Metro Phoenix Transit/Transportation Developments

[Don B.]

The Trainman Cometh.

ahFFqPsmccU

--don

[Sekkle]

I don’t think this has been posted, so hopefully I’m not duplicating info that’s already on here. A new round of public meetings is about to begin for the Tempe South LRT extension. There are currently 6 alternatives being studied, three of which are BRT. LRT is no longer under consideration in the UPRR corridor, and McClintock has apparently been eliminated from consideration for any mode.

Here’s an image from the latest Factsheet (http://www.valleymetro.org/images/uploads/lightrail_publications/Tempe-South-Factsht.pdf)…
http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj223/Brizzle78/ca321c38.jpg

(MS = Modern Streetcar, CR = Commuter Rail)

The light rail and streetcar options probably won’t look too favorable in these meetings since they are only shown extending to Baseline, whereas the BRT options all extend south of Chandler Blvd. That’s unfortunate, I think, since anti-rail people can immediately point to that and say “see how much more we could get if we just make it a bus.”

[HooverDam]

^Im not sure which of those options I like. It seems to me only LRT and MS would encourage much infill and redevelopment around them. BRT never seems to spawn that and I'd imagine commuter rail is too noisy. I suppose my preference would be for LRT, but Im not sure south Tempe has the requisite density to support it, they'd probably have to upzone a lot of stuff.

[glynnjamin]

I personally like the commuter rail option. the brilliance of it is that it would open up the prospect of a Tucson - Phoenix route that would bring you up from Tucson and drop you at the light rail station. You could conceivably come up from Tucson to catch a baseball/basketball game and be home by midnight. It would also allow for people in Tucson to reach the airport without driving/parking which is a big plus. I know that is a long ways off but the light rail already runs in urban areas (except Scottsdale)...it is time for other options that will bring people from the burbs to the lightrail stations.

That being said, it is time for commuter rail south of I-10 to run from Buckeye to Downtown Phoenix. Time for commuter rail to run along Grand from Surprise to Downtown. Time for commuter rail to run up from Tucson as well.

The best way to encourage LRT ridership is to get them to a station without driving more than 5 miles. You can do that by giving people quick, efficient access to the LRT stop through commuter rail.

[HooverDam]

From: http://www.azcentral.com/community/phoenix/articles/2008/11/20/20081120phx-lightrail1121.html

Light-rail construction schedule raises concerns
Northern extension work will take 3 years
27 comments by Betty Reid - Nov. 20, 2008 07:40 AM
The Arizona Republic
North Phoenix residents and business owners expressed dismay this week that it would take three years to complete a 3.2-mile extension of light rail into their area.

The comments were raised at a public hearing at Royal Palm Middle School Tuesday where the city's light-rail staff met with residents about rail's northwest extension. Another meeting was held Wednesday, and there is another scheduled for Thursday night in north-central Phoenix.

The three-year timeline will hurt businesses along the route, said Daniel M. Abrams, an owner of Abrams Realty & Management, which manages two properties on 19th Avenue.

He recommends the city work crews in double shifts to finish the project in 18 months. Eight-hour shifts are not sufficient, Abrams said.

"The longer construction drags out, the less prospective customers are willing to put up with the construction," Abrams said. "The merchants along Camelback and Central raised this issue. This is the biggest complaint among merchants."

Erik Yingling of Sundt Construction, the project manager for the extension, explained that the 20-mile rail starter line, which will open to riders Dec. 27, took four years to complete. He believes double-shift construction work is not appropriate for this area because so much of the route is near homes.

Night shifts and double shifts impact a community, he said. A late shift would start at 3:30 p.m. and end near midnight and construction and noise would be in people's yards, he said.

"That's tough for residents to accept," Yingling said.

The northwest extension's design is 95 percent complete and construction is expected to begin in the spring. It starts just south of Bethany Home Road, connecting with the 20-mile starter light-rail line that runs to Mesa. It will continue north on 19th Avenue to Dunlap Avenue.

It is light rail's first extension and was paid for with city money at a time when the city wasn't in the throes of a sluggish economy. City officials say the project will be completed by 2012.

I can see both sides of the issue here, but if I lived in the area, Id want them working around the clock. Just get it done, its pathetic that they're going to take 3 years to build 3 miles. It would almost be acceptable if they tore up one mile at a time, leaving the other 2 operable, but having a 3 mile mess for 3 years seems like a really lousy solution.

[HX_Guy]

It sounds ridiculous..but someone in the comments section put it in a different way, and it makes sense.

The starter line didn't take 4 years to build 20 miles. It took 4 years to build 5 four mile sections.

It makes sense because it's not as if they built 1 mile and then started the next...it was all done at the same time and still took that long, so it would make sense for it to make a similar amount of time to build this segment. I agree though that they should work another shift though...maybe not until midnight but until 10:00PM and get it done in 2 years vs 3 years.

[Don B.]

^ I guess working fewer hours per shift never occurred to any construction company as a logical option. If labor issues are the crux of the problem, stagger the shifts so that construction is continuous from 8 am to 8 pm, Monday through Saturday.

In other words, start the late shift earlier if you have to get a certain number of hours in, so that everyone is done by 8 pm. If both shifts had to work eight-hour days, then stagger it like this:

8 am - 4 pm
12 noon - 8 pm.

--don

[HX_Guy]

I don't think that would work as the second shift cant' start until the first shift is done.

[CANUC]

First I can’t think of any construction trade that begins work after 6:00am. Nearly all trades begin work no later than the six o’clock hour for obvious reasons. Many, especially those that work outdoors, begin work as early as 4:00am. The only caveat is that because of noise ordinances most heavy equipment can’t be run prior to 6:00 unless a special use permit is issued. The real issue in implementing a second shift has to be the increase in labor cost. The entire labor costs have to be paid over an 18 month period instead of spread out over 3 years. While the 3 year labor costs were taken into account and covered a second shift is almost always paid at a premium over a first shift. It really is no different than having to pay a first shift crew overtime. It is a balancing act you can get it done faster but you will have to pay a premium to do so.

P.S. On an unrelated note: Don, sorry I won’t take your internet connection speed into consideration when posting, cheers:cheers: .

[Don B.]

P.S. On an unrelated note: Don, sorry I won’t take your internet connection speed into consideration when posting, cheers:cheers: .

Non-sequitur? You could at least put the comment in the correlating thread.

But I guess that would be too much to ask here. God forbid if it is something logical.

--don

[CANUC]

:previous: Are you trying to start some shit with me? Self centerd much lately?

[glynnjamin]

getting back to more pressing issues - it is just not reasonable for a couple miles of LRT to take 3 years. I'm sorry but if they can build OCE and the Sheraton and Cronkite and all of that crap in under 3 years, they can lay some track and put up a cable.

I used to work construction (but not big city project-type) and the summers are brutal. If you are gonna work summers, you need to be out there by 4am because you want to be done before 2pm when it really starts to get hot. I think the best thing to do in this situation is to actually do the thing in 1/2mile sections over a few months. I don't know if that is possible because you have to move plumbing and things like that, but if you could simply tear the crap out of one 1/2 mile block for 6 months and then be done with it, the people in that area would only have to deal with it for a short time. Then you move on to the next 1/2mile block, so on. Maybe you can't do that because of the equipment but...oh well. Those people's property values are going to double in 5 years so maybe they should just deal with it.

[HooverDam]

This morning at work was slow, so I got bored and drew this up, a LRT and/or modern streetcar map given more or less unlimited money and it would take probably 50+ years (as a lot of the lines shown would need a lot more time to densify before becoming anywhere close to viable):

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/1972/lrtmaprj1.jpg

[LivingInExile]

^ Great map, would do so much for Phoenix. When you did the Downtown part, you would probably want a higher density of streetcars down there (sort of like Portland, or Geneva), but other than that, great map! :notacrook:

[HX_Guy]

Dumb question...but what exactly is a "modern streetcar"?

[LivingInExile]

I think it's the same thing as an LRT.

LRT = North America. Streetcar/Tram = Europe??? I need some clarification too.

[HooverDam]

Dumb question...but what exactly is a "modern streetcar"?

I suppose I think of it like this:

City bus::neighborhood circulator as Light rail::modern streetcar

Someone smarter than me who knows more can feel free to correct me on that though.

[LivingInExile]

????? :dunce:

[combusean]

The Skoda 16T is a good example of a modern streetcar. usually run in single car configurations of max 120 per trip, I regard it as a direct bus replacement whereas light rail conceivably carries up to 600 at once.

The best part about the streetcar is that you don't have to relocate utilities. Speaking of which, the article and the Metro talking heads are extremely disingenuous by separating the utilities relocation from the rail construction. The utilities relocation took years prior to the actual start of construction and impacts the neighborhood just the same if not more.

The problem with the commuter rail option is that to me it doesnt leave much possibility with connecting to Tucson.

The Kyrene branch and the branch just east of Arizona Ave used to connect to the mainline. The problem with the Kyrene branch is that there's a lot of industrial uses in a winding corridor. Presently, it deadends near Firebird Lake where the Gila people are building everything.

The route coming in east of Arizona Ave/SR-87 deadends near Sacaton Rd and Santan Blvd (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=&jsv=137c&sll=33.120157,-111.734701&sspn=0.005823,0.008969&ie=UTF8&geocode=Fahb-QEdtwRX-Q), 37 miles from downtown Phoenix and 14 miles from the mainline.

The Kyrene Branch deadends a little farther, 17 miles by my calculations.

In a perfect world, we'd have 3 connections to Tucson, one via Queen Creek and Florence on the heavy-trafficed spur from the mainline, one via Tempe/GRIC/Maricopa, and yet a third connecting Chandler, Sun Lakes, and Coolidge.

This map (http://www.azrymuseum.org/Information/Arizona_Railroad_Map_2002.pdf) is quite depressing on the subject. Shows how far we've come. :yuck:

[exit2lef]

Modern streetcar might be thought of as ultralight rail. Basically, it's single car light rail trains that travel in mixed lanes that serve both cars and trains. It's generally considered a good fit for cities large enough to warrant some sort of rail transit but not big enough for multi-car light rail trains in dedicated rights of way. Albuquerque and Tucson are both considering modern streetcar systems, I believe.

[glynnjamin]

taken from: http://www.rtd-fastracks.com/gl_37

http://www.rtd-fastracks.com/images/uploads/gl/streetcar-WEB.jpg
The modern streetcar is an electrified, lower capacity rail car that can easily operate among traffic on city streets. It is typically used in urban areas because it can share lanes of traffic with other vehicles and does not require its own dedicated right of way. This results in fewer property acquisitions. The streetcar provides low-floor loading and unloading, which allows for easy boarding.

[glynnjamin]

back to the commuter rail thing...

So if we are talking about not building any new track (and subsequently no high speed rail) then the only line that goes to/from Tucson would have to run up I-10 from Tucson, Go North at Hwy 87 through Coolidge, up to Magma where it follows Rittenhouse into Higley, Gilbert, and up into Mesa and drop you off at Dobson & Main where you could transfer to the LRT. Is that correct? I'm looking at existing lines that seem to go all the way through and that seems to be the only option.

Of course, that would be expensive to lease those lines.

Does anyone know why we don't have electric buses (with the overhead lines) like the ones in Seattle?

[nickkoto]

3 years for 3 miles is friggin' ridiculous. Hell, break it up into 20 seperate sections for bid and require each of them to be done within 3 months if that's what it takes.

The amount of time between any noticeable progress occurring on certain stretches of Apache during 2006-2007 was obscene. They would just jackhammer a couple lanes of road up one day, create a traffic bottleneck, and then no workers would be seen for several weeks while they worked on some other stretch near the stadium. They need to do better than that.

[NIXPHX77]

the Phx historic neighborhoods coalition may try to use, if possible,
the a.e. england bldg at civic space park along with other groups as one of the festivities centers planned for many of the light rail stops during opening day 12/27.

[glynnjamin]

Hope I'm not late to the ballgame on this info but I just discovered it.
Valley Metro LINK will be running a shuttle service from the Sycamore light rail station in Mesa all the way to Superstition Springs Mall. That's great news for people in the EV and for those of us who visit the EV frequently.


http://www.valleymetro.org/link/maps_and_schedules/maps/

[Vicelord John]

there is an article in the republic today about what people think of the train. Some of my favorite quotes were in there.

One lady said she didn't know where the train was going when she drove near it....... really? you can't figure out where a train is going?

Some guy who lives at main and extension said the train is going to bring criminals to his neighborhood....... I think the train is going to take criminals FROM your hood dude.

And one person mentioned they think those who are benefitting from higher property values because of the train should pay more...... apparently this person has never heard of value based property taxes.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2008/11/26/20081126lrail-main1126.html

[Vicelord John]

those of us who visit the EV frequently.


now I have to start questioning your logic....:yuck:

[glynnjamin]

now I have to start questioning your logic....:yuck:

Sorry, the wife's family lives in Higley...trust me, I never went out there before I met her.

[PhxPavilion]

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2008/11/26/20081126lrail-main1126.html

Advancements may have been made but wisdom remains a distant idea.

[HX_Guy]

They have given most of the stations names and I love it! :d

Why? Because it gives the whole system...the whole city...more of a city feel, saying to someone "Take the train to the Melrose District station" just has a nice ring to it.

http://www.azcentral.com/i/2/6/6/PHP492DEC17AE662.jpg

http://www.azcentral.com/community/phoenix/articles/2008/11/28/20081128phx-lrail-names1129.html

[Azndragon837]

^Just saw the article too! Too bad the station that I will be using the most (19th Avenue & Camelback) won't have a name (yet). Any ideas? There's not much around that area in terms of a significant landmark (although Christown is up the street).

-Andrew

[NIXPHX77]

I love it, too. But, i think 2 of the names are lame:
Cultural district and Arts district.

also, i'd prefer the "ASU Tempe" station called "ASU Main" (or Main Campus.)
i wonder if each station also lists what city you are in - i think
that would be good.

perhaps we can all, as Azndragon suggests, come up with some ideas for names for the other stations and submit them.

[Vicelord John]

Sweet, I live in Eastlake Park!

yaaaaaaaaaaaaaay. Automatically lump me in with all the dirty scum that hangs out by that park.

Mark my fucking words, within 1 year of the train being open, there is going to be such a stigma about the "eastlake stop." And when I go to sell my luxury condo that I am going to want big bucks for and have to tell people the closest stop is the "eastlake stop," they are going to shit.

[NIXPHX77]

aren't you closer to the Convention center/Ballpark/arena stop?

[Vicelord John]

nope. its 4 blocks to 12th street and 5 blocks to 3rd street

[Don B.]

^ Well, I'd guide people to the better stop, even if they have to walk an extra block. The listing should read:

Only 5 blocks to the Convention Center/Ballpark/Arena stop on the Metro!

...instead of...

Only 4 blocks to the Eastlake Park ghetto stop on the Metro! Please bring your body armor and Glock when using this stop, as Seller cannot be responsible for any injury or bodily harm that may befall you as a result. Your mileage may vary.

--don

[Vicelord John]

:haha:

[arkhitektor]

I just returned from a trip through the Phoenix area for Thanksgiving. Your nifty spy cameras all over the place create a nice "police state" atmosphere. I'll be certain to avoid Arizona on future trips. Does the public in AZ support these things?

[Vicelord John]

Does the public in AZ support these things?

Jesus Christ, do people think about what they are asking?

yes, the public in Arizona supports getting photo radar tickets driving down the highway. When the gov't asked if we wanted to get our pictures taken and have 24/7 cameras watching us, we said YES WE DO!

:whatthefuck:

[HX_Guy]

Hahaha...nice reply Vicelord John.

Of course we don't support them, we didn't even have a chance to vote on them, and of course we didn't because who in their right mind would vote yes for them? The thing is...I guess there isn't much argument against them. I mean, what are you going to say? "Damn it, we shouldn't get our picture taken because we were speeding and I should be able to get away with it!" A lot of people feel that there should be a live cop there instead of a camera, but I have a feeling they use that as an excuse because if there were 100 live cops at every place there is a camera (say 5 cops per location to catch multiple speeders like the cameras do) the people would then complain about that. In the end I guess you just have to slow down to 9 MPH or less over the limit (they give you some leeway).

[Classical in Phoenix]

I think arkhitektor is right. We, the citizens of AZ, should be more aggresive when fighting big brother....like Utah!

[arkhitektor]

I think arkhitektor is right. We, the citizens of AZ, should be more aggresive when fighting big brother....like Utah!
I probably could have phrased that better, I was just wondering what people though of them becuase my brother-in-law who lives their seemed to like them and we heard some talk radio guy singing their praises.

Also, do they take pictures of the front of the car or the rear? Because I noticed a lot of cars that only had plates on the rear.
I was driving a rental car, hopefully they'll not be able to track me down. (Yeah, right)

[HX_Guy]

They take a picture of both the front and the rear of the car. The front in order to have a picture of the driver (which you receive in the mail, so hopefully you were smiling ;) ) and also of the rear for the license plate. Was the car rented in your name? Either way you may be ok if you were from out of state and had a rental, I don't know if they go far into finding out who the driver was.

[Vicelord John]

We, the citizens of AZ, should be more aggresive when fighting big brother....like Utah!

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAAHHHHAHAHA

[glynnjamin]

Honestly, the biggest argument against the cameras - and in favor of actual police patrols - is that "speeding" is never really defined in the ARS. From my understanding of the law, you can get a speeding ticket for going 55 in a 55 zone if everyone else is going 65. You are impeding traffic flow. Police are there to make a determination between "the letter of the law" and the "intent of the law" and, quite frankly, there are times when it is reasonable and prudent to speed.

Just yesterday, driving on the I-10, I had to speed up to avoid being hit by some idiot not checking their blind spot. It happened right around one of the cameras and I'd be pissed if, for one second, I was speeding, but the other 20 minutes of my trip I was not and I got a ticket for the one.

I would hope that our ballot in two years will feature some sort of restriction on who can/cannot give speeding tickets. Something to amend the definition of speeding to state that an officer must observe the vehicle traveling at a dangerous speed considering the conditions and traffic.

[NIXPHX77]

nope. its 4 blocks to 12th street and 5 blocks to 3rd street
oh, OK- i thought you were on 7th st. i guess Don has the right strategy there.

saw the LR on the Apache Bl bridge over the 101 the other day for the first time.
also, it's really cool when it rises up along the 202 south of Wash. St.
really looking forward to seeing it on the Town Lake bridge, esp at night.

[Vicelord John]

oh, OK- i thought you were on 7th st. i guess Don has the right strategy there.

saw the LR on the Apache Bl bridge over the 101 the other day for the first time.
also, it's really cool when it rises up along the 202 south of Wash. St.
really looking forward to seeing it on the Town Lake bridge, esp at night.

my address is 7th street but i'm at the back of my complex making me between 8th and 9th

[HooverDam]

and of course we didn't because who in their right mind would vote yes for them?

I probably would've! :P As much as they do seem creepy and Big Brotherish, in the long run isn't it much better than having some cop wasting his time and the gas of his car idling while he just sits on the side of the road with a radar gun? Isn't it better to replace that menial job with a robot (I find if you call the cameras 'robots' you'll feel a lot better about it) and let the cop like arrest murderers and stuff? Plus once you memorize where the cameras are you can speed like a banshee between them.

[PhxPavilion]

I'm all for the cameras at intersections (as long as they don't get you in a yellow light) but I can't stand the freeway cameras. They're only there because they make the city money.

[glynnjamin]

I probably would've! :P As much as they do seem creepy and Big Brotherish, in the long run isn't it much better than having some cop wasting his time and the gas of his car idling while he just sits on the side of the road with a radar gun? Isn't it better to replace that menial job with a robot (I find if you call the cameras 'robots' you'll feel a lot better about it) and let the cop like arrest murderers and stuff? Plus once you memorize where the cameras are you can speed like a banshee between them.

No offense but that is the inane argument that people rely on all of the time to support this thing but it doesn't speak to the facts. The fact is, city police cannot pull you over on the highway. Highway police cannot pull you over in the city. There are separate jurisdictions. It is just like seeing a Mesa cop in Tempe...go ahead and speed right past him because he can't do anything except call you in to a Tempe officer...at least until you get into Mesa.

Highway Patrol Officers are primarily there to do three things - help you out if you are stuck/in an accident, catch speeders, look for criminals (ie. Amber Alerts, illegals, stolen cars). They really can't do much to prevent a murder happening at MetroCenter or anything. Something like 80% of criminals (people with warrants, drugs, guns, kidnapped children, etc) are caught during routine traffic stops simply because they "look suspicious." Taking the patrol cars off of the street in favor of machines does little to catch those people.

On top of that, speed cameras cannot stop a person from speeding. The fact that you can be fined for speeding three times in three miles raises serious issues of double indemnity (which will eventually be covered by the courts) but it is dramatically different than the event where an officer would pull the person over. An individual driving 90mph on the freeway should probably be removed from the road immediately but the cameras cannot do that. That same individual could also be inebriated; another instance where he should be taken off the road. Only an officer can prevent a serious accident from occurring in these instances. The cameras just sit and snap photos while car crashes happen.

[HooverDam]

More on the LRT opening parties and such, specifically in Tempe:

Tempe begins light-rail service with parties
by Dianna M. Náñez - Dec. 1, 2008 11:17 AM
The Arizona Republic
Tempe will kick off the Dec. 27 grand opening of light rail with five parties, marking the first time the public can start hopping on the trains at any one of the Valley's 28 stations along the 20-mile line.

Celebrations are also planned in Mesa and Phoenix.

For the budget-wise consumer, the Tempe festivities like fireworks, games, Segway rides, bands and inflatable bouncers will all be free. Corporate sponsors are picking up the tab. The trains are also free - at least through the end of 2008.

In anticipation of crowds during the grand opening, passengers who do not want to wait for a return ride on the train can hop on free shuttles waiting at stations along the rail.

The buzz about the urban alternative to buses was sounded this past week at a taping of Let's Talk Tempe, a Tempe 11 Cox cable program with a live audience highlighting Tempe topics.

Mayor Hugh Hallman hosts the show and used the time to tout Tempe's hand in bringing light rail to Arizona. The Valley has worked toward a modern regional public transportation, he said, for more than a decade. Hallman boasted that Tempe was the first of the three cities where light rail will travel to pass a dedicated transportation sales tax. Tempe voters passed the half-cent sales tax in 1996 to expand bus service and explore future transit options such as light rail.

Jyme Sue McLaren, Tempe deputy Public Works manager, told the audience that Tempe "carried the water" for federal government's initial involvement in light rail. Federal funding eventually covered about $587 million of the $1.4 billion project. Tempe and Phoenix sales taxes, as well as Mesa general funds, covered the majority of the remaining costs.

Hallman thanked Mesa and Phoenix for agreeing to keep the trains running free during two major Tempe events, the Insight Bowl and New Year's Eve Block Party, both Dec. 31. The trains will operate extended hours to get the Valley's late-night partiers home on New Year's.

The audience had questions about and praise for light rail.

Allen Skinner asked how many light rail trains will operate. The answer - 50 - drew an "Oh, wow!" from Skinner.

Paul Bennewitz wanted to know the trains' operating frequency and hours. McLaren said the trains will run on Dec. 27 from 10 a.m. to 8 p.m.The following day, trains will run 10 a.m. to 6 p.m. and on Dec. 29 will begin operating regular hours, 5 a.m. to midnight. On weekdays for most of the day they will arrive at stations about every 10 minutes. On weekends, the trains run less frequently but still stop at stations as often as every 20 minutes.

"From where to where do they go?" asked Maria Bennewitz.

McLaren told her she could travel from about 19th Avenue and Bethany Home Road, east through Central Phoenix and Tempe to near Dobson Road and Main Street in Mesa.

[Vicelord John]

Can't wait to PARTY!!

This will be a good birthday. I can go out NYE (birthday) and get wrecked and not worry about paying twice for a taxi.... yaaaaaay

[PHX31]

I cannot believe it is finally almost about to open. We're in the T-minus less than a month count down. The first passage of the vote back in 2000 seems so long ago it's like another lifetime to me. Even when I worked as an inspector on Line Section 5 in 2005 seems so long ago to me. It's FINALLY almost here.

ps. if you value your health, don't ride on the train through line section 5 (tempe-mesa portion) j/k.

[alexjon]

Yessssss, now I can ride light rail over to visit my mom

[Sekkle]

Awesome! I'll actually be back in town for a few days starting on the 27th. It's like it was meant to be. :D

[Classical in Phoenix]

Awesome! I'll actually be back in town for a few days starting on the 27th. It's like it was meant to be. :D

What are the lightrail hours of operation in Portland?

[Sekkle]

^ Trains start running by my house around 4:00 or 4:30 am. Service ends around 2:00am, but that's about when the last train reaches the last stop, so if you want to leave downtown Portland, you have to be on it by about 1:00am.

[glynnjamin]

^But all of that being said, Portland is the trashiest, shittiest city in the lower 48 (I saved the true number 1 spot for Wasalia, AK). Not charging sales tax has ruined the educational system and allowed for the logging industry to rape our national resources. On top of that, the state of Oregon breeds some of the most racist individuals this side of Nazi Germany. Then, to add to it, they force workers to stand and inhale cancerous gas fumes for minimum wage and then turn around and deny them health coverage when they get sick.

Fuck Portland.

**former Seattlite**

[HooverDam]

^But all of that being said, Portland is the trashiest, shittiest city in the lower 48 (I saved the true number 1 spot for Wisalia, AK).

Im confused as to why Wisalia (is the same as Wasalia?) is the trashiest place in the lower 48.

[Sekkle]

^But all of that being said, Portland is the trashiest, shittiest city in the lower 48 (I saved the true number 1 spot for Wisalia, AK). Not charging sales tax has ruined the educational system and allowed for the logging industry to rape our national resources. On top of that, the state of Oregon breeds some of the most racist individuals this side of Nazi Germany. Then, to add to it, they force workers to stand and inhale cancerous gas fumes for minimum wage and then turn around and deny them health coverage when they get sick.

Fuck Portland.

**former Seattlite**

Whoa, buddy. Calm down. All I did was gave some begin/end times for light rail service. Portland is the trashiest, shittiest city in the lower 48? What the f*ck?

[NIXPHX77]

Im confused as to why Wisalia (is the same as Wasalia?) is the trashiest place in the lower 48.

Isn't it Wasilla?!

saw a LR train going north on Central just south of Osborn tonight. 1st time i've driven by one at night. very cool; can't wait for 12/27! i'll be there (somewhere on the line.)

[glynnjamin]

Im confused as to why Wisalia (is the same as Wasalia?) is the trashiest place in the lower 48.

I never said Wasilia/Wisalia/Wasilla (however you spell it) was the trashiest place in the lower 48...i said Portland is the trashiest place in the lower 48 - Wasilla is the trashiest place overall.

As to why? Because of the insane hillbilly wanna-be political trash that comes out of there. They have some of the highest instances of rape, incest, and drug abuse in the country. They use religion to dictate policies. That's another discussion for another day though.

[Sekkle]

You should try citing sources to back up your claims (either about Portland or Wasilla). Otherwise, people might find it hard to take you seriously when you can’t even spell the name of the city you’re criticizing.

[KEVINphx]

I never said Wasilia/Wisalia/Wasilla (however you spell it) was the trashiest place in the lower 48...i said Portland is the trashiest place in the lower 48 - Wasilla is the trashiest place overall.

As to why? Because of the insane hillbilly wanna-be political trash that comes out of there. They have some of the highest instances of rape, incest, and drug abuse in the country. They use religion to dictate policies. That's another discussion for another day though.

Many might say the same of Phoenix, ESPECIALLY considering it is in the top five largest US cities!

Sounds more like you have a personal beef with Portland. Nearly everyone I know who has lived in/been to Portland says just the opposite.

[glynnjamin]

Sources:

Wasilla's high rape numbers - http://www.clrsearch.com/RSS/Demographics/AK/Wasilla/Crime_Statistics
Wasilla's drug problem - http://www.juneauempire.com/stories/030805/sta_20050308002.shtml
Wasilla's child abuse numbers - hss.state.ak.us/ocs/ChildrensTrust/pdf/CRK_PDF_Kit/Child%20Abuse%20in%20Alaska.pdf

So there you go. Wasilla rates at a 165 compared to a national average of 100 when it comes to rape occurrence. Wasilla clearly has a drug problem with meth being the favored drug. That drug abuse leads to all kinds of ridiculous child abuse numbers.

And sue me if I can't spell the name of a ass-backwards town no one ever heard of before Sarah Palin.

As far as Portland goes
Porland - 54 rapes per 100,000 people
National - 33.1 rapes per 100,000 people
Portland - 4063 larceny/theft per 100,000 people
National - 2601 larceny/theft per 100,000 people

If you want to compare Phoenix and Portland, here you go http://portlandor.areaconnect.com/crime/compare.htm?c1=Portland&s1=OR&c2=Phoenix&s2=AZ Sure, Phoenix is a dangerous place, but we are significantly larger and have to deal with illegals.

In 2007, Portland had 20 race-related hate crimes reported for a population of about 500,000.
In 2007, Phoenix had 38 race-related hate crimes reported for a population of about 1,500,000.
A third of the population but only half of the instances. Way to go Portland.

Remembering the difference in population - Phoenix being three times the size of Portland...
Sexual Orientation: Portland - 22 / Phoenix - 20
Religion: Portland - 11 / Phoenix - 9
Ethnicity: Portland - 9 / Phoenix - 13

Almost identical numbers but we have ONE MILLION more people.
Those stats are all from FBI.GOV, btw.

As far as the logging goes - try watching the movie Clear Cut: The Story of Philomath, Oregon. http://www.clearcutmovie.com/ It will give you a good idea of how they have raped the oldest living things from this earth.

Finally - you want some statistics about how bad Oregon's public education system is: http://www.oregoncatalyst.com/index.php?/archives/1117-Oregon-Education-Among-Very-Worst-in-the-Nation.html

Some highlights -
1. Oregon is the worst state in the nation for Kindergarten enrollment (rank 50).
2. Oregon is the worst state in the nation for adults in the labor force working full time and year-round, a measurement of the outcome of the education system (rank 50).
3. Oregon is the worst state in the nation for 4th grade math achievement gains (rank 50).
4. Oregon is the second worst state in the nation for 4th grade reading achievement (rank 49)
5. Forty-seven states have early-learning standards – Oregon has none.
6. Oregon does not define college readiness or college preparation.
7. Oregon has no path for industry certification while 40 other states do.
8. Oregon has no requirement for licensing teachers that includes substantial coursework completion in the subject area to be taught. Twenty-seven other states do.
9. Oregon has no test of subject-specific knowledge in order to obtain a teaching license. Forty-two other states do.
10. Oregon does not require formal annual evaluations of all teachers’ performance. Forty-three other states do.


But hey - you have a LRT system that works well...congrats. Glad you solved that problem first before getting to anything else.

[SimPhoenix]

I thought this would be appropriate for Transportation Developments. I'm not enjoying Phoenix to much today. I've been sweeping up glass and dealing with Police and insurance companies. My car was stolen from my driveway last night.

[Vicelord John]

Well, this didn't take long...

A minor accident involving a Metro Light Rail car and sedan near 24th and Washington streets occurred Tuesday morning.

The light rail car was heading west when it collided with an Oldsmobile Royale headed north around 10:40 a.m.

The driver of the Oldsmobile was taken to a hospital with minor injuries; the light rail car was intact with power.

According to officials with Metro Light Rail, it was the first reported accident involving a light rail car.

[glynnjamin]

Little more info on John's comment above...

A minor accident involving a Metro Light Rail car and sedan near 24th and Washington streets occurred Tuesday morning.

The light rail car was heading west when it collided with an Oldsmobile Royale headed north around 10:40 a.m.

The driver of the Oldsmobile, an elderly woman, was shaken up but did not suffer injuries. She was not taken to the hospital. The light rail car sustained minor damages to the bumper but was intact with power.

It has not been determined who is at fault. The investigation will be turned over to Phoenix Police Department Transit Bureau. Officials from Valley Metro, which oversees the Light Rail system, will conduct an internal investigation.

Larry Engleman, the director of safety and security with Valley Metro said it was the first reported accident involving the light rail.

“This breaks the ice,” Engleman said. “We've been operating these trains for over a year now. They have thousands of miles on them. We are very pleased we have not had a collision up to this point, but we knew it was going to happen someday.”

Metro Light Rail is testing vehicles throughout Phoenix, Mesa and Tempe. They run at anytime of day or night with as many as two or three Metros connected. Each vehicle is 90 feet long and weighs more than 100,000 pounds.

At any city street intersection the trains can only be traveling a maximum of 35 mph.

The light rail is scheduled to open to the public on December 27th.

I think we all know who is at fault here...old lady in the Oldsmobile

[Sekkle]

If you want to compare Phoenix and Portland, here you go

I don’t and never said anything about comparing them, but ok…

http://portlandor.areaconnect.com/cr...=Phoenix&s2=AZ Sure, Phoenix is a dangerous place, but we are significantly larger and have to deal with illegals.

In 2007, Portland had 20 race-related hate crimes reported for a population of about 500,000.
In 2007, Phoenix had 38 race-related hate crimes reported for a population of about 1,500,000.
A third of the population but only half of the instances. Way to go Portland.

Remembering the difference in population - Phoenix being three times the size of Portland...
Sexual Orientation: Portland - 22 / Phoenix - 20
Religion: Portland - 11 / Phoenix - 9
Ethnicity: Portland - 9 / Phoenix - 13

Almost identical numbers but we have ONE MILLION more people.
Those stats are all from FBI.GOV, btw.

Thanks for the statistics and sources. I don’t know what this has to do with my response to a request for light rail running times, so I won’t go into murder or robbery rates. But I asked you for sources, so I appreciate you providing them. Do these stats make Portland the “trashiest, shittiest city in the lower 48?” I’m sure you can easily find cities with much higher crime rates than Portland… and you don’t have to go to Alaska to do so.

As far as the logging goes - try watching the movie Clear Cut: The Story of Philomath, Oregon. http://www.clearcutmovie.com/ It will give you a good idea of how they have raped the oldest living things from this earth.

Thanks for the link. I’ll watch it when I have time. But I’m not in favor of clearcutting, and I don’t think logging practices in the state of Oregon make the city of Portland the second shittiest city in the US. If you do, fine, we disagree.

Finally - you want some statistics about how bad Oregon's public education system is: http://www.oregoncatalyst.com/index....he-Nation.html

Some highlights -
1. Oregon is the worst state in the nation for Kindergarten enrollment (rank 50).
2. Oregon is the worst state in the nation for adults in the labor force working full time and year-round, a measurement of the outcome of the education system (rank 50).
3. Oregon is the worst state in the nation for 4th grade math achievement gains (rank 50).
4. Oregon is the second worst state in the nation for 4th grade reading achievement (rank 49)
5. Forty-seven states have early-learning standards – Oregon has none.
6. Oregon does not define college readiness or college preparation.
7. Oregon has no path for industry certification while 40 other states do.
8. Oregon has no requirement for licensing teachers that includes substantial coursework completion in the subject area to be taught. Twenty-seven other states do.
9. Oregon has no test of subject-specific knowledge in order to obtain a teaching license. Forty-two other states do.
10. Oregon does not require formal annual evaluations of all teachers’ performance. Forty-three other states do.

Education in Oregon is not excellent. Arizona is in no place to criticize, though, as it consistently ranks at or near the bottom in education rankings.
http://www.statestats.com/edrank.htm
http://www.ppinys.org/reports/jtf/educationspending.htm

In any case, your original claim that the lack of sales tax has destroyed the education system is not supported by the stats you gave. The fact that Oregon’s public education system is ranked in the lower half of states in the US has nothing to do with the fact that tax revenue comes from state income and property taxes rather than from a sales tax.

But hey - you have a LRT system that works well...congrats. Glad you solved that problem first before getting to anything else.

I made no comment about life in Portland, no comparison of the light rail system here to Phoenix’s, and no criticism of life in Phoenix. So I think your “Fuck Portland” sentiments in response to my post answering someone’s question are way out of line.

[Classical in Phoenix]

I asked the running times for LR in Portland because I wanted to see how their shut down time compared to our, what I consider early, shut down time. Thank you for your answer ForAteOh. I wasn't trying to start a Phoenix v. Portland arguement. Both cities have their strong, and weak, points.

[Don B.]

Little more info on John's comment above...I think we all know who is at fault here...old lady in the Oldsmobile

^ Yep. The Metro drivers are heavily regulated and massively trained. Most car drivers...not so much.

I can just about guarantee you that she failed to obey a traffic signal and pulled in front of the oncoming train. Not only did she run a red light, most likely, but she failed to keep a proper lookout for a 100,000 pound train bearing down on her vehicle.

Still, light rail opponents (of which the elderly are the single biggest component thereof) will seize upon this to claim the LR is "dangerous."

--don

[HooverDam]

Im glad the lady in the Olds didn't get hurt. A while back I worked on a shoot for the Light Rail safety campaign (itll mostly be shown in drivers ed courses and such) and I asked some of the folks from Metro how long they thought it would be before someone died in a LRT accident and quite a few of them thought it would be before the LRT even began running.

Don is right though, people are going to freak out about stuff like that, while of course ignoring all the deaths on highways. Id be interested to see the adjusted numbers (relative to how many people they move) for injuries and deaths on rail versus road.

[exit2lef]

Interesting that AZ Central isn't allowing comments on their article covering the accident. Somehow, I miss reading all the knuckle-dragger "told you so" comments.

[mgmAZCO]

AZ Central wasn't really clear on the fault issue. The article says 'the accident appears to be the fault of the vehicle's driver'. Aren't they both vehicles, and don't both have a driver? I'm sure it's the lady in the Olds who's at fault, but they should have said '...the fault of the automobile's driver'.

Accidents and fatalities will happen, here it Denver there were several when some of the new lines opened up. Hopefully there won't be too many in Phx...at least most of the snowbirds drive behemoth tanks, so maybe they'll be somewhat protected :)

[glynnjamin]

I drive home down central every day...and every day I see some idiot breaking the law when it comes to the lights, signs, or right of way with regard to the LRT and the track. Just yesterday, I saw a truck pull into the CROSSWALK gap near Central High to make a U-turn. This is not a street, not an intersection, but a small cut out so that pedestrians can cross from one side of central to the other, and the truck used it to make a U-Turn. I was SHOCKED someone could so blatantly disregard the laws. Daily, my wife and I remark that if Phx PD would just drive up and down central they would meet their quota in 4 hours. I have seen people ignore red arrows, sit through green arrows, drive through intersections when their light is red but the arrow is green, on and on and on. The only reason there have not been more accidents is because they don't seem to test the LRT between 3:30-4pm when I am going home. Can't wait for January.

[glynnjamin]

And Portland boy - I know you didn't invite this. You just chimed in as to what the hours were from the PDX LRT. That's fine. My beef is not with you. I hate that city and the whole state. I listed my complaints with the city (and with Wasilla) and you asked for sources. I gave you sources and you said "that doesn't prove it's the worst place." Clearly "worst city" is a value judgment but it is supported by plenty of statistical facts. I could quote other people who agree but you would simply say "those aren't facts." When I show you facts, you say "that doesn't mean it's 'the worst." It's a shitty city and will always be the bastard stepchild of Seattle - lightrail or not.

As far as my numbers not supporting my claims...try looking at it this way.
Arizona has shitty education - yes. We tax the citizens on property, income, and sales (among other things) and still pay our teachers junk (I should know). We are bringing in as much money as we can and still failing.
Oregon has shitty education too. They don't tax their citizens (or the people who drive over to make purchases) on sales. If my educational system was falling far behind everyone else, I might look at ways to raise funding. A sales tax seems like a really good way to do that.

Instead, they just bribe their citizenry to allow their state to be raped and harvested JUST LIKE ALASKA. It's all well and good that you don't have to pay sales tax but those trees are not yours - they are everyones'! You should not get to forgo an extra 8% on top of your plasma tv so that I won't be able to take my kids to see old growth redwoods. Fuck that. Those are NATIONAL RESOURCES - they belong to me as much as they do you. Why should the Oregon State Legislature get to decide how and why they are cut down and why should the citizens of Oregon (using their top notch deductive reasoning skills they learned in school) get to affirm that decision?

Ya - fuck Portland and fuck Oregon.

[HooverDam]

Kind of an interesting article on how and where the various parts of the LRT trains were assembled:
http://www.azcentral.com/community/phoenix/articles/2008/12/01/20081201lrail-global1203.html

Light rail a global project
Europe, Japan supply parts; assembled here
by Ron Sanzone - Dec. 1, 2008 03:17 PM
The Arizona Republic
Building and assembling Metro light rail's trains revealed the complexities of the global market.

Because the light-rail project received federal funding, it was bound by "Buy America" guidelines, which mandate that 60 percent of its contents be purchased from American companies.

In reality, many parts were purchased by American subsidiaries of foreign companies, though the final assembly of the trains and their parts was done in Phoenix.


The idea that the train is 60 percent American is "something of a shell game because a lot of our suppliers are European in origin," said John Swanson, who oversaw the train design for Metro.

Take the the train doors as an example of how international and American construction blended. An Austrian firm engineered and designed the doors, but they were purchased by Metro through an American company and assembled in the United States.

A Japanese company, Kinkisharyo, provided the outer shell and heavy metal work for the trains. Tires came from South Africa. France and Germany contributed electrical components.

"It's extremely international," Swanson said.

Light rail launches Dec. 27 and will run from north-central Phoenix to Mesa.

Inside cabin of a light-rail train
• Console. This is the panel with buttons controlling the various functions of the train. There is also a video screen on the console.

• Master controller. A device used to control speed of the train. It has three gears - power, coast and brake. As a safety feature, the controller will not work unless your hand presses on it. An operator must press on it the entire time.

• Things operator can do inside the cabin: Open and close train doors, contact the Operations Control Center through a radio phone, operate a horn and a bell, turn on a hill-climb feature to give the car extra traction and propulsion.

Countries that contributed parts:

• Austria: Doors, electrical components
• Germany: Electrical components.

• France: Electrical components.

• Japan: Shell of the train, electrical components.

• South Africa: Tires.

Other facts

• The training program for an operator lasts six weeks, and training is under way now.

• When a three-car train runs, there are two operators, one in the cabin of the front car and the other in the cabin of the back car.

Quotes:

• Ty McLeon, a line controller: "Driving the train is simple itself. The direction it travels is dictated by the rails. The console is pretty user-intuitive. It doesn't take long to learn it."

• John Swanson, who designed the trains for Metro light rail: "We went out of our way to make it (the console) simple (to use.)"

[Sekkle]

And Portland boy - I know you didn't invite this. You just chimed in as to what the hours were from the PDX LRT. That's fine. My beef is not with you. I hate that city and the whole state. I listed my complaints with the city (and with Wasilla) and you asked for sources. I gave you sources and you said "that doesn't prove it's the worst place." Clearly "worst city" is a value judgment but it is supported by plenty of statistical facts. I could quote other people who agree but you would simply say "those aren't facts." When I show you facts, you say "that doesn't mean it's 'the worst." It's a shitty city and will always be the bastard stepchild of Seattle - lightrail or not.

My point was, if you are using crime as a measure of “shittiness” or “trashiness” in a city (the only measure you listed that directly relates to the city), you can do a lot worse than Portland (or Wasilla).

Instead, they just bribe their citizenry to allow their state to be raped and harvested JUST LIKE ALASKA. It's all well and good that you don't have to pay sales tax but those trees are not yours - they are everyones'! You should not get to forgo an extra 8% on top of your plasma tv so that I won't be able to take my kids to see old growth redwoods. Fuck that. Those are NATIONAL RESOURCES - they belong to me as much as they do you. Why should the Oregon State Legislature get to decide how and why they are cut down and why should the citizens of Oregon (using their top notch deductive reasoning skills they learned in school) get to affirm that decision?

I agree with your general sentiment here, but I think your anger is misplaced. The State of Oregon does not control logging on NATIONAL lands. That is controlled by the US Forest Service and Bureau of Land Management. The Bush administration controls whether National Forest land is opened up for logging – that goes for Oregon as well as Arizona and other states. The Oregon Legislature controls state forests. While I’m not in favor of clearcutting state forests either, those lands are not “everyone’s.” They belong to the people of the state of Oregon, not to you.

Ya - fuck Portland and fuck Oregon.
Great.

[alexjon]

I don't know what's going on here, but it sure looks interesting!

[glynnjamin]

While I’m not in favor of clearcutting state forests either, those lands are not “everyone’s.” They belong to the people of the state of Oregon, not to you.

No - sorry. You do not pay to plant those trees. Those trees were there. You do not just GET them because Teddy Roosevelt didn't draw a line around them. Old Growth is history and has value to EVERYONE - not just greedy Oregonians who don't want to pay taxes. That's like saying that Michigan can drain the lake because it touches their borders. That's like saying that a bald eagle that lives in Oregon should be bound by Oregonian law. These are things that were there before anyone had an idea of banging two rocks together much less diving up land into states.

Please tell me what measurement you would like me to use to rate trashiness? I can find plenty. But I am pretty sure that using HATE CRIME (not just crime, as you stated) statistics reveal a lot about just how progressive that shit hole is.

[Sekkle]

^ Fine. I like living here. I love Portland and I think Oregon is a beautiful state. You are entitled to your opinion. I just thought it was a dick move to verbally attack someone else's city completely unprovoked when we were talking about something completely unrelated. I'm done with this discussion. Apologies to those who read through all this. :cheers:

[Don B.]

Glynnjamin acts like he was ass-raped by Oregon. I can't ascertain any other reason for his rabid vitriolic hate of that place. Everything I've heard about Portland is that it is a progressive sort of place with a real sense of urbanity.

I am getting so excited by the Metro. Can't wait to ride it on December 27! There was a two-car train stopped at the 7th Avenue and Camelback station last night about 8:40 pm when I left Charlie's. Looked great!

--don

[alexjon]

^Yeah, I've never been hate-crimed and you have way more freedom in Portland. Then again, that's just Portland. Some parts of Clackamas County look like Mesa with trees.

My sister knows I'm big on transit, so one thing she apparently said was "now he doesn't have an excuse [not to visit]!" when she found out about my interest in light rail there. I suppose she's right, though- I intend on visiting the Valley of the Spun partly because of light rail. And family, I guess. I suppose.

[PHX31]

/\Plus, you can't get desert sunsets in Seattle:

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn20/azstate29/P1000162.jpg

[glynnjamin]

Glynnjamin acts like he was ass-raped by Oregon. I can't ascertain any other reason for his rabid vitriolic hate of that place. Everything I've heard about Portland is that it is a progressive sort of place with a real sense of urbanity.

I am getting so excited by the Metro. Can't wait to ride it on December 27! There was a two-car train stopped at the 7th Avenue and Camelback station last night about 8:40 pm when I left Charlie's. Looked great!

--don

Of course Don would jump to a conclusion involving a gay fantasy.

In reality, I've driven through there plenty when I used to live in Seattle and every single time I went through, I had an issue. The most prominent was when me and my Chinese friend stopped for gas at a Pilot station just south of Portland and he was verbally assaulted by the clerks inside for being "oriental" and then was physically assaulted outside on the way back to the car. Any time I bring a minority into that state, we get harassed. So now, I fill up in Vancouver and drive till I hit Eureka.

[Don B.]

^ Okay. BTW, who said anything about a gay fantasy? You sure love to introduce non sequiturs into a conversation, that's for sure.

Phx31, where was that photo taken? Did you take it? I like it a lot.

--don

[PHX31]

We all have things we loathe for our own reasons... even if no one else does. Let him have Portland/Oregon.

I can't stand the band Smashmouth and want to drive my car over a cliff every time I hear "... in the shape of an "L" on her forehead...". But that doesn't mean they don't have millions of adoring (idiot) fans throughout the world.

[PHX31]

Phx31, where was that photo taken? Did you take it? I like it a lot.

--don

Thanks, yeah I took it a few months ago. I took it from one of the top floors of the parking garage that is just north of the YMCA building, immediately west of the Phoenix Transportation Building (or whatever it is called).

[Vicelord John]

I like the sentence that it could not determine who was at fault in the accident. The fucking train is on tracks, it isn't making any illegal lane changes or anything like that.

Don't get hit by a train, it is that fucking simple. When you see a damn train, don't get hit!

[alexjon]

/\Plus, you can't get desert sunsets in Seattle:

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn20/azstate29/P1000162.jpg

We get by:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/88/279765618_2fb1e9324b.jpg
(Photo by D&E Hutchinson, Flickr)

I don't think I'll be able to ride Valley Metro until at least a year from now, but that way I can take LRT to SeaTac and from Sky Harbor and back again.

In reality, I've driven through there plenty when I used to live in Seattle and every single time I went through, I had an issue. The most prominent was when me and my Chinese friend stopped for gas at a Pilot station just south of Portland and he was verbally assaulted by the clerks inside for being "oriental" and then was physically assaulted outside on the way back to the car. Any time I bring a minority into that state, we get harassed. So now, I fill up in Vancouver and drive till I hit Eureka.

Pfft, I never went too far out of Portland. Furthest south was Salem, and that was interesting. Tweety shirts, racial epithets, etc. East was Troutdale, same thing. West was Forest Grove, but that was just old folks.

Vantucky is scary.

[Tempe_Duck]

I don't think I'll be able to ride Valley Metro until at least a year from now, but that way I can take LRT to SeaTac and from Sky Harbor and back again.


Actually the Light Rail doesn't connect to the airport. At first there will be the Airport buses going to the "Airport Stop." The Airport is working on a APM, similar to what is in Vegas but the first stage isn't scheduled to open until 2013 or something around there.

[glynnjamin]

Actually the Light Rail doesn't connect to the airport. At first there will be the Airport buses going to the "Airport Stop." The Airport is working on a APM, similar to what is in Vegas but the first stage isn't scheduled to open until 2013 or something around there.

For all intents and purposes, the LRT connects to the airport. I can't think of a single major airport in the US that has rail transit connected directly to a terminal. Not JFK, not DC-National, not Logan...

You could argue the much lauded BART connects to SF Airport but only to one terminal - then you have to take SkyTrain.

It just doesn't make sense to have a major commuter line making a stop at the West Lot, Terminal 2, Terminal 3, Terminal 4, and the East Lot and then continue on to the East Valley. It would add 15 minutes to the trip time that is already long enough.

Arizonans (not any of you in particular) are so lazy. They never want to walk or transfer. They want the line to go from their door to the office - even if they live in Queen Creek and work in Surprise.

The SkyTrain-type people mover that SkyHarbor is building is similar to the monstrosity that the Seattle Metro is running from Tukwilla to SeaTac. They at least built their SkyTrain at the same time as their lightrail. Now if they could only sync up the Link and the Sounder...

[alexjon]

For all intents and purposes, the LRT connects to the airport. I can't think of a single major airport in the US that has rail transit connected directly to a terminal. Not JFK, not DC-National, not Logan...

You could argue the much lauded BART connects to SF Airport but only to one terminal - then you have to take SkyTrain.

It just doesn't make sense to have a major commuter line making a stop at the West Lot, Terminal 2, Terminal 3, Terminal 4, and the East Lot and then continue on to the East Valley. It would add 15 minutes to the trip time that is already long enough.

Arizonans (not any of you in particular) are so lazy. They never want to walk or transfer. They want the line to go from their door to the office - even if they live in Queen Creek and work in Surprise.

The SkyTrain-type people mover that SkyHarbor is building is similar to the monstrosity that the Seattle Metro is running from Tukwilla to SeaTac. They at least built their SkyTrain at the same time as their lightrail. Now if they could only sync up the Link and the Sounder...

Airport Link is a continuation of Link from Tukwila to SEA stopping at the parking garage with a direct line into the terminals. It will then go on to Fed Way.

MAX Red Line stops underneath Terminal A at PDX within spitting distance of Security. Terminal A is regional, Seattle to San Francisco via Alaskan or Horizon.

Hiawatha Line stops at both the Lindbergh and Humphrey Terminals at MSP.

MAX and the Hiawatha Lines stop right at the terminals in respectable locations near security. Link stops as close as you can get without ending up having to fly over ditches or runways. The walk from the parking garage is simple.

[glynnjamin]

Didn't even know Min/StP had lightrail...never been there. Thanks for that.

How do you get from Terminal A to the other terminals at PDX? Are there other terminals? Can you actually fly from Portland to anywhere other than Seattle or San Francisco? Do they allow flights out of PDX? Or only in?

Not all airports are like Seattle where all the terminals are connected. The ones that are, it makes sense to run the train there because it is essentially only one stop. Places like PHX and ATL where the terminals are spread out, you have to have some sort of shuttle between them. If you are already having to build the infrastructure to connect the terminals, it only makes sense to run the LRT to one single point and then make riders transfer. That is what we are doing here in PHX. I have always hated the stupid inter-terminal buses and trying to figure out Jackrabbit, RoadRunner, Coyote, etc and then decide northbound or southbound curb. I can't wait till the SkyTrain is done...even the initial line to Terminal 4. With all of that said, paying less than $2 to get to the airport is an amazing thing. One night I couldn't find anyone to pick me up and the buses weren't running so I took a cab. It was $10 before we even got out of the airport area and on to the freeway. Although I guess I better get in before midnight otherwise I'll be S.O.L. with the lightrail as well.

[HooverDam]

In St Louis their LRT connects directly to Lambert but thats only because their airport is suburban in nature and serves as the end of the line. Like you said, since Sky Harbor is in the middle of the metropolis running LRT right through it would've slowed things down way too much. I think the solution they came up with is the best, though its unfortunate it'll be another 12 friggin' years before the APM is completed.

[alexjon]

Didn't even know Min/StP had lightrail...never been there. Thanks for that.

How do you get from Terminal A to the other terminals at PDX? Are there other terminals? Can you actually fly from Portland to anywhere other than Seattle or San Francisco? Do they allow flights out of PDX? Or only in?

Not all airports are like Seattle where all the terminals are connected. The ones that are, it makes sense to run the train there because it is essentially only one stop. Places like PHX and ATL where the terminals are spread out, you have to have some sort of shuttle between them. If you are already having to build the infrastructure to connect the terminals, it only makes sense to run the LRT to one single point and then make riders transfer. That is what we are doing here in PHX. I have always hated the stupid inter-terminal buses and trying to figure out Jackrabbit, RoadRunner, Coyote, etc and then decide northbound or southbound curb. I can't wait till the SkyTrain is done...even the initial line to Terminal 4. With all of that said, paying less than $2 to get to the airport is an amazing thing. One night I couldn't find anyone to pick me up and the buses weren't running so I took a cab. It was $10 before we even got out of the airport area and on to the freeway. Although I guess I better get in before midnight otherwise I'll be S.O.L. with the lightrail as well.

With PDX, the terminals are very close together and laid out very well. It's actually a very amazing airport... you go up an escalator into the central concourse and the remaining terminals are essentially a straight-shot. PDX does flights all over the country-- it's pretty busy. Lots of vacation travelers going to Alaska from, say, the east coast.

In Sky Harbor, yeah, a bit too spread out so I agree that it would be more than great to simply run a people mover from the light rail station. Even a shuttle would be fantastic.

[shawneriksmith]

PDX also has flights to/from Phoenix so I've been there a couple of times...it is a pretty good airport (I like that the rental car companies are right across from the terminal, so no taking a bus to get a rental car). I did also notice the ease to get to public transportation in that airport...I'm sure Phoenix airport will be easier once everything is built out.

[glynnjamin]

^ On that note, what does everyone think of the rental car garage over on 24th st? Was that a good idea? I remember that it used to be crazy with all of the buses for each rental car company and the nightmare of having to get to each lot. They have definitely cut down on the number of buses that drive through the terminals but the abundance of city buses that look the same is a little daunting for out of towners. There is one for the rental car place, one for the east lot, one for the west lot, one that is just inter-terminal...and then, of course, if you get going the wrong direction, you can be on it for 30mins.

I know that the airport is in a sort of strange teenager stage. They are going to tear down Terminal 2 (we have to be the only airport with a missing terminal number) and build the West Terminal. Because of that, it is difficult to organize everything and to have a coherent transportation system.

Is the ultimate plan (SkyTrain + West Teminal) going to solve SkyHarbor's woes? The SkyTrain will eventually go from 44th St Station to the East Lot, Terminal 4, Terminal 3, West Terminal, West Lot, and the rental car lot...from what I understand.

Seems like most airports have their car rental places inside the terminal and then the actual cars are parked on a level of the garage connected to the terminal. Seems like this is best for both the company and the renter. I've never had to rent a car in PHX so I'm not sure, but I hear the new place is not really convenient.

[exit2lef]

^ On that note, what does everyone think of the rental car garage over on 24th st? Was that a good idea? I remember that it used to be crazy with all of the buses for each rental car company and the nightmare of having to get to each lot. They have definitely cut down on the number of buses that drive through the terminals but the abundance of city buses that look the same is a little daunting for out of towners. There is one for the rental car place, one for the east lot, one for the west lot, one that is just inter-terminal...and then, of course, if you get going the wrong direction, you can be on it for 30mins.

I know that the airport is in a sort of strange teenager stage. They are going to tear down Terminal 2 (we have to be the only airport with a missing terminal number) and build the West Terminal. Because of that, it is difficult to organize everything and to have a coherent transportation system.

Is the ultimate plan (SkyTrain + West Teminal) going to solve SkyHarbor's woes? The SkyTrain will eventually go from 44th St Station to the East Lot, Terminal 4, Terminal 3, West Terminal, West Lot, and the rental car lot...from what I understand.

Seems like most airports have their car rental places inside the terminal and then the actual cars are parked on a level of the garage connected to the terminal. Seems like this is best for both the company and the renter. I've never had to rent a car in PHX so I'm not sure, but I hear the new place is not really convenient.

Off-site integrated rental car centers exist at several large airports. Dallas-Fort Worth is probably the best known example. The inconvenience arises largely from the shutttle bus system. As you suggest, travelers have to figure out which bus to board, and the bus then has to stop at traffic lights several times along the way. The people mover should provide a quicker, more straightforward connection between the terminals and the rental car center. Unfortunately, the western segment of the people mover isn't scheduled to open until 2020.

[Classical in Phoenix]

I'm going to be getting up there in age in 2020. Why does the cool stuff take so long?!