ a month for a 388sqft studio in the slums a block east of there and doesn't have light rail to make their lives easier.

https://www.forrent.com/az/phoenix/the-residences-at-camelback-west/7xtlvfx

I don't care if GCU is right there, that's messed up, especially considering it's managed by a "non profit."

It does seem like a no brainer to run light rail from 19th and Camelback west to at minimum initially to GCU to pick up a lot of riders.

[combusean]

Phoenix didn't want to spend the money on a spur route which makes plenty of sense, they usually do very poorly for ridership, especially when businesses on West Camelback didn't want it. It made no sense to build it after Glendale didn't have the money.

So after a refresher I don't understand what's going on with the Momentum plan when they still have the West Phoenix extension programmed but there's no regional money for the Glendale side of things.

The miles of BRT that Phoenix has programmed in lieu of that and other LRT extensions make me wonder if the plan is fundamentally flawed beyond its political woes, but I suppose that's for the transit thread.

[MiEncanto]

I think blaming Glendale was an easy out. They could have ran it west to the Grand Ave which still isn’t in Glendale, where there is room for a park n ride. And it could have connected both GCU and Alhambra HS. But my informed guess is there was an effort to cut GCU out. It certainly makes more sense than connecting to Dunlap and a dead mall.

[combusean]

They didn't blame Glendale but it played a factor. They were lobbied by the car dealerships who didn't want it.

Either way they made the right decision, but not for the reasons they thought. Spur routes for LRT suck. They're even harder to program in the middle of the line, especially right there on Camelback where there aren't turnaround or storage tracks and will never be. My understanding is that if built, no trains could have operated in the signal block when the operator is turning around on the opposite switched track, so it adds a lot of delays to the overall system or costly mitigation that wouldn't have been worth it for such a short extension. Remember that the South Central extension necessitated the construction of the downtown hub and two sets of turnaround tracks.

[exit2lef]

TMy understanding is that if built, no trains could have operated in the signal block when the operator is turning around on the opposite switched track

Can you explain what this means? What is the "signal block"?

[AZRAM]

It seems to me, political and funding issues aside, that the ideal situation would be for the L/R to continue on from Metrocenter to Westgate which IS a major destination point. People would be able to get on the L/R as far as Mesa and and go to a game or party in Westgate and not have to drive.

[exit2lef]

It seems to me, political and funding issues aside, that the ideal situation would be for the L/R to continue on from Metrocenter to Westgate which IS a major destination point. People would be able to get on the L/R as far as Mesa and and go to a game or party in Westgate and not have to drive.


The sports sprawl of Westgate is frequently invoked as a wish-list destination for light rail, but it would actually be a terrible choice as a terminus for a new line. The Cardinals play home games only about 10 times per year, and the Coyotes have moved to Tempe. Even if you add some concerts, you'd still have a line that works only for seasonal and sporadic special events.

If Glendale ever changes it minds about light rail, it would make far more sense for the line to serve existing neighborhoods and enduring destinations. A line going up 59th Avenue might not seem as glamorous as one going to Westgate, but it would draw more reliable ridership by serving places like Glendale Community College, Thunderbird Hospital, and Arizona Christian University.

[combusean]

There is a LOT more going on at Westgate than 10 Cardinals games a year. That should go without saying.

[combusean]

Can you explain what this means? What is the "signal block"?

Train control usually reserves a section of track (called a block) at a time for a train to traverse. A turning around train using the switched track would tie up both sections of track for a while so to get around this they'd have to build expensive turnaround tracks which is a lot of infrastructure for a very short line

[exit2lef]

There is a LOT more going on at Westgate than 10 Cardinals games a year. That should go without saying.

There are some people who go there for dining, shopping, and nightlife, but most of them are already on the west side and likely to live farther out than any light rail line. They'll drive no matter what. I don't think many people from central Phoenix or the East Valley go there unless there's a special event, and there just aren't enough of those to justify a light ral line in the asbsence of offices and schools that would create more steady ridership.

[exit2lef]

Train control usually reserves a section of track (called a block) at a time for a train to traverse. A turning around train using the switched track would tie up both sections of track for a while so to get around this they'd have to build expensive turnaround tracks which is a lot of infrastructure for a very short line

Why would trains have to turn around at any location other than 35th Avenue, 43rd Avenue, or wherever the spur's terminus would be?

[locolife]

Why would trains have to turn around at any location other than 35th Avenue, 43rd Avenue, or wherever the spur's terminus would be?

One reason is they want to send more trains in one direction at specific times, I took the train to the Suns game Thursday night, heading eastbound from 3rd/Jefferson station they had 2 trains with 4 cars each leaving at the same time. You certainly want flexibility for emergencies as well, if an accident occurs somewhere running to and from a built-in turnaround point makes sense as well.

[exit2lef]

One reason is they want to send more trains in one direction at specific times, I took the train to the Suns game Thursday night, heading eastbound from 3rd/Jefferson station they had 2 trains with 4 cars each leaving at the same time. You certainly want flexibility for emergencies as well, if an accident occurs somewhere running to and from a built-in turnaround point makes sense as well.

On the current 28-mile line, that makes sense. I don't see it as a necessity for a two or three-mile spur, though.

[combusean]

Why would trains have to turn around at any location other than 35th Avenue, 43rd Avenue, or wherever the spur's terminus would be?

I'm talking about the east side of the Camelback spur.

They would have two realistic options:

- build turnaround tracks, which is heavy on infrastructure costs.

- turnaround somewhere downtown, which effectively doubles the operating costs for a short spur.

Neither option is good for such a short line.

[exit2lef]

I'm talking about the east side of the Camelback spur.

They would have two realistic options:

- build turnaround tracks, which is heavy on infrastructure costs.

- turnaround somewhere downtown, which effectively doubles the operating costs for a short spur.

Neither option is good for such a short line.

I still don't see the need. The spur would not be operated as a two or three-mile back-and-forth train. Instead, trains heading west on Camelback would have two routes, one that goes north via the existing track on 19th Avenue and another that would continue west on Camelback to a new terminus at 35th or 43rd Avenue. Plenty of cities do this. They run multiple trains, differentiated by colors, numbers, or letters, that "interline" along the core of their routes but then branch to different termini as they continue.

[combusean]

As I said, duplicating service on an existing line increases operating costs.

And plenty of cities doesn't necessarily include Phoenix, which also doesn't have the need to duplicate service--they built all the turnaround tracks downtown so they aren't forced into doing just that.

SF didn't even bother keeping two trains going to the Caltrain station from Market with the central subway extension, so it's pretty naive to think that a spur would maintain let alone increase existing service anyways.

[exit2lef]

As I said, duplicating service on an existing line increases operating costs.

And plenty of cities doesn't necessarily include Phoenix, which also doesn't have the need to duplicate service--they built all the turnaround tracks downtown so they aren't forced into doing just that.

SF didn't even bother keeping two trains going to the Caltrain station from Market with the central subway extension, so it's pretty naive to think that a spur would maintain let alone increase existing service anyways.

I don't see how it would increase operating costs. Instead, it would allow higher frequency of service on the most heavily used portion of the existing line, with alternating trains serving the 19th Avenue and West Camelback portions.

[PyroD]

This should probably all be moved to the discussion thread. As for Westgate, I've seen lots of people clamoring for a line out that way. Leaving State Farm stadium is a nightmare, and there's lots more planned and under construction in terms of things to do. Not to mention, if along the original route, 3 high schools, a university and tons of apartments would be a long the route

[MiEncanto]

Keep dreaming folks. There’s a 0.0% chance of LR making it to Westgate. Sure, traffic sucks after a game or concert but otherwise there’s little demand for it and a ton of obstacles.

[exit2lef]

This should probably all be moved to the discussion thread. As for Westgate, I've seen lots of people clamoring for a line out that way. Leaving State Farm stadium is a nightmare, and there's lots more planned and under construction in terms of things to do. Not to mention, if along the original route, 3 high schools, a university and tons of apartments would be a long the route

Which original route are you referring to? Most of the clamoring I've seen reflects a desire for an easier way to get to and from NFL games and Taylor Swift concerts. Those events are a big deal in terms of congestion, but they're also too limited in number to generate sufficient ongoing ridership to justify the cost of a rail line.

Keep dreaming folks. There’s a 0.0% chance of LR making it to Westgate. Sure, traffic sucks after a game or concert but otherwise there’s little demand for it and a ton of obstacles.

I'll keep dreaming, but not in the way most others do. I thnk Glendale should reconsider light rail, but not with Westgate as a destination. As I recall, one of the major issues with going there was the need to build a bridge over the freight tracks than run along Grande Avenue. Heading up 59th Avenue from downtown Glendale would avoid that costly and complex project entirely.

[pbenjamin]

One reason is they want to send more trains in one direction at specific times, I took the train to the Suns game Thursday night, heading eastbound from 3rd/Jefferson station they had 2 trains with 4 cars each leaving at the same time. You certainly want flexibility for emergencies as well, if an accident occurs somewhere running to and from a built-in turnaround point makes sense as well.

There are no 4 car trains.

[pbenjamin]

It seems to me, political and funding issues aside, that the ideal situation would be for the L/R to continue on from Metrocenter to Westgate which IS a major destination point. People would be able to get on the L/R as far as Mesa and and go to a game or party in Westgate and not have to drive.

It currently takes about an hour and a half on the train to get from Main St/Gilbert Rd to 19th Ave/Dunlap. To go beyond to Metrocenter and then Westgate would be at least another half hour. Very few people would be willing to spend four hours on the train round trip.

[locolife]

It currently takes about an hour and a half on the train to get from Main St/Gilbert Rd to 19th Ave/Dunlap. To go beyond to Metrocenter and then Westgate would be at least another half hour. Very few people would be willing to spend four hours on the train round trip.

If they ever run a train west on the median of the 10 to 83rd Ave it would be nice to have that run to westgate from downtown and I assume it could be fast with that alignment but you’re right a trip from Mesa to Glendale at the current route and speed is too long. I live in Tempe and take the train to Suns and D’Baks games when we go, it is much better than driving. I usually get on at Washington/Priest and it’s about 20 mins, comparable to driving especially when you unload use downtown traffic and parking garage hassles.

[locolife]

There are no 4 car trains.

Okay, maybe it was 2 or 3, the point is regarding the ability to turnaround.

[combusean]

It currently takes about an hour and a half on the train to get from Main St/Gilbert Rd to 19th Ave/Dunlap. To go beyond to Metrocenter and then Westgate would be at least another half hour. Very few people would be willing to spend four hours on the train round trip.

I wasn't aware Westgate attracted anyone from the east side, drivers included. The existence of the East Valley should not negate the needs of the West Valley anyways. I could have used the train to see bands at Westgate when I lived downtown.

[YourBuddy]

To me commuter rail would serve Westgate so much better. Is there enough traffic going to westgate on non event days? I’m not sure, but it’s seems to me like traffic is probably only bad when it’s a big concert or a football game which draw people from all over the valley. I would think commuter rail connecting Westgate, to downtown, to the East Valley, then a BRT route from westgate thru GCU campus and east to the light rail, and maybe a short route from the Metro center redevelopment to GCU would make a lot more sense.

[PyroD]

Which original route are you referring to? Most of the clamoring I've seen reflects a desire for an easier way to get to and from NFL games and Taylor Swift concerts. Those events are a big deal in terms of congestion, but they're also too limited in number to generate sufficient ongoing ridership to justify the cost of a rail line.

I was referring to the line originally meant to run to downtown Glendale. I believe at the time, Glendale wanted to keep the line open ended so that an extension to West gate would have been possible. Were that to come to fruition, Glendale avenue would pass by both Glendale and Independence High School's along with a lot housing, a fair amount of which is lower income.

Someone else mentioned commuter rail being needed and I think that's spot on. I'm aware, and I've read here that Light Rail isn't really intended to cross an entire metro, although it's certainly possible.

[exit2lef]

I was referring to the line originally meant to run to downtown Glendale. I believe at the time, Glendale wanted to keep the line open ended so that an extension to West gate would have been possible. Were that to come to fruition, Glendale avenue would pass by both Glendale and Independence High School's along with a lot housing, a fair amount of which is lower income.



Thanks for the clarification. There's also Alhambra High School, which would be covered even in Phoenix went ahead only with its own portion of the line.

[MiEncanto]

I'll keep dreaming, but not in the way most others do. I thnk Glendale should reconsider light rail, but not with Westgate as a destination. As I recall, one of the major issues with going there was the need to build a bridge over the freight tracks than run along Grande Avenue. Heading up 59th Avenue from downtown Glendale would avoid that costly and complex project entirely.

It sounds like we're in violent agreement then. Glendale has several other financial, political, and practical reasons why they wouldn't pay to bring it all the way to Westgate.

[exit2lef]

It sounds like we're in violent agreement then. Glendale has several other financial, political, and practical reasons why they wouldn't pay to bring it all the way to Westgate.

Yes, the subsizdized sports sprawl of Westgate has been a financial drain on Glendale. Building light rail to that particular destination would just be a case of digging oneself deeper into a hole.

[MiEncanto]

To me commuter rail would serve Westgate so much better. Is there enough traffic going to westgate on non event days? I’m not sure, but it’s seems to me like traffic is probably only bad when it’s a big concert or a football game which draw people from all over the valley. I would think commuter rail connecting Westgate, to downtown, to the East Valley, then a BRT route from westgate thru GCU campus and east to the light rail, and maybe a short route from the Metro center redevelopment to GCU would make a lot more sense.

Commuter rail is the the real victim here. People are so frustrated with the low ridership, cost overruns, lengthy construction, and how slow light rail is that we're now seeing opposition in the suburbs to commuter rail- which would actually help the burbs! It's insane but the current effort in Gilbert to oppose commuter rail is not insignificant.

Commuter rail, using existing rights of way that cut from the southeast, through Tempe, the airport, Phoenix and then up Grande Ave would be an absolute boon for commuters at fairly reasonable costs that the Feds would pay a ton for. But alas, many think it's the same as light rail so there is a lot of associated opposition.

If you could get from Queen Creek to downtown Phx in 30 mins on a train that would be amazing.

The light rail gets to be pretty frustrating when you consider that our current expansions are all pretty suspect destinations. South Phoenix to downtown? I just don't see many in S. Phx using that to get to work.

I've long ranted about the disaster of brining LR to Metrocenter. Whatever, I'll be happy to be wrong but I still don't believe in that redevelopment project.

And then there's the Capitol complex, which is now a ghost town because the State went to almost entirely remote work! The State has recently demolished 3 massive buildings with no intention to rebuild due to consolidation. Those buildings were/are mostly admin so they could easily go remote; they're client facing. So great, we're going to spend hundreds of millions to encircle the part-time State Legislature? AND it's going to pass right by the Human Services Campus/CASS/homeless shelter so let your imagination wander.

The LR should have proceeded West along Van Buren to help redevelopment on an commercial street, instead of the boring state owned property on Wash and Jefferson. Then it could have turned up Grand Ave, y'know, where people live/work/eat who would actually use LR. Then it could jump on the I-10 west. What a waste.

[exit2lef]

Commuter rail, using existing rights of way that cut from the southeast, through Tempe, the airport, Phoenix and then up Grande Ave would be an absolute boon for commuters at fairly reasonable costs that the Feds would pay a ton for. But alas, many think it's the same as light rail so there is a lot of associated opposition.



I don't think it's entirely about people associating commuter rail with whatever problems they perceive with light rail. Rail of any type has become yet another battle in the culture war. The more extreme forces that now dominate the Republican Party don't want passenger trains of any type anywhere near them.

In terms of commuter rail using existing track and right-of-way, I agree; however, that's why commuter rail would be unllikely to go to Westgate. The closest existing track comes is 59th Avenue and Grand in downtown Glendale. If Westgate were ever served by either commuter rail or light rail, then a game/concert day shuttle bus from there would make sense.

[MiEncanto]

I don't think it's entirely about people associating commuter rail with whatever problems they perceive with light rail. Rail of any type has become yet another battle in the culture war. The more extreme forces that now dominate the Republican Party don't want passenger trains of any type anywhere near them.



I largely agree with that. Some of the rhetoric about commuter rail leveraged problems with the LR, such as increasing drifters and vagrants, which doesn't have to be the case if the commuter rail requires payment to enter.

I've seen social media posts showing people waiting at a red light waiting on a LR train to pass and say that it will increase traffic (plus construction woes), when the reality is these trains wont have near the frequency of LR and the construction traffic shouldn't be that problematic.

[azsunsurfer]

I don't think it's entirely about people associating commuter rail with whatever problems they perceive with light rail. Rail of any type has become yet another battle in the culture war. The more extreme forces that now dominate the Republican Party don't want passenger trains of any type anywhere near them.

In terms of commuter rail using existing track and right-of-way, I agree; however, that's why commuter rail would be unllikely to go to Westgate. The closest existing track comes is 59th Avenue and Grand in downtown Glendale. If Westgate were ever served by either commuter rail or light rail, then a game/concert day shuttle bus from there would make sense.

An oldie but a goody....the "extreme forces" always seem to be grounded in reality...also see 'people of metro LA' on instagram from another city with a relatively young mass transit network....

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2017/03/21/19th-avenue-residents-say-light-rail-damaging-phoenix-neighborhood/99233140/

[exit2lef]

An oldie but a goody....the "extreme forces" always seem to be grounded in reality...also see 'people of metro LA' on instagram from another city with a relatively young mass transit network....

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2017/03/21/19th-avenue-residents-say-light-rail-damaging-phoenix-neighborhood/99233140/

They are not grounded in reality when they invoke conspiracy theories about Agenda 21 and 15-minute cities. For the extremists in the state legislature and the Gilbert Town Council, it's about avoiding any type of train or anything that even resembles a train.

A six-year-old article, especially one that doesn't really distinguish between correlation and causation, may explain some doubts about light rail, but it has nothing to do with commuter rail, Amtrak intercity rail, or any of the other bogeymen currently in circulation.

[azsunsurfer]

I hope the tweekers adhere to the boundaries of the 15 minute cities lolol. Nice take from the safety of your homogenous community lol

[exit2lef]

I hope the tweekers adhere to the boundaries of the 15 minute cities lolol. Nice take from the safety of your homogenous community lol

For tweakers, a residential treatment center, or jail if treatment is refused, is probably both a 15-minute city and a homogenous community. That doesn't have much to do with the demonization of rail transit, though.

[YourBuddy]

These suburban weirdos are disconnected from reality. Do they even realize transients are more likely to stow away on freight cars that already use the tracks that don’t have employees checking for tickets?

[pbenjamin]

I wasn't aware Westgate attracted anyone from the east side, drivers included. The existence of the East Valley should not negate the needs of the West Valley anyways. I could have used the train to see bands at Westgate when I lived downtown.

I'm not aware that Westgate attracts anyone. I was just reacting to

People would be able to get on the L/R as far as Mesa and and go to a game or party in Westgate

[N830MH]

There are no 4 car trains.

Right! Only 3 car trains, not 4.

[TJPHXskyscraperfan]

I'm not aware that Westgate attracts anyone. I was just reacting to

That would take dang near 2 hours from Mesa to Westgate. If u have a enough money for a concert ticket, Uber would definitely. Be the better option.

[ChaseM]

Phoenix is currently seeking input on BRT (Bus Rapid Transit), there’s a link to the survey that runs until April 28th with illustrations as well as a link to the previous meeting showing potential routes.

https://www.phoenix.gov/publictransit/brt

https://www.arcgis.com/sharing/rest/content/items/766b05776b2c430a8b70974008bd2633/info/media/PHX-BRT-Center-Running-MaxRW.png

https://www.arcgis.com/sharing/rest/content/items/766b05776b2c430a8b70974008bd2633/info/media/PHX-BRT-Side-Running-MaxRW.png

https://www.arcgis.com/sharing/rest/content/items/766b05776b2c430a8b70974008bd2633/info/media/BRTConsiderations.png

[YourBuddy]

Would prefer the sidewalks and and bike paths to be separated from the street by the trees instead of the other way around.

[exit2lef]

Would prefer the sidewalks and and bike paths to be separated from the street by the trees instead of the other way around.

Yes, that would make a lot of sense.

[combusean]

I struggle to think of where they have the right of way to do this anyways, so it all seems pretty moot. I am under the impression that nearly everywhere they have BRT scheduled is 3 lanes going one way, 2 going the other with a lane in the middle like most of the rest of the city.

[N830MH]

Funny! They were talking about Bus Rapid Transit again.

https://www.azfamily.com/app/2023/05/31/bus-rapid-transit-new-method-public-transportation-coming-phoenix/

Let the speculation begin!

[combusean]

BRT is unlikely to attract new development but I gotta say it's a beautiful thing where i've used it. I really hope this does become like red carpet lane like in previous renders.

[exit2lef]

BRT is now attracting as much opposition as light rail:

https://www.stoproaddiets.com/

Some opponents of light rail have argued that BRT is just as good as rail and cheaper. I've always though that was disingenuous argument because I suspected the rail opponents would turn against BRT the momennt it involved the dedicated lanes needed to make BRT better than standard bus service. With this site, they're affirming my worst suspicions.

[Obadno]

BRT is now attracting as much opposition as light rail:

https://www.stoproaddiets.com/

Some opponents of light rail have argued that BRT is just as good as rail and cheaper. I've always though that was disingenuous argument because I suspected the rail opponents would turn against BRT the momennt it involved the dedicated lanes needed to make BRT better than standard bus service. With this site, they're affirming my worst suspicions.

There was always going to be opposition because there is a large number of people who think of public transit as a boondoggle. and they aren't crazy there is plenty of examples of public transit boondoggles.

[exit2lef]

There was always going to be opposition because there is a large number of people who think of public transit as a boondoggle. and they aren't crazy there is plenty of examples of public transit boondoggles.

Some are crazy, some are calculating liars, and some are a mixture of both. In any case, it's useful to have confirmation that many people who argue that buses are better than trains don't really want to support either in a serious way. The downside of this website's existence is that it confirms that even if a Proposition 400 extension makes it out of the legislature, it will face serious opposition.

[combusean]

^ This is the work of one small group of far-right crazies (election was stolen, etc) and isn't indicative of any larger movement.

[exit2lef]

^ This is the work of one small group of far-right crazies (election was stolen, etc) and isn't indicative of any larger movement.

The Arizona Free Enterprise Club was around before MAGA and election denialism. They're more reflective of the Tea Party movement and conservatarian ideology. I agree that they don't reflect widespread public sentiment, but I don't underestimate their ability to spread disinformation. They're hoping their allies in the legislature keep a measure with a strong public transit component off the ballot but are also prepared to fight if one goes to the voters.

[combusean]

This isn't the work of the Arizona Free Enterprise Club, they're just using their information.

[exit2lef]

This isn't the work of the Arizona Free Enterprise Club, they're just using their information.

The shadowy "Strong Communities Action" group is listed, but who knows how they're funded and what links may exist behind the scenes. What's most interesting to me is that the Strong Communities site mentions content from Sam Stone, former chief of staff to Sal DiCiccio and policy advisor to Kari Lake. During his own unsuccessful run for city council, Stone explicitly argued in favor of BRT as an alternative to light rail.

[combusean]

It's not that shadowy, the principals are in open corporates. It's literally one far right crazy and her friends involved in campaigning and advocacy and have their hands in a bunch of things that are mostly an echo chamber of each other.

The fact that BRT, which has always been favored by moderates on the right, is conflated with the more unpopular road diets is pretty indicative these people are just reactionaries and don't have any background in planning or transportation that would make their contributions meaningful to the overall conversation. They couldn't even get Wendell Cox or Randall O'Toole on their side even if they had the wherewithal to ask.

Then the same group is so all over the place with their stolen election nonsense you can't hardly expect them to stay on message, or at least craft a message that would appeal to most people.

Meanwhile Phoenix is already starting work on 35th Ave BRT.

[PyroD]

I learned about the two other projects through that NIMBY link ironically. Are this actual current plans or is that being conflated? Also, they seemingly have little to no issue with the 35th Ave line that's happening.

[Obadno]

The Arizona Free Enterprise Club was around before MAGA and election denialism. They're more reflective of the Tea Party movement and conservatarian ideology.

So was opposition to public transit.

People have been denying elections for decades quite literally (But 2000 doesn't count, 1960's Chicago doesn't count, Kennedy doesn't count, FDR doesnt count)

I am not going to go off on this tangent but these sorts of politics are older than all of us despite what your recency bias tells you.

[exit2lef]

I learned about the two other projects through that NIMBY link ironically. Are this actual current plans or is that being conflated? Also, they seemingly have little to no issue with the 35th Ave line that's happening.

The Scottsdale Road and Arizona Avenue plans are just at the study stage right now. They're not as far along as Phoenix's BRT route on 35th Ave. I suspect they're being highlighted because any high capacity transit, whether bus or rail, is more likely to be viewed unfavorably in those suburbs. Scottsdale, Chandler, or Gilbert residents can be more easily motivated to fear the BRT bogeyman in their own backyards than on the west side of Phoenix where they never go.

[combusean]

They've been in the "study" phase but to even have gotten there they've been designated as high-capacity transit corridors for years.

Scottsdale Rd has been designated a high-capacity transit corridor since at least 2021 with their 2035 general plan and probably longer than that on other maps.

https://www.scottsdaleaz.gov/transportation/transportation-action-plan/transit

I'm also pretty sure Arizona Avenue came out of an already completed Alternatives Analysis, so that's further along than typical studies.

This group is a bunch of idiot Johnny come-latelies and rabble rousers. Fighting BRT on established corridors puts them very much in the minority.

[exit2lef]

The latest on the saga of extending Propositon 400:

https://azcapitoltimes.com/news/2023/06/02/hobbs-negotiating-with-gop-lawmakers-to-try-to-ask-voters-to-extend-transportation-tax/

[DesertRay]

The latest on the saga of extending Propositon 400:

https://azcapitoltimes.com/news/2023/06/02/hobbs-negotiating-with-gop-lawmakers-to-try-to-ask-voters-to-extend-transportation-tax/

Scorched-earth tactics by hard-right a-holes. Pay-as-you-go-by-self taxation is about as responsibly conservative as you can get. Make these people pay if they *actually* stand in the way, because this will wreck a perfectly good system and cost us a TON of wasted money (see: Arpaio). They can't stand it when governance works.

[DesertRay]

Whoever blocks this will become political roadkill.

Transportation, highway upgrades in limbo as Arizona lawmakers debate Proposition 400 (https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix-traffic/2023/06/05/maricopa-county-highway-public-transit-prop-400/70219820007/)
Taylor Seely
Arizona Republic

It all could be in jeopardy, everything from roadway improvements to highway construction and public transit service in Maricopa County, if the Legislature and governor can't reach a deal in the next few weeks on Proposition 400, the region's half-cent transportation sales tax.

And with it, civic leaders, transportation experts and economists say, the fate of the region's economic vibrancy could be at stake.

The 25-year spending plan that Proposition 400 triggers calls for billions of dollars of investments in key highway and transit projects, which are vital to the region's mobility, development and to its competitiveness.

Not everyone is on board with the plan. Conservative lawmakers who may decide its fate have criticized it, suggesting the blueprint is bloated with expensive public transit projects that don't serve large parts of the population and it commits to maintaining that service for years.

If the half-cent sales tax is extended, the spending plan would generate nearly $113 billion in economic benefits for Maricopa County, according to an analysis by the regional government agency, Maricopa Association of Governments, and the pro-business Greater Phoenix Economic Council.

Voters first approved the tax for 20 years in 1985, and then again in 2004. It funds a significant portion of Maricopa County's roadways, highways and public transit — if not alone, then by leveraging federal and other matching funds or grants.

Proposition 400 has transformed the Valley, building out Loops 101, 202 and 303 that circle metro Phoenix. It helped construct State Route 51 in Phoenix and State Route 24 in the East Valley. It helped build and expand Valley Metro's light rail system, currently in Mesa, Tempe and Phoenix. It funds critical portions of the region's public bus system too, such as the buses themselves and Dial-a-Ride service for people with disabilities and seniors. And it helps cities pay for local street projects.

It also made metro Phoenix an easier place to get around.

In 2004, metro Phoenix ranked the 10th most congested city in America, according to widely respected research by the Texas Transportation Institute. By 2011, it had fallen to 20th, and among similar-sized cities, metro Phoenix fell from 7th to 10th most congested.


According to the most recent Federal Highway Administration data from 2019, Phoenix was ranked 24th most congested among the 52 largest cities by one widely used measure. By another measure, hours of congestion, Phoenix ranked 44th.

The proposed new regional sales tax, if approved, would represent a nearly $37 billion investment in the state's economic center over the next 25 years, with the sales tax accounting for $19.5 billion of that revenue. The sales tax revenue would be divided:

40.4% for public transit.
37.4% for freeways.
22.2% for arterials and programs.
When state and federal funds are added, freeways account for nearly half of the region's spending plan enabled by Proposition 400 money.

Revenue from the half-cent sales tax also opens Arizona's door to billions of dollars in federal grant funds that are doled out on a matching basis — money that is provided so long as the region chips in, too.

Proposition 400 effect by city: Phoenix | Glendale | Peoria | Buckeye | Surprise | Avondale | Goodyear | Litchfield Park | Tolleson

It was regional Proposition 400 funding that allowed the Arizona Department of Transportation the chance to apply for and receive $90 million in federal grants to expand Interstate 17 between Anthem and Sunset Way, said John Bullen, the Maricopa Association of Governments transportation and finance manager.

The association brings mayors together to plan transportation funding and projects.

If the next iteration of Proposition 400 passes, federal matching grants could provide about $2 billion to the Valley's light rail projects and hundreds of millions of dollars for roadway projects, Bullen said.

Much of the federal matching funds no longer will be available, however, if the local contribution vanishes, Bullen said.

Two new highways — one in Goodyear and Avondale and one in Queen Creek — plus a highway interchange in north Phoenix comprise three other critical pieces of infrastructure Maricopa County mayors and local officials want to see built over the next 25 years.

The highways are meant to reduce traffic and accommodate growth, but the transportation tax that laid the foundation for the region's roadways, highways and public transit is set to expire in 2026 unless voters pass it again. And there's another caveat — a huge one.

Lawmakers must approve transportation tax vote
The Legislature has to allow Maricopa County residents to vote on their own transportation tax, and it's unclear if or how lawmakers will let them.

Last year, former Gov. Doug Ducey vetoed the measure from appearing on Maricopa County residents' ballots, citing concerns over inflation and transparency in how the measure would be worded. The unexpected move stunned mayors across the Valley, who condemned the veto and have since intensified efforts to get the Legislature and Gov. Katie Hobbs to pass the sales tax extension this session.

Avondale Mayor Kenn Weise said at the time of Ducey's veto, "I'm a Republican. Small-government type. In Arizona, we rail against federal mandates. ... We rail against them, and then when the governor does what he does, we're supposed to suck it up and take it, and I'm not going to do that. I think that's unfair."

Discussions this year at the Capitol have been turbulent. Hobbs and the Legislature will reconvene later this month, when they are expected to negotiate transportation and housing issues.

Sen. David Farnsworth, chairman of the Senate Transportation Committee, rejected arguments that a plan that would curtail transit would cut off federal transit dollars.

“Our goal is not to push away federal dollars," Farnsworth, R-Mesa, said at a February hearing. "We want to make sure we’re not throwing away our liberties just to get a nickel from the federal government.”

Light rail is the major roadblock in Proposition 400 talks, with Republicans arguing it’s not cost effective and is inappropriate for the Valley’s far-flung communities.

Sen Jake Hoffman, R-Queen Creek, is critical of what he calls an “absolutely failed light rail system." Early this year, he argued it would be more cost-effective to pay ride-share fares out of tax dollars than put that money into transit.

There is general agreement that any successful plan will not include the Maricopa Association of Governments' original proposal to provide funding to expand light rail. However, the plan could include funding for maintaining existing light rail tracks and equipment.

Freeway and other road funding have widespread support at the Legislature, but GOP lawmakers will need to land on an agreement that will win the approval of one key Democrat — Gov. Katie Hobbs. Hobbs has said she would veto a plan that reduces transit funding.

On June 1, when asked about rail expansion, Hobbs said, "I am not pushing for that, no, and I don't think any other stakeholders are."

She reiterated her support for the overall MAG plan.

"I continue to say this is a really important piece of legislation for the region, for the whole state as well,” Hobbs said at a news conference. “And we're going to do what we can to get it across the finish line."

End of Proposition 400 would hurt economy, quality of life, officials say
Maricopa Association of Governments officials say delaying or failing to fund the projects would cost Arizona billions of dollars and worsen residents' quality of life.

An analysis from the association and GPEC says freeways built with 1985 and 2004 transportation taxes have reduced travel times by an average of 25%, saving the typical driver 105 hours a year they otherwise would have spent in traffic.

Properties within a quarter-mile of the highways went up in value 212%, while properties within a quarter-mile of the light rail went up 316%, the analysis says.

The GPEC study also found that local business sales will grow on average $4.5 billion a year, $40 billion in new, net local income will be generated through 2050 and 12% more amenities will be available within a 30-minute drive, the analysis says.

There's a more personal impact on residents' daily lives, too, officials say. Proposition 400 funds paratransit service for people with disabilities in Maricopa County.

Mayors in Maricopa County want to extend Proposition 400, the half-cent regional sales tax that funds transportation projects, so that a number of highways, arterial street and public transportation services can advance beyond 2026.
"The sales tax is the only dedicated funding source to provide that. Our most vulnerable users — our seniors, those who are disabled — this is truly a lifeline for them," said Audra Koester Thomas, Maricopa Association of Governments planning manager.

Proposition 400 also provides funding for a significant number of bus routes across the county that could see service cease Jan. 1, 2026, if the sales tax fails or doesn't make it to the ballot.


Two-thirds of public transit users in the Valley have no other option to get around, Koester Thomas said. So, if the Proposition 400 extension fails, they'll be without service.

Local leaders, meanwhile, are waiting anxiously — particularly those in the southwest and far East Valley who've long waited their turn for the sales tax to deliver significant projects in their cities.

Southwest Valley cities have long waited for State Route 30
For more than two decades, Buckeye, Goodyear, Avondale and Tolleson have been promised a new highway, State Route 30, to relieve traffic on Interstate 10.

SR 30 would run parallel to I-10 a few miles south and, at full buildout, connect SR 85 in Buckeye in the west to I-17's Durango Curve in Phoenix. Along the way, SR 30 would cross the perpendicular Loops 303 and 202 near Goodyear and Tolleson, respectively.

Since I-10 is the only east-west highway connecting the southwest Valley to downtown Phoenix and the East Valley, State Route 30 is expected to reduce travel times for commuters in the West Valley by adding another path. The added path would help not just city residents but also trucks delivering freight from the Southern California ports.

Local leaders in the southwest Valley who wanted SR 30 back when the 2004 transportation tax was negotiated agreed to defer it so long as it was prioritized the next round, this round.

An extension of Proposition 400, the half-cent sales tax dedicated to transportation, would advance a new highway called State Route 30 in Goodyear and Avondale. At full build-out, SR 30 would connect Buckeye to Phoenix.
The extension of Proposition 400, if passed as the Maricopa Association of Governments planned, would fully fund the buildout of SR 30 between Loop 303 and I-17, starting with the center portion between Loop 303 and Loop 202, then the eastern segment between Loop 202 and I-17.

The western segment of SR 30, connecting SR 85 to Loop 303, would come last because traffic patterns show higher demand for the other segments, Koester Thomas said.

The center segment was estimated to cost $2 billion in 2020 but has increased by about $700 million since then because of inflation, according to Maricopa Association of Governments. If inflation increases 6% per year, the project will increase $168 million every year it's delayed, according to the report.

I-17/Loop 303 interchange in Phoenix called vital for semiconductor plant

An interchange between I-17 and Loop 303 in north Phoenix is critical to ease traffic expected from the new Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company factory, said Bullen, MAG's transportation and finance manager.

New interchanges on Loop 303 at 43rd and 51st avenues will be enough to abate that traffic until about 2025, Bullen said.

"There's going to be a lot of people going in and out, a lot of suppliers going in and out, a lot of employees," Bullen said. "It's going to start to break down."

Local leaders are concerned TSMC could delay hiring and capital investment until the interchange is sorted out. The economic analysis from the Maricopa Association of Governments and GPEC said delays could cost the state $100 million in economic output and $30 million in income loss per year.

The new portion of Loop 303 under the Proposition 400 extension plan would extend from I-17 on the east to Lake Pleasant Parkway on the west.

Loop 101
Queen Creek could face congestion without completed State Route 24
In the southeast Valley, Proposition 400 built the first phase of State Route 24, a six-lane freeway from Loop 202 to Ironwood Drive. Extending the half-cent sales tax will finish it.

Bridges over Ellsworth and Mountain roads with two lanes going each direction and stoplights were constructed in Queen Creek as a stopgap measure to "get us a couple of years into the future," Bullen said, but the new LG facility and population growth will put pressure on those roads.

"It will buy us a few years, but just a few years, given the growth out there," he said.

More funding will expand the stopgap roadways into a full-fledged highway.

The full State Route 24 was identified in the 2004 half-cent sales tax plan, but the Great Recession drastically reduced sales tax revenue, which resulted in the delay of multiple transportation projects, Bullen said.

The extension of Proposition 400, now in limbo at the Legislature, is largely about finishing previously committed-to highway projects that were hampered by the recession, Bullen said.

Light rail extensions proposed for west side
Myriad improvements to the Valley light rail system, totaling $2.4 billion, are included in Proposition 400. That figure is about 30% of the total cost of the projects, Bullen said. Cities will pick up roughly another 20%, and federal matching grants are expected to cover the remaining 50%.

Maintenance and improvements to the entirety of the rail system are planned and account for $1.4 billion of the Proposition 400 costs, but the most notable light rail projects include two westward extensions.

One proposed extension could take the light rail 9.4 miles west along I-10, from the state Capitol on the east to 79th Avenue on the west. It would be constructed in the freeway median before crossing over to the north side of I-10 and stopping at the Desert Sky Transit Center between 75th and 79th avenues north of McDowell Road, according to the Valley Metro website. Proposition 400's contribution would be about $810 million.

Another west Phoenix extension could be constructed between 19th and 43rd avenues and between Bethany Home and Indian School roads. The exact alignment has not been determined. Proposition 400's contribution would be about $270 million.

The 9.4-mile Interstate 10 west extension will connect the greater West Valley to the existing Valley Metro Rail system. This project will see light rail trains traveling in the median of Interstate 10, before ultimately crossing to the north side of the freeway to a terminus at the existing Desert Sky Transit Center.
Plan would improve existing highways and streets
Proposition 400 has been foundational to the Valley's highways. After voters passed it in 2004, it helped build out Loop 202 south of Phoenix, Loop 303 in the West Valley and the start of State Route 24 in Queen Creek. Commuters likely have noticed the massive widening project underway on the I-10 Broadway Curve.

If the extension is passed, Loop 101 in the West Valley could see major improvements. The highway would be widened from the 75th Avenue interchange in the northwest Valley to the I-10 interchange in the southwest Valley.

Much of I-17 in the Valley would be reconstructed, from Loop 101 in the north to Dunlap Road in the south. Where the highway curves east, south of downtown, a new carpool lane would be added, too. Farther north, the I-17 would get a new carpool lane between State Route 74 and Anthem Way.

The I-10 would see myriad interchange improvements between Jackrabbit Trail in Buckeye to stack improvements where it intersects with I-17 near downtown.

Loop 202 from Gilbert Road to the U.S. 60 in the East Valley would be widened. Much of the U.S. 60 in the East Valley would be improved, too, including a new HOV lane from Ellsworth to Meridian roads.

The Grand Avenue corridor of U.S. 60 would be upgraded from Sun City West at the northwest end to downtown Phoenix.

The spending plan made possible by Proposition 400 would pay for major street improvements in each city. Upgrades to arterial streets that connect cities, such as Bell, Camelback and Scottsdale roads, would be paid 70% by Proposition 400 and 30% by the corresponding cities.

Proposition 400 also would set aside $200 million for air quality programs and $250 million for safety programs.

It would provide significant support for the Valley's bus transit program, chipping in to assist with operational costs, bus purchases, funding park-and-ride facilities and ADA services.

[N830MH]

Amtrak bring rail back to Phoenix. No real surprise! No doubt about that!

https://ktar.com/story/5504738/amtrak-seeks-federal-funding-to-bring-passenger-rail-back-to-phoenix/?eType=EmailBlastContent&eId=2fcbe7b3-5b7a-40bc-bd69-9231ffc634f4

[ASU Diablo]

The gift that keeps on giving from Douchey. It's not looking good...

Last proposal I read, no funds towards the State Capitol route (what a bummer) and Republicans don't even want to commit 3.5% to go towards LR for basic maintenance. What a joke.

https://azbex.com/legislation-issues/legislature-governor-have-2-days-to-deal-on-prop-400/

[exit2lef]

The gift that keeps on giving from Douchey. It's not looking good...

Last proposal I read, no funds towards the State Capitol route (what a bummer) and Republicans don't even want to commit 3.5% to go towards LR for basic maintenance. What a joke.

https://azbex.com/legislation-issues/legislature-governor-have-2-days-to-deal-on-prop-400/

That article is already out of date. Last night, the legislature passed an awful version of a Proposition 400 extension that zeroed out all light rail funding, prohibited the planned extension to the capitol, and added all sorts of culture war nonsense. Governor Hobbs has already said she'll veto it. She's wise to do so, but that still means Proposition 400 will soon expire with no extension in sight.

I remember last year when Ducey vetoed a good version of the Propositon 400 extension and some forum members said it was no big deal and we had plenty of time to try again. Unfortunately, that optimism was based on an assumption of a reasonable majority in the legislature, something we don't have. Ducey wanted to be seen as a pro-business governor, but this sorry mess only hurts our business climate.

[ASU Diablo]

I remember last year when Ducey vetoed a good version of the Propositon 400 extension and some forum members said it was no big deal and we had plenty of time to try again. Unfortunately, that optimism was based on an assumption of a reasonable majority in the legislature, something we don't have. Ducey wanted to be seen as a pro-business governor, but this sorry mess only hurts our business climate.

:yeahthat:

[MiEncanto]

I happened to be able to watch the debate yesterday on the floor (you can do it online).

As I read the fine print, the light rail would be a separate question for .07 cents of the 50 cents so it wasn't killed off entirely.

Lawmakers REALLY don't like the loop around the capitol because the State government buildings are all empty now, the presence of the Zone makes them think it'll be a homeless circulator, and also it cuts off all the parking lots to the Capitol itself. They view it as a finger in their eye.

It felt like a show cuz the Republicans seemed to know Hobbs would veto it. I'm thinking it's just a volley over the net. She'll veto and they'll have to negotiate more. I don't think the 40% for public transit is going to fly so she'll have to move from her position.

I still think it gets done eventually.

[exit2lef]

I happened to be able to watch the debate yesterday on the floor (you can do it online).

As I read the fine print, the light rail would be a separate question for .07 cents of the 50 cents so it wasn't killed off entirely.

Lawmakers REALLY don't like the loop around the capitol because the State government buildings are all empty now, the presence of the Zone makes them think it'll be a homeless circulator, and also it cuts off all the parking lots to the Capitol itself. They view it as a finger in their eye.

It felt like a show cuz the Republicans seemed to know Hobbs would veto it. I'm thinking it's just a volley over the net. She'll veto and they'll have to negotiate more. I don't think the 40% for public transit is going to fly so she'll have to move from her position.

I still think it gets done eventually.

Separating light rail from the rest of the plan would have complicated compliance with federal air quality standards. The feds want to see a coordinated, multimodal approach. While there are legitimate issues with the proximity to the Zone, that area is now being cleared. Regardless, the seat of state government in the nation's most populous state capital should be served by high capacity transit. Vagrancy is no excuse for limiting access to state government, access to the legislators' precious parking would be preserved, and the line to the capitol has been planned for years. It's suspiciously convenient that legislators have raised these issues just as the tax is up for renewal.

In light of these shady tactics and dubious arguments, I'm skeptical of any deal being reached with the legislature, which is being controlled by a handful of extremists in the Freedom Caucus. Instead, there may have to be either coordinated referenda in cities and towns or a statewide initiative to free Maricopa County from the unfair, onerous burden of having to have its referenda precleared by the state legislature. No matter what the eventual outcome, Ducey's legacy is eternally tarnished for putting us into this mess.

[Obadno]

I happened to be able to watch the debate yesterday on the floor (you can do it online).

As I read the fine print, the light rail would be a separate question for .07 cents of the 50 cents so it wasn't killed off entirely.

Lawmakers REALLY don't like the loop around the capitol because the State government buildings are all empty now, the presence of the Zone makes them think it'll be a homeless circulator, and also it cuts off all the parking lots to the Capitol itself. They view it as a finger in their eye.

It felt like a show cuz the Republicans seemed to know Hobbs would veto it. I'm thinking it's just a volley over the net. She'll veto and they'll have to negotiate more. I don't think the 40% for public transit is going to fly so she'll have to move from her position.

I still think it gets done eventually.

Maybe they should bring employees back to the office buildings we pay for

[exit2lef]

Maybe they should bring employees back to the office buildings we pay for

I'd completely agree with that.

[MiEncanto]

Maybe they should bring employees back to the office buildings we pay for

lol the buildings are gone

Not quite but they've demod like 4 large old buildings in the last year. If you haven't been down to the Capitol area in a while, you should. It's a ghost town. The state leaned into WFH hard during covid and isn't going back from what I hear.

You couldn't bring all the employees back if you tried. My buddy who is a manager in state government tells me they have way better results with all the wfh and if they tried to go back, a bunch of em would quit and find another wfh job. If they aren't client facing, they are largely remote.

[PyroD]

lol the buildings are gone

Not quite but they've demod like 4 large old buildings in the last year. If you haven't been down to the Capitol area in a while, you should. It's a ghost town. The state leaned into WFH hard during covid and isn't going back from what I hear.

You couldn't bring all the employees back if you tried. My buddy who is a manager in state government tells me they have way better results with all the wfh and if they tried to go back, a bunch of em would quit and find another wfh job. If they aren't client facing, they are largely remote.

It would be nice if they opened up that land for development then. Public, private or both

[exit2lef]

With vacant space and land around the capitol, there's an opportunity to consolidate far-flung state offices. The Attorney General's office, for example, rents space in Midtown. Game & Fish is way up in north Phoenix. There might be opportunity to centralize some agencies that were previously dispersed.

[MiEncanto]

With vacant space and land around the capitol, there's an opportunity to consolidate far-flung state offices. The Attorney General's office, for example, rents space in Midtown. Game & Fish is way up in north Phoenix. There might be opportunity to centralize some agencies that were previously dispersed.

They've done that. I think they've given up almost all the leased office space. Several buildings consolidated. Many state agencies need to be spread out for client facing services. But the state is way ahead on this.

[CrestedSaguaro]

lol the buildings are gone

Not quite but they've demod like 4 large old buildings in the last year. If you haven't been down to the Capitol area in a while, you should. It's a ghost town. The state leaned into WFH hard during covid and isn't going back from what I hear.

You couldn't bring all the employees back if you tried. My buddy who is a manager in state government tells me they have way better results with all the wfh and if they tried to go back, a bunch of em would quit and find another wfh job. If they aren't client facing, they are largely remote.

Lol, they aren't going to quit. I work for the state. If they quit, they will lose all their state retirement benefits and state-matched retirement contributions (unless they were employed before 2011).

The few that will quit aren't serious enough about their retirement and probably should move along anyway and let the positions get filled with new employes that want to build a secure retirement.

[MiEncanto]

Lol, they aren't going to quit. I work for the state. If they quit, they will lose all their state retirement benefits and state-matched retirement contributions (unless they were employed before 2011).

The few that will quit aren't serious enough about their retirement and probably should move along anyway and let the positions get filled with new employes that want to build a secure retirement.

Ha, there's no doubt they won't quit until they find another ASRS job that gives them a remote option, of which there are many!

But, alas, ADOA has consolidated a ton of the space and they physically can't bring them all back anyways because they don't have room. It's coworking space now for many agencies. I have a friend at ADOA who was explaining how committed it is. Unless Hobbs wants to spend a ton of money, they're not going back to in person for many state employees.

Perhaps taking down all those old buildings opens up opportunities for new development, but who is going to blink first. Would you develop west of 7th Ave? 15th Ave? I wouldn't.

[TJPHXskyscraperfan]

It’s pretty sad that we don’t have a better looking mall area, being the biggest capital in the country.

[PyroD]

It’s pretty sad that we don’t have a better looking mall area, being the biggest capital in the country.

CityNerd actually ranked us as the worst state capitol in the US in terms of land use.

https://youtu.be/07Bw4xRSW3Y

[ChaseM]

I found this Arizona Government Mall Plan from 2020, looks like they plan to demolish the current awful brutalist executive tower along with the the legislative buildings on both sides and replace it with a new campus. (Page 77)

https://imlive.s3.amazonaws.com/Arizona/ID10170762096853833784688912100934412290/AZ_Govt_Mall_Master_Plan_FEB_2020.pdf

[Obadno]

It would be nice if they opened up that land for development then. Public, private or both

I’ve thought for quite a while the capital mall area and grand ave triangle/south of grand to 19th will be primed for growth and development in the future but I think that is still a while off.

Maybe in 10-15 years you’ll start seeing major redevelopment and new construction west of 7th ave in a big way once downtown core is built out

I don’t see much going on south of Lincoln other than along the light rail central corridor for a long long long time if ever

[Obadno]

I found this Arizona Government Mall Plan from 2020, looks like they plan to demolish the current awful brutalist executive tower and replace it with a new campus. (Page 77)

https://imlive.s3.amazonaws.com/Arizona/ID10170762096853833784688912100934412290/AZ_Govt_Mall_Master_Plan_FEB_2020.pdf

I support the destruction of any brutalist building. It’s like a design meant to crush the human spirit :yuck:

[MiEncanto]

I think many support the idea of a better looking capitol district, but there are several issues. First that design proposal was a dream of the prior ADOA director and they're under new management, so that's not worth the paper it's written on.

I doubt most elected officials want to put their political career on the line to spend a billion dollars to give themselves nicer digs. The public wont even give lawmakers a raise beyond their $24k salary- that fails every time at the ballot. I doubt the public wants to spend a bunch of money on their facilities. Maybe some like us would support it but the public more broadly? Seems risky. Hell a few years ago the House Speaker was getting hellacious news cycles for suggesting they pay to put a gym in the basement with showers. The horror!

My work takes me down there with some frequency and it would be so much nicer if we had a Capitol we could be proud of.

I will say this master plan is not much more sophisticated than a Sim City effort I could have done in junior high. There is no mention of the real challenges there like the HSC- human services campus. That's not going anywhere because who would take them? Doesn't mention the difficulty in the state seizing via ED all the private property in the areas it has planned for other public things; that stuff gets nasty.

[N830MH]

Hi all,

Yesterday, I rode on a new light rail car and it's so beautiful. I am on the way to Diamondbacks game yesterday. New purple seats and I did see new interior. They have more space, more room, and else. Much better than the old light rail car. That was long time ago. I was on the inauguration day. Here's a picture.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52985941477_2469c4e072_b.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52986542566_e243af5b03_b.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52985941412_c30c6bba10_b.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52986682654_f6cc4caaca_b.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52986683424_2787921b8f_b.jpg

Enjoy!

[ASU Diablo]

Posting in this thread as it’s related.

Wow never thought the City would get rid of parking minimums. In some cases, it may be even close to zero.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2023/07/18/phoenix-considers-building-homes-reducing-parking-spaces-in-public-transit-push/70415893007/

Phoenix plans to sharply reduce the minimum number of parking spaces it requires apartment developers to build in an effort to improve housing affordability and the environment. The most significant changes would apply to apartments in downtown and midtown near light rail.

Residents, who are among the first to weigh in on the policy, by and large oppose the change. But their opposition is likely not a barometer for the ultimate decision-makers: Phoenix City Council.

Current city code mandates the minimum number of parking spaces multifamily residential complexes must have. Phoenix's proposed changes would lower that bottom floor across the city but lower it even further for affordable housing complexes and developments in the Gateway, Eastlake-Garfield, Midtown, Uptown and Solano neighborhoods, which surround light rail.

Under the new law, a 100-unit apartment complex in one of those five communities near light rail could see the requirement lower from 113 required spaces to 50 spaces. If it's an affordable complex in one of those communities, the parking quota would, in most cases, fall to zero.

A 100-unit complex elsewhere in the city would go from 150 spaces to 125 spaces. If it's an affordable complex but not near light rail, it would go from 150 required spaces to 63.

[exit2lef]

Posting in this thread as it’s related.

Wow never thought the City would get rid of parking minimums. In some cases, it may be even close to zero.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2023/07/18/phoenix-considers-building-homes-reducing-parking-spaces-in-public-transit-push/70415893007/

Long overdue. I'm so happy to hear this is in the works, and I hope the city perseveres even if there is backlash.

[ASU Diablo]

Long overdue. I'm so happy to hear this is in the works, and I hope the city perseveres even if there is backlash.

Agreed. You have been pushing this for quite some time...

[Dadedos]

Valley Metro has narrowed down their two preliminary routes for high-capacity transit in West Phoenix. The final transit type will be decided later this year.

Found here: https://vulcan-production.nyc3.cdn.digitaloceanspaces.com/projects/downloads/west-phoenix-high-capacity-transit-alternatives-analysis/20230627-wphx-q3-factsheet_eng.pdf

Going along Indian School would make sense, given that ADOT is planning to reconstruct the Indian School/35th/Grand Ave Interchange, which would allow for transit to go over the railroad tracks near there.

[exit2lef]

Valley Metro has narrowed down their two preliminary routes for high-capacity transit in West Phoenix. The final transit type will be decided later this year.

Found here: https://vulcan-production.nyc3.cdn.digitaloceanspaces.com/projects/downloads/west-phoenix-high-capacity-transit-alternatives-analysis/20230627-wphx-q3-factsheet_eng.pdf

Going along Indian School would make sense, given that ADOT is planning to reconstruct the Indian School/35th/Grand Ave Interchange, which would allow for transit to go over the railroad tracks near there.

Interesting that there is no longer any intent to serve Grand Canyon University. The focus seems to be entirely on Maryvale. In a way, it makese sense to bring high capacity tranist to the areas where the most people may need it, but I can't think of many major destinations along either Indian School or Thomas in that area.

[muertecaza]

Interesting that there is no longer any intent to serve Grand Canyon University. The focus seems to be entirely on Maryvale. In a way, it makese sense to bring high capacity tranist to the areas where the most people may need it, but I can't think of many major destinations along either Indian School or Thomas in that area.

Yeah, seems like BRT is the long term plan for GCU now that they've identified 35th Ave as a BRT corridor.

[exit2lef]

Yeah, seems like BRT is the long term plan for GCU now that they've identified 35th Ave as a BRT corridor.

The plans for high capacity on the west side seem kind of messy right now, with multiple potential BRT and light rail corridors all being proposed at the same time. If there's no resolution to the impasse over extending Proposition 400, none of them may happen at all.

[combusean]

It feels like they make these corridors up as they go along. Thomas was a designated corridor for a long time, now having a route that doglegs is just dumb. Thomas, Indian School, and Camelback are three of the busiest corridors, it would make sense to do improvements on all three without stupidly combining them.

[exit2lef]

It feels like they make these corridors up as they go along. Thomas was a designated corridor for a long time, now having a route that doglegs is just dumb. Thomas, Indian School, and Camelback are three of the busiest corridors, it would make sense to do improvements on all three without stupidly combining them.

It seems like the desire is to make Desert Sky Mall the western terminus, so all routes must eventually lead to Thomas Road.

[combusean]

Desert Sky Mall makes an excellent terminus, and there's already a bus that serves it--the 29 Thomas route. People are already taking that from Central and Thomas light rail, so... upgrade the route people are taking without introducing new service.

[azsunsurfer]

Is Desert Sky the next mall to get an overhaul similar to all the other malls across the Valley right now? I know the demographics are not as strong but maybe it's a good candidate for high density subsided housing?

[exit2lef]

Is Desert Sky the next mall to get an overhaul similar to all the other malls across the Valley right now? I know the demographics are not as strong but maybe it's a good candidate for high density subsided housing?

It's mostly leased but sometimes in a non-traditonal way for a mall. Its clientele is primarly Hispanic, and one of the old department store spaces has been transformed ito something called Mercado De Los Cielos, which now houses a cluster of small businesses operating in stalls. I'm skeptical about using any mall as a transit terminus, but at least Desert Sky seems to be thriving in its own way.

[az_daniel]

whether desert sky continues to exist in its current state, as something else, or at all, there is plenty of available land in the area to accommodate loads of TOD and business growth as it would be *the* primary southwest valley transit center. with the amphitheater nearby as well there is a destination venue and hopefully there would be some sort of connection between the venue and wherever the terminus ultimately lands.

[N830MH]

Desert Sky Mall makes an excellent terminus, and there's already a bus that serves it--the 29 Thomas route. People are already taking that from Central and Thomas light rail, so... upgrade the route people are taking without introducing new service.

Yes sir, sure is! I remember where former Green Line used to be and now, they became route 29.

[ASU Diablo]

A gutted extension to Prop 400 will make its way to the ballot on Nov 2024.

All LR funding and expansion got nixed minus 3.5% devoted to maintenance. Also, language in the bill for Phoenix to kill the Capitol loop. WTF? Back to the drawing board I guess to figure out how get the LR extended to the West Valley and identify other sources of funding.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/politics/legislature/2023/07/31/maricopa-county-voters-to-decide-on-extending-half-cent-transportation-sales-tax/70499976007/

The most contentious bill of the legislative season won lopsided support on Monday as the Legislature authorized Maricopa County to call a transportation tax election next year.

The bill allows the county to ask its voters if they want to extend a half-cent sales tax to pay for a mix of transportation projects over the next 20 years. Senate Bill 1102 passed the House and Senate with bipartisan votes, following major changes made during negotiations between Gov. Katie Hobbs and GOP legislative leaders.

Of the estimated $14.9 billion projected to be raised by the tax, 40.5% would go to freeway projects, 37% to transit and 22.5% to arterial streets and intersection improvements.

The plan will help pay for two new Valley freeways: State Route 30, which will parallel congested Interstate 10 in the west Valley, and State Route 24 in the far southeast Valley, among other road projects. It also will pay for improvements to arterial streets throughout the Valley.

Lawmakers also demanded, and won, an agreement that Phoenix would scrap plans for a light rail extension around the state Capitol complex even though that wasn't part of the bill.

House Speaker Ben Toma, R-Glendale, said the loop would have required lawmakers to drive over the rail tracks not once, but twice, as it would have passed the parking lots of both the House and the Senate.

“I saw it as a personal insult," he said.