Royal Connaught Hotel | ? | 36 fl, 33 fl, 24 fl & 13 fl | U/C

[SteelTown]

Consortium 'pretty close' to finding backers for Connaught project, Battaglia says

http://www.thespec.com/images/assets/366620_3.JPG
Massive renovations are planned for the Royal Connaught Hotel, the 1916 downtown landmark.

Consortium 'pretty close' to finding ...Group insists downtown venture still a go despite cash woes

Nicole Macintyre
The Hamilton Spectator
(Oct 24, 2007)

Nearly three years after promising to revamp the Royal Connaught Hotel, investors are still trying to find financing for the project.

"We're pretty close," said Tony Battaglia, spokesperson for the group behind the massive renovation.

Rumours have been swirling for months that the hotel is for sale or the project is in trouble, forcing Battaglia to continually reaffirm the venture is still alive.

"It's frustrating, but rumours are part of life," he said.

Gord Moodie, the city's co-ordinator of downtown municipal incentives, remains optimistic about the project, which is seen as a key part of the downtown plan.

"I think the next couple of months will tell the story."

But even if the project falls through, Moodie said he's already talked to other hoteliers who are interested in the property. "Either way it's going to fly."

The Connaught went into receivership and closed its doors in November 2004. A couple of months later, the local consortium bought the 1916 landmark for $4.5 million.

The group -- including businesspeople such as Battaglia, hotelier Oscar Kichi, builder Ted Valeri, union head Joe Mancinelli and banker Mario Frankovich -- promised to return the hotel to its former glory.

Since then, the project has encountered numerous design challenges, which have now been settled, said Battaglia.

The current plan includes a revamped hotel under the Renaissance name of the Marriott chain and a condo tower at the back.

In August, the city approved a $3.4-million downtown revitalization loan for the condo portion of the project. The money doesn't flow until the construction is well underway.

Finding financing for the hotel portion of the costly project has been a challenge, forcing the group to expand its search for a willing investor, said Battaglia.

"It's a complicated project."

The businessman recently moved his office out of the Connaught.

He said the move would have been necessary during renovations and he preferred to leave now, instead of the winter.

[raisethehammer]

yea sure...just like they "were close" the other 6 times the Spectator has interviewed them.
It's the new model in Hamilton - buy a heritage building, gut it and sit around waiting for government money to come to the rescue before the wrecking ball arrives.

[DC83]

I would hope that the city would be riding their ass' about this one...
Didn't they already give them $2mil for the gutting?

If Keg is out, rth, have their been any other names thrown around?

[raisethehammer]

nope...nobody will firm up until something actually happens.
Keg is opening in stoney creek and waterdown instead.

[DC83]

nope...nobody will firm up until something actually happens.
Keg is opening in stoney creek and waterdown instead.

Obviously like a Big Box bldg in the middle of a lot, right?
Please tell me I'm wrong and that they're locating in Olde Town Stoney Creek???? a-la Old Powerhouse????

[fastcarsfreedom]

I would take the Keg opening in Stoney Creek and Waterdown to mean they are likely opening in the respective power centers being built in both locations. The Keg downtown is not an utter and complete impossibility--we have fairly recently acquired a Keg in Downtown Windsor.

[SteelTown]

Building it back up
This block is key to renewal. It’s a focal point of the downtown, housing the grand Connaught. But like the Connaught, it’s mostly hollow today. Slowly, quietly, businesspeople are trying to pull it back together, believing vibrancy can be restored.

PAUL WILSON
Hamilton Spectator

Let’s take a walk around the block.

It’s an old one, bounded by King, John, Main and Catharine.

For nearly a century, this block has been dominated by one hulking feature — the Royal Connaught Hotel, with marble-pillared lobby, spectacular ballroom, cocktails on the rooftop garden.

And at street level, the Connaught housed many shops. If we strolled that stretch of King 60 years ago we would have passed Raphael-Mack Ladies Wear, Dack’s Shoes, R.B. McLelland’s menswear, Liggett Drugs, Powell Photo.

Immediately east, on what is now the Connaught parking lot, was a building called the Secord Block. Down at street level were Bert Rymal Appliances, Robertson and Turner Jewelers, The Travel Shop, Empire Shoe Rebuilders, Courtland Steam Baths.

Upstairs were all manner of enterprises, including the Studio of Popular Music. Chris Lovett taught there. Paul Daniels taught people how to sing. J.R. McLachlan, dentist, gave them a winning smile.

If we walked along John, the western edge of this block, we would have passed the Connaught’s coffee shop, then Nick Corrado’s tailor shop, Miss Emma Schuler’s hat shop, Sekeshon’s Fashion Salon. Over these stores, on floors two, three and four, was Connaught Bowling & Billiards, with 26 alleys, five tables and a lunch bar.

Next door, the Merchants’ Store Fixtures building. And at the corner of John and Main, the Bright Spot restaurant, a printing company above it.

Just east on Main, operations on the block included Livingstone Stoker Sales, Connaught Motor Sales, Lennox Service Station.

In short, it was a bustling block with a long list of businesses.

And how many enterprises operate on that block today? Precisely one.

“Call me crazy, but I love downtown,” says Murline Mallette. She and husband Gene have been running Liaison College of Culinary Arts at 27 John South for 10 years.

The location is handy for students, and the Farmers’ Market is handy for fresh ingredients. Mallette says they’re staying downtown. She believes the cancer around her is about to be cured.

So does her landlord, Glen Swire. “Call me crazy too,” he says. Swire is part of the family that first brought Colonel Sanders and his secret herbs and spices to town in the early 1960s.

Sometimes the colonel even slept at their house.

The Swires had Kentucky Fried Chicken outlets all over the city. Thirty years ago they decided they needed one downtown, and Swire put up the building on John South and opened a 92-seater in 1978.

At that time, the post office was right across the street. Everybody went there in those days, and hundreds worked there. That KFC closed in 1996 — downtown was deteriorating, the post office moved to Stoney Creek and McDonald’s and Wendy’s left their locations across from Gore Park.

Swire, 57, values Liaison as a tenant and has no plans to sell. “I’ve got another 20 years to hang on,” he says, but predicts downtown will be a better place inside of 10 years.

He’s heartened by what’s happening one door south, at John and Main.

Whistler-based Gibbons Hospitality Group has bought a 157-year-old stone building for $500,000 and is spending $2 million to turn it into a 900-seat club, complete with what could be downtown’s only rooftop patio. The London Tap House opens soon.

Matt Gibbons looked on the Mountain. “But it’s more of a strip-mall feel up there. The history’s down here.”

One door east on Main, the BFT Group (Building for Tomorrow) is putting the finishing touches on a $200,000 renovation of what long ago was the site of the Lake & Bailey flour mill.

Brent Coleman of BFT — a young local group — says it’s their first venture downtown. The building, purchased last year, has café, office, loft potential.

They’ve moved stairways, installed heavy structural beams, struggled to get permits.

Coleman is sure it’ll be worth it. “I think this block is key. Five years from now, it’ll look significantly better than it does today.”

One door north of Liaison College is the four-storey building that once housed that bowling alley and billiards.

It’s in bad shape and has been mostly empty for years. There was the seedy Crazy Horse Saloon, whose rough patrons caused Liaison many headaches.

The saloon’s recent death is good news.

Now the building — bowling lanes long gone — is for sale. Mississauga realtor Anastasia Tolias has the listing.

She doesn’t know much about Hamilton, but “I don’t like what I see in the downtown core … Everybody needs to come together and kick it up a couple of notches.”

She has the property listed at $800,000, ambitious indeed. The building’s owned by a numbered company.

Ted Mammas of Mississauga, one of the principals, says they simply bought it as an investment. They’re not interested in developing the building, just selling it.

So that’s four properties on the block. The fifth, last not least, the great beast, Lady Connaught. After she slipped into receivership in 2004, five local businessmen bought her for $4.5 million — Tony Battaglia, a founder of Hamilton airport’s TradePort; Plaza Hotel owner Oscar Kichi; Ted Valeri of T. Valeri Construction; Labourers’ International Union vice-president Joe Mancinelli; and Mario Frankovich, president of Burgeonvest Securities.

They said they would make the Connaught royal again. They thought it would be done by now, but the job of rebuilding has not yet begun. They can’t find the financing.

The plan morphed into a mammoth project that would see the Connaught buy the other four properties on the block, knocking them down and putting up two 18-storey condo towers behind the renovated hotel.

According to Battaglia, lead hand for the Connaught ownership group, two of the four parties were “totally unreasonable” in what they wanted. So that plan died this summer.

The current plan is to do the Connaught with offices on floors two, three and four and put guest rooms on the other eight.

“The cost of renovating is more expensive than a brand-new building,” Battaglia says, “and the final appraisal shows a value that’s lower than the cost. Lenders just can’t wrap their heads around that.”

So the search for money goes on.

Battaglia says the ownership team may have to ante up more money. And they may now have to go to second-chance lenders, who charge higher interest.

Battaglia says there’s been no surrender.

“I’m disappointed, but not defeated. I still think this is a great project.”

[realcity]

this is the next Lister. sitting empty to rot for years, while LIUNA tries to burn it down. They don't have enough confidence to invest their own money in the project.

[DC83]

^^ you're totally right, Realcity.

“The cost of renovating is more expensive than a brand-new building,” Battaglia says, “and the final appraisal shows a value that’s lower than the cost. Lenders just can’t wrap their heads around that.”

r u kidding me??? So how many arson attempts does everyone figure will happen over the winter? And I'm sure they'll blame it on the squatters (just like Lister).

This city is starting to get to me!

[the dude]

you're not the only one. i'm usually good for 3-4 years at a time and then i have to leave. i always come back, though. i always come back.

[raisethehammer]

POSSIBLE SALE OF LISTER AND CONNAUGHT??

http://900chml.com/news/news_local.cfm?cat=7428436912&rem=82123&red=80143623aPBIny&wids=410&gi=1&gm=news_local.cfm

[screenplaying]

Just make sure y'all brush up on your Connaught history...

http://forums.uncharted.ca/about90-15.html
http://www.uncharted.ca/content/view/228/35/

Now that Stinson has replaced the ex-priest as the 'front-man', the story might get too big before you have a chance to catch up. :)

[raisethehammer]

yea we know....some of that stuff was posted on a different thread in this forum last week.
welcome to the world of development in Hamilton....sounds like Italy eh?

[markbarbera]

Qualify that last comment please, RTH. The development scene in Hamilton may have elements that may be similar to organized crime, but not a specific nation. Many nations have an organized crime element, why say Italy? Would it be okay to say 'sounds like Russia', 'sounds like Jamaica', or 'sounds like Korea'? There are as many honest, law abiding citizens in Italy as there are in any of these other countries, including Canada. Why perpetuate bigotry?

[realcity]

God I hope Stinson buys the Lister and Connaught. LIUNA and Hi Rise are nothing but big talkers.

Stinson said on CHML today that people will pay a premium to live/work in an older renovated building that has character and class. So redevelop the Lister to its original state and sell the space as residential units over retail. He said 'give the market a chance to prove it'. He talked to the local developers the usual suspects and all they say is "you can't build that in Hamilton, nobody wants that" He replies "have you ever tried" and they of course haven't. They just keep perpetuating the same old song in Hamilton that you can't do that here... blah blah blah. but no one has ever tried.

So Harry will come along and prove those deadbeats wrong. Build big Harry Build Big. PLEASE. One King West for the Hammer. or the Sapphire. something to give us a new tallest.

[raisethehammer]

Qualify that last comment please, RTH. The development scene in Hamilton may have elements that may be similar to organized crime, but not a specific nation. Many nations have an organized crime element, why say Italy? Would it be okay to say 'sounds like Russia', 'sounds like Jamaica', or 'sounds like Korea'? There are as many honest, law abiding citizens in Italy as there are in any of these other countries, including Canada. Why perpetuate bigotry?


My family is from Italy and it's common knowledge who all the 'mob' guys are and how powerful they are. More powerful than the police in the area of Sicily we come from.
Perhaps there are areas in Russia or elsewhere with a similar mob history/present, but I'm not knowledgable enough to know. Obviously no bigotry intended...my main point was how eerily similar a lot of the backroom dealings are, and the number of unsavoury characters that hang out with our development industry and city hall leaders. My wife can share stories of the mob coming through their homes and every home in the area tearing everything apart looking for someone. Obviously it's not that bad here, but you'd have to bury your head to not know of Hamilton mob history and very much alive mob present

[raisethehammer]

God I hope Stinson buys the Lister and Connaught. LIUNA and Hi Rise are nothing but big talkers.

Stinson said on CHML today that people will pay a premium to live/work in an older renovated building that has character and class. So redevelop the Lister to its original state and sell the space as residential units over retail. He said 'give the market a chance to prove it'. He talked to the local developers the usual suspects and all they say is "you can't build that in Hamilton, nobody wants that" He replies "have you ever tried" and they of course haven't. They just keep perpetuating the same old song in Hamilton that you can't do that here... blah blah blah. but no one has ever tried.

So Harry will come along and prove those deadbeats wrong. Build big Harry Build Big. PLEASE. One King West for the Hammer. or the Sapphire. something to give us a new tallest.


He made it quite clear today that he will build big. He said he's got no use for small projects. Did a small infill in TO and said it was just as big a hassle as his mega-towers.
Your dream of a new tallest might be coming to pass....and a LOT sooner than I expected.

[realcity]

every culture and country has OC. Mark took a particular offense, I know RTH and he's the opposite of a bigot. We do need to be sensitive re: cultural issues. Remember DiIanni taking it from Fred at his roast.. totally uncalled for and unfair.

[raisethehammer]

thanks Realcity, and once again, I certainly intended no harm. I guess it's not a taboo topic for our family...at family gatherings someone always has the newest batch of mob stories to share from back home. Everyone laughs and has a good time....we don't sit around talking about those 'blankety-blank Italians' That'd be us! lol.

[realcity]

Yeah I heard him say that about small projects. He said they're just as much work as big projects. So why bother with small?

Hamilton are you listening? Stop saying mega-projects don't/won't work. They damn work well. NYC downtown was shithole until they built the World Trade Center and it seeded the entire area. Little fuckin parkettes and planters aren't going to change anything. If we are going to take babysteps then take big babysteps and take one every week. Not a small baby step once every mayoral term and think that's enough to transform downtown.

Do it Harry. Go Big in the Hammer.

[realcity]

Saying Mega-projects don't work is just a lame ass excuse because no one has the balls to build a mega project in Hamilton. This city is so starving, so ripe for something big to happen. Harry said a big seed project is what's needed to get all the landowners downtown off their ass and do something with their land.

[raisethehammer]

let's not get carried away and say that mega projects do work well...check out Jackson Sq...
done PROPERLY, they can work well. his towers fit in with the streetscape and he does retail/commercial at the ground level. he hates blank brick walls as much as I do! And I HATE them.

[fastcarsfreedom]

I'm sorry--is it just me, or are you all now clamouring for a "big" project after all those posts saying "big" projects don't work and pointing to the "failures" of the past (Jackson Square, Copps, Convention Center, etc). I'm all for 'big', I'm all for 'small'--but this sudden sea change surprises me. Harry Stinson is exactly the sort of developer everyone here is always railing against. I'm confused.

[raisethehammer]

if you heard the interview with him today you'd realize that he's exactly the type of developer we've been begging for...not the lame crap we have in this city.
Personally, I'm a big fan of urban streetscapes, infill, street presence etc....but I do recognize the value of a few tall towers in strategic locations.
He's not proposing a Jackson Square...he's making comparisons between the Connaught and 1 King West in TO....that's a far cry from a Jackson Sq flop. Street level retail/cafes with commercial above and then tons of residential. Exactly would we need on empty lots there.

[screenplaying]

yea we know....some of that stuff was posted on a different thread in this forum last week.
welcome to the world of development in Hamilton....sounds like Italy eh?

Thanks, I went and looked it up and I see that member Goldfinger called me out in that thread (probably without realizing that I'm available for conversation). I'm not schooled on Lister enough to respond there. I'll stay with what I know...

Great, we have allegations from unanmed sources, disgruntled memebrs of a competing Union and a left wing special interest group. No charges, convictions, inquests, etc.

LIUNA has also been seen with leaders and cabinet ministers from the Provincial and Federal Liberal parties. So I guess we should be calling Dalton, Don Dalton instead.

If you belive this to be fact, you should visit large construction sites across Canada and tell the members that you believe their union dues support organized crime.

OK, this is a complicated story that a few of us have spent years researching. I'm going to throw some links and information at you guys and then you believe what you want of it.

It's all about ripping off pension plans (http://www.uncharted.ca/content/view/249/24/) and 'other'. OC has been dipping into those types of slush funds for decades (watch Casino or anything Hoffa (http://www.uncharted.ca/content/view/220/21/) related to get the gist).

Here is the step by step:

1) Take lots of money and pretend to 'invest' it in whatever (real estate in this example)
2) Get inflated receipts
3) Spend the real money yourself or invest it offshore
4) Trade and daisy chain the properties and inflated book figures until your investment can be written off as A LOSS.
5) Close the books.

That's it. There's been a minor problem for the last few years. They can't close the books. Their worthless paper 'investments' are just that. Noticeably worthless. And they can't just lose it anymore. Because people are watching. You think all the theoretical money 'borrowed' or 'invested' in the Connaught exists? You're quite the idiot if you do. They need a spectacular LOSS on paper to cover what's been invested.

The same goes for the sister going-nowhere building, which interestingly has its own wikipedia page (links at the bottom are recommended!)...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondo_Condo

Goldfinger mentioned Liberals? Tell him I came this close to blowing up Chretien (http://www.m-f-d.org/topic/4.001091.67s0.php) and I wasn't even 'disgruntled' at the time! I do like the name Don Jean though. :)

You want charges? We're hoping that FSCO will finally follow through on the charges (http://www.fsco.gov.on.ca/english/pensions/penbulletinonline/courtprosecution/prosecution/Canadian_Commercial_Workers.asp). Their reports also highlight the Connaught (http://www.m-f-d.org/topic/4.001218.kpht.php) adventures.

You want to know if union dues support organized crime? Do some further reading (http://books.google.com/books?id=sTkWj4ixz8sC&dq).

You can keep getting hurt by buying the crap they 'sell' you... or you can expose it and call them on it. I don't know if Hamilton has ever really tried the second option.

I'm always available to chit-chat. Even with you Goldfinger. It's been a few years now that we've been sarcastically tracking this project while feeling sorry for the cheerleaders. It's sort of like watching Leaf fans. They just don't get that the team they're rooting for... sucks ass. Good luck with Stinson. Hope this isn't his last cash-grab before he high tails it out of the country. Ex front-men are known to make millions and then run off to the Caribbean (http://www.m-f-d.org/topic/4.001146.futa.php) or even off to Germany (http://web2.uwindsor.ca/flipside/vol3/apr00/00ap12b.htm).

But this is Hamilton. You guys can let me know if things will play out differently.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Feelings on Yale aside, I stand firm that Jackson Square is far from being a "flop". While many imagine some thriving urbane metropolis had Jackson Square never been built--the truth is, we'd have a large version of Brantford on our hands.

[markbarbera]

Your feelings on Jackson Square may be very different had you been in to Hamilton to visit it anytime in the past decade or so...

Jackson Square is not a sound development for several reasons. First off, there is no residential element in it. Any succesful modern downtown requires a significant residential element. This is a very basic urban design concept, like motherhood and apple pie.Yet somehow it was completely ignored in the development. Secondly, the phases of development are seriously disjointed. There is little evidence of forethought in the design of the various phases. It is diffiult to navigate, with pockets of its retail concourse excluded from a natural traffic pattern. It was doomed to poor tenancy by design.

How Hamilton would have evolved if JS was not built is purely speculative and second-guessing in its most abstract form. Having said that, had I been around at decision-making time, I would have hesitated on razing such a large part of a thriving business area all at once, and I am including York Street's conversion to a boulevard in this assessment. A more gradual development with a solid long-term vision for the neighbourhood would have produced a much more successful overall project. Having a property management office that is in touch with the needs of the neighbourhood, and a willingness to invest in correcting oversights would have also been helpful.

[raisethehammer]

yea, second guessing is not much use now. For all we know all those great businesses that filled market square, King/James and York might still be there thriving and in a downtown full of pedestrian traffic.
Stinson said yesterday that JS can easily be fixed. Open it to the street and get residential in there.
This guy doesn't seem scared by anything - he said he'd love to get his hands on Stelco Tower and add some high end residential in there. With some renovations to open the complex to the street and rejigging the interior to allow for some of the larger-format stores (he also talked about this for JS) - large grocery, Canadian Tire, Business Depot etc.... it could function well as an urban shopping/dining/working/living complex. Who knows. He might be right, but it would take some good reno's and new influx of retail. They need to rethink the entire place. Knock out stores and open them into bigger spaces if they can land a HomeSense or Winners. They can't just sit on a huge place full of tiny retail spaces that will remain empty forever. An Indigo would work as well...pretty much anything could fit in there since it's so huge. It would just take some work and imagination.

[fastcarsfreedom]

All of this sounds familiar--as in stuff we (and I) have mentioned in the past. Again, just because I happen to live outside of Hamilton doesn't mean I don't visit and it doesn't mean I don't keep up-to-date on what's going on in the city. Jackson Square was highly successful for many years--a combination of factors have hurt it in the past 15--it's design may have been an aggrivating factor--but nothing more so.

Secondly, residential was a large component of Civic Square's original design--I believe it was two large towers on the Bay/York quadrant of the development. This was obviously needed for Copps and thus was deleted from the plan. The phases--while seemingly disjointed were built to satisfy retail and office space demand which existed at the time--plain and simple. Some of the disjointedness of the layout has resulted as a factor of some of the weirdo modifications that have taken place over the years--such as sealing off much of the retail concourse in Phase IV.

Though Stelco Tower may have significant vacancy, I don't think it is the best candidate for residential-ization. As was pointed out, Class A space does quite well in Hamilton, and Stelco Tower has a lot of potential given some investment--it's a great office tower--definitely needs some upgrading--but upgrading would make new commercial tenancy much more viable. Residential is important--but it's not the only path. Agreed though fully that Jackson Square needs a residential element and large format retail.

[realcity]

I'm clamouring now for a 'big seed' project and I always have been. The baby steps approach has been going on for 15 years, unfortunately the decay has been happening in slightly larger babysteps. We've been winning some battles but also loosing some.

Anyone who wants to argue that downtown is better now then it was 15-20 years ago, I ask them to remember that 15 years ago even the Lister Block was open, the Tivoli was functioning as a Famous Players theatre and later live performance venue, The Right House contained more than just a Tim Horton's, the retail space was occupied and a very successful Adverising Agency in the floors above, there were at least a half dozen good popular niteclubs, there were several upscale retail shops, Caplans, Jerry's, Daks, fine furs & jewellers and inside Eaton where a discount dept store is now was the location of Harry Rosen, entrance to Jackson Sq was Club Monaco. Stelco Tower was full, JS was full (and didn't have a wing closed-off) the CIBC was brand new, Cotton Club, Eatons, The Barn, all three floors of Eaton Centre occupied until the early 90s recession. Downtown has never been in worse shape, something big has to happen, because these incrimental steps are not happening fast enough to counter the decaying incriments.

I've always been saying that downtown needs someone with some balls and money to seed the development and get the five families that own downtown off their butts and do something with their land.

They are all waiting for someone to make the first move. They are land speculators, not really interested in developing just waiting for the right time to sell to a real developer. What they don't realize is the longer they take the more decrepit the properties become and they can't sell because they've been paying property tax year after year... forcing them to wait even longer to recoup their 'investment'.

Stinson said on CHML he talked to the landowners and asked "why are you not building, if your not selling?". They're all in a stalemate. Downtown is in a stalemate and Harry looks to be the only person who can break it.

[matt602]

Well if theres one thing through all of this we can consider ourselves lucky to have, its the mass amount of people that still come downtown through all of this mess. Without them downtown would have died 10 years ago. They've been keeping it right on the edge of life. Now we need to keep their attention with some big projects...

[raisethehammer]

yup..Matt is right. Downtown isn't dead by any means. i think Harry is right. It's about to burst to life.
I don't have stats but I'd venture to say there is nowhere in Buffalo that sees over 70,000 pedestrians every 24 hours like our Gore area does. A huge population lives within a 10 minute walk of the Gore. Some new draws will bring more of them to their own backyard again instead of driving out to the burbs.
I think Harry is here right on time. We've seen other groups investing downtown - the London Tap House is a huge signal IMO. These guys built Whistler for the most part...the fact they are investing huge here is an awesome sign.
The guy from TO doing the Foster building...again, 10 years ago that wasn't happening. Honest Lawyer has been a smashing success on a crappy stretch of King (as far as pedestrian space goes).
If Harry can get a hold of the lot next to Pigott and get LIUNA to do mega-residential beside both the Connaught and Lister I think we'll have finally reached that tipping point where even the most deadbeat, negative suburban Hamilton whiner will have no choice but to shut-up. Boy, I can't wait for that day.

[fastcarsfreedom]

realcity--going back 15 years to 1992 or 1993--the decline of downtown was in full swing--I would argue in some ways the early 1990s represented downtown's nadir--that is, the decline itself was in full swing and accelerating. The Tivoli had long since been abandoned by Famous Players and was sitting rotting under the ownership of Sam Sniderman at the time. The Hamilton Eaton Centre was never fully occupied--in fact, within only a year of opening the few retail stores on the third level all either closed up or moved downstairs. The Right House was only fully occupied with retail in the brief months after it re-opened in 1985 or 86--and by the early 90s it contained very little retail--in fact, even Tim Hortons wasn't open yet. Stelco Tower was in better shape at the time definitely--but that's because Stelco still occupied it--the departure of those offices had nothing at all to do with downtown--and yes, by the early 1990s the rot was setting in at Jackson Square--and Phase IV was closed off right around that time--I believe '94, in preparation for a charity casino that was never built.

Since that time there has been significant recovery in and around the core--James South, James North--more recently I Village and continued growth in Hess Village. For certain the immediate core area and Jackson Square still have a long way to go--but the decline itself is no longer precipitous and seemingly unstoppable.

[raisethehammer]

if you talk with folks who owned shops or businesses downtown back in the 50's and 60's they'll tell you that the decline started after the one-way street conversion...it took a couple of decades to translate into boarded up windows and empty stores, but that's only because they had so far to fall it took 20 years.
I think we've already turned a corner downtown...a few well-done 'signature' projects downtown will send out a strong signal to everyone that we have in fact turned a corner.

[markbarbera]

I don't think there was any time when retail in Jackson Square could be described as thriving. It was moderately successful in the 70's and 80's, but the stores located there were never leaders for their chains. Commercial office space was much more successful, mainly due to the tenancy of Stelco and BMO, both of whom disappeared in the 90's.

[realcity]

I'm going back to before the 90s recession. I worked in Jackson sq and had friends in the Eaton Centre, who worked on the third floor. I agree the early 90s was a big hit for downtown. Except to say there was more nitelife than now. The return of clubs is positive with London Tap House and Honest Lawyers, replacing long gone Acropolis, Monopoli, Tonic, Texas Border, Rockabillys, Tailgate Charlies, corner of King Willian and John in the old World Gym, Main and Caroline, Fever. Two new clubs doesn't replace 6 lost. It's positive but we need 5 more Honest Lawyers downtown.

Before the 92 recession there was more retail downtown too. See earlier post. Hamilton was smart in creating high density population in the core or else it would've been a Buffalo. Those residential towers south of the core are what sustained it and made it less challenging today.

I don't think we've turned a corner from the late 80s yet. From the early 90s? yes. We need more retail and grocery, more office workers (a healthy low office vacancy rate), and more destinations (daytime and after hours). the only thing positive on everything is a growing residential.

[raisethehammer]

I'm not a clubber, but isn't Tailgate Charlies still there??? and 77 replaced Texas Border, along with the underground space in the same building...The Casbah at LaLuna would fall into the 'newer' category along with some of the Hess spots - Funky Munky, Elixir etc....
I liked the fact that Harry Stinson talked about new office development too. Someone mentioned to him on-air that we need all-day GO Train service. He said "that would be nice, but there's no reason you can't have a functioning downtown with office/retail/residential all right here".
I've been saying that for years. It drives me nuts to hear the small-thinkers at city hall say things like "downtown will never be the centre of retail like it once was". Why not?? Cities like Boston, Portland and Toronto have regained/maintained their downtowns as the centre of retail.
I think it really bugs me when they say that because what they really mean is "we aren't committed enough to downtown to ever have it become the heart of our city again".

They know full well that it COULD, but they won't take us there because they don't care enough.
That's probably why Harry is gaining such attention...he talks like he cares about the downtown and historic buildings.... we aren't used to that in Hamilton - not from residents, politicians and most certainly, not developers.

[DC83]

Texas Border = 77/ Dirty Dogs / Underground
Tailgates is still there... there's also Liquid Kitty under it
Fever = Remedy
There's also Barcode which is an afterhours bar @ King William / John.

King William isn't the club district it once was, but it's far from dead.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Hmm--well, perhaps we remember history differently. When Phase IV of Jackson Square was completed in the mid 1980s the mall was entirely full--there was not a national chain that wasn't represented downtown. Some operators (including BMO) had multiple locations in the mall--the mall was thriving--Saturdays were absolutely packed and daily pedestrian traffic through the mall was 100,000 in the early 1980s.

As for office space--it was the departure (during bankruptcy) of Stelco and of Phillip Services that really hurt Stelco Tower. BMO's departure was glancing blow to pride perhaps--but has resulted in fairly little vacant space (3 floors of a small building). Don't forget both RBC and Bell have relocated TO Jackson Square. Again, it's important to remember that Commerce Place poached some tenants away from 100 King--and Commerce Place is maintained at Class A. A Class A redo of Stelco Tower and a full court press to fill the space are what's needed to rememdy the issue there--lure US Steel back, or for love of life, why not Dofasco-Arcelor-Mittal or whatever it's called now--has anyone ever seriously tried to lure them in?

[Goldfinger]

A Class A redo of Stelco Tower and a full court press to fill the space are what's needed to rememdy the issue there--lure US Steel back, or for love of life, why not Dofasco-Arcelor-Mittal or whatever it's called now--has anyone ever seriously tried to lure them in?

No...Because the landlord has losers like this representing them:

"All that space was designed to house the kind of big companies that aren't here anymore. Stelco, Westinghouse, Firestone, you name it."

It would be a mistake to hope that the big companies will be coming back to town. "I've been waiting for that for 25 to 30 years," (David) Blanchard says. "It's not going to happen."

[DC83]

^^ I think the main point here, Fastcars, is that the Connaught needs to be a mix of all aspects: Tourism, Residential, Business & Entertainment!
This will create a much more viable development (IMO anyway) and will ensure a contunious flow of income.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Goldfinger--my feelings on Yale have been well-posted here--I agree with you 100%, they are lousy managers on both the retail and commercial side--and continue to have a very "take-it or leave-it" attitude.

DC83--did you mean Jackson Square? If so, I agree with you completely--replacing some of the lost commercial foot traffic at Jackson Square with actual residential tenants is the best hope for a complete revival. Imagine how appealing it would be to market condos attached to a revitalized centre with shopping options such as a supermarket, the farmers market and other retail.

The Connaught is another story. It would be really unfortunate for that building to not come back as a hotel--just when the city is starting to turn-the-corner on hotel room inventory permanently losing those 250 or so rooms would be a real setback. If condo towers are what's needed to make the whole project work--bring it on--we need in-fill in those Connaught parking lots anyway. I had my high school prom there -- the place means a lot to me--anxious to see it open again.

[DC83]

^^ I was referring to the Connaught... I was trying to bring the thread back to it's topic.

Hell ya, build condo towers on those lots behond it! But I liked the original plan of the top couple of stories being High-End Residential, and the lower floors as hotel space, tourism-related retail back on the street-level with a great restaurant in the old Fran's spot!

They should re-build another rec centre for the hotel & (potential) condos to share. I believe this is done for the Ramada on Jarvis S/ Gerrard in TO and seems to work fine (I've stayed there twice and never had any probs with owners... although they probably use that rec centre as much as the owners in my bldg use ours... which is NEVER haha).

This whole block has the potential to be a huge complex consisting of all elements I posted above, and would certainly bring tons of life not only back to the core but the entire dowtown. I believe this is what Stinson sees in this project as well.

[raisethehammer]

I agree, the connaught should have retail/residential/condo/hotel etc.... there's a TON of room on that site.

[realcity]

They need to go big and get the economy of scale required to make the project work. Getting income from retail, hotel, condo, restaurant and office allows them to spread out the risk and diversify the income stream.

I hope the planned twin-tower condo becomes one tall condo. Imagine if CIBC was one tower instead of the two.

[raisethehammer]

hmmm, not a bad idea. I'm sure Stinson will push them to do one large tower instead of 2, 18 storey buildings.
Although, wouldn't that be a large footprint for a downtown condo tower?? maybe they'd do one huge one and one smaller one right next to it. I'm no expert on height-floorplate ratio though...anyone here know about that kind of stuff?? I know they always say 1 King West was quite a challenge due to it's small floorplate and tall height. What would be a normal floorplate for a 30+ storey tower??

[DC83]

What's done often in Toronto is a tall tower anchored by a wider, residential pedestal. The "pedestal" is usually marketed as "lofts" as they have higher ceilings than the actual condo units themslves. So a pedestal/tower combo would work well to fill in the entire back lot.
This pedestal would also give tons of room for a rec centre to connect the Connaught w/ the Condo Tower.

Something like THIS would fit in nicely ;)

http://www.condoleaf.com/users/up/Element.jpg
http://www.condoleaf.com/users/up/Element.jpg

[realcity]

that would be perfect for behind Connaught. and sharing the amenities with the hotel is a great idea.

[raisethehammer]

I'd like to see a pedestal that wraps around the building with a curved tower on top....the two 'edges' of the curve would face King and London Taps Building.

[chris k]

When this (eventually) does get refinished, what hotel chain do you think would come into this project?

I can't see it becoming Howard Johnson again but something more lucrative such as the Fairmont would be more suitable for such a high class hotel and Faimonts are usually located right in the cores if cities

I remember when i was in Vancouver a year or two ago and stayed in the Farimont Hotel Vancouver and it really reminded me of the Connaught.

http://www.excelloz.com/Vancouver/Fairmont_Vancouver/Intro/fairmont_vancouver-overview1.jpg

I think it would fit perfectly with this project and be a great addition to downtown.

[the dude]

if you're looking for inspiration from vancouver, the sylvia hotel is an even better example:
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa121/the_dude1974/sylviahotel.jpg
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa121/the_dude1974/sylviahotel2.jpg

[realcity]

To bring some class downtown I'd like...
Fairmont
Four Seasons
InterContinnental

or more modest 4-star
Delta
Crown Plaza
Hyatt

They all do nice jobs with their buildings and lobbies

[SteelTown]

The Connaught group did try to get the Fairmont but they toured the place and ran away after seeing a strip joint across the street, that's according to the Spec.

Currently it's suppose to be s Renaissance hotel chain, Renaissance Royal Connaught Hotel.

[flar]

The Renaissance that it was supposed to be is a type of Mariott hotel.

[SteelTown]

Yes, the Mariott hotel chain has been agressive with Hamilton lately.

[chris k]

Rennaisance by Marriot sounds pretty good but i would still prefer if we had more of a variety of hotels in Hamilton.

I still think that the Farimont would be more suited in this building but i would also like to see a Delta located downtown. I just can't see them using an older building as they usually like new projects so they can design it how they want exactly

http://www.excelloz.com/Toronto/Delta_Chelsea_Downtown/Intro/delta_chelsea_downtown-overview1.jpg

Example: This one has a waterslide in it.
:cheers:

[DC83]

^^ Maybe if the skinnier tower were glass, then yes. Coloured glass... this city needs variety in High Rise colours. Everything looks so 70's!

[chris k]

^^ Maybe if the skinnier tower were glass, then yes. Coloured glass... this city needs variety in High Rise colours. Everything looks so 70's!

Yeah but i was reffering to the interior of the hotels as they are beautiful and they are classy.

I don't remember the outside being this old looking when i stayed there a few years ago but i clearly remember the beauty inside......aswell as the price:koko:
:cheers:

[raisethehammer]

was downtown this morning and like the look of the 5-storey apartment coming along across from Connaught...hoping that Williams does in fact locate next to courthouse - a few steps from Connaught.
man, that huge lot next to Connaught would be perfect for a new tallest. A coloured glass building of some sort - condos obviously.
And being right across the street from our current tallest would be nice to show the different era's in all their majesty!

[DC83]

Yeah but i was reffering to the interior of the hotels as they are beautiful and they are classy.

I don't remember the outside being this old looking when i stayed there a few years ago but i clearly remember the beauty inside......aswell as the price:koko:
:cheers:

ya, I agree! The inside sells a hotel just as much, if not more, then the outside look.

The Connaught did (still does) have an impressive interior

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2218/1965866111_5e52e4c8d0.jpg?v=0
.:Axle:. from Flickr.com
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2218/1965866111_5e52e4c8d0.jpg?v=0

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2345/1966696980_d10cab230e.jpg?v=0
.:Axle:. from Flickr.com
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2345/1966696980_d10cab230e.jpg?v=0

http://www.hamiltonpostcards.com/images/hotel5Layer1.jpg
http://www.hamiltonpostcards.com/images/hotel5Layer1.jpg

And I believe it will be just as impressive when it reopens!!

[go_leafs_go02]

wow!!! that building, has so much potential. I seen the picture album on flickr, and it is a gem in the rough. If you can get a 4 star hotel to take residence there, that will begin an amazing transformation of the region around that area.

Just sounds like the neighbourhood needs some work. I read in one of the articles that a strip club across the street caused a hotel company to immediately lose interest. Should the city of Hamilton cater to the hotels who can bring interest/money in to the city coffer boxes, or permit the neighbourhood to remain downtrodden with those type of businesses?

[DC83]

The neighbourhood and surrounding neighbourhoods are in a turnaround.
Internation Village especially: http://www.hamiltoninternationalvillage.ca/

But there's a new building for Graduate Students being built across the street (87-89 King St http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=140390), new retail/residential in Gore Park (Foster Bldg http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=143106) , and POSSIBLY the pedestrianization of Gore Park.

There's lots happening around the Connaught, but the Strip Joint isn't the ONLY thing keeping hoteliers away!

[SteelTown]

And the city can't do anything with strip club. Larry Di Ianni wanted it closed but mentioned it's up to the province to close it down. Believe there's a bylaw where there can only be like 3 or 2 strip bars in the lower city of Hamilton.

[raisethehammer]

I said in another thread that I'm no clubber, and I'm certainly no strip-clubber, but I have to chuckle when hearing a hotelier say they got 'scared away' by a strip club.
Montreal has strip clubs on every corner...some look nice, some are total dives.
Surrounding buildings have Second Cup's, hotels, condos etc....

[coalminecanary]

there's only one strip club there. whatever, every city has a few of those so what are ya gonna do? i think that the strip club "scaring them away" story is (a) likely an exaggeration and (b) possibly completely made up. if they want it out of there, they just have to throw a bit of cash in the right direction.

[chris k]

I heard a rumour about a red light district here so if that happens im sure that club "scaring" away hotel chains will definitely move into this area. Either cash or some good incentives will almost for sure get that strip club to move.

It would be nice to see these joints removed as i'm sure some of the "undesirables" will follow it.
:cheers:

[SteelTown]

Bratina brought up the idea of a red light district. But good luck in finding a location for the district.

[the dude]

i'm not an expert in the area of strip clubs but i'm guessing the clientele is mostly comprised of married dudes from the burbs as opposed to rummies and street urchins. people are just too damned sensitive. rth already mentioned the montreal example. mind you, urban quebecers are a little more 'european' than we are.

[matt602]

Last time I was in the Connaught, we noticed that one of the chandeliers in the main foyer is gone now. I hope it was not destroyed. Those chandeliers are both original to the building, moved from the Crystal Ballroom when it was demolished. A lot of vandalism and such has happened to the building lately, so I'm worried that's what happened.

They've also been building a mini movie studio in there. There's a washroom stage built in the area where the kitchen was.

[chris k]

Bratina brought up the idea of a red light district. But good luck in finding a location for the district.

Yeah i was praying that they didnt choose Hess village. I could see something like Kenilworth becoming that but i hope it doesn't happen. I guess we will just have to take it like men and be able to ignore places like these. I just hope it doesn't affect the "sensative" businesses to much.
:cheers:

[realcity]

Rennaisance by Marriot sounds pretty good but i would still prefer if we had more of a variety of hotels in Hamilton.

I still think that the Farimont would be more suited in this building but i would also like to see a Delta located downtown. I just can't see them using an older building as they usually like new projects so they can design it how they want exactly

http://www.excelloz.com/Toronto/Delta_Chelsea_Downtown/Intro/delta_chelsea_downtown-overview1.jpg

Example: This one has a waterslide in it.
:cheers:

I mentioned Delta because look what they did in London
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/76/208519998_158d804ecf.jpg?v=0

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/36/87585209_45aae1a0e4.jpg?v=0

http://l.yimg.com/www.flickr.com/images/spaceball.gif

[highwater]

Hey, there's already a Hooters on Upper James. Let's put the redlight district up there!

[realcity]

LIUNA should be ashamed of themselves. I saw today at least 6 windows open to the elements. This building is going to look like the Lister in another year. They are not taking care of it. I wouldn't be surprised if 'suspicious' fires start to break out inside.

I don't understand it, this was an operating hotel before LIUNA decided to gut the place.

[raisethehammer]

and Lister was full and operating before it was emptied out in the 90's. St Deny's was full and operating before it was emptied out in the 90's....it's the Hamilton way.
take a full, functioning building. Kick everyone out. Let it rot. and then run to the taxpayers to help fatten your pockets or else face an ugly, rotting downtown streetscape. the sad part is, our government plays along happily. Fattening the pockets of a few absentee, speculative landlords at the expense of the rest of us. the media and a few self-proclaimed "capitalists" in town all go along for the ride as if they are running a great economy.
it's socialism, plain and simple. not for the people, but for a few rich folks.

[DC83]

LIUNA should be ashamed of themselves. I saw today at least 6 windows open to the elements. This building is going to look like the Lister in another year. They are not taking care of it. I wouldn't be surprised if 'suspicious' fires start to break out inside.

I don't understand it, this was an operating hotel before LIUNA decided to gut the place.

Didn't get they $1million from the City's brownfield fund to remove the asbestos? I believe that was the excuse they used to gut it!?

[matt602]

I really wouldn't be worried about a fire doing any damage in the Connaught. The place is stripped down to concrete and steel. The only part of the building that a fire could do anything is in the recently vacated offices.

[raisethehammer]

what about the balcony in the lobby...wasn't there some old wood there or was it all marble or stone? I have photos from inside that lobby from when I was in a wedding. Man, I hope they get Stinson involved and bring it back to life.

[matt602]

It's imitation marble and some wood. Even still, the superstructure is all concrete/steel. The place was built to last, definitely. It won't rot in the same way as Lister or Mackay/Victoria did. The plaster and paint is falling off the walls, and some water damage is starting to happen in places but it's far from structurally unsound.

[fastcarsfreedom]

A seemingly endless litany of mismanagement doomed the Connaught long before LIUNA came into the picture. Lets not forget that the place was padlocked because it went from being a respectable hotel to bankrupt in a few short years. From the circus that was the Joymarmon era to the ill-fated decision to brand the place with very midscale/freeway interchange Howard Johnson brand--the place went into an almost violent tailspin.

It's sad looking back. Not only was my high school prom there--but I remember the big renovation and marketing push that the Connaught did when the Sheraton opened (1985-ish?). At that time the place was fairly extenisvely renovated--including most of the guest rooms, along with the addition of the pool/waterslide--their ads at the time read "Reputations Aren't Built Overnight--They're Built Everynight". Vinton's Bistro & Grill was, at the time, considered one of the finer restaurants downtown. It occupied the space that Fran's was in most recently--and some of Vinton's upscale luster survived even after Fran's moved in...in fact, I believe the "V" door handles survived through to the end.

I'm as sickened as anyone to see the hotel in the condition it's in--I just don't lay all the blame at the feet of LIUNA. By the appearance of the photos I've seen--the guest room floors have been gutted and I presume asbestos abatement is complete--this actually puts the hotel in pretty good stead going forward--whether it be with LIUNA or otherwise.

RTH--a question about St. Deny's--I may have my geography entirely mixed up--or perhaps my timeline is off--I thought St. Deny's had been vacant for a considerable number of years--was it initially vacated for the condo development that never came to pass? I honestly don't recall--I do know a fire shortly after made the building "unsalvagable" in short order.

[raisethehammer]

yes, St Deny's was emptied out by an owner who's name escapes me. the plan was for a condo tower. that was like 1992 or 93 I think. Similar to Lister...a functioning building emptied out because someone had grander plans, only to leave us with some of our more significant challenges downtown.

[DC83]

I found this project in the Vancouver thread...
Seems like a similar bldg to the Connaught.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v643/vannmann/hgrendering28.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v643/vannmann/hgrendering28.jpg

from this thread: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=138024

That would look GREAT along Main St!!

[chris k]

Yeah that would look great. I just hope it isnt that tall as it would make the connaught seem small and unimportant compared to the condos as the connaught is like a landmark in the gore now. Lets maybe only 10-15 floors taller then connught would be perfect for me. I also hope that if condos go up along there, there properly connacted to the gore....aswell as london tap house.

[DC83]

I think that the tower (if a tower is to be built), should be put along Main St. Connect the Tower to the Gore with a great urban puplic square in what is now a pkng lot, and connect the Connaught to the Tower w/ a new rec centre!

This project has as much (if not more) potential than the Lister Block to turn downtown around.

[flar]

I think 25-30 floor would be good along Main St. Landmark place is just across the street and looks very lonely. The Connaught is 14 floors I think, and residential floors are a little shorter, so a 25 storey residential building wouldn't be that much taller.

I say let 'em build as high as they want in the core. Height restrictions are for neighbourhoods like James North, Locke or Westdale. Downtown should look like a big city.

[raisethehammer]

yea, there are only a few sites right downtown that could house towers. behind the Connaught is one of them. If Stinson gets involved you might see him approach a new tallest in this site....would make perfect sense. 40+ stories would work there and would add a huge amount of new residents.

[chris k]

I guess this tower would be close enough to the core to become a new tallest. I like how cities have a concentrated area of highrises and not completely spread out. An example would be when you see a skyline pic of TO, there is that concentration of large buildings at the financial district. I hope Hamilton can develop that sort of look around gore park and then slowly go shorter as we head away from gore. I find that very eye appealing and not just a cluster of buildings at the true center and anotehr very tall somewhere nearby but not entirely connected(like landmark place is now) Maybe if we get a tower here, it could better connect landmark and the other building cluster at the center. (stelco,piggot,cibc,sheraton,ellenfarirclough)
:cheers:

[DC83]

^^ That's funny. I often find a concentrated cluster of high-rises to be very American.
Toronto's High-Rises are spread out going north-south (with a nice new extension east-east thanks to City Place).

Montréal's high-rises are VERY spread apart.

Buffalo, Pittsburgh & Cleveland for example all seem to have ALL high-rises within their core only and none anywhere else. It's kinda strange.

But I like the idea of spread-out skyscrapers... makes a downtown look bigger!

[the dude]

i can't imagine a 40 storey tower being necessary here. i'd rather see the wealth spread around a little more. a low to mid-rise, very dense lower city is my personal vision.

[chris k]

Yeah they are in that sense but i am saying from the general skyline picture of toronto(from lake ontario) There seems to be a cluster of taller buildings in the CBD.

Just my opinion but Hamiltons current skyline has somewhat of a cluster appearance at king/james and then of course the southwest condos and landmark place. Threres also first place which is even farther out there.

I don't mind it if the skyscrapers are very spread out, but i like the idea of having alot located right in the core. Then when that fills up, start building out.

Back to the connaught, I wouldnt mind a 25-35 story tower on that site. I think its reasonably tall and would suit that area well.

[raisethehammer]

one of the reasons I'd like our new tallest to be at Connaught is because it's right across the street from Landmark Place. It would be nice to have our new tallest dwarf that 70's beauty.

[fastcarsfreedom]

RTH--we've found common-ground. I'm usually willing and at least partly able to defend any style of architecture--regardless of vintage. However, Landmark Place is simply ugly. Period.

[DC83]

^^ It was definately nice in the 70's! I can see how it was impressive, but Landmark Place in today's culture is disgusting... and to top it off, it's our city's tallest :s hahaha

I agree, a new, modern & sexy tower kiddy-corner to Landmark Place would totally give Hamilton's image a new (positive) boost!

[matt602]

Lots of workers shuffling in and out of the Connaught's front doors today, but for the usual reason: movie stuff. Not sure what they're doing, the guy I was talking to wasn't really all that nice and honestly didn't care about anything but going home after work.

They had a generator going in the lobby which is weird because the place still has power (as of last week).

Also noticed that one of the chandeliers was moved from the lobby to the old Fran's. I assume for a movie shoot as well. They re-did the floor tiles as well. Looks pretty nice.

[realcity]

I'm probably the only person who likes Landmark. A 43-story brutalism and mixed use building. The tallest residential building in Canada outside Toronto. That's something.
a new tallest post mod would look like it's right across the street, indeed a nice contrast in arch styles.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/cb/MainEastHamilton.JPG/800px-MainEastHamilton.JPG

[realcity]

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b276/theshawsphotos/cities/Stinson-Tower-Hamilton.jpg?t=1199722114

[raisethehammer]

i'm guessing Landmark isn't the tallest residential tower outside of TO anymore.... does anyone know though??

[flar]

43 storeys still puts it up there. Most of the newer condos are 30ish storeys,

[SteelTown]

It's still the tallest residential building outside of the GTA. Others outside of the GTA are mix used buildings.

[realcity]

i'm guessing Landmark isn't the tallest residential tower outside of TO anymore.... does anyone know though??

There's only one taller residential building (outside TO), it's in Calgary, built in 2007
http://skyscraperpage.com/cities/?buildingID=33824

Taller by one meter, bastards.

[flar]

Realcity, is that tower you placed on Main St from Vancouver?

EDIT: Nevermind, just saw DC83's post