[Halifax] Nova Centre | 65-58-58 m | 16-15-14 fl | Completed

[worldlyhaligonian]

I agree. The hole isn't great (it's not that bad though...) but the sun on Argyle is glorious.

True, but they do more business at night than during the day anyway.

[terrynorthend]

Just saw this on cbc!

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/story/2012/07/06/ns-convention-centre-announcement.html

[cormiermax]

YES!!!! :banana::banana::banana::banana:

[someone123]

And finally the CBC is using one of the newer renderings.

Hopefully there will be no council hijinks. It would be nice if they put up some renderings of the project on the site and began excavation soon. The bombed-out empty blocks are very unattractive.

[someone123]

Here's a nice aerial shot of the site from flickr:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8023/7500602672_41566b0cc3_b.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/conrodphotography/7500602672/sizes/l/in/photostream/

[Keith P.]

I hope someone puts Tim Bousquet on suicide watch. Maybe he will chain himself to one of the old Herald foundation pilings... :koko:

[Haliguy]

Great news!! :cheers:

[sdm]

And finally the CBC is using one of the newer renderings.

Hopefully there will be no council hijinks. It would be nice if they put up some renderings of the project on the site and began excavation soon. The bombed-out empty blocks are very unattractive.

Its an election year, i suspect lots of positioning on this.
That said, when does the project go through the HRM by Design process?

[MonctonRad]

I can't think of a single more important and more vital project for the downtown of Halifax. This will be a catalyst for even more development in the core.... :tup:

[Northend Nerd]

I am so happy to finally see this! I can't wait to see construction begin!

[Jstaleness]

I am so happy to finally see this! I can't wait to see construction begin!

Hopefully the site will look like your avatar by the fall.

[resetcbu1]

I wonder what type of tenants are lined up or who?

[fenwick16]

There is a story in the Chronicle Herald that gives additional details - http://thechronicleherald.ca/business/114466-taylor-convention-centre-ground-will-break-soon


TAYLOR: Convention centre ground will break soon
July 6, 2012 - 9:08pm By ROGER TAYLOR Business Columnist

Construction of the new World Trade and Convention Centre in downtown Halifax is set to begin within weeks, once all the documents are signed.

Contract negotiations on the convention centre lease between the provincial government and the developer, Rank Inc., were finalized recently and received cabinet approval Thursday, a government source said.

Halifax regional council is slated to deal Tuesday with a “memorandum of agreement” spelling out operational funding and how the new World Trade and Convention Centre will be managed.

Mayor Peter Kelly said Friday the memorandum of agreement between the municipality and province is crucial in terms of the project moving ahead.

Sources say the complex negotiations related to the lease caused much of the delay. Construction was supposed to have started in 2010.

The 25-year lease will be for a turn-key package. It will include all furnishings and equipment, which will be handed over to the provincial government’s Trade Centre Ltd. once construction is complete.
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It had been reported that Rank was holding back on construction due to some tenants’ reluctance to sign a lease during adverse global economic conditions and because of uncertainty that the larger development would ever be built.

I’m told, however, that those concerns have been overstated and there have not been problems signing up tenants, especially now that construction is more of a certainty.
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The cost of the convention centre has not changed despite the delays, Smith said. It is still $159 million, to be funded by all three levels of government. The province and city are contributing $56 million each, to be paid in the form of a capital lease over 25 years, and the federal government is committed to providing $51.4 million in a lump-sum payment once construction is substantially completed.

Rank has committed to covering cost overruns during construction.

Once the 25-year lease term is up, the province and city will have the option of buying the convention centre.

[worldlyhaligonian]

I hope someone puts Tim Bousquet on suicide watch. Maybe he will chain himself to one of the old Herald foundation pilings... :koko:

Laughed my ass off!

Seriously though, this is a great day for Halifax, NS, and progress in general!!!

[q12]

This is awesome news!!!

STV... all those lies for nothing... :lmao:

[worldlyhaligonian]

The CBC comments section is priceless.

Those against this project are the very reason for our economic problems.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Also... did you guys hear that those "art" installations (protests) used taxpayer money? If the opponents want to talk about wasted money they need to look in the mirror.

Some "artist" got paid to do that? I'll do some public art for them.

[fenwick16]

I hope someone puts Tim Bousquet on suicide watch. Maybe he will chain himself to one of the old Herald foundation pilings... :koko:

No one bothers to post his anti-convention centre columns any more. But just for old time sake, here is another one - http://www.thecoast.ca/halifax/white-elephant/Content?oid=3211034

[DigitalNinja]

I have the up most respect for the majority of people on this planet, no matter how silly they may seem sometimes. But Tim Bousquet seems like a person that the moment he opens his mouth (Or types in most cases). I just would like to punch him for being so stupid...

[q12]

I have the up most respect for the majority of people on this planet, no matter how silly they may seem sometimes. But Tim Bousquet seems like a person that the moment he opens his mouth (Or types in most cases). I just would like to punch him for being so stupid...

Listen to the baby ranting (crying) on twitter this morning.:tantrum::baby:

http://twitter.com/Tim_Bousquet

[fenwick16]

Listen to the baby ranting (crying) on twitter this morning.:tantrum::baby:

http://twitter.com/Tim_Bousquet

I think Tim Bousquet has finally lost all of his marbles - he is making one anti-convention centre tweet every few minutes :D

[q12]

I think Tim Bousquet has finally lost all of his marbles - he is making one anti-convention centre tweet every few minutes :D

Tim, when he heard the news this morning...

umDr0mPuyQc

[Wishblade]

Wow, I thought you guys were being sarcastic at first. Then I read the posts.....

He really has finally lost it lol.

[Northend Nerd]

Listen to the baby ranting (crying) on twitter this morning.:tantrum::baby:

http://twitter.com/Tim_Bousquet

Ya he has been going off this morning! He probably had this all drafted up, waiting for this day to come.

[terrynorthend]

Ya he has been going off this morning! He probably had this all drafted up, waiting for this day to come.

Yep, there are at least 5 straight hours of tweets this morning from him. Good to see that the "Editor" of that paper has nothing better to do.

I sure hope he doesn't consider these "billable" hours to his employer. The 99% would be outraged! I'd love to sit around tweeting all day for pay. (Actually, I wouldn't. That sounds boring as hell.)

[someone123]

I saw that more recent Tim Bousquet article and decided not to post it because it was so short on new information and substance.

According to the Herald one of Bousquet's suggestions is already wrong -- he said that the costs will probably go up a lot because of the delay but the Herald is reporting the overall cost is $159M. My understanding is that the cost of some construction materials (e.g. steel) has actually fallen lately because of the real estate bust in the US. Bousquet has also repeatedly and presumably purposefully conflated the public cost for the convention centre ($159M) with the overall price tag for the entire complex, including private office tower and hotel tower.

Bousquet's claim that the convention centre "could" bankrupt the city is a scare tactic. The city's share is $56M and its annual budget is something like $700M. While HRM may be on the hook if there are cost overruns the idea that it would go bankrupt from the convention centre is far-fetched.

[someone123]

The biggest thing that gets me is the obsession and related distortions, not necessarily the political views. Surely many of his readers must get bored of the weekly "dirt" dug up on Peter Kelly. The estate issue is even less relevant now that Kelly has announced that he's not running again.

They must really love him in city hall.

[DigitalNinja]

This is me while reading his tweets.

http://youtu.be/WL1foQKD3OI

[halifaxboyns]

I hope someone puts Tim Bousquet on suicide watch. Maybe he will chain himself to one of the old Herald foundation pilings... :koko:

Perhaps he may become part of the CC as a support column. Then we could say his column supports the CC? :)

[Jstaleness]

From cbc.ca

After months of delay, the provincial government says the developer, Rank Inc., is now ready to break ground. (Rank Inc.)
An opening date has been set for the new trade and convention centre in downtown Halifax, according to a memorandum of agreement between the city and the province.

The Argyle Street complex is expected to open in January 2016.

The Halifax Regional Municipality is set to approve an agreement with the province that could see construction start on the new convention center, hotel and office tower later this year.

After months of delays the price of the $164 million project has increased by $5 million, but the federal government is covering the added cost.

The city and province will cost-share the convention center lease, with an option to buy the building for $1 after 25 years.

Some of the money for the centre will come from new property taxes generated by an 18 story hotel, an office tower, and stores that are part of the larger complex located on two city blocks.

But if those buildings are not finished when the convention center opens, the city can defer part of its annual payment for 10 years.

Developer Joe Ramia is also offering $5 million worth of credit that can be drawn upon.

The province has asked the municipality for a $40,000 contribution toward a new marketing campaign to promote the complex.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/story/2012/07/09/ns-convention-centre-opening-date.html

[DigitalNinja]

Great article! Can't wait to see some equipment on this site! 4 years though construction... Supertalls go up faster than that. :P

[JustinMacD]

Bousquet seems incredibly mentally unstable.

[Keith P.]

Bousquet seems incredibly mentally unstable.

I was just reading his Twitter feed and he must be on some really good stuff tonight. He's talking about affordable housing for the site, dropping nuclear bombs as an experiment... just unreal.

[fenwick16]

I was just reading his Twitter feed and he must be on some really good stuff tonight. He's talking about affordable housing for the site, dropping nuclear bombs as an experiment... just unreal.

Thumbs up to Councillor Sloane (downtowndawn) for defending the convention centre on Tim Bousquets twitter page - https://twitter.com/Tim_Bousquet .

Tim Bousquet has been ranting for almost 2 straight days now about the convention centre. Somehow Tim Bousquet thinks that building the convention centre is equivalent to a a "nuclear winter" experiment. I would say that is just a little bit extreme even for Tim Bousquet.

[DigitalNinja]

He's made 63 tweets today...

I wonder where people get this sense of self entitlement from. And the "I'm right because I say I'm right." mentality. Like holy F, get off your damn high horse just because you write articles for a crappy FREE newspaper doesn't mean that you're a smart guy.

[musicman]

I think he dove into the shallow end of the pool... He's definitly loosing his marbles.

[someone123]

It looks like the increase in cost from the delay is $5M, but that amount will be absorbed by the federal government, not the city. Of course, it's also a bit misleading to focus on the dollar amount of the increase without mentioning that over a period of a year or more the overall inflation rate in Canada was a few percentage points, which works out to a few million dollars for this project. In other words, the real value of money being forked over by the government for this project is only marginally higher now.

Looking forward to an excavation start.

[fenwick16]

Here is a link to the "Convention Centre Memorandum of Agreement" to be discussed in Council tomorrow - http://halifax.ca/council/agendasc/documents/120710ca1119.pdf

[Jstaleness]

As per News957 Council voted "yes" to all 3 of the votes today for this project.

[Wishblade]

And it looks like theres more news to come from the developer. I suspect it is probably the announcement of tenants:

Rank promises 'special' convention centre announcement
Politicians from all levels of government expected for Thursday event

A public statement on the future of the proposed convention centre in downtown Halifax is set for Thursday, as another hurdle facing the development was cleared Tuesday at city hall.

After some heated debate, Halifax regional council endorsed an agreement with the Nova Scotia government over the centre.

Council already voted in favour of the convention complex in December 2010 and has now approved a memorandum of agreement outlining funding and operating arrangements between the two governments.

Halifax developer Rank Inc. has sent out invitations for “a special announcement” about the planned project. Politicians from all three levels of government have been asked to attend the event at Neptune Theatre at 10:30 a.m.

http://thechronicleherald.ca/business/115380-rank-promises-special-convention-centre-announcement

[someone123]

I wonder if they will announce details about any of the tenants on Thursday, or release new renderings?

In Allnovascotia tonight there's an article about the HRM memorandum approval. In it they mention that the plan for the towers remains the same and that construction is supposed to start by this fall. Presumably that means that excavation will not begin for a few months.

[someone123]

Here's a nice photo of Prince Street, taken by Jemsabell on flickr.

This is one of my favourite streetscapes in Halifax because of the older buildings, the hill, and the Citadel at the top. I think the Nova Centre buildings will add a lot to this scene:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8005/7552464564_4cf00e95d4_b.jpg
Source (http://www.flickr.com/photos/jemsabell/7552464564/sizes/l/)

[someone123]

Here's an article on the presentation from today: http://thechronicleherald.ca/metro/116353-ramia-adds-office-tower-to-nova-centre-plans

The news is very positive. Excavation is set to begin in late August. There will be a short public consultation phase and construction will begin in early 2013 (I guess excavation will take a while since this is a large site).

One of the improvements already made is that the hotel will front onto Grafton and there will be two office towers on Argyle Street. It makes a lot of sense to move the hotel component away from the noisy Argyle Street strip.

Here's a link to the consultation website: http://buildyourcentre.ca/

[halifaxboyns]

The gap in that picture will fill in nicely. It will be an interesting mix of old and new.

Two office towers is very exciting! Considering the number of older office buildings in downtown - I wonder if we'll see those convert into something else (perhaps lofts or hotels)?

My only worry with the engagement is how much of it is going to be hijacked with the issue of 'we don't want this white elephant' BS. Hopefully, if they are smart - the nip that in the bud right at the beginning. That is issue is dealt with - this is going foward. Now, what do you want to see. I had engagement where the 'we don't want it' was a big factor and we were constantly fighting that...it will be hard.

[Halifax Hillbilly]

Why bother having engagement at this point? The major design decisions have been made. This should have been done years ago, before the site was chosen.

The big question I have is what will they be doing at street level? This will make or break the project in my mind. Argyle is one of the few interesting and vibrant streets in the city. Let's get this right for a change. The Argyle street presence in particular has to be inviting, interesting and generate lots of foot traffic.

[someone123]

The big question I have is what will they be doing at street level?

I think the consultation is more a concession to improve the optics of the project than anything else at this point, but streetscapes are one area where minor changes (from the perspective of the builder) can have a huge impact. In particular the success of the Grafton Street canopy area will depend a lot on how open it looks, how good the lighting is, etc.

And yeah, I hope things are structured properly so this is focused on finding the best design possible. The last thing we need is yet another rehash of whether or not people agree with a project that has already been approved.

[Keith P.]

My only worry with the engagement is how much of it is going to be hijacked with the issue of 'we don't want this white elephant' BS.

During the event today Bousquet was doing his live-tweeting schtick and the distortion and negativity was something to see. He is calling it "The Monorail" and disparaged all and sundry who were there, especially Ramia, whom he referred to as a dining-room set salesman. What's worse is that some of his media cronies who were there were chiming in along the same lines as well. There is no shortage of negativity here among some of the media in this town. Shameful.

[someone123]

There is a banner up on the Nova Centre lot:

http://p.twimg.com/AxmmkaTCQAAjXA1.jpg
http://twitter.com/RemoZaccagna/status/223392800992018432

The Herald article confirmed that excavation will take 8 months. It will be quite a large construction site.

[Jstaleness]

:previous: Much better than the "art" that was there a few months ago.

[SekishikiMeikaiHa]

Someone beat me to posting the banner. Well, I am going to post mine anyway :banana:
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8161/7559670868_fc33ee7171_b.jpg

[spaustin]

Why bother having engagement at this point? The major design decisions have been made. This should have been done years ago, before the site was chosen.


I agree completely. Consultation at this point is empty window dressing. What's the city going to do at the end of the consultation? Say no if people don't like the design. Whatever Rank wants to do they can at this point since everyone is committed so it feels like a waste of time. I wait with anticipation to see how many people turn out to the sessions outside of Halifax. I'm sure the people of Sydney will eagerly offer up design suggestions for a building in another city.

[Waye Mason]

I agree completely. Consultation at this point is empty window dressing. What's the city going to do at the end of the consultation? Say no if people don't like the design. Whatever Rank wants to do they can at this point since everyone is committed so it feels like a waste of time. I wait with anticipation to see how many people turn out to the sessions outside of Halifax. I'm sure the people of Sydney will eagerly offer up design suggestions for a building in another city.

It is an interesting move. This site is under HRMbD which means they can throw together the plan, send it to HRM staff, and the only public input is an information session, no public meeting. Maybe they want to forestall complaints about the final design by being able to say "1000 people participated".

I am trying to write a timeline but I don't know enough, is Ramia going to hold off on submitting anything to the city until January 2013? So design review and staff review and HRMbD approval all happens by March/April 2013?

Moving the hotel is great, hopefully the parking entrance moved with it. The biggest issue I have at this point is the parking garage entrance on Argyle basically sinks the Argyle street plan. Also, the original plan was bus parking on Argyle for the CC and hotel. This would be a negative thing for the entertainment district. Ideally the first floor facing Argyle will be commercial space and we will see restaurants, bars, and patios facing the newly renovated pedestrian focused Argyle street.

[fenwick16]

Moving the hotel is great, hopefully the parking entrance moved with it. The biggest issue I have at this point is the parking garage entrance on Argyle basically sinks the Argyle street plan. Also, the original plan was bus parking on Argyle for the CC and hotel. This would be a negative thing for the entertainment district. Ideally the first floor facing Argyle will be commercial space and we will see restaurants, bars, and patios facing the newly renovated pedestrian focused Argyle street.

Another advantage to changing the design is that the very wide hotel building will now be two narrower towers (office towers). The new design will be more respective of the HRM_by_Design bylaws. I believe the following sections of the HRM_by_Design manual apply to that precinct (precinct 6): (source: http://www.halifax.ca/capitaldistrict/documents/DHLUBandDesignManual.pdf).


________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
High-Rise Buildings
(7) Any portion of a high-rise building above a height of 33.5 metres shall be setback 11.5 metres from interior lot lines. (doesn't apply, since there are no interior lot lines)
(8) Any portion of a high-rise building above a height of 33.5 metres shall be separated a minimum of 17 metres between the high-rise portion of other buildings or the same building on the same lot, where one of the high-rise buildings is used for commercial purposes.
(9) Any portion of a high-rise building above a height of 33.5 metres shall be a minimum of 23 metres between the high-rise portion of other buildings or the same building on the same lot, where both of the high-rise buildings are used for residential purposes. (doesn't apply, since the towers aren't residential)
(10) Any portion of a building above a height of 33.5 metres shall be a maximum width of 38 metres and a maximum depth of 38 metres.
(11) Notwithstanding subsection (10) any portion of a building above a height of 33.5 metres located in the Central Blocks, as identified on Map 8, shall be a maximum width of 38 metres and a maximum depth of 27.5 metres. (doesn't apply, since the Nova Centre isn't part of the Central Blocks precinct

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


In addition to being more respective of the HRM_by_Design bylaws, it will allow more light on Argyle Street by breaking up the massive wall that the previous hotel design would have created.

:tup: Thumbs up to Joe Ramia for showing confidence in the HRM by proceeding with this project and doing all he can to adhere to the HRM_by_Design manual (even through the previous design was already permitted as an exception in the manual).

I think that the HRM has been blessed by the presence of several developers who really care about the city and have actively become involved in civic affairs (as members of various boards and respecting the heritage nature of the city).

[W.Sobchak]

I only hope that this doesn't turn into another propaganda machine, ie Ships Start Here. That was one of the biggest wastes of money, our too clever by half, NDP government have concocted.

Nobody should be bragging about they're part in this outside of Mr. Ramia. It was rather silly how long it took to get to this project finally in motion.

[fenwick16]

I only hope that this doesn't turn into another propaganda machine, ie Ships Start Here. That was one of the biggest wastes of money, our too clever by half, NDP government have concocted.

Nobody should be bragging about they're part in this outside of Mr. Ramia. It was rather silly how long it took to get to this project finally in motion.

I have to agree. The change in provincial government probably delayed this by almost 3 years. ex-Premier Rodney MacDonald appeared ready to finance it back in May 2009 - http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=148136&page=10. Because of the delay in provincial approval it was delayed further by a federal election.

A larger, more modern convention centre is perfectly suited to Nova Scotia because of the importance of the tourism industry. It never should have taken so longer to reach this point.

[scooby074]

Im not a naysayer... but i am a bit of a realist.

Dont care about blocking view plains. Nor do I care about the endangered Chronicle Turtle that has established a home on the old News ground (;)) Lets fire up the bulldozers!

But, I am concerned if a convention center is the best use of space in these modern times.

I like the office space.. Hotels.. Sure!!! Perfect.

There was an article in the Herald within the last couple days where an "expert" in Texas was saying that we have a severe over capacity in new convention space, and the Halifax centre will just add to it. I believe he mentioned new, large spaces in Niagara, Ottawa, Vancouver, Winnipeg and likely other places I forgot. This is the same "expert" who has been preaching this idea for a while.

Looking past the joy a new development brings, I hope that the centre will be able to generate enough business to sustain itself.

[Keith P.]

There was an article in the Herald within the last couple days where an "expert" in Texas was saying that we have a severe over capacity in new convention space, and the Halifax centre will just add to it. I believe he mentioned new, large spaces in Niagara, Ottawa, Vancouver, Winnipeg and likely other places I forgot. This is the same "expert" who has been preaching this idea for a while.

That's Col. Heywood Saunders, the anti-convention center pundit. The STV/Heritage nimrods brought him in to say how this was the worst thing ever.

I have no idea if it is or isn't. What I do know is that the existing WTCC is hopelessly undersized and obsolete and can no longer attract even regional events. That alone means a new facility should do some business that we currently cannot get.

There is no shortage of negative opinions on any idea in these parts. That doesn't mean they are right.

The same holds true with this obsession with getting the "best" proposal for any site. Up until recently we needed to be happy if we got any proposal at all. Not to say we should allow anything to go anywhere, but this isn't a perfect world and we cannot expect to get whatever some planner thinks is ideal every time. Stuff has a way of working itself out over time.

[ILoveHalifax]

Whether or not the convention business is on the rise or decline, people all over Canada want to come to Halifax. We have a very beautiful city with lots to see and do. People have a great time here.
I am confident that with the proper facilities we will be first choice for lots of convention planners.

[scooby074]

Absolutely the WTCC is past its prime.

And Halifax is probably my favourite place in Canada, so its not a slam at that. Most visitors love the city as well.

It's more a question of whether the Trade Show industry is expanding or contracting. I think with modern technology and corporate belt tightening, the "destination" trade show industry is in decline.

How many centres in the states are giving away (or severely reducing) rental fees in order to attract conventions in the hopes that the visitors will drop some cash in the community. How can Halifax compete with "free"?

When the new centre is finished, what are the plans for the existing WTCC?

[FuzzyWuz]

There was an article in the Herald within the last couple days where an "expert" in Texas was saying that we have a severe over capacity in new convention space, and the Halifax centre will just add to it. I believe he mentioned new, large spaces in Niagara, Ottawa, Vancouver, Winnipeg and likely other places I forgot. This is the same "expert" who has been preaching this idea for a while.

Looking past the joy a new development brings, I hope that the centre will be able to generate enough business to sustain itself.

Heywood Sanders appears to be an expert convention center opposer, whatever else he is qualified to call himself. And he has used as evidence of declining business the fact that various mega-centers didn't do the business they hoped to do. Halifax is not trying to compete with Vegas or any such super convention city. We are trying to make sure that we have a convention center that is the right size for the urban center.

[someone123]

The same holds true with this obsession with getting the "best" proposal for any site. Up until recently we needed to be happy if we got any proposal at all. Not to say we should allow anything to go anywhere, but this isn't a perfect world and we cannot expect to get whatever some planner thinks is ideal every time. Stuff has a way of working itself out over time.

I don't think "best" exists. In a lot of cases in planning there are competing interests and typically it's impossible to please everybody. No matter what the city does, somebody will complain. With that in mind it's obviously not reasonable to hold off on a proposal just because not everybody's happy. Similarly, there's no such thing as a "zero risk" project or "zero risk" budgeting for the city. When people demand that of a project like the convention centre they are setting an impossible standard.

And yeah, STV publicized and presumably arranged for (paid? I don't know they did but I wouldn't be surprised) Saunders to come up and give his talk on why the convention centre is bad. When he did come up, he was very light on specifics for the Halifax case. He seems to have built somewhat of a career out of denouncing convention centres and not an unbiased observer.

The North American convention industry may be in decline but that isn't necessarily true in Atlantic Canada specifically, which has zero regional-sized convention facilities. I think it's also worth mentioning that this is more than just a money-making venture -- it is partly a public asset like the Metro Centre or the library. There's some benefit to having events locally even if the city does not directly profit off of them.

[mcmcclassic]

Here's my two cents worth. Halifax needs a development like the Nova Centre to spur development in the city centre. If the actual building doesn't "break even" financially, it will provide heaps of benefits for local businesses around it.

Aside from the dozens of construction workers Nova Centre will employ, it will provide jobs for the expanding businesses around it. Mr. Ramia indicated that a large portion of Nova Centre will be leased to financial services companies. As a 21 year old International Business major, I would love to have the opportunity to work in our city, and I am positive that other young (other experienced) business employees would love to stay home and work.

Let's take the "NO" out of Nova Scotia and make this province into one that is revered.

[worldlyhaligonian]

And yeah, STV publicized and presumably arranged for (paid? I don't know they did but I wouldn't be surprised) Saunders to come up and give his talk on why the convention centre is bad. When he did come up, he was very light on specifics for the Halifax case. He seems to have built somewhat of a career out of denouncing convention centres and not an unbiased observer.

The North American convention industry may be in decline but that isn't necessarily true in Atlantic Canada specifically, which has zero regional-sized convention facilities. I think it's also worth mentioning that this is more than just a money-making venture -- it is partly a public asset like the Metro Centre or the library. There's some benefit to having events locally even if the city does not directly profit off of them.

These things are easy to lie about... they use aggregate figures for specific time periods. Obviously the economic downtown hurt practically ALL businesses. Unlike "sunset industries" its more about business activity in general and can't be compared to real sunset industries. Even if the trade show / convention industry was examined in this context it would still be considered in the growth stage... regardless of it maybe not increasing at an increasing rate post 2007.

Its an outright fallacy that there will be less trade shows... factually there are more because its the best way for B2B sales to occur.

These folks don't work in international business and quite frankly can have their opinion, but its not correct / based on real analysis. In fact, that guy is essentially running a mini convention to discuss how conventions are in decline.

[RyeJay]

These things are easy to lie about... they use aggregate figures for specific time periods. Obviously the economic downtown hurt practically ALL businesses. Unlike "sunset industries" its more about business activity in general and can't be compared to real sunset industries. Even if the trade show / convention industry was examined in this context it would still be considered in the growth stage... regardless of it maybe not increasing at an increasing rate post 2007.

Its an outright fallacy that there will be less trade shows... factually there are more because its the best way for B2B sales to occur.

These folks don't work in international business and quite frankly can have their opinion, but its not correct / based on real analysis. In fact, that guy is essentially running a mini convention to discuss how conventions are in decline.

There's false information on both sides.

Aside from the rhetoric, the numbers are showing that the convention industry is in decline, but applied specifically to Halifax's context a new convention centre isn't necessarily a bad business decision.

The Nova Centre will not break even and will likely have to be subsidised; however, this is, at least in our predicament, a form of stimulus spending for Halifax's downtown, as this new infrastructure will open the city up to new markets it hadn't access to before.

So yes, Halifax will build the convention centre.
Yes, Halifax will increase its international profile.

Yes, we will continue to urbanise and bring density to our city, so that our increased tax revenues may bring this convention centre provincial subsidy to an end, along with meeting our broader, long-term goal of municipal debt tackling.

[someone123]

The Nova Centre will not break even and will likely have to be subsidised; however, this is, at least in our predicament, a form of stimulus spending for Halifax's downtown, as this new infrastructure will open the city up to new markets it hadn't access to before.

Plenty of people are very selective in what they demand the government break even on. If they don't like something, it's got to turn a profit. If they like it, it should be subsidized.

In most cases if a venture is profitable then that's actually a sign the government is overcharging and perhaps involved in an area best left to the private sector. The big question for the government should be the cost/benefit in terms of social good vs. public spending.

[RyeJay]

Plenty of people are very selective in what they demand the government break even on. If they don't like something, it's got to turn a profit. If they like it, it should be subsidized.

In most cases if a venture is profitable then that's actually a sign the government is overcharging and perhaps involved in an area best left to the private sector. The big question for the government should be the cost/benefit in terms of social good vs. public spending.

Given the track record of oil companies and private insurance companies -- I hardly think it's only the government that's capable of overcharging.

I suspect that with most people, even for things people 'like,' they'd prefer the profitable option as opposed to a subsidy. This is, however, not reality, as products and services will always be subsidised for the very poor. The goal, of course, is to have a balance of capitalism and socialism to ensure that spectrum of poverty is extremely tiny, with the bulk of the population existing within the middle-class, allowing people to work toward an honestly earned wealth.

As far as the Nova Centre's provision of social good vs. the public spending to build it, and then support it afterwards, ...we'll see.

Nevertheless, I'm thrilled this project is going forward. I'm excited for Halifax's downtown. I am just humbly trying to absorb all sides and opinions about this convention centre. I am very bias, in the sense that I love (and love a fuckin lot!) skyscrapers and the vibrancy density brings to cities. I just need to keep reminding myself, as I indulge in my excitment for what the downtown is gaining, that not all investments are necessarily money-making investments, even in the context of the downtown.

But I am certainly optimistic. :D

[worldlyhaligonian]

There's false information on both sides.

Aside from the rhetoric, the numbers are showing that the convention industry is in decline, but applied specifically to Halifax's context a new convention centre isn't necessarily a bad business decision.



What numbers are these?

How is it an industry in decline? This is a layperson's view. Over time there have been more conventions / trade shows. Its not even worth debating... I've had the responsibility in the past of generating lists of trade shows, its mindboggling to see how many there are.

[HalifaxRetales]

By Saturday afternoon the trees already looked like this

http://halifax.retales.ca/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/IMG_1866.jpg

not a good sign for attention to detail and upkeep :)

[kwajo]

Maybe it's a follow-up to the "dead" mannequin bodies, this time with plants :haha:

[halifaxboyns]

What numbers are these?

How is it an industry in decline? This is a layperson's view. Over time there have been more conventions / trade shows. Its not even worth debating... I've had the responsibility in the past of generating lists of trade shows, its mindboggling to see how many there are.

If you watch the STV program on youtube and the portion where Alan Ruffman is speaking - the Canadian convention numbers actually show a stable level, with a slightly increasing trend. Yet, if you listen to what he's saying - he's taking the US numbers and painting the picture that the Canadian convention market is declining as well when the graphics behind him clearly show that's not the case (for Canada).

[someone123]

If you watch the STV program on youtube and the portion where Alan Ruffman is speaking - the Canadian convention numbers actually show a stable level, with a slightly increasing trend. Yet, if you listen to what he's saying - he's taking the US numbers and painting the picture that the Canadian convention market is declining as well when the graphics behind him clearly show that's not the case (for Canada).

Yeah, that was sad. One of many instances where the facts take a back seat when preaching to the choir. In the end however Alan Ruffman et al. have not been very successful at obstructing progress, thankfully.

A lot of people seem to think they "know" that industries like conventions are dying, but actually they are just speculating.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Yeah, that was sad. One of many instances where the facts take a back seat when preaching to the choir. In the end however Alan Ruffman et al. have not been very successful at obstructing progress, thankfully.

A lot of people seem to think they "know" that industries like conventions are dying, but actually they are just speculating.

Yeah, speculation based on their "hunch"... just like how the world is going to end tomorrow.

Its all b/s. First of all, the "convention / trade show industry" isn't even an industry per se and it varies in success by the growth of specific industries. There are more information technology / ecommerce type of trade shows than ever in the past. Think about it... that industry didn't even really exist 30 years ago in the way it does now.

There has been an explosion in the growth of "green" conferences and trade shows. Nobody was having business-environment shows 20 years ago.

Industrial products will always have trade shows... its a convergence of industry, government and even academia. A foreign buyer needs the touch and feel of a product and its more cost effective for firms to sell in this way.

I don't even want to address the arguments of the other side because they aren't supported by any real evidence.

Furthermore, the whole judgement on how to spend public dollars is stupid. More money goes to support things that have no positive economic return for the government. Even at a loss, its one of the best vehicles to support regional business, particularly SME because it brings buyers to NS/Halifax/Canada.

Businesses employ people and giving them a venue is better than all these ridiculous loans you hear about in the maritimes.

I don't get why people think TCL is soo bad either? They've been in a sub par building for years.

I would be embarrassed to work in international business in Halifax and have to take foreign buyers to the current WTCC.

[halifaxboyns]

I find it interesting that a relatively new convention that seems to have sprung up in Halifax was the security forum that's been held in Halifax since 2009. Makes sense, considering Halifax's military and naval assets. But this to me is an example of a new conference (although still small) that could easily grow and benefit from the new convention centre.

I also think that there are other opportunities for new conferences as the economy improves. The fact that offshore oil is still going strong in NFLD and is likely something to grow in NS there is opportunities there. I'd personally like to see a major convention for the Canadian Institute of Planners in Halifax and maybe down the road a World Planners Congress (since the last one was in Vancouver some time ago).

[someone123]

I was down by the new Vancouver convention centre building the other night. I don't think there was a convention, but it was packed with people. There are a number of commercial spaces around the outside with restaurants and pubs and large outdoor patios. The boardwalk wraps around the building and people can climb up part of it. Lots of people were sitting on the benches and wandering around in the lookoffs.

If the Nova Centre's done well it could have a similar atmosphere. The covered area along Grafton could be a great year-round, basically all weather outdoor event space, for example. Hopefully over the course of the public consultations they will really nail down features like that and identify the most important design elements.

[Keith P.]

By Saturday afternoon the trees already looked like this

http://halifax.retales.ca/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/IMG_1866.jpg

not a good sign for attention to detail and upkeep :)

Obvious vandalism by a disgruntled opponent. Round up the usual suspects. ;)

[halifaxboyns]

Perhaps a symbolic representation of the reaction of the STV people?

[Northend Guy]

http://halifax.retales.ca/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/IMG_1866.jpg

STV: "The trees are too tall! Take them down!"

[halifaxboyns]

Was just reading about the first engagement event on the 24th. There will be live streaming with an opening address from Chief Terry Paul. Apparently it's being held at the St. David's Hall and speakers will be limited to 3 minute presentations. I was reading the engagement goals too - loved the point (b) "Provide clear expectations on what can change and what cannot."

Hopefully that will quiet people to bringing the argument forward of we don't want tax payer dollars in this. That decision has been made. I also like that the first event is being held at a venue close to the site. While the second event is down at the Seaport Farmers Market (I probably would've chosen to stay close to the site for all of them), at least they are staying close to downtown. I just see a symbolic relationship of holding these events close to the site to keep people inspired to think, but that's just me.

[Waye Mason]

To me, while less than delighted at the P3 model, and not believing the TCL projections (I just don't believe them), there are a number of things about this that give me hope and excite me about the whole project, of which the CC is but a part.

1 - the project is $550 mil, right? Take out the convention centre part, at $160 mill, that still leaves $390 million in new development to be taxed. Divide that by 100 and times 3.5 (slightly lower than the actual commercial tax rate I can't be bothered to look up) and you get $13.65 million in tax revenue from the rest of the development. This means that the taxes from development more than cover the cost of leasing and operating the new CC, so it is a wash, or better than a wash, the city comes out a head, so lets stop hand wringing about it.

2 - moving the hotel to the Market street side, with the CC on the Argyle side, says to me that the whole site WILL be built all at the same time

3 - moving the hotel to the Market side means two smaller (in width) point towers on the Argyle side, which will be much better for the bar district.

4 - I really do get the feeling Ramia wants this to be his "legacy" to the city. This is why the consulting stuff is happening. He wants to sell this to the people, so that as many as possible look back and say "great job Joe" in 20 years.

As long as he gets the damn garage door off of Argyle this will be fine. Heh.

[worldlyhaligonian]

To me, while less than delighted at the P3 model, and not believing the TCL projections (I just don't believe them), there are a number of things about this that give me hope and excite me about the whole project, of which the CC is but a part.

1 - the project is $550 mil, right? Take out the convention centre part, at $160 mill, that still leaves $390 million in new development to be taxed. Divide that by 100 and times 3.5 (slightly lower than the actual commercial tax rate I can't be bothered to look up) and you get $13.65 million in tax revenue from the rest of the development. This means that the taxes from development more than cover the cost of leasing and operating the new CC, so it is a wash, or better than a wash, the city comes out a head, so lets stop hand wringing about it.

2 - moving the hotel to the Market street side, with the CC on the Argyle side, says to me that the whole site WILL be built all at the same time

3 - moving the hotel to the Market side means two smaller (in width) point towers on the Argyle side, which will be much better for the bar district.

4 - I really do get the feeling Ramia wants this to be his "legacy" to the city. This is why the consulting stuff is happening. He wants to sell this to the people, so that as many as possible look back and say "great job Joe" in 20 years.

As long as he gets the damn garage door off of Argyle this will be fine. Heh.

Good analysis Waye, its not the worst P3 arrangement ever. Given that this is Halifax, this development will be our trade centre, etc for longer than intended and its worth the expenditure now while material and labour prices aren't as high as they will be.

[halifaxboyns]

I have to agree, that's a very good analysis. I also have to agree, get the garage doors off Agricola. I'd be quite happy with it being on Market street. While I hate to sacrific any particular street, given that Grafton will be the pedestrian prominade and Argyle is where we should focus retail (to help get people down into the bar district) - I'd say Market is your only choice.

[someone123]

Market Street is kind of a write off already. In an area with no alleys, the loading bays still have to go somewhere and Market is the best option.

I think P3 gets a lot of misplaced criticism. At the end of the day it can be good or bad depending on the bargaining skills of the parties involved and how they structure their deal. Bad P3 deals of the past weren't bad because they were P3, they were bad because negotiation or planning was poor or corrupt. I would say that the Nova Centre is a pretty good candidate for P3 because a deal like that allows the government to capture some of the added value in industries they do not participate in directly (hotel and office towers).

[Dr SweetLove]

How many different renderings have been produced for the trade center

I know the first ones that kinda looked like the eaton center in t.o....1980ish

And the most recent ones...has there been any I between the two

Also can anyone tell me which pages have the most recent renderings on them so I can view them in a larger size than what is on the header of this thread

Please!! And thank u!!

[halifaxboyns]

Don't forget tonight is the first public consultation meeting for Nova Centre. Details on the Nova Centre website. It will be live streamed too.

[halifaxboyns]

Live streaming from this website:
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/buildyourcentre

[someone123]

Hopefully they will release some more details about the project and some new renderings.

[halifaxboyns]

I suspect that would be engagement later on down the road. This is more about what people think and some thoughts. I would think they would debut changes once this phase is done.

So far the conversation seems to be good - I think those against the project didn't bother to come out because they saw it as a waste of time. *knock on wood*

[CorbeauNoir]

I was very happily surprised to see how many positive remarks there were - perhaps the average Coast readership has left me cynical. I particularly enjoyed Dawn and FRED's comments

[Waye Mason]

I was very happily surprised to see how many positive remarks there were - perhaps the average Coast readership has left me cynical. I particularly enjoyed Dawn and FRED's comments

Went down... 60-65 people in the room, only 20-25 were civilians, the rest were politicians (edit: and aspirants heh), developers, handlers, media people, public relations people, and various and sundry stakeholders and special interest groups. It was kind of funny.

A lot of impatience... it is being built, so let's get to talking about how the building works with the city around it... 2 hour temperature check was a bit of a waste of time.

[halifaxboyns]

I think people's impatience is more frustration with process. They feel that they should've been involved more in the decision making, but I don't agree with that. Economic Development isn't about public engagement, if that was the case we probably wouldn't have a WTCC now.

As shocking as this may sound - I do agree with Bev Miller (or it may have been Mr. Ruffman). If people are putting their opinions up on post it notes and those opinions don't come back to the next meeting; that is a problem. Even if the meeting is on a different topic, it should be something that people can see and read to help them think of ideas.

I've done a lot of engagement using the world cafe method, but I always bring back to the next sessions the comments from the previous. They help people with understanding what other people are thinking, avoid repetition and can help people think about other things.

I missed Fred's comments, but I did see Dawn's. I rather enjoyed her parting remark about do we want a giant hole in the middle of downtown for another 20 years.

[someone123]

They feel that they should've been involved more in the decision making, but I don't agree with that. Economic Development isn't about public engagement, if that was the case we probably wouldn't have a WTCC now.

Everybody is caught up in their own small world, whatever it is. You can see it in the Save the View material -- everything is about preservation, to the extent that they think the economics will just fall into place if we follow their advice on building heights. That's not how it works. If the economic concerns were so simple to sort out then every city would have a vibrant, wonderful downtown. The vast majority in North America do not.

I'm sure that there are a thousand constraints and considerations that most people don't even think about when it comes to something like building a convention centre, and it may not even be realistic to enumerate all of them during public consultation.

I missed Fred's comments, but I did see Dawn's. I rather enjoyed her parting remark about do we want a giant hole in the middle of downtown for another 20 years.

As an aside, isn't Dawn Sloane running for the North End in October? I guess she might have always run as the "Gottingen" councillor had it not been a part of the downtown.

[Keith P.]

I really fail to see the point of this consultation. Why go to places like Sydney and Wolfville to talk about a convention center in DT Halifax? That makes no sense. Then you have the usual types bitching because it doesn't deal with youth program funding cuts, transition houses, affordable housing, whatever the issue du jour of the left is on any given day. They fail to realize that govt funds programs from tax revenues, which comes about as a result of people working for groups other than the govt. So why give these types a platform to denounce growing the economy, something they clearly do not understand? It all strikes me as a large wasted effort.

[someone123]

I really fail to see the point of this consultation. Why go to places like Sydney and Wolfville to talk about a convention center in DT Halifax? That makes no sense.

The point of this is that they will be able to say that they did public consultation (even in the hinterland).

I will consider the process a success if they do not add any sheet metal lighthouses to the project.

[Copes]

I really fail to see the point of this consultation. Why go to places like Sydney and Wolfville to talk about a convention center in DT Halifax? That makes no sense. Then you have the usual types bitching because it doesn't deal with youth program funding cuts, transition houses, affordable housing, whatever the issue du jour of the left is on any given day. They fail to realize that govt funds programs from tax revenues, which comes about as a result of people working for groups other than the govt. So why give these types a platform to denounce growing the economy, something they clearly do not understand? It all strikes me as a large wasted effort.

I can't speak for Sydney, but having grown up in Wolfville, I know a large number of residents who commute to Halifax on a regular basis. My father is in Halifax at least a day or two a week, and my best friend's father carpools every day.

However I see your point. Also worth spreading out provincially because a large portion of funding is coming from the provincial government.

[Northend Nerd]

The next event is tomorrow night at the Seaport Market.

http://www.facebook.com/events/380425428677670/

[beyeas]

I can't speak for Sydney, but having grown up in Wolfville, I know a large number of residents who commute to Halifax on a regular basis. My father is in Halifax at least a day or two a week, and my best friend's father carpools every day.

However I see your point. Also worth spreading out provincially because a large portion of funding is coming from the provincial government.

And yet when Pictou got a new rec centre, funded purely with public dollars, they didn't do consultation here in Halifax to get my input. Halifax is treated differently because it is the big bad bogeyman that people love to hate.

[someone123]

And yet when Pictou got a new rec centre, funded purely with public dollars, they didn't do consultation here in Halifax to get my input. Halifax is treated differently because it is the big bad bogeyman that people love to hate.

There's a lot more bitterness in NS than I notice here in BC toward Vancouver. I have also yet to hear the provincial government or anybody in Vancouver apologize for any major investments in the city -- and the province of BC invests far more in Vancouver, even in relative terms. Since I moved here for example the province spent $500M on a stadium overhaul and they have paid for a third or more of two rapid transit lines. Halifax doesn't even have a stadium, and the new bus depot in Dartmouth was considered a huge undertaking. Oh yes, and Vancouver's new convention centre was $883M, of which BC paid $541M. The City of Vancouver paid zip for its convention centre. As far as I know that project did not involve consulting people in Prince George.

We see the same thing on a smaller scale when it comes to downtown Halifax, which supposedly "gets everything" despite being dead last in a study of public investment in Canadian downtowns.

I hope the city and province can move past all this in the coming years. We'll soon be at the point where most people in NS will live in Halifax. The Halifax economy is already about 50% of the NS economy -- it's where a huge share of provincial taxes are collected, and it's the part of NS that relies least on transfers like welfare and EI. If it weren't for Halifax, NS would be screwed.

[q12]

There's a lot more bitterness in NS than I notice here in BC toward Vancouver. I have also yet to hear the provincial government or anybody in Vancouver apologize for any major investments in the city -- and the province of BC seems to invest far more in Vancouver, even in relative terms. Since I moved here for example the province spent $500M on a stadium overhaul and they have paid for a third or more of two rapid transit lines. Halifax doesn't even have a stadium, and the new bus depot in Dartmouth was considered a huge ordeal. Oh yes, and Vancouver's new convention centre was $883M, of which BC paid $541M. The City of Vancouver paid zip for its convention centre. As far as I know that project did not involve consulting people in Prince George.

I hope the city and province can move past all this in the coming years. We'll soon be at the point where most people in NS will live in Halifax. The Halifax economy is already about 50% of the NS economy -- it's where a huge share of provincial taxes are collected, and it's the part of NS that relies least on transfers like welfare and EI. If it weren't for Halifax, NS would be screwed.

I agree completely, I think with Halifax's growth, Nova Scotia is becoming more like a Manitoba.

Halifax's population now is roughly 50% of Nova Scotia and Halifax's ecomomic region is probably more like 66% of the population.

[isaidso]

I agree completely, I think with Halifax's growth, Nova Scotia is becoming more like a Manitoba.


It's sad. Halifax is an island of prosperity in a province that is in decline in every way imaginable. One of the things I like about Nova Scotia is that you can't drive more than 20 minutes without hitting a community, town, etc.

At the rate things are going in 50 years the tiny communities under 1,000 people that dot the province will turn into ghost towns. Is the Michelin plant still in operation?

[MonctonRad]

It's sad. Halifax is an island of prosperity in a province that is in decline in every way imaginable. One of the things I like about Nova Scotia is that you can't drive more than 20 minutes without hitting a community, town, etc.

I agree.

I'm a strong supporter of the Nova Centre and I appreciate growth and development in HRM, but it's a shame that the whole province (especially Cape Breton) can't share in the prosperity.

In some ways, a Nova Scotia with 75% of the population living in metro Halifax would be a much poorer, less varied and less interesting place......