[Halifax] Nova Centre | 65-58-58 m | 16-15-14 fl | Completed

[ns_kid]

Why are streetcars never debated or pitched at Council?

There is one significant reason why alternative public transportation options are rarely seriously considered in this region: there is virtually no expertise or understanding in the provincial department of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal, or in HRM's bureaucracy, that doesn't involve asphalt.

There are almost sixty cities in the US and Canada with light rail, heavy rail, streetcar and/or subway systems in operation or in various stages of planning. Yet on the rare occasions the subject has been raised in this city the response from top bureaucrats and politicians has generally been swift: we're too small; we can't afford it.

Of course, we measure our "investment" in roads and highways by an entirely different yardstick. That's because pols have known for decades that laying down pavement is a sure vote-getter. In Nova Scotia last year we spent roughly half a billion dollars (capital and operating) to build and maintain roads. Users paid for only about half of that; the rest came from the taxpayers' pockets.

(The ratio is even more startling when it comes to truck transport. Studies have shown that the road wear caused by heavy trucks far exceeds what their operators pay in taxes and fees, except in a few progressive jurisdictions that have introduced weight-distance taxes. So the next time you curse some slow-moving rig on the highway, find comfort in knowing that you're paying heavily to subsidize that trucker.)

Forgive the digression, but the fundamental point remains: if we judged roads by the same standard we apply to public transport, we'd return a lot of suburban streets and lightly used highways to pasture.

Now that the courts have apparently settled the city's fight with CN on the responsibility to fix crumbling overpasses, its been reported we might be ready to re-engage with the railway on the possibility of introducing some form of rail transit to the city. Don't hold your breath. Overcoming the naysayers will require some strong champions and a lot of public support.

(Another aside: I have been curious about the redevelopment of the Halifax Shipyards lands. The original rail corridor, which extended through Africville and Richmond to the foot of Cornwallis Street, has been paved over but remained essentially intact. Bringing rail transit to the downtown core will require that this corridor remain open through the shipyard.)

Anyway, to get back to the original and more modest suggestion about streetcars, in fact several American cities have returned streetcars to downtown streets in recent years, including New Orleans, Tampa, Philadelphia and Little Rock. They serve as reliable urban transporation and as tourist draws. It is a model Halifax would do well to study. Just don't expect the leadership to come from city staff.

[kph06]

Looks like a new crane is being undloaded down there. It is showing up in blue shipping containers.

[Drybrain]

I wouldn't actually be thrilled about running streetcars in mixed traffic--they're basically buses with higher maintenance costs. (When I moved to Toronto, I though the streetcars were cool. Now I loathe them because they're overcrowded, lumbering, traffic-obstructing beasts that take can 40 minutes to go ten blocks during rush hour.)

But a true on-street LRT, with a dedicated ROW, would be a different story. Indeed, people say there's "nowhere" to run a rail system--well, has anyone suggested simply closing a street or two, partly or entirely, to auto traffic and converting it to an ROW corridor? If it's designed properly and attracts sufficient ridership, it'll take enough cars off the road to more than make up the added congestion on other streets.

Robie could probably accomodate north/south LRT with only partial lane closures (see Toronto's St. Clair ROW) and University could probably do so without any lane closures going east/west. Shut down Morris to traffic and keep heading east. Maybe I'm totally out to lunch and that's crazy from a traffic-engineering perspective, but if so, I'd like someone to explain why.

[fenwick16]

I wouldn't actually be thrilled about running streetcars in mixed traffic--they're basically buses with higher maintenance costs. (When I moved to Toronto, I though the streetcars were cool. Now I loathe them because they're overcrowded, lumbering, traffic-obstructing beasts that take can 40 minutes to go ten blocks during rush hour.)

But a true on-street LRT, with a dedicated ROW, would be a different story. Indeed, people say there's "nowhere" to run a rail system--well, has anyone suggested simply closing a street or two, partly or entirely, to auto traffic and converting it to an ROW corridor? If it's designed properly and attracts sufficient ridership, it'll take enough cars off the road to more than make up the added congestion on other streets.

.
.
.

I agree completely. I hate the TTC streetcars with a passion and have since I moved to the GTA 33 years ago. Navigating the embedded rails, avoiding offloaded passengers, avoiding collision with on-street locomotives (i.e. streetcars), riding on heavy, slow clunkers are all reasons why I wonder why anyone would want such a thing in Halifax (I am sure that Halifax got rid of them for a reason). On the other hand ROW corridors make a lot of sense whether it be light rail or a BRT (Bus Rapid Transit).

[counterfactual]

I wouldn't actually be thrilled about running streetcars in mixed traffic--they're basically buses with higher maintenance costs. (When I moved to Toronto, I though the streetcars were cool. Now I loathe them because they're overcrowded, lumbering, traffic-obstructing beasts that take can 40 minutes to go ten blocks during rush hour.)

But a true on-street LRT, with a dedicated ROW, would be a different story. Indeed, people say there's "nowhere" to run a rail system--well, has anyone suggested simply closing a street or two, partly or entirely, to auto traffic and converting it to an ROW corridor? If it's designed properly and attracts sufficient ridership, it'll take enough cars off the road to more than make up the added congestion on other streets.

Robie could probably accomodate north/south LRT with only partial lane closures (see Toronto's St. Clair ROW) and University could probably do so without any lane closures going east/west. Shut down Morris to traffic and keep heading east. Maybe I'm totally out to lunch and that's crazy from a traffic-engineering perspective, but if so, I'd like someone to explain why.

Why must we do on-street LRT? Why not go off street? As on the corridor ns_kid mentioned above?

And if we can't get CN rail to share the railroad tracks, fuck them, and lets pave a dedicated high speed bus route right beside the tracks all along the harbour. I remember this was an idea that people had raised at the last Cogswell "Re-Imagining" gathering a few months back.

This way, we don't takeover any existing streets (this will never happen with current HRM staff, which I think are the biggest barrier to any kind of real, forward looking change).

[hoser111]

Why must we highjack this thread? I'm pretty sure there's one on transportation?

[Drybrain]

Why must we do on-street LRT? Why not go off street? As on the corridor ns_kid mentioned above?

And if we can't get CN rail to share the railroad tracks, fuck them, and lets pave a dedicated high speed bus route right beside the tracks all along the harbour. I remember this was an idea that people had raised at the last Cogswell "Re-Imagining" gathering a few months back.

This way, we don't takeover any existing streets (this will never happen with current HRM staff, which I think are the biggest barrier to any kind of real, forward looking change).

I don't know enough about rail gauges, rail-sharing, etc., to know if that's feasible. Certainly something to look into if it is, but two potential problems I can think of:

1. Running along the rail cut would circumvent the peninsula, running around the Arm and the deep south end, so it wouldn't be nearly as useful as means of getting around the city. Running an LRT up and down Robie (or Cogswell/Bell Road/South Park?) and then east to downtown would bring people right into the heart of the city.

2. I'd like to think there's a chance that inter-city rail transport might again pick up in Canada, and the city would get more frequent rail service.

I don't think it HAS to run on street, but if we want it to run through the heart of the city without bulldozing a huge swath of said city, it'd kind've have to.

[fenwick16]

Why must we highjack this thread? I'm pretty sure there's one on transportation?

Good point. This is the Nova Centre thread.

It is good to see the steady progress taking place. Ziobrop has a picture of the third crane going up. Thanks again to Ziobrop for all the pictures.

(source: http://fillingtheholehfx.tumblr.com/ )
http://25.media.tumblr.com/43219f02436a797c0fe4b112b1dc4f94/tumblr_mw5xk1OK6k1sjmgsso1_500.jpg

[counterfactual]

There is one significant reason why alternative public transportation options are rarely seriously considered in this region: there is virtually no expertise or understanding in the provincial department of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal, or in HRM's bureaucracy, that doesn't involve asphalt.

There are almost sixty cities in the US and Canada with light rail, heavy rail, streetcar and/or subway systems in operation or in various stages of planning. Yet on the rare occasions the subject has been raised in this city the response from top bureaucrats and politicians has generally been swift: we're too small; we can't afford it.

Of course, we measure our "investment" in roads and highways by an entirely different yardstick. That's because pols have known for decades that laying down pavement is a sure vote-getter. In Nova Scotia last year we spent roughly half a billion dollars (capital and operating) to build and maintain roads. Users paid for only about half of that; the rest came from the taxpayers' pockets.

(The ratio is even more startling when it comes to truck transport. Studies have shown that the road wear caused by heavy trucks far exceeds what their operators pay in taxes and fees, except in a few progressive jurisdictions that have introduced weight-distance taxes. So the next time you curse some slow-moving rig on the highway, find comfort in knowing that you're paying heavily to subsidize that trucker.)

Forgive the digression, but the fundamental point remains: if we judged roads by the same standard we apply to public transport, we'd return a lot of suburban streets and lightly used highways to pasture.

Now that the courts have apparently settled the city's fight with CN on the responsibility to fix crumbling overpasses, its been reported we might be ready to re-engage with the railway on the possibility of introducing some form of rail transit to the city. Don't hold your breath. Overcoming the naysayers will require some strong champions and a lot of public support.

(Another aside: I have been curious about the redevelopment of the Halifax Shipyards lands. The original rail corridor, which extended through Africville and Richmond to the foot of Cornwallis Street, has been paved over but remained essentially intact. Bringing rail transit to the downtown core will require that this corridor remain open through the shipyard.)

Anyway, to get back to the original and more modest suggestion about streetcars, in fact several American cities have returned streetcars to downtown streets in recent years, including New Orleans, Tampa, Philadelphia and Little Rock. They serve as reliable urban transporation and as tourist draws. It is a model Halifax would do well to study. Just don't expect the leadership to come from city staff.

Great post!

Completely agree about HRM bureaucracy.

IMHO, for example, the only reason why we got HRMxD, is because Andy Filmore went in there, busted heads, and basically dragged the bureaucracy kicking and screaming for several years, and got HRMxD (at least the first central phase) done.

Then they basically forced him out. Too much of a change agent.

[teddifax]

Good point. This is the Nova Centre thread.

It is good to see the steady progress taking place. Ziobrop has a picture of the third crane going up. Thanks again to Ziobrop for all the pictures.

(source: http://fillingtheholehfx.tumblr.com/ )
http://25.media.tumblr.com/43219f02436a797c0fe4b112b1dc4f94/tumblr_mw5xk1OK6k1sjmgsso1_500.jpg

Again, please don't hijack this thread and keep it for the Nova Centre.

[fenwick16]

Again, please don't hijack this thread and keep it for the Nova Centre.

:uhh:

[kph06]

Based on the photos it looks to be a flat topped crane as shown below:
http://www.manitowoccranes.com/~/media/Images/products/potain/top-slewing/EMEA/MDT308
Source (http://www.manitowoccranes.com/en/cranes/potain/top-slewing/mdt/MDT-308-A)

[ns_kid]

Why must we highjack this thread? I'm pretty sure there's one on transportation?

Yes there is. I don't think anyone intended to hijack the thread. The conversation began with discussions round the latest cause celebre of Nova Centre naysayers, the closure of one block of Grafton Street (and possibly, periodically, Argyle) to vehicular traffic. That morphed into a discussion about downtown traffic in general. To return to the original point, some of us find it a little bizarre that the STV coalition, Heritage Trust and their acolytes are now standing up to keep Grafton Street safe for the automobile. I hope even they appreciate the irony.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Users paid for only about half of that; the rest came from the taxpayers' pockets.

(The ratio is even more startling when it comes to truck transport. Studies have shown that the road wear caused by heavy trucks far exceeds what their operators pay in taxes and fees, except in a few progressive jurisdictions that have introduced weight-distance taxes. So the next time you curse some slow-moving rig on the highway, find comfort in knowing that you're paying heavily to subsidize that trucker.)

One more slight hijack (sorry), but to bring this a little closer to reality, remember that we are all "users" in one way or another. Whether it be through taking the bus, riding on your bicycle, receiving quick assistance from emergency providers, or consuming goods that are being shipped to you through the trucking industry (, etc.). We all benefit from roads in many ways, so I don't think it's a black and white issue that some "users" should pay everything and others should pay nothing.

Another point is that raising fees for the truckers would be reflected back into the prices for which you pay for your goods shipped from other locations (which is just about everything we buy these days). So in actuality, the solution has to be of a much higher level than simply charging more taxes/fees to truckers.

IMHO, there should be much greater support of rail transport, for example. It is so much more efficient a method for so many reasons than trucking could ever be, but is underutilized in Canada. Not only would the cost of maintaining our roads be lessened, but there would also be much less pollution of our atmosphere (think 1 or 2 locomotives pulling 100 cars on steel rails vs. 100-200 trucks [i.e. for stacked containers] moving the same load across the country - a no-brainer).

Again, sorry for the hijack, just wanted to bring to the surface that it's not really an "us and them" situation, we all have a part in it, and there are greater solutions just waiting for us to use them.

Locally, bring on the LRT, I would welcome a dedicated commuter rail service (including ferry service, if it were viable) with open arms. The more traffic it gets off the roads (including buses, for that matter), the better.

Sorry 'bout that, now back to the Nova Centre. Looking forward to that one being done so that it can be proven to the naysayers that it is a necessary addition. The Hal-Con situation is only a small symptom of a much greater issue.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Back to the Nova Centre, the current convention centre space is well below the capacity that events such as Halcon require. It might not even be a square footage issue, so much as the fact the building is all oddly assembled with the grand room not even being that big.

I don't think the new facility will have issues keeping up. City hall offices being in the old trade centre is also maybe a perfect fit if they are moving in there.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Back to the Nova Centre, the current convention centre space is well below the capacity that events such as Halcon require. It might not even be a square footage issue, so much as the fact the building is all oddly assembled with the grand room not even being that big.

I don't think the new facility will have issues keeping up. City hall offices being in the old trade centre is also maybe a perfect fit if they are moving in there.

:iagree:

[Jonovision]

Took this on the way to work this morning.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/1452340_10100277918317209_919251587_n.jpg

[fenwick16]

The image below is from Ziobrop's tumblr page - http://fillingtheholehfx.tumblr.com/.

It is convenient to have the dirt ramp so that the concrete trucks can drive down into the work site but at some point it will have to be removed. I wonder how long they will keep the dirt ramp? Once it is gone the concrete trucks will have to off-load from the street.

My guess is that they will probably build two levels covering the work site (as they currently appear to be doing) so that the concrete trucks can off-load as close to the work area as possible. But after a couple of levels are complete then off-loading from the street will probably be more advantageous(?)

All the concrete being used in the Nova Centre must be a real boon for the concrete company supplying it.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/84f5b1c4688ee288f694fa8bf5950fe1/tumblr_mwvphmEMAn1sjmgsso1_1280.jpg

[Keith P.]

An amazing amount of "stuff" on that deck already.

[Ziobrop]

The image below is from Ziobrop's tumblr page - http://fillingtheholehfx.tumblr.com/.

It is convenient to have the dirt ramp so that the concrete trucks can drive down into the work site but at some point it will have to be removed. I wonder how long they will keep the dirt ramp? Once it is gone the concrete trucks will have to off-load from the street.

My guess is that they will probably build two levels covering the work site (as they currently appear to be doing) so that the concrete trucks can off-load as close to the work area as possible. But after a couple of levels are complete then off-loading from the street will probably be more advantageous(?)

All the concrete being used in the Nova Centre must be a real boon for the concrete company supplying it.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/84f5b1c4688ee288f694fa8bf5950fe1/tumblr_mwvphmEMAn1sjmgsso1_1280.jpg

I was told, by an architect friend working on the project, that with the exception of the Grafton street portion, the parking slabs were not being constructed to support the load of the concrete and pump trucks. This restricts their pours to a 50m distance from the ground, and adjacent slabs cant be poured concurrently due to shrinkage as the concrete cures.

The ramps days are numbered, as all the bellow grade drainage and waste-water will be connected directly to the citys main, 90m under Sackville st. (apparently installed in the 70's with a tbm). In that corner. the above ground portions will connect to argyle st.

[fenwick16]

I was told, by an architect friend working on the project, that with the exception of the Grafton street portion, the parking slabs were not being constructed to support the load of the concrete and pump trucks.
.
.
.

This is interesting. Thanks for posting this information.

Looking at the floor plan below, I wonder if all of Grafton Street will be able to bear the load of concrete and pumper trucks? This will be directly over the Exhibition Hall and part of it will be column-free.

If the column-free section of the Exhibition Hall can bear the load of concrete trucks then the supporting structure of the roof (i.e. a section of Grafton Street) might have to be designed like a bridge. This makes me wonder if the retail sections on either side of Grafton Street will be steel frame construction that will be both the retail section walls and roof trusses for the column-free section of the Exhibition Hall? It will be very interesting to see the engineering design that goes into the Exhibition Hall and Ballroom sections because of the large column-free spans.

(the source for both images is http://www.halifax2016.ca/ )
http://www.halifax2016.ca/img/Level-1-Exhibition-Hall-2.jpg

In the image below it appears as though the slanted Ballroom structural members might be steel(?)

http://www.halifax2016.ca/img/slider/centre-night.jpg

[Nilan8888]

Have the latest changes to the design been approved yet? Last word was the government still hadn't signed off.

[Ziobrop]

Looking at the floor plan below, I wonder if all of Grafton Street will be able to bear the load of concrete and pumper trucks? This will be directly over the Exhibition Hall and part of it will be column-free.

If the column-free section of the Exhibition Hall can bear the load of concrete trucks then the supporting structure of the roof (i.e. a section of Grafton Street) might have to be designed like a bridge.

i believe its a thickness/quantity of rebar issue. the parking slabs are quite slender, i would imagine they will be thicker under Grafton street.

I refer you to this post on Structure (http://blog.builthalifax.ca/2013/07/theory-structural-systems.html) and this one on 2 way spanning slabs. (http://blog.builthalifax.ca/2013/10/building-2-way-spanning-slab.html)

[beyeas]

This is interesting. Thanks for posting this information.

Looking at the floor plan below, I wonder if all of Grafton Street will be able to bear the load of concrete and pumper trucks? This will be directly over the Exhibition Hall and part of it will be column-free.

If the column-free section of the Exhibition Hall can bear the load of concrete trucks then the supporting structure of the roof (i.e. a section of Grafton Street) might have to be designed like a bridge. This makes me wonder if the retail sections on either side of Grafton Street will be steel frame construction that will be both the retail section walls and roof trusses for the column-free section of the Exhibition Hall? It will be very interesting to see the engineering design that goes into the Exhibition Hall and Ballroom sections because of the large column-free spans.



I am at a conference this week at McCormick Place in Chicago (MonctonRad, I assume you are here too?), and it is pretty impressive to see the exhibit hall here… 2.7 million square feet total space, with 1 million alone in the main exhibit room in the south building!

[MonctonRad]

I am at a conference this week at McCormick Place in Chicago (MonctonRad, I assume you are here too?), and it is pretty impressive to see the exhibit hall here… 2.7 million square feet total space, with 1 million alone in the main exhibit room in the south building!

Nope, I don't like the RSNA very much. A conference with 25-30,000 attendees is too big for me. I much prefer the Roentgen Ray Society instead. Also, Chicago in early December can be pretty frigid. The ARRS in May on the other hand will be in San Diego. :)

McCormack Place is truly spectacular though, especially the exhibit hall. :yes:

[beyeas]

Nope, I don't like the RSNA very much. A conference with 25-30,000 attendees is too big for me. I much prefer the Roentgen Ray Society instead. Also, Chicago in early December can be pretty frigid. The ARRS in May on the other hand will be in San Diego. :)

McCormack Place is truly spectacular though, especially the exhibit hall. :yes:

Actually there is 51,000 people here this year, so it has more than doubled since you last went!
I have never gone to RSNA before this year either! My conference that I prefer to go to every year is ISMRM, which is in Milan this year :-)

[Keith P.]

I thought people did not attend conferences any more? The experts, Phil Pacey and Tim Bousquet assured me that was the case.

What is the world coming to?!? ;)

[beyeas]

I thought people did not attend conferences any more? The experts, Phil Pacey and Tim Bousquet assured me that was the case.

What is the world coming to?!? ;)

meh… what do 51,000 people know eh? :yes:

[fenwick16]

I am at a conference this week at McCormick Place in Chicago (MonctonRad, I assume you are here too?), and it is pretty impressive to see the exhibit hall here… 2.7 million square feet total space, with 1 million alone in the main exhibit room in the south building!

Those numbers are mind-boggling. I have been to a few conventions/trade shows in major US cities but I haven't been in the McCormick Place.

[fenwick16]

i believe its a thickness/quantity of rebar issue. the parking slabs are quite slender, i would imagine they will be thicker under Grafton street.

I refer you to this post on Structure (http://blog.builthalifax.ca/2013/07/theory-structural-systems.html) and this one on 2 way spanning slabs. (http://blog.builthalifax.ca/2013/10/building-2-way-spanning-slab.html)

Thanks for the links Ziobrop. I dreamed as a teenager of designing bridges and skyscrapers but took chemical engineering instead. So I am interested in any structural engineering/construction information.

Thanks again for maintaining your tumblr page - http://fillingtheholehfx.tumblr.com/. I check it daily, and I see today that the dirt ramp is getting smaller. I am looking forward to seeing all the groundwork being completed.

(source: )
http://31.media.tumblr.com/7abc2b3f2115e523001254f6acaf20cc/tumblr_mx8t1sOJlA1sjmgsso1_1280.jpg

[fenwick16]

There are several concrete mixer trucks coming and going today even though it is Saturday - http://www.novascotiawebcams.com/halifax/nova-centre-construction.html. It is great to see such rapid progress taking place.

It appears as though they can build several levels high on the Market Street side before reaching ground level. If the permit and amendment process takes more than the estimated 8 months, maybe they can continue building on the Market Street side to ground level.

[fenwick16]

I notice that there haven't been concrete mixer trucks for the past few days and I assume that it is because it is too cold to pour concrete. Hopefully they will get some warmer spells so they can resume pouring the concrete structure.

[teddifax]

I know they are working now in advance of final approval, but when is that supposed to happen?

[fenwick16]

I know they are working now in advance of final approval, but when is that supposed to happen?

The estimate was 8 months back in mid-July/early August. Based on that estimate it would be around the end of March, 2014. It appears as though they have enough work to continue to the end of March and even beyond if they continue building floor levels on the Market Street side (it appears as through Market Street is around 70 feet from ground level).

I am not sure if it has been determined that an amendment is required (for closing Grafton Street to vehicular through-traffic). If an amendment is required then I hope that the process has been started. If an amendment isn't required then it will just be the usually permit approval and HRM_by_Design Design Review Committee approval of the exterior elements.

[fenwick16]

I hadn't seen this rendering before of the Market Street side. It shows that a large section will be glass on the Market Street side, and it also shows a curved roof style over the column free section of the Ballroom and Exhibit Hall.

(source: Rank Inc. presentation for the October 24, 2013 open house - http://www.halifax.ca/planning/documents/18708PIMPresentationbyApplicant.pdf)

http://imageshack.com/a/img203/2873/5fi8.jpg

[RyeJay]

Thank you, fenwick, for posting this. This has been previously unseen by me as well.

Has anyone come across information about the public displays of art, such as the statues in this rendering? This development has obviously not been a stranger to public consultations. I am curious about final decisions.

The semi-merged towers along Argyle look great, from what we can see of them. :) Seeing the back of them helps me appreciate how they really do resemble a ship. The configuration of this project is so oddly arranged, it has to be investigated from all sides in order to get a true appreciation of what's being built. The Nova Centre looks fun and entertaining, and the foot traffic in this area could very well explode.

I hope the naysayers aren't too disappointed with this success.

[fenwick16]

It is good to see that the builders found a short stretch of weather warm enough to pour some more concrete:

(source: Ziobrop's tumblr page from Dec 23, 2013 - http://fillingtheholehfx.tumblr.com/ )
http://31.media.tumblr.com/0d1e818736df06652d66e7de1132f33a/tumblr_my9htseEVs1sjmgsso1_1280.jpg

[Duff]

I heard from a source that there will be a fourth crane installed but its only purpose will be to offload trucks.

[ns_kid]

Lydon Lynch is requesting an amendent to the TD Centre development agreement to allow for a pedway connection to the proposed 22 Commerce Square project across Granville Street.

http://22ndcommercesquare.ca/default.asp?mn=1.44

This is a positive development; in fact, I believe HRM should insist on provision for pedway connections in any new project.

Which brings us to Nova Centre. As far as I can tell, no plans yet presented for Nova Centre include any indoor connection to the rest of the downtown link system, even though the link-connected Prince George Hotel is just across Prince Street. (I expect linking Nova Centre through the Prince George would require significant renovations to the hotel.) There may also be an opportunity to extend the link to the Marriott Residence and/or Cambridge Suites hotels and possibly Neptune Theatre across Sackville Street.

Anyone have different information? There certainly does not seem to be any allowance for underground connections in the subgrade work now underway.

When this project comes back to regional council for final approval in the new year, I hope the downtown link question is something councillors will ensure is addressed fully.

[counterfactual]

Lydon Lynch is requesting an amendent to the TD Centre development agreement to allow for a pedway connection to the proposed 22 Commerce Square project across Granville Street.

http://22ndcommercesquare.ca/default.asp?mn=1.44

This is a positive development; in fact, I believe HRM should insist on provision for pedway connections in any new project.

Which brings us to Nova Centre. As far as I can tell, no plans yet presented for Nova Centre include any indoor connection to the rest of the downtown link system, even though the link-connected Prince George Hotel is just across Prince Street. (I expect linking Nova Centre through the Prince George would require significant renovations to the hotel.) There may also be an opportunity to extend the link to the Marriott Residence and/or Cambridge Suites hotels and possibly Neptune Theatre across Sackville Street.

Anyone have different information? There certainly does not seem to be any allowance for underground connections in the subgrade work now underway.

When this project comes back to regional council for final approval in the new year, I hope the downtown link question is something councillors will ensure is addressed fully.

Great point.

[teddifax]

Lydon Lynch is requesting an amendent to the TD Centre development agreement to allow for a pedway connection to the proposed 22 Commerce Square project across Granville Street.

http://22ndcommercesquare.ca/default.asp?mn=1.44

This is a positive development; in fact, I believe HRM should insist on provision for pedway connections in any new project.

Which brings us to Nova Centre. As far as I can tell, no plans yet presented for Nova Centre include any indoor connection to the rest of the downtown link system, even though the link-connected Prince George Hotel is just across Prince Street. (I expect linking Nova Centre through the Prince George would require significant renovations to the hotel.) There may also be an opportunity to extend the link to the Marriott Residence and/or Cambridge Suites hotels and possibly Neptune Theatre across Sackville Street.

Anyone have different information? There certainly does not seem to be any allowance for underground connections in the subgrade work now underway.

When this project comes back to regional council for final approval in the new year, I hope the downtown link question is something councillors will ensure is addressed fully.

I think wherever possible the downtown link system should be a no-brainer for any new development in the downtown core. As each new building gets a connection, it enables any further development to also get connected. Maybe the extra tax on hotels could go towards this. I have always though this should be one of the requirements of any new development in the core. For conventions especially this is crucial as anyone attending an event there would much prefer not having to take along jackets (and boots, etc.). I hope HRM council adds this as one of the criteria/requirements of any new development.

[ILoveHalifax]

I would think the developer of the Nova Center would not be too anxious to make it easy for delegates to stay at an off site hotel.

[Duff]

Two from today

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5524/11653551084_f47fdc603d_b.jpg

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5544/11653452883_ff426fd456_b.jpg

[Aya_Akai]

Two from today

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5524/11653551084_f47fdc603d_b.jpg



7 or 8 years ago never did I think I would EVER see anything like that in Downtown Halifax :cheers:

[ns_kid]

I would think the developer of the Nova Center would not be too anxious to make it easy for delegates to stay at an off site hotel.

I want to believe that Mr. Ramia is more far-sighted than that. But that's why it's council's responsibility to protect the broader interest.

[FuzzyWuz]

I would think the developer of the Nova Center would not be too anxious to make it easy for delegates to stay at an off site hotel.

I think a decision made on that basis would be self destructive. Making the place less accessible is just bad for the whole development.

[beyeas]

I want to believe that Mr. Ramia is more far-sighted than that. But that's why it's council's responsibility to protect the broader interest.

Given the size of conference that they are now looking to attract with the new centre, it is a requirement that it be well connected with other infrastructure and hotels. In fact, even aside from the fact that the hotel couldn't accommodate the people they are looking to attract, the reality of conference organizing is that you need to be able to offer hotels in a range of budgets. There is no way you can base a convention centre on trying to limit access to other hotels.

[MonctonRad]

:previous:

Exactly Beyeas. I know that you were in Chicago last month for the RSNA, and a megaconference like that wouldn't be able to exist in Chicago unless all the hotels in the core were recruited to host attendees.

[halifaxboyns]

:previous:

Exactly Beyeas. I know that you were in Chicago last month for the RSNA, and a megaconference like that wouldn't be able to exist in Chicago unless all the hotels in the core were recruited to host attendees.

Agreed - I went to the American Planning Association conference held in Chicago, which was held at the Hyatt downtown (they have a big conference centre as part of it) and there were at least 4 other hotels people were staying at near by because the Hyatt booked up quickly. Myself and a few others stayed at the Sheraton across the river and would walk over - wasn't pleasant when it was rainy, but it was okay.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Bingo. This has been one of the lies of the opponents... when the reality is that many hotels will be needed aside from the NC to host everyone and in varying budgets.

They wanted us to all believe that there would be too much capacity, when the opposite is likely, especially in the summer months.

Now, if they had used their typical "it will make the city too busy" argument, that would have worked... but the goal is to make downtown more busy!

[Keith P.]

Bernie Smith always used to contend that there was a need for a large (400-500 room) hotel downtown that could accommodate large events, with large ballrooms and significant kitchen capacity, that would handle major events. Perhaps Nova Center will address this.

[halifaxboyns]

Bernie Smith always used to contend that there was a need for a large (400-500 room) hotel downtown that could accommodate large events, with large ballrooms and significant kitchen capacity, that would handle major events. Perhaps Nova Center will address this.

I remember him talking about that - hopefully it will. I'm part of an organization that is planning a major conference in Edmonton for 2015 and we are looking to get about 400 people going. Since we will be using the Shaw Convention Centre, that will mean booking rooms at the Westin, the Fairmont and likely the Marriott in order to cover everyone.

I'm looking at going to the Canadian Institute of Planners conference in Fredericton in July; which they are doing at the Fredericton Convention centre. There is no word on the specific hotels, but likely the Crowne Plaza and the Delta will be the two major ones since most of our conferences tend to attract around 800 to 1000 delegates.

I'd love to see a world Planners Congress happen again and be in Halifax. The one in Vancouver had about 3,000 delegates - was amazing. The American Planning Association conferences typically attract 3-5,000. How the Chicago Hyatt managed to handle all of us - amazing.

[counterfactual]

Bingo. This has been one of the lies of the opponents... when the reality is that many hotels will be needed aside from the NC to host everyone and in varying budgets.

They wanted us to all believe that there would be too much capacity, when the opposite is likely, especially in the summer months.

Now, if they had used their typical "it will make the city too busy" argument, that would have worked... but the goal is to make downtown more busy!

Totally. The anti-development crowd, and their hero Phil Pacey, love trotting out the same tired old studies, often from years ago, about how any new developments (commercial or residential) would completely swallow demand for 30 years!

But then, reality keeps getting in the way. The very same thing was said about the King's Wharf development, and there, they had sold 3/4 of all units before the first two towers were built.

Build it and they will come.

[Empire]

I would think the developer of the Nova Center would not be too anxious to make it easy for delegates to stay at an off site hotel.

It's really too bad there isn't a plan to connect to the Prince George which in turn would connect the entire downtown to the Nova Centre. Yes there would be some reconfiguration involved but I think HRM should have brokered a connection from the Nova Centre to the downtown pedway system.

[ILoveHalifax]

I cannot remember ever attending any trade show or convention where off site hotels were connected to the convention place. Just one of the reasons to book early and pay extra for the best room(s).
It might be nice for some who want to pay less but it's really all about business as far as hotel/convention centers are concerned.

[teddifax]

No matter what, I believe there should be a condition on development downtown, wherever possible to connect to the downtown link. If the Nova Centre links up then it would be easier for any other developments to hook up as they happen. It would be great to have the new Roy and Discovery Ctr projects linked as well, if just to allow people to get around downtown without having to brave bad weather.

[someone123]

No matter what, I believe there should be a condition on development downtown, wherever possible to connect to the downtown link. If the Nova Centre links up then it would be easier for any other developments to hook up as they happen. It would be great to have the new Roy and Discovery Ctr projects linked as well, if just to allow people to get around downtown without having to brave bad weather.

There are downsides to developing pedways. They break up pedestrian traffic, making it harder to have retail along the streets, they can be unsightly and cause problems for larger vehicles, and they are private rather than public. If they were mandated for every major new building downtown I don't think the results would actually be that great.

[Keith P.]

No matter what, I believe there should be a condition on development downtown, wherever possible to connect to the downtown link. If the Nova Centre links up then it would be easier for any other developments to hook up as they happen. It would be great to have the new Roy and Discovery Ctr projects linked as well, if just to allow people to get around downtown without having to brave bad weather.

The problem is that the Link as currently constructed is a terrible mishmash of things. It starts in the basement level of the Prince George so there is no direct outside access to it. It takes you to the main level of the WTCC which is fine, but you then have to go down stairs or elevator to the lower level to continue on. Then there is an escalator to take you under Duke Street before you are brought into Scotia Mall. You wander through there then have to go up some stairs to cross Barrington. Then you are into Barrington Place. From there you can take the long stroll to Purdy's and the Casino without much interruption, but it you want to go to the CIBC or TD buildings there is another escalator. It is very poorly designed.

[counterfactual]

The problem is that the Link as currently constructed is a terrible mishmash of things. It starts in the basement level of the Prince George so there is no direct outside access to it. It takes you to the main level of the WTCC which is fine, but you then have to go down stairs or elevator to the lower level to continue on. Then there is an escalator to take you under Duke Street before you are brought into Scotia Mall. You wander through there then have to go up some stairs to cross Barrington. Then you are into Barrington Place. From there you can take the long stroll to Purdy's and the Casino without much interruption, but it you want to go to the CIBC or TD buildings there is another escalator. It is very poorly designed.

At the very least, they could have better signage (typical problem in this city). I wouldn't know the things you described there, and I've used the darn thing often enough.

[ILoveHalifax]

No matter what, I believe there should be a condition on development downtown, wherever possible to connect to the downtown link. If the Nova Centre links up then it would be easier for any other developments to hook up as they happen. It would be great to have the new Roy and Discovery Ctr projects linked as well, if just to allow people to get around downtown without having to brave bad weather.

The cost of the pedway system can be quite high for a developer. For example from Nova Center to The Roy would require escalators down several levels to get to the Roy entrance on Granville St. Security would also be an issue to limit access to the condos.

[Dmajackson]

I think the pedway system should be LIMITED within Downtown.

Where I live here in Calgary is very close to the extensive Plus 15 (http://calgaryplus15.com/) system which is nice during the extreme cold snaps but otherwise I prefer fresh-air. Halifax doesn't get that many cold snap days during the winter and it experiences warmer days for a longer period of time. IMO Halifax's pedway system should be limited by not allowing new retail with direct access to it except in Scotia Square. This will keep retail street-facing and not affect the vibrancy of downtown. In addition any future extensions should be focused in the east-west direction where steep grade changes lower interaction between the waterfront and "upper downtown".

Where I do think expansion of the Downtown Halifax Link is okay would be from TD - RBC - BMO - Ferry Terminal. Also from the Brunswick Street Towers to Citadel Hotel Block to a future redevelopment of HRP HQ where there would be a main entrance on Gottingen Street. Other than these two areas I don't think expansion is needed or a good idea.

In lieu of expanding the DHL I would focus on improving the pedestrian experience on downtown sidewalks. Existing policy in HRMxD is a great step towards achieving this goal but in addition to canopies, street trees, and wider sidewalks I would aim at getting heated sidewalks.

[ns_kid]

I think the pedway system should be LIMITED within Downtown.

Where I live here in Calgary is very close to the extensive Plus 15 (http://calgaryplus15.com/) system which is nice during the extreme cold snaps but otherwise I prefer fresh-air. Halifax doesn't get that many cold snap days during the winter and it experiences warmer days for a longer period of time.

You're quite right about the temperatures, but overlook the fact that Halifax annually averages 162 days of precipitation (44% of the year :irked:) and 1468 millimetres of rain and snow (behind only St. John's and Abbotsford). That compares to Calgary's 419 millimetres over 112 days.

Source: Environment Canada, Canadian Climate Normals.

[counterfactual]

I think the pedway system should be LIMITED within Downtown.

Where I live here in Calgary is very close to the extensive Plus 15 (http://calgaryplus15.com/) system which is nice during the extreme cold snaps but otherwise I prefer fresh-air. Halifax doesn't get that many cold snap days during the winter and it experiences warmer days for a longer period of time. IMO Halifax's pedway system should be limited by not allowing new retail with direct access to it except in Scotia Square. This will keep retail street-facing and not affect the vibrancy of downtown. In addition any future extensions should be focused in the east-west direction where steep grade changes lower interaction between the waterfront and "upper downtown".

Where I do think expansion of the Downtown Halifax Link is okay would be from TD - RBC - BMO - Ferry Terminal. Also from the Brunswick Street Towers to Citadel Hotel Block to a future redevelopment of HRP HQ where there would be a main entrance on Gottingen Street. Other than these two areas I don't think expansion is needed or a good idea.

In lieu of expanding the DHL I would focus on improving the pedestrian experience on downtown sidewalks. Existing policy in HRMxD is a great step towards achieving this goal but in addition to canopies, street trees, and wider sidewalks I would aim at getting heated sidewalks.

Nicely put. I was also thinking that the issue about a pedway, is that it takes people off the street and streetfront, when, in fact, we want to encourage more foot traffic to breathe more life into our downtown. Do we need to divert more people from the street to isolated tunnels running over streets?

It's a balance. We need to be smart about it.

[Phalanx]

Out of curiosity, are there any studies or statistics that cover the impact of a tunnel/pedway system on businesses/street life?

The way I see it, the people using the pedway/tunnels usually aren't the people that are going out for a stroll or window shopping in the first place. It's about getting from point A to point B in an efficient and/or sheltered manner.

[counterfactual]

Out of curiosity, are there any studies or statistics that cover the impact of a tunnel/pedway system on businesses/street life?

The way I see it, the people using the pedway/tunnels usually aren't the people that are going out for a stroll or window shopping in the first place. It's about getting from point A to point B in an efficient and/or sheltered manner.

Not sure if that is borne out by market research. I don't have a study at my finger tips, but don't think you can divide consumers like that. I think market research suggests that those Point A to Point B people might also be reliable for an extra purchase point or two, if they are steered towards small business/store fronts, and not closed off from them in tunnels or pedways.

There has been a strong debate in Edmonton on this, with people suggesting that the pedway in Edmonton basically killled downtown and "vibrant" streets.

Here's the piece:


"Pedways killing street ambience: If you want to make an immediate and positive change to Edmonton's downtown, close the pedways."

http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/columnists/story.html?id=21c01ab7-c819-44a2-8a9e-967fb29c7ac2

[counterfactual]

Not sure if that is borne out by market research. I don't have a study at my finger tips, but don't think you can divide consumers like that. I think market research suggests that those Point A to Point B people might also be reliable for an extra purchase point or two, if they are steered towards small business/store fronts, and not closed off from them in tunnels or pedways.

There has been a strong debate in Edmonton on this, with people suggesting that the pedway in Edmonton basically killled downtown and "vibrant" streets.

Here's the piece:


"Pedways killing street ambience: If you want to make an immediate and positive change to Edmonton's downtown, close the pedways."

http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/columnists/story.html?id=21c01ab7-c819-44a2-8a9e-967fb29c7ac2

By the way, I quite like the suggestion in that piece for Winter markets. Why not something like that around Christmas in Grand Parade?

[Phalanx]

The counter argument to Edmonton would be Montreal, which has (as far as I can recall) the most extensive tunnel/pedway system in the world, and still has a vibrant streetlife (Toronto can also be included in here, of course). And given how well connected, and how well supplied it is in terms of attractions and shopping, would be far more of a 'threat' than Halifax's extremely utilitarian network. Give people a reason to go out and they will.

[counterfactual]

The counter argument to Edmonton would be Montreal, which has (as far as I can recall) the most extensive tunnel/pedway system in the world, and still has a vibrant streetlife (Toronto can also be included in here, of course). And given how well connected, and how well supplied it is in terms of attractions and shopping, would be far more of a 'threat' than Halifax's extremely utilitarian network. Give people a reason to go out and they will.

True, but in terms of our populations and the challenges we face downtown, we are much more comparable to Edmonton than Montreal or Toronto. The latter two have the population densities and critical mass of business downtown that some pedways make not have any impact. Not the same, obviously, for Edmonton. Perhaps not so for Halifax too.

[someone123]

First Canadian Place in Toronto has about half as many people working in it as all of downtown Halifax. Toronto also has a high-capacity subway system to bring in people. It is literally to the point where they would not fit on the sidewalks if the underground were taken out.

I think the worst aspect of the pedways is that they encourage privatization of the downtown and encourage developers to shift foot traffic into mall-like environments while ignoring the public realm. Scotia Square is a prime example of this; it is basically a mall with a parking garage attached, and it has no storefronts along Barrington Street. It has arguably had a negative impact on the street, even though it is probably quite successful from a financial standpoint.

I wouldn't call for there to be zero pedways but they have to be dealt with carefully. The northern end of the downtown that has most (all?) of the pedways is incidentally the worst from a connectivity and pedestrian traffic standpoint.

[counterfactual]

First Canadian Place in Toronto has about half as many people working in it as all of downtown Halifax. Toronto also has a high-capacity subway system to bring in people. It is literally to the point where they would not fit on the sidewalks if the underground were taken out.

I think the worst aspect of the pedways is that they encourage privatization of the downtown and encourage developers to shift foot traffic into mall-like environments while ignoring the public realm. Scotia Square is a prime example of this; it is basically a mall with a parking garage attached, and it has no storefronts along Barrington Street. It has arguably had a negative impact on the street, even though it is probably quite successful from a financial standpoint.

I wouldn't call for there to be zero pedways but they have to be dealt with carefully. The northern end of the downtown that has most (all?) of the pedways is incidentally the worst from a connectivity and pedestrian traffic standpoint.

Very true. The pedways, at least the ones we have, seems to be oriented around a certain kind of design philosophy, where the last concern is walkability and connectivity on public streets.

I would say they are most common on the northern end of Barrington as a symptom of bad urban planning and design in that area. Scotia Square, I think, is a big part of that problem, basically sucking any potential life out of the norther part of Barrington... for what? A big ugly soulless concrete wall, with some air ventilators. Naturally, you need pedways around there, because with all the roads, concrete walls, and weird parking lots, designers have erected in the path of pedestrians (ie try walking down from Barrington/Duke bus stop to Hollis, outside the pedways, that is). Once you design crappy streetscapes, who wouldn't want to walk over them in a pedway?

As for inside Scotia Square, I don't know how successful it is, but I find it's a pretty depressing place even as far as malls go. And nothing is open a speck past 5pm. That place hallows out into a deadly silent cave. Isn't Scotia Square getting an upgrade? Sadly, I think I remember Waye Mason saying that none of the "facial lifts" for the outside of Scotia Square will involve knocking down, or even altering, the pointless ugly concrete wall from Duke/Barrington to the bus stops...

So, on second thought, let's leave the pedways off the Nova Centre. :)

[Empire]

Very true. The pedways, at least the ones we have, seems to be oriented around a certain kind of design philosophy, where the last concern is walkability and connectivity on public streets.

I would say they are most common on the northern end of Barrington as a symptom of bad urban planning and design in that area. Scotia Square, I think, is a big part of that problem, basically sucking any potential life out of the norther part of Barrington... for what? A big ugly soulless concrete wall, with some air ventilators. Naturally, you need pedways around there, because with all the roads, concrete walls, and weird parking lots, designers have erected in the path of pedestrians (ie try walking down from Barrington/Duke bus stop to Hollis, outside the pedways, that is). Once you design crappy streetscapes, who wouldn't want to walk over them in a pedway?

As for inside Scotia Square, I don't know how successful it is, but I find it's a pretty depressing place even as far as malls go. And nothing is open a speck past 5pm. That place hallows out into a deadly silent cave. Isn't Scotia Square getting an upgrade? Sadly, I think I remember Waye Mason saying that none of the "facial lifts" for the outside of Scotia Square will involve knocking down, or even altering, the pointless ugly concrete wall from Duke/Barrington to the bus stops...

So, on second thought, let's leave the pedways off the Nova Centre. :)

Pedways can serve a useful purpose in a city like Halifax. There are many days in downtown Halifax when walking at street level is unappealing. We get a lot of horizontal rain storms, high winds as well as a mix of sleet rain and snow. When there is a lot of snow, sidewalks become a challenge for many with high banks and icy sidewalks at a steep grade. Sidewalks are narrow and there is limited potential to widen them in most cases.

There is a steady stream of people using the pedway from Purdy's Wharf, Casino and the Marriott to the rest of downtown. In this case people are avoiding an extremely poor street level pedestrian experience. There is no crosswalk from Purdy's / Marriott to downtown until you reach Duke street and then it is poorly designed or marked. Pedways could bring people out of their offices at noon on a nasty day that might otherwise stay put.

Purdy's Link:
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=halifax&hl=en&ll=44.650948,-63.575521&spn=0.000008,0.003782&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=40.460237,61.962891&hnear=Halifax,+Halifax+Regional+Municipality,+Nova+Scotia,+Canada&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=44.650895,-63.575372&panoid=fRrTpTB9jaHTqmF8fzpW7A&cbp=12,98.59,,0,0

No marked crosswalk 1 - Upper Water:
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=halifax&hl=en&ll=44.65049,-63.574024&spn=0.000004,0.001891&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=40.460237,61.962891&hnear=Halifax,+Halifax+Regional+Municipality,+Nova+Scotia,+Canada&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=44.650443,-63.573935&panoid=kh72v-M-_xcHLPU0EL_dfg&cbp=12,146.4,,0,0

No marked crosswalk 2: - Hollis
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=halifax&hl=en&ll=44.650395,-63.574289&spn=0.000004,0.001891&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=40.460237,61.962891&hnear=Halifax,+Halifax+Regional+Municipality,+Nova+Scotia,+Canada&t=h&layer=c&cbll=44.650271,-63.574204&panoid=kPa-J7tL2Z7XUfelpHSEIw&cbp=12,146.4,,0,0&z=19

Non-existent crosswalks 3 - Duke & Hollis:
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=halifax&hl=en&ll=44.649763,-63.573892&spn=0.000004,0.001891&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=40.460237,61.962891&hnear=Halifax,+Halifax+Regional+Municipality,+Nova+Scotia,+Canada&t=h&layer=c&cbll=44.649624,-63.573806&panoid=Qv-2qU11weHBTPxZIczDtg&cbp=12,159.31,,0,15.43&z=19

Non-existent crosswalks 4 - Duke & Lower Water:
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=halifax&hl=en&ll=44.649735,-63.573399&spn=0.000004,0.001891&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=40.460237,61.962891&hnear=Halifax,+Halifax+Regional+Municipality,+Nova+Scotia,+Canada&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=44.64962,-63.573326&panoid=twbvgo1N4UPzLNGKWB0aTQ&cbp=12,146.4,,0,22.5

Good shot of Purdy's:
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=halifax&hl=en&ll=44.652414,-63.574362&spn=0.000015,0.007564&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=40.460237,61.962891&hnear=Halifax,+Halifax+Regional+Municipality,+Nova+Scotia,+Canada&t=h&layer=c&cbll=44.652414,-63.574362&cbp=12,0,,0,0&z=17&photoid=po-91367614

[ns_kid]

I think the worst aspect of the pedways is that they encourage privatization of the downtown and encourage developers to shift foot traffic into mall-like environments while ignoring the public realm.

I recognize the validity of this theory but can't help but reflect that, if it were necessarily true, Scotia Square and Barrington Place would be thriving retail environments. Of course the opposite is true. Barrington Place has thrown in the towel and Scotia Square is a shadow of a mall today; Purdy's Wharf has never had a significant retail component. The Maritime Centre mall has virtually disappeared and Park Lane is also diminished; neither are link-connected. The fact is, no indoor mall has truly succeeded in downtown Halifax, pedway or no pedway.

I see very little evidence that Halifax's Downtown Link has had a significant impact on street-level business and even less that it has succeeded in "mall-ing the downtown". I'd repeat my earlier observation that a significant variable in the comparison of Halifax with Calgary and Edmonton is year-round precipitation; another is the severe grade of major east-west thoroughfares.

[Phalanx]

First Canadian Place in Toronto has about half as many people working in it as all of downtown Halifax. Toronto also has a high-capacity subway system to bring in people. It is literally to the point where they would not fit on the sidewalks if the underground were taken out.


I'm aware that we're dealing with a vastly different scale in terms of population, but we're also talking about a vastly different scale in terms of tunnel/pedway development. If you're going to look at the scale of one, you have to look at the scale of the other, and the Halifax network is by no means overdeveloped.

I think the worst aspect of the pedways is that they encourage privatization of the downtown and encourage developers to shift foot traffic into mall-like environments while ignoring the public realm. Scotia Square is a prime example of this; it is basically a mall with a parking garage attached, and it has no storefronts along Barrington Street. It has arguably had a negative impact on the street, even though it is probably quite successful from a financial standpoint.

I wouldn't call for there to be zero pedways but they have to be dealt with carefully. The northern end of the downtown that has most (all?) of the pedways is incidentally the worst from a connectivity and pedestrian traffic standpoint.

Like I said above, give people a reason to go out, and they'll go out. This isn't the fault of the existing pedway or tunnel system, it's the result of poor planning/development. The two options can co-exist.

[counterfactual]

I recognize the validity of this theory but can't help but reflect that, if it were necessarily true, Scotia Square and Barrington Place would be thriving retail environments. Of course the opposite is true. Barrington Place has thrown in the towel and Scotia Square is a shadow of a mall today; Purdy's Wharf has never had a significant retail component. The Maritime Centre mall has virtually disappeared and Park Lane is also diminished; neither are link-connected. The fact is, no indoor mall has truly succeeded in downtown Halifax, pedway or no pedway.

I see very little evidence that Halifax's Downtown Link has had a significant impact on street-level business and even less that it has succeeded in "mall-ing the downtown". I'd repeat my earlier observation that a significant variable in the comparison of Halifax with Calgary and Edmonton is year-round precipitation; another is the severe grade of major east-west thoroughfares.

I think there are a plethora of reasons why Scotia Square, Barrington Place, and Maritime Centre, etc, have all failed as indoor retail spaces.

But I don't think we need to create any more challenges for downtown small business, especially streetfront business, than they already face in competing with suburban big box.

Again, I'm not wholeheartedly against pedways, I just think we shouldn't just put them everywhere as a matter of course.

FWIW, I wouldn't put Park Lane into the same category as some of the aforementioned failed spaces; it's a little glum in there, but I think it just needs some proper investment for a facelift and a landlord willing to go out and work hard to score some proper tenants, the way the Halifax Shopping Center does.

[Keith P.]

FWIW, I wouldn't put Park Lane into the same category as some of the aforementioned failed spaces; it's a little glum in there, but I think it just needs some proper investment for a facelift and a landlord willing to go out and work hard to score some proper tenants, the way the Halifax Shopping Center does.

When it was brand new it was essentially full of tenants upon opening, on two levels. Nobody went in there after the first few weeks it seemed, or if they did, they didn't buy anything. I lived in the area and cannot totally explain it. I bought things there because it was a short walk away, but I suspect that people from outside the neighborhood did not go there as a destination. Perhaps the well-known Haligonian aversion to parking garages and paying to park in them caused that. I don't know. It seems they also had great trouble drawing in the many pedestrians who went by the front doors every day. It's a shame, because it was a really nice mall when it first opened, and had some really nice shops that met their doom.

[counterfactual]

When it was brand new it was essentially full of tenants upon opening, on two levels. Nobody went in there after the first few weeks it seemed, or if they did, they didn't buy anything. I lived in the area and cannot totally explain it. I bought things there because it was a short walk away, but I suspect that people from outside the neighborhood did not go there as a destination. Perhaps the well-known Haligonian aversion to parking garages and paying to park in them caused that. I don't know. It seems they also had great trouble drawing in the many pedestrians who went by the front doors every day. It's a shame, because it was a really nice mall when it first opened, and had some really nice shops that met their doom.

Your experience/thoughts don't sound too different from what others have said to me (and my own experience with the place). Agree about the aversion to parking garages/paying to park. Often when Haligonians say "there's nowhere to park!" what they really mean, is nowhere *free*.

I think for a place like Park Lane to raise its game to the next level, is it needs to land an big name anchor tenant. I don't think Park Lane has ever done that (I could be wrong-- if someone could correct me). Once you get a big tenant that will attract people to come, they'll visit other shops as a matter of course, or there's at least a better chance. And other retailers will want to be where the anchor tenant already is.

Right now, I don't think Park Lane is in a condition to attract a "hip" or big name tenant until it takes on some interior improvements (possibly exterior too). It looks a bit 1980s in there and often seems dim and glum.

Park Lane reminds me of the way Halifax Shopping Center looked a few years back. Since then, they've done some major renovations, really brightened up the place, and also aggressively courted big name anchor clients like Apple, Sephora, H&M, Victoria's Secret, etc. Has really turned things around.

For Park Lane: A little TLC (ie major renovations), aggressively court big anchor client(s), and cross fingers.

[someone123]

I recognize the validity of this theory but can't help but reflect that, if it were necessarily true, Scotia Square and Barrington Place would be thriving retail environments. Of course the opposite is true. ... I see very little evidence that Halifax's Downtown Link has had a significant impact on street-level business and even less that it has succeeded in "mall-ing the downtown".

My argument was simply that pedways can harm storefront retail. I'm not sure the present-day failure of the downtown mini-malls says much either way about that. Thriving storefronts downtown next to pedways would be counter-evidence but we haven't seen that (I wish this were the case).

I would argue though that the more interesting parts of downtown tend to be farther away from the pedways and larger-footprint office developments. The northern end of the downtown around Cogswell is generally pretty awful, and I suspect the pedways there are part symptom (how else would you get over the heavy traffic barreling along Cogswell?) and part cause.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Agree about the aversion to parking garages/paying to park. Often when Haligonians say "there's nowhere to park!" what they really mean, is nowhere *free*.

I love this about Halifax. Whenever I go downtown on evenings and weekends I head straight for the parking garages because I know there will always be plenty of parking in them. Yep, well worth the 5 bucks or whatever to not circle the 1-way streets for a half hour to wedge my car into a spot only to find that a truck has sideswiped it when I come back (this has happened to me).

:haha:

[OldDartmouthMark]

Pedways can serve a useful purpose in a city like Halifax. There are many days in downtown Halifax when walking at street level is unappealing. We get a lot of horizontal rain storms, high winds as well as a mix of sleet rain and snow. When there is a lot of snow, sidewalks become a challenge for many with high banks and icy sidewalks at a steep grade. Sidewalks are narrow and there is limited potential to widen them in most cases.

There is a steady stream of people using the pedway from Purdy's Wharf, Casino and the Marriott to the rest of downtown. In this case people are avoiding an extremely poor street level pedestrian experience. There is no crosswalk from Purdy's / Marriott to downtown until you reach Duke street and then it is poorly designed or marked. Pedways could bring people out of their offices at noon on a nasty day that might otherwise stay put.

Agree with this. Typically I will use the pedways to get from A to B in nasty weather (which we have a lot of). It's also a quick way to get from the waterfront to the Metro Centre without having to deal with traffic and challenging street crossings (BTW, a convenient tip when attending large events at the Metro Centre is to park at Purdy's wharf parkade and make your way through the pedways/tunnels to the MC - you avoid the throngs of people sparring for parking spaces and avoid the Scotia Square traffic jam after the event. Might cost you an extra $3, but well worth it).

However, on nice days I think most Haligonians are more likely to get outside and walk the streets to enjoy the (rare) nice weather, even if a less direct route takes a few more minutes. :2cents:

[counterfactual]

Pedways can serve a useful purpose in a city like Halifax. There are many days in downtown Halifax when walking at street level is unappealing. We get a lot of horizontal rain storms, high winds as well as a mix of sleet rain and snow. When there is a lot of snow, sidewalks become a challenge for many with high banks and icy sidewalks at a steep grade. Sidewalks are narrow and there is limited potential to widen them in most cases.

There is a steady stream of people using the pedway from Purdy's Wharf, Casino and the Marriott to the rest of downtown. In this case people are avoiding an extremely poor street level pedestrian experience. There is no crosswalk from Purdy's / Marriott to downtown until you reach Duke street and then it is poorly designed or marked. Pedways could bring people out of their offices at noon on a nasty day that might otherwise stay put.

I agree that they play a purpose where street level walking is "unappealing", especially down around Purdy's/Marriott.

But that's largely a product of the Cogswell Exchange, whose days are numbered, thankfully. In a not too distant future, Cogswell will be smashed, and we might actually end up with some properly planned streetscapes around that area, especially as more residential development moves in (a natural product of Cogswell going).

Do we want to pedway policy shaped for how our streets look today? Or how they will look tomorrow? Perhaps in 10-15 years, we will be wondering why nobody is enjoying the lovely walking experience and instead still tramping through cold pedways...

[Empire]

I agree that they play a purpose where street level walking is "unappealing", especially down around Purdy's/Marriott.

But that's largely a product of the Cogswell Exchange, whose days are numbered, thankfully. In a not too distant future, Cogswell will be smashed, and we might actually end up with some properly planned streetscapes around that area, especially as more residential development moves in (a natural product of Cogswell going).

Do we want to pedway policy shaped for how our streets look today? Or how they will look tomorrow? Perhaps in 10-15 years, we will be wondering why nobody is enjoying the lovely walking experience and instead still tramping through cold pedways...

I would prefer underground links so they don't disrupt the streetscape but that is cost prohibitive in most cases. Pedways probably wouldn't be allowed if they were to block the harbour view on east-west streets.

There may be a minor argument supporting the idea that street level retail would see less traffic with multiple pedways. It is hard to imagine downtown would be better off without the link system now in place though. The pedway connecting CIBC and the Delta and the one connecting the Delta and Scotia Square would have very little impact on street level retail.

After all, we are talking about a town that can't even paint crosswalks.

CIBC to Delta: (look at the crosswalk)
https://maps.google.ca/?ll=44.649171,-63.575047&spn=0.000008,0.003782&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=44.649171,-63.575047&panoid=jW2ryHabfpAxYbgpYMsJRQ&cbp=12,67.25,,0,0

Delta to Scotia Square: (look at the crosswalk)
https://maps.google.ca/?ll=44.650321,-63.575624&spn=0.000004,0.001891&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=44.650321,-63.575624&panoid=G6jeDbgB5UaaQyHS7FAp3w&cbp=12,155.81,,0,0

[teddifax]

Just wondering, when is it that the final design is to be approved so the actual Nova Ctr can be built, not just the underground parking?

[Drybrain]

After all, we are talking about a town that can't even paint crosswalks.


Don't fear for the crosswalks. Check this intersection out (http://goo.gl/maps/5AHjd) as you land on it at this link, then press your down arrow--the image moves from April 2012 to July 2012 and voila! New crosswalk paint.

As far as pedways, not necessarily opposed, but I'm not convinced they would be preferable to simply keeping the streets free of excessive ice and snow in winter. (Maybe with that wacky heated sidewalk plan). I've never seen a pedway system that didn't seem to be removing at least some action from the streets. The PATH in Toronto is something of an exception, but it really only exists in the financial district, where there's a ridiculous crush of people anyway, mainly concerned with getting from A to B than with spending time on the street in any meaningful way. Not the same kind of environment as downtown Halifax. Both the PATH and the streets are deserted by 7 p.m.

[Empire]

[QUOTE=Drybrain;6399389]Don't fear for the crosswalks. Check this intersection out (http://goo.gl/maps/5AHjd) as you land on it at this link, then press your down arrow--the image moves from April 2012 to July 2012 and voila! New crosswalk paint.
QUOTE]

Maybe new crosswalk paint. There is still one not painted at all. This is an old HRM trick, paint one, two or three crosswalks at an intersection and leave one or more never painted. Off topic but important to call HRM out on it. It's a disgrace.

https://maps.google.ca/?ll=44.646048,-63.574973&spn=0.002023,0.007564&t=h&layer=c&cbll=44.64605,-63.574969&panoid=KJtHHGsyl8r8mgI2bAlXYQ&cbp=11,159.01,,0,4.61&z=17

https://maps.google.ca/maps?q=maps&hl=en&ll=44.646517,-63.572962&spn=0.000506,0.001891&sll=44.645941,-63.574877&sspn=0.004481,0.007564&t=h&hq=maps&z=19&layer=c&cbll=44.646518,-63.572963&panoid=3ZTVPqsyvCRH9RJUxAo6Yw&cbp=11,140.12,,0,0

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=halifax&hl=en&ll=44.643293,-63.576102&spn=0.000015,0.007553&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=40.460237,61.875&t=h&hnear=Halifax,+Halifax+Regional+Municipality,+Nova+Scotia,+Canada&z=17&layer=c&cbll=44.643293,-63.576102&panoid=pYMUA5-e5p8zUFFxDTmuqQ&cbp=12,15.26,,0,0

[counterfactual]

I would prefer underground links so they don't disrupt the streetscape but that is cost prohibitive in most cases. Pedways probably wouldn't be allowed if they were to block the harbour view on east-west streets.

There may be a minor argument supporting the idea that street level retail would see less traffic with multiple pedways. It is hard to imagine downtown would be better off without the link system now in place though. The pedway connecting CIBC and the Delta and the one connecting the Delta and Scotia Square would have very little impact on street level retail.

After all, we are talking about a town that can't even paint crosswalks.

CIBC to Delta: (look at the crosswalk)
https://maps.google.ca/?ll=44.649171,-63.575047&spn=0.000008,0.003782&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=44.649171,-63.575047&panoid=jW2ryHabfpAxYbgpYMsJRQ&cbp=12,67.25,,0,0

Delta to Scotia Square: (look at the crosswalk)
https://maps.google.ca/?ll=44.650321,-63.575624&spn=0.000004,0.001891&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=44.650321,-63.575624&panoid=G6jeDbgB5UaaQyHS7FAp3w&cbp=12,155.81,,0,0

And today, Dick Butts, HRM's CAO, announced measures to constrain HRM spending this year.

Can we just please spend a tiny bit of money in this G-d forsaken city and paint some crosswalks? How about some additional historic signage, so when people walk around, they actually have a sense of this city's rich history and neighbourhoods? Notice, I'm avoiding the term "heritage" simply because due to the actions of those who claim to represent heritage in this city, the term is now inextricably bound up with the politics of anti-development and view planes, rather than preserving history and memory.

Why can't a couple thousand dollars be allocated out of the budget for these simple and basic public expenditures?

[counterfactual]

Don't fear for the crosswalks. Check this intersection out (http://goo.gl/maps/5AHjd) as you land on it at this link, then press your down arrow--the image moves from April 2012 to July 2012 and voila! New crosswalk paint.

As far as pedways, not necessarily opposed, but I'm not convinced they would be preferable to simply keeping the streets free of excessive ice and snow in winter. (Maybe with that wacky heated sidewalk plan). I've never seen a pedway system that didn't seem to be removing at least some action from the streets. The PATH in Toronto is something of an exception, but it really only exists in the financial district, where there's a ridiculous crush of people anyway, mainly concerned with getting from A to B than with spending time on the street in any meaningful way. Not the same kind of environment as downtown Halifax. Both the PATH and the streets are deserted by 7 p.m.

Yeah, the PATH is a bit spooky/creepy past 7pm.

[Drybrain]

True, the city is negligent on public-realm investments like this. (I think calling it "godforsaken" is a bit much, though!)

It's also symptomatic of a standard North American disregard for the public realm, not just a Halifax problem.
A lot of the crosswalks in Toronto look like this (http://goo.gl/maps/ihr0g) or this (http://goo.gl/maps/hllZP). You can barely even tell they were painted once upon a time.

Used to live in Edmonton, and it's especially bad there too (http://goo.gl/maps/Xe4p6). But then Edmonton is extraordinarily inhospitable for pedestrians.

[counterfactual]

True, the city is negligent on public-realm investments like this. (I think calling it "godforsaken" is a bit much, though!)

It's also symptomatic of a standard North American disregard for the public realm, not just a Halifax problem.
A lot of the crosswalks in Toronto look like this (http://goo.gl/maps/ihr0g) or this (http://goo.gl/maps/hllZP). You can barely even tell they were painted once upon a time.

Used to live in Edmonton, and it's especially bad there too (http://goo.gl/maps/Xe4p6). But then Edmonton is extraordinarily inhospitable for pedestrians.

Yes, my "G-d forsaken" was hyperbole.

And yes, Edmonton is a bit of a disaster downtown, and has been so for a long time. They're starting to figure this out, however, and trying to change it, but plenty of resistance to change. Like Halifax.

Agree Toronto lags, but then at least when you walk around downtown Toronto there are some simple signs to let you know when you've entered a new community/neighbourhood. Little Italy is marked, Danforth, historic Kensington Market, Chinatown, Mirvish Village, Rathnelly, etc.

For example:
http://www.blogto.com/upload/2010/10/20101015-signs_lead.jpg

I mean, is that too complex, costly, and revolutionary for Halifax?

Sure, not much information is provided, but today, you could at least Google the neighbourhood on the spot, and learn.

[Drybrain]

Bah. You hit on one of my minor irritations about Toronto--the city is sadly ditching the acorn signs for these numbers (http://www.blogto.com/upload/2009/05/20090518-signs.jpg), largely to save money. Some will still demarcate specific neighbourhoods, but the new design is pretty meh.

Similar to the crummy new street furniture, which, to its small credit, included garbage bins with little foot pumps to open the receptacles--but the pumps are wearing out already, and trash is usually strewn everywhere since they don't close properly anymore. This Lisa Rochon piece (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/arts/toronto-street-furniture-garbage-in-garbage-out/article791965/) in the Globe actually gets at some of what we're talking about here in terms of Canada's crappy public realm, using the street furniture as an example.

Oh, Canada.

[counterfactual]

Bah. You hit on one of my minor irritations about Toronto--the city is sadly ditching the acorn signs for these numbers (http://www.blogto.com/upload/2009/05/20090518-signs.jpg), largely to save money. Some will still demarcate specific neighbourhoods, but the new design is pretty meh.

Similar to the crummy new street furniture, which, to its small credit, included garbage bins with little foot pumps to open the receptacles--but the pumps are wearing out already, and trash is usually strewn everywhere since they don't close properly anymore. This Lisa Rochon piece (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/arts/toronto-street-furniture-garbage-in-garbage-out/article791965/) in the Globe actually gets at some of what we're talking about here in terms of Canada's crappy public realm, using the street furniture as an example.

Oh, Canada.

Well, that's dumb of Toronto.

Scanned that article; wish it has some pics of the new furniture. I can imagine it's going to be cheap plastic crap.

By the way, that's a very hopeful/optimistic piece. I like how it ended. Someone email it to HRM Council and Staff... :)

[Empire]

HRM please get with the program and choose one or more options from the following:
https://www.google.ca/search?q=images+for+crosswalk+markings&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=9JbOUtjbFYvmoATe9oDoCA&ved=0CCkQsAQ&biw=1649&bih=1004

[Drybrain]

Well, that's dumb of Toronto.

Scanned that article; wish it has some pics of the new furniture. I can imagine it's going to be cheap plastic crap.

By the way, that's a very hopeful/optimistic piece. I like how it ended. Someone email it to HRM Council and Staff... :)

The street furniture has been around a few years. Here's an article (http://spacing.ca/toronto/2008/06/11/a-look-at-street-furniture-models/) from when it was first unveiled.

[Nilan8888]

Well, that's dumb of Toronto.

Actually, I generally support this move.

The pictures of those other street signs don't quite point out how small they generally are. They're not always easy to spot when driving along the busier streets. This isn't always a big deal when you're already off the main roads, but when you're on, say, the Danforth and looking at sign after sign, figuring when you need to turn off? It's pretty easy to miss one. Very nearly happened to me last Christmas Eve.

Larger signs will help against that. It's harder to get generally lost in Toronto than Halifax thanks to the simple grid system, but missing a street and then having to turn around and come back the other way feels like SUCH a bigger hassle.

[counterfactual]

Actually, I generally support this move.

The pictures of those other street signs don't quite point out how small they generally are. They're not always easy to spot when driving along the busier streets. This isn't always a big deal when you're already off the main roads, but when you're on, say, the Danforth and looking at sign after sign, figuring when you need to turn off? It's pretty easy to miss one. Very nearly happened to me last Christmas Eve.

Larger signs will help against that. It's harder to get generally lost in Toronto than Halifax thanks to the simple grid system, but missing a street and then having to turn around and come back the other way feels like SUCH a bigger hassle.

Who wants to drive around Toronto, including the Danforth? Take the Bloor line out on the TTC. :)

In all seriousness, I have no problem with bigger signs to accommodate motorists. But why get rid of the neighbourhood identifiers? Presumably, there's even more room to have that info on bigger signs. The writing can be smaller too, because it is for pedestrians.

[counterfactual]

HRM please get with the program and choose one or more options from the following:
https://www.google.ca/search?q=images+for+crosswalk+markings&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=9JbOUtjbFYvmoATe9oDoCA&ved=0CCkQsAQ&biw=1649&bih=1004

:haha::haha::haha:

[counterfactual]

The street furniture has been around a few years. Here's an article (http://spacing.ca/toronto/2008/06/11/a-look-at-street-furniture-models/) from when it was first unveiled.

To be honest, the fact that things are so bad here in terms of any kind of streetscaping, benches, and the complete lack of street furniture, as boring as these things are, I must confess: Wouldn't be bad at all to have something like this to be rolled out in Halifax... anything to brighton up some dank/rough/downtrodden spots.

[Empire]

Yes, my "G-d forsaken" was hyperbole.

And yes, Edmonton is a bit of a disaster downtown, and has been so for a long time. They're starting to figure this out, however, and trying to change it, but plenty of resistance to change. Like Halifax.

Agree Toronto lags, but then at least when you walk around downtown Toronto there are some simple signs to let you know when you've entered a new community/neighbourhood. Little Italy is marked, Danforth, historic Kensington Market, Chinatown, Mirvish Village, Rathnelly, etc.

For example:
http://www.blogto.com/upload/2010/10/20101015-signs_lead.jpg

I mean, is that too complex, costly, and revolutionary for Halifax?

Sure, not much information is provided, but today, you could at least Google the neighbourhood on the spot, and learn.

Historic signage Dartmouth Crossing:
https://maps.google.ca/?ll=44.697007,-63.566916&spn=0.000015,0.007553&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=44.696881,-63.566891&panoid=vptLvZJrKT7Mpi9y7ovKEQ&cbp=12,75.39,,3,-7.82

[fenwick16]

Construction of the Nova Centre Centre seems to be continuing steadily in spite of the winter cold spells. They seem to be finding a way to continue with the form-work and pouring concrete. The construction workers look cold though (I am glad that I can work inside).

(source: Ziobrop - http://fillingtheholehfx.tumblr.com/)
http://24.media.tumblr.com/90bfad58e4b1592b803188737d721f94/tumblr_mz6w2hck4Z1sjmgsso1_1280.jpg

[counterfactual]

Historic signage Dartmouth Crossing:
https://maps.google.ca/?ll=44.697007,-63.566916&spn=0.000015,0.007553&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=44.696881,-63.566891&panoid=vptLvZJrKT7Mpi9y7ovKEQ&cbp=12,75.39,,3,-7.82

Of all places, the signage is done in Dartmouth Crossing.

[fenwick16]

Perhaps Councilor Waye Mason has some information on the progress of the amendments for the Nova Centre (or if amendments will even be required?). My possibly mistaken impression was that the amendments were required to close Grafton to vehicular traffic(?) However, it is being left open to pedestrian traffic so are amendments really required?