Royal Connaught Hotel | ? | 36 fl, 33 fl, 24 fl & 13 fl | U/C

[WhipperSnapper]

Catch-22. people won't reserve units until the guy selling them actually owns the place, yet the financial institutions want to see his number of reservations before giving the financing to purchase the property.


I think he made a mistake to publicly announce he has yet to secure the property and then open a sales center. Sales center openings always set the tone and sales progressively slow down the longer the development is open to the public.

Toronto developers do extremely well in selling units on property they don't own and buildings that have yet to be approved by keeping it to fine print (i.e. option to buy contingent on approval)

He hasn't learned either. The re-designing of the floorplans to suite everyone needs after sales have already begun is an example of mirco-management that always got him into trouble

[oldcoote]

I think he made a mistake to publicly announce he has yet to secure the property and then open a sales center. Sales center openings always set the tone and sales progressively slow down the longer the development is open to the public.

Toronto developers do extremely well in selling units on property they don't own and buildings that have yet to be approved by keeping it to fine print (i.e. option to buy contingent on approval)

He hasn't learned either. The re-designing of the floorplans to suite everyone needs after sales have already begun is an example of mirco-management that always got him into trouble

Great post. Especially the last paragraph.

[raisethehammer]

yup...bang on. I agree with all of this.

[NorthEndRules]

I don't know about anyone else but I am hesitant to put a down payment until he has ownership. $5000 is a significant amount I don't want to worry about getting back. Does anyone know how easily could I get my money back if the sale falls through?

The sales guy said that until the end of the month you can choose the higher floors without having to pay extra so I am tempted to put down the 5k if it's safe to do so.

The finishes are light years superior to what's been available locally the last few year: automated parking spot' wood/broadloom/cork or bamboo floors; 5 stainless steel apliances; high end cabinetry; granite/marble/slate or limestone in the washrooms; geothermal heating and cooling; gas fireplace; full furniture package including flat screen tv and window coverings etc.

Grocery store on the ground floor, 24hr cafe, concierge, majestic lobby, central location...

[raisethehammer]

according to their material, your deposit is held in trust by Scarfone Hawkins and is 100% refundable.
Maybe give them a call to verify any fine print??

[SteelTown]

www.theconnaught.ca has just been updated.....

http://www.theconnaught.ca/cannon_contextplan_large.jpg

http://www.theconnaught.ca/cannon_siteplan_large.jpg

http://www.theconnaught.ca/cannon_plazaview_large.jpg

It's got way more information now.

The Sales Office

http://www.theconnaught.ca/photo_salesoffice_exterior_large.jpg

http://www.theconnaught.ca/photo_salesoffice_interior1_large.jpg

http://www.theconnaught.ca/photo_salesoffice_interior2_large.jpg

[DC83]

^^ Thx for the update, Steeltown.
Great feature on the site: Why Hamilton? (http://www.theconnaught.ca/whyhamilton.html)
edit^^ I was all "sweet, they even mentioned Haunted Hamilton Ghost Walks"... then I realized that page was desgined by the HauntedHamilton.com organizers haha

The prices are a little much for Hamilton still.

[itsbryan]

^^ Thx for the update, Steeltown.
Great feature on the site: Why Hamilton? (http://www.theconnaught.ca/whyhamilton.html)
edit^^ I was all "sweet, they even mentioned Haunted Hamilton Ghost Walks"... then I realized that page was desgined by the HauntedHamilton.com organizers haha

The prices are a little much for Hamilton still.

It's sort of ironic, because they claim the Royal Connaught is haunted.. then again, they claim everything is haunted. :/

[DC83]

It's sort of ironic, because they claim the Royal Connaught is haunted.. then again, they claim everything is haunted. :/

HAHAHA so true.

I haven't heard of the Connaught being haunted before? Maybe the demo work woke some spirits up? Why not... it's a good story, and therefor a good sell ;)

[FairHamilton]

yup...bang on. I agree with all of this.

I'm absolutely amazed at how quickly the tide can turn. Wow, what a difference 3 weeks can make.

[SteelTown]

I can't remember who but someone mentioned if French doors used to be at the Connaught Hotel, well take a peek at this old picture of the Connaught......(Stinson would like to bring the French doors back)

http://www.theconnaught.ca/photo_connaught9_large.jpg

[thistleclub]

I can't remember who but someone mentioned if French doors used to be at the Connaught Hotel, well take a peek at this old picture of the Connaught......(Stinson would like to bring the French doors back)

http://www.theconnaught.ca/photo_connaught9_large.jpg

It was me. I wrote “French doors” but meant “French windows” (the larger windows indicated in the King and John rendering earlier on this page). French windows and Juliet balconies were mentioned as original elements of the building supposedly forsaken for energy savings. All I’ve seen (in 1916 architectural sketches, 1917/37/57 photos) are traditional sash windows and the familiar pair of ornamental Juliet balconies on the upper north face of the the 1930s wing. I understand the aesthetic appeal of more light and less brick, but I'm still curious about the heritage angle.

[raisethehammer]

I'm absolutely amazed at how quickly the tide can turn. Wow, what a difference 3 weeks can make.

please explain??
I haven't changed my tune.
If he closes the deal, I expect the units to sell out. As far as I could tell, everyone generally agreed that closing the deal would be the biggest obstacle....you'd like to hope that the Hamilton market will be able to fill this hotel conisdering the great designs and amenities being offered.

[FairHamilton]

please explain??
I haven't changed my tune.
If he closes the deal, I expect the units to sell out. As far as I could tell, everyone generally agreed that closing the deal would be the biggest obstacle....you'd like to hope that the Hamilton market will be able to fill this hotel conisdering the great designs and amenities being offered.

Your tone in the last day since learning of only 10 red dots has changed. Sorry, but your unbridled enthusiasm has been tempered.

I'll say it again, I hope the thing happens. But, I just can't see it.....

[BCTed]

Your tone in the last day since learning of only 10 red dots has changed. Sorry, but your unbridled enthusiasm has been tempered.

I'll say it again, I hope the thing happens. But, I just can't see it.....

raisethehammer definitely seems to be coming to grips with reality. While he now claims that financing was always a prime concern, RTH has made many posts in the past about how it was absolutely no issue and that Stinson had tons of people wanting to plop down cash because of all of the money he had made them in the past. Oh well, I like the new RTH better.

I am not hoping for Harry to go ahead with the purchase. It is better that this thing die a quick death than a slow, protracted one.

[HAMRetrofit]

My suggestion is to spray Zoloft over the entire city of Hamilton. I have never witnessed such negativity without cause. The project is neither down nor out. The project is barely in infancy and people are waving in the white towel. The marketing for this project has not even been launched.

[flar]

raisethehammer definitely seems to be coming to grips with reality. While he now claims that financing was always a prime concern, RTH has made many posts in the past about how it was absolutely no issue and that Stinson had tons of people wanting to plop down cash because of all of the money he had made them in the past. Oh well, I like the new RTH better.

I am not hoping for Harry to go ahead with the purchase. It is better that this thing die a quick death than a slow, protracted one.

So now you're changing your tune too? I thought you wanted to see the project succeed but were skeptical that it was possible.

Also, we haven't reached the closing date of the sale yet. If the end of June comes and the deal isn't closed, then we'll have a better idea of the project's status. Right now we don't have much to go on. Anyways, I think it's premature to say the project is dead. Stinson won't give up that easily even if he can't come up with the money now.

[BCTed]

So now you're changing your tune too? I thought you wanted to see the project succeed but were skeptical that it was possible.

Also, we haven't reached the closing date of the sale yet. If the end of June comes and the deal isn't closed, then we'll have a better idea of the project's status. Right now we don't have much to go on. Anyways, I think it's premature to say the project is dead. Stinson won't give up that easily even if he can't come up with the money now.

I don't believe that I have ever stated that I want this particular project to succeed. I would like to see a project of its type succeed, but I would not want Harry Stinson to be associated with any such success. My comment about hoping for him to not close was based on the supposition that this thing will not ever happen, so better that the whole idea of it die earlier than later.

As you have stated, I have no more evidence now that this thing will not happen than I did a few days ago. Maybe it is not truly dead, but I have never considered it to be truly alive either. Harry Stinson may not ever give up, but that does not mean that he will ever succeed.

But let's see how things play out.

[markbarbera]

Barring any unforeseen events, the purchase of the Connaught will close on June 30. Stinson has already secured financing for the purchase. His current fundraising efforts are to finance the development of the real estate.

The mindless chatter on here predicting the project's imminent failure is just that. While some posters have an obvious hate-on for Stinson and hope for his failure, this project remains on track.

You know, when Stinson said he wants to buy the Connaught, certain cynics here said the consortium would never sell to him. When he had his conditional offer dependant on financing, the same cynics said he'd never get the financing to remove the condition. When he secured the financing and firmed up the offer to purchase, the critics now say it will never close. As the closing date approaches, the cynics are already rewriting their song, now saying it will never be developed.

And so the song will continue. When the hotel is restored the same old gang will say the tower will never be built. When it is being built, they will say it will never be as tall as 100 storeys, continually revising their prediction of impending gloom on the outside hope that they will eventually be right on one of these calls.

Personally I could never understand why anyone would waste so much energy wishing failure on someone they hardly know, particularly when his success would have a positive impact on so many people. HAMretrofit is right. This city needs a big helping of happy juice.

[raisethehammer]

Barring any unforeseen events, the purchase of the Connaught will close on June 30. Stinson has already secured financing for the purchase. His current fundraising efforts are to finance the development of the real estate.

The mindless chatter on here predicting the project's imminent failure is just that. While some posters have an obvious hate-on for Stinson and hope for his failure, this project remains on track.

You know, when Stinson said he wants to buy the Connaught, certain cynics here said the consortium would never sell to him. When he had his conditional offer dependant on financing, the same cynics said he'd never get the financing to remove the condition. When he secured the financing and firmed up the offer to purchase, the critics now say it will never close. As the closing date approaches, the cynics are already rewriting their song, now saying it will never be developed.

And so the song will continue. When the hotel is restored the same old gang will say the tower will never be built. When it is being built, they will say it will never be as tall as 100 storeys, continually revising their prediction of impending gloom on the outside hope that they will eventually be right on one of these calls.

Personally I could never understand why anyone would waste so much energy wishing failure on someone they hardly know, particularly when his success would have a positive impact on so many people. HAMretrofit is right. This city needs a big helping of happy juice.


great post!
Thankfully, more and more people are moving to Hamilton who actually like it. Hopefully we can ignore the deadbeats.
Seeing all the improvements on the connaught website would seem to indicate that it's full steam ahead. someone wouldn't go through the trouble if they were shutting it down in a week.

And yes, to repeat for the billionth time - he does have money people wanting to get in on the action here. I'm not sure how else to state that.

[FairHamilton]

And yes, to repeat for the billionth time - he does have money people wanting to get in on the action here. I'm not sure how else to state that.

unless something changes in the next 7 days, I can't see him landing the financing with only 10-15 reservations made.

180 degrees from a few days ago. Not trying to be mean, just pointing out a fact.

[raisethehammer]

i think you're missing my point.
He HAS people who want to invest in this project and who believe in him.
But they aren't idiots. If nobody makes reservations for units, they aren't going to just give a pile of financing anyhow if the local market appears uninterested or unable to purchase.
My point is this - I don't think they're setting the bar too high or unreasonable. If they get a decent response I think they'll all go for it, because they believe in Harry.

I'd be more surprised than anyone if they don't land the financing, but also realize that these are smart business people and I can't see them forking out millions of dollars on 10 red dots.

[LikeHamilton]

How many units reserved has nothing to do with the purchase of the Connaught by Harry! He originally was not going to open the sales office until August. He has opened it early because the hype was there and he is trying to capitalize on it. At the presentation at the Chamber, he stated that he would be very happy if half where sold by closing. Some how here it has become he has to sell out or no deal. That was never his intent and he has never said that.

As to closing on the 30, this is a real-estate deal. A number of things can hold it up. Even if both side agree in principal and the money is there. Remember that lawyers are involved and they get paid by the hour. This is not TV where everything happens instantly and in one day. It is a complicated deal.

[raisethehammer]

most definitely.
I see you're point. He may have financial backing from various groups regardless of how many reservations are made.
I do think that once he owns the place, sales will start to increase nicely.

[BCTed]

Personally I could never understand why anyone would waste so much energy wishing failure on someone they hardly know, particularly when his success would have a positive impact on so many people.

His failures have had negative impacts on many people.

[markbarbera]

So, because of past 'failures' you wish further failure upon him?

You know, we get it. You don't like Stinson and you wish him ill will. Why continue trolling this thread about his project? It's not healthy.

[FairHamilton]

So, because of past 'failures' you wish further failure upon him?

You know, we get it. You don't like Stinson and you wish him ill will. Why continue trolling this thread about his project? It's not healthy.

I don't think there's any wishing of ill will on Stinson on this board. I think people are rightly skeptical because of his past performance.

IMO, there's nothing wrong with that position. You know, Stinson probably (most likely) knows that as well.

[raisethehammer]

His failures have had negative impacts on many people.

you're such a humanitarian.:worship:

[BCTed]

So, because of past 'failures' you wish further failure upon him?

From what I understand, Harry Stinson is a selfish and disingenuous and not particularly competent person who has left a trail of damage in his wake and has always blamed everyone else when things have gone wrong, so I do not believe he deserves success this time around (nor do I believe he will realize it).

You know, we get it. You don't like Stinson and you wish him ill will. Why continue trolling this thread about his project? It's not healthy.

I'm trolling? Every fourth post in the Lister Block thread is from raisethehammer calling LIUNA a bunch of criminals or slumlords and involves much harsher words than I use. Is that trolling?

I think I have seen a post from someone in that same thread that says "I want to punch Joe Mancinelli in the face." I do not wish Harry Stinson to be tormented with fire and brimstone, nor do I want to cause him physical harm. May he live a long and happy life as a children's entertainer or whatever it is that he is good at.

[matt602]

So... Millstone is NOT Harry Stinson, right?

[markbarbera]

I don't think there's any wishing of ill will on Stinson on this board.

I beg to differ...

From what I understand, Harry Stinson is a selfish and disingenuous and not particularly competent person who has left a trail of damage in his wake and has always blamed everyone else when things have gone wrong, so I do not believe he deserves success this time around (nor do I believe he will realize it).

[raisethehammer]

"from what you understand"??
yea, you also 'understand' the truck traffic problem downtown and the problem with one-way streets very nicely.

I know folks who were involved in 1KW with Stinson who believe the complete opposite to be true...that the Mirvish's turned on Harry and are the 'bad guys'.
Who is right?? Does it really matter? Who would you rather have come here and develop this? Trump? Yea, he's a fine gentleman who's never intentionally hurt anyone.
Please quit wasting our time.

[BCTed]

"from what you understand"??
yea, you also 'understand' the truck traffic problem downtown and the problem with one-way streets very nicely.

I know folks who were involved in 1KW with Stinson who believe the complete opposite to be true...that the Mirvish's turned on Harry and are the 'bad guys'.
Who is right?? Does it really matter? Who would you rather have come here and develop this? Trump? Yea, he's a fine gentleman who's never intentionally hurt anyone.
Please quit wasting our time.

Yes, "from what I understand." I do not actually know Harry Stinson. He may well be a wonderful human being, but I do not believe it to be true from what I understand. Unlike you, I do not know everything there is to know about everything.

Every time you want to bring me down, you bring up this truck thing. I don't even know what you are talking about --- I never made a false or inaccurate statement regarding trucks --- but it is completely irrelevant.

I sense that you have an abundance of time to waste, but in case you do not, feel free to hit the ignore button and you will have your time back.

[fastcarsfreedom]

I just want the damn hotel restored--anything that happens beyond that is gravy. Frankly speaking, Stinson's most recent proposal has whittled down the hotel portion of the complex even more...something I don't find positive at all...Nonetheless, I feel compelled to add my voice on one other point--BCTed is not "trolling" and though he may sometimes make statements that might be taken by some as incendiary--there are plenty of "impassioned" statements made here that are of equal or greater bombast--plenty of posters here have strongly disagreed with the points I've made, and I've yet to brand any of those people as "trolls"...because disagreeing or taking a different 'side' does not make someone a troll...if BCTed took the other side of this argument using similar conviction--he'd be hailed a hero.

[FairHamilton]

I beg to differ...

Perhaps, I should have said the 'project' and not Stinson. Or perhaps, I should have just kept quiet ;)

[raisethehammer]

today is D-day. Anyone hear anything yet?

[SteelTown]

No...no at the stroke of midnight is D-day.

[SteelTown]

Talks to restore Connaught continue

June 30, 2008

By WADE HEMSWORTH
The Hamilton Spectator

The sale of Hamilton’s historic Connaught Hotel that was scheduled to close Monday continues to hang in the balance.

Developer Harry Stinson had put down a $100,000 deposit on the downtown hotel in February, working toward the June 30 closing date, when he was to pay the balance of his $9.5-million offer to the Hamilton-based owners and take possession of the property.

As the deadline approached, Stinson and Tony Battaglia, who represents the vendors’ group, started talking about ways to close the deal.

Neither side was commenting publicly Monday, other than to say they were working to reach a deal soon, and expected to go beyond the original deadline.

Stinson, 55, plans to refurbish the 1916 hotel, turning the upper floors into offices and condominiums, while operating the lower four floors as a traditional hotel with a grand lobby, bar, ballroom and other features. 

whemsworth@thespec.com
905-526-3254

[SteelTown]

Sounds like Tony Battaglia wants to be part of the Connaught development. I suspect the deal will be lowered if Mr.Battaglia is part of the development.

[WhipperSnapper]

not good if he doesn't even have the funds arranged to buy the building ... not surprising either though. I certainly would run as fast as I could from a limited partnership with Stinson given his infamous reputation.

[AndrewJ3D]

Stinson's a tool and can't even pay my friend the $14,000 he owes him for past renders of Sapphire Tower.

[raisethehammer]

$14,000?? Those were some horrible renderings. Good luck getting that money.

[screenplaying]

Am I going to be allowed to laugh if/when the words "joint venture" enter the Stinson public lexicon?

[BCTed]

$14,000?? Those were some horrible renderings. Good luck getting that money.

Yeah, he doesn't deserve a penny because the work clearly did not take any time or effort and was not usable.

[BCTed]

A friend of mine thought he saw Stinson driving an older model white mini-van recently. Is old Harry sporting a longer hairdo these days?

[Millstone]

$14,000?? Those were some horrible renderings. Good luck getting that money.

Dude, please.

[FairHamilton]

Stinson's a tool and can't even pay my friend the $14,000 he owes him for past renders of Sapphire Tower.

Apparently, not the only money he can't come up with, http://thespec.com/News/Local/article/395924

[matt602]

Well I'm pretty sure I've lost any hope of this project ever going anywhere, as far as Harry is concerned. If he can't even close the $9.5 Mil on the hotel, I don't know how he expects to get anyone to take his 100 story tower seriously.

What a damn shame it is, it was a nice concept minus the huge tower. I was excited about the retail part.

[Millstone]

What a damn shame it is, it was a nice concept minus the huge tower. I was excited about the retail part.

Yeah I have to say, a 24-hour grocery downtown would be the bee's knees.

[WhipperSnapper]

$14,000?? Those were some horrible renderings. Good luck getting that money.

to be clear, he's taking about Sapphire in Toronto and not the Hamilton shard. Otherwise, you're kidding, right?

[markbarbera]

Regardless of the quality of the renders, it isn't Stinson he should be after at this point but the trustees for the bankruptcy proceedings for Stinson Properties. The sale of the sapphire property will allow for a better than average recoup rate for creditors (somewhere around 80%) Of course, if he hadn't bothered to list as a creditor months ago he's probably SOL.

[DC83]

Well I'm pretty sure I've lost any hope of this project ever going anywhere, as far as Harry is concerned. If he can't even close the $9.5 Mil on the hotel, I don't know how he expects to get anyone to take his 100 story tower seriously.

What a damn shame it is, it was a nice concept minus the huge tower. I was excited about the retail part.

I understand why he annouced that tower: exposure. I don't think the tower was ever really serious. All I cared about was the Connaught itself, everything else (grocery store, cafe, etc) was just a bonus.

Can we still just do the Connaught reno, Harry? Pleeeeeaaaaase?!?! haha

[AndrewJ3D]

$14,000?? Those were some horrible renderings. Good luck getting that money.

These renderings you fool, any kid with sketch-up could have spat out the shit he's using in Hamilton.

He also did the shadow study for him a lot of other design work. In fact the final design was a good portion my friends with Harry just giving rough clues as to what he wanted. The one without the Dubai ball on top. Harry also wanted all that cheesy lens flare.



http://bricks.labattracks.net/kiwanis/temp2/ST/SapphireTower3.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a259/TOBoy/SapphireTower-1122ft.jpg

[AndrewJ3D]

Regardless of the quality of the renders, it isn't Stinson he should be after at this point but the trustees for the bankruptcy proceedings for Stinson Properties. The sale of the sapphire property will allow for a better than average recoup rate for creditors (somewhere around 80%) Of course, if he hadn't bothered to list as a creditor months ago he's probably SOL.

Well without going into much detail lets just say he can't do that and has learned a valuable lesson about contracts.

[FairHamilton]

Well without going into much detail lets just say he can't do that and has learned a valuable lesson about contracts.

And an expensive one.

[the dude]

so, is this project officially dead or what?

[Millstone]

so, is this project officially dead or what?

I was sitting in Subway and noticed the door to 'the Connaught' sales centre was open, so he must be hanging in there.

[omro]

http://bricks.labattracks.net/kiwanis/temp2/ST/SapphireTower3.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a259/TOBoy/SapphireTower-1122ft.jpg



I hope they don't build that, it looks like a lighthouse. All it needs are the red and white stripes and rotating light ontop :haha:

[LikeHamilton]

so, is this project officially dead or what?

Why would it be dead? This is real-estate, and a complicated one with a lot of money and conditions. They rarely close on schedule. My wife has done a lot of real-estate deals in the past where she works and she is not surprised. She is also familiar with the present ownership group and she said she would not be surprised if the present group was playing hard ball and trying to squeeze as much as they can out of Harry such as money, conditions and buy back into the project. If someone digs their heals in on a condition, one little item can hold up a project like this for weeks even month. And we all know how interested the present ownership group is on really saving this building. They have control of the sale as there is no one else wanting the building and Harry wants it badly.

[raisethehammer]

so funny how people actually WANT this to fail.
Imagine how many pages of SSP we'd fill up if we all suggested every project was dead that didn't go exactly as planned.
I'm not sure that any in TO have ever had that happen. It's not going to be any different here.
Let's wait and see what happens instead of wishing bad luck on someone trying to do something great for our city.

[BCTed]

She is also familiar with the present ownership group and she said she would not be surprised if the present group was playing hard ball and trying to squeeze as much as they can out of Harry such as money, conditions and buy back into the project. If someone digs their heals in on a condition, one little item can hold up a project like this for weeks even month. And we all know how interested the present ownership group is on really saving this building. They have control of the sale as there is no one else wanting the building and Harry wants it badly.

How is it that the fact that nobody else wants the building means that the current group holds control? All else equal, the fact that Harry is the only bidder means that he has a more powerful position than he would if there were multiple people trying to purchase the building.

I have seen a few suggestions that the current group may want "buy back" or some kind of continued involvement in the project post-sale. My suspicion, however ungrounded, is not that they want to remain involved, but that Harry Stinson wants them to remain involved because he cannot raise money for the full purchase.

While such deals are certainly complicated and can drag on, the fact that we have not heard of completion on this sale does indeed mean that the "end of June, possibly sooner" tune that we heard a while back was incorrect. The fact that unit layouts and pricing seem to be changing on a weekly basis are also not good signs for this project --- heck, even the tower went from 80 stories to 50-60 back to 100 in a matter of weeks. It seems like this whole thing is being held together by duct tape.

[the dude]

so funny how people actually WANT this to fail.
Imagine how many pages of SSP we'd fill up if we all suggested every project was dead that didn't go exactly as planned.
I'm not sure that any in TO have ever had that happen. It's not going to be any different here.
Let's wait and see what happens instead of wishing bad luck on someone trying to do something great for our city.

hmmm best not to overreact to a simple question. it's just that i'm living on another continent right now and have no idea what's happening. i thought some sort of deadline had passed...whatever.

[raisethehammer]

I wasn't referring to you dude.
I'm referring to those who are taking great delight in the slower than advertised process so far.
You certainly have been a great Hamilton-booster. I know that you'd want this project to succeed as much as any of us. Hopefully it will.

[BCTed]

I wasn't referring to you dude.
I'm referring to those who are taking great delight in the slower than advertised process so far.
You certainly have been a great Hamilton-booster. I know that you'd want this project to succeed as much as any of us. Hopefully it will.

You really should stop associating passion for the city with passion for this project. If Harry Stinson does go through with the purchase, then you pretty much know that the whole renovation will proceed along on a shoestring budget and corners will be cut. ($180 million for a whole renovation plus a 100 story tower??)

If there is indeed a valid business opportunity here, then someone other than Harry Stinson can come along and have at it. If there is no valid business opportunity, then its best that this thing be killed sooner rather than later.

[BCTed]

Let's wait and see what happens instead of wishing bad luck on someone trying to do something great for our city.

Harry Stinson is trying to do something great for himself, and the fact that Hamilton is involved is just a side detail --- he is not trying to do the city any special favours. He could just as easily be in Toronto or New York or Brantford, and probably rather would be in some of these places if he thought he could make a go of things there. When I combine these details with his past record and my expectation that this project will be a dog, it is difficult to cheer for it.

Jim Balsillie is an example of a guy who is trying to do something great for the city. He is trying to land a hockey team specifically within the city of Hamilton --- he does not want a team in Pittsburgh or Nashville or Kitchener or Toronto. When I combine these details with the fact that I know Jim can put his money where his mouth is, it is very easy to cheer for him and his NHL bid.

[matt602]

I would rather the building sat empty instead of have a poorly constructed project put into it. Same goes for the Lister Block and any other heritage property in the city.

[SteelTown]

Still no deal on Connaught development

Harry Stinson is still working to close the deal for the Connaught.

The developer who plans to renovate the downtown Hamilton hotel is negotiating with the local consortium that owns it.

Stinson’s $9.5-million purchase of the hotel was to have closed June 30. That deadline passed with both sides continuing to talk, but declining to reveal what issues might be on the table, or when a deal might be reached.

“I am determined to see the project happen,” Stinson says.

Stinson plans to renovate and expand the existing hotel building, turning the upper floors into condominiums and offices, while operating the lower floors as a boutique hotel.

When that stage is complete, he plans to build 80 storeys of condominiums
where the Connaught parking lot is now located.

[drpgq]

Ugh. Connaught saga continues.

Wade Hemsworth
The Hamilton Spectator
(Jul 30, 2008)

The owners of the Connaught have pulled the plug on developer Harry Stinson's offer to buy the downtown Hamilton hotel, but the drama is hardly over yet.

Both sides are working separately to put together a new deal that would bring the Connaught back to life, a deal that may or may not see them working together.

The local investors who accepted Stinson's $9.5 million offer in February had already extended his deadline to put the money together to June 30.

Now, a month later, they say it's time to move on, which means the offer expires and Stinson forfeits his $100,000 deposit.

"Anything that would happen from here on in would be a new deal," said Tony Battaglia, a member of the owners' group. "The original deal is null and void, and we're carrying on pursuing our other options."

Both sides are trying to put together the tens of millions in financing it will take just to get the empty hotel open and running again.

"I think that within the next few weeks, one way or the other we'll come to a conclusion as to whether we can structure this or not," Stinson said.

The owners group is meeting today to talk about its plans for moving on without Stinson, knowing -- as he does -- that the financial market is much tighter now than it was five months ago, when the group accepted the offer.

"This was a difficult project to finance from Day 1," Battaglia said, "and I would say at this point in the game, it's probably even more difficult than it was before we received the offer from Harry."

Meanwhile, Stinson is unbowed, continuing to work long hours in the sales office he opened last month at King and James -- three blocks west of the Connaught.

Gord Moodie, a development consultant in the city's downtown renewal office, has been working for months on the Connaught file, and believes a deal could actually be closer than it appears.

"I look at it very positively," Moodie said. "Another week and I think we'll have a really good idea of what's happening."

Battaglia estimates it would take $36 million to rebuild the existing hotel, which his group bought in 2005 and had gutted prior to accepting Stinson's offer five months ago.

He said he and his partners -- who include hotelier Oscar Kichi, builder Ted Valeri, union head Joe Mancinelli and banker Mario Frankovich -- are going back to their original plan for the site, which includes rebuilding the interior of the 1916 hotel, building a parking garage and, later, a modest condo tower above the garage.

At the same time, Battaglia said, the group is open to offers from other developers -- including Stinson.

Stinson is working on a plan that would see him make a new offer, one that would feature a mix of investors including the current owners as mortgage holders until construction begins.

His proposal to restore the hotel and later build a 1,000-foot condo tower has generated intense interest, he said, but potential buyers have been reluctant to commit before he closes the deal.

"If we had a nickel for everybody who has said, 'Call us when you've closed,' we probably could have financed the building," he said.

To pass muster with the owners, Stinson said, any new offer from him will have to include proof of substantial outside financing.

"I appreciate that, and I wouldn't have the nerve to show up and say, 'Here, I've got another napkin with some ideas written on it.' "

whemsworth@thespec.com

905-526-3254

[BCTed]

Well, the Connaught deal is dead, but Harry claims that he is still going to give things another shot. My favourite part of the article is Harry saying that he "wouldn't have the nerve to show up and say, 'Here, I've got another napkin with some ideas written on it.' " He certainly had the nerve to show up with nothing but a napkin once.

I am doing my best to resist the urge to quote the people who said "Who said he was having trouble obtaining financing?" and "BCTed will be eating crow come spring" and "I will be buying three units". Please forgive me if I do ultimately give in to my urges --- a lot of people needlessly threw the whole "look, a 100 story tower is coming" in my face and I am only human. In the meantime, I hope that most of us can agree that this whole Stinson thing was a sham and a waste of time and that Hamilton would be better off if he just left the picture.

[SteelTown]

Should be interesting in what happens next from either sides. Harry at least got the ball rolling again.

[BCTed]

Should be interesting in what happens next from either sides. Harry at least got the ball rolling again.

I don't think he has gotten anything rolling. If you take the below excerpt at face value, he has done nothing other than to set things back:

The owners group is meeting today to talk about its plans for moving on without Stinson, knowing -- as he does -- that the financial market is much tighter now than it was five months ago, when the group accepted the offer.

"This was a difficult project to finance from Day 1," Battaglia said, "and I would say at this point in the game, it's probably even more difficult than it was before we received the offer from Harry."

[SteelTown]

They've bought the Connaught for what 5 or 3 years now? Everything keeps getting stalled with them and plans changes each year. There was even rumours the group was ready to claim bankruptcy. They'll probably end up using Stinson as an scapegoat to blame that they can't get financing now.

Now it looks like Harry helped convince the guys to do something instead of sitting around waiting for a miracle to happen.

[raisethehammer]

so, if I understand this, the deal is dead, but it's not really dead??
Interesting. Sounds like he's working well with this group of 'developers' so far.
Kind of surprised to hear that.
Harry has correctly identified the problem though - him not owning it. I know a bunch of people who have said that very same thing. I wonder how many others are in the same boat?

[highwater]

I don't think he has gotten anything rolling. If you take the below excerpt at face value, he has done nothing other than to set things back:

It's more difficult because the market has changed, not because Harry gave it cooties.

[BCTed]

They've bought the Connaught for what 5 or 3 years now? Everything keeps getting stalled with them and plans changes each year. There was even rumours the group was ready to claim bankruptcy. They'll probably end up using Stinson as an scapegoat to blame that they can't get financing now.

Now it looks like Harry helped convince the guys to do something instead of sitting around waiting for a miracle to happen.

Harry Stinson has made no contribution here. What he has done is wasted time --- whether or not that time would have been wasted regardless is another story and is hardly relevant.

To suggest that Stinson has somehow inspired these guys and spurred them into action is a huge stretch. I doubt that his appearance on the scene has changed their modus operandi in any way.

[FairHamilton]

so, if I understand this, the deal is dead, but it's not really dead??
Interesting. Sounds like he's working well with this group of 'developers' so far.
Kind of surprised to hear that.
Harry has correctly identified the problem though - him not owning it. I know a bunch of people who have said that very same thing. I wonder how many others are in the same boat?

It's dead! Do you really believe the current group has the money and the vision? Do you really believe Stinson with his now increased credibility will be able to raise money more easily?

No, the problem was him not having enough financing to get the deal off the ground.

If he had even 1/5th of the money needed lined up ahead of time, he could have bought the property and started. But, he had nothing and hoped others would deposit their hard earned money, so his under-financed deal would fly.

And even then he wasn't 100% sure that would have worked, "probably"........

"If we had a nickel for everybody who has said, 'Call us when you've closed,' we probably could have financed the building," he said.

All this served was to spark debate on the board, and give the news media something to talk about.

[thistleclub]

[Battaglia] said he and his partners -- who include hotelier Oscar Kichi, builder Ted Valeri, union head Joe Mancinelli and banker Mario Frankovich -- are going back to their original plan for the site, which includes rebuilding the interior of the 1916 hotel, building a parking garage and, later, a modest condo tower above the garage.

At the same time, Battaglia said, the group is open to offers from other developers -- including Stinson.

Harry didn't seem to be a fan of the original design. Could be a source of friction. Unless "going back to their original plan for the site" is a threat.

[SteelTown]

At CHML it says the group wants to join with a developer, someone else or Stinson. They can't do it alone. I'll get the article from CHML.

[SteelTown]

Connaught sale is over

Hamilton Spectator
7/30/2008

The deal to sell the Connaught Hotel in downtown Hamilton to developer Harry Stinson is dead.

The owners have decided not to extend the deadline for Stinson's 9.5 million dollar offer any further.

The deal was originally supposed to close at the end of June.

But the Spectator says Stinson has had trouble financing the deal.

It would have seen the restoration of the Connaught along with a new condo tower.

The owners will meet today to talk about thier next step and see whether they should make another effort to work with Stinson or look at other developers.

The Spec says Stinson is working on a plan to make a new offer with a mix of investors.

[markbarbera]

The most important part of the article drpgq posted was in this segment:


Gord Moodie, a development consultant in the city's downtown renewal office, has been working for months on the Connaught file, and believes a deal could actually be closer than it appears.

"I look at it very positively," Moodie said. "Another week and I think we'll have a really good idea of what's happening."


The original deal between Battaglia and Stinson may have died, but the restoration project in general has not. Obviously something else is cooking. Let's see what transpires in the next week or so.

[coalminecanary]

I have heard that there are certain investors who are interested in becoming part of this - and more importantly that there are certain investors (one in particular) who WERE involved under harry and who the current owners specifically did not want being involved. So god only knows what's cooking in the back rooms.

Of course this is all hearsay and sounds very cryptic to me but it came via someone I trust.

I want to remain optimistic about this development, but as with all major projects I always have a bit of a pessimistic feeling that it'll never happen. Just like Lister, Main Street fed building, 220 dundurn, hilton... sigh.

[raisethehammer]

as Harry said on CHML today, this is typical of a complex business deal.
Look at how long Trump tower in TO has been going on, and Bay Adelaide Centre etc.....
The story isn't over yet. Not by a long shot.

[WhipperSnapper]

^Comparing a long term commercial investment project such as Bay Adelaide to a one time payout, condominium development is naive to say the least. Trump is only being built because someone else setup to the plate to start it all over again. I question who in Hamilton/rest of the GTA will step forward should Harry be just puffing smoke now. It doesn't look good when Stinson is the only one to show any interest.

[matt602]

I honestly like the Consortium's original plan for the building/site better than Harry's. They seemed to want to use a lot more of the hotel as traditional hotel space instead of offices and condo space. I think that's something that the downtown could use more of vs. office/condo space. Oscar Kichi isn't dumping millions into the Crowne Plaza for nothing. He sees the demand. So do Days Inn and whoever steps up to buy the Sheraton (I remember that being mentioned a couple of months ago but not a peep since).

[fastcarsfreedom]

I'm with matt602--reviving the Connaught as a hotel through-and-through is the best course--in my opinion at least. The original plan to restore and reopen under the Renaissance brand had real merit--and hopefully we see something similar to that orignal plan go forward.

The fact that Stinson would mention the Bay Adelaide Center in comparison to this project shows the disregard he has for the intelligence of the general public. I have restrained my contempt for his bluster in the past in the hope that this project could go forward--but the best thing for everyone involved is for him to get out of dodge and as far away from the Connaught as possible--let him revive the Sapphire in Brantford or Cornwall or wherever he turns up next.

[markbarbera]

I disagree that the original plans for the Connaught set out by Battaglia et al are the most desireable for the connaught's restoration. If it was, how can you explain four years of failed attempts to secure the financial backing to see that plan through?

[raisethehammer]

FYI...I mentioned Bay Adelaide Centre, not Harry. He simply mentioned how it's not uncommon for TO projects to take several years to get off the ground.

I like Harry's vision far more than any other so far. He is bringing a huge amount of residents, boutique hotel space, full grocery store, cafe, office space, retail galleria etc..... it's perfect for downtown Hamilton.

[fastcarsfreedom]

In a perfect world, the market demand for thousands of condo units would exist and builders and lenders would be clamouring to do business in Hamilton. Alas, that is not the case. Some components, such as a grocery retailer, are absolutely believable. Otherwise, he showed up--in his own words--with a napkin.

As for the failure to obtain financing for the original Renaissance plan--I don't have the facts regarding their failure to fund the completion of the project. The tightening lending market was a likely factor, as is the continuing air of skepticism surrounding doing business downtown. Given the current excitement over the local hotel market--I would argue the business case for a 200 room hotel in that building is fairly solid--Oscar was certainly successful in patching over the neighboring Ramada--once among the worst hotels in the region--to the upscale Crowne Plaza brand. You may recall that a condo component in the original plan was removed at the insistence of Marriott, who wanted the site to be hotel-only.

[matt602]

Honestly the grocery store was the only component of his design that I really wanted to see. I've never been a fan of the ridiculously over zealous condo project nor the incredibly reduced hotel presence in the original building(s). I think what the original Connaught building(s) needs is a reputable hotel chain to pick up the project and restore under their banner. Mariott was good, I think Fairmont would have been perfect. If it was really a matter of surroundings that shyed them from the deal, somebody should really go back to them to try and court them again. They obviously were interested in the building itself and owning a hotel like the Connaught in a city like Hamilton that is about to re-invent itself in the way that it will be would do well for them (ok that was a bit of a weird sentence but I think you get my point).

I just really don't want to see the Connaught re-used for things that it has never been in the past. I'm traditional. It was built as a hotel, it functioned as that for more than 80 years and it should continue like that for years to come. Something about "The Royal Connaught Condominium's" sounds awkward to me. I think there's plenty of other great sites, even within the same block as the Connaught that would serve better as condominium space. Leave our hotel alone :(

[markbarbera]

Hmmm. I sense a double-standard here. Stinson is unable to secure financing for his proposal within four months of it being made and people dismiss his plans as bluster and are calling for him to be run out of town. Battaglia et al can't come up with the funds over a four year period and they are viewed sympathetically as victims of a tightening lending market.

Suck and blow at the same time, and you're bound to choke yourself...

[matt602]

Well, for the record I'm just as disappointed with Battaglia as I am with Stinson. I just think their plans for the building were more feasible. I still agree with the bottom line, which is that neither of them were able to realize their plans, and because of that the building is still vacant, and being stripped of copper with each passing day. I figured it wouldn't be too long before that resource was found out.

[raisethehammer]

I'm still 100% hoping that Stinson can pull it off. I have no faith/use for the other guys.

[BCTed]

Hmmm. I sense a double-standard here. Stinson is unable to secure financing for his proposal within four months of it being made and people dismiss his plans as bluster and are calling for him to be run out of town. Battaglia et al can't come up with the funds over a four year period and they are viewed sympathetically as victims of a tightening lending market.

Suck and blow at the same time, and you're bound to choke yourself...

This board is full of double standards.

Anyway, I do not sympathize with the current group and do not really know much about it, but I am willing to cut the people in the group more slack than Harry Stinson for a number of reasons:
- Harry's "vision" really is little more than an idea on a napkin. His whole plan came together over the course of a few months
- These guys are Hamiltonians
- As far as I know, these guys are successful businessmen
- Harry has a terrible track record and very little credibility in the eyes of people that matter
- These guys actually own the building
- My guess is that it is more likely that these guys could make a go of things without Harry than it is that Harry could make a go of things without them
- I believe that they have come pretty close to making things happen in the past (was there a conditional agreement with Marriot?)
- Harry's proposal is wild and unrealistic, at least in my eyes. What the current ownership group has proposed in the past has been much more believable and achievable

Maybe these guys suck, but Harry sucks more. I do not understand where the fierce loyalty to this guy comes from. He has done absolutely nothing for this city and I do not see any indications that he ever will.

[fastcarsfreedom]

I am disappointed that the current ownership group couldn't realize it's original plan--I would hardly say I was "sympathetic". Nonetheless, they have a track record of completing viable projects--and Kischi has a proven track record in hospitality. My point is that if financing cannot be obtained under those circumstances, it is highly...ummm...optimistic to suggest that Stinson could obtain financing given his checkered development track record.

As for sucking and blowing...well...comments like that leave you wide open. It is nonetheless the basic principle for jet propulsion--that seems to work fairly well.

[raisethehammer]

"checkered development track record".
What the heck category does Kichi fall into then???

[BCTed]

"checkered development track record".
What the heck category does Kichi fall into then???

I don't know anything about Kichi, but this portfolio looks very okay (and very real) to me:

Marriott Courtyard
Marriott Renaissance
Marriott Burlington
Fairfield Inn & Suites
Crowne Plaza Hamilton
Airport Inn Hamilton
The George Hamilton Convention Centre

Please do go ahead and explain about Kichi --- but whatever you say about Kichi, there is no getting around Harry Stinson's past. "Checkered" is a very gracious way of describing it.

I walked into Stinson's sales office once. Rather than being printed as a nice glossy pamphlet, the promotional literature consisted of a bunch of poor photocopies that seemed hurriedly stapled together --- the papers were not even aligned. The package had an extremely unprofessional feel to it and was very representative of Stinson to me --- there was no way that I felt at all assured that this was anything more than a fly-by-night operation. I defy anyone who visited that office to challenge me on this point.

I ask again: What is with the blind loyalty to a guy like this?

[adam]

Things in the downtown are slowly gaining momentum. Its tough for most of us to wait this one out, but it'll happen eventually. Harry would have given the place a lot of quirky personality that most people would have liked. He played the role of hero and underdog very well, the city's coming around slowly but surely!

[SteelTown]

I suspect we'll see a 50 storey condo tower proposal from the current owners. Instead of the original two 25 storey condo buildings, merge them together for 50 storey. When I saw the rendering I wasn't flattered, it's something you see in London, Ont (white apartments with glass balcony).

The current owners will probably have Stinson on board for the condo tower alone, not the hotel. They'll use Stinson to promote the condo building.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Thought everyone would be interested to know that on a visit to one of our local Ontario Travel Information Centres I obtained a nice, glossy brochure for the Royal Connaught Howard Johnson Plaza Hotel. I'm guessing it was the last pamphlet produced as it refers to the restaurant as the "Connaught Cafe" as opposed to Fran's. Still, seems to me Tourism Hamilton ought to be doing some better outreach.

[matt602]

Heh, I wonder how many tourists have been wondering around the front of the hotel, baffled at the empty windows and wooden boards. Poor shmucks.