[Halifax] Nova Centre | 65-58-58 m | 16-15-14 fl | Completed

[Haliguy]

Shall we officially term this debacle on Argyle St "Mason's Folly"?

I am thinking of starting a poll as to when it will again all be ripped up.

Mason's Folly (https://twitter.com/benwedge/status/943842658543460352)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DRkz4_8W4AEPpmO.jpg

Naw, HRM will just have to start inforcing the rules

[Keith P.]

Naw, HRM will just have to start inforcing the rules

And then contractors/general public will complain the design simply does not work, it will hit the local media, and soon enough Council will be forced to backtrack and fix it.

[Haliguy]

And then contractors/general public will complain the design simply does not work, it will hit the local media, and soon enough Council will be forced to backtrack and fix it.

hahahaha I'm sure. I know you don't like it keith P but just accept it and move on (:

[Keith P.]

hahahaha I'm sure. I know you don't like it keith P but just accept it and move on (:

Never! Victory shall be ours!! :notacrook:

[OldDartmouthMark]

And then contractors/general public will complain the design simply does not work, it will hit the local media, and soon enough Council will be forced to backtrack and fix it.

Perhaps you should suggest that contractors load their tools and equipment onto bicycle trailers and bike to their jobsites? :poke: http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/default/stirthepot.gif

:D

[OldDartmouthMark]

You can now walk all the way through the Grafton plaza, with access points to the BMO door. Unfortunately it looks like they rushed to get the pavers down... A lot of them are not installed well and are quite uneven.

Walked through there today. I didn't notice any of the pavers to be installed poorly or any that were uneven from block-to-block - not that there weren't any, just none where I was walking. I didn't find any 'ankle benders' there, anyhow, as there seemed to be a smooth transition between blocks.

However, the whole 'street' surface is very wavy and uneven, as though the base was not made level and straight. It is such that if you stand at one end and sight down it looks like sine wave in some spots and other areas look like there are 'pockets' sunk into the surface. My thoughts were that maybe it was done that way to encourage drainage, but it still seemed a little severe even with that mindset. A little perplexing, really, for an area that will be so prominent.

Regarding it being dark and uninviting, I'd say that it is as dark and uninviting as any other unfinished construction project. Still a lot of work to be done with many unfinished surfaces, and there is only one row of lights installed currently. If more lights are to be installed it will be much better IMHO.

Also, I didn't get any impression of it being a wind tunnel. It was much windier once I was outside of the 'square'.

I feel it has the potential to be a nice area, so I am content to wait until it is finished before I comment further.

[JHikka]

Naw, HRM will just have to start inforcing the rules

As was pointed out in the replies to the linked tweet, tickets are being handed out for parking on the street. It'll take time but eventually a pedestrian-oriented street will sink in mentally.

[eastcoastal]

... Regarding it being dark and uninviting, I'd say that it is as dark and uninviting as any other unfinished construction project. Still a lot of work to be done with many unfinished surfaces, and there is only one row of lights installed currently. If more lights are to be installed it will be much better IMHO.

Also, I didn't get any impression of it being a wind tunnel. It was much windier once I was outside of the 'square'.

I feel it has the potential to be a nice area, so I am content to wait until it is finished before I comment further.

Fair enough. Here's hoping we don't have to call it Rogers-Desolate-Hole

[OldDartmouthMark]

Fair enough. Here's hoping we don't have to call it Rogers-Desolate-Hole

You don't have to read too far back in this forum to know how I feel about selling off a city street to Rogers, or this being a block-buster project, but I truly am hoping it will turn out to be a nice, inviting place where people like to go.

So... I'm being optimistic! :)

[Jonovision]

Got some shots of the new lighting.
I'm not a fan of the uplighting on the sharp edge of the tower. It just looks odd when you uplight curtain wall.
I'm curious to see if this bright strip of colour will always be blue or can it change to reflect the day or current events?

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4592/39341898522_bbc227abc5_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/22WvvMd)20171228_180729 (https://flic.kr/p/22WvvMd) by Jonovision23 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/36229421@N02/), on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4736/39371534351_2832258de7_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/22Z8ptM)20171228_180716 (https://flic.kr/p/22Z8ptM) by Jonovision23 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/36229421@N02/), on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4732/24507179217_a3b300a015_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/DkBGyH)20171228_180740 (https://flic.kr/p/DkBGyH) by Jonovision23 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/36229421@N02/), on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4598/39371536251_332c9c7755_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/22Z8q3x)20171228_180638 (https://flic.kr/p/22Z8q3x) by Jonovision23 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/36229421@N02/), on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4730/27594708339_1897594f3a_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/J3s6pr)20171228_180735 (https://flic.kr/p/J3s6pr) by Jonovision23 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/36229421@N02/), on Flickr

And a bonus shot of the Stubborn Goat Mural

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4730/38663422574_d9bc7a7cfc_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/21Uy9w3)20171228_180526 (https://flic.kr/p/21Uy9w3) by Jonovision23 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/36229421@N02/), on Flickr

[q12]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DRvpXniXcAAj4H9.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DRvpXpBXcAIiPhh.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DRvpXn5XkAA1_hg.jpg

Source Twitter: https://twitter.com/rodneytown/status/944605151758823425

[ILoveHalifax]

WOW!!
Love the lighting - Great shots Juno!
I look forward to other colors if they happen

[Keith P.]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DRvpXniXcAAj4H9.jpg

Source Twitter: https://twitter.com/rodneytown/status/944605151758823425

What a ridiculous way to wreck a street.

[alps]

Beautiful!!!

I love the festive atmosphere created by the lights strung over the street.

Anyone know what's going in the Argyle shopfronts of the convention centre?

[MonctonRad]

Got some shots of the new lighting.
I'm not a fan of the uplighting on the sharp edge of the tower. It just looks odd when you uplight curtain wall.
I'm curious to see if this bright strip of colour will always be blue or can it change to reflect the day or current events?

There are lighting stanchions (in addition to regular streetlights) on Downing Street in Moncton (also a shared space roadway), which are LED and are programmable. They frequently leave them cycling between red, green and purple. They're actually very nice and really define the roadway.

The lights edging the corners of your convention centre are neat. The new Wingate Hotel in Dieppe also has lighting along the edges of the building like that. I wonder if the use of creative lighting on buildings will be a new trend in the region.........

The new events centre in Moncton will have the ability for multicolour displays along it's crown. I have a video here of what it looked like during a test the other month, but unfortunately it's of the back of the building and not the front.

qpRlXh3Ipl0

And here's a video of a drive by showing the lighting inside the entrance into the events centre.

zruzH8a6Dyg

If this focus on lighting is a new trend in urban design, I like it. It brings colour and vibe to the downtown of our cities.............

[Keith P.]

If this focus on lighting is a new trend in urban design, I like it. It brings colour and vibe to the downtown of our cities.............


I can pretty much guarantee that there will be some of the usual Halifax suspects appearing in the media complaining. Just remember the huge fuss when the MacDonald Bridge towers got illuminated? You would have thought it was the end of the world here.

[Haliguy]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/argyle-grafton-street-transformation-award-1.4468514

[Jonovision]

I'm curious though about the long term upkeep of these types of lighting features. Don't get me wrong, I think they are great. But given the maintenance track record of all things urban in Halifax I wonder if in 10 years half of the bulbs on that row of lights will be broken and not lit?

[lawsond]

I'm curious though about the long term upkeep of these types of lighting features. Don't get me wrong, I think they are great. But given the maintenance track record of all things urban in Halifax I wonder if in 10 years half of the bulbs on that row of lights will be broken and not lit?

How many Haligonians does it take to change a lightbulb? Not many really. Just replace them. Buildingsall over the world are illuminated. And have been for decades. The whole area looks stunning. The convention centre is turning out to be better than I ever would have expected. The new Argyle St looks straight out of some European city. At some point, people in Halifax are going to have to face the fact that you have an incredible city and the envy of any city it’s size or greater.

[Keith P.]

The new Argyle St looks straight out of some European city.

European design, all right. Looks great, but doesn't work at all for its intended purpose.

At some point, people in Halifax are going to have to face the fact that you have an incredible city and the envy of any city it’s size or greater.

Uhhh, no. It is in a strange kind of decline in some ways. With all of the money HRM is pouring into useless projects and spending, we have very little to actually show for it. No stadium, no effective transit system, poor street infrastructure.

[Drybrain]

European design, all right. Looks great, but doesn't work at all for its intended purpose.



Uhhh, no. It is in a strange kind of decline in some ways. With all of the money HRM is pouring into useless projects and spending, we have very little to actually show for it. No stadium, no effective transit system, poor street infrastructure.

Our transit system is mediocre but still vastly better than any comparably sized metro area in Canada (and ranks pretty high among sub-1 million metros in North America). Our public-realm infrastructure has lagged but is not in decline, and is definitely improving. As for a stadium, god, I can't even begin to care.

By an objective measure, Halifax is a good and clearly improving city, and for a city of this size, it's fantastic. (Some) Haligonians' weird insistence to the contrary is such a baffling local quirk.

[someone123]

By an objective measure, Halifax is a good and clearly improving city, and for a city of this size, it's fantastic. (Some) Haligonians' weird insistence to the contrary is such a baffling local quirk.

I only get back every year or two. I'd describe the changes 10 years ago as slow and steady. These days it seems like the downtown area at least improves by leaps and bounds with each visit, because there's something new like the library or Argyle Street plus some new development on practically every block it seems.

The other good thing in Halifax so far is that the growing pains are almost nonexistent compared to Vancouver or Toronto. Maybe this will change if Halifax keeps growing by 2% a year. But the cost to buy or rent in Halifax hasn't gone up much. There's also a lot more new broadly appealing middle class stuff opening up, whereas the bigger North American cities mostly seem to be overshooting that sweet spot now.

Unless something suddenly changes I think Halifax is going to be something like Austin TX in the long run, a smaller city that has a lot of appeal as a place where you can have a good standard of living even if you're not unusually wealthy. Standing in the way of this is perhaps high tax rates and a weirdly inaccurately modest or negative reputation, something that's probably not helped by the attitude of locals, although that seems to be changing in a positive way.

Another challenge is that the municipality and provinces will need to get into more of a growth mindset if the 2% a year increases continue. They will need to build more ambitious infrastructure projects. Another 5 years of indecisiveness will mean 40,000 more people on the roads, which will have a real impact.

[OldDartmouthMark]

I have to admit that I'm liking the Nova Centre project more now that the finishing touches are starting to be applied. The lighting is a nice touch, and will definitely improve the vibe of the pedestrian-oriented streets. Hopefully more and more surrounding buildings will join in and brighten up the area with similar lighting.

I'm really looking forward to the summer when we will see how it will all work out with new businesses (hopefully with one or two restaurants/bars) in the Nova Centre, the Argyle Street project completely finished and all the patios, which will now be permanent, in full swing. I think it will be a really happening and vibrant area, especially with the limitation on vehicle traffic.

I honestly don't see any real loss on those streets anyhow. I would always try to avoid driving on them if possible as they were always crowded and busy with parked cars and pedestrians (often under the influence in the evenings) making it difficult to get through with a car. For parking spots, on the evenings and weekends people would just park their cars and leave them there, so it's not like one would even hope to have a parking spot available, plus with all the drunk kids and other activities going on, you are likely to sustain some sort of damage to your vehicle if you do find a spot. I only recall parking there once, on Blowers Street, and when I returned to my car later on I found that somebody had run into it and left the scene... that was enough for me, now I seek out parkades as they seem to be a little easier on the vehicle...

I still haven't changed on my nit-picky complaints about the Nova Centre and Rogers Square, but if the net positives outweigh the net negatives (which I believe they do), then I'm all for it. Overall a huge improvement to the downtown, IMHO.

[teddifax]

Two things, the hotel operator - is it still to be announced this month and as for bars - Bier Markt was originally mentioned opening in the centre, but now isn't, any rumours as to what is going in there?

[q12]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DTQkobFWAAAQojh.jpg:large
Source Twitter:https://twitter.com/EHS_NS/status/951425719019679744

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DTB96t_U8AAqAoE.jpg:large
Source Twitter:https://twitter.com/haligoniaphotos/status/950397972235264002

[Keith P.]

Looks like the street becomes inaccessible if an emergency response vehicle has to stop on it. Ridiculously bad design.

[Haliguy]

Looks like the street becomes inaccessible if an emergency response vehicle has to stop on it. Ridiculously bad design.

How so?

[IanWatson]

Looks like the street becomes inaccessible if an emergency response vehicle has to stop on it. Ridiculously bad design.

Ignoring the fact that there's a clear car width to the side of that ambulance, do we really want to encourage people driving down the road during an emergency situation? There are tons of alternate routes around that street.

[ns_kid]

Two things, the hotel operator - is it still to be announced this month and as for bars - Bier Markt was originally mentioned opening in the centre, but now isn't, any rumours as to what is going in there?

Ramia has promised an imminent announcement by a hotel operator for at least two years. I have no confidence one will announce anytime soon. An official at the convention centre open house on the weekend said he expects a hotel opening is almost a year away. This makes sense since all interior work awaits an operator.

I was also bemused to learn there is no indoor access from the hotel building to the convention centre. Guests, I was told, will have to cross the semi-covered Grafton Street.

[teddifax]

I find it amazing for such a huge development, all the planning that DIDN"T go into this ... no connection to the existing tunnel system, and as mentioned above, no direct connection from the proposed hotel to the convention centre... did the design team break off into teams and not get back together?

[IanWatson]

I find it amazing for such a huge development, all the planning that DIDN"T go into this ... no connection to the existing tunnel system, and as mentioned above, no direct connection from the proposed hotel to the convention centre... did the design team break off into teams and not get back together?

My memory is foggy on this one, so perhaps someone can correct the details, but I seem to recall the connection to the tunnel system was something that was discussed. The cost was going to be something astronomical ($20 million comes to mind) and the developer wanted the city pay. City basically said, "lol no."

[miesh111]

My memory is foggy on this one, so perhaps someone can correct the details, but I seem to recall the connection to the tunnel system was something that was discussed. The cost was going to be something astronomical ($20 million comes to mind) and the developer wanted the city pay. City basically said, "lol no."

I believe the municipal planners actually would not let the developer connect to the tunnel system, and the Grafton Streetscape upgrade was the compromise. The current planners hate the pedway system, and would rather we all put on our coats and walk on the surface streets.

[Keith P.]

I believe the municipal planners actually would not let the developer connect to the tunnel system, and the Grafton Streetscape upgrade was the compromise. The current planners hate the pedway system, and would rather we all put on our coats and walk on the surface streets.

Yes, that makes perfect sense. :koko:

First thing we do, let's fire all the planners.

[Keith P.]

I was also bemused to learn there is no indoor access from the hotel building to the convention centre. Guests, I was told, will have to cross the semi-covered Grafton Street.

I find this difficult to believe. The buildings are physically connected, so how hard can this be to implement?

[IanWatson]

Here's an article for the tunnel from 2015. (http://www.thechronicleherald.ca/metro/1295472-proposed-tunnel-between-halifax-convention-centre-hotels-could-cost-taxpayers)

Looks like the cost was more like $7-$10 million. The city was wary of the cost, plus the disruption that would come from its installation.

I do find the lack of connection between the hotel and convention centre to pretty pretty baffling, if that is indeed true.

[JET]

Yes, that makes perfect sense. :koko:

First thing we do, let's fire all the planners.

After we kill all the lawyers.

[ns_kid]

I do find the lack of connection between the hotel and convention centre to pretty pretty baffling, if that is indeed true.

I find it equally confounding but repeat only what I was told; however, if you check out the convention centre floor plans, available on their website, there is no hotel access visible there.:???:

[OldDartmouthMark]

I find it equally confounding but repeat only what I was told; however, if you check out the convention centre floor plans, available on their website, there is no hotel access visible there.:???:

Must not have had their best architects on that one...

[q12]

Has the Nova Centre underground public parking garage opened yet? And does anyone know where the entrance is located.

I thought it's suppose to have close to 500 parking spaces with multiple levels underneath.

It seems ideal for Mooseheads games and other events at the Scotiabank Centre.

https://novacentre.ca/sites/default/files/market-after.jpg

:previous:
Is this the entrance/exit for parking?

[musicman]

Has the Nova Centre underground public parking garage opened yet? And does anyone know where the entrance is located.

I thought it's suppose to have close to 500 parking spaces with multiple levels underneath.

It seems ideal for Mooseheads games and other events at the Scotiabank Centre.

https://novacentre.ca/sites/default/files/market-after.jpg

:previous:
Is this the entrance/exit for parking?

No these are the loading bays for the convention center... There are ways to get from the hotel to the convention center just not "public" ones.

[Keith P.]

I drove around the site just before Christmas and did not spot the parking entrance. I was told it was supposed to open mid-December.

[Phalanx]

:previous:
Is this the entrance/exit for parking?

I believe the underground parking entrance is actually on Grafton. Which seems like a real drawback to the supposed pedestrian oriented design, but... it had to go somewhere.

[terrynorthend]

I find it equally confounding but repeat only what I was told; however, if you check out the convention centre floor plans, available on their website, there is no hotel access visible there.:???:

Presumably (although admittedly not much better than crossing an exterior plaza) people could access both the hotel and convention centre through the shared parking garage?

[ILoveHalifax]

Presumably (although admittedly not much better than crossing an exterior plaza) people could access both the hotel and convention centre through the shared parking garage?

Well a conventioneer is not gong to get wet or stuck in a snowbank or even freeze to death ,walking/running across a courtyard from hotel to convention center. Maybe they will be surprised to know that Halifax is generally better weather wise than much of Canada. They might actually cross Argyle St to a LOCAL restaurant to enjoy some Halifax flavor.Might be the first step to them venturing for a short walk in the downtown and encourage them to explore more so than being stuck inside while in town

[mleblanc]

According to Halifax Retales (http://halifax.retales.ca/2018/01/clayton-pak-burgers-the-end-of-plovers-and-6-years-of-retales/) the NSLC is opening a 4000 sq foot store in the Nova Centre

[someone123]

According to Halifax Retales (http://halifax.retales.ca/2018/01/clayton-pak-burgers-the-end-of-plovers-and-6-years-of-retales/) the NSLC is opening a 4000 sq foot store in the Nova Centre

I wonder if an urban format grocery store will ever open up again around the Scotia Square area. It will only get more and more viable in the future as new residential highrises go up (e.g. Westhill on Duke plus tons of sites around Cogswell).

[kyranmcgowan]

Regarding the parking garage, you do have to enter and exit through "roger's square". Sadly, it hasn't opened yet, but looks pretty much finished. My buddy and I snuck down there a few nights ago to check it out. Seems like the only thing that wasn't finished yet is the gate at the entry and exit.

Also, I was talking to a guy that I worked with who is good buddies with Joe Ramia. According to him, both the Nova Center and Prince George were all for covering the costs for building the pedway between the two complexes, but the city planners wouldn't play ball.

[terrynorthend]

I wonder if an urban format grocery store will ever open up again around the Scotia Square area. It will only get more and more viable in the future as new residential highrises go up (e.g. Westhill on Duke plus tons of sites around Cogswell).

I certainly wouldn't be surprised. Pete's always does a brisk business at City Centre Atlantic.

[mleblanc]

I certainly wouldn't be surprised. Pete's always does a brisk business at City Centre Atlantic.

One can dream. Living and working downtown, the only time I ever use my car is for groceries. Even then - Petes on Dresden is only a 10-15 minute walk.

[RoshanMcG]

http://i.imgur.com/SuBofeY.jpg?1 (https://imgur.com/SuBofeY)

[q12]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DUeFehGVQAYyZ-C.jpg:large

Source Twitter:
https://twitter.com/seandmcmullen/status/956880208933675008

[Jonovision]

What I thought was going to be the usual over abundance of railings on the steps has turned out to be even more lighting.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4621/40072339122_89b1f2d185_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2444djE)20180202_165548 (https://flic.kr/p/2444djE) by Jonovision23 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/36229421@N02/), on Flickr

[OldDartmouthMark]

Thanks for all your updates, Jonno.

I'm liking each time they add lighting to the NC. It should be pretty inviting and colourful if they keep it up.

[teddifax]

With LED lighting, the sky is the limit.... I hope the building is really wired. So many major buildings in major cities can change their look with LED lighting....

[IanWatson]

Thanks for all your updates, Jonno.

I'm liking each time they add lighting to the NC. It should be pretty inviting and colourful if they keep it up.

I'm really liking most of the lighting. The big exception is the blue downlighting on the sidewalks. It feels like you're walking through a nightclub, and it makes it really hard to see the topography of the surface (gawd, I'm becoming a cranky old man...).

[mleblanc]

I'm really liking most of the lighting. The big exception is the blue downlighting on the sidewalks. It feels like you're walking through a nightclub, and it makes it really hard to see the topography of the surface (gawd, I'm becoming a cranky old man...).

The UV lighting does seem harsh at street level. Would also love to see the southern point of the tower light up a bit more, looks great so far but fairly dim at street level in contrash to the UV

[q12]

There is a story in ANS today about the Nova Centre Hotel. Anyone know the gist?

[IanWatson]

There is a story in ANS today about the Nova Centre Hotel. Anyone know the gist?

No hotel announced yet. A list of hotel operators and money managers who made offers on the hotel in the past. In the meantime, the Prince George is capitalizing on the void and advertising themselves as a convenient accommodation choice for convention-goers.

[Keith P.]

I was speaking to one of the poor souls whose office moved to the tower - prematurely as it turned out. Apparently it is still very much a construction site and will remain so for a long time. Aside from the hotel side being a totally unfinished shell, most of the office tower is as well. The parking garage is not open because it is used to store materials and equipment. There is also no access control/pay equipment installed either so most people can't use it (though apparently there is an informal way to get in if you use the right code words). Public amenities like washrooms, etc also are not working reliably or finished properly. It is still very much a construction site according to this person and will be for many months/years to come.

[Keith P.]

I'm really liking most of the lighting. The big exception is the blue downlighting on the sidewalks. It feels like you're walking through a nightclub, and it makes it really hard to see the topography of the surface (gawd, I'm becoming a cranky old man...).

I find the short section of what looks like lightbulbs strung over the end of Argyle St looks really tacky, like what someone might rig up for their deck in the summer. It sure as heck isn't the kind of plaza lighting you see in other cities.

[RangerNS]

I find the short section of what looks like lightbulbs strung over the end of Argyle St looks really tacky, like what someone might rig up for their deck in the summer. It sure as heck isn't the kind of plaza lighting you see in other cities.

It makes no sense that it is only 1/3 of the street.

[Phalanx]

I believe someone mentioned earlier in the thread that this was just a proof of concept and that it would be expanded to the full street if everything worked out okay.

[ScovaNotian]

I find the poles to be the most disappointing thing about the lights. It'd be much nicer if they could be strung to the buildings on both sides.

[Jonovision]

I couldn't manage a good picture of it last night but some more lighting has been added. The circular roofline on the Norther portion of the office tower now has a white LED strip around it.

[Jonovision]

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4656/39387208115_d3dac9cd16_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/231vJK6)20180214_163220 (https://flic.kr/p/231vJK6) by Jonovision23 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/36229421@N02/), on Flickr

[mleblanc]

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4656/39387208115_d3dac9cd16_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/231vJK6)20180214_163220 (https://flic.kr/p/231vJK6) by Jonovision23 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/36229421@N02/), on Flickr

Saw that last night. Looks great, really breaks up the huge mass that is that main office building.

[Jonovision]

And last night they were testing the strip on the other half of the office building.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4672/26425808868_443311f236_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/Ggabjh)20180216_070903 (https://flic.kr/p/Ggabjh) by Jonovision23 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/36229421@N02/), on Flickr

[Jonovision]

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4656/40421576061_3bab2b1774_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/24zV9ic)20180221_122943 (https://flic.kr/p/24zV9ic) by Jonovision23 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/36229421@N02/), on Flickr

[OldDartmouthMark]

I was downtown Saturday evening and made two observations while strolling along Argyle:

(1) The new layout seems to be working very well - there were a lot of people out and it just seemed like such a vibrant area - moreso than before the changes IMHO. It felt so much less cluttered without lines of cars parked on either side. There was a steady stream of traffic flowing along the street but no traffic jams, and actually seemed less congested than previously observed, before the changes. The wider sidewalks lend themselves well to the number of people out and about, and IMHO this will really shine through as businesses get their patios set up in the spring, making the area that much more lively.

(2) It was a windy. blustery day Saturday, but I noticed a huge increase in the wind when walking by the Nova Centre. I've observed this other times this winter as well, but thought it may have been a result of the specific weather at the time. The wind went from jostling the hair around in other locations to wanting to peel the skin off my face and flash freeze it at the same time when next to NC. I don't want to use the words "wind tunnel", but...

[Keith P.]

Back in the '90s I used to walk to work along Grafton and the wind, which in the winter was invariably out of the north, was directly into you as you headed towards the Metro Centre and SS. That was with zero buildings of any height. At other times of the year it was far less bothersome. I suspect you experienced the same effect.

I find your observations about Argyle's reconfiguration interesting as the urbanist net-cops were complaining on Twitter on Saturday about cars parked on both sides of Argyle, in what they claimed were "sidewalks" - which, without anything to indicate as such, strike me as foolish as the "unmarked crosswalks" people complain drivers also do not respect.

[OldDartmouthMark]

I would be inclined to agree with you except, walking from Blowers along Argyle (and back later on), the winds picked up as I crossed Sackville St. and calmed down around Lot Six at the Carleton. Nowhere else (including Barrington) were they as bad. Not drawing any conclusions, as there was nothing scientific about my observations, just putting it out there.

Was there about 6pm and again about 10pm, definitely no cars at the earlier time, didn't notice any on the return trip, but wasn't specifically counting cars either, as the main purpose was a night of entertainment, not reporting to SS forum, and as I said, the feel there was very good - active and vibrant - especially in light of it being a cool, windy evening.

[JET]

Back in the '90s I used to walk to work along Grafton and the wind, which in the winter was invariably out of the north, was directly into you as you headed towards the Metro Centre and SS. That was with zero buildings of any height. At other times of the year it was far less bothersome. I suspect you experienced the same effect.

I find your observations about Argyle's reconfiguration interesting as the urbanist net-cops were complaining on Twitter on Saturday about cars parked on both sides of Argyle, in what they claimed were "sidewalks" - which, without anything to indicate as such, strike me as foolish as the "unmarked crosswalks" people complain drivers also do not respect.

Keith, what is your point about 'unmarked crosswalks'? The motor vehicle act is quite clear about unmarked crosswalks and the requirement to yield to pedestrians.

[Keith P.]

Keith, what is your point about 'unmarked crosswalks'? The motor vehicle act is quite clear about unmarked crosswalks and the requirement to yield to pedestrians.

Yes, and that is a foolish and dangerous clause in the MVA. All crosswalks should be marked. Otherwise the pedestrian better hope that they and the oncoming driver have the same perception.

[JET]

Yes, and that is a foolish and dangerous clause in the MVA. All crosswalks should be marked. Otherwise the pedestrian better hope that they and the oncoming driver have the same perception.

I would be fine with a marked crosswalk at every corner, and have the lime green signs rather than the black/white ones that don't stand out.

[IanWatson]

I'll add to Mark's comments and say that I walked Argyle this weekend, and noticed that--despite Keith's apocalyptic prophesies--the new road surface held up remarkably well to the wear and tear of winter. No dings from snow plows, no heave, everything is in great shape. To be fair, it wasn't the harshest winter, but it at least bodes well for the future.

[Keith P.]

Don't go popping those champagne corks just yet.

Material choices aside, I am seeing complaints on a regular basis from urbanists on social media about the vague design of Argyle resulting in cars parking to patronize businesses and trucks making deliveries to businesses, both of which they think are in violation of various aspects of the design. It seems clear that HRM Council cares not one whit for the needs of businesses as evidenced both by this and the recent decision to eliminate much parking on South Park St. An urban core whose city does things to discourage them from doing business succesfully will soon be a wasteland.

[OldDartmouthMark]

I don't think you should put so much weight on people's comments on social media. IIRC, there was never a plan to prevent delivery vehicles from doing their job as it's a necessity for business to be able to operate.

Additionally, from what I've observed, this area is quickly becoming the opposite of a wasteland, so clearly the real answer is somewhere in the middle of the extremes (as usual).

[q12]

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4759/39931257924_b096a2c021_h.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/23QA8Nd)Halifax Nova Center (https://flic.kr/p/23QA8Nd) by Rodney Hickey (https://www.flickr.com/photos/sizzler68/), on Flickr

[Jstaleness]

^^^ Nice angle and very nice shot.

[eastcoastal]

The glowing sidewalks are weird. In person, I feel the building lighting at night is very strange and feels incongruous.

[Haliguy]

Don't go popping those champagne corks just yet.

Material choices aside, I am seeing complaints on a regular basis from urbanists on social media about the vague design of Argyle resulting in cars parking to patronize businesses and trucks making deliveries to businesses, both of which they think are in violation of various aspects of the design. It seems clear that HRM Council cares not one whit for the needs of businesses as evidenced both by this and the recent decision to eliminate much parking on South Park St. An urban core whose city does things to discourage them from doing business succesfully will soon be a wasteland.

I'm actually with you on the South Park St decision. I'm all for Aryle st and Grafton St shared street concept and I bike and am for bike lanes but getting rid of more parking spcaces to me is a mistake. Between bike lanes, permit parking and construction it is getting very hard to find parking. It's just too much all at once.

[Keith P.]

http://thechronicleherald.ca/business/1553064-exclusive-260-room-sutton-place-luxury-hotel-to-open-in-nova-centre?utm_source=email&utm_medium=breaking-news&utm_campaign=breaking-news

I confess I was unaware of Sutton Place hotels aside from the one in Toronto which has always been very good. But this is a top-end operator so it probably matches the image the developer wanted.

[MonctonRad]

Sutton Place Hotels is a good catch. :tup:

In Toronto (at least) it (and the Four Seasons) are the places to be seen during TIFF

[someone123]

http://thechronicleherald.ca/business/1553064-exclusive-260-room-sutton-place-luxury-hotel-to-open-in-nova-centre?utm_source=email&utm_medium=breaking-news&utm_campaign=breaking-news

I confess I was unaware of Sutton Place hotels aside from the one in Toronto which has always been very good. But this is a top-end operator so it probably matches the image the developer wanted.

The Toronto Sutton Place is gone. It was converted to condos. There is still one in Vancouver.

Hopefully this will be upscale. The other newer hotels downtown are all mid-range or lower. As far as I'm aware, there's no Four Seasons equivalent in Halifax.

[MonctonRad]

The Toronto Sutton Place is gone. It was converted to condos. There is still one in Vancouver.

When did this happen??

[Keith P.]

The Toronto Sutton Place is gone. It was converted to condos. There is still one in Vancouver.

Hopefully this will be upscale. The other newer hotels downtown are all mid-range or lower. As far as I'm aware, there's no Four Seasons equivalent in Halifax.

Oh, that's right about Toronto, I had forgotten. Closed about 5 years ago. Apparently it had been sold and was allowed to run down. I know when I used to travel frequently to Toronto on business in the '90s it was the place to stay.

The Sutton Place group has properties in Vancouver, Revelstoke and Edmonton, with one under construction in Winnipeg. The one in Edmonton is the old Sheraton which they renovated but which does not get good reviews, so perhaps my initial assessment was a bit premature.

[RangerNS]

Who stays at hotels where you don't get points and you don't have status? (obviously, someone)

I was at 4 nights in the Mexico City Four Seasons 3 weeks ago. Noped right out of that to move to the Sheraton up the road for the next couple of months, even as the company was willing to pay for the allegedly fancier place.

[connect2source]

Disappointing, was gunning for premium Marriott or Hilton banners, Fairmont would have been great too! Our Sutton Place property in Vancouver is certainly past it's prime and has been outgunned by all the recent 5 start additions like Shangri-La, Trump and most recently The Douglas and JW Marriott.

[ns_kid]

At today's official announcement of the new Sutton Place Hotel for the Nova Centre, CEO Tom Gaglardi had praise for the developer of the property saying, according to Global, "It makes perfect sense to partner with another well-established family like the Ramias." He continued with his praise of the building: "It took incredible foresight and courage to accomplish this magnificent structure."

According to CBC, Gaglardi said he's been looking to make the chain coast-to-coast for last six or seven years, but had a tough time finding the right land or existing hotel to rebrand. It's still not clear why it's taken this long to close the deal with Ramia, who has been hinting for a couple of years that an announcement was imminent. Previous reports had Ramia in conversation with Marriott and Hyatt. Gaglari said it's a very desirable market adding, "I think it certainly leaves you punching way above your weight class, given you're only a city of 400,000 people."

The hotel is slated to open following interior construction one year from now, with 262 "luxury" rooms, a restaurant, and underground parking. Current Sutton rack rates for a king room range from $158 in Edmonton to $245 in Vancouver which don't really seem to be luxury prices. But, as partial as I have been to Marriott in recent years, I am glad to see a new brand in the Halifax market.

Ramia, by the way, says commercial space at Nova Centre is now 70% rented. More tenant announcements are - you guessed it - imminent.

[someone123]

Gaglari said it's a very desirable market adding, "I think it certainly leaves you punching way above your weight class, given you're only a city of 400,000 people."

This is just a tangent but I used to think this notion of populations and "weight classes" was confined mostly to SSP and similar enthusiasts. Here in Western Canada however it comes up fairly often. There is a strong growth mentality and population is treated like the single number that captures how important a city is.

Around the world this relationship doesn't hold much at all. Monaco has 38,000 people and I bet it has some fancy hotels that put those of much more populous cities to shame. Halifax is obviously not like Monaco but it is a regional centre that gets more tourism than it otherwise would. To me it's unsurprising that it has nicer hotels, a busier airport, etc. than cities with a similar population elsewhere in North America that are just branch plant towns or bedroom communities.

Somehow Park City, Utah ended up with a Waldorf Astoria hotel and it has under 8,000 people. The developers must have gotten mixed up on their way to downtown Salt Lake City! :)

[Keith P.]

I hope this works out. I often wonder about the Prince George, which has always been a well-appointed and well-run hotel in a good location that is far too small. I am unsure if they are constrained by a view plane from building any taller or if that size was by choice. I find it interesting that the relatively compact Prince George has 203 rooms while the much larger new hotel structure in Nova Centre claims just 260. They must be quite large!

[IanWatson]

I hope this works out. I often wonder about the Prince George, which has always been a well-appointed and well-run hotel in a good location that is far too small. I am unsure if they are constrained by a view plane from building any taller or if that size was by choice. I find it interesting that the relatively compact Prince George has 203 rooms while the much larger new hotel structure in Nova Centre claims just 260. They must be quite large!

Numbers appear to add up. I count 12 floors on the NC hotel, and 5 full floors one the PG (plus maybe some ground floor units?). However, the PG is a full block wide, while NC is only half.

I do wonder why the PG was built so short. Maybe it was just a product of a time when downtown land wasn't highly valued? Actually... I just looked and the site is under both VP 4 and 5. Looking at the Homburg building though, I think the PG could have been taller in parts. I guess they just decided it wasn't worth it?

[q12]

Here is a view of the Prince George Hotel taken from the 19th floor of the Sutton Place Hotel yesterday:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DYWf-a4VwAAzSPg.jpg:large
Source:https://twitter.com/shainaluck/status/974360799094468609

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DYWf6rdVQAALCKY.jpg:large
Source:https://twitter.com/duckiedigit/status/974360727510290432

[someone123]

I hope this works out. I often wonder about the Prince George, which has always been a well-appointed and well-run hotel in a good location that is far too small. I am unsure if they are constrained by a view plane from building any taller or if that size was by choice. I find it interesting that the relatively compact Prince George has 203 rooms while the much larger new hotel structure in Nova Centre claims just 260. They must be quite large!

I remember reading a comment from a developer years ago who said he thought Halifax had too many small hotels without many amenities. The city could have a nicer 500 room hotel but that might not happen as long as a new 200 room hotel is built every few years.

[Keith P.]

I remember reading a comment from a developer years ago who said he thought Halifax had too many small hotels without many amenities. The city could have a nicer 500 room hotel but that might not happen as long as a new 200 room hotel is built every few years.

I remember Bernie Smith used to say that as well, when he was running one of the business commissions. I suppose the Westin comes closest to that here, but even it only has 310 rooms. Given its age it is a constant struggle to keep it updated and it is not in the most convenient location. The NC hotel just looks from the outside like it ought to have more rooms than it does, but I guess that can be deceptive.

[Jonovision]

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/815/40012934075_c1c2dfb330_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/23XNKgH)20180316_181648 (https://flic.kr/p/23XNKgH) by Jonovision23 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/36229421@N02/), on Flickr

[OldDartmouthMark]

https://www.thestar.com/halifax/2018/04/10/halifax-mayor-says-convention-centre-a-good-news-story-despite-growing-deficit.html

Regional council voted on Tuesday to pay back the province about $300,000 spent by Events East, the Crown corporation set up to run the convention centre, on sales and marketing back in 2016.

Council also voted to pay the municipality’s half of whatever Events East spent this past year – likely about $2 million.

What that means for the special convention centre account is that a balance projected to be almost $6 million for the first year the convention centre was complete is actually about $2 million, says a staff report before council on Tuesday. The projected balance for the second year was $4.8 million; now it’s negative, and projected to stay that way.

In Year 10, the balance is projected to be a $17-million deficit.

Money that could have been put towards a stadium? :shrug:

That said, I'm sure office vacancy rates won't be bad forever, so one would think this should turn around eventually.

[someone123]

Is the office vacancy rate (which has gone up due to construction, not negative absorption) even relevant to this at all? I thought that part of the project was private. Assessments aren't tied to vacancy rates.

But in general the idea of setting aside property taxes from specific projects to pay for other specific things does seem silly. You don't need to do that for a project to be revenue-neutral. I'm not sure how it changes the overall finances though. HRM collects the revenue it collects.

What is with this trend in Halifax reporting to write articles full of confusing vaguely negative factoids that don't connect together in coherent way and don't provide the full context?

[OldDartmouthMark]

Is the office vacancy rate (which has gone up due to construction, not negative absorption) even relevant to this at all? I thought that part of the project was private. Assessments aren't tied to vacancy rates.

The city administrators seem to think that it's relevant:
https://i.imgur.com/cUkW9Yx.jpg

But in general the idea of setting aside property taxes from specific projects to pay for other specific things does seem silly. You don't need to do that for a project to be revenue-neutral. I'm not sure how it changes the overall finances though. HRM collects the revenue it collects.


All well and good, but isn't the salient point that for this particular project, Halifax's taxpayers will be paying more than originally anticipated, or at least have less funding available for other projects?

https://i.imgur.com/4UGUlYl.jpg

https://www.halifax.ca/sites/default/files/documents/city-hall/regional-council/180410rc1423.pdf

Maybe it's not an issue - as the booked conventions will probably provide spinoff benefits that are not easy to quantify, but surely will be positive.

However, it doesn't seem unreasonable for there to be some media attention when tax money is spent on a project like this - you may perceive it as unnecessary negativity, but the public should still be made aware of the circumstances. They can think for themselves and decide whether it's reasonable or not.

What is with this trend in Halifax reporting to write articles full of confusing vaguely negative factoids that don't connect together in coherent way and don't provide the full context?

Is that a Halifax-only thing? Seems to me that the level of media reporting has declined everywhere. :shrug:

[OldDartmouthMark]

And, FWIW, here's CBC's take on it.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/halifax-convention-centre-costs-council-1.4613238