Robson Square Renovations

[jlousa]

Thank god for unanswered prayers is all I can say.

[Rusty Gull]

Itinerant made a good point. Why didn't the VAG just expand into the rest of Robson Square (we can find a new home for UBC). Then find a way to connect the underground to the Canada Line, and we would have a true downtown centre experience. As is, Robson Square is a patchwork of distinct experiences - the quiet underground, the law courts, the VAG, and the vagrants on the steps.

[SpikePhanta]

I hate how now when walking past robson square due to construction i pass those goths smoking pot. I detest that smell, and I can't wait when the goths are gone to a new place.


Sponge I like your idea there.
Also what about moving UBC to International Village and freeing up the square once again?

Put some fancy store down there to attract the crowds(where UBC is now)

(Imagine an Apple Store or some highend retailer down there XD)

[paradigm4]

Cornelia was on Global News tonight lamenting the removal of the lush greenery from "the mound". Worst part? The reporter claims that "many passers-by" missed the trees! Gosh I wonder how many had ever even used the deplorable and sketchy public space! Typical MSM crap journalism.

[mr.x]

I hate how now when walking past robson square due to construction i pass those goths smoking pot. I detest that smell, and I can't wait when the goths are gone to a new place.


Sponge I like your idea there.
Also what about moving UBC to International Village and freeing up the square once again?

Put some fancy store down there to attract the crowds(where UBC is now)

(Imagine an Apple Store or some highend retailer down there XD)

lolll...I would prefer seeing the UBC Robson campus converted into expansion space for the VAG or the future museum that will take over the old courthouse building.

And given that UBC Robson Square is mainly a campus for the Sauder School of Business, don't bet on a move to International Village. Sauder would want to keep their central location, close/in the CBD.

[mr.x]

What's up with this city and its love affair with mounds/knolls? (see the UBC student activist love affair with the knoll by the SUB)

I'd like to see the mound permanently flattened for a big open plaza that overlooks the Robson Square ice rink on its east perimeter.



Cornelia was on Global News tonight lamenting the removal of the lush greenery from "the mound". Worst part? The reporter claims that "many passers-by" missed the trees! Gosh I wonder how many had ever even used the deplorable and sketchy public space! Typical MSM crap journalism.

I also don't understand the love affair with Erickson's piece of shit (may he rest in peace). Why are they so apprehensive to change?

These reports remind me of all the negative reports the local news made, particularly CTV a block away, about the glass/wood clam shell shaped roof over the Robson Square ice rink plaza....and that effectively killed the whole plan, all we got were replacement and slightly larger glass domes.

[SpongeG]

i think it has to be raised cause iots the parking entrance isn't it?

otherwise i agree flatten the sucker one big open space

[huenthar]

Step 1 for me is still to close down Robson Street on that block permanently, make the road into an open plaza.

[johnjimbc]

I walked up into that space exactly once and found nothing to entice me to linger. It was really uninviting. The VAG art gallery cafe feels just as green from simple potted flowers and plants. Yet from there you get this great vista of the plaza. The mound had no views. Frankly, it just made me feel kinda icky,wondering if I ought to be concerned for my safety and thinking if anyone encountered me there, they'd be eying me warily out of concern for their own.

I remember there was a space in heart of DC that was kind of the same effect, only there it was a "sunken" water garden right near Pennsylvania Avenue. You're sitting is this grand part of town with parks, trees, greenery and urban vistas, yet the design was intended for you to slink down below ground level to a marshy (and also overgrown) garden. I ventured there exactly once as well, waking down and right back up.

Neither spaces was exactly a home run on the "Isn't this nice!" scale.

Someone else asked my question on the previous page . . . Does BC ever plan to turn back on the fountains?

I know they had to redo all the linings and all, but that work is all done now on that portion (I think).

Seeing those fountains of water thundering down really cemented my impression of the plaza when I first visited Vancouver. I was like, "Wow, a river downtown. How cool!"

It's felt lacking ever since to me. I had so hoped they'd turn them on for the Olympics.

[BCPhil]

What's up with this city and its love affair with mounds/knolls? (see the UBC student activist love affair with the knoll by the SUB)

I'd like to see the mound permanently flattened for a big open plaza that overlooks the Robson Square ice rink on its east perimeter.





I also don't understand the love affair with Erickson's piece of shit (may he rest in peace). Why are they so apprehensive to change?

These reports remind me of all the negative reports the local news made, particularly CTV a block away, about the glass/wood clam shell shaped roof over the Robson Square ice rink plaza....and that effectively killed the whole plan, all we got were replacement and slightly larger glass domes.

I think the Knoll is there for structural reasons. The Parking is right there, and I think there is a hallway inside it leading from the Courthouse to the UBC section.

There already is a flat section along the side of the skating rink pit where you can look down onto it (I watched many a band during the Olympics from up there). Without the trees and buses it would make that walkway feel much wider and open, and from the top of the knoll you might actually be able to see down into the Square if the overgrown jungle wasn't in the way.

I too would like to see UBC moved and the space go to the Art Gallery or whatever future establishment moves in. Personally, I would like to see UBC moved to the Sinclair Center and have the Government Offices moved over closer to the Library and Post Office, creating a bit of a federal district over there (Post Office, offices, passports, and the CBC all close to each other). I don't see why the drab, horrible, passport office needs to be in one of the nicest, most elegant buildings in the city. Plus having the UBC school for business in the Financial district as apposed to being connected to the law courts seems to make a lot more sense.

[trofirhen]

I too would like to see UBC moved and the space go to the Art Gallery or whatever future establishment moves in. Personally, I would like to see UBC moved to the Sinclair Center and have the Government Offices moved over closer to the Library and Post Office, creating a bit of a federal district over there (Post Office, offices, passports, and the CBC all close to each other). I don't see why the drab, horrible, passport office needs to be in one of the nicest, most elegant buildings in the city. Plus having the UBC school for business in the Financial district as apposed to being connected to the law courts seems to make a lot more sense.

I think your ideas are all great, practical, feasible, and make a whole load of sense. I hope someone in office or planning reads your post and takes to the ideas. :yes:

[mr.x]

Moving the UBC downtown campus to Sinclair Centre is a great idea....that place is incredibly underused.

[SpongeG]

just move UBC to the upper levels of sears

[officedweller]

Good point about the parking entrance. Isn't the Driver's Licence office there?

Pic by me today:

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/94/imgp0105e.jpg (http://img189.imageshack.us/i/imgp0105e.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

[SpongeG]

yes it is there motor vehicles office

[SpikePhanta]

I think a elevated mini-plaza would work, perfect during sunny days eating lunch looking around.
It would sortha remind me of the mini park area in montreal next to the EA Montreal/Via Rail offices across the street from the Queen Elizabeth Hotel

[hrhsheba]

The motor licensing office moved to the Royal Centre Mall about two years ago. There was a Korean Trade Commission office in the space for a few months but I think it may be empty now.

[trofirhen]

I think a elevated mini-plaza would work, perfect during sunny days eating lunch looking around.
It would sortha remind me of the mini park area in montreal next to the EA Montreal/Via Rail offices across the street from the Queen Elizabeth Hotel

I agree that a mini-mound would work. Almost like a mini-park. Something lower than before, more open, with just a couple of large trees, like scotch pines, or arbutus, and maybe a couple of rhododendrons. All lit up at night. Accessible. Open. Refreshing and inviting, with no junkies, shooter-uppers, and scurrying rats.

[officedweller]

Thanks - didn't know that the MV office had moved.

[trofirhen]

Just a suggestion, for all of you who have a problem with Robson Square; rather than thinking of the Square in bits and pieces, try thinking of it as including the Rattenbury building. Otherwise stated, holistically. That way, what happens in the rattenbury building, (currently the VAG) will spill into and around Robson Square giving it more life. Additionally, the dark, sombre, and unkempt brown-grass square on Georgia Street will get caught up in it, too, and be part of the potentially magnificent "front entrance" to the entire complex.

There are hurdles to be overcome, like perhaps removing part of (or all of) the UBC Robson square campus, and replacing it with a more crowd-pleasing function or functions, but this IS, like it or not, the HEART of the city, both psychologically and physically.

We can let it limp along and complain about it, or take it by the horns and make it a classy, dynamic, charismatic meeting place that will appeal to all ages and tastes. This requires co-operation, conciliation, and above all, a bold vision of what could happen there. And that's plenty, if we have the will and imagination to make it happen.

[SpongeG]

there is no unkempt brown grass on georgias street - its been removed and replaced with cedar chips

[ozonemania]

there is no unkempt brown grass on georgias street - its been removed and replaced with cedar chipsI think it was more like, the grass was unkempt brown until the Olympics. The city covered the half-dead lawn with cedar chips and just never removed it afterwards.

[teriyaki]

A knoll would work great. Now we have place to move the UBC knoll to since thats going to get bulldozed:haha:

[officedweller]

Some of the Rhodos being lifted by crane from the knoll to containers.

Pic by me today:

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/569/imgp1515e.jpg (http://img204.imageshack.us/i/imgp1515e.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

[officedweller]

The canopy over the south end of the sunken plaza (installed for the Olympics) has been removed. Just the steel frame remains - so presumably the whole sructure is coming down soon.

[SpongeG]

about time

[SpikePhanta]

But I liked the canopy :(

[jsbertram]

so how is the downtown traffic coping with Robson St being closed off at Robson Square for the work that's being done on that block?

[SpongeG]

its crap during the rush been stuck a few times because of it

[huenthar]

That's too bad. It'd be great for the square if that block of Robson was closed permanently. I hope traffic would be able to adjust somehow.

[SpongeG]

getting anywhere in vancouver during the day is sucky at best - i just park by city hall and catch the canada line if i have to do anything downtown during the day

[trofirhen]

I wonder what will take place of the knoll? It was a nice idea in theory, but in reality it just didn't work. I sure hope they leave some greenery there - with something that hopefully will remain green all year round, like laurel, arbutus, or such.

[officedweller]

According to the newspaper, it'll be reconstructed to its original design.

[SpongeG]

hopefully with less trees

[officedweller]

Pic by me today:

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/4277/imgp0167y.jpg (http://img268.imageshack.us/i/imgp0167y.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/1600/imgp0166a.jpg (http://img31.imageshack.us/i/imgp0166a.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

[trofirhen]

Hmmmmmmmm, interesting. OMG, the pagodas are still there. :yuck:

[red-paladin]

... They're probably on the heritage list by now :(

[Conrad]

Robson Square is lame. Who thought that an underground public space would be appealing to anyone? People want to be at street level where the activity is, not underneath a street surrounded by dark, empty storefronts. Yes, please get rid of those hideous canopy/pagoda thingies, along with the matching smoked glass awnings that surround the lower area. '70s hell.

[SpongeG]

there was a lot of people dancing down there on friday night

[Conrad]

True, but those break dancing kids are always there. I dunno, the place feels like such a buzz kill to me. A glorified underpass. Hopefully the space will be more enticing when they're done with it.

[trofirhen]

True, but those break dancing kids are always there. I dunno, the place feels like such a buzz kill to me. A glorified underpass. Hopefully the space will be more enticing when they're done with it.

As I have mentioned on this thread before, way back when Robson Square was finished in 1979, the lower portion was designed to be the (theoretically) future entrance - exit to a (very much theoretical) subway/rrt station. Erickson had in mind shoppers and commuters scurrying to and fro, and the below-street-level aspect gave (theoretically) a chance for a "mini-village" of sorts.

We all know it didn't work out that way, but that is what was intended back then, more or less.

[jsbertram]

As I have mentioned on this thread before, way back when Robson Square was finished in 1979, the lower portion was designed to be the (theoretically) future entrance - exit to a (very much theoretical) subway/rrt station. Erickson had in mind shoppers and commuters scurrying to and fro, and the below-street-level aspect gave (theoretically) a chance for a "mini-village" of sorts.

We all know it didn't work out that way, but that is what was intended back then, more or less.

The east-west subway under Robson (from BC Place to Stanly Park) was one of the plans, but is now unlikely because SkyTrain is running under Dunsmuir instead.

If the Canada line was run under Howe instead of Granville, the area where the hockey rink sits could have been the west entrance to the SkyTrain station mezzanine under Robson/Howe. Another opportunity lost for another generation.

Perhaps by 2050 the downtown streetcars will have been expanded to include a Robson Street tunnel from BC Place to Stanley Park.

[officedweller]

The east-west subway under Robson (from BC Place to Stanly Park) was one of the plans, but is now unlikely because SkyTrain is running under Dunsmuir instead.

If the Canada line was run under Howe instead of Granville, the area where the hockey rink sits could have been the west entrance to the SkyTrain station mezzanine under Robson/Howe. Another opportunity lost for another generation.

Perhaps by 2050 the downtown streetcars will have been expanded to include a Robson Street tunnel from BC Place to Stanley Park.

A Howe Steet allignment for the Canada Line or other "future" (back in the 1970s) rapid transit lie would not have been possible at shallow depth due to the Howe Street tunnel. Likewise, as east-west line under Robson wouldn't be possible at shallow depth for the same reason.

The Rapid Transit line envisioned in the 1970s would likely have been under Hornby Street - as shown on the 1975 map below (maybe as a "premetro" rather than a streetcar; it says "LRT" on the trestle) discussed here:

http://regardingplace.com/?p=8157=1

http://regardingplace.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/calimente_transitservicemap_1975_large.jpg

[SpikePhanta]

A Howe Steet allignment for the Canada Line or other "future" (back in the 1970s) rapid transit lie would not have been possible at shallow depth due to the Howe Street tunnel. Likewise, as east-west line under Robson wouldn't be possible at shallow depth for the same reason.

The Rapid Transit line envisioned in the 1970s would likely have been under Hornby Street - as shown on the 1975 map below (maybe as a "premetro" rather than a streetcar; it says "LRT" on the trestle) discussed here:



Isn't the VAG storage in tunnels under hornby?

[Conrad]

As I have mentioned on this thread before, way back when Robson Square was finished in 1979, the lower portion was designed to be the (theoretically) future entrance - exit to a (very much theoretical) subway/rrt station. Erickson had in mind shoppers and commuters scurrying to and fro, and the below-street-level aspect gave (theoretically) a chance for a "mini-village" of sorts.

We all know it didn't work out that way, but that is what was intended back then, more or less.

Interesting. I wasn't aware of that. Thanks for the background :) I totally understand why it was designed like that now. It certainly would be a great hub of activity if a subway station was there.

[jsbertram]

Isn't the VAG storage in tunnels under hornby?

I doubt the city would allow something like that to be built under the street, since that is outside the VAGs property line.

I can see the VAG could have built whatever they wanted under the grass of their property right up to their property line during the major renovation when the Robson Square was built in the 70s. Its my recollection that the 'storage areas' of the VAG are the barely renovated jail cells in the basement because this building started its life as a courthouse.

[SpikePhanta]

I doubt the city would allow something like that to be built under the street, since that is outside the VAGs property line.

I can see the VAG could have built whatever they wanted under the grass of their property right up to their property line during the major renovation when the Robson Square was built in the 70s. Its my recollection that the 'storage areas' of the VAG are the barely renovated jail cells in the basement because this building started its life as a courthouse.
nevermind I mistaken hornby with Howe, howe st. is the one with the tunnels.
from between Georgia and dunsmuir south until between Nelson and Smithe

[officedweller]

Apparently the VAG has storage vaults under the Georgia Street plaza/"lawn".

**********

BTW - the set of "stramps" (stair/ramps) at the south end of the sunken plaza are being demolished so that the membrane underneath can be replaced.
They'll be rebuilt afterwards (the upper levels of stramps have already been removed and replaced (a couple of years ago).

[officedweller]

Ongoing reno pics by me today - you can see the structure (what for?) under the "knoll" and the removal of the steps on the stramps:

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/3725/imgp1517n.jpg (http://img20.imageshack.us/i/imgp1517n.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/1102/imgp1518.jpg (http://img215.imageshack.us/i/imgp1518.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

[trofirhen]

Hmmmmmmmmmm ...... What exactly DO they have in mind for those stairs, anyway? I mean, what final effect are they trying for? Any ideas?

[itinerant]

I recall the stramps were redone only recently. Is this a situation where Robson Square is being redone TWICE due to timing constraints imposed by the Olympics..?

[officedweller]

Only the upper two tiers of stramps were redone. The third lower tier wasn't redone at the time.
The restoration is being done in phases and the lower stramps are part of the current phase.

Hmmmmmmmmmm ...... What exactly DO they have in mind for those stairs, anyway? I mean, what final effect are they trying for? Any ideas?

They are replacing the membrane. (How many times do we have to say this?)
They'll look the same after the membrane is replaced - just with newer concrete.

[itinerant]

Appreciate the clarification. Just seems it is a long, long job. So you'll forgive me if my memory lapses in between phases.

Being a membrane replacement, do we know if the new membrane will offer improvements over the old--or is this simply a re-installation of the same technology that may be intended to last another 30 years?

[officedweller]

No idea as to whether it'll be new technology - but the old technology seems to have lasted for 35 years - not too shabby.

Pic by me today - canopy going up to protect the installation from the direct sun:

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/5023/imgp1519.jpg (http://img59.imageshack.us/i/imgp1519.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

[huenthar]

Interesting. I wasn't aware of that. Thanks for the background :) I totally understand why it was designed like that now. It certainly would be a great hub of activity if a subway station was there.

I still think this should be possible. Buy out a little strip of the underground Sears level on the south side, convert it into a glassed-off corridor, with a door into Sears open during business hours, connect it with an expanded Robson entrance to the Canada line at one end, under the street to Robson Square at the other end.

[trofirhen]

I still think this should be possible. Buy out a little strip of the underground Sears level on the south side, convert it into a glassed-off corridor, with a door into Sears open during business hours, connect it with an expanded Robson entrance to the Canada line at one end, under the street to Robson Square at the other end.

Thank you for ther positive feedback on this, and the constructive idea. I'm a big promoter of upgrading Robson Square, in a manner such as you suggest, huenthar, and get sick of all the negativity that has been swirling around it.

The Square has great potential, if only people are willing to use their imaginations positively, as you have done here. :)

[Zassk]

I still think this should be possible. Buy out a little strip of the underground Sears level on the south side, convert it into a glassed-off corridor, with a door into Sears open during business hours, connect it with an expanded Robson entrance to the Canada line at one end, under the street to Robson Square at the other end.

But the Howe St. tunnel is an impassable barrier preventing an underground connection between Sears and Robson Square, from what I understand. Robson Square could only be connected with subway lines that are west of Howe St.

[SpikePhanta]

But the Howe St. tunnel is an impassable barrier preventing an underground connection between Sears and Robson Square, from what I understand. Robson Square could only be connected with subway lines that are west of Howe St.

Maybe that could change once the VAG move to their new location...

[SpongeG]

you still have to get past the tunnel

its a huge expense and waste of money - put that money into the UBC extension first

[officedweller]

The Howe Street tunnel contains the loading docks for all of Pacific Centre, Sears and Robson Square Complex (i.e. Law Courts, Art Gallery, UBC, etc.).

Ever wonder why there aren't trucks lined up around Pacific Centre unloading merchandise?

[Zassk]

Maybe that could change once the VAG move to their new location...

The VAG is immaterial to the Howe St. tunnel...

[trofirhen]

I still think this should be possible. Buy out a little strip of the underground Sears level on the south side, convert it into a glassed-off corridor, with a door into Sears open during business hours, connect it with an expanded Robson entrance to the Canada line at one end, under the street to Robson Square at the other end.

But the Howe St. tunnel is an impassable barrier preventing an underground connection between Sears and Robson Square, from what I understand. Robson Square could only be connected with subway lines that are west of Howe St.

you still have to get past the tunnel

its a huge expense and waste of money - put that money into the UBC extension first

The Howe Street tunnel contains the loading docks for all of Pacific Centre, Sears and Robson Square Complex (i.e. Law Courts, Art Gallery, UBC, etc.).

Ever wonder why there aren't trucks lined up around Pacific Centre unloading merchandise?
:previous:
To gain pedestrian access from Robson Square under Howe Street, to the Pacific Centre, and Canada Line, the Howe Street Tunnel blocks the way.

However, it apparently is not built ultra-deep (when thinking of "ultra deep" think of the escalators at Granville Station to the Expo/ Millenium Line).

It might be logical, in that event, to build a deep-level escalator from the sunken courtyard at Robson Square down to a passage UNDER the Howe Street Tunnel, and come up again under the Pacific Centre and to the Canada Line.

We can't take the Howe Street tunnel away, but perhaps we could circumnavigate it by going down, under it, the back up. It really means deep escalators, such as those on many London Underground Stations (Green Park Jubilee Line, Piccadilly Circus Piccadilly Line, etc ....)

But perhaps it merits consideration.

[SpongeG]

why throw money away on a useless tunnel?

robson square will never be anything! we know that most people aren't going to care about it cause no one cares about it now - if asked where to go - hey lets go hang out at the convention centre or robson squre or english bay beach i am pretty sure robson square will get no votes

you could get mickey mouse to hand out loonies there and people still wouldn't want to hang out there - you could even put two starbucks down there and Forever 21 and people wouldn't wanna go

[SpikePhanta]

why throw money away on a useless tunnel?

robson square will never be anything! we know that most people aren't going to care about it cause no one cares about it now - if asked where to go - hey lets go hang out at the convention centre or robson squre or english bay beach i am pretty sure robson square will get no votes

you could get mickey mouse to hand out loonies there and people still wouldn't want to hang out there - you could even put two starbucks down there and Forever 21 and people wouldn't wanna go

haha I bet people would go if you put Forever 21, it will be the only one downtown.

[trofirhen]

Regarding the renovation of Robson Square, someone else at the Sun thinks so, too ........................


Robson Square requires revamp
It's leaky, but it's Vancouver's civic square
By Miro Cernetig, Vancouver Sun March 8, 2010

Arthur Erickson died nearly a year before the Olympics took place. But during the Games, one of his architectural masterpieces came to life in Vancouver.

I'm talking about Robson Square, the complex that includes the Vancouver Art Gallery, the revamped skating rink and the glass edifice of law courts that Erickson built in the heart of downtown Vancouver.

The great architect doesn't always get his due here in his hometown.

Robson Square's rooftop waterfalls have sometimes leaked and are often turned off. The skating rink was shut down for years. The current provincial government even thought of covering the square with a massive wooden roof -- the clam -- that would have pretty much desecrated Erickson's vision.

But the Olympics have offered a moment to appreciate what Erickson created.

For 17 days, hundreds of thousands of people gathered at Robson Square, day and night, for music, fireworks and perhaps a run on the zip line. People lined up for hours to get into the art gallery. The skating rink, rebuilt by General Electric, was packed.

The Olympics left no doubt: Robson Square is the centre of gravity for Vancouver, a natural civic square that's been right under our noses.

"The Olympics proves Robson Square is the centre of Vancouver," says Cornelia Oberlander, the internationally renowned landscape architect who worked closely with Erickson. "It should be given significant building status and should be declared a heritage site."

You'd think Oberlander would be happy about the square and its success. But actually she's horrified about the next plan for Robson Square that some see as a fait accompli: Moving the Vancouver Art Gallery out to another location, likely an old bus depot near the Queen Elizabeth Theatre.

Why on earth, Oberlander asks, would we want to move the VAG out of Robson Square into a new building that will cost upwards of $300 million?

The argument has been the VAG is too small and outdated a building to compete with international galleries. Yet during the Olympics it attracted roughly 100,000 people who wanted to tour its permanent collection and see the exhibition of Leonardo da Vinci's anatomical drawings, brought in from the Queen's collection.

Put another way, the good old VAG easily handled what is likely to be the biggest crowd it will ever face in our lifetime. Is it really too small?

In his later years, Erickson apparently felt much the same trepidation over talk about moving the VAG out of Robson Square.

Oberlander says Erickson even had developed another idea that would give the gallery more exhibition space without necessitating a move. He proposed excavating beneath the public square at the front of the gallery, on Georgia Street, and creating subterranean exhibition halls for major exhibits.

Oberlander says Erickson's idea involved using glass to enclose part of the gallery and the square, something that's been done at European museums looking to update older buildings.

Bing Thom, the Vancouver architect who is one of Erickson's proteges, agrees. Adding space beneath the gallery would be cheaper than moving out, he estimates. As well, Thom believes an expanded VAG would make Robson Square even more of a magnet for the public.

Says Thom: "The whole idea of moving the Vancouver Art Gallery needs to be looked at again. The Olympics proved that Robson Square may be the most valuable, most exciting real estate in Canada. Arthur believed his expansion plan would work. I do too."

A big question about any relocation of the VAG should be its economic wisdom.

I've written in the past that a major gallery should be built, to put Vancouver on the art world's map. Maybe some day. But can we really find the money today?

Even as the economy boomed, the VAG was unable to raise any serious endowment for a new building. Yes, the provincial government has kicked in $50 million. But that leaves about $250 million or more to go in a very tough economy.

There are other dangers, too, if we don't take a pause and think this through.

If a hasty decision is made to move the VAG, and a new tenant is picked for the vacated space, the public's assumption will be that Vancouver will get a spectacular new edifice for public art as a replacement. But what if fundraising flags? You can bet there will be immense pressure to scale down the vision of that new gallery. We may not get the signature building we thought and the old one will be spoken for.

Before anyone lets the VAG move, the other question that needs to be asked is who will fill the old building? Will a vacated VAG remain a public space?

Or will it be nabbed by provincial court judges seeking new office space, the University of B. C or another office-hungry provincial agency?

We're at a crossroads on this. It's probably time for a collective pause.

Isn't the lesson from those 17 days of the Olympics that we should be looking at how we enhance Robson Square now that it has essentially been rediscovered?

Why not open up a public debate about expanding the current art gallery on site, as Erickson suggested?

While we're at it, let's ensure the skating rink stays open in future years. (General Electric, wowed by the rink's success, is now looking at partnering with the province to make that happen.)

And why not close Robson Street between Howe and Hornby on weekends and bring in a farmers' market for all those urbanites filling up our downtown condos?

One of Vancouver's Olympic legacies is that we've been reminded we've got an under-used architectural gem in the middle of the city. There needs to be an inclusive conversation about how to embrace it and preserve it.

mcernetig@vancouversun.com

© Copyright (c) The Vancouver Sun



http://www.vancouversun.com/travel/Robson+Square+requires+revamp/2653757/story.html

[SpongeG]

pic from today by me

http://a.imageshack.us/img339/500/dsc00464b.jpg

[trofirhen]

:previous: Thank you for that. Hmmmmmmmm. I wonder what it is that they're doing exactly? .....................

[SpongeG]

redoing the membrane and returning it to what it was already

[jlousa]

Umm I think they are redoing the membrane like has been posting a few times already.:tup:

[trofirhen]

Umm I think they are redoing the membrane like has been posting a few times already.:tup:

Ummmm; of course. I had forgotten.

[trofirhen]

On The Georgia thread, the topics are wavering toward Robson Square once again.

I ask my fellow citizens, and I AM a Vancouverite, although living overseas, what positive, creative, changes could be brought to Robson Square?

Do you want to blow it up and fill it with a supertall? (That was the plan under the government of William Andrew Cecil Bennett).

Or harness it in such a way that it becomes more accessible, brighter, more versatile, and a venue for activities, the way it was supposed to be when completed in 1979?

Please consider it. Presently, there are two options; leave it much as it is (or possibly bulldozed), ... or .... revitalized, connected, lit up.

This requires creative thinking, but this square plays a more significant role than people appreciate, due to its location, right downtown in the city centre.

[SpongeG]

its used - UBC is using it, every weekend there are people dancing down there, once winter comes the rink will be back in use

there are always old men sitting playing chess

there are always people smoking pot and there are enough rats to make a theme park

personally i can think of 100 other places i'd rather go than there, and i am sure most vancouverites agree, kits beach, english bay, coal harbour, the convention centre are much more interesting vibrant places and attract 1000's every day and night

[trofirhen]

its used - UBC is using it, every weekend there are people dancing down there, once winter comes the rink will be back in use

there are always old men sitting playing chess

there are always people smoking pot and there are enough rats to make a theme park

personally i can think of 100 other places i'd rather go than there, and i am sure most vancouverites agree, kits beach, english bay, coal harbour, the convention centre are much more interesting vibrant places and attract 1000's every day and night

I haven't been there in yars, and I'm sure what you say is true. As such I'd avoid it, too.

It's a real shame, because Robson Square exuded so much potential when it was opened in 1979. And of course, downtown was smaller and less developed then, so the Square made a bigger impact.

That it has been allowed to decay the way it has is a tragedy, and a travesty to the "nerve centre" of downtown that Arthur Erickson had envisioned.

I had hoped that people might sense the potential and come up withe some proactively creative ideas to bring it to live. these could be big ideas, or small improvements. Unfortunately, most people seem content to let it stay as is, a potentially great space gone rotten. C'est la guerre.

[Zassk]

With the N-S subway having bypassed Robson Square, my opinion is that the square has failed to meet Erikson's vision and will never meet it. The current configuration only made sense if there was a major underground facility with a constant stream of people going in and out of it. I would prefer that we started from scratch. Maybe when Sears is replaced...

[thenorthofvan]

I haven't been there in yars, and I'm sure what you say is true. As such I'd avoid it, too.

It's a real shame, because Robson Square exuded so much potential when it was opened in 1979. And of course, downtown was smaller and less developed then, so the Square made a bigger impact.

That it has been allowed to decay the way it has is a tragedy, and a travesty to the "nerve centre" of downtown that Arthur Erickson had envisioned.

I had hoped that people might sense the potential and come up withe some proactively creative ideas to bring it to live. these could be big ideas, or small improvements. Unfortunately, most people seem content to let it stay as is, a potentially great space gone rotten. C'est la guerre.

unfortunately most people would rather hang out near the ocean/seawall/beach instead of some concrete tunnel in the middle of downtown. and i dont blame them.

[big T]

Trofirhen, since you're in Paris -- you know what Robson Square first reminded me o when I discovered it? Le trou des Halles.
And I'm using the term "discovered" deliberately -- I think it took me two month to even notice there was something buried there. Not at all obvious from the street level.
The space is totally self-contained, offers no views of the city to speak of and has little in the way of making it a destination in its own right. Substantial parts of it are not properly sheltered from the elements which, in Vancouver, is just bad design. It's essentially a dark, ill-accessible space.

From the article you quoted, I think the farmers market is a brilliant idea. The trick would be to attract people to that stretch of Robson in the first place, then make the square more accessible, visible and compelling for the crowds. I'm still unsure about the compelling part -- any suggestions?

[SpikePhanta]

Put in a Apple Flagship then BAM, tons of people, jkjk

Wouldn't mind if the connected bottom of sears with the place and put some retail down there..

[ozonemania]

I'm not too keen on the farmer's market idea... unless you're a downtown resident, are you going to go downtown to buy vegetables? Granville Island is so close, I would think anyone outside of the core would hoof it over there instead if they really wanted.

Robson Square needs a market element for sure if it's to be a popular place to go. Unless they are truly iconic, a public square doesn't attract people just because it's a public space.

A bigger draw for me would be a concentration of Street Food. Many cities around the world feature an 'eat street' with a changing array of street food vendors.

[SpongeG]

there is already a farmers market at nelson park and its very popular with residents plus the one in gas town and theres a couple more in east van - adding more will only thin out the thriving existing ones

west end farmers market
http://media.venturevancouver.com/west-end-farmers-market-blog-large.jpg
media.venturevancouver.com

http://www.wera.bc.ca/nucleus3.2/media/4/20050618-farmersmarket.jpg
www.wera.bc.ca

[BCPhil]

I'm not too keen on the farmer's market idea... unless you're a downtown resident, are you going to go downtown to buy vegetables? Granville Island is so close, I would think anyone outside of the core would hoof it over there instead if they really wanted.

Robson Square needs a market element for sure if it's to be a popular place to go. Unless they are truly iconic, a public square doesn't attract people just because it's a public space.

A bigger draw for me would be a concentration of Street Food. Many cities around the world feature an 'eat street' with a changing array of street food vendors.

Yeah, I think if they made where the garden is (where they are doing the membrane work) more of a grassy hill/knoll where people can sit, Robson Square would be a great place to have an outdoor summer food fair. Something with a lot of flavors from the many different ethnic cuisines we have in the lower mainland. A lot of square around the world have cafes or at least tables and chairs, but I would like to see the square have the west coast feeling of having to find place for your butt on the ground, either on the many steps, or a grassy area.

I also think it might be good to have the street above opened to buses only and have all traffic turn off Robson on to Howe and Hornby.

I think the area can do better this winter if the skating rink is opened again. I can see that being a good draw on a Friday night and all weekend; as long as they keep it friendly feeling: more like a good place to bring a date or your kids and less like a good place to drink on skates.

[trofirhen]

:previous:
To the above posters: yes, you all have valid points of view, and I can see why the Square does not have the appeal it was meant to have in the first place.

One problem is the sunken part of the square. In fact, I think that may be THE biggest thing going against it. It's hard to notice, and is limited in regards to the activities it can lend itself to.

In addition, along the walls of the subterranean area, are the entrances to the UBC offices, and a few other amenities. So to fill all that in to bring it to street grade is enormously expensive and problematic, engineeringwise.

What to do? How to use that area? I do not have the answer, and I'm not expecting one from anyone else. However .... I think that rather than negativistically writing it off as a rat-hole is the wrong approach.

If people write it off as a hang-out for losers and wharf rats, it will STAY a hang-out for losers and wharf rats: rather a self-fulfilling prophecy.

My only statement at this point is a tentaitve series of suggestions:

1: Light it up as much as possible. Take out that knoll if you want,
but hopefully leave some greenspace down there. Maybe a scotch pine
or two.

2: The farmer's market is out. As someone rightly stated, adding one down
there will only dilute the existing one.

3: Schedule in some of what has already proven successful, for the time
being anyway: salsa dancing and the like.

4: Possibly ... try bringing back one or two of the classy eateries they once
had there, like the Mozart Konditorei.

5: Tunnels (aaarrgh, I can hear you all...) put one connecting the Square
under Georgia to the new Georgia, that will perhaps in turn hook up with
Pacific Centre / Royal Centre (who knows at this point). This AT LEAST
would give more accessibility to the Square, and would remove that "vacant,
disconnected, pit" feeling that it now has.


Remember that, like it or not, Robson Square will probably be around for quite a while, unless the use that sunken site for a supertall or such. Given that, it is good to TRY not to dismiss it negativistically, but to TRY and think PROACTIVELY about possible uses and improvements for it.

Those improvements would come in the form of activities. The real problem is that in a relatively small city like Vancouver, it is difficult to have crowd-drawing activities most of the time, so how do you get around that "dark, empty, druggie, rat-hole" aspect???

If enough people who DO care about not only Robson Square, but the ambience and quality of the city centre ('cause that's where it is folks, like it or not), then someone will come up with ideas that will work. Not perfect ideas. Not the ultimate solution. But something that will take what was meant to be a vital nerve centre, got bypassed, went downhill and is now on life-support, and bring it back to life to get it walking and talking again.

Thank you all for your time.

[SpongeG]

why are you so obsessed with it?

People who want to use are using it

there are always people on the stairs hanging out, always people dancing on the rink surface, in the winter the rink will open again and people will use it

UBC is using it and other things use it

like i say nothing is going to make me or most people choose it over english bay or coal harbour - i don't know when you were last in vancouver but coal harbour is amazing, its got cafes & restaurants and more restaurants coming at the convention centre, a water park, people watching, community centre, water planes and boats to watch, always full of people and 1000 times more appealing than robson square will ever be no matter what they do to it

Vancouver is about the outdoors not the downtown

[SpongeG]

and hopefully the work going on will limit the trees - because there was a nice seating are up there but it was always used by people doing drugs or taking a piss and the rats omg tons of rats

but apparently they want to return the "west coast" feel with all the trees and crap

[trofirhen]

why are you so obsessed with it?

People who want to use are using it

there are always people on the stairs hanging out, always people dancing on the rink surface, in the winter the rink will open again and people will use it

UBC is using it and other things use it

like i say nothing is going to make me or most people choose it over english bay or coal harbour - i don't know when you were last in vancouver but coal harbour is amazing, its got cafes & restaurants and more restaurants coming at the convention centre, a water park, people watching, community centre, water planes and boats to watch, always full of people and 1000 times more appealing than robson square will ever be no matter what they do to it

Vancouver is about the outdoors not the downtown

and hopefully the work going on will limit the trees - because there was a nice seating are up there but it was always used by people doing drugs or taking a piss and the rats omg tons of rats

but apparently they want to return the "west coast" feel with all the trees and crap

I hear ya, especially about Vancouver being outdoor-oriented. I think that it's the CENTRAL location of the square that makes it pursuitworthy. If it were over at Broadway and Cambie, I couldn't give a rat's ass. (well, almost, anyway !!!)

[SpongeG]

i'm not against the place but it would be public money needed to do anything (i think) so its a huge waste that people would rightfully freak out about spending especially now

[The Lonely Tanner]

Zip Line.

No one would really choose to relax at Robson square over Kits or English Bay or the Convention Centre, but with it's skating rink, they might go there for an activity.

Bring back the zip-line, turn the front of the museum into a dance square (or Tai Chi park...), and maybe put up a rock wall on the side of Sears.

Now that would be Vancouverism. I'd visit Robson square for that.

[jsbertram]

I was asked over the weekend (by an out-of-towner) why there isn't a Community Centre near Robson/Granville. His reasoning was that with all the new condos in the area -meaning more people living there- do they have use the existing Community Centres on Denman, Coal Harbour, or Yaletown?

Which got me wondering if there is a sufficient population in the area to have the ex-restaurant spaces in Robson Square reused as a Community Centre. I know there isn't room for a full Gym &tc, but perhaps all that is needed is to share some of the rooms that UBC has already built there and then build specialized rooms (ie: fitness center?) in the vacant restaurant spaces.

[Rusty Gull]

unfortunately most people would rather hang out near the ocean/seawall/beach instead of some concrete tunnel in the middle of downtown. and i dont blame them.

Fair enough if we are talking about summer - but the problem is that nobody wants to go there during the fall, winter or spring either.

The City needs to find a way to bring traffic from the Canada Line and/or SkyTrain and/or Pacific Centre into that facility. Otherwise, it is doomed to fail - as a public amenity. As an underground office space, it works just fine.

[Zassk]

I can't think of a single reason why Canada Line / SkyTrain traffic would want to be funneled through Robson Square. It's a nice romantic idea, but it would only inconvenience people. For better or for worse, the rapid transit was built two blocks north and two blocks east. Robson Square is in the wrong location.

[Rusty Gull]

Is there a reason why Robson Square has never been considered as an expansion site for the VAG? It's centrally located, it's windows-free (ideal for art), and it would provide ample space for exhibitions, etc.

[Rusty Gull]

I can't think of a single reason why Canada Line / SkyTrain traffic would want to be funneled through Robson Square. It's a nice romantic idea, but it would only inconvenience people. For better or for worse, the rapid transit was built two blocks north and two blocks east. Robson Square is in the wrong location.

For starters, it would be quite convenient for the hundreds of office workers who work at the law courts, along Hornby Street, etc. Secondly, it might open up some new retail opportunities (and give downtown a bit more, no pun intended, depth).

I will happily admit that I am against the Vancouver policy of forcing all pedestrians to happily exist at street level.

I don't know what city our politicians and planners live in, but personally, from October to April I find downtown Vancouver rainy, cold and miserable. I have no desire to get soaked in order to fulfill the city's mandate of "street level pedestrian ambiance."

[Zassk]

Well, there is the small matter of the Howe St. truck tunnel, which has existed for as long as Robson Square existed, and which basically prevents the square from ever being connected to any rapid transit except to the west.

[trofirhen]

Well, there is the small matter of the Howe St. truck tunnel, which has existed for as long as Robson Square existed, and which basically prevents the square from ever being connected to any rapid transit except to the west.

The Howe Street Tunnel issue has been raised numerous times.

OK. How about a pedestrian way going UNDER the tunnel? >>>> a deep escalator down (rather like Granville Skytrain) >>>> a passage under the tunnel >>>>> An escalator UP back to street level to connect with Canada Line, etc.

Think this sounds too complex? Other big cities, (and excuse me, but I've lived in a number of them) often have similar issue to deal with, and find a way, often more complicated than this. (* Try the Métro station at Lamotte Piquet-Grenelle in Paris, for starters, or St. Lazare, or Montparnasse ......)

What I'm talking about here is A-B-C in comparison.

[SpongeG]

thats insane - the cost alone

all you have to do is cross the street from sears as most people use the mall and sears to navigate to robson

after hours is deader anyway

[Rusty Gull]

^Let's think a bit outside the box, can't we? Do we want to invigorate our civic square, or do we want to let it languish because we can't think hard enough about moving pedestrians around in a tunnel-esque system, the kind that exists in most major world cities. I love Kamloops, but I'm sorry, we ARE NOT Kamloops.

[trofirhen]

Something that might go well in Robson Square is a cineplex.

[SpikePhanta]

Something that might go well in Robson Square is a cineplex.

ScotiaBank theatre already controls the downtown market, the granville one is barely alive.

[SpongeG]

^Let's think a bit outside the box, can't we? Do we want to invigorate our civic square, or do we want to let it languish because we can't think hard enough about moving pedestrians around in a tunnel-esque system, the kind that exists in most major world cities. I love Kamloops, but I'm sorry, we ARE NOT Kamloops.

it does not languish - everytime i pass it day or night people are using it - smoking pot on the stars, dancing to their ipods, salsa lessons, whatever its well used, UBC uses it as well as other offices

I'd love to see what you people don't see - its never that dead

[trofirhen]

I was asked over the weekend (by an out-of-towner) why there isn't a Community Centre near Robson/Granville. His reasoning was that with all the new condos in the area -meaning more people living there- do they have use the existing Community Centres on Denman, Coal Harbour, or Yaletown?

Which got me wondering if there is a sufficient population in the area to have the ex-restaurant spaces in Robson Square reused as a Community Centre. I know there isn't room for a full Gym &tc, but perhaps all that is needed is to share some of the rooms that UBC has already built there and then build specialized rooms (ie: fitness center?) in the vacant restaurant spaces.

Worth looking into. Plus maybe some kind of holistic health centre ... numerous possibilities in the realm you suggest.

[red-paladin]

We could put the gay cosplay bubble tea cafe that Mr. X suggested in the closed restaurant. That would liven things up!