[Halifax] Nova Centre | 65-58-58 m | 16-15-14 fl | Completed

[someone123]

It's hard for me to gauge this because I no longer live in Halifax, but I have noticed that the design process for most public projects in the city is very closed. They didn't even have a design competition for the library - what a lost opportunity, not only for the designs, but also for motivation and visibility.

[planarchy]

I agree with you, but I think they're trying. The CEU started a newsletter a couple of years ago and had bold ambitions to develop a street front information centre. I know that the newsletter came out with a couple of editions, but I'm not sure if the other project materialized. They have hosted lectures and public forums (see their website) and administered the trillium public art competition. I agree that there could be a more outspoken and vocal presence in this community - a leader could make an even greater impact.

Yeah this is true. Again, I'm not saying anything against their efforts. And in the case, resources are definitely an issue. Too many projects to tackle, not enough manpower. The newsletter is no longer published, and the proposed Planning and Design Centre has not yet materialized for a number of reasons - a fantastic initiative, and I hope it resurfaces soon with a plan to make it a success.

About the lectures and exhibitions. I know about them! but only because I know where to look. I just meant that they can do a better job at telling the public about them, and be a bit more inviting to those outside of academic world (would also be great to have more working professionals attending for both a sort of continuing education, as well as bringing more practical working questions and concerns into the discussion).

You're right - leadership is always an issue. Faculty members are often spread thin between teaching, research, private practice work, thesis guidance etc., and it can be difficult to get someone to take the lead - especially when dealing with municipal issues that are often so frustrating for everyone involved.

[planarchy]

It's hard for me to gauge this because I no longer live in Halifax, but I have noticed that the design process for most public projects in the city is very closed. They didn't even have a design competition for the library - what a lost opportunity, not only for the designs, but also for motivation and visibility.

This is a fantastic point and one I really don't understand. An international (invited or not) competition should be the default for all public buildings. It is a win-win. You can generate great ideas, engaged the community, gather outside opinions (people not influenced by political history, etc), it is a fraction of the cost of the countless studies and reports that only ever seem to produce the same results, and in the end, you don't have to build any of the proposals if not deemed suitable. At the very least, you generate discussion about the future of the city and about what it wants to be. And this is an exercise that Halifax desperately needs. You also give smaller firms and start-up firms the opportunity to show-off work, when they rarely stand a chance in a closed RFP competition gauged almost solely on cost. It is common practice throughout Europe (in cities of all sizes), in most major cities in NA today, and I don't see why it doesn't happen here. To relate it to the posts above about the role of design schools - this is really where they can bring a lot to the city - by organizing, implementing and encouraging such practices.

[Dmajackson]

Just a demolition shot from today;

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4043/4438834085_284aec7820_b.jpg

[Keith P.]

It's hard for me to gauge this because I no longer live in Halifax, but I have noticed that the design process for most public projects in the city is very closed. They didn't even have a design competition for the library - what a lost opportunity, not only for the designs, but also for motivation and visibility.

It seems most public buildings here get designed on a low-bid basis, so that explains the mediocrity. As for the library, well, that is Judith Hare's monument to herself, so she has engineered the selection process to give her what she wants. How she ended up with FBM, the same firm that designed the red-brick and sonotube bowling alley known as Citadel High, speaks volumes about the level of expertise applied to that project.

[Empire]

It seems most public buildings here get designed on a low-bid basis, so that explains the mediocrity. As for the library, well, that is Judith Hare's monument to herself, so she has engineered the selection process to give her what she wants. How she ended up with FBM, the same firm that designed the red-brick and sonotube bowling alley known as Citadel High, speaks volumes about the level of expertise applied to that project.

Hopefully the architectural affiliate to FBM for the library will point out what a cheap design Citadel High is.

[fenwick16]

I feel relieved to read that Mayor Kelly is promoting this Nova Centre project and other downtown projects. I always keep hoping that Mayor Kelly will mention something about stadium plans (in collaboration with a private investor).

Bright future comes with the spring in downtown Halifax
PETER KELLY (TAKE FIVE WITH THE MAYOR) Peter Kelly
Halifax News Net

I’d like to share with you the optimism I feel for the future of downtown Halifax. My confidence stems from the number of major development opportunities on the drawing board as well as the potential for more to come.
From my window here at City Hall, I can see the site of what regional council and I anticipate will eventually be a key driver of the urban core’s rejuvenation — the $300-million Nova Centre.
The developer calls Nova Centre “a tangible expression of confidence in the future of Halifax as the pre-eminent business centre in the Atlantic Region.”
The centre is earmarked for the sites of the former Chronicle-Herald and Midtown buildings. Demolition crews are clearing the area in anticipation of the new centre proceeding, once all necessary financing and permits are in place.
The developer’s design includes commercial, retail and residential components, plus office and hotel towers. Anchoring the 1.25-million sq. ft. proposal is a trade/convention centre. It would be a huge incentive in attracting events from HRM, across Canada and abroad.
While the proposed Nova Centre is a key component in the downtown’s future prosperity, it’s by no means the only one. There are a number of other major proposals in the offing which add to my optimism. For example, the owner of the 18-storey TD building is planning to double the size of the complex to meet a growing demand for Class A office space.
Large towers are also proposed for the site of the Discovery Centre and the Roy Building while new futures are being discussed for locations like the former home of Sam the Record Man and the Carsand-Mosher location. Also last week, council sent for public hearing a proposed five-storey addition at the City Centre Atlantic site, a block from busy Spring Garden Road.
Council’s initiatives are incentives for making the urban core a good place to live and work, initiatives like HRMbyDesign, our landmark urban design plan, and the Barrington Street Heritage Conservation District Revitalization Plan, which encourages conservation, restoration and commercial revitalization of historic buildings, streetscapes and public spaces.
When these projects and proposals become realities, they will add to the liveliness and prosperity of the downtown, causing spinoff benefits for the entire municipality.

Dedicated community organizations like the Cobequid Cultural Society also inspire me.
Members of this non-profit group want to create a special centre for performing arts and culture, digital arts and cultural training for the area of HRM that includes Sackville, Beaver Bank, Bedford, Timberlea, Hammonds Plains, Hubley, Mount Uniacke, Fall River, Waverley, Dutch Settlement and Windsor Junction.
The society proposes this centre be built in conjunction with the new high school which will replace C.P. Allen, sometime in the next couple of years. For the society, this would represent significant savings in land costs, construction and maintenance. In return, the new school would have access to a cultural arts facility.
Similar tandem developments exist in New Glasgow, Mabou and Halifax West High School. One is also in the construction process at Citadel High School. Go to www.cccas.ca/cccas-arts-centre.html to learn more.

Nominations for the 12th annual Mayor’s Awards for Literary Achievement and Excellence in Book Illustration close March 19. You’ll find details at www.halifax.ca/council/mayor/mayors_awards.html

And finally, I would like to take this opportunity to wish you a very happy spring. According to the calendar, the new season arrives this Saturday, March 20, at precisely 2.32 p.m. I can’t wait to get my hands dirty in the garden!


Get in touch with Mayor Kelly at city hall at kellyp@halifax.ca or by phoning him at 490-4010. He’s also on Facebook and Twitter.

[fenwick16]

This is a short article that was in metronews.ca Halifax. ( http://www.metronews.ca/halifax/local/article/480889--association-chief-bemoans-lost-conventions ). In spite of groups like Heritage Trust and Save our View being against it, it is good to see this group is a proponent of the trade centre.

Association chief bemoans lost conventions
METRO HALIFAX
March 18, 2010 1:20 a.m.
The president of the Hotel Association of Nova Scotia said yesterday the lack of a modern convention centre in downtown Halifax has reduced the province to a “B-level convention market.”

Jeff Ransome said in a release the World Trade and Convention Centre is outdated, resulting in the province losing convention business.

“Size and other limitations have reduced us to a B-level convention market in the eyes of meeting planners,” he said. “This has resulted in the loss of approximately 70 major conferences in the last three years alone.”

Ransome said the lost conferences hurt the hotel industry. The province and city are also losing out on revenue, he added.

Ransome said the WTCC has generated $975 million in revenues and $40 million in provincial tax revenue since 2000 — but a new facility has the potential to yield more.

Venue
Last May, HRM and the province announced plans for a new convention centre to be built on Argyle Street, on the site of the old Halifax Herald building, by 2013.

[fenwick16]

If construction on the Nova Centre starts in the near future then this might have a positive effect on the start of the United Gulf towers since one tower was meant to be a hotel tower (just my conjecture).

[sdm]

If construction on the Nova Centre starts in the near future then this might have a positive effect on the start of the United Gulf towers since one tower was meant to be a hotel tower (just my conjecture).

Not sure, but not likely.

Currently to finance a hotel a developer/owner would require a minimum of 50% equity. Pretty much next to impossible to make a hotel work with those type of requirements.

[-Harlington-]

just some more demolition



http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2791/4444931998_55d17170d1.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4005/4444932382_81c8b36b74.jpg

bye bye midtownhttp://farm3.static.flickr.com/2711/4444934412_7a04489f26.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2677/4444163683_da140d18aa.jpg

going, going, gettin there...http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4030/4444935184_dc2cd6e686.jpg

[fenwick16]

Thanks for the photos Harlington.

There is a petition is favour of the Nova Centre. It is at this link: http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/support-the-new-halifax-convention-centre-construction.html">Online petition - Support the New Halifax Convention Centre Construction . It is good to see pro-development groups promoting growth and jobs in the Halifax area.

[sdm]

I have no problem supporting this development, but i keep seeing this

" Nova Scotia has lost at least 70 conferences due to our lack of capacity. In real terms, this meant a loss of 56,000 delegates, 115,000 room nights and an estimated $4 million in provincial tax revenues."

If that is the case then show the numbers to the public that we are actually losing these events.

[fenwick16]

I have no problem supporting this development, but i keep seeing this

" Nova Scotia has lost at least 70 conferences due to our lack of capacity. In real terms, this meant a loss of 56,000 delegates, 115,000 room nights and an estimated $4 million in provincial tax revenues."

If that is the case then show the numbers to the public that we are actually losing these events.

I think that this is impossible. Sometimes faith is required. It is like building the the MacDonald Bridge back in 1958, did anyone predict the positive effect that it would have on growth in Dartmouth? Maybe some did predict this, but there was no way to prove it prior to building the bridge.

[Empire]

I have no problem supporting this development, but i keep seeing this

" Nova Scotia has lost at least 70 conferences due to our lack of capacity. In real terms, this meant a loss of 56,000 delegates, 115,000 room nights and an estimated $4 million in provincial tax revenues."

If that is the case then show the numbers to the public that we are actually losing these events.

Just as important as the direct economic impact is the spinoff or unknown benifits. Many conferences will have some association with businesses or industry in the area. It gives the decision makers a chance to see first hand what can be offered in the area as well as having the opportunity to speak with local industry and financial reps. directly.

[Jonovision]

Two opposing articles from today's Herald.

http://halifaxchronicle.can.newsmemory.com/newsmemvol1/canada/halifaxchronicle/20100319/ch_pe_03-19-10_c01.pdf.0/img/Image_2.jpg
Demolition work continues on the old Chronicle Herald building. A new convention centre is planned for the site. (PETER PARSONS / Staff)

‘ Boondoggle’ would block view

Heritage group says convention centre bad investment


By BILL POWER Business Reporter
AGROUP FIGHTING to protect the view from Citadel Hill wants the province to abandon a proposed $100-million invest ment in a replacement for the World Trade and Convention Centre.

“It’s like investing in a race horse that is past its prime," said Phil Pacey on Thursday at a news conference organized by the Coalition to Save the View.

The coalition — comprised of a mix of groups opposed to the development intended for the former Chronicle Herald site downtown — used the event to release data showing the North American convention industry has been in a state of decline since the end of the 1990s.

Officials in the convention industry in Halifax disputed the numbers later.

Coalition members used graphs to back up their com ments about a decline in the in dustry and to question the wis dom of the province’s commit ment to the Halifax project.

They said they are very skep tical about numbers provided by promoters of a replacement convention centre and called on the provincial government to conduct its own objective re view.

“The decision makers should not rely on flawed and inaccurate information," said coalition member Peter Delefes.

Coalition member Judy Hai ven said that by investing $100 million in the convention centre portion of the develop ment, the province would be al lowing a couple of highrise towers to be built at the former Herald site.

“It’s very disturbing that the provincial government has not looked at the economic boon doggle the convention centre industry has become," she said.

Haiven provided examples of cities that continued to experi ence declines in convention at tendance after building new convention centres, including Baltimore and Indianapolis in the United States and Nanaimo in British Columbia.

The coalition has argued for months against the towers, in sisting that they would block the panoramic view of Halifax Harbour offered from the for tress.

Much of the information pre sented at the news conference came from consultations with Heywood Sanders at the Uni versity of Texas at San Anto nio. He is considered an expert in the convention industry.

One graph prepared by the professor showed that while convention centre exhibit space grew by 11 per cent from 1998 to 2008, attendance at the 50 top Canadian events de clined by 200,000, or 32 per cent. Coalition members said they are upset about the way the provincial investment in the convention centre would allow the developer to proceed with the project, add a couple of highrise towers and reduce a portion of Grafton Street to an enclosed pedestrian walkway.

Questions about the validity of the coalition’s numbers and its arguments against investing in a convention centre were raised by Jeff Ransome, president of the Hotel Association of Nova Sco tia.

“The numbers are down in Ha lifax because we lack a modern complex to compete within an in dustry that is looking for more space," he said.

“Size and other limitations have reduced us to a B-level con vention market in the eyes of meeting planners.

This has resulted in the loss of approximately 70 major confer ences in the last three years alone."

Ransome also questioned why a group with such an obvious bias against the entire develop ment was suddenly so vocal about the convention industry.

“It is ridiculous to suggest that, because some convention centres in some markets are hav ing trouble, we should abandon the industry here."

He said this was like saying the city should abandon the entire shipping industry “if there is one leaky boat somewhere out there on the ocean."

Scott Ferguson, president and CEO of Trade Centre Ltd., said some numbers used by the coali tion focus on an entirely differ ent segment of the market and re late to some of the biggest trade show venues in the world, such as the Moscone Center in San F rancisco.

“Over the past 10 years, the trade centre in Halifax has gen erated a billion dollars for the provincial economy," he said.

(bpower@herald.ca)



More than a view at stake


ROGER TAYLOR
ANYONE walking around downtown Halifax quickly real izes that the provin cial capital’s prime business and entertainment district appears a little depressed.

There are plenty of empty storefronts and vacant lots, and the overall mood doesn’t do Halifax justice.

Nevertheless, a group has banded together to sabotage plans to inject new energy into the downtown.

The group, called the Coali tion to Save the View from Citadel Hill, believes that if it can persuade the provincial government not to participate in the construction of a new convention centre, it will be able to block an 18-storey hotel and a 14-storey office tower that are part of the complex.

The coalition held a news conference Thursday to make its case against the conven tion centre being built. It says the convention business is dying, and therefore investing in a new and expanded meet ing place in Halifax wouldn’t be worth it.

Rank Inc., the private devel oper, disagrees. It has an am bitious plan to build the mixed-use project — conven tion centre, hotel and finan cial centre, with commercial, retail and residential compo nents — on two contiguous city blocks in the heart of downtown. The plan also in cludes underground parking for 600 vehicles.

The complex is expected to cost more than $300 million; the convention centre alone is to run about $100 million.

The proposal calls for Rank to build the convention centre and lease it to Halifax Region al Municipality and the prov ince, which would manage it as it does the current World Trade and Convention Centre. One convention expert says convention centres are necessary for a growing econ omy, while the opposing group has its own expert saying the future for conventions is dire.

I’m not a convention expert, but including the convention centre as part of a new devel opment in the heart of down town is an opportunity that is not likely to come along again any time soon.

An estimated 1,500 jobs would be created during the construction phase alone. The prospect of an exciting new development in Halifax, I’m told, is attracting companies that want to set up shop in the new financial centre, increas ing the number of people working downtown.

Construction of such a com plex could also encourage a wave of much-needed devel opment downtown because of the business it would bring to the area.

The former Chronicle Her ald property on Argyle Street, where the complex is to be built, was never affected by the viewplane legislation of the 1960s, therefore highrise construction on the site was not restricted. The legislation tried to preserve the view of Halif ax Harbour from the ramparts of the Citadel.

The new HRM by Design regulations were written to accommodate the viewplane rules. So at least a couple of highrise buildings could be built on the former Herald property with or without a convention centre.

I remember what Halifax was like when the current World Trade and Convention Centre was built decades ago.

It provided an immediate boost of energy.

No matter what people say about the convention busi ness, Halifax is still a desir able location for convention planners. I’m told that trade centre management is turning away business because the current facility is lacking.

Government must negotiate a good deal on behalf of the people of Nova Scotia, every one agrees on that. But the sooner we get this complex built, the sooner Nova Sco tians will be able to reap the rewards.

(rtaylor@herald.ca)

[haligonia]

It's very sad that minorities like this are holding Halifax back from what it could be. I understand that they want to protect the city's heritage - and so do I - but the CH building was definatly not worth saving, and I don't think tourists will mind if they don't have a perfectly unobstructed view of the harbour from the citadel. If they keep opposing developments like this, the downtown will eventually become lifeless, and without activity, their precious heritage buidings will soon become rundown, and then we have a downtown full of dead heritage building and gigantic holes. If they are so pro heritage and anti development, they can hop the train to Quebec City. Plenty of heritage and a ban on highrise development.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Thanks for the photos Harlington.

There is a petition is favour of the Nova Centre. It is at this link: http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/support-the-new-halifax-convention-centre-construction.html">Online petition - Support the New Halifax Convention Centre Construction . It is good to see pro-development groups promoting growth and jobs in the Halifax area.

Everybody sign this!!

[fenwick16]

Two opposing articles from today's Herald.

What is interesting to me, is that the story in favour allows comments but the story against does not.

PS: Here are one of the comments against the pro-convention article. Are these people serious? Do they really think that people travel to Halifax to see the view from the Citadel? Many visitors to Halifax are business travellers who are there on business.

Cutting off your nose to spite your face is no solution to the downtown problems either. The tourism element and view from citadel hill is part of what makes this a good convention destination. You remove that and just you have another eastern seaboard slum city. Building a bunch of super towers downtown will do nothing but ruin the bigger value in coming here for tourists. Now the construction barons would tell you otherwise, but their motives are short-term profit, with little concern for long term viability. Plus our tax dollars are funding their retirement homes in Mahone Bay. I do not think much of the heritage group elitism, but it does not change the fact that their message is correct. If you do not preserve history then you will have no tourism. The downtown core is a mess because of the lack of parking, not because of any lack of buildings to put a business in. Adding more structures for offices will just make it even worse. Where is the common sense in the planning office?

Another complained about all the construction in Halifax. Don't these people realize that they live in a city? If they want to live in a village why don't they move to Yarmouth? Having said this, is there a way to minimize the impact of development sites on the appearance of the city without blocking development?

[David1gray]

an article on the cbc website http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia/story/2010/03/19/ns-estabrooks-halifax-convention-centre.html
not much to the article, comments a kinda sketchy though

[sdm]

It's very sad that minorities like this are holding Halifax back from what it could be. I understand that they want to protect the city's heritage - and so do I - but the CH building was definatly not worth saving, and I don't think tourists will mind if they don't have a perfectly unobstructed view of the harbour from the citadel. If they keep opposing developments like this, the downtown will eventually become lifeless, and without activity, their precious heritage buidings will soon become rundown, and then we have a downtown full of dead heritage building and gigantic holes. If they are so pro heritage and anti development, they can hop the train to Quebec City. Plenty of heritage and a ban on highrise development.

I agree, the hertiage trust is barking up the wrong tree when it comes to developments of tall buildings. They shoudl worry about getting incentives for the owners of existing heritage assets, instead of blocking new developments.

However, as much as i disapprove of their efforts in previous projects, i have to agree with them on this in that if the business for a new trade centre is there, then let those who are promoting it to show the facts.

As previously stated, i will support it if the facts are true, but build it and they will come attitude is dangerous game to play with public money, especially when the public money is needed for many things besides this project.

I don't believe one minute that this project will save downtown, i actually think if the site was residential/retail/office use that it would have a greater sustain effect on the downtown.

[halifaxboyns]

I want to make a couple comments about this project - I preface this by saying I don't live in Halifax, but I do planning work in Alberta. This is going to be long; so get comfy! :)

HbD provides policy; which is now council approved. It's a bonusing structure through zoning - so if this goes ahead; the bonusing wouldn't apply and the 8 storey limit would be the max height.

I've had a chance to look over the 'save the view' website and facebook group - sad to see some faces in there which I thought were for progress. Guess I was wrong.

That being said, their massing models that they have on their website are wrong - they assume that grade at the Nova Site is the same as Brunswick - it's not; grade slopes down. The building design is responsive to approved viewplanes and from my estimates of the elevations of the max height of the ramparts and the building height - they are well under the rampart heights for the smaller building and close, but under on the taller. As for design, there are a few elements i'd change, but that's my own thoughts.

When I looked at Save the view - they have statistics about people being for the view - but there is nothing to say how that data was collected? If you are going to say the convention business is dying - prove it; just as I would ask that group - prove your statistics.

Also - they talk about saving the view from the road; but the viewplane rules are about from the ramparts and certain points on the road - not the whole road. You can't have it both ways! The original legislation was about having realistic points where the view would be preserved, while allowing development in the areas where the rules didn't affect property.

I'd add that while the convention centre component might be sketchy in terms of data to support it; there is typically good hotel occupation rates in Halifax during busy summer seasons. This of course depends on the state of the economy and what's going on; so varies year to year - but if a hotel is included, then I'm sure that the recovering of the cost would be quicker than if it was just a conference centre alone. I suspect that if Halifax has been religated to 'b' level convention status; that if this is built it could move up to 'a' level and still get 'b' level ones too. Considering that air access to Halifax seems to be improving (just added US airways to Philly) - the more flights in, the better.

Finally - my comment would be that there are a lot of opinions of support on here and I saw that there was a group that was pro-development for downtown talked about. So to members of that group - I'd highly suggest that you organize your own press conference to talk about this issue as well. But I'd caution you by saying - be prepared for the questions. Come with facts, backed up with evidence and put yourside out there. Get people talking about this...that's what this issue needs!

[halifaxboyns]

Whoops - I should read before I post. I want to correct my statement about the bonusing through zoning. If the conference centre goes ahead, the bonusing WOULD apply. If it doesn't, then the regular zoning restrictions of 8 stories would apply. Whoops!

[fenwick16]

I've had a chance to look over the 'save the view' website and facebook group - sad to see some faces in there which I thought were for progress. Guess I was wrong.

Yes, this is sad. Especially, since one is a councillor with inside information on the progress and is the councillor for this district. I hope that that councillor's opinion will be swayed by the opinions of all Haligonians and not just a few. Heritage is important but a view from the citadel is not. I really look forward to future generations of Haligonians who have a more progressive attitude.

PS: The petition in favour of the convention centre has a lot more signatures than the one against. I hope that this information can be forwarded to the right people. I am happy to see Mayor Kelly supports this project, and I feel that he wants the city to move forward.

PRO: http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/support-the-new-halifax-convention-centre-construction/signatures.html
ANTI: http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?ourview&1

[Empire]

That being said, their massing models that they have on their website are wrong - they assume that grade at the Nova Site is the same as Brunswick - it's not; grade slopes down. The building design is responsive to approved viewplanes and from my estimates of the elevations of the max height of the ramparts and the building height ---------------- I'd highly suggest that you organize your own press Get people talking about this...that's what this issue needs!


Their MMMS - 'mickey mouse massing sketch' is fudged or just wrong and they don't know it or it is an intentional slip. The hotel on Argyle id 18fl the office building on Grafton St. is 14fl. When the grade is accounted for the two buildings would have a similar roof height sbove sea level. The 14fl. office building may appear a bit taller from the citadel because it would be closer but not as they have shown. I also suspect the width is fudged in their sketch to puroposely block Georges Island. You would think that they would have a real rendering done if they really believed their own MMMS results.

[halifaxboyns]

I was quite happy to sign the petition in favour - whether my name will be counted is another matter (since I'm in Calgary).

As to that massing model - it amazes me to what lengths these people will go to make people get upset.

I'd love to ask them why they want to save a view to an oil refinery? Plus, what is there really to see on George's island???

[someone123]

As others have pointed out, the camera position for that Save the View photo is not the same as the rampart viewpoint that is preserved by the view planes. The photo was deliberately taken partway down the hill and farther north so that the buildings appear larger and block George's Island. The Nova Centre buildings will not be in the view planes. To my knowledge, nothing proposed in the last ten years has been.

Much of the rest of their site is just wrong and/or irrelevant:

We are not going to have a green-collar economy if there is not a single choice for sustainability that the developers will be forced to take. In the new plan there is no increased green space or parks; no green building codes; no green energy use; and no sustainable transportation. Where will our kids play?

What a joke.

[Keith P.]

The comments on the anti petition site are really a lot of rubbish for the most part. A good number of them are the usual NDP rhetoric opposing P3 projects, etc. Another bunch seem to think that tourists come here to stand on Citadel Hill and gaze slack-jawed at the oil refinery. And then you have the usual bunch of academics, who really ought to know better, who seem to think that their cushy publicly-funded jobs can exist with downtown being grassed over and devoid of commercial activity. It really is quite sad to see the disconnect between what these people think and economic reality.

[alps]

Where will our kids play?

How about Citadel Hill, not 50 metres away? No "sustainable transportation"? Yeah, what's more sustainable and less car-dependent than building it out behind Dartmouth Crossing instead? :rolleyes:

Just the usual silly obstructionist misinformation typical of this camp...shame it actually carries some sway in this city, although I think more people are getting sick of it.

[David1gray]

:previous: completely agree. i mean come on, are these people really that anti-development? this is getting ridiculous

p.s. i also signed the petition. signature 760 i believe.

[fenwick16]

It is interesting to see the number of people who have moved to other parts of Canada who closely follow the Halifax thread and are interested in seeing the city move forward. Also, I have really started to see a more positive attitude coming from the residents of the Halifax area over the past 5-10 years. This is what prosperity can bring to the residents of Halifax; a sense of optimism for the future. It also means that people can raise families in the Halifax area and expect them to stay in the Halifax area when they have families of their own.

I don`t want to apply too much importance to this Nova Centre project, but I feel that if it proceeds it will indicate a step in the right direction. It also indicates that Rank Corporation has faith in the Halifax area economy.

[halifaxboyns]

It is interesting to see the number of people who have moved to other parts of Canada who closely follow the Halifax thread and are interested in seeing the city move forward. Also, I have really started to see a more positive attitude coming from the residents of the Halifax area over the past 5-10 years. This is what prosperity can bring to the residents of Halifax; a sense of optimism for the future. It also means that people can raise families in the Halifax area and expect them to stay in the Halifax area when they have families of their own.

I don`t want to apply too much importance to this Nova Centre project, but I feel that if it proceeds it will indicate a step in the right direction. It also indicates that Rank Corporation has faith in the Halifax area economy.

I follow it mainly because I am a planner by profession. While I don't deal with the building aspect of it out here in Calgary - it's always been my home to come home and deal with some of the challenges there.

I don't think a city like Halifax needs to think of itself as being challenged by geography. There are lots of opportunities; if you are willing to take a risk and actually go for it.

There are a lot of groups like these out here in Calgary, where there are a lot of community associations. They were upset on rules for houses - it's a house!?

But I like to see people talk about this stuff - no matter what side they are on because I remember how there was hardly any interest in the regional plan when it was being done except from students (which I was at the time), buildings, UDI, developers and then special interest groups like the HT.

I was so amazed by what Calgary went through for it's Municipal Development Plan (same thing as a City wide plan) - Plan It calgary. It was hugely talked about and I attended the big summit that they had, where some people were given the chance to build the future. It was great, symposiums and everything. Something I'd love to see copied for HRM when the time comes again.

[fenwick16]

This is a positive comment from the pro-convention-centre article: http://thechronicleherald.ca/Business/1172960.html . It is good to see statistics.

rdexter wrote:
The 2008 Meeting Professionals International (MPI) Canadian Economic Impact study shows the meetings and conventions industry in Canada is worth $32 billion in direct effect. When indirect and induced effects are included, the number balloons to $71 billion. The study also showed the meetings industry is worth $500 billion globally. Winning or losing even a fraction of that business would have a massive impact on hotels, stores, transportation, tourism, jobs and the tax base of Nova Scotia. We have a world class airport. We have a world class port. We desperately need a world class convention centre. MPI members are involved in attracting, managing and supplying big events to the region. They say a new convention centre will bring prosperity to the region and help revitalize downtown Halifax. MPI has launched a petition supporting the development of a new convention centre. The petition is being circulated on-line. There has already been a strong early response in favour of the new convention centre. www.MPIAtlanticChapter.org

[sdm]

As others have pointed out, the camera position for that Save the View photo is not the same as the rampart viewpoint that is preserved by the view planes. The photo was deliberately taken partway down the hill and farther north so that the buildings appear larger and block George's Island. The Nova Centre buildings will not be in the view planes. To my knowledge, nothing proposed in the last ten years has been.

Much of the rest of their site is just wrong and/or irrelevant:

We are not going to have a green-collar economy if there is not a single choice for sustainability that the developers will be forced to take. In the new plan there is no increased green space or parks; no green building codes; no green energy use; and no sustainable transportation. Where will our kids play?

What a joke.

Certainly is, because if they realized and read the RFP it indicated that the convention centre had to be LEED. Now is that possible, well thats another discussion.

I don't wish to place to much faith in this project, i just know what the developer and province are going through.

I know there is industry buzz stating that if this is a go(trade centre) buildings like international place, roy building, queens landing, and salters street are likely to be abandoned due to an over surplus of space and hotel rooms. Its highly possible this is the case as there is currently close to 2million square feet of office proposed for downtown. To give this a measure to compare to, that's more then total amount we currently have in the market for A class buildings (1801, Purdys, Founders Square, Summit Building)

[Empire]

I know there is industry buzz stating that if this is a go(trade centre) buildings like international place, roy building, queens landing, and salters street are likely to be abandoned due to an over surplus of space and hotel rooms. Its highly possible this is the case as there is currently close to 2million square feet of office proposed for downtown. To give this a measure to compare to, that's more then total amount we currently have in the market for A class buildings (1801, Purdys, Founders Square, Summit Building)

If buildings like international place, roy building, queens landing, and salters street want to bail because someone is building a real building then let them. IP has been on the books for ten years and there is no sign development in the near future. These projects have been hijacking valuable land for far too long. It may take a development like the Trade Centre to skake out the tire kickers....

[sdm]

If buildings like international place, roy building, queens landing, and salters street want to bail because someone is building a real building then let them. IP has been on the books for ten years and there is no sign development in the near future. These projects have been hijacking valuable land for far too long. It may take a development like the Trade Centre to skake out the tire kickers....

Its call supply and demand empire.

The trade centre would supply enough space for this market for at least 5-8 years on historical absorption rates. The latest rates show it will be longer.

Obviously you have no clue how developments and market demands work.

[someone123]

Absorption rates for the downtown are I think a little misleading because there has been so much read tape and so little good supply. A lot of the empty space is in older, smaller buildings and I could see some companies choose the downtown over the suburbs if there are a couple of new high-end buildings that are well-marketed. I don't believe in an "if you build it they will come" type attitude that expects every building to be filled, but I do believe that there is interplay between supply and demand.

I agree with Empire. No, there isn't demand for all of these, but we have a free market economy and risk and competition are a big part of it. There isn't a queue for new buildings. I will be happy with whatever developer starts actually building something major downtown, whether it's UG, IP, the convention centre, or the Salter site. Hopefully we can see two or three of those go forward over the next few years.

[sdm]

Absorption rates for the downtown are I think a little misleading because there has been so much read tape and so little good supply. A lot of the empty space is in older, smaller buildings and I could see some companies choose the downtown over the suburbs if there are a couple of new high-end buildings that are well-marketed. I don't believe in an "if you build it they will come" type attitude that expects every building to be filled, but I do believe that there is interplay between supply and demand.

I agree with Empire. No, there isn't demand for all of these, but we have a free market economy and risk and competition are a big part of it. There isn't a queue for new buildings. I will be happy with whatever developer starts actually building something major downtown, whether it's UG, IP, the convention centre, or the Salter site. Hopefully we can see two or three of those go forward over the next few years.

Correct the out migration out of the core is still continuing, and will likely continue even with new higher quality product. Most companies within the Halifax market are not willing to pay the high rental costs of new developments, or even the existing structures in the CBD. Then there is always the limited parking to factor in.

You are correct, competition is competition, and one has to expect (as a developer) that other products will come online. It is after all as you say a free market economy. There is a difference between this development and others private developments however.

Just to illustrate the numbers, the historical average absorption rate for Halifax market (all nodes, downtown and sub's) is roughly 80,000 square feet per year. In the last two - two qtrs we've seen lots of absorption in the burb's, but are seeing negative within the CBD. Most of the absorption is companies already located in the market moving around (out migration).

Hopefully attitudes will change and the market will welcome new developments, but the reality is that we can't build everything that is proposed (approved or not).

[fenwick16]

The petition in favour of the convention centre has a lot more signatures than the one against. This provides some hope for the future. In the past, it would have been mostly the anti-development groups that would have been involved.

Although the numbers keep changing, at this point (Saturday, March 20, 9:22 Atlantic Time) the numbers are 811 for and 543 against.

FOR: http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/support-the-new-halifax-convention-centre-construction/signatures.html
AGAINST: http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?ourview&1[/QUOTE]

[sdm]

The petition in favour of the convention centre has a lot more signatures than the one against. This provides some hope for the future. In the past, it would have been mostly the anti-development groups that would have been involved.

Although the numbers keep changing, at this point (Saturday, March 20, 9:22 Atlantic Time) the numbers are 811 for and 543 against.

FOR: http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/support-the-new-halifax-convention-centre-construction/signatures.html
AGAINST: http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?ourview&1[/QUOTE]

Some of the against comments are funny

[fenwick16]

Some of the against comments are funny

Yes, they are amusing. This one is typical:

Stop destroying the only beautiful city in Canada. NO MORE HIGH RISES IN DOWN TOWN Halifax, The down town of Ottawa is ruined and is forever a wet place as no sun falls on the side walks.

[Wishblade]

Some of the against comments are funny[/QUOTE]

Theres only one I agree with:

"let the people speak" :yes:

[sdm]

Yes, they are amusing. This one is typical:

Hahahah

How can you take someone seriously with comments like this

[sdm]

Some of the against comments are funny

Theres only one I agree with:

"let the people speak" :yes:[/QUOTE]

Yup, and like i said, its our money so lets see the facts clear and decide if we want our money going towards this. We might decicde that a new arena or other public venue may be money better spent.

I just want to see the facts for a change, not just statements without facts. If we are losing out it should be easy to prove.

[Empire]

Its call supply and demand empire.

The trade centre would supply enough space for this market for at least 5-8 years on historical absorption rates. The latest rates show it will be longer.

Obviously you have no clue how developments and market demands work.

I guess you are the market expert. So acording to your math if all of these other developments were under way then we would never not even be seeing a Trade Centre proposal. The point is, these other developments are a long way from breaking ground and if the Trade Centre starts and bumps some of them further down the road then that is called the early bird gets the worm whether it was because of gov. funding or not.

[sdm]

I guess you are the market expert. So acording to your math if all of these other developments were under way then we would never not even be seeing a Trade Centre proposal. The point is, these other developments are a long way from breaking ground and if the Trade Centre starts and bumps some of them further down the road then that is called early bird gets the worm whether it was because gov. funding or not.

Considering i've been in the development industry for over 20 years i do consider myself educated, but no one is an expert regardless of what they may tell you.

I am however fairly confident i know more of the situation then you do.

Your interpuation of the math is incorrect. The market cannot support multi developments at the same time based on the historical and current trends.

[fenwick16]

Considering i've been in the development industry for over 20 years i do consider myself educated, but no one is an expert regardless of what they may tell you.

I am however fairly confident i know more of the situation then you do.

Your interpuation of the math is incorrect. The market cannot support multi developments at the same time based on the historical and current trends.

There are quite a few optimists here on SSP. I hope that Halifax will grow and become a major city in the future. After all, it happened in places like Montreal, Boston, NY, etc. They were all much smaller at one time. I don't see why Halifax can't become a major city in the future (however, having a city the size of Toronto or NY probably isn't desirable in Nova Scotia, maybe a city the size of Ottawa would be sufficient).

[sdm]

There are quite a few optimists here on SSP. I hope that Halifax will grow and become a major city in the future. After all, it happened in places like Montreal, Boston, NY, etc. They were all much smaller at one time. I don't see why Halifax can't become a major city in the future (however, having a city the size of Toronto or NY probably isn't desirable in Nova Scotia, maybe a city the size of Ottawa would be sufficient).

Fenwick I share your optimism, but we need the buy in of all levels of government to push this city to what it can truly become.

Governments should be looking at what truly attracts business to locate to Halifax. Certainly recent discussions on tax increases in both provincial and municipal governments don't help that cause. I just wish the governments would focus more on finding ways to lower taxes, and promote us as an open and business friendly place to be. If business chose to locate here people will natural come in my opinion. We are of aging population and the long term sustainability is in jeopardy unless we grow this area, and fast.

The unfortunate problem is we are looking at projects like trade centre as the single greatest change to promote Halifax, but there are so many other larger influences that are considered.

[Empire]

Considering i've been in the development industry for over 20 years i do consider myself educated, but no one is an expert regardless of what they may tell you.

I am however fairly confident i know more of the situation then you do.

Your interpuation of the math is incorrect. The market cannot support multi developments at the same time based on the historical and current trends.

As long as your confidence is not pride you may do O.K. Your message is confusing. Are you for a trade centre c/w hotel and office building or do you want these other wanna be developments to wait until the vacancy rate is zero to start building so they can have their market share?

[Keith P.]

News on new trade centre coming soon, premier says

By DAVID JACKSON Provincial Reporter
Fri. Sep 4 - 4:46 AM

News about a new World Trade and Convention Centre in downtown Halifax is coming soon, Premier Darrell Dexter said Thursday.

Mr. Dexter said the project is one of many announced by the previous Tory government that has been under review.

"The trade and convention centre question is one that I’ve had a close look at," Mr. Dexter said after Thursday’s cabinet meeting.

"It is a matter that we’re still considering closely, and shortly we’ll have more news on it."



Note the date on this story.

Yet another broken promise.

[sdm]

As long as your confidence is not pride you may do O.K. Your message is confusing. Are you for a trade centre c/w hotel and office building or do you want these other wanna be developments to wait until the vacancy rate is zero to start building so they can have their market share?

My message is not confusing, just stating we can't expect everyone of the other developments to proceed and that if this one gets a jump start it could delay or kill others.

I recently read how Mayor Kelly thinks others will go if this goes (trade centre). He is completely out to lunch to think such. It has to do with market conditions, of which would need to improve beyond anything Halifax has seen. I am positive things will change, but the change required is unrealistic. There are tremendous restriction on private development when it comes to lending, such as 80% preleasing requirements and for hotels a minimum of 50% equity.

Therefore I do not support subsidizing a development to allow it to proceed over others, especially when it comes to public money. Unfortunatley i believe this could be the case for this development.

As for the for or against. I am pro trade centre as long as the numbers support the investment. I will be honest i don't care for the current proposal because of its lack luster design, and more the reason its location. But those are not true grounds not to support it as there is no rules governing design or location for this project.

[Wishblade]

Analyst: Centre will pay off


By BILL POWER Business Reporter
Sat. Mar 20 - 4:54 AM

Using the current state of the economy as an argument against a new convention centre for Halifax is a huge mistake, an industry analyst said Friday.

Michael Hughes, vice-president of consulting and research for Tradeshow Week in the United States, said the convention industry mirrors the state of the economy, and all significant indicators suggest a rebound of the Canadian and U.S. economies will be underway by the end of this year.

"Halifax would need only to attract a handful of new events each year to justify the investment in a new convention centre," Hughes said.

In fact, by the time construction was finished, the economy would be back to normal and the city would immediately begin reaping rewards from the investment, he said.

"There has been some sluggishness across the board in the market segment the facility in Halifax caters to," he said. "There is also lots of evidence indicating this segment will be one of the first to bounce back with the economy improving."

The Coalition to Save the View from Citadel Hill, a group that opposes the convention centre project because of the two highrise towers it includes, used statistics from Tradeshow Weekly to back up its argument that the convention industry in North America has been in decline since the end of the 1990s.

Hughes, who has visited Halifax, said the numbers the coalition used in its presentation at a news conference Thursday referred to some of the biggest conventions at the largest venues in North America and really do not apply to Halifax.

"Halifax is a Tier 3 facility that had some success attracting Tier 2 events," he said. "With a new centre, the city would be a serious contender for more Tier 2 events."

Tradeshow Weekly publishes statistics reflecting attendance and exhibitor participation at the top 200 Tier 1 conventions in the U.S. and the top 50 in Canada.

"These are the some of the world’s biggest industry events that can attract tens of thousands of visitors," Hughes said. "No offence, but Halifax does not play in this league."

The numbers do indicate a significant decrease in exhibitor participation at big shows, which he said reflects the state of the economy.

"This is less of an issue with smaller venues, where there is more of a focus on amenities required for educational seminars and that sort of thing," Hughes said.

He said professional development conferences and industry association meetings are the sort of events a smaller centre like Halifax wants to attract, and it is in this context that the province’s proposed $100-million investment in a new, larger convention centre makes sense.

( bpower@herald.ca)

[fenwick16]

:previous: Great find Wishblade. It seems like this convention centre could very well make Halifax a serious Tier 2 destination.

Based on what I have read, Tier 2 would include cities such as Ottawa and Calgary, whereas Tier 1 would be Toronto, NY, Vancouver, etc. Thus Halifax would be on a more level footing with cities such as Ottawa. I wonder if Halifax might even get a tier 1 event once in a while?

[halifaxboyns]

There is huge talk of expanding the Telus Convention Centre here in Calgary - because of it's size limits. I remember when i first moved here (and visited) I kept thinking - jesus it's a huge monster of a convention centre. I went to a Westjet party there (because I was dating someone from WJ) - it was a huge party; they had every bay on the upper floor! I remember doing my SMU grad at the WTC in Halifax and it had all the bays and it was - so small in comparrison!

If Halifax could end up on the same level is Calgary - I can say honestly; you'll be getting more conventions.

When I go get coffee at Tim's, I have to walk past the the convention centre and it's constantly busy. If Halifax could even do a fraction of that level; you guys would be good to go!

[DigitalNinja]

Note the date on this story.

Yet another broken promise.

Did you really expect more from the NDP.
The only reason they got voted in was because of obscene promises.
And the fact that people who don't contribute to anything want everything.
Funny how that works.

[fenwick16]

There is huge talk of expanding the Telus Convention Centre here in Calgary - because of it's size limits. I remember when i first moved here (and visited) I kept thinking - jesus it's a huge monster of a convention centre. I went to a Westjet party there (because I was dating someone from WJ) - it was a huge party; they had every bay on the upper floor! I remember doing my SMU grad at the WTC in Halifax and it had all the bays and it was - so small in comparrison!

If Halifax could end up on the same level is Calgary - I can say honestly; you'll be getting more conventions.

When I go get coffee at Tim's, I have to walk past the the convention centre and it's constantly busy. If Halifax could even do a fraction of that level; you guys would be good to go!

If you consider conventions in Canada, and just consider the two cities, based on a destination, then I think Halifax can get many of the same conventions as Calgary (with the new convention centre in Halifax). Especially since Halifax is closer to the large population cities such as Montreal, Ottawa and Toronto. If you consider Tier 2 international conventions, then Halifax is also closer to the heavily populated east coast. Halifax does quite well in attracting conventions and I feel that it will do much better with the new convention centre.

[fenwick16]

Based on what I have read about the new Halifax Convention Centre (60,000 square feet exhibit hall, with 300,000 square feet overall of meeting space) it will be very competitive in the Tier 2 convention market (examples: Calgary, Winnipeg, Edmonton and Ottawa). I found the following links to the convention centres in these 4 cities:

Ottawa: http://ottawaconventioncentre.com/en/exhibiting/facility-overview
Winnipeg: http://www.wcc.mb.ca/aboutthecentre.php
Calgary: http://www.calgarytelusconventioncentre.net/
Edmonton: http://www.edmonton.com/shaw-conference-centre/about-scc.aspx

I really hope that this goes ahead. This is an area in which Halifax can compete with much bigger cities since Halifax is close to a largely populated geographic area, has a good airport, has many historic sites, is in a scenic province and has a record of attracting such conventions.

PS: The 1.25 million square foot number for this complex includes the office and hotel footage.

[spaustin]

Just to illustrate the numbers, the historical average absorption rate for Halifax market (all nodes, downtown and sub's) is roughly 80,000 square feet per year. In the last two - two qtrs we've seen lots of absorption in the burb's, but are seeing negative within the CBD. Most of the absorption is companies already located in the market moving around (out migration).

Hopefully attitudes will change and the market will welcome new developments, but the reality is that we can't build everything that is proposed (approved or not).

Exactly! One thing that seems to crop up over and over in these forums is hostility to the heritage crowd and a blaming of Pacey and his crew for the lack of development downtown. They no doubt played a part in delaying projects and possibly derailing a few, but they're just an easy target. The reality is council has said no on only a few rare occassions. Nothing has been built Downtown in nearly 20 years because it was overbuilt and then the recession and growth of the burbs knocked all the profit out of the market for new office. If the market could support it, International Place would have proceeded long ago. The fact that it hasn't tells the story, there just hasn't been the demand in Downtown Halifax to support building new office developments. The reports I read at work indicate that rental rates have only know recovered to what they were before 1989. What we should really do is rethink what Downtown Halifax should be. Do we really need a largely office CBD? If International Place or Nova Centre were to go ahead, it would be nice to see the Roy, Discovery Centre, UG or Salters become more residential. Halifax's future might be more in the European style; office out on the edge with a dense, but mixed city centre.

[fenwick16]

Exactly! One thing that seems to crop up over and over in these forums is hostility to the heritage crowd and a blaming of Pacey and his crew for the lack of development downtown. They no doubt played a part in delaying projects and possibly derailing a few, but they're just an easy target. The reality is council has said no on only a few rare occassions. Nothing has been built Downtown in nearly 20 years because it was overbuilt and then the recession and growth of the burbs knocked all the profit out of the market for new office. If the market could support it, International Place would have proceeded long ago. The fact that it hasn't tells the story, there just hasn't been the demand in Downtown Halifax to support building new office developments. The reports I read at work indicate that rental rates have only know recovered to what they were before 1989. What we should really do is rethink what Downtown Halifax should be. Do we really need a largely office CBD? If International Place or Nova Centre were to go ahead, it would be nice to see the Roy, Discovery Centre, UG or Salters become more residential. Halifax's future might be more in the European style; office out on the edge with a dense, but mixed city centre.

Having more office space in the suburbs and Dartmouth would help to even out the rush hour traffic since more people from the peninsula will travel to the suburbs instead of downtown. Also more people in the suburbs won't have to travel downtown but can stay in the suburbs to go to work. For example, in Chicago the rush hour traffic has shifted so it goes in both directions during rush hour traffic instead of almost all going downtown.

The International Place could be a mix of office/hotel and residential. The Roy development could also be residential. There are already plans for the Discovery Centre, UG and Salters to be residential. There is also the Alexander tower that I think has been approved as a scaled down version (21 storeys?). If all this residential goes ahead in the downtown core then the downtown will also be able to support more retail space.

Having the new convention centre in the downtown core will bring visitors to the downtown where most of the restaurants and hotel rooms are. So it is probably best for the convention centre to go ahead first instead of IP

[planarchy]

Exactly! One thing that seems to crop up over and over in these forums is hostility to the heritage crowd and a blaming of Pacey and his crew for the lack of development downtown. They no doubt played a part in delaying projects and possibly derailing a few, but they're just an easy target. The reality is council has said no on only a few rare occassions. Nothing has been built Downtown in nearly 20 years because it was overbuilt and then the recession and growth of the burbs knocked all the profit out of the market for new office. If the market could support it, International Place would have proceeded long ago. The fact that it hasn't tells the story, there just hasn't been the demand in Downtown Halifax to support building new office developments. The reports I read at work indicate that rental rates have only know recovered to what they were before 1989. What we should really do is rethink what Downtown Halifax should be. Do we really need a largely office CBD? If International Place or Nova Centre were to go ahead, it would be nice to see the Roy, Discovery Centre, UG or Salters become more residential. Halifax's future might be more in the European style; office out on the edge with a dense, but mixed city centre.

Well said. While the arguments on the part of the Heritage trust are overly simplistic and often counter-productive, the fact is that there are at least some sound arguments for it not to proceed using the financial framework proposed. And on top of that, its current programming is not as complementary to the surrounding streets as many seem to think. There are other very reasonable places to put this - and still on the edge of the downtown core - that can offer much more to those who actually live in the city, while offering a new, well-placed venue for those visiting for conventions.

I also think that both location and design must be more than afterthoughts in approving large scale urban projects that are capable of having long-term and far-reaching benefits and consequences on a city. While things seem to take forever to happen in this city, when things do go ahead, they often seem like impulse moves with little thought given to the possible future evolution of the city. While we can't predict anything, we can sure do better at developing and planning in a manner that attempts to structure and guide future development, resulting in potential savings in the long-term for the city.

[fenwick16]

From what I remember, there was a request for proposals and the Rank proposal was the one selected from several. When the renderings were posted the reaction on this form was almost overwhelmingly in favour. Also the results of the two petitions show that people want this proposal. Although the numbers keep changing, at this point (Saturday, March 20, 7:10 PM Atlantic Time) the numbers are 823 for and 545 against. This is a clear indicator that this is a good proposal and location.

FOR: http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/support-the-new-halifax-convention-centre-construction/signatures.html
AGAINST: http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?ourview&1[/QUOTE]

[planarchy]

From what I remember, there was a request for proposals and the Rank proposal was the one selected from several. When the renderings were posted the reaction on this form was almost overwhelmingly in favour. Also the results of the two petitions show that people want this proposal. Although the numbers keep changing, at this point (Saturday, March 20, 7:10 PM Atlantic Time) the numbers are 823 for and 545 against. This is a clear indicator that this is a good proposal and location.

FOR: http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/support-the-new-halifax-convention-centre-construction/signatures.html
AGAINST: http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?ourview&1

Petitions are far from clear indicators. Not trying to sound too harsh, but they are generally a completely meaningless form of civic action and produce no results.:sly:

[fenwick16]

Petitions are far from clear indicators. Not trying to sound too harsh, but they are generally a completely meaningless form of civic action and produce no results.:sly:

I agree completely the Save our View petition is a completely meaningless form of civic action.

[Dmajackson]

From what I remember, there was a request for proposals and the Rank proposal was the one selected from several. When the renderings were posted the reaction on this form was almost overwhelmingly in favour. Also the results of the two petitions show that people want this proposal. Although the numbers keep changing, at this point (Saturday, March 20, 7:10 PM Atlantic Time) the numbers are 823 for and 545 against. This is a clear indicator that this is a good proposal and location.

FOR: http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/support-the-new-halifax-convention-centre-construction/signatures.html
AGAINST: http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?ourview&1[/QUOTE]

I've signed the pro-petition (the first one). :)

[mcmcclassic]

:previous:

Me too, I really hope that a decision is made on this project though. I find a lot of projects around here get put off for such long time that they just get forgotten about and abandoned.

[hfx_chris]

Petitions are far from clear indicators. Not trying to sound too harsh, but they are generally a completely meaningless form of civic action and produce no results.:sly:
Absolutely. I always get a kick seeing MPs in the House of Commons standing to present a petition. I'm pretty sure later in the day the clerk just shreds them all anyway :haha:

[fenwick16]

The numbers are currently 828 FOR and 546 AGAINST. Watching the results is almost as much fun as watching election results, or watching the Blue Jays beat the Yankees. (Especially since the Heritage people almost always seem to win in Halifax).

FOR: http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/support-the-new-halifax-convention-centre-construction/signatures.html
AGAINST: http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?ourview&1[/QUOTE]

[spaustin]

A letter in today's Herald from Bernie Smith. Pretty reasonable in terms of his reservations about the current proposal.


Centre of contention

Sun. Mar 21 - 4:53 AM
I have read Ralph Surette’s column for years, and I generally agree with him; this time I don’t ("The convention centre illusion: We need to talk," March 13 column). First, his conclusions appear to be largely based on the U.S. experience. The U.S. has generally suffered more as a result of the (hopefully) now receding economic meltdown than has Canada. To apply U.S. experience to a Canadian situation without careful provisions is wrong. To apply it to Halifax, which has a good convention business that is progressively being lost because of the size of our existing 30-year-old facility, would be doubly wrong. There is certainly a question of how large the proposed centre should be, but the present centre cannot accommodate its natural market. We knew that 12 years ago. Goodness knows how much damage a steady loss of convention business has inflicted on our economy over the past dozen years.

Frankly, I had hoped the new convention centre would provide the catalyst for redevelopment of the Cogswell interchange, and I also am not an advocate of high buildings in that area of Halifax’s downtown. I am prepared to reconcile to some height, presumably to ensure the development’s viability, in order to avoid the horrible prospect of a huge vacant moonscape from Argyle almost to the Citadel. Since this development is outside the legislated viewplanes from Citadel Hill, Ralph is wrong to claim it "will block part of the viewplanes from Citadel Hill." If we were proposing to protect the whole 360° view, then we would not have established viewplanes in the past. Argue that height has to be carefully examined, and that it is frequently undesirable in our downtown, and he will have me onside. This particular project was specifically sanctioned and approved by city council outside the guidelines of HRM by Design, presumably to provide for its viability. HRM by Design would give it nine floors. Discussing that might be helpful. Mis-stating the situation does not add to a useful debate.


Bernard Smith, manager, Spring Garden Area Business Association

[someone123]

To apply U.S. experience to a Canadian situation without careful provisions is wrong. To apply it to Halifax, which has a good convention business that is progressively being lost because of the size of our existing 30-year-old facility, would be doubly wrong. There is certainly a question of how large the proposed centre should be, but the present centre cannot accommodate its natural market.

This is a good point. A lot of the statistics about declining conference attendance across North America and so on is not directly relevant to this development. The crucial piece of information is whether or not this facility can justify the cost of its construction by attracting conferences that would not have otherwise come to the city.

Partly this depends on the overall global economy, but it has way more to do with the city itself. How many conferences currently come? How desirable is the city? How big is it? Halifax barely hosts anything when in reality it could be a solid second-tier conference city because it's attractive, has a major airport, is a regional centre, and has lots of local universities. If this proposal were for an LA-style million square foot building I'd consider it unlikely to justify its expense, but the scale of building proposed seems roughly at the level where it's tailored to handle pent up demand and lost opportunities. This is totally different from "build it and they will come" type projects.

It's really too bad because I think there's a very negative Maritime attitude that expense is always best avoided and it's better to do without. In reality there are big hidden costs to operating with infrastructure deficits or stifling progress. You never see the people or businesses who would have come to your city, and in Halifax's case I think there are a lot of those.

I agree about the Cogswell interchange and I have complained before about closed HRM processes, but given the advanced stage of this project I think it would be better to work productively on improving the existing proposal rather than resort to "Save the View" style scuttling attempts.

[halifaxboyns]

Halifax has a lot going for it in terms of being able to attract conferences, I agree with that and I do see this project as putting it on the same level as Calgary or Toronto for space and Tier 2 conferences.

Where I think Calgary is different is the types of conferences attracted. Most come here due in part to the oil industry and the various spin off industries; that's the pre-dominant type of conference here in Calgary - where as Halifax could get really anything.

Halifax's location makes it very well positioned for conferences from Europe or the US. The transportation links (rail, air) are pretty good and the airport seems to be slowly adding new destinations (which will continue so long as Halifax keeps growing).

The article posted was very well balanced - he points out I think the critical flaw in the 'save the view' argument; which is they want the 360 degree view saved; which is not what the viewplane rules were intended to do. They were intended to protect specific views and then limit those outside of a viewplane to the rampart heights (if I'm wrong about the last part; please tell me - that's how I understood it).

[fenwick16]

The article posted was very well balanced - he points out I think the critical flaw in the 'save the view' argument; which is they want the 360 degree view saved; which is not what the viewplane rules were intended to do. They were intended to protect specific views and then limit those outside of a viewplane to the rampart heights (if I'm wrong about the last part; please tell me - that's how I understood it).

This is true except the Heritage Trust people have been effective in opposing new buildings throughout the downtown even where viewplanes bylaws did not exist. The viewplanes bylaws are now secondary in importance to HRMbyDesign which has imposed far more restrictive height controls than what the viewplanes bylaws previously allowed. So now and in the future, height is governed by the HRMbyDesign resulting design manual ( http://www.halifax.ca/capitaldistrict/documents/DHLUBandDesignManual.pdf ). Viewplanes bylaws are a thing of the past, Downtown Halifax Land Use By-law issued in 2009 is now the law (resulting from HRMbyDesign).

The Heritage Trust people got most of what they wanted regarding height control in the new bylaws but, as always, are unwilling to compromise and allow the convention centre which was not in a viewplane previously and is allowed according to the new Downtown Halifax Land Use By-law. I would really like to see Mayor Kelly tell these people to take a long hike on a short pier.

[halifaxboyns]

This is true except the Heritage Trust people have been effective in opposing new buildings throughout the downtown even where viewplanes bylaws did not exist. The viewplanes bylaws are now secondary in importance to HRMbyDesign which has imposed far more restrictive height controls than what the viewplanes bylaws previously allowed. So now and in the future, height is governed by the HRMbyDesign resulting design manual ( http://www.halifax.ca/capitaldistrict/documents/DHLUBandDesignManual.pdf ). Viewplanes bylaws are a thing of the past, Downtown Halifax Land Use By-law issued in 2009 is now the law (resulting from HRMbyDesign).

The Heritage Trust people got most of what they wanted regarding height control in the new bylaws but, as always, are unwilling to compromise and allow the convention centre which was not in a viewplane previously and is allowed according to the new Downtown Halifax Land Use By-law. I would really like to see Mayor Kelly tell these people to take a long hike on a short pier.

Weren't the viewplanes encorporated into HbD? That's what I thought; because they weren't abolished; just moved into this new Bylaw.

I agree with you that groups that continually want more and more and more; sometimes need to be told. My only suggestion for Mayor Kelly would be to wait and do it either when he knows he's not running again; or when his last term will be.

But if he were to do that; it would be a very interesting thing to watch. I got to watch the longest standing Alderman in Calgary take several sizeable chunks out of a bunch of NIMBY's the other day at City Council here; it was very interesting.

[fenwick16]

Weren't the viewplanes encorporated into HbD? That's what I thought; because they weren't abolished; just moved into this new Bylaw.

This was what I thought also. However, I was very surprised when I saw the new bylaws; the only place that rampart maximum height now exists is in the Scotia Square/Cogswell Interchange and 1801 Hollis/TD Bank blocks (and this is post bonus height). You might be surprised by the new height limits: pages 55 and 56 of 141 (pdf files pages, not the document page numbers). In spite of all the talk about having maximum density downtown, they instead decided to go with a more livable city (i.e. lower height). This sounds good, but I wonder if there will be sufficient profit margins to entice developers to build downtown with these height limits. Only time will tell.

[halifaxboyns]

This was what I thought also. However, I was very surprised when I saw the new bylaws; the only place that rampart maximum height now exists is in the Scotia Square/Cogswell Interchange and 1801 Hollis/TD Bank blocks (and this is post bonus height). You might be surprised by the new height limits: pages 55 and 56 of 141 (pdf files pages, not the document page numbers). In spite of all the talk about having maximum density downtown, they instead decided to go with a more livable city (i.e. lower height). This sounds good, but I wonder if there will be sufficient profit margins to entice developers to build downtown with these height limits. Only time will tell.

I will have to take a look.
The great thing about a land use bylaw is that it's a living and breathing thing - it constantly evolves. So while HbD may have a vision for now; if something changes then the document can evolve.

For example; friends of my who do economic forcasts see Halifax being a place for a lot of growth if oil goes back up over $100/barrel because of the industries that fix the rigs, etc. Plus considering that HRM has the major transportation links, I think that some of the major oil firms would rather invest in offices in Halifax, versus SJ's. If his analysis holds even slightly correct, population and economic growth would go up and probably lend to a review of HbD if there was a need for bigger offices.

Just guessing though...

[Empire]

This was what I thought also. However, I was very surprised when I saw the new bylaws; the only place that rampart maximum height now exists is in the Scotia Square/Cogswell Interchange and 1801 Hollis/TD Bank blocks (and this is post bonus height). You might be surprised by the new height limits: pages 55 and 56 of 141 (pdf files pages, not the document page numbers). In spite of all the talk about having maximum density downtown, they instead decided to go with a more livable city (i.e. lower height). This sounds good, but I wonder if there will be sufficient profit margins to entice developers to build downtown with these height limits. Only time will tell.

The rampart height limit is unclear. No one knows for sure where it is measured from. The theory is that it is the centre of parade square. I have not seen where this viewplane could affect. HxD should have had sketches done in the vertical plane showing the graduated height limit for this extra viewplane. If one were to project a line from the centre of parade square then graze the citadel rampart in the direction of Purdy's Wharf and over Purdy's I would be willing to bet the height at Purdy's would be 35 storeys or more and 25 storeys at Scotia Sq. It is amazing that no one has defined this. I have an idea that HT knows it is higher than 20 storeys in the Cogswell area. HxD should have defined it and based the height limit in the Cogswell area on that result. Just one of the many flaws in the HxD doc.

[halifaxboyns]

The rampart height limit is unclear. No one knows for sure where it is measured from. The theory is that it is the centre of parade square. I have not seen where this viewplane could affect. HxD should have had sketches done in the vertical plane showing the graduated height limit for this extra viewplane. If one were to project a line from the centre of parade square then graze the citadel rampart in the direction of Purdy's Wharf and over Purdy's I would be willing to bet the height at Purdy's would be 35 storeys or more and 25 storeys at Scotia Sq. It is amazing that no one has defined this. I have an idea that HT knows it is higher than 20 storeys in the Cogswell area. HxD should have defined it and based the height limit in the Cogswell area on that result. Just one of the many flaws in the HxD doc.

That's a very good point; I honestly don't remember what the rule was. This is where a diagram in HbD would've been great, but often lawyers don't like that because if it's challenged in court they could take a very literal (and not flexible) interpretation of it.

[halifaxboyns]

On a seperate thought; I just came back from the Calgary Telus Convention Centre (I had some meetings there) and I'm going to try to post some pictures to give you guys a look at what Calgary has. The convention centre is apparently 2 parts, the main complex on the north side of 8th Ave SE and the south side (which is part of the Glenbow Museum complex) but I couldn't believe how many really small conference spaces there were! It's a very adaptive space, but there were lots of Oil and Gas presentations going on today!

[fenwick16]

This story was in metronews.ca ( http://www.metronews.ca/halifax/local/article/484888--mayor-ups-pressure-on-province-to-back-downtown-development ). I have to believe that Mayor Kelly is pushing this as stated. Maybe be has decided to become tough with the Heritage groups who keep delaying progress and jobs in the HRM. Since this is already in the Halifax Land Use Manual, I assume that it will not have to be approved by the HRM council. However, the HRM portion of funding would likely have to be approved. It would be good to know which councillors support it.


PAUL MCLEOD
METRO HALIFAX
March 23, 2010 1:29 a.m.

Though often one to mince words, Mayor Peter Kelly isn’t holding back on pressuring the province to help build a new convention centre in Halifax.

Kelly said yesterday it would make no sense to let the centre die for the sake of what he estimates to be $30 million to $50 million.

“This is one that’s a no-brainer,” Kelly said. “We need to not lose focus and make sure the place gets built.”

The province is still deliberating on whether to support the 1.4-million-square-foot facility estimated to cost between $300 million and $350 million.

But Kelly said that figure includes the private company costs of an 18-floor hotel, 14 floors of class A office space, a floor of retail stores and an event plaza. He said the government tab for two floors of convention centre space would be in the $100-million to $130-million range.

Split evenly between the three levels of government, he said the bill would come to $30 million to $50 million each. Nothing to sneeze at, but Kelly said it makes financial sense when you look at increased convention revenue and spinoffs like heightened property value.

“It’s a lot of money to lose as well, if it’s not built,” he said.

“It’s extremely important. We have to make sure we keep our eye on the ball for the future.”

The province will decide April 19 whether to move ahead with the Argyle Street development.

One question mark that remains is the federal stake. Nova Scotia Infrastructure Renewal Minister Bill Estabrooks said last week there has been no federal commitment of cash.

Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency spokesman David Harrigan said yesterday his agency wouldn’t be involved.

“Just the sheer size of the project would mean it wouldn’t be something we’d be getting involved in,” he said. “It’s just well beyond our programming.”

As a public-private partnership, the centre would likely qualify for funding from Infrastructure Canada, but whether it would be enough to foot one-third of the bill isn’t known.

[Empire]

If the 14 fl. office building on the old Midtown site was turned 90 deg. then you would see more of George's Island from the entrance to the citadel. This was the orientation for the midtown hotel and something that really should be considered.

[someone123]

If the 14 fl. office building on the old Midtown site was turned 90 deg. then you would see more of George's Island from the entrance to the citadel. This was the orientation for the midtown hotel and something that really should be considered.

Part of the issue is that the block isn't very wide, and this development would be clearly worse if it were to combine the two blocks. It is true that the midtown was narrower but there was always the possibility of another wider tower on the lot to the south.

I personally don't think that this view from the Citadel is terribly important; there's more of a view to the south and, historically speaking, the Citadel was designed to deal with land attacks, not attacks from the harbour.

[Hali_user]

On a seperate thought; I just came back from the Calgary Telus Convention Centre (I had some meetings there) and I'm going to try to post some pictures to give you guys a look at what Calgary has. The convention centre is apparently 2 parts, the main complex on the north side of 8th Ave SE and the south side (which is part of the Glenbow Museum complex) but I couldn't believe how many really small conference spaces there were! It's a very adaptive space, but there were lots of Oil and Gas presentations going on today!

The Calgary Convention Center is the only the 7th largest in Canada. It is full all the time though. Just for for reference Calgary is looking at expanding the convention center as well as it is not able to handle its current needs.

http://www.centrecitytalk.com/my_weblog/2009/02/calgary-convention-centre-hopes-to-triple-in-size.html

http://www.joconl.com/article/id32792

[halifaxboyns]

The Calgary Convention Center is the only the 7th largest in Canada. It is full all the time though. Just for for reference Calgary is looking at expanding the convention center as well as it is not able to handle its current needs.

http://www.centrecitytalk.com/my_weblog/2009/02/calgary-convention-centre-hopes-to-triple-in-size.html

http://www.joconl.com/article/id32792

There have been a number of options they've talked about - because the current site is quite constrained. One option I've heard is building it above the CP train tracks - which would be interesting.

But getting back to Nova Centre; I'd like to see city council (for once) when considering a Development Agreement - really ask design questions. I don't know if they can, but I'd like to see that happen. Personally, if I were a councillor, I'd probably ask them to change the location of one of the towers like was suggested previously; to help the view from the hill.

One of the great things about the process out here is that design really has a lot of consideration. Calgary's Planning Commision approves all of the major buildings here in Calgary - in addition to rezonings. So when they apply for permit approval - it's reviewed and dealt with by a planner, but then the commission grills the planner (and the applicant and their reps) and can recommend changes, approve it or refuse it (like an approving authority). My favorite was a recent office tower; they fired it back to staff requiring changes because they didn't like some of the design features. HRM should start doing that more.

[someone123]

Some councillors have made design suggestions in the past but the ones I've heard have been almost universally bad, or at least produced bad results given project constraints. Many ask for things likes larger setbacks or faux heritage decoration glued on to modern buildings.

At the end of the day I think we have to be realistc about the expertise of the people who sit on council as well as the limitations of design by committee. I am happy that HbD has design guidelines and I think that is the best way to get good designs for simpler projects. Expert architects, planners, and engineers should be brought in for larger projects.

[Halifax Hillbilly]

At the end of the day I think we have to be realistc about the expertise of the people who sit on council as well as the limitations of design by committee. I am happy that HbD has design guidelines and I think that is the best way to get good designs for simpler projects. Expert architects, planners, and engineers should be brought in for larger projects.

This site is exempt from HRMbyDesign's height limit, or could at least be thought of as a very big exception. Would this project, being a government project and very much a special case, be subject to design review? If so I think it could only be a good thing considering the size and scope of the project and importance of the site.

[fenwick16]

I personally don't think that this view from the Citadel is terribly important; there's more of a view to the south and, historically speaking, the Citadel was designed to deal with land attacks, not attacks from the harbour.

I agree completely with someone123, this view from the Citadel is not important (and in fact was not within a viewplane). I liked this project right from the first time that I saw it and I still think that this is a great project. I would like to see it built as it is. Based on the comments when the renderings first came out, many others also liked it.

I thought that this project was already in the detailed design phase of the project.

[fenwick16]

Another Save our View story, this time pretending to be in favour of a convention centre ( http://thechronicleherald.ca/Opinion/1173690.html ). I am becoming more and more convinced that this is one more project that is going to be scuttled, this time in order to save a view of the Dartmouth refinery.

We need a new convention centre

By ALLAN LYNCH
Wed. Mar 24 - 4:53 AM


The last few weeks have seen a number of people who aren’t familiar with the Canadian meetings industry comment on the economics of a new convention centre for Halifax.

For the last 18 years, I’ve written about this industry for magazines in Canada and the United States. In Canada, this industry spends in excess of $9 billion a year.

In the last two years, because of the United States’ wonky economics, the industry has taken a hit and been unfairly disparaged by people who really don’t know what’s going on.

In the industry, it’s known as the AIG effect, based on the poor optics of insurance executives filmed at corporate functions after receiving taxpayer bailouts. What no one explained was that these events were contracted for long before the economy soured and would have to be paid for whether or not anyone attended.

An example of this impact occurred last January, when a national conference in Vancouver was cancelled. The conference price tag was $1.5 million, but the cancellation penalties amounted to $1.2 million. That would seem like a $300,000 savings. It wasn’t. The company still had to get their diverse sales force together, so one meeting was replaced by a series of four regional meetings, which meant paying for more travel, more meetings space, and having key people away from the office for longer periods. It was a false economy.

In Ralph Surette’s March 13th column in the Herald, he quoted Heywood Saunders, a professor of urban planning at the University of Texas, who asked why Halifax would succeed in this business when other destinations are suffering, and why businesses would choose Halifax over Ottawa, Niagara Falls and other destinations.

Valid questions. But what the professor doesn’t seem to know is the nature of the Canadian association market. Whatever the economic temperature, associations still have to meet. And Canada is rich in associations. Over 600 have head offices in Ottawa. To be democratic to their membership, these associations rotate their business across Canada. In any one year a destination can be bidding to win a share of 120 to 150 events. I’ve spoken to planners who have booked their meeting space for 2013, 2016 and are trying to nail down 2018. This is an industry that takes the long view to business.

Sadly for Halifax, a number of these groups have outgrown our venues and find themselves unwillingly limited to meeting in Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver. They want to go to other cities, but can’t.

Back when there was still a Reform Party of Canada, their corporate planner considered Halifax for their national convention. While the World Trade Centre had space for their formal meetings, there was no space capable of hosting their meals. Meals would have to held in the same ballroom as the business meetings. That meant losing several hours each day, and thousands of dollars in additional costs, to constantly tear down and set up the room.

Time is money, and groups want a seamless transition between functions. They can’t unleash 2,000 delegates into downtown Halifax at lunch time and expect everyone back in an hour for work. It has to be done in-house.

As for why a group would choose Halifax? Well, we used to have statistics proving that attendance was five-to-six-per-cent higher in coastal cities like Halifax or Vancouver. The seaside has more appeal for landlocked delegates than yet another business trip to the cement canyons of downtown Toronto.

The professor made reference to the decline in business in places like Las Vegas. Even with a decline, Vegas welcomed over a million conference goers last year. But Vegas’ problems are unique to it: it has a frivolous reputation in austere times; the new U.S. president made disparaging remarks (since withdrawn) about the city which frightened groups away; and the airline industry reduced the number of flights servicing the city by 15 per cent (in 2009 there were 369,767 fewer airline seats flying into that market).

As for those who believe the future is in cyber meetings, this technology has been around for 15 years and not caught on. It works for a short, tightly managed, in-house meeting, but doesn’t allow for productive networking and sales that come from face-to-face meetings. Nor does it build client relationships which are vital for business.

If face-to-face wasn’t important, there would be no need for G8 meetings or the Davos World Economic Forum which attracts 27 heads of state and 1,000 CEOs.

The Canadian economy is much different from the American economy and our industry is different from theirs. While we have suffered, it’s mostly been the hiccup effect of what has happened south of the border. American groups are now looking at ROI, return on investment, for their meetings. That’s been the driving force for Canadians for over a decade.

Do we need a new convention centre? Yes. Do we need one with a hotel and office towers attached? I don’t know.

I am one of those who worry about losing the view from the Citadel. I think most Nova Scotians assume they know what the view looks like these days, but how many Haligonians and city councillors have been to the Citadel in the last five years? Before we agree to lose what’s left of the view, I think people should take another look. It would be ironic to lose something that is a major draw to those we are trying to bring to the city.

We also need to talk about what will happen to the World Trade Centre. Will it remain or be declared surplus? If it is to be junked, couldn’t we use it for more hotel rooms (The Radisson was once an office building) or more office space? A tower in Scotia Square is about to come free with Nova Scotia Power’s move to the waterfront. And another developer is building a high rise in Historic Properties. Do we need more office space downtown?

In the 1960s and ’70s, conventional wisdom said we needed to be more like the rest of North America. The plan was to demolish derelict waterfront buildings, later to become Historic Properties, to build a four-lane highway along the waterfront to the container terminal, which is why we have the overpass to nowhere between the Delta Halifax and Trade Mart. The city would have been segregated from the water. What would Halifax look like had that happened? Would we have become a draw for cruise ships? Would we have the boardwalk or Maritime Museum? Could we have hosted the tall ships, this year’s naval review, or have space for the busker’s festival?

Convention centres in Quebec City, Montreal, Toronto, London, Paris and other cities operate successfully by feeding business to their neighbours. If public money is to go into a new convention centre, then the public interest has to be accommodated in the business plan.

We need to take a breath and learn how to marry modern with ancient so we can keep what is authentic, unique and instills an interest in both corporate and individual visitors.

‘I am one of those who worry about losing the view from the Citadel. I think most Nova Scotians assume they know what the view looks like these days, but how many Haligonians and city councillors have been to the Citadel in the last five years? Before we agree to lose what’s left of the view, I think people should take another look.’

Allan Lynch has spent 18 years writing about the meetings and incentive industry for magazines in Canada and the United States.

[fenwick16]

A story about Premier Dexter's opinions (source: http://thechronicleherald.ca/Editorial/1173820.html ). When I read it, I get the impression that Premier Dexter doesn't think that this is the "right project". The following lines near the end of the story:

Mr. Dexter said. "Convention centres, they don’t carry themselves in any jurisdiction, so far as I know. The question is one of economic benefit that comes from having them. So we want to have a pretty close look at that," he said.

"There is a lot of enthusiasm in Halifax for a new convention centre, and we feel it the same as everyone does. But … if you canvass the business community closely enough, they’ll say, ‘We just don’t want any project. We want a project that makes sense.’ "

"Mr. Dexter has hit the nail on the head."

New convention centre: Dexter takes right tack


Wed. Mar 24 - 4:53 AM

DEBATE over a new convention centre for Halifax is heating up, as if in a convection oven. But Darrell Dexter is playing it cool.

"I have said all along that whatever project comes forward has to be the right project," the premier told The Chronicle Herald in a recent interview. "The only thing people have seen so far is a kind of a visual representation of what a proposal might look like."

We agree. An artist’s conception does not a concrete proposal make. Apart from how the view from the Citadel might be affected, there are many other factors to consider, not the least of which is economic viability. "We want to see the right business case," Mr. Dexter said. "The decision needs to be on the basis of fact and on an actual proposal. I mean, the convention centre has become a symbol rather than a reality."

The province is waiting to examine the nuts and bolts of Rank Group’s proposal for the former Herald building site. Without provincial support, and an investment of tens of millions of dollars of taxpayers’ money, the project won’t get off the ground. On April 19, Infrastructure Renewal Minister Bill Estabrooks is expected to make a recommendation to cabinet on whether to back the development, which could cost at least $300 million, once you factor in private investment in an adjacent hotel, plus an office tower and retail space.

The three levels of government are being tapped to kick in about one-third of the cost. HRM Mayor Peter Kelly is firmly in the camp of the convention-centre boosters, calling it a no-brainer because of the economic spinoffs the city stands to realize from increased visits. So far, Ottawa remains on the sidelines.

In the public arena, a healthy debate has erupted between citizens who believe debt-ridden governments can ill afford to sink more money into a P3 project and those who believe such a project would be the perfect catalyst for Halifax’s renaissance after decades of construction stagnation downtown.

Some analysts say the convention boosters are betting on the wrong horse — the industry is in decline, they claim, and will be further undermined by technology and climbing oil prices. Others argue Halifax is well-positioned to tap into the mid-sized convention market. Furthermore, it has a ready-made clientele in the plethora of national associations that hold annual meetings which are rotated around the country on a regular basis.

The current World Trade and Convention Centre does not fit the bill because it is too small. On the other hand, one should not expect a new convention centre to completely defray its own bills, or operating costs, Mr. Dexter said. "Convention centres, they don’t carry themselves in any jurisdiction, so far as I know. The question is one of economic benefit that comes from having them. So we want to have a pretty close look at that," he said.

"There is a lot of enthusiasm in Halifax for a new convention centre, and we feel it the same as everyone does. But … if you canvass the business community closely enough, they’ll say, ‘We just don’t want any project. We want a project that makes sense.’ "

Mr. Dexter has hit the nail on the head.

[cormiermax]

Why the hell do they all love that view so much?? It's not even that nice anymore. Tourists do not come here just to stand on top of citadel hill and look at the oil refinery and cargo ships going by. If they want a nice view go to peggys cove!

[Kicker]

Hitler reacts to convention centre opposition: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybZJU94IVIA

[DigitalNinja]

It was already posted in the general thread :P

[halifaxboyns]

Has there been any update on the numbers for the various petitions? I posted them both on my facebook and got a very strong reaction in favour - so let's see what happens.

[halifaxboyns]

I just looked - For is closing in on 900; while against is around the 650.
I've heard through some friends (third hand) that apparently the HT is getting some nasty email's on their website and same with the save the view website.

[fenwick16]

I just looked - For is closing in on 900; while against is around the 650.
I've heard through some friends (third hand) that apparently the HT is getting some nasty email's on their website and same with the save the view website.

Great to hear that you are doing what you can to promote this halifaxboyns. Since you are in Calgary and I am in the Toronto area, we can both see the great potential for this convention centre. To me, it is obvious that people will want to go to Halifax and Nova Scotia for a convention.

The numbers that I have are 578 against (save the view) and 898 for the convention centre. :yes:

[halifaxboyns]

Great to hear that you are doing what you can to promote this halifaxboyns. Since you are in Calgary and I am in the Toronto area, we can both see the great potential for this convention centre. To me, it is obvious that people will want to go to Halifax and Nova Scotia for a convention.

The numbers that I have are 578 against (save the view) and 898 for the convention centre. :yes:

2 shy of 900 - nice. I think it's time we start signing the names of dead relatives roflol. I'm joking of course, but after seeing a repeat of the Simpsons when Sideshow Bob won because of dead anything voting - just a thought.

I've always believed that government should have role in making a city great; in this case - yes it's risky, but any big project like this would be. So would be building the fast ferry or regional rail - what if people don't use it? You can't have progress without some level of risk. As a planner by profession, I'd love to come back to Halifax for a planning conference - there would be so many things you could talk about and focus on (including heritage). I mean the walking tours alone would be wonderful!

[fenwick16]

How about this design for the hotel portion. It is about the same height (this one is 19 storeys) as the one proposed by Rank Corp. (source: http://www.jetsongreen.com/condominium/page/3/ ) . Hwoever, this is a condo instead of a hotel. It looks sharp to me and modern.

http://jetsongreen.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/05/04/luma.jpg

Description: The South Group recently announced that Luma, their newly completed residential project, received LEED Gold certification. The 19-story high-rise joins its sister building, Elleven, and becomes only the second condo in the state to receive the Gold level designation. Located in the South Park neighborhood of LA and with a total of 236 residences, LUMA saves 30% more energy over Title 24 2001 standards and consumes roughly 751,000 gallons less water annually than a comparable tower. The posh, green tower was built with low-VOC everything, and as you would expect, recycled and locally-sourced materials.

[halifaxboyns]

How about this design for the hotel portion. It is about the same height (this one is 19 storeys) as the one proposed by Rank Corp. (source: http://www.jetsongreen.com/condominium/page/3/ ) . Hwoever, this is a condo instead of a hotel. It looks sharp to me and modern.

http://jetsongreen.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/05/04/luma.jpg

Description: The South Group recently announced that Luma, their newly completed residential project, received LEED Gold certification. The 19-story high-rise joins its sister building, Elleven, and becomes only the second condo in the state to receive the Gold level designation. Located in the South Park neighborhood of LA and with a total of 236 residences, LUMA saves 30% more energy over Title 24 2001 standards and consumes roughly 751,000 gallons less water annually than a comparable tower. The posh, green tower was built with low-VOC everything, and as you would expect, recycled and locally-sourced materials.

Wasn't there some concern about the orientation of the tower? I think I mentioned it in an earlier post, that I would turn the tower portions slightly - if it would help retain some view from the road (gesture of good will if you will). But I do like the style - we have a lot of buildings like that out here in Calgary!

[halifaxboyns]

It occured to me while I was walking at lunch - there may be a real simple solution to all this; which may take the public input option out.

Back in the day - when the Saddledome was being proposed for Calgary - there was so much controversy about it (but the need was there); that it got so heated. Evenutally the minister for Municipal Affairs (who had the power under provincial legislation) gave the development an exemption - thus not requiring public input or consultation and away it went. There were court cases, which upheld the minister's decision - since he had the power to do it.

So - if the government really felt this was all important; couldn't they do the same thing under the MGA in Nova Scotia? I seem to recall reading something like that in the legislation. If not; then amend it and then do it.

Just a thought. :)

[fenwick16]

Since it has already been incorporated into the Downtown Halifax Land Use By-Law, can't they just go ahead with the heights as proposed? I have even seen a diagram somewhere in the HRMbyDesign document which became the Downtown Halifax Land Use By-Law, 2009.

There is less detail on the design aspect so it could be altered from the rendering.

[someone123]

The proposal isn't being held up by the regulatory process, it's being held up by a lack of funding coming from the province. This project was introduced by the last government and Dexter hasn't made any commitments. If he wanted it built he could circumvent anything done by the HRM.

[halifaxboyns]

The proposal isn't being held up by the regulatory process, it's being held up by a lack of funding coming from the province. This project was introduced by the last government and Dexter hasn't made any commitments. If he wanted it built he could circumvent anything done by the HRM.

That is what I thought regulatory wise. Money wise - that sucks.