[Halifax] Nova Centre | 65-58-58 m | 16-15-14 fl | Completed

[OldDartmouthMark]

It always has been in living memory though. Probably an improvement over the gravel parking lots that used to be on that part of Market St.

I'm in complete agreement with this, but my point was that we probably could have done better.

[OldDartmouthMark]

"Rogers Plaza," the thing that used to be a public street.

Maybe we should just start the competition for naming rights for the whole city now? No more H/\LIF/\X. Hello to Rogerstown... Eastlinkville... Upper Telusland...

Hmmm... at least it could help us deal with streets/places named after historical figures whom have done wrong...

[OldDartmouthMark]

Big improvement. I don't think many remember how bad that section was and its also the buildings on the Brunswick side that contribute to this.

There will be some streets like that in every city. The complaining never stops about the Nova Centre... most of it isn't constructive, its just to whinge (perfect use of the word).

It sounds like you classify the expression of opinions that don't align with your own as whinging.

I don't. I think that such conversations are constructive, whether I agree with the points being presented or not. It's a healthy exchange of ideas, IMHO.

:2cents:

[worldlyhaligonian]

Shockingly (or not), there's already a street named after Gloria McCluskey.

That was the joke! :cheers:

[worldlyhaligonian]

It sounds like you classify the expression of opinions that don't align with your own as whinging.

I don't. I think that such conversations are constructive, whether I agree with the points being presented or not. It's a healthy exchange of ideas, IMHO.

:2cents:

Well, I mean, its built and we've known that Market street would be the service entrance and was utterly dead (and exposed to wind) before the NC was built. I think you're the one beating a dead horse.

I think a more constructive point is how can any blank walls be addressed.

The difference of opinion is largely that those who wanted to see squat buildings on the site won't stop bringing it up.

Definition - complain persistently and in a peevish or irritating way.
"stop whingeing and get on with it!"

[OldDartmouthMark]

Well, I mean, its built and we've known that Market street would be the service entrance and was utterly dead (and exposed to wind) before the NC was built. I think you're the one beating a dead horse.

Hey, I like horses... :rolleyes:

So, now that it's (almost) built, we aren't allowed to express our thoughts about it? Sorry, I didn't know...

I think a more constructive point is how can any blank walls be addressed.

Go for it! Let us know your thoughts.

The difference of opinion is largely that those who wanted to see squat buildings on the site won't stop bringing it up.

That's not me, but I guess you didn't read my post.

Definition - complain persistently and in a peevish or irritating way.
"stop whingeing and get on with it!"

Yeah, I already looked it up (not a word commonly used around here - well, never used actually). I'm sure you didn't mean it to be insulting in any way.

Great discussion! Thanks! :haha:

[worldlyhaligonian]

Hey, I like horses... :rolleyes:

So, now that it's (almost) built, we aren't allowed to express our thoughts about it? Sorry, I didn't know...



Go for it! Let us know your thoughts.



That's not me, but I guess you didn't read my post.



Yeah, I already looked it up (not a word commonly used around here - well, never used actually). I'm sure you didn't mean it to be insulting in any way.

Great discussion! Thanks! :haha:

No worries. I suggested that screens be placed over the blank walls a few pages back. These could either be LED type and display something or more decorative.

[OldDartmouthMark]

No worries. I suggested that screens be placed over the blank walls a few pages back. These could either be LED type and display something or more decorative.

That's an interesting idea. Would be neat if the screens could have a more muted look to appear as paintings, etc., vs the typical bright and flashy LED screens.

My larger concern is that there is little to engage passers-by, like no real reason to walk there - it's just something to walk around.

[ILoveHalifax]

That's an interesting idea. Would be neat if the screens could have a more muted look to appear as paintings, etc., vs the typical bright and flashy LED screens.

My larger concern is that there is little to engage passers-by, like no real reason to walk there - it's just something to walk around.

I did go to one of the meetings back before construction and Ramia was proposing some interesting screens or art type thing along Market. I suppose they need to finish the brick work before they install the screens/art

[IanWatson]

That's an interesting idea. Would be neat if the screens could have a more muted look to appear as paintings, etc., vs the typical bright and flashy LED screens.

I've been following e-ink (the screens in e-readers) technology for a while and it's finally getting to the point where it can be used on a large scale, and also where colours are possible. I think it's pretty exciting in terms of what it could mean for things like architectural design. The San Diego airport just installed a whole bunch of them on their parking garage to use as a changeable mural.

[OldDartmouthMark]

I did go to one of the meetings back before construction and Ramia was proposing some interesting screens or art type thing along Market. I suppose they need to finish the brick work before they install the screens/art

Hey, that's good news if they are still intending to do it.

Like I said before, I'll hold off till it's finished before I decide to hate it or not (lol). I'm sure it will be a net positive for the area, and will be even better if they add some nice extras to make it more attractive.

[OldDartmouthMark]

I've been following e-ink (the screens in e-readers) technology for a while and it's finally getting to the point where it can be used on a large scale, and also where colours are possible. I think it's pretty exciting in terms of what it could mean for things like architectural design. The San Diego airport just installed a whole bunch of them on their parking garage to use as a changeable mural.

That sounds cool!

[RangerNS]

Everyone's memories and even current perspective is through rose colored glasses.

The Nova Center block of Market Street is, even with the 4 story wall of dark grey the brightest and most open of the three blocks. Between the Keg and the Prince George, and especially between Cambridge Suites and Symcor are nothing short of claustrophobic.

Sure, the NC block is less open then when it was a parking lot, but it continues to be great in comparison to the rest of Market.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Everyone's memories and even current perspective is through rose colored glasses.

The Nova Center block of Market Street is, even with the 4 story wall of dark grey the brightest and most open of the three blocks. Between the Keg and the Prince George, and especially between Cambridge Suites and Symcor are nothing short of claustrophobic.

Sure, the NC block is less open then when it was a parking lot, but it continues to be great in comparison to the rest of Market.

Respectfully, my post wasn't about memories or the past, just about a potential missed opportunity to make it better than it looks like it will be. But maybe it will be great, really really great (sorry for the Trump reference...:haha:).

I appreciate the discussion as the forum has been a little dead lately... :D

[RangerNS]

Respectfully, my post wasn't about memories or the past, just about a potential missed opportunity to make it better than it looks like it will be.

It was a reply against the general feeling.

To which, my general feeling is I don't like either the politics or location of the NC. in particular, selling off the street is neigh criminal. But it isn't a horrible building. The offices will be empty and the convention center not big enough to be better than the WTCC, but alas.

1/4 of the sides being kinda a wasteland (but better then adjacent wastelands) isn't a point to be complaining about.

[OldDartmouthMark]

It was a reply against the general feeling.

To which, my general feeling is I don't like either the politics or location of the NC. in particular, selling off the street is neigh criminal. But it isn't a horrible building. The offices will be empty and the convention center not big enough to be better than the WTCC, but alas.

1/4 of the sides being kinda a wasteland (but better then adjacent wastelands) isn't a point to be complaining about.

Understood. Great points in both posts, actually. I especially agree about the politics, location and selling off part of Grafton Street.

The dead side - we'll see. I'm expecting (hoping) that when the bank bunker (Symcor) site next to The Dillon is redeveloped, it should be a major improvement to the area and will improve the general feel of the neighborhood greatly. I don't mind the Prince George/Keg areas of Market, it's usually fairly well travelled. The Carmichael side of the Homburg building on Market used to have a restaurant/bar in it, so maybe this could be revitalized once the NC is in operation?

Maybe Market St. side of NC will be a reasonable sacrifice? :2cents:

[worldlyhaligonian]

It was a reply against the general feeling.

To which, my general feeling is I don't like either the politics or location of the NC. in particular, selling off the street is neigh criminal. But it isn't a horrible building. The offices will be empty and the convention center not big enough to be better than the WTCC, but alas.

1/4 of the sides being kinda a wasteland (but better then adjacent wastelands) isn't a point to be complaining about.

My thoughts about naming the section of the street: we have plenty of things named after commercial interests in Halifax... its literally part of the tradition of the city. Keith and Cunard are examples.

Looking at the office tower layout and the confirmed tenants, I think it will be full and maybe some of the 80s and 90s towers will be more vacant.

Time will tell. It is definitely a huge improvement over the WTCC.

Next, we need a proper stadium!

[worldlyhaligonian]

Understood. Great points in both posts, actually. I especially agree about the politics, location and selling off part of Grafton Street.

The dead side - we'll see. I'm expecting (hoping) that when the bank bunker (Symcor) site next to The Dillon is redeveloped, it should be a major improvement to the area and will improve the general feel of the neighborhood greatly. I don't mind the Prince George/Keg areas of Market, it's usually fairly well travelled. The Carmichael side of the Homburg building on Market used to have a restaurant/bar in it, so maybe this could be revitalized once the NC is in operation?

Maybe Market St. side of NC will be a reasonable sacrifice? :2cents:

The bunker needs to go!

[Ziobrop]

Keith and Cunard are examples.



err Keith was mayor of halifax for a number of years, and Cunard was one of the principles of the halifax Steamboat company which offered the first powered ferry to dartmouth, and who went on to revolutionize transatlantic travel with fixed scheduled service.

while names carry on as a Beer/Cruise line brand, both were haligonians worthy of commemoration beyond "corporate naming rights"

[worldlyhaligonian]

err Keith was mayor of halifax for a number of years, and Cunard was one of the principles of the halifax Steamboat company which offered the first powered ferry to dartmouth, and who went on to revolutionize transatlantic travel with fixed scheduled service.

while names carry on as a Beer/Cruise line brand, both were haligonians worthy of commemoration beyond "corporate naming rights"

Right, but I'm sure they aren't getting that for free and Rogers is named after Ted Rogers, a prominent Canadian. Its not that big a deal.

[yal]

Looking at the office tower layout and the confirmed tenants, I think it will be full and maybe some of the 80s and 90s towers will be more vacant.



I see this as a good thing. I think it will make downtown more attractive and affordable to start-ups and smaller companies. There is already a downward pressure in the rents in the older office buildings.

[someone123]

I see this as a good thing. I think it will make downtown more attractive and affordable to start-ups and smaller companies. There is already a downward pressure in the rents in the older office buildings.

There's also been a loss of some really old buildings like the Roy which offered space affordable enough for small businesses and nonprofits. The 70's and 80's towers will serve the same purpose in the future.

It's only really the landlords of those old towers that stand to lose from the new supply of nicer buildings, and I would guess that they have already profited over the years. They also "stole" tenants from older buildings.

[Phalanx]

Right, but I'm sure they aren't getting that for free and Rogers is named after Ted Rogers, a prominent Canadian. Its not that big a deal.

Who has no connections to Halifax and has no cultural or historical significance beyond owning a business.

Sorry, not ready to completely surrender to the corporate dystopia quite yet.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Who has no connections to Halifax and has no cultural or historical significance beyond owning a business.

Sorry, not ready to completely surrender to the corporate dystopia quite yet.

You already have: AbInbev owns the legal rights to Keith's now... as an example.

Maybe a valuable part of the conversation: Scotiabank should sponsor more in Halifax, and possibly stadium naming rights.

[pblaauw]

err Keith was mayor of halifax for a number of years, and Cunard was one of the principles of the halifax Steamboat company which offered the first powered ferry to dartmouth, and who went on to revolutionize transatlantic travel with fixed scheduled service.

while names carry on as a Beer/Cruise line brand, both were haligonians worthy of commemoration beyond "corporate naming rights"

:yeahthat:

Keith's and Cunard have connections here. Rogers, as far as I know, does not.

[Phalanx]

You already have: AbInbev owns the legal rights to Keith's now... as an example...

...How is that related? The fact that the company named for the person is now owned by a big multinational doesn't change the fact that the person was an important historical figure in the city. Don't confuse the person with the company that bears his name.

I don't really care what happens with private buildings (beyond the fact naming them all for some variation of the company name can get a bit silly), but I don't want to see a situation where branding rights for public infrastructure is sold off to the highest bidder.

[eastcoastal]

My thoughts about naming the section of the street: we have plenty of things named after commercial interests in Halifax... its literally part of the tradition of the city. Keith and Cunard are examples.
...

Keith and Cunard were prominent Haligonians. I suspect that things named after them are done so out of respect.

Rogers Plaza is named after a corporate entity that has essentially purchased a public street - something that used to belong to all of us. I think that streets and sidewalks are the MOST significant public spaces in a city, and I think it's pretty sad that they are for sale.

[mleblanc]

Keith and Cunard were prominent Haligonians. I suspect that things named after them are done so out of respect.

Rogers Plaza is named after a corporate entity that has essentially purchased a public street - something that used to belong to all of us. I think that streets and sidewalks are the MOST significant public spaces in a city, and I think it's pretty sad that they are for sale.

Agreed. Especially after being marketed as Grafton Place (https://novacentre.ca/grafton-place). :shrug:

[OldDartmouthMark]

Have to agree with the posts above - not comfortable with selling off a city street to a private concern.

I don't like the precedent that it sets, nor do I like the impression it creates of our city - that it's for sale for the right price... :2cents:

[Jonovision]

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4510/36953862553_c291355fc3_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/YiucTg)20171006_130100 (https://flic.kr/p/YiucTg) by Jonovision23 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/36229421@N02/), on Flickr

[Jonovision]

A few evening and night pics now that lights are on in the building and light standards have been installed along some of Argyle.

DHBC is planning an official opening and street party for Argyle on November 4th.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4446/37068794123_db660917f9_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/YtDg34)20171014_071941 (https://flic.kr/p/YtDg34) by Jonovision23 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/36229421@N02/), on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4464/37739519621_700cb15872_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/ZuUUmM)20171012_011208 (https://flic.kr/p/ZuUUmM) by Jonovision23 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/36229421@N02/), on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4468/37030049184_39f3c0e955_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/YqdFvS)20171012_011023 (https://flic.kr/p/YqdFvS) by Jonovision23 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/36229421@N02/), on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4469/37690902546_59598808b4_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/ZqBJcm)20171012_010933 (https://flic.kr/p/ZqBJcm) by Jonovision23 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/36229421@N02/), on Flickr

[Jonovision]

Trees have arrived for Argyle

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4447/37781573802_68fc4e631c_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/ZyCrAS)20171019_135542 (https://flic.kr/p/ZyCrAS) by Jonovision23 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/36229421@N02/), on Flickr

[Jonovision]

Grafton Street is almost done?!

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4488/37852608341_f51656168b_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/ZEUvGi)20171021_171552_HDR (https://flic.kr/p/ZEUvGi) by Jonovision23 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/36229421@N02/), on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4464/23999911858_cf788e5924_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/CyMPDL)20171021_171442 (https://flic.kr/p/CyMPDL) by Jonovision23 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/36229421@N02/), on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4509/37804125046_df89339107_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/ZAC2iq)20171022_072127 (https://flic.kr/p/ZAC2iq) by Jonovision23 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/36229421@N02/), on Flickr

[someone123]

Thanks for posting these pictures. I love the frequent updates.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4488/37852608341_f51656168b_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/ZEUvGi)
20171021_171552_HDR (https://flic.kr/p/ZEUvGi) by Jonovision23 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/36229421@N02/), on Flickr

I have a hard time reconciling a picture like this with the negative comments about the Nova Centre. I think this looks great and is an enormous improvement over what this area used to look like. And the Nova Centre isn't even done yet.

The "Argyle Street" pavers are cool too.

It makes me wish the city would properly fully overhaul SGR and Barrington in a similar way, in the case of SGR extending the style of the existing streetscape around the library along the rest of the street.

[Keith P.]

I dunno about making them 1-lane streets to mess up traffic and taking away parking. Can't imagine the businesses would appreciate that. Seems like excessive indulgence into the municipal treasury by planning theorists.

[Duff]

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4511/37937078622_0bb14d0d96_h.jpg

[miesh111]

I dunno about making them 1-lane streets to mess up traffic and taking away parking. Can't imagine the businesses would appreciate that. Seems like excessive indulgence into the municipal treasury by planning theorists.

There's actually a lot of parking downtown. Just not a lot of "free" parking downtown. Also, Nova Centre actually will add a couple hundred parking stalls here that were not here before.

People need to stop complaining that there's no parking, when what they mean is, :tantrum: "I don't want to pay for parking".

The streets are not just for cars, they're for people too, and, quite frankly, I'll gladly hide my car underground so that I can have a more dynamic experience streetside.

[Franco401]

There's actually a lot of parking downtown. Just not a lot of "free" parking downtown. Also, Nova Centre actually will add a couple hundred parking stalls here that were not here before.

People need to stop complaining that there's no parking, when what they mean is, :tantrum: "I don't want to pay for parking".

The streets are not just for cars, they're for people too, and, quite frankly, I'll gladly hide my car underground so that I can have a more dynamic experience streetside.

I can't vouch for this particular situation, but removing a street from circulation is only going to simplify traffic, not mess it up.

[OldDartmouthMark]

There's actually a lot of parking downtown. Just not a lot of "free" parking downtown. Also, Nova Centre actually will add a couple hundred parking stalls here that were not here before.

People need to stop complaining that there's no parking, when what they mean is, :tantrum: "I don't want to pay for parking".

The streets are not just for cars, they're for people too, and, quite frankly, I'll gladly hide my car underground so that I can have a more dynamic experience streetside.

Definitely a net plus to the area. And I agree, I actually never park on downtown streets as I don't have the patience to drive around and around looking for the one free spot. Not to mention a few years back, the only time I parked on the street in years, I came back to find my car damaged. Didn't save a dime parking on the street that time.

Would much rather use my time enjoying the downtown than looking for a place to park, so I always go directly to the parkade nearest my destination and just plan to pay for it as part of the expense of the evening. If we ever have an improvement in transit that makes it more efficient and convenient, then that will be my preferred method of transportation.

I won't lie and say that the NC is my favourite part of the downtown, but certainly the streetscaping around it and the associated increased level of activity will change the vibe of the area for the better. And, as has been mentioned several times before by several posters, it is better than the empty lots that were taking up much of the landscape beforehand.

It certainly looks good in the photos!

[OldDartmouthMark]

Thanks for posting these pictures. I love the frequent updates.



I have a hard time reconciling a picture like this with the negative comments about the Nova Centre. I think this looks great and is an enormous improvement over what this area used to look like. And the Nova Centre isn't even done yet.

The "Argyle Street" pavers are cool too.

It makes me wish the city would properly fully overhaul SGR and Barrington in a similar way, in the case of SGR extending the style of the existing streetscape around the library along the rest of the street.

Agree that it looks great in the pics above. I think I've expressed my main beefs with it in previous posts, but mostly it's how - to my sense of aesthetics - it overwhelms the surrounding neighborhood, taking up two full blocks and towering over everything nearby. You get a real sense of that when you're coming down Sackville Street near the citadel. And, standing on Argyle and looking up at its massiveness...

Now, those very things may be what makes it great to some skyscraper-ites, and I'm not trying to take away from that... those are just my thoughts.

Enough horse-beating by me already. It's almost finished, there are many nice aspects of it, and it will be better than it was before. It's not going away any time soon. Overall, massiveness aside, I'm happy with its effect on the area and will be happier when it's finally finished.

Now, back to your regularly-scheduled program.... ;)

[Jonovision]

Construction has been going full tilt to get it Argyle ready for its opening on the 4th.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4501/37920197146_2d9a2da773_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/ZLSVuw)20171027_132811 (https://flic.kr/p/ZLSVuw) by Jonovision23 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/36229421@N02/), on Flickr

[worldlyhaligonian]

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4511/37937078622_0bb14d0d96_h.jpg

Insane!

[Keith P.]

There's actually a lot of parking downtown. Just not a lot of "free" parking downtown. Also, Nova Centre actually will add a couple hundred parking stalls here that were not here before.

People need to stop complaining that there's no parking, when what they mean is, :tantrum: "I don't want to pay for parking".

The streets are not just for cars, they're for people too, and, quite frankly, I'll gladly hide my car underground so that I can have a more dynamic experience streetside.

Look at that picture of Grafton. Last time I checked it was a 2-way street. How are 2 lanes of traffic supposed to pass on it now?

As for parking, the reality is that the spots that used to be on Argyle and Grafton were always very well-used. By people patronizing those businesses for the most part. Those people now will likely go elsewhere. That is reality in this town.

[IanWatson]

Look at that picture of Grafton. Last time I checked it was a 2-way street. How are 2 lanes of traffic supposed to pass on it now?


In the photo right above your post there are cars in there that show the scale. It doesn't look at all hard for two-way traffic to happen. They'll have to go slow, but that's specifically the purpose.

[Keith P.]

In the photo right above your post there are cars in there that show the scale. It doesn't look at all hard for two-way traffic to happen. They'll have to go slow, but that's specifically the purpose.

They will either be driving on the sidewalk or, when one of the large food delivery trucks stops to do its job, make it a one-way street. Not to mention the issue of snowbanks during the winter. Ridiculous.

[MonctonRad]

They will either be driving on the sidewalk or, when one of the large food delivery trucks stops to do its job, make it a one-way street. Not to mention the issue of snowbanks during the winter. Ridiculous.

It's all part of the modern urban "War on the Car" Keith, get used to it. Similar things are happening in Moncton.

[Phalanx]

It's not a 'war on the car', as much as some people would like to frame it that way. It's hyperbolic nonsense. It's a rebalancing and acknowledgement that pedestrians (and cyclist, and mass transit) are important to the vitality of a city, too, and not everything needs to revolve around car convenience.

The vast majority of transit infrastructure is still built around the car, and that's not going to change.

[Keith P.]

It's not a 'war on the car', as much as some people would like to frame it that way. It's hyperbolic nonsense. It's a rebalancing and acknowledgement that pedestrians (and cyclist, and mass transit) are important to the vitality of a city, too, and not everything needs to revolve around car convenience.

The vast majority of transit infrastructure is still built around the car, and that's not going to change.

Clearly it is a war on the car and not just this instance. The north side of this street is hardly a pedestrian-centric place yet it has a wider sidewalk than much of SGR. You also have the only entrance to the Prince George parking garage there which may become inaccessible in the instances I noted above. Lovely.

It is simply foolish pandering to a certain agenda.

That aside, why not just make it one lane, one way and be done with it?

[q12]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DNV8GI3W0AAEawx.jpg:large
Source Twitter:
https://twitter.com/tjhfx/status/924781750806630400

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DNVwNGMXUAAlHS_.jpg:large
Source Twitter:
https://twitter.com/tjhfx/status/924769415174017024

^I really like this and I also think a one way street is the way to go.

[Franco401]

Clearly it is a war on the car and not just this instance. The north side of this street is hardly a pedestrian-centric place yet it has a wider sidewalk than much of SGR. You also have the only entrance to the Prince George parking garage there which may become inaccessible in the instances I noted above. Lovely.

It is simply foolish pandering to a certain agenda.

That aside, why not just make it one lane, one way and be done with it?

What agenda? What pedestrian-friendly boogeyman are people so afraid of?

[q12]

t9mRaWb719c

[Haliguy]

Insane!

Looks great! What an improvement to what was there before.

[IanWatson]

The north side of this street is hardly a pedestrian-centric place yet it has a wider sidewalk than much of SGR.

There will be patios. You can see the line in the brick that defines the patio space.

[miesh111]

Clearly it is a war on the car and not just this instance. The north side of this street is hardly a pedestrian-centric place yet it has a wider sidewalk than much of SGR. You also have the only entrance to the Prince George parking garage there which may become inaccessible in the instances I noted above. Lovely.

It is simply foolish pandering to a certain agenda.

That aside, why not just make it one lane, one way and be done with it?

There's no pandering to any agenda. I'm as pro-development as it gets, never take transit or use the bike lanes. But giving priority to pedestrians, bicycles, buses, and such just makes plain sense. And, you can't really go that fast down these streets right now anyway. This is not a Halifax pandering solution. This is Halifax catching up to cities that have done similar things 20-30 years ago. Quebec city recognized their central area and actually closes the streets off after peek delivery time. Old Montreal does the same. All over Europe this is happening. We have recognized that business does better when people can walk around and access them in large numbers, not when one person can park right outside, run in, and leave. Most of the businesses in this area are experiential, meaning you don't stop in front for 15 minutes and pick something up, you go in, have a drink, watch a show, eat a meal, etc. and this type of streetscape caters to thousands every summer that do that. Not the few of you driving by in your cars complaining about delivery trucks and parking.

[mleblanc]

There's no pandering to any agenda. I'm as pro-development as it gets, never take transit or use the bike lanes. But giving priority to pedestrians, bicycles, buses, and such just makes plain sense. And, you can't really go that fast down these streets right now anyway. This is not a Halifax pandering solution. This is Halifax catching up to cities that have done similar things 20-30 years ago. Quebec city recognized their central area and actually closes the streets off after peek delivery time. Old Montreal does the same. All over Europe this is happening. We have recognized that business does better when people can walk around and access them in large numbers, not when one person can park right outside, run in, and leave. Most of the businesses in this area are experiential, meaning you don't stop in front for 15 minutes and pick something up, you go in, have a drink, watch a show, eat a meal, etc. and this type of streetscape caters to thousands every summer that do that. Not the few of you driving by in your cars complaining about delivery trucks and parking.

Summed up perfectly. :cheers: Most modern cities have lost the art of the plaza, and it's great they are attempting to go in the right direction. This is a great addition to the downtown core. That Planifax episode does a good job explaining the new traffic rules for the street, but I hope some better signage will pop up soon.

[someone123]

Summed up perfectly. :cheers: Most modern cities have lost the art of the plaza, and it's great they are attempting to go in the right direction. This is a great addition to the downtown core. That Planifax episode does a good job explaining the new traffic rules for the street, but I hope some better signage will pop up soon.

It would be nice to expand this area to encompass the Grand Parade and tie it in with Province House, the waterfront, and Granville Mall.

Another change that could be good would be to add more scramble intersections. The idea with them is to close the whole intersection down to pedestrians every so often instead of having pedestrians cross with vehicle traffic. I have noticed this works well even on smaller streets, and it's convenient to be able to cross diagonally. The important thing I guess is that there needs to be a significant flow of pedestrian traffic along both axes. Scrambles don't seem to have much of a net impact on vehicle traffic, perhaps partly because you can eliminate problems with turning. A lot of accidents seem to happen when cars are turning and cross pedestrian traffic.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Looks great! What an improvement to what was there before.

Its great! The Cogswell redevelopment should take some notes.

I didn't think they'd pull off the convention space as well as they have!

[OldDartmouthMark]

I see it as only increasing the functionality of the streets. There were relatively few functional parking spaces anyhow and the parked cars just used up valuable space and made it a pain to drop off or pick up passengers. Not to mention a real pain for the delivery truck drivers. Watched in amazement one day as a Sysco driver had to pull off an amazing feat to get his truck into the Prince George while avoiding the parked cars.

Not to mention the expense that business owners had to go through installing and tearing down their patios each year.

Honestly, this is probably the greatest improvement to the downtown in a long long time. :tup:

[MonctonRad]

I really have very little problem with "shared space" roadways, as long as they are located on side streets where there is relatively little vehicular traffic.

There is a similar project (occurring in three phases) in Moncton - Downing Street. This will extend from city hall on Main Street, past the Blue Cross Centre, down to Assumption Blvd and will connect directly to the riverfront park. The first phase is complete, and is similar to the project in Halifax with high quality pavers, no curbs, and a shared roadway concept. The street will be open to vehicular traffic most of the time, but can be closed easily to make a completely pedestrian space when downtown festivals occur.

[Keith P.]

I loved the shot in the propaganda video where the clueless pedestrians stepped in front of a moving Jeep and forced the driver to slam on the brakes.

[Franco401]

propaganda video

You understand that vehicles are not an oppressed population, right? You're making a fool of yourself and not addressing any of the arguments made in favour of this project. Just stop.

[Keith P.]

You understand that vehicles are not an oppressed population, right? You're making a fool of yourself and not addressing any of the arguments made in favour of this project. Just stop.

The arguments in favor are foolish. If Grafton had been made one-way northbound all of this would have been moot (aside from the elimination of street parking). By not doing so, HRM has created what will become a large problem.

[Drybrain]

Look at that picture of Grafton. Last time I checked it was a 2-way street. How are 2 lanes of traffic supposed to pass on it now?

As for parking, the reality is that the spots that used to be on Argyle and Grafton were always very well-used. By people patronizing those businesses for the most part. Those people now will likely go elsewhere. That is reality in this town.

The Nova Centre itself will have far more public parking than what's been lost on Argyle and Grafton.

I have no idea why people are so resistant to simply parking in a garage rather than on the street, but if we want a healthy downtown, we can't just kowtow to the demand for free surface/street parking. A tiny bit of social engineering has to happen. People will have to put their cars in a garage whether they like it or not.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Honestly I don't see that much traffic happening on Grafton since it's not a thoroughfare to go anywhere anymore (and hasn't been for a long time). It has been cut off on either end by the Scotiabank Centre on one end and the Nova Centre on the other, so the only cars driving there will either be dropping people off/picking them up, parking in the Prince George parkade or circling around the block (though that will even happen less now that there's no parking on the street). And the aforementioned delivery trucks, the drivers of which I'm sure will be elated that there is no more on-street parking.

I'm actually struggling very hard to try to find something negative to say about the streetscaping, except to say that it took them too long to do it.

This coming from a person (me) who really enjoys cars and driving them - take it for what it's worth. IMHO there's nothing about this project that is worth the time and effort to complain about.

[Haliguy]

The arguments in favor are foolish. If Grafton had been made one-way northbound all of this would have been moot (aside from the elimination of street parking). By not doing so, HRM has created what will become a large problem.

Don't see any follish agruments here.

This is very postive downtown. It will create much more foot traffic which makes for a much more vibrant and pleasant city. It is a win win for the businesses in the area because there will be more people walking around and people walking are much more likely to stop at shop or get a drink or eat then people in cars.

And this is coming from someone who drives all the time.

[alps]

So excited to see this in person. Looks beautiful and a massive improvement over the creaky, clunky temporary walkways that were a consequence of the dining patios.

I wish the back side of the Prince George Hotel addressed Grafton Street a bit better. I always wonder what kind of opportunity exists to retrofit a shallow shop or food outlet to blank walls like that on the corner of Grafton and Prince.

Downing Street in Moncton looks like a great improvement too. Seems to make the relationship between Main Street and the riverfront much more legible.

[teddifax]

No development should a blank wall at street level. Scotia Square was a mistake back in the 60's and it seems to still be done even today. Barrington St. is dead across from the Delta Barrington Hotel. I believe there is equipment behind that wall as the reason it can't be changed, but it is a very poor design.

[eastcoastal]

Honestly I don't see that much traffic happening on Grafton since it's not a thoroughfare to go anywhere anymore (and hasn't been for a long time). It has been cut off on either end by the Scotiabank Centre on one end and the Nova Centre on the other, so the only cars driving there will either be dropping people off/picking them up, parking in the Prince George parkade or circling around the block (though that will even happen less now that there's no parking on the street). And the aforementioned delivery trucks, the drivers of which I'm sure will be elated that there is no more on-street parking.

I'm actually struggling very hard to try to find something negative to say about the streetscaping, except to say that it took them too long to do it.

This coming from a person (me) who really enjoys cars and driving them - take it for what it's worth. IMHO there's nothing about this project that is worth the time and effort to complain about.

Also struggling hard to find negatives other than the timing/length of time. I'm still not a huge fan of the Nova Centre - I think it's the wrong scale and relationship with the street for that part of town... I think it's shameful that the public street was basically sold... BUT... I hope it's not going to kill the street vibe. I hope the businesses survive the building construction THEN streetscaping work... I feel like it's not worse than what was there before (but reserve the right to wish for better, not just newer).

I think the streetscaping is making the best of what that part of town has to offer. I look forward to it becoming part of our city.

[RoshanMcG]

Aaaand Argyle street finally has canopy lights!

https://instagram.fyaw1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/t51.2885-15/e35/23101788_718027518392458_8710025579857969152_n.jpg
Source (https://www.instagram.com/p/BbAzTjRFxHi)

[miesh111]

So excited to see this in person. Looks beautiful and a massive improvement over the creaky, clunky temporary walkways that were a consequence of the dining patios.

I wish the back side of the Prince George Hotel addressed Grafton Street a bit better. I always wonder what kind of opportunity exists to retrofit a shallow shop or food outlet to blank walls like that on the corner of Grafton and Prince.

Downing Street in Moncton looks like a great improvement too. Seems to make the relationship between Main Street and the riverfront much more legible.

The 'blank wall' that the Prince George has is actually parking stalls. With the right incentives and market conditions, these type of spaces are regularly converted to small retail in other cities. If the Argyle Grafton project brings the success everyone believes it will, if the Nova Centre retail spaces fill up, and if the hotel sees the opportunity, these parking stalls could easily be turned into another restaurant or other retail.

[Jonovision]

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4576/38085756296_111507a774_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/212vssC)20171103_072004 (https://flic.kr/p/212vssC) by Jonovision23 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/36229421@N02/), on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4543/24288434848_19a98e0d69_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/D1hzu5)20171101_105442_HDR (https://flic.kr/p/D1hzu5) by Jonovision23 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/36229421@N02/), on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4457/38140860901_6cf13ea9e8_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/217nT92)20171101_105401 (https://flic.kr/p/217nT92) by Jonovision23 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/36229421@N02/), on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4558/38140853951_ab063a8a71_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/217nR5c)20171101_105428 (https://flic.kr/p/217nR5c) by Jonovision23 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/36229421@N02/), on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4458/38085763156_265a202ba9_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/212vuuU)20171101_105424 (https://flic.kr/p/212vuuU) by Jonovision23 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/36229421@N02/), on Flickr

[mleblanc]

Front enterance looks great, can only improve once they clean all the dirt/dust off the entire building

[q12]

Europe or Halifax?

New
https://s1.postimg.org/2lhhyhddbz/DN1_Ad_GPW4_AERDXK.jpg_large.jpg
Photo edited to remove kids
Source: Twitter (https://twitter.com/kyleplans/status/926968436491784192)

Old
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DN1ML2CXcAAhqPw.jpg

[Colin May]

Looks nice. Yuppification of Argyle will drive commercial property taxes higher in 2-3 years.

[Keith P.]

Looks nice. Yuppification of Argyle will drive commercial property taxes higher in 2-3 years.

Only until access problems drive most of the businesses under.

[Franco401]

Only until access problems drive most of the businesses under.

Give it a goddamn rest. Countless examples in dozens of other cites across North America show how incredibly wrong you are on this. The idea that people will avoid Argyle at all costs just because parking is reduced and you can't zip right up the block at 60km/h has been universally rejected in planning for most of this century, and for good reason.

[mleblanc]

Give it a goddamn rest. Countless examples in dozens of other cites across North America show how incredibly wrong you are on this. The idea that people will avoid Argyle at all costs just because parking is reduced and you can't zip right up the block at 60km/h has been universally rejected in planning for most of this century, and for good reason.

Been ingoring Keith for as long as I can remember on this forum. His pessimism is cancerous for discussion. Not even sure why he posts anymore if he's never happy about anything going on.

[MonctonRad]

Been ingoring Keith for as long as I can remember on this forum. His pessimism is cancerous for discussion. Not even sure why he posts anymore if he's never happy about anything going on.

Keith does bring a dose of realism and pragmatism to the forum, but in this particular case he is dead wrong.........

[ns_kid]

I recently returned after touring a number of European cities, virtually all of which, big and small, had pedestrian and vehicle-restricted business streets, all of which were vibrant and exciting places to be: Zurich, Prague, Copenhagen, Stockholm, Gothenburg. In Oslo we were delighted to find that the five blocks between our hotel and Central Station could be walked on pedestrian streets. Zermatt, famously, prohibits private vehicles on all its streets. (Though better keep your head up: shuttles and service vehicles are everywhere.)

If there is a flaw in the Argyle Street redevelopment, in my opinion, is that it encompasses only half of the street: the remaining two blocks should have been completed at the same time. All of that said, we have a great resistance to change in this corner of the continent and acceptance will not come overnight for many people. A buddy heading to Neptune on the weekend was bemoaning the loss of parking, even though the overall number of spaces closed on the two blocks is minimal. Saturday's street party was a good start but it will take much more effort to bring people to the street and keep them there.

Copenhagen's Strøget is said to be one of the world's longest car-free streets:

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4559/37501566684_800c89be85_z.jpg

[Keith P.]

Copenhagen's Strøget is said to be one of the world's longest car-free streets:

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4559/37501566684_800c89be85_z.jpg


Yet in virtually every case where a "pedestrian mall" has been tried in Canada it has been a total failure.

[terrynorthend]

Keith does bring a dose of realism and pragmatism to the forum, but in this particular case he is dead wrong.........

I agree with MonctonRad. I often disagree with Keith, but he has interesting viewpoints that sometimes align with mine and others on this forum.

Even where I disagree, he can bring important contrarian perspectives that are held by many people in the city. I may ignore them, but I'd not dismiss them for my own peril.

[Keith P.]

Give it a goddamn rest. Countless examples in dozens of other cites across North America show how incredibly wrong you are on this. The idea that people will avoid Argyle at all costs just because parking is reduced and you can't zip right up the block at 60km/h has been universally rejected in planning for most of this century, and for good reason.

Excuse me for not toeing the line of planning dogma that seems to be the dominant accepted worldview in this forum.

Please provide evidence of the last time anyone was able to reach 60 km/h or Argyle.

Only time will tell of the strategy of making several blocks in the center of downtown largely inaccessible was sound planning theory. Hopefully the proponents of Nova Center have given considerable thought to how large numbers of taxis and limos will be able to access the entrance/exits of their building when major events are being held. Right now that does not seem to be an easy thing with this design.

[JET]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnTkWB2nl4E
We were in Dublin, and where we wanted to go would take us along Grafton Street; we were looking for a bus that went that way. What was once probably a very busy thoroughfare for vehicles is now pedestrian only. People adapt, often we have no choice but to do that

[beyeas]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnTkWB2nl4E
We were in Dublin, and where we wanted to go would take us along Grafton Street; we were looking for a bus that went that way. What was once probably a very busy thoroughfare for vehicles is now pedestrian only. People adapt, often we have no choice but to do that

I was there a month ago... loved walking down Grafton and then coming out into St. Stephen's Green. It's a great city.

[JET]

I was there a month ago... loved walking down Grafton and then coming out into St. Stephen's Green. It's a great city.

:cheers: Sláinte

[Jonovision]

Spent the day on Saturday taking in all the celebrations. It was awesome to see it so busy and the complete closure of the Prince/Sackville block for a dance party/beer tent was amazing!

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4536/38191916992_d6b6310d99_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/21bTyks)20171104_110628_HDR (https://flic.kr/p/21bTyks) by Jonovision23 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/36229421@N02/), on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4483/26447661669_45f2694978_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/Gi6boH)20171104_111820 (https://flic.kr/p/Gi6boH) by Jonovision23 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/36229421@N02/), on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4545/38191887582_cc22a176fc_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/21bTpAo)20171104_112316 (https://flic.kr/p/21bTpAo) by Jonovision23 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/36229421@N02/), on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4505/38224120281_8f6830b07d_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/21eJBfz)20171104_225821 (https://flic.kr/p/21eJBfz) by Jonovision23 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/36229421@N02/), on Flickr

[Haliguy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnTkWB2nl4E
We were in Dublin, and where we wanted to go would take us along Grafton Street; we were looking for a bus that went that way. What was once probably a very busy thoroughfare for vehicles is now pedestrian only. People adapt, often we have no choice but to do that

Was there last fall. Grafton St was really busy but everything flowed really well. Gives a great vibe to the city. Argyle St is going to be a great value add to downtown Halifax.

[NDPer4life]

Spent the day on Saturday taking in all the celebrations. It was awesome to see it so busy and the complete closure of the Prince/Sackville block for a dance party/beer tent was amazing!

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4536/38191916992_d6b6310d99_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/21bTyks)20171104_110628_HDR (https://flic.kr/p/21bTyks) by Jonovision23 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/36229421@N02/), on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4483/26447661669_45f2694978_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/Gi6boH)20171104_111820 (https://flic.kr/p/Gi6boH) by Jonovision23 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/36229421@N02/), on

Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4545/38191887582_cc22a176fc_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/21bTpAo)20171104_112316 (https://flic.kr/p/21bTpAo) by Jonovision23 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/36229421@N02/), on Flickr


https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4505/38224120281_8f6830b07d_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/21eJBfz)20171104_225821 (https://flic.kr/p/21eJBfz) by Jonovision23 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/36229421@N02/), on Flickr


Ohhh no where did all these people park!!!
How did this happen in Canada ??
Hmmm Maybe people walked?!!!

[MonctonRad]

Ohhh no where did all these people park!!!
How did this happen in Canada ??
Hmmm Maybe people walked?!!!

Not from Spryfield, Clayton Park or Lower Sackville methinks.

Downtown Halifax needs to belong to all the residents of the metro area, not just those fortunate denizens who can either afford to live there (the rich), or choose to live there (empty nesters and unattached young professionals).

[Keith P.]

Not from Spryfield, Clayton Park or Lower Sackville methinks.

Downtown Halifax needs to belong to all the residents of the metro area, not just those fortunate denizens who can either afford to live there (the rich), or choose to live there (empty nesters and unattached young professionals).

All the politicos shown have parking spots downtown paid for by HRM taxpayers.

The ones in the nighttime crowd shots are mostly students living in the south end plus young hipsters who probably biked, rollerbladed or found some other unconventional form of transportation.

[NDPer4life]

Not from Spryfield, Clayton Park or Lower Sackville methinks.

Downtown Halifax needs to belong to all the residents of the metro area, not just those fortunate denizens who can either afford to live there (the rich), or choose to live there (empty nesters and unattached young professionals).

So take the damd bus. If your poor that’s the best option anyway. Your argument is foolish, we need to keep downtown ugly for the people of the suburbs. This is why Europe has beautiful cities because they don’t build downtown with spyfield in mind. That’s what public transport is for:koko:

[NDPer4life]

The ones in the nighttime crowd shots are mostly students living in the south end plus young hipsters who probably biked, rollerbladed or found some other unconventional form of transportation.

Those are the same people that frequent the bars on argyle. Or you could take a taxi or bus

[Keith P.]

Those are the same people that frequent the bars on argyle. Or you could take a taxi or bus

Non sequitur. They were doing that just as much before HRM dropped millions on making the street "pretty".

[someone123]

It is okay to disagree on issues. However, please be respectful and avoid negative comments about other forumers. They don't add anything substantive to the discussion anyway.

[isaidso]

+1

[Wigglez]

Not from Spryfield, Clayton Park or Lower Sackville methinks.

Downtown Halifax needs to belong to all the residents of the metro area, not just those fortunate denizens who can either afford to live there (the rich), or choose to live there (empty nesters and unattached young professionals).

You can make a counter point that amenities in Spryfield, Clayton Park, or Lower Sackville are not for all residents but just suburbanites? What of the people who either chose or are forced to live downtown without a car and live in walking distance to downtown locations, they would have as tough a time getting to Lower Sackville.

Its an argument that can go both ways :)

Downtown - chose to live urban lifestyle with or without car, will have trouble getting to burbs.
Suburbs - escape urban life to live in larger house, likely don't go downtown often anyways.

Suburbs (a car friendly environment) shouldn't be built with extreme public transport requirements as they likely won't be used as often (by extreme I mean stops on nearly every corner with bus intervals of 20 min or under). Downtowns shouldn't be built with a suburban friendly car environment in mind either.

My 2 cents.

[IanWatson]

Not from Spryfield, Clayton Park or Lower Sackville methinks.

Downtown Halifax needs to belong to all the residents of the metro area,

If you build the downtown for parking then it belongs to cars.

not just those fortunate denizens who can either afford to live there (the rich), or choose to live there (empty nesters and unattached young professionals).

I live downtown. I'm not rich. And while I'm a young professional, I do have a child. It's a little tight and I'll probably try to find a slightly bigger place soon. But it's also worth it in my mind. It's entirely possible if you come around to the idea that you don't necessarily need 2,000 SF and a double car driveway.

[MonctonRad]

I live downtown. I'm not rich. And while I'm a young professional, I do have a child. It's a little tight and I'll probably try to find a slightly bigger place soon. But it's also worth it in my mind. It's entirely possible if you come around to the idea that you don't necessarily need 2,000 SF and a double car driveway.

I fully realize. I was responding just as much to NDPer4life's tone in his/her post as much as anything else. He/she comes across as a pretty sanctimonious and holier-than-thou left wing ideologue.

A downtown lifestyle is something that everyone should be able to aspire to if they so wish. Sacrifices will have to be made however (downsizing, maybe only one car if any car at all, etc). Halifax suffers from the problems of geographic constraint upon it's core, very much like Vancouver. I can foresee in the future this driving an exponential increase in housing costs in peninsular Halifax which may drive many people out of the market, especially people with families. Developers might take advantage of this by building more microcondo suites than anything else. City council should be cognizant of this and make sure that in the future, residential developments in the core should have a suitable number of two or even three bedroom units available, perhaps with a relatively reduced rental cost per square foot, so that young families aren't forced out into the exurban cultural wilderness........

As for parking, Bus transit isn't necessarily convenient or practical for all people for a variety of reasons. People will still need to have the ability to drive into the downtown if they so wish. There will need to be an appropriate amount of parking options, and a certain number of streets will have to be maintained as traditional thoroughfares so that people can get around. Side streets can be made into shared spaces (like Argyle), but streets like Hollis or Barrington need to maintain their current character. There is a middle ground here.

[Haliguy]

Non sequitur. They were doing that just as much before HRM dropped millions on making the street "pretty".

Yes, god forbid we spend some money on the downtown, the heart of the city, to make it look nice. Just terrible :rolleyes:

[Nouvellecosse]

You can make a counter point that amenities in Spryfield, Clayton Park, or Lower Sackville are not for all residents but just suburbanites? What of the people who either chose or are forced to live downtown without a car and live in walking distance to downtown locations, they would have as tough a time getting to Lower Sackville.

Its an argument that can go both ways :)

Downtown - chose to live urban lifestyle with or without car, will have trouble getting to burbs.
Suburbs - escape urban life to live in larger house, likely don't go downtown often anyways.

Suburbs (a car friendly environment) shouldn't be built with extreme public transport requirements as they likely won't be used as often (by extreme I mean stops on nearly every corner with bus intervals of 20 min or under). Downtowns shouldn't be built with a suburban friendly car environment in mind either.

My 2 cents.

Absolutely. Just because you happen to have a car doesn't mean you're forced to bring it with you everywhere you go. Personally, while I have a car that i use mostly for going out of town or to transport bulky items to/from locations outside downtown (mostly suburban) I don't consider it desirable or ethical to bring internal combustion vehicles with a single occupant to city centres and I refuse to do it. It's different for someone with young children or disabilities but for the majority I'd prefer to see parking at fringe areas like the HSC, Quinpool stripmall, etc where people can walk or take transit shuttles in. Best to think of the downtown as if it were a huge shopping mall and commercial/recreation complex. Obviously not something that you drive your car directly into, but that there are ways to help people get around due to the large area compared to a normal building.

I actually wonder if that's part of the reason we've seen a decline of the indoor shopping mall versus big box store and strip malls over the last 20 years. That people are just too lazy to do that much walking. A large shopping mall is similar in scale to the downtown of some small towns and cities and is a totally pedestrianized environment. Even though they were often set in suburban areas, surrounded by parking, had no history or character, and were totally climate controlled, they were still ultimately pedestrian zones. Therefore they were just not a big enough concession to the automobile which must have complete, unfettered access to every human territory. :rolleyes: