[Halifax] Nova Centre | 65-58-58 m | 16-15-14 fl | Completed

[fenwick16]

www.savetheview.ca also says that
"The proposed Convention Centre towers fly in the face of current best practices in the world’s great historic cities like London, Paris, Jerusalem, Vienna, Charleston and Quebec City. These great cities are tightening design controls and blocking the erection of towers in their city centres. Shouldn’t Halifax, a great Canadian historic city, be doing the same?"

However I would surmise that they haven't taken a real good look at the towers currently under construction (and proposed) in the City and in Westminster/Lambeth etc...it also helps cities like London and Paris is that they have set aside areas specifically for high-rise construction because they have the space, money, economy and political will do do so...where would they propose building "LaDefense" in Halifax???

If they did a bit more homework, they work also see that Quebec City has a number of highrise proposals, including this one - http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=169160 . I think that the people writing these things hope that no one will do any further research. That is what annoys me the most about this group - they think that people will just blindly accept all of their twisted facts. Maybe before the internet came along that was the case but now ....

[fenwick16]

Anyone have the link for this petition. I'd like to sign it if it's still an option. :-)

It is closed since it has already been presented. However, the names are here - http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/support-the-new-halifax-convention-centre-construction.html . It had about 2.5 times the number of signatures as the Save the View petition.

[terrynorthend]

If they did a bit more homework, they work also see that Quebec City has a number of highrise proposals, including this one - http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=169160 .

Oh, I like that. I like the night rendering with the skylights from the roof.

[Jringe01]

It is closed since it has already been presented. However, the names are here - http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/support-the-new-halifax-convention-centre-construction.html . It had about 2.5 times the number of signatures as the Save the View petition.

Cool, thanks Fenwick. I settled for liking it on FB. :-)

[halifaxboyns]

Not sure if anyone had posted this yet. Found this on the Herald website today...

Urban core: more at stake than two developments

By BERNARD SMITH
Wed, Aug 4 - 4:53 AM

We may be losing the art of debate and replacing it with an aggressive imperative to win. If this is so, it is regrettable: Debate at least stands some chance of extracting the best from the disparate views. Surely we should aspire to reach the best.

A recent article in this newspaper by Laura Penny compares the two current major investment options being contemplated for Halifax, the new civic library and the proposed convention centre. In the article, the library is seen as a needed public investment while the convention centre is seen as an inappropriate subsidization of entrepreneurial activity.

There are some interesting parallels between the two projects which have not been fully examined in Ms. Penny’s article. First, both of the issues are before us at this time due to the fact that previous generations did not build edifices that were sufficiently large or flexible. They were built for what appeared to be the reasonable needs of their time.

What those before us failed to do, however, was to allow for sufficient future adaptability. Both of these existing facilities have been judged unable to be satisfactorily expanded. This generation faces the question of whether to invest further substantial funding into new facilities as a result of not being able to modify existing structures.

There are more parallels to be examined. Going beyond the immediate issue of funding, we are faced with the possible replacement of two public facilities — one a learning centre, the second a large meeting space — both of which could be rendered obsolete by rapidly advancing technology and by changes in public demand or needs. Surely one lesson to be learned from this is to insist on maximum possible flexibility being built into new facilities.

Who can see ahead 30 years to the needs of the library and the convention centre in 2040, any more than they could see ahead to our present needs back when the original facilities were put in place? We should surely learn from past decisions and build in the potential to adapt and possibly to expand. There will almost inevitability be a future need in our society for large meeting spaces and for smaller meeting and research spaces, for isn’t that what these facilities really are?

How these facilities are to be financed is really another issue, which isn’t helped by bringing in the ghosts of past efforts at economic expansion. These are needed pieces of public infra-structure which would normally be provided by government. Shell-shocked by the very examples alluded to in the article, government is less anxious to develop and run major facilities, even though government can still borrow at lower cost than the private sector and is still expected to lead the way in many respects.

Government has been shocked by its inability to build well and operate economically, even if it can borrow well. A few more P3 fiascos may cause us to put government back into its historic delivery mode.

The P3 schools were surely mainly brought about by poor government tendering and contract administration in the past. This left us with some poorly constructed and designed facilities, which, combined with a lack of adequate maintenance, resulted in the need to replace them. Had that been competently dealt with in the past, we might not have needed replacement schools in the form of P3s in an effort to keep debt off the government balance sheet.

There are at least two other major gaps in our downtown streetscapes and a great deal more under-utilization to be considered in addition to the library and former Herald sites: the site of the much-debated "Twisted Sisters," which seems likely to remain vacant for some years to come, and the once again ignored Cogswell interchange. We must ask ourselves, as a society, why sites in our downtown remain undeveloped.

A major potential building at the end of Granville Mall, owned by Sobeys, has remained undeveloped, with all approvals in place for an immediate start, for the past 30 years. The Sobey empire can provide the needed funds to build with little more than the stroke of a pen. The reasons these lands remain vacant are the very reasons why our downtown struggles.

Somewhere between relative commercial taxation levels, the availability of subsidized land on the periphery, the effectiveness and cost of transportation, and the changing needs of business, lies a $10-per-square-foot, per year, cost differential between our downtown core and suburban commercial sites. Until we, as a society, recognize and debate these issues, we will continue to have under-utilization in our city centre and arguments about how and where to invest will continue.

In all probability, many of these fights about whether "to build or not to build" in our urban centre would not take place if the area was vibrant and successful. Developers would have more resources to devote to making their buildings innovative and attractive.

The underlying fact is that the city should deal with this disadvantage to its urban core.

Bernard Smith is manager of the Spring Garden Area Business Association.

From the Chronical Herald Online.

[someone123]

Yep, Jonovision posted it in General Updates and News.

It is a good article. It's frustrating that things haven't improved more quickly but I think at the very least the debate is coming more and more into focus. I dislike articles that talk about how the downtown area needs "new vitality" or whatever - way too vague to be useful. Arguments about investment and taxation are more concrete, much closer to an explanation of the situation, and describe things that can be changed.

All I can hope for is that the city is slowly "waking up" and that we'll see more and more action. It will be about 10 years too late (good overall economic times make it possible to invest in the downtown), but better late than never...

[worldlyhaligonian]

Ugh, I can't even tell whose side people are on in this debate. What scares me even more is when false statements are picked up by these "journalists" as fact and they end up in our medium (newspapers) via the communication process. Sometimes people on the pro-side have to even address alot of these lies directly as if they presented a real threat to this project being a success.

The irony here is that the obstructionists are using misinformation tactics similar to the neo-con Bush and Blair administrations did to go into Iraq. (Even though these are likely very liberal people.) They even produced false images of what the view would look like and purposefully distributed this material via the internet.

sdm - I know you don't agree with me on the feasibility side... but other than recessionary pressures at play, I have not read any real evidence to show that conventions/conferences/trade shows are actually on an aggregate decline.

The newspaper analogy isn't proven. Sure, I can see that communications technologies are making the world smaller and reducing the need for travel in every case. That being said, its pretty hard for people in the industrial sectors not to physically see equipment, etc.

The analogy is almost equivalent to saying eventually we won't even have to go to stores in the future because we can just buy everything online. Touch and feel are very important parts of being human and I doubt that trade shows or shopping will ever cease to exist.

How can we as Nova Scotians actually not gain from this development! There is soo much free federal money and we just spend 40 MILLION ON 4 RINKS out in the burbs.

Lets get this done so we can build capacity the city and province.

[someone123]

The videoconferencing type argument doesn't hold water. If it were true then there wouldn't be giant new conferences like PAX which emerged from online communication - people could just talk to each other online but they are willing to spend significant amounts of money to sometimes meet each other in person.

Conferences are standard in academia and useful in many industries for demonstrating products - even things like video games that aren't tangible and could be distributed online through demos. These conferences and conventions are not going away anytime soon, we're just seeing the same old Maritime defeatist "why bother?" attitude.

No third bridge, cars are on their way out. No convention centre, conventions are dying. No library, books are finished. No condos, we have enough already.

[worldlyhaligonian]

The videoconferencing type argument doesn't hold water. If it were true then there wouldn't be giant new conferences like PAX which emerged from online communication - people could just talk to each other online but they are willing to spend significant amounts of money to sometimes meet each other in person.

Conferences are standard in academia and useful in many industries for demonstrating products - even things like video games that aren't tangible and could be distributed online through demos. These conferences and conventions are not going away anytime soon, we're just seeing the same old Maritime defeatist "why bother?" attitude.

No third bridge, cars are on their way out. No convention centre, conventions are dying. No library, books are finished. No condos, we have enough already.

Great points... there are tons of video game conference's for christ's sake... it takes alot to pull somebody away from WOW or whatever they play.

I think we could attract alot of ICT conferences as well, Halifax is a pretty big player in Canadian telecom.

The obstructionists want nothing to change and oppose everything... but they honestly are the people that contribute the least to Halifax anyway. Being against things isn't positive.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Does the Nova Centre proposal connect to the rest of the downtown pedway system? If so, we could have an above ground version of Montreal's "underground city" on our hands if this and IP get built.

[sdm]

Does the Nova Centre proposal connect to the rest of the downtown pedway system? If so, we could have an above ground version of Montreal's "underground city" on our hands if this and IP get built.

i believe it is connected, but underground. How i am not sure as there is a significant distance to the existing trade centre. The above ground pedways were killed with HRM by design, in that any connections i.e. pedways are required to be underground now. Not sure if i think that is economically feasible considering halifax has a lot of rock and well the downtown is built on the side of a hill.

That said, I've heard from some good sources IP has been place on hold for close to 5 years. Reasons stated are that the office market has gotten worse downtown.

Although not a surpised based on the data i've seen, its sad because that building is simply awesome design. I think we may hear of others holding off till things sort out.

[JustinMacD]

How can we as Nova Scotians actually not gain from this development! There is soo much free federal money and we just spend 40 MILLION ON 4 RINKS out in the burbs.

Lets get this done so we can build capacity the city and province.

+1

It's amazing how much money is pissed away on hockey rinks.

[worldlyhaligonian]

+1

It's amazing how much money is pissed away on hockey rinks.

Its not just hockey rinks...

the councillors and public get their shorts in a knot over any spending on IMPORTANT infrastructure, but when it comes to substandard sports facilities all over the HRM, some how the spending is legitimized.

I wonder what the total figure for the Canada Games Centre and all these other facilities that have been built. I would bet money that it could have gone to build 1 real stadium that would have wayyy more impact. The Nova Centre is really a no brainer and they are worried about spending a little bit more on a project that will generate economic spin offs.

And to address the obesiety point... it isn't valid. There are going to be fat people in the maritimes because the diets and lifestyle people have. Putting a 4 hockey rink out in the burbs does nothing to reduce this fact. Plus, I know tons of fat hockey players because the sport is only as demanding as the player is willing to work. Sometimes the fat guys are good because they play positional.

Or... the money could be spent on transportation initiatives. But no, they can't even get a bus terminal built in dartmouth.

[fenwick16]

On the plus side, the terminal is going ahead in Dartmouth. I read that the city would soon send out tenders (source - a few days ago in allnovascotia.com).

[hfxtradesman]

It looks like all the questions have been asked by the Gov. and all in good response now we wait for Sept to come.

[halifaxboyns]

I also found this on the agenda for tonight's council meeting...interesting.
Presentation to Council request (http://www.halifax.ca/council/agendasc/documents/100817cai09.pdf).

[halifaxboyns]

Did anyone tune into city council tonight?

[Haliguy]

Convention centre decision imminent
Estabrooks to consult premier before revealing his view on government funding
By JEFFREY SIMPSON Provincial Reporter
Fri, Sep 3 - 4:53 AM

Infrastructure Minister Bill Estabrooks will reveal his decision on the proposed Halifax convention centre later this month. (PETER PARSONS/Staff)

Infrastructure Minister Bill Estabrooks suggested Thursday that he’s made up his mind about whether a proposed convention centre in downtown Halifax deserves government funding.

"I had real opportunity to look at a lot of the specifics," Estabrooks said. "It’s been quite a positive learning experience for me. There’s a couple more weeks of to-and-fro I have with my staff. I have meetings scheduled each week with them."

But he’ll wait until later this month to share his opinion publicly, he said.

"It’s imminent for sure; the decision is not far away."

Estabrooks said he wants to discuss the matter with Premier Darrell Dexter first.

[sdm]

Convention centre decision imminent
Estabrooks to consult premier before revealing his view on government funding
By JEFFREY SIMPSON Provincial Reporter
Fri, Sep 3 - 4:53 AM

Infrastructure Minister Bill Estabrooks will reveal his decision on the proposed Halifax convention centre later this month. (PETER PARSONS/Staff)

Infrastructure Minister Bill Estabrooks suggested Thursday that he’s made up his mind about whether a proposed convention centre in downtown Halifax deserves government funding.

"I had real opportunity to look at a lot of the specifics," Estabrooks said. "It’s been quite a positive learning experience for me. There’s a couple more weeks of to-and-fro I have with my staff. I have meetings scheduled each week with them."

But he’ll wait until later this month to share his opinion publicly, he said.

"It’s imminent for sure; the decision is not far away."

Estabrooks said he wants to discuss the matter with Premier Darrell Dexter first.

In other words, there is no decision yet.

[Keith P.]

Fearless prediction: they do not support it.

[terrynorthend]

Fearless prediction: they do not support it.

Agree. It will probably go something like this. "While the Province of Nova Scotia supports the principals of economic development and the appreciates the need for an expanded convention centre, the current economic picture of Nova Scotia does not allow for us to lend financial support to the proposal in hand at this time."

[Keith P.]

Agree. It will probably go something like this. "While the Province of Nova Scotia supports the principals of economic development and the appreciates the need for an expanded convention centre, the current economic picture of Nova Scotia does not allow for us to lend financial support to the proposal in hand at this time."

The sad thing is that such an announcement will be seen as a victory for the Save The View obstructionists, when in reality it is simply a financial decision.

[halifaxboyns]

The sad thing is that such an announcement will be seen as a victory for the Save The View obstructionists, when in reality it is simply a financial decision.

I think it will all depend on how its framed. If they don't support it and frame it from the perspective that they want to get the books in a row first and frame their answers from an economic perspective only (never mention HT or STV) - then they can say all they want but the reality will be it's economic.

Plus if they say something like 'we can't do it now; but we may look at it in a couple of years when the books look better' - at best; it would be a temporary victory.

Personally - I'm torn because from what I can see; there is federal money (am I mistaken?) and the city is on board - but i'd rather not move back and be paying this thing off for years. If the books can be brought to black; better. But - either way; I'd like to see it built. I'll leave it to the politicians and just sit back and see what happens lol.

[Empire]

I think it will all depend on how its framed. If they don't support it and frame it from the perspective that they want to get the books in a row first and frame their answers from an economic perspective only (never mention HT or STV) - then they can say all they want but the reality will be it's economic.

Plus if they say something like 'we can't do it now; but we may look at it in a couple of years when the books look better' - at best; it would be a temporary victory.

Personally - I'm torn because from what I can see; there is federal money (am I mistaken?) and the city is on board - but i'd rather not move back and be paying this thing off for years. If the books can be brought to black; better. But - either way; I'd like to see it built. I'll leave it to the politicians and just sit back and see what happens lol.

The danger here is that no one in the Gov. will understand the concept, specs, buisness plan, economic opportunity or positive impact that the Convention Centre will have on the community. Therefore, the safe route will be to cop-out as with the Commonwealth Games.

[Haliguy]

Fearless prediction: they do not support it.

I really hope your wrong on this prediction...I really do. There is going to be some majot fall out if they do no support it.

[halifaxboyns]

I really hope your wrong on this prediction...I really do. There is going to be some majot fall out if they do no support it.

Well let's think of the negatives and look at them?
1) You'd have two blocks of downtown as a giant hole (potentially);
2) No new convention centre;
3) No new jobs created (to build and then run the centre).

That's all I can think of for now - but it's certainly enough in my mind to worry. Time will tell I guess?

[fenwick16]

If they do reject it then I would think that the NDP will be facing a high level of criticism from both business groups and labour groups in the Halifax area that will see it as lost revenue and employment.

My concern is what Rank Inc. will do with so much office space in the downtown core when it seems as though most is currently being built in the suburbs. Maybe they can change their plans and convert some to residential space instead of office space (within the Nova Centre proposal).

[someone123]

If they do reject it it will likely become an "any day now" project and the site will sit empty for years.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Not to mention we would be essentially turning down federal funds, which would be the stupidest move we could make as a province/municipality.

People talk about tax payers footing the bill, but I don't mind it so much if everybody else in the country helps to pay for a significant amount of our convention centre... you would never see Quebec or a western province turn down federal funds. Hell, its about time we get something from the feds.

This is a turning point in the history of NS and we need this injection to remain competitive vs. other provinces. I don't think people realize how well the west is doing right now... they are extremely pro business and are becoming quite prosperous, even SK and MB. The east could learn a thing or two about their pride and productivity.

[Haliguy]

Well let's think of the negatives and look at them?
1) You'd have two blocks of downtown as a giant hole (potentially);
2) No new convention centre;
3) No new jobs created (to build and then run the centre).

That's all I can think of for now - but it's certainly enough in my mind to worry. Time will tell I guess?


Huge lost of spinoff investment in the downtown

[MonctonRad]

If they do reject it then I would think that the NDP will be facing a high level of criticism from both business groups and labour groups in the Halifax area that will see it as lost revenue and employment.

One would wonder why the NDP would reject this project since they are, after all, the "party of Halifax". Halifax is their base of operations. If the NDP alienates Halifax, they would be shooting themselves in the foot wouldn't they?

Unless that is, the NDP's core demographic (that they want to protect) is the "Heritage Trust, Save the View, Friends of the Commons" group of leftist wingnuts.

At least you guys will have a chance to see exactly who it is that the NDP regime of Darryl Dexter is really pandering to! :hell:

[fenwick16]

I took this from wikipedia.com regarding Premier Dexter
A former Chair and member Board of the Dartmouth Downtown Development Corporation, Dexter also sat as Chair of the Dartmouth Waterfront Development Task Force. He was once a member of the Dartmouth General Hospital Commission and Chair of the Dartmouth Common Committee
How did Premier Dexter usually vote as a Dartmouth Councillor - for or against large development projects? The fact that he was chair of the Dartmouth Common Committee explains why he was initially against the new Dartmouth Transit Terminal next to the Sportsplex. Nevertheless the Dartmouth Terminal is proceeding which indicates that he is somewhat open-minded and somewhat progressive if the case warrants.

Does anyone remember how Premier Dexter usually voted as a Dartmouth Councillor?

Regarding the story in question about Minister Bill Estabrooks and the decision being imminent
Infrastructure Minister Bill Estabrooks suggested Thursday that he’s made up his mind about whether a proposed convention centre in downtown Halifax deserves government funding.

"I had real opportunity to look at a lot of the specifics," Estabrooks said. "It’s been quite a positive learning experience for me. There’s a couple more weeks of to-and-fro I have with my staff. I have meetings scheduled each week with them."

But he’ll wait until later this month to share his opinion publicly, he said.

"It’s imminent for sure; the decision is not far away."

Estabrooks said he wants to discuss the matter with Premier Darrell Dexter first.

If the decision is to abandon the convention centre then I would think that the NDP would just come out and say that they have decided to abandon it, instead of waiting a month and having a couple of more weeks of to-and-fro with his (Estabrooks) staff. I can't see how they could spend this much time examining it and then decide it would be best not to support it. Halifax and Nova Scotia do quite well at tourism, so how could that be a logical decision after so much thought?

Hopefully they haven't been swayed by The Save the View arguments. If they have, then Nova Scotia is in serious trouble.

[Phalanx]

Just to try and mitigate some of the doom and gloom predictions... Even if the trade centre proposal doesn't go through, didn't Rank already have a Plan B for the site? Wasn't that mentioned in the thread somewhere back in the previous 60+ pages? In fact, wasn't the trade centre Plan B and the original idea was several mixed residential/commercial buildings? I honestly can't remember if that was something Rank said or just something someone on the forum proposed (or both... or neither).

Yes, a new trade centre is needed, and this will be an unnecessary delay and a missed opportunity if it doesn't go ahead, but it doesn't mean that there's going to be a hole in the downtown.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Well, the midtown proposal didn't happen, and given the amount of construction going on, I don't know if the start up would be feasible for anything on the site without the government money. A new concept for the property wouldn't happen for awhile and would need to be presold if there is a residential component.

I think it could go either way from what we've heard, but I agree, it will likely be more of a financial situation if it doesn't happen than the influence of the anti-development crowd.

I think the federal funds are the kicker... with Rank handling the proposal and if the HRM money is there, I doubt any provincial politician would

If Bill Estabrooks was against it happening, I doubt he would say its been a "positive learning experience". I get from this statement that he learned about how much opportunity trade shows and conventions of a larger scale are for a city like Halifax that has great tourist infrastructure already in place.

If we bring in even a couple big shows a year, it would be huge for the hotel/restuarant buisness. Wtih federal funding, you just might end up paying for our convention centre halifaxboyns, you and all the people in Alberta and every other province. ;)

Its not that much money for Nova Scotians when you really think about it.

[Empire]

One would wonder why the NDP would reject this project since they are, after all, the "party of Halifax". Halifax is their base of operations. If the NDP alienates Halifax, they would be shooting themselves in the foot wouldn't they?

Unless that is, the NDP's core demographic (that they want to protect) is the "Heritage Trust, Save the View, Friends of the Commons" group of leftist wingnuts.

At least you guys will have a chance to see exactly who it is that the NDP regime of Darryl Dexter is really pandering to! :hell:

I think the NDP is in a difficult position here. If they support it there is still a possibility that the Feds might back out. If that happens, it will be clear it is an anti NDP move by the Feds. This is what happened with the four-plex.

[worldlyhaligonian]

If the feds pulled out of this one it would be a shitstorm... how many things like this do the feds support in other cities?

Anyway, the NDP could always blame the federal conservatives.

[spaustin]

My bet is the province will opt to contribute. The municipality is on board, the feds have offered money so it would be entirely the province's fault if it didn't happen. Plus, as Monctonrad points out, the NDP's base of support is in the Halifax area. The Save the View people are no doubt vocal NDP supporters, but they aren't the reason the NDP is in power and the NDP no doubt knows it.

All that said, I still find myself with mixed feelings about this project. I don't like the design and I don't like the location and I think we've really lost out on a chance to do something with government money that wouldn't have otherwise happened. For example, we could have torn down the Cogswell and had a waterfront convention centre instead of a bunker (the convention space is going to be underground, what kind of competitive venue is that?). Instead, we have government money going to kickstart development of blocks that would be redeveloped anyway. Rank had a Plan A before the convention centre came up, and I think Plan A would have been better for the location. As SDM pointed out earlier, the recession has taken the bottom out of the Downtown office market so when this gets built, it will have quite an impact on other projects, existing office building and the vacancy rate.... Not that that's such a bad thing. The notion of an all-office CBD is so 1960s and at this point should be passe. Downtown is never going to beat Bayers Lake or Burnside for certain types of office so we shoud just give up on that and be content that Downtown will always draw the prestigous Class A clients (banks, insurance etc). What Downtown really needs is more residents. If Nova Centre goes through, I hope that some projects, like the Roy, will switch to residential.

All and all, I'm fairly indifferent. If this doesn't make the cut, so be it.

[fenwick16]

Although, I agree with everything that you have stated, it seems too late in the game to change at this point.

I would have preferred a convention centre with significantly more space which could have been a stand alone building (without a hotel) somewhat similar to the Niagara Convention Centre that is being built for $93 million - http://www.fallsconventions.com/ . It wouldn't be an iconic type building like the Vancouver Convention Centre but it would have been very functional. I like the Nova Centre proposal, but to have a larger structure it would have been necessary to build it elsewhere - such as at the Cogswell Interchange.

I am worried that the square footage of the Nova Convention Centre will not meet the future needs of Halifax. I really think that Halifax can do very well in the convention business.

[someone123]

To me the Nova Centre feels a bit lazy on the part of those planning for a new convention centre. Obviously the developers are fine with it but it is a very marginal site that is only attractive because it is already prepared.

As I've said my worry with this is that we will get an equivocal answer, the project will be delayed indefinitely, and the two blocks will sit empty.

If it does move forward I think it will be positive for the downtown, even though it was not the best possible location and design. That is a pretty good outcome when you're talking about 3 levels of government plus the private partner and various other agencies.

[Empire]

Vancouver, Ottawa & Niagara Falls all have, or are building convention centres that take advantage of views. Halifax has an advantage over most cities in that it has a great waterfront and is a walkable vibrant center for its size. One of the biggest advantages is great views from most downtown locations. It is unfortunate that the convention center doesn't capitalize on that. This site is what is available at the current time so there is no competition. If the convention center is built on this site I hope there is a component that does take advantage of the view. There could be a reception area for the convention center on 18th floor of the hotel with a 360 deg panoramic view of the harbour, downtown, citadel etc.

[terrynorthend]

To me the Nova Centre feels a bit lazy on the part of those planning for a new convention centre. Obviously the developers are fine with it but it is a very marginal site that is only attractive because it is already prepared.

As I've said my worry with this is that we will get an equivocal answer, the project will be delayed indefinitely, and the two blocks will sit empty.

If it does move forward I think it will be positive for the downtown, even though it was not the best possible location and design. That is a pretty good outcome when you're talking about 3 levels of government plus the private partner and various other agencies.

If it goes forward, I am still holding out hope that it will be redesigned somewhat before the plans are finalized. It is a shame that it doesn't take advantage of the waterfront views as some have said, however, I'm kind of glad a big chunk of waterfront real estate is not going to be gobbled up by a large facility that sees intermittent use and will often be closed to the general public.

[someone123]

Vancouver's new convention centre is right on the waterfront. It is of course semi-private but still maintains a public path between the building and the water. It has a green roof not open to the public but one could imagine turning that into a bit public space with a bit of a redesign.

Unfortunately the design of the Nova Centre is hampered a bit by viewplanes. With the massive Argyle Street tower design they've also blocked off views from the roof - it's not hard to imagine a patio up there. Retail or restaurant spaces with patios along Argyle would also be desirable. Alternatively, they could create some kind of concourse area linking up with Grafton and the convention centre space that can open completely up on nice days.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Vancouver's new convention centre is right on the waterfront. It is of course semi-private but still maintains a public path between the building and the water. It has a green roof not open to the public but one could imagine turning that into a bit public space with a bit of a redesign.

Unfortunately the design of the Nova Centre is hampered a bit by viewplanes. With the massive Argyle Street tower design they've also blocked off views from the roof - it's not hard to imagine a patio up there. Retail or restaurant spaces with patios along Argyle would also be desirable. Alternatively, they could create some kind of concourse area linking up with Grafton and the convention centre space that can open completely up on nice days.

I thought the green roof was to be open to the public?

[someone123]

Nope, it hasn't been open when I've seen it (though admittedly I haven't tried since I think last summer or so) and wikipedia seems to think it's not open to the public.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Nope, it hasn't been open when I've seen it (though admittedly I haven't tried since I think last summer or so) and wikipedia seems to think it's not open to the public.

I meant the Nova Centre... I thought I read that they podium rooftops would be open to the public?

[miesh111]

I continue to hear that they are leaning towards a "no" on this project. Insiders as well as people close to several cabinet ministers feel that there will be no provinical funding. How they will word the answer, regardless of it is a financial decision, 'save the view' decision, or some other cockamemey excuse, the decision will be no.

If they do come forward with this no decision, it should become a high priorty of the members of this forum to organize and use every fiber of our being to take this government down. If their decisions are grounded in the short term financial picture, and not in the long term economic, cultural, and contribuition to the vibrancy of this city, province and region in Canada, they have no business being our government.

There is a difference between managing the short term, and leading for the future. Decision after decision from this government have been those of a manager, and not a leader. Mr. Dexter and all members of Government, the time has come for you to lead this province into the future, follow the vision of the people, and stop using a short term financial shortfall as an excuse for turning things down.

[halifaxboyns]

It’s time to OK centre

By ROGER TAYLOR Business Columnist
Wed, Sep 8 - 7:11 AM

It’s been a long hot summer — arguably, one of the best stretches of fine warm weather many of us can remember in Nova Scotia.

But that was then. Now that most of us are back at work, the change in temperature seems to signify that it’s time to get down to business.

Before many of us went on summer vacation, there was one significant piece of unfinished business left on the public agenda — the fate of the proposed convention centre in downtown Halifax.

The proposal to include a public-private partnership to build a more up-to-date and expanded convention facility as part of a $400-million private hotel, office and retail development in the heart of the downtown has been the subject of a great deal of scrutiny. The ongoing debate has many people just wishing a decision will be made. But it is much more complicated than that.

Rank presented its final proposal to the provincial government in July. If it gives the go-ahead, the province will seek the participation of the federal government in a three-way funding arrangement with Halifax Regional Municipality to pay for the project.

Rank would build the estimated $140-million facility to the government’s specifications, and the three governments would pay for it through a long-term lease arrangement expected to last 25 years.

Not that it makes any difference when it comes to relieving the public uncertainty, but Infrastructure Minister Bill Estabrooks indicated last week that he’s already made up his mind on the matter.

He says he’ll reveal the decision later this month. Since Estabrooks insists on keeping his personal decision a secret until he bats it back and forth with his staff and then has a meeting with Premier Darrell Dexter, one may assume that Estabrooks may just as secretly change his mind.

Sounding every inch like the former teacher that he is, Estabrooks has described the convention centre decision process as "a positive learning experience" for him.

It is difficult to imagine the government would reject the convention centre plan, considering the detrimental impact such a negative decision would have on the downtown business district and the harmful message it would send to the business community.

Business groups representing the downtown and the province have come out in support of the idea. Trade Centre Ltd., the government agency that currently manages the existing World Trade and Convention Centre down the street from the proposed new location, has commissioned studies to make the case in favour of building the new facility.

On the other hand, there is a group originally created to save the view of the harbour from Citadel Hill, which is prominent in fighting the convention centre idea. The group is suggesting, among other things, that the convention business in North America is dying and a new centre would fail to provide a noticeable increase in provincial tax revenue.

By preventing the construction of the new convention centre, the Coalition to Save the View also aims to reduce the height of the highrise structures planned for the former Herald lands.

However, the former Herald property is not affected by the long-established height restriction and high density structures will be built on the site whether a convention centre is part of the project or not.

Downtown Halifax needs a shot of energy, and a development of the size and scale of Rank’s proposal will generate a positive outcome that will have lasting effects on the city for many years to come.

( rtaylor@herald.ca)

[halifaxboyns]

Just my two cents; I'm in favour of a convention centre - don't like this design. I think the convention space should be above grade and take advantage of the harbour views (where possible).

[spaustin]

Well Roger did get the one bit at the end completely wrong. With the Convention Centre, they can go taller than they otherwise could. The site was given special consideration in HRM By Design, but if the convention centre doesn't happen, the standard height limits apply.

[hfxtradesman]

Quote on quote. Joe (Rank) was told " Take your vacation now, because your going to have a busy Fall". Everybody can draw there own conclusions on what will happen. If plan "A" doesn't happen there is still two more options.Taken from a source on the inside.

[someone123]

This was to tradespeople who would be working on the project?

Doesn't this one need to go through the municipal approval process, meaning that it will take a minimum of a year or so to be approved, or possibly much more if people decide to appeal, which they almost certainly will? Presumably there is a mechanism for the province to push forward public projects but I am not sure if such an approach is commonly used.

[fenwick16]

This was to tradespeople who would be working on the project?

Doesn't this one need to go through the municipal approval process, meaning that it will take a minimum of a year or so to be approved, or possibly much more if people decide to appeal, which they almost certainly will? Presumably there is a mechanism for the province to push forward public projects but I am not sure if such an approach is commonly used.

This statement is included in the Downtown Halifax Land use By-Law and Design Manual (which resulted from the HRM by Design process) on page 20 - (page 27 of 141 of the pdf file):

(source: http://www.halifax.ca/capitaldistrict/documents/DHLUBandDesignManual.pdf )
(15A) Notwithstanding any provision of this By-law except subsections (14) through (17) of section 8, a publically-sponsored convention centre together with retail, hotel, residential or office, and underground parking space, may be developed on the two blocks bounded by Argyle Street, Prince Street, Market Street and Sackville Street in accordance with the drawings attached as Appendix "B" to this By-law. For the purposes of this subsection, “publically-sponsored convention centre” means an establishment funded or otherwise financially supported by any or all levels of government which is used for the holding of conventions, seminars, workshops, trade shows, meetings or similar activities, and which may include dining and lodging facilities for the use of the participants as well as other compatible accessory facilities.

(15B) In addition to the requirements of subsection (15A), the requirements of subsection (6) of section 5 shall apply. The Development Officer shall refer the application for site plan approval to the Design Review Committee for their approval of the proposal's qualitative elements as set out in section 1.1 b. of the Design Manual.

To me, this sounds like a development agreement. It just needs to be approved by the Design Review Committee. If approved though then I think it could still be appealed (?), but maybe the process will be sped up for this project.

[sdm]

Downtown shuffle
The demand for downtown office space has collapsed, but the province is considering subsidizing construction of a huge new office tower.
by Tim Bousquet

Last week, infrastructure minister Bill Estabrooks told the Chronicle-Herald that he'll announce a decision about provincial funding for the proposed convention centre in downtown Halifax later this month.

I'm guessing from the tenor of his public pronouncements so far that, despite a provincial budget shortfall that will soon loom to perhaps a half-billion dollars, Estabrooks will announce over $100 million in government financial support for the convention centre project. Such is the power of the unelected, but well-paid Trade Centre Limited lobby that manages and feeds off the unprofitable convention biz.

Regardless, we should hope that a real business case, as opposed to the sideshow house of mirrors that has been used to hype a new convention centre, will accompany Estabrooks' announcement.

Consider the issue of office space. The convention centre complex will consist of the publicly owned convention centre in the basement, then two privately owned towers above---one is a 500-room hotel, the other office space. How much office space will be in the complex? We aren't being told yet. But Joe Ramia, the private developer, told me earlier this year that he has "verbal commitments" for leasing 75 percent of the building. "These are big, international companies," he said. "We're talking 100-, 200-, 300,000 square feet each."

I don't find that claim credible. Last week the downtown office vacancy rate went over 10 percent. There are empty spaces in most downtown towers. Ben McCrea has suspended work on the relatively small (100,000 square feet) Waterside Centre for lack of tenants---but when McCrea presented his case before Halifax council last year, he explicitly made claims similar to Ramia's ---that he had the building entirely rented, et cetera. Worst for the downtown real estate market, the future looks even more bleak: Emera is moving out of Duke Tower and over to its new waterfront headquarters, meaning another 125,000 square feet of empty space. Louis Reznick has changed his plans for the Roy Building rebuild, switching from the original office building to residential. The Empire Corporation has had approval to build a 600,000 square foot office building on Barrington Street since 1978; in 2008 the company announced work would soon begin on a building half that size, but those plans have gone the way of trillions of dollars in American mortgages.

So how is it Ramia can throw up an office tower and have it leased out? Well, the only thing that makes sense is that the Trade Centre Limited offices---118,000 square feet---will move from its existing building over to the new building. That's reasonable, of course---you'd want the convention centre offices close to the convention centre. Otherwise, Ramia's "verbal commitments" likely amount to still more reshuffling; that is, he'll poach existing downtown offices into his shiny new building, courtesy of a taxpayer subsidy.

When TCL offices move into the new building, what happens to the existing TCL building? One rumour is that city offices in Duke Tower will be moved over to the TCL building, leaving Duke Tower pretty much completely empty. But the city only rents 50,000 square feet in Duke Tower, and the lease doesn't expire until 2021. So unless the lease is broken, or the new convention centre won't be completed for another decade, it still begs the question: what happens to the existing TCL building?

I put that question to Suzanne Fougere, who speaks for TCL. "It is too soon to know the specifics of future operations should a new facility proceed," she replies. Well, I'm sure Fougere's merely relating what she's been told by TCL execs, but how is it possible to assemble a business plan for the new convention centre without also figuring out what to do with the existing office tower?

If the future of the existing TCL building isn't incorporated into the business plan for a new convention centre, then we can simply laugh the proposal off the stage and move onto some substantial issue where we can have a productive and informed debate.

The point is that a new convention centre, being sold as the salvation of downtown Halifax, may actually pull the rug out from under the market, making the situation downtown even worse than it is now.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Downtown shuffle
The demand for downtown office space has collapsed, but the province is considering subsidizing construction of a huge new office tower.
by Tim Bousquet

Last week, infrastructure minister Bill Estabrooks told the Chronicle-Herald that he'll announce a decision about provincial funding for the proposed convention centre in downtown Halifax later this month.

I'm guessing from the tenor of his public pronouncements so far that, despite a provincial budget shortfall that will soon loom to perhaps a half-billion dollars, Estabrooks will announce over $100 million in government financial support for the convention centre project. Such is the power of the unelected, but well-paid Trade Centre Limited lobby that manages and feeds off the unprofitable convention biz.

Regardless, we should hope that a real business case, as opposed to the sideshow house of mirrors that has been used to hype a new convention centre, will accompany Estabrooks' announcement.

Consider the issue of office space. The convention centre complex will consist of the publicly owned convention centre in the basement, then two privately owned towers above---one is a 500-room hotel, the other office space. How much office space will be in the complex? We aren't being told yet. But Joe Ramia, the private developer, told me earlier this year that he has "verbal commitments" for leasing 75 percent of the building. "These are big, international companies," he said. "We're talking 100-, 200-, 300,000 square feet each."

I don't find that claim credible. Last week the downtown office vacancy rate went over 10 percent. There are empty spaces in most downtown towers. Ben McCrea has suspended work on the relatively small (100,000 square feet) Waterside Centre for lack of tenants---but when McCrea presented his case before Halifax council last year, he explicitly made claims similar to Ramia's ---that he had the building entirely rented, et cetera. Worst for the downtown real estate market, the future looks even more bleak: Emera is moving out of Duke Tower and over to its new waterfront headquarters, meaning another 125,000 square feet of empty space. Louis Reznick has changed his plans for the Roy Building rebuild, switching from the original office building to residential. The Empire Corporation has had approval to build a 600,000 square foot office building on Barrington Street since 1978; in 2008 the company announced work would soon begin on a building half that size, but those plans have gone the way of trillions of dollars in American mortgages.

So how is it Ramia can throw up an office tower and have it leased out? Well, the only thing that makes sense is that the Trade Centre Limited offices---118,000 square feet---will move from its existing building over to the new building. That's reasonable, of course---you'd want the convention centre offices close to the convention centre. Otherwise, Ramia's "verbal commitments" likely amount to still more reshuffling; that is, he'll poach existing downtown offices into his shiny new building, courtesy of a taxpayer subsidy.

When TCL offices move into the new building, what happens to the existing TCL building? One rumour is that city offices in Duke Tower will be moved over to the TCL building, leaving Duke Tower pretty much completely empty. But the city only rents 50,000 square feet in Duke Tower, and the lease doesn't expire until 2021. So unless the lease is broken, or the new convention centre won't be completed for another decade, it still begs the question: what happens to the existing TCL building?

I put that question to Suzanne Fougere, who speaks for TCL. "It is too soon to know the specifics of future operations should a new facility proceed," she replies. Well, I'm sure Fougere's merely relating what she's been told by TCL execs, but how is it possible to assemble a business plan for the new convention centre without also figuring out what to do with the existing office tower?

If the future of the existing TCL building isn't incorporated into the business plan for a new convention centre, then we can simply laugh the proposal off the stage and move onto some substantial issue where we can have a productive and informed debate.

The point is that a new convention centre, being sold as the salvation of downtown Halifax, may actually pull the rug out from under the market, making the situation downtown even worse than it is now.

I think there is lack of truth in how this is being presented.

We have so much time for the federal money to come in... this article paints the shortfall inappropriately, as the total number isn't coming from the province as we are lead to believe by the writing.

Additionally, it doesn't suprise me that low quality office space is empty in Halifax... but the amount of residential being added downtown right now is supirising. It is doubtful that all of these new residents are going to work out in business parks...

If Joe is in fact brining in some international companies, then this information is not tied to the current situation. It is presented that companies coming in is surely an impossibility. Joe's last name is "Ramia"... I don't think it is rediculous to think that he could get a mix of Canadian and international expansions or relocations within the city to fill what isn't a massive tower.

Maybe Mr. McCrae isn't as skilled at pre-leasing and isn't talking to enough internationals. Halifax has got to be a logical expansion point for a number of companies that have rebouned from the recession in their own region.

Anyway, I can't stress enough how viable the development is if federal funding comes through.

Maybe some of Scotia Square floors on each tower should be converted to residential... the mall downstairs would come back to life.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Also, I thought everybody was aware that TCL's offices are moving into the Nova Centre and that HRM Council offices were moving into the old convention centre?

[someone123]

Bousquet's article is a little light on facts and heavy on extrapolation with a very negative bent, as usual.

First, it is a little dishonest to simply call this "government subsidized" office space. The government is paying for the convention centre component of the development.

Negative absorption is not good for the downtown but it is also not an established long-term pattern; this is something that has been happening for the last few months, and 10% vacancy right now is actually relatively low.

In some cities like Calgary construction is moving forward with vacancies in the 15-20% range. This is also normal in US cities, as is "poaching" - it is a good thing for companies to move around in the downtown, out of old buildings and into new ones. The older buildings gradually move downmarket (Duke Tower is 40 years old) and become available for other types of businesses. For example, another software company recently moved into one of the Scotia Square towers. This is the kind of business that could locate in the suburbs but might choose cheap space downtown. The idea that there has to be 0% vacancy and brand new companies pre-leasing buildings before there should be construction is a real stretch.

I am not surprised that the Roy Building switched to residential because there were about half a dozen office proposals that came right around the time of the economic downturn. Obviously those were not all going to be built since they represented 1 million+ square feet of new office space. I am also totally fine with the idea of more residential downtown.

I think overall there is a very negative attitude in Halifax toward new development. There is a pervasive idea that you need to have an absolutely perfect situation (pre-leased, no new traffic, everybody happen with views and so on) before anything should be done, and the result is less growth and less economic activity than other places. If you look at many, many developments in other cities they were not immediately perfect successes and many of them involved government subsidy. Years later, they have proven to be valuable assets and are profitable.

[fenwick16]

Rank Inc. is taking the risk by going ahead with this project in downtown Halifax. Will Tim Bousquet be happy once downtown Halifax is a deserted slum? Tim Bourquet is simply too anti-everything (in my opinion) and I find his stories to be misleading and depressing. I stopping reading The Coast several months ago.

The following comments immediately strike me as being non-credible:
I don't find that claim credible. Last week the downtown office vacancy rate went over 10 percent. There are empty spaces in most downtown towers. Ben McCrea has suspended work on the relatively small (100,000 square feet) Waterside Centre for lack of tenants---but when McCrea presented his case before Halifax council last year, he explicitly made claims similar to Ramia's ---that he had the building entirely rented, et cetera. Worst for the downtown real estate market, the future looks even more bleak: Emera is moving out of Duke Tower and over to its new waterfront headquarters, meaning another 125,000 square feet of empty space. Louis Reznick has changed his plans for the Roy Building rebuild, switching from the original office building to residential. The Empire Corporation has had approval to build a 600,000 square foot office building on Barrington Street since 1978; in 2008 the company announced work would soon begin on a building half that size, but those plans have gone the way of trillions of dollars in American mortgages.


How can he describe converting an eyesore on the Halifax waterfront to a sleek, modern, office building as a sign that "the future looks even more bleak". I understand that he is stating that 125,000 square feet is being vacated but in many cities having new construction is considered to be a sign of prosperity not doom and gloom.

To me and others, converting the Roy building to residential is a positive move for downtown Halifax. If Rank Inc. can't find enough tenants for the office tower component then why not convert the 14 storey office tower to an equivalent height 18 - 19 storey residential condo tower of equal design quality to The Trillium?

[worldlyhaligonian]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/striderv/4979191525/sizes/l/in/photostream/

The above link shows how rediculous heritage/stv folks are... I don't think we are losing any structures of value or views. Unless they love looking at the oil refiinery.

[halifaxboyns]

I have to agree with Someone123; the 8th Avenue office tower here in Calgary STILL has no space leased and should be finished in about a year (around the same time as the bow). The bow (from what I'm hearing) is 75% leased but will open up office space in their old building. Jamieson Place is starting to fill up slowly; but its happening - so I don't think it's bad that this get built and more office is added. If the space is cheap, more people will move offices downtown. There will never be a situation where HRM is 0% office vacancy - that would and will never happen.

I wasn't aware that the Roy building had converted to residential - but I think this is great news. An iconic building like that deserves a new life and I've been troubled by the fact so much of the proposals downtown have been office, because there aren't many spots for residential of high density left that aren't already in the system under an existing application or that could come available. When the developer for the Discovery Centre site started thinking residential I kept thinking, great and if the Roy building switched, you'd have two centrally located apartment blocks! Perfect! My only suggestion is that if the Roy does go residential - add balconies. I love my balcony and can't live without it. :)

As to Tim's view - if Roy goes residential and then so does the discovery centre - this could actually be a very positive thing for downtown. Trillium added about 90 new dwelling units to the Spring Garden Road area - based on the Peninsula's LUB - a 1 bedroom is typically 2 ppl/habitable room (what a weird way to calculate density); 2 bedroom is 3 ppl/hr and a 3 bedroom as much as 4ppl/hr. If the Roy Building and Discovery Centre add roughly the same number of units each (90 to 100; around 200 total); you could easily see in the range of 200 to as much as 500 people living there. More people for the businesses downtown - so how is that a bad thing? I don't get Tim's logic sometimes...

[worldlyhaligonian]

As to Tim's view - if Roy goes residential and then so does the discovery centre - this could actually be a very positive thing for downtown. Trillium added about 90 new dwelling units to the Spring Garden Road area - based on the Peninsula's LUB - a 1 bedroom is typically 2 ppl/habitable room (what a weird way to calculate density); 2 bedroom is 3 ppl/hr and a 3 bedroom as much as 4ppl/hr. If the Roy Building and Discovery Centre add roughly the same number of units each (90 to 100; around 200 total); you could easily see in the range of 200 to as much as 500 people living there. More people for the businesses downtown - so how is that a bad thing? I don't get Tim's logic sometimes...

lol, you've just entered the matrix.


just kidding, but you now understand how this stuff is being presented to the reader in halifax who isn't as enlightened as you.

Downtown residential is presented here as assumed to be negative... even though it is clearly vital for the revitalization of areas where readers of this stuff come from. This is where you know that they are against development and change in halifax. Its tied to the "sustainability" argument, that downtown can't support all of this development... even though its not the same situation as when past developments flooded the market with office space. People need to live downtown, and its part of the reason we've seen streets like Barrington die. Although many companies on Barrington were also victims of their own industries, revitalization will happen with renovated buildings and new businesses.

This article makes the assumption that housing isn't a continuously growing phenomenon in cities with non-Detriot situations. Well in Halifax, we are actually hurting our downtown because we are constantly building farther and farther away. Tim doesn't take into account that maybe if we built all this residential that the Nova Centre would be much more likely given the shift in where people will live and go to work.

Thus, the article was really underlying obstructism mystified in assumed thruths.

[fenwick16]

I have been using Google Street View and Halifax has a very interesting downtown. I have modeled a few Halifax area buildings over the past few days using Google SketchUp (Sir Charles Tupper Building, Summer Gardens Tower and Metro Parking lot - a poor attempt). The thing that really strikes me is that Halifax has a very interesting downtown which is made up of interesting newer towers and older buildings. It is very compact which gives it a bigger city feel than it would have otherwise.

To make a long point short - I hope that these various proposals will go ahead and that more residential buildings will be built in downtown Halifax. This will keep the downtown as a vibrant area. My viewpoint - pack more buildings in downtown Halifax since it makes for a very impressive downtown core.

[beyeas]

lol, you've just entered the matrix.


just kidding, but you now understand how this stuff is being presented to the reader in halifax who isn't as enlightened as you.

Downtown residential is presented here as assumed to be negative... even though it is clearly vital for the revitalization of areas where readers of this stuff come from. This is where you know that they are against development and change in halifax. Its tied to the "sustainability" argument, that downtown can't support all of this development... even though its not the same situation as when past developments flooded the market with office space. People need to live downtown, and its part of the reason we've seen streets like Barrington die. Although many companies on Barrington were also victims of their own industries, revitalization will happen with renovated buildings and new businesses.

This article makes the assumption that housing isn't a continuously growing phenomenon in cities with non-Detriot situations. Well in Halifax, we are actually hurting our downtown because we are constantly building farther and farther away. Tim doesn't take into account that maybe if we built all this residential that the Nova Centre would be much more likely given the shift in where people will live and go to work.

Thus, the article was really underlying obstructism mystified in assumed thruths.

VERY well said, and exactly what I was thinking when I read his article.

It BOGGLES MY F'ING MIND that he purports to be "green", and actively pursues an agenda that minimizes density in the central core. W. T. F???

[someone123]

He's more anti-business than green. Basically, if you're not poor, you're a member of the "elite" to be viewed with suspicion. Development and construction are evil because they make money for elites somewhere.

If you want a depressing read, go here: http://www.thecoast.ca/halifax/we-are-poor/Content?oid=1789108

The editorial is entitled "We Are Poor" and is about how futile it is for NS to try to maintain a real economy.

The Coast was kind of similar 5-10 years ago (Bruce Wark editorials and so on) but I don't remember it being that shrill and negative. It seems like even Tim Bousquet has personally gone farther and farther into left field recently.

[beyeas]

He's more anti-business than green.

True... but he purports to be green so that he can wrap it up in a nicer package and make it seem trendy.

I had at least some amount of respect for Wark (even if I didn't always agree with him), but none for Bousquet. The worst part is that it has permeated the whole paper. It would be one thing if his personal viewpoint were limited to his own pieces, since he is entitled to his opinion. But the paper reads these days as if there is one and only one opinion that is valid.

It used to be that I enjoyed the Coast of a source of multiple alternative viewpoints, as a counter-point to the CH. Instead it now has turned "alternative" into a single opposing viewpoint with that viewpoint mandated from above. At that point it is no better than the CH, and no more interesting to read.

I get no feeling at all that a dissenting view to Bousquet would be tolerated or published, which is sad.

[halifaxboyns]

What continues to allow Tim to voice these opinions is that very few; if anyone challenges them.

We have an editorial writer out here in Calgary called Rick Bell. His articles give me the shivers and whenever I see him I just get disgusted. He twists everything to be sensationalism.

Some of the stuff he posted about the Plan It Calgary exercise sent me through the roof and yet he still thinks I want to talk to him if I'm at city council - yeah I'd rather die (which is what I'm doing at home today with this cold; but I digress).

One of things that's been happening more and more here lately is that administration is writing letters of response and they aren't hiding their names. Mac Logan, head of transportation took a good swipe at Rick recently, Mary Axworthy who is the head of the Policy Planning Section has too and I believe our GM David Watson has as well. This is a great time for people in planning (managers I'd say) tack a few minutes and write a well written response and tack a good swipe at time and come out fighting.

[Keith P.]

I think he is suffering from a case of clinical depression. He is always dark and pessimistic even outside of his Coast articles.

[worldlyhaligonian]

VERY well said, and exactly what I was thinking when I read his article.

It BOGGLES MY F'ING MIND that he purports to be "green", and actively pursues an agenda that minimizes density in the central core. W. T. F???

I KNOW! The worst part is alot of the hippie kids and "green" folks take this stuff as fact!

Its bizarre how the heritage nuts have used this to their advantage because there is some overlap between their circles.

And the whole "anti-business" concept is rediculous. Good business and regulation are the keys to prosperity. Supposed developing nations are kicking ass and they aren't sitting on their hands when it comes to development, even if some of the tactics aren't democratic. We are losing out if we don't build this trade centre.

[halifaxboyns]

I KNOW! The worst part is alot of the hippie kids and "green" folks take this stuff as fact!

Its bizarre how the heritage nuts have used this to their advantage because there is some overlap between their circles.

And the whole "anti-business" concept is rediculous. Good business and regulation are the keys to prosperity. Supposed developing nations are kicking ass and they aren't sitting on their hands when it comes to development, even if some of the tactics aren't democratic. We are losing out if we don't build this trade centre.

It may have gotten them an advantage for now - but I'm getting a sense that the tide seems to be changing. Yes; unfortunately the economic tide was bad for Waterside and Twisted Sisters is waiting the market return as well - but some seriously different and modern buildings have been approved in downtown.

I really get an impression that more and more; commerce/developers and just citizens (as a whole) are getting fed up with Halifax being locked into this 'small town' mentality. I've said it before and I'd be more than happy to say it to a room for Tim/HT-esk people: Unless you are going to sit at every entry point to HRM and turn them around; you cannot stop people from moving to HRM. More and more people are hearing great things about HRM, visiting and deciding to move there. Hell; I have coworkers come to me all the time about Halifax asking me places to stay and what to visit. Last year; 3 people asked me those questions, this year - 8. Despite what they think; Halifax's reputation is growing and improving and it's causing more attention from business too.

Nova Centre (in whatever form it takes) will kick up that attention even move. It will put the city on the next level of conventions; it will also say to business we're open and ready. What people in HRM need to realize (as much as the HT people don't want to accept it) is that HRM is moving from a small city to a nice growing mid-size city. This attracts more business (usually - not less); more people; more service in terms of transportation (flights, perhaps rail?) and more tourism...more everything. There desperately needs to be a realization that not all development is bad and it IS part of the economic development of the region.

[someone123]

To some degree there are always flaky people against everything. They exist here in Vancouver, in Manhattan, etc.

I do think though, as I've mentioned before, that Halifax is getting a little better because it's bigger and more connected to the rest of the world. People are also getting more accustomed to change and growth, whether they know it or not.

[halifaxboyns]

Dexter government close to decision on new convention centre

By DAVID JACKSON Provincial Reporter
Thu, Sep 23 - 4:20 PM

The Dexter government’s decision on a new convention centre for downtown Halifax may or may not come by next week.

Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal Minister Bill Estabrooks has his mind made up, and expected a cabinet decision by the end of the month.

He said today that he’s not sure that will happen.

“Whether we’re able as cabinet and a government to meet that deadline or not is yet to be determined,” Estabrooks said after a cabinet meeting.

He said he is still collecting opinions on the project, which would occupy the old Chronicle Herald space on Argyle Street in Halifax.

The NDP caucus heard a presentation about the proposal on Wednesday, and cabinet looked at it Thursday.

Estabrooks said he wants to get more information on the project out to the public, but wasn’t clear how that would happen, or whether it would come before or after government’s decision.

He said there could be open houses with some of his advisers, but he doesn’t know when.

Premier Darrell Dexter said the government is doing its analysis, and must be satisfied with all the data.

“Whether it is this week, or next week, or a month from now, it will be a well-considered decision,” Dexter said.

Dexter said the public would expect due diligence on a project that could be in the $500-million range.

The publicly funded convention centre portion is expected to be a third of that or less, but the entire proposal from developer Rank Inc. includes a privately-funded hotel and office space.

[Jstaleness]

For now we are stuck with this. Photo by me taken from the 6th floor of 1718 Argyle St.
http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/uu360/jstaleness/IMG00238.jpg

[halifaxboyns]

We should take that and send it out as a Christmas Card from the Heritage trust lol.

[fenwick16]

I hope this won't become a new Halifax iconic image - a hole in the ground. (it's not how I feel about Halifax)

[DigitalNinja]

Someone should e-mail him this link about the convention center.

[worldlyhaligonian]

The suspense is killing me... I can't read this NDP government.

I think we would definitely get the federal funding given the nature of the proposal compared to others.

Does our government realize that if we don't seize this opportunity, another municipality will... and it may be for projects that don't even meet the criteria. We cannot be idle!!!

Our municipal leaders need to view every other city as a competitor... so far we are losing to Moncton this week. WTF?

This article is an interesting read.

Strings entangle stadium funding

A proposed new stadium to house the Saskatchewan Roughriders could end up in private sector hands as a condition of the provincial government's application for financial assistance from Ottawa, Saskatchewan Party cabinet minister Ken Cheveldayoff said Tuesday.

The government has applied to the federal government's P3 Canada Fund for up to 25 per cent of the funding for a proposed $431-million retractable roof stadium in Regina.

That fund is intended to provide funding for public private partnership (P3) or alternative financing and procurement (AFP) projects.

The "minimum requirements" to access funding is that the private sector must either design or build the project. The private sector must also either finance or maintain and operate the facility.

Cheveldayoff said all aspects of the project -- including ownership -- are on the table.

"Conceptually we've talked to private sector groups about the design, about the build, about owning it, about financing it and about operating it and we've had positive response from the private sector in each of those areas," said Cheveldayoff, who has been tasked by Premier Brad Wall to shepherd the stadium project.

"If somebody came in and said they wanted to own it and operate it, that's something we would look at very favourably but it remains to be seen," he added, noting it would also be possible that a company could take a smaller equity stake in a new facility.

The current home of the community-owned Roughriders, Mosaic Stadium, is owned and operated by the City of Regina.

Mayor Pat Fiacco is on holidays and was not available for comment.

The provincial government has made federal funding a prerequisite for a new stadium to get the go-ahead.

But the issue of federal funding for facilities that house professional sports teams has erupted into a national issue in recent weeks as Quebec has pressed the Conservative government to cover 45 per cent of the cost of a new arena to return the NHL to Quebec City, with no private-sector component.

While the two projects have been linked by no less than Prime Minister Stephen Harper, they are seemingly taking different paths.

The P3 Canada Fund -- which has $1.2 billion to allocate over five years -- will only pay for a maximum of 25 per cent of direct construction costs. The criterion for funding sports facilities includes that it "excludes facilities used primarily by professional athletes."

Cheveldayoff said the stadium proposal shows the Roughriders' potential usage of the facility as lesser than its use as a community recreation and entertainment facility.

One potential major stumbling block, however, is timing.

The province wants an answer from the federal government this fall, but that timeline appears very unlikely to be met through the P3 Canada Fund.

Saskatchewan applied under round two of funding, which had a June 30 deadline.

But the first round of funding through federal Crown corporation PPP Canada saw applications from 20 projects submitted in the fall of 2008. So far, only two have been allocated funding while others remain under review.

Saskatchewan's stadium proposal meanwhile remains under preliminary assessment. If it qualifies for a comprehensive assessment, PPP Canada will then ask for more information, including a business case for the project.

Cheveldayoff said the provincial government is prepared to supply whatever information is needed when it is asked, but it is still hoping for an answer this fall.

"Time is of the essence. Our feasibility study was done in March of this year and they only have a shelf life of so long, so that's why we're relying on our members of parliament and ministers to get that answer for us," he said.

Cheveldayoff also noted that while the P3 Fund appears to be a "logical fit" for Saskatchewan, the province is also looking for other potential sources of federal funding, which could make the outcome of the Quebec situation very relevant.

Cynthia Robertson, executive director of the Toronto-based Canadian Council for Public-Private Partnerships advocacy group, said that the P3 Fund is not a pork-barrel fund determined by the lobbying of politicians.

"From where I sit, absolutely not," she said in an interview.

"They are very much merit-based. I think what they'll finance will be based on the number of projects they receive and the impacts the program will have and looking at revenue sources. They have to look at all sorts of things in terms of evaluating those kinds of projects," she added.

Projects must be approved for recommendation first by a board made up of high-profile former corporate heads and civil servants. A project with a dollar figure the size of Saskatchewan's would need to be signed off on by the federal ministers of finance and transport -- and by the Treasury Board as well if it exceeded $100 million.

P3s are designed to transfer some financial risk associated with major projects from the public sector to the private sector, while also creating business opportunities.

Proponents such as Robertson say that P3s can offer the advantages of coupling private-sector innovation with more disciplined and transparent procurement and accountability systems on the private-sector partners.

But P3s have also been controversial, with opponents, such as the Canadian Union of Public Employees, arguing they are more subject to cost overrun and often leave the taxpayer on the hook for private-sector mismanagement.

CUPE Saskatchewan president Tom Graham said Tuesday he's concerned about the idea of a new Regina stadium being run as a P3.

"If we're building a stadium and the private sector wants to get involved, then they should get the money together and once they've got the lion's share of the cash they should approach government ... the other alternative is, if we want one that badly, we should pay for it and I don't know if people want to spend half a billion dollars on a football stadium or not."



Read more: http://www.leaderpost.com/sports/Strings+entangle+stadium+funding/3560354/story.html#ixzz10Ou2065W

[sdm]

there are reports in allnovascotia that Parks Canada has written a letter to the government requesting a redesign of Nova Centre.

Hopefully someone can put their hands on the letter to see if the person is creditable.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Hmm... this sounds fishy, I am now certain there must be an STV or HT person working for Parks Canada in Halifax, using their position to try and influence the process.

There was some mention in the YMCA development of a similar letter or something.

I don't think anything should be admissable at this point... its not like the developer can randomly throw in evidence now.

[fenwick16]

Parks Canada shouldn't have any say in this.

[sdm]

Parks Canada shouldn't have any say in this.

They own the lands nearby, it would be no different if you were a property owner.

That said, they have view plane protection so i am not sure what else they can get or need to have.

In the end their voice will probably be slide under the mat.

[beyeas]

there are reports in allnovascotia that Parks Canada has written a letter to the government requesting a redesign of Nova Centre.

Hopefully someone can put their hands on the letter to see if the person is creditable.

yeah I read that this morning and almost spat my coffee at the screen.
Where the hell do people get off saying that developers should not do things that are within the development rules. If developers wanted to violate the viewplanes then the HT folks would have a fit. So why the hell do they think they should be able to say that buildings that don't block the viewplans shouldn't be built. They want to have things both ways. ARG!!!!! :hell:

[halifaxboyns]

The NDP government is very hard to read - I agree with the article that WH posted.

Parks Canada can ask the developer to redesign until they are blue in the face; in the end it will be up to council to approve it. The additional bonus here is that it could fall under provincial planning powers if need be. Personally, if I were the minister of SNSMR and the decision was to move forward and a number of players started causing trouble; I'd try to do an end run around them and exempt it from the Municipal Planning process and make it approval by cabinet. But that's just me...I like to be mean sometimes. :)

[worldlyhaligonian]

The most rediculous part about all of this is that it is happening now... Parks Canada had ample time to comment on this project. This last minute stuff should not be permitted.

[halifaxboyns]

The most rediculous part about all of this is that it is happening now... Parks Canada had ample time to comment on this project. This last minute stuff should not be permitted.

It happens all the time though; trust me. I've done planning for almost 8 years now; it happens a lot.
Back before I moved to the job I'm in now and was dealing with rezoning applications; I can't count on my hands how many in a year would have last minute demands from residents or community associations. You just have to look it over and move on...

[phrenic]

http://www.thecoast.ca/RealityBites/archives/2010/09/27/first-look-at-convention-centre-costs-city-will-be-asked-to-pay-57-million

[Wishblade]

Did council really think HRM wasnt going to have to pay anything towards this? Wow....

I have to say, that article does make me a bit nervous about this.

[fenwick16]

http://www.thecoast.ca/RealityBites/archives/2010/09/27/first-look-at-convention-centre-costs-city-will-be-asked-to-pay-57-million

This stinks of politics - you have people who have been against the convention centre from the start saying that they were in favour but now consider to be too rich. One of politicians in this story has been listed on the Save the View Facebook site for months but is now pretending to have been in favour. The other sickening thing about this article is that certain politicians are now pretending to be in favour of a new stadium whereas they were completely silent over the past few months. EDITED - to be fair to Councillor Dawn Sloane she has always stated that she is in favour of a stadium.

The other puzzling thing about this article is that I keep hearing that it is a leasing arrangement - so what is the true story? Are they paying for it up front or are they leasing?

Again a politician, Howard Epstein is mixing height arguments with economics.

[beyeas]

yeah this does not bode well when 2 of the 3 levels of government are now musing about backing out.

2 questions:
1. How much was the original funding formula? I can't remember what the heck was said before for the CC part.
2. Where does Epstein get off leaking this to the Coast?! I can't imagine that this was cleared for public release. If not, I hope he gets in crap... which he won't I know. @#$%

[someone123]

Looks like another hatchet job article from Tim Bousquet. He always interviews the same handful of people who always say the same things.

I would imagine that the provincial government will not be too happy with Epstein given how Bill Estabrooks and others have declined to comment. It is very bad form.

[fenwick16]

I think Howard Epstein should elaborate on this statement.

“I think the Trade Centre Limited has played kind of a scandalous role here,” says Epstein. “They’ve put out documents that pretend to be serious studies of what the market potential is for a larger convention centre, but their studies have built into them such dubious assumptions and blue-sky optimistic assumptions. They have no credibility with me, and I hope they have no credibility with my colleagues.”

Is he an expert on convention centre economics ? There were 4 independent studies conducted, so why does he consider the Trade Centre Corp to have played a scandalous role for wanting a larger convention centre that will create jobs for Nova Scotian?

It sounds as if certain people are concerned that this might be approved and therefore are trying to encourage HRM residents to oppose it.

[Phalanx]

It may help explain why he was shut out of cabinet when everyone else who's served as long as he has was given a seat...

[midasmull]

Is he an expert on convention centre economics ?

Convention centre economics? That article has me questioning whether the man has a grasp of basic economics. "I think in fact it’s going to ruin business on Argyle Street."

How would an influx of (presumably) several hundred to one thousand+ conventioners, on top of thousands of office workers and hotel guests, to an area across the street from these businesses be bad for business? I could understand the argument about the height and design (it's his personal preference), but the fact that he's trying to lump in BS business arguments only weakens his position.

Besides, how could these towers be worse than the monolithic abandoned building that stood there prior?

[terrynorthend]

Looks like another hatchet job article from Tim Bousquet. He always interviews the same handful of people who always say the same things.



That's some rag he edits. I guess Savage Love is the only thing left worth reading in The Coast. Its a shame, I did enjoy the paper under Kyle Shaw and Bruce Wark. Still a bit leftist at times, but way more balanced.

[Keith P.]

Is he an expert on convention centre economics ?


You have to understand this about Der Kommissar Howard Epstein: he considers himself an expert on everything. At least those things he disagrees with.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Yeah, its crazy the tactics of these people and saying that TCL is to blame.

The whole development is only 150 million!!! We just built 4 rinks that contribute nothing to the city has a whole for 40 million!!

The funny thing is... they are putting out all this propaganda, but none of what they are saying is based in any kind of fact. This whole round-about lying is stupid... I would have a bit of respect for them if they were honest.

Its undemocratic what the anti-development people are doing.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Yeah, and where did the sudden interest in a stadium come from???

Stop lying to us and making excuses... let your honest opinion be known, you don't want this built because its tall. Period.

[fenwick16]

Do they even consider that this could create several hundreds of person years of work between the construction jobs and full time employment jobs over 25 years.

I guess preventing tall buildings from being built is more important to them then people eating and paying their mortgages. The ones against this must live a charmed life whereby they can throw away so many jobs. The annoying thing about all of this obstructionism is that the majority of people in the HRM are not against tall buildings (according to surveys).

[fenwick16]

In the allnovascotia.com, Estabrooks blasted Epstein and even stated that it is no wonder that he is not in cabinet :tup: . Allnovascotia.com is speculating that this is being made public because Epstein is concerned that he is losing the battle against the convention centre.

I certainly liked the allnovascotia story more than The Coast story. The allnovascotia.com story was unbiased - good for them to do a fair story on this situation.

[halifaxboyns]

I hate to say it; but I saw this coming. I figured the momment someone said that the caucus was talking about it - that Epstein would blurt something out. This didn't surprise me at all and as soon as he did; of course Tim wrote about it (yet again no big surprise).

This is why Epstein will never get in cabinet - because now he won't be trusted. If this isn't a reason to get the party whip after him in someway; I don't know what would be. Personally; I'd expell him from the party on the grounds of releasing information to the public that was to be discussed in confidence and that he couldn't be trusted.

This actually still leaves me believing that the party is on the fence on this one and so I can't read them. Wait and see I guess...

[beyeas]

It may help explain why he was shut out of cabinet when everyone else who's served as long as he has was given a seat...

VERY interesting that Estabrooks made the same comment, quoted in AllNS!

More interesting (if we are reading tea leaves) is that he said that it is clear Epstein felt he was losing the internal battle over this with caucus and said "If you don't win, you don't go public and cry about it". Curious comment eh?

EDIT: Oops, just noticed that Fenwick had already pointed this out!

[Jstaleness]

Do they even consider that this could create several hundreds of person years of work between the construction jobs and full time employment jobs over 25 years.

I guess preventing tall buildings from being built is more important to them then people eating and paying their mortgages. The ones against this must live a charmed life whereby they can throw away so many jobs. The annoying thing about all of this obstructionism is that the majority of people in the HRM are not against tall buildings (according to surveys).

I work in IT and I am in and out of the downtown offices everyday. I ask everyone of the people that work there about their thoughts of the projects nearby. Almost all of them are excited and pro development. The people in Purdy's are glad to see Kings Wharf. It gives them something to look at. 1801 Hollis people want the waterside tower to be built. The other day I posted that pic from 1718 Argyle showing the Nova Centre's home. They as well wanted it built even though when complete they would be staring at a glass panel. "Better than a hole in the ground".