Rapid Transit

[thistleclub]

people will use 'train' or 'light rail' most likely.
unless we name it...in Portland it was called 'The Max'.
Everyone would just say "let's take the Max downtown" etc....

I find that people generally go with the fewest syllables... "car" over "auto," for example, or "bus" over "HSR" (except in semi-formal talk, when directing newcomers, or cases where you want to make a branding distinction, "bus" is intra-urban and "GO" is inter-urban... Burlington Transit and Greyhound/Canada Coach get the short end of the stick but whatever). Portland's handle is smart in that regard.

[BrianE]

A little diversion.

What do canadians call their LRTs?

We British call them trams.

Would the LRT trains in Hamilton be trams, trolleys, streetcars, or something else? What's the correct term?

I love cultural 'memes' like this. It's almost impossible to predict what naming convention will eventualy win out in the end. My personal favorite is the South Lake Union Transit in Seattle. I'm sure there's no end to the 'riding the SLUT' jokes.

Hamilton has some great naming memes going on with "The Linc" "The Gore" "Limeridge" "Copps" "RBG". It seems like the Red Hill Parkway is simply becoming "The Red Hill", RHVP is not catching on.

In the end I think the LRT system will be commonly refered to as "The B-Line" and "The A-Line" and all other public transit will just be "The Bus"

[markbarbera]

I'm talking about when the removed all the overhead wires.
Ridership plummeted by almost 10 million per year.
Recent years it's begun to go back up, but nowhere near it's highest levels.

Can you point me to these figures? Te only downward blip I have seen is in 1998/99. I don't recall a drop in 1991, the year the HSR retired electric trolley buses.

[SteelTown]

Funding The Big Question Around Light Rail
Ken Mann
10/6/2008

Words of caution in regards to the possibility of a light rail transit system in Hamilton.

City politicians stress that while they are supportive of the concept, the 1.1 billion dollar cost of building it must be paid for by the province.

Councillor Chad Collins among those stressing that it's a "non-starter" if the province doesn't foot the bill. Ancaster's Lloyd Ferguson describes it as the potential "show-stopper".

Beyond that he remains strongly behind the project, especially after studying light rail transit systems in Calgary, Charlotte and Portland.

Ferguson stresses that riders would love it, adding that the economic uptake would help our downtown prosper.

The plan calls for light rail transit along an east-west line between McMaster University and Eastgale Square, and north-south between the west harbour and the airport.

Metrolinx chair Rob MacIsaac will be in town on Tuesday afternoon to answer questions about the proposal. He'll be speaking to a committee of the local chamber of commerce.

[LikeHamilton]

LRTs 'boost economies'

Buses have 'a stigma,' says Eisenberger

Eric McGuinness
The Hamilton Spectator

(Oct 7, 2008)
Mayor Fred Eisenberger expects light rail transit to boost Hamilton's economy as well as its public transit ridership.

"There's a significant economic uptake you don't get with bus rapid transit," he told council's public works committee yesterday.

The mayor and councillors who visited Calgary, Charlotte, N.C., and Portland, Ore., all report light rail boosted development in those cities, especially downtown.

Eisenberger said he hasn't heard one Hamiltonian say rapid transit is a bad idea -- either bus rapid transit or light rail transit -- but most favour light rail because it's more likely to be used "no matter what your income or station in life."

"Light rail appeals to everyone. There's a stigma attached to buses in every community that does not attach to light rail."

The mayor said he's counting on Metrolinx, the provincial transportation planning agency, to include at least one Hamilton light rail transit line in its first five-year budget due in November.

If that happens, "we will have achieved a huge success in getting our share of funding."

Jill Stephen, manager of strategic planning, reminded councillors that Metrolinx's recently released 25-year draft plan identifies two Hamilton rapid transit routes in the first 15 years -- a crosstown B line from Eastgate Square to University Plaza and a north-south A line from the waterfront to the airport with a link to Lime Ridge Mall.

Scott Stewart, general manager of public works, said the A and B lines together would cost an estimated $1.1 billion, and unless that comes from the province, the project is a non-starter.

City staff suggest priority go to the B line because it would attract more passengers right away, cost less to build and be more likely to spur redevelopment.

Stephen said public opinion favours light rail running two ways on the same street, rather than east on Main and west on King as buses do now. Planners also now think it's possible to dedicate a lane to transit east of the Delta, an idea ruled out earlier.

"We want to make sure, when we make decisions on where things go, we understand where all users will fit on the right-of-way."

Ancaster Councillor Lloyd Ferguson noted that the Ontario government has committed $11.5 billion to get started on the $50-to-$55-billion, 25-year plan and has asked the federal government to contribute $6 billion more.

With a week to go in the federal election, he suggested Hamilton voters ask candidates where they stand on providing the money.

emcguinness@thespec.com

905-526-4650

[omro]

Stephen said public opinion favours light rail running two ways on the same street, rather than east on Main and west on King as buses do now. Planners also now think it's possible to dedicate a lane to transit east of the Delta, an idea ruled out earlier.

"We want to make sure, when we make decisions on where things go, we understand where all users will fit on the right-of-way."


Cool :)

[raisethehammer]

if by chance they do run the LRT one-way on King and Main they should do it in the opposite curb lanes than the buses currently use.

2-way on Main makes sense, although the stretch of King from Wentworth to the Delta would virtually see no spinoff from LRT in that it's quite a walk from King to Main at that point.
That's the ONLY reason I might like to see LRT on both streets - it would give both streets a boost.

[SteelTown]

^ That's the main reason why I support LRT on both King and Main, help revitalize both streets at the same time with the help of Metrolinx's funding.

If we do LRT only on Main, than it's likely the city will have to pay for streetscaping King by itself and that will probably take 10 years to complete with phases. Look how long it's taking to just to King from Queen to James, been approved since 2001 I believe.

[raisethehammer]

I walked from the B-Line stop at Main/Longwood into Westdale today (King&Marion).
It took 4.5 minutes. Not bad at all. Having LRT that close to the centre of Westdale will be good for them.
Anyone have any nifty name ideas for an LRT system??
Portlands is called the Max, but that actually stands for Metropolitan Area Express....of course, not a single soul ever calls it that. haha. It's always 'MAX'.

[raisethehammer]

does anyone know what the cost is for JUST the B-Line LRT??

[SteelTown]

Think around $400 million. You can probably find the figure around the beginning of this thread.

[SteelTown]

"The capital costs of providing LRT are estimated at of $15 million/km for one-way streets and $25 million/km for two-way streets, plus $4 million for each LRT vehicle required."

Find how many km for B-Line and times it $15,000,000 for one way or $25,000,000 for two way.

[omro]

^ That's the main reason why I support LRT on both King and Main, help revitalize both streets at the same time with the help of Metrolinx's funding.

If we do LRT only on Main, than it's likely the city will have to pay for streetscaping King by itself and that will probably take 10 years to complete with phases. Look how long it's taking to just to King from Queen to James, been approved since 2001 I believe.

I don't agree, because King is the primary shopping strip of the downtown.

I'm going to be hypothetical here, so suspend your disbelief and humour me.

Assume LRT never happens, but the all day link to Toronto does.

Assume that more people from Toronto move into the downtown with their higher incomes and spending habits, to take advantage of the cheaper property prices and the easy commute to their jobs.

Assume that thanks to some local government initiatives and the improved connection to Toronto, companies realise the overlooked potential of cheap downtown offices and rents causing a bunch of good companies move into Hamilton's downtown area to take advantage of these incentives. Assume that these companies employ a reasonable amount of people who either commute in from the surrounding area or increasingly buy or rent locally.

Condos will be built downtown and properties renovated to meet the demand for both of the above.

Assume that people would rather walk to a shop near their downtown condo or home, than get into their car and waste fuel money to drive out of the city. Assume that the new people working downtown want to get lunches and snacks and do a little shopping on their lunch break and can't really go far.

Where are most of these people going to head for this shopping? The existing shopping area on King.

This demand and money to spend will draw new shops, eateries and other businesses in.

So we have two things happening as a result of all this, more people living in and more businesses in the downtown core. How does the city directly benefit from this? Taxes! More people and more businesses mean more property and business taxation revenue which can be collected and spent by the local government. This will encourage the local government to sponsor initiatives to clean up the area, to encourage and sustain this surge of new business and residents, which in turn will pay for itself over time in tax dollars.

OK, where does LRT fit into all of this? LRT on Main and the link to Toronto will help encourage a lot of the above, which will improve King directly without having to resort to a splitting the LRT onto Main and King.

Keep the LRT simple and the rest will take care of itself as a result of supply and demand. :)

[raisethehammer]

ok, so onto some nitty gritty route planning for B-Line LRT.

I recall when living in Portland that the MAX trains stopped frequently downtown.
So, I looked up online and with the help of Google Maps and Tri-Met website I figured out that there are 7 LRT stops within 1 mile in downtown PDX, from NW 1st/Davis to SW10th/Galleria stop.

I truly believe that stops downtown should be more frequent like this, than east or west of the core. My memory was correct regarding Portland's system.

7 stops in 1 mile brings the riders to so many destinations and uses in an urban core.

So, without futher ado, my suggested routing of the B-Line LRT, west to east:

University Plaza
West Village Condos
Binkley (Fortinos, St Mary's highschool)
McMaster
Longwood
Dundurn
Locke
Hess Village
Bay St (City Hall/Education Square/Copps Coliseum)
McNab Terminal
Hughson (Gore, GO Station)
Jarvis/Spring (International Village)
Emerald
Wentworth
Sherman
Gage
Delta
Ottawa
Kenilworth
Queenston Traffic Circle
Parkdale
Nash
Eastgate

The spacing east and west of downtown is appropriate for LRT. Downtown area I've added a few extra stops since it's the highest density part of the city and deserves stops at Locke, International Village and Emerald.

Folks at the city have been reluctant to add more stops to the current B-Line and for good reason. It travels in mixed traffic, stops are longer than LRT stops will be (I once sat at Main and Queen for 5 minutes. Some lady took a couple minutes chatting with the driver about "where this bus stops" etc.... and then the light changed red and then just as it was turning green someone else came running up and knocked on the door to get on.
None of that crap with LRT.
Stops on LRT systems I've used are usually 10-20 seconds. Then the train pulls away and all lights are controlled by the train so that it travels continuously to it's next stop. We NEED to add in these extra few stops with LRT and I guarantee that the total travel time from University Plaza to Eastgate will be several minutes less than the current B-Line.

I've got 6 stops in the 2.5km stretch from Dundurn to Wellington. Appropriate for the heart of the city IMO.

Any thoughts?

[omro]

"The capital costs of providing LRT are estimated at of $15 million/km for one-way streets and $25 million/km for two-way streets, plus $4 million for each LRT vehicle required."

Find how many km for B-Line and times it $15,000,000 for one way or $25,000,000 for two way.

So splitting the LRT onto Main and King will cost an additional $5m per kilometer to implement and that's just to build it, nothing about maintaining it.

This is all approximate. Using google map's distance tool, I calculated that along Main street from the Delta area to Paradise Road (where I'm assuming that the two lines will meet up again) is a distance of a little under 6.5km.

6.5 x $5 = $30.25m more to build a split LRT than to keep it all on the same road.

Now if you turn that saving into the $4m LRT vehicles, thats: $30.25 / 4 = 7.5625. Let's call that 7 for simplicity.

OK, the real cost of splitting the LRT onto King and Main is 7 LRT vehicles and the increase in service that you'd get from having more vehicles on the track and a reduced distance between them. That could easily change the service from 1 every 15mins to 1 every 10mins, for example.

[omro]

I totally agree about the number of stops, in many cases the decision between taking transit and driving is the fact that the transit stop is just too far to walk vs being able to park just outside.

I'm sorry to say this, but people are inherently lazy.

[adam]

If people are that lazy, then what will motivate them to take LRT over their car? Using this logic, maybe they should forget about LRT all together

[highwater]

Anyone have any nifty name ideas for an LRT system??

The Spammer. (Speed + hammer.) :D

[raisethehammer]

sorry, I've edited my above post to add one more stop - Bay St (Education Square/Copps Coliseum).
this stretch from Queen to Wellington is our 'downtown' area similar to Portlands. More stops are needed and would be used by the public.

It's exciting to think of how quickly this thing will get across town in it's own lanes. WAY better than the B-Line bus.

[omro]

If people are that lazy, then what will motivate them to take LRT over their car? Using this logic, maybe they should forget about LRT all together

Come on, think about it, I'm obviously not saying that ;)

BTW, I'm using the word transit instead of bus/tram, as this can be applied to both.

If people have a long wait for transit, after a long walk to a transit stop, that's going to put people off using it.

When Red Ken got into office as Mayor of London, one of the first things he demanded during the review of TfL was that buses stopped more at more places along their routes, ran more frequently and more regularly. Less of the "you wait around for bloody ages and two come along at once" syndrome that had plagued London buses. What happened... more people took the bus.

If you've a frequently running and frequently spaced transit system, then people will be more inclined to use it.

[go_leafs_go02]

I'm liking your B-Line proposal for stops. I was in Gore Park less than an hour ago, and was envisioning a LRT system running through there. Honestly, that would be good (of course, the A-Line, running down Hughson) There was one service vehicle and one car driving down Hughson looking both ways north and south. the ROW would be perfect for a private LRT line with no traffic. Then have it shift over to James st somewhere around Cannon or York/Wilson heading north to Pier 4 or simply the LIUNA station.

Spacing of the stations. I believe they should become more and more spaced out the furthur away you get from downtown. The main feeds to the LRT lines should be bus transfers (much like the subway in Toronto) instead of walking. Bus is for local, LRT is for cross-city or the express. However, the closer downtown you get, the more close the stations should be, like RTH said. I'm still with full integration with the go station, having a fare zone like the GO has. Let's say this is potentially the intersection for the A-Line, and B-Line. You can transfer easy, through ANY door with a proof of purchase that must be displayed if requested by any member of the HSR. And then have a ticket machine that takes advance cash or ticket fare and gives a transfer with correct expiration time automatically. I say this because I think there will be ALOT of transferring done right there. Waiting in line to show the driver your ticket, pass, or payment is a major delay, especially if it's not the terminus of the route. Hop on, hop off in the easiest way possible.

A dream is to have VIVA like stations, but that's overkill I think. I'm proposing this only at the GO station or whatever hub is created where the A-Line and B-Line intersect.

[markbarbera]

"The capital costs of providing LRT are estimated at of $15 million/km for one-way streets and $25 million/km for two-way streets, plus $4 million for each LRT vehicle required."

Find how many km for B-Line and times it $15,000,000 for one way or $25,000,000 for two way.

Slight change to the formula. If its one way you'll have to include eastbound and westbound. For a rough estimate, take the km distance from Eastgate to University Plaza, multiply that by 2, then multiply by $15 million cost for a one-way track. For two way, it's straight distance times $25 million.

[markbarbera]

Another point of clarification. Redevelopment opportunites do not span the actual LRT line. The development opportunities will radiate around the stops on the LRT. Long stretches of track without a stop will see limited redevelopment oppurtunities. I am not saying to add more stops, I am just pointing out that development will be focussed around the stops and not the track.

[MsMe]

Here are some names I thought of.

Fury
Rocket
Eagle
Dragon
Phoenix
Tycoon
Condor
Demon
Zombie
Virgin...Can always tell people you're going to ride a virgin...Sorry I couldn't resist...Go ahead smack me for that one..LOL

[omro]

Could always be literal...

LRT as a word rather than an acronym.

so "lart" for example.

[FairHamilton]

If you've a frequently running and frequently spaced transit system, then people will be more inclined to use it.

Agreed. Unfortunately, North Americans have a schedule mentality, not a space/frequency mentality.

i.e. there's no reason for the B-Line, 1 King and 52 Dundas to arrive at King & Sherman between 6:30am and 6:33am. Then have the 1 and 52 leapfrog one another to downtown. If you arrive at 6:34 you have about 10 minute wait for the next bus.

What inefficiency.

[omro]

Could always be literal...

LRT as a word rather than an acronym.

so "lart" for example.

Though, thinking about it, that's kinda awful. But then there's the San Francisco BART (Bay Area Rapid Transit). Could call it the HART (Hamilton Area Rapid Transit)...

"From McMaster to Eastgate Square in a HART beat."

Cheesy, but...

[omro]

Could always be literal...

LRT as a word rather than an acronym.

so "lart" for example.

Though, thinking about it, that's kinda awful. But then there's the San Francisco BART (Bay Area Rapid Transit). Could call it the HART (Hamilton Area Rapid Transit)...

"From McMaster to Eastgate Square in a HART beat."

Cheesy, but...

[LikeHamilton]

I was talking to Councillor Powers today and he appeared genuinely upbeat and positive about LRT for the city. He was pushing the fact that the city cannot afford to pay for this but and that both levels of government should pay for it all. This is the right way to go.

He was very excited with what everyone here new and has been saying all along, which is LRT is cheaper to run. This is contrary to what staff had stated at the open houses. He sighted the example of Calgary vs. Hamilton. Our bus system cost us $2.50 per passenger to run. Calgary’s LRT cost 25¢ per passenger to run! That is a tenth of the cost of bus or BRT. He was all excited about the savings and that we could increase service into the transportation node’s (he actually used that word) with savings.

[raisethehammer]

yea, Ferguson had those same stats on the radio the other day for operating costs per passenger.

[raisethehammer]

I'm liking your B-Line proposal for stops. I was in Gore Park less than an hour ago, and was envisioning a LRT system running through there. Honestly, that would be good (of course, the A-Line, running down Hughson) There was one service vehicle and one car driving down Hughson looking both ways north and south. the ROW would be perfect for a private LRT line with no traffic. Then have it shift over to James st somewhere around Cannon or York/Wilson heading north to Pier 4 or simply the LIUNA station.

Spacing of the stations. I believe they should become more and more spaced out the furthur away you get from downtown. The main feeds to the LRT lines should be bus transfers (much like the subway in Toronto) instead of walking. Bus is for local, LRT is for cross-city or the express. However, the closer downtown you get, the more close the stations should be, like RTH said. I'm still with full integration with the go station, having a fare zone like the GO has. Let's say this is potentially the intersection for the A-Line, and B-Line. You can transfer easy, through ANY door with a proof of purchase that must be displayed if requested by any member of the HSR. And then have a ticket machine that takes advance cash or ticket fare and gives a transfer with correct expiration time automatically. I say this because I think there will be ALOT of transferring done right there. Waiting in line to show the driver your ticket, pass, or payment is a major delay, especially if it's not the terminus of the route. Hop on, hop off in the easiest way possible.

A dream is to have VIVA like stations, but that's overkill I think. I'm proposing this only at the GO station or whatever hub is created where the A-Line and B-Line intersect.

what you're describing is exactly how LRT lines operate. You don't show anything to a driver. You walk in whichever door you want.
They have employees who come around frequently once the train gets moving to check tickets.

[MsMe]

what you're describing is exactly how LRT lines operate. You don't show anything to a driver. You walk in whichever door you want.
They have employees who come around frequently once the train gets moving to check tickets.

The San Francisco cable cars used to work like that. Probably still do, been years since I have been there.

[go_leafs_go02]

what you're describing is exactly how LRT lines operate. You don't show anything to a driver. You walk in whichever door you want.
They have employees who come around frequently once the train gets moving to check tickets.

Yeah, that makes sense. For some reason, I just keep imagining articulated bus length trains that work the same way, you have to enter through the front door, show the driver your fare, and voila.

[adam]

Its true, development will be done radially outward from each stop - not along the whole line. The stops have to be strategically placed.

[DC83]

So, without futher ado, my suggested routing of the B-Line LRT, west to east:

University Plaza
West Village Condos
Binkley (Fortinos, St Mary's highschool)
McMaster
Longwood
Dundurn
Locke
Hess Village
Bay St (City Hall/Education Square/Copps Coliseum)
McNab Terminal
Hughson (Gore, GO Station)
Jarvis/Spring (International Village)
Emerald
Wentworth
Sherman
Gage
Delta
Ottawa
Kenilworth
Queenston Traffic Circle
Parkdale
Nash
Eastgate

Great ideas!! I especially like the Queenston Traffic Circle one. All they would have to do is cut a strip thru the middle of it (it's big), redo the surface (people can't exit onto grass) add some pedestrianization measures (that "intersection" is the WORST to walk across) and voila!

I still really hope it stays as both directions on Main!!!

Does anyone else see a pattern with our thoughts/ideas/rants and the direction City Planners are going? Fess up... which one of you works for Public Works ;) hahaha

Whatever it is, keep it up. If you're emailing City Staff or Jill Stephen herself, don't stop. They are obviously listening to our ideas so might as well take advantage of that!

[SteelTown]

Money for transit looks to be safe
Ken Mann
10/7/2008

The chair of Metrolinx believes that the Ontario government's 11.6 billion dollar commitment to a regional transportation plan is secure.

Rob MacIsaac has told a meeting of Hamilton Chamber of Commerce members that he does not worry about the money falling victim to a tough economy.

MacIsaac also stresses that the "enthusiastic response" that the plan has recieved in Hamilton, is "encouraging".

The plan calls for light rail transit in Hamilton, along both east-west and north-south routes.

City politicians have stressed that it will only happen if the province pays the 1.1 billion dollar cost of building the system.

MacIsaac also urges the public to put some pressure on federal candidates, noting that Ottawa has been asked to put six billion dollars into the regional transportation plan.

He adds that the current cost of congestion in Hamilton and the GTA is six billion dollars a year, both in terms of lost travel time and GDP. The average local commuter spends 50 hours stuck in traffic over a 12 month period.

[SteelTown]

Think we'll ever have a model LRT vehicle in Hamilton? Perhaps one from Bombardier.

[DC83]

Think we'll ever have a model LRT vehicle in Hamilton? Perhaps one from Bombardier.

There should be several! One For:
-Gore Park
-Eastgate Terminal
-McMaster
-Limeridge

Then maybe a 'traveling' display for suburbs.
-Meadowlands for a cpl weeks
-Summit Park/Heritage Green for a cpl weeks

We need to market the shit out of this thing!!!

[FairHamilton]

Think we'll ever have a model LRT vehicle in Hamilton? Perhaps one from Bombardier.

Why not Siemens? They have operations in the city, a different part of Siemens mind you, but still a company with local presence.

[matt602]

More than likely Bombardier will be chosen because of their ties with the TTC (the only other transit agency in Ontario to have light rail), and because it's a Canadian company.

[SteelTown]

http://i38.tinypic.com/2uti91w.jpg
http://i37.tinypic.com/2m7u5xx.jpg

[MsMe]

Nice one Steeltown, where is that one located?

[SteelTown]

It'll be built at Vancouver, Olympic Line, obviously before the Olympics. The picture above is from Brussels.

It'll be a demo so I wouldn't be surprised if Bombardier paid to have councillors or employees from the Rapid Transit Office to Vancouver. 2010 is likely the year Hamilton or Metrolinx will submit a bidding process for LRT vehicles.

[hamtransithistory]

So, without futher ado, my suggested routing of the B-Line LRT, west to east:

University Plaza
West Village Condos
Binkley (Fortinos, St Mary's highschool)

Confused me there for a second. The original name for the Main/Osler intersection is Binkley Corners

McMaster
Longwood
Dundurn
Locke
Hess Village
Bay St (City Hall/Education Square/Copps Coliseum)
McNab Terminal
Hughson (Gore, GO Station)

I guess if the LRT ran along James, these last two would be merged into one?

Jarvis/Spring (International Village)

I had to look this one up, I'd call it Wellington instead

Emerald
Wentworth
Sherman
Gage
Delta
Ottawa
Kenilworth
Queenston Traffic Circle
Parkdale
Nash

There's quite a distance between the last two, maybe we should add a stop at Potruff?

[mishap]

There's quite a distance between the last two (Parkdale, Nash), maybe we should add a stop at Potruff?
I agree. Otherwise, it's a mile between stops. There are a lot of riders in the area, and if they can't get to LRT, it'll bog down whatever bus is providing local service. Also, since it's right next to the Parkway, maybe there's the potential for some sort of park-and-ride facility, or a kiss-and-ride at the very least.

[thistleclub]

Metrolinx cash won't cover 25-year plan (http://www.thespec.com/News/BreakingNews/article/447122)
October 08, 2008
By Rob Faulkner
The Hamilton Spectator

Metrolinx chairman Rob MacIsaac said yesterday the transportation agency can only fund seven years of its 25-year plan — but will still forge ahead.
It underscores the urgent push by city hall to get local rapid transit in the first Metrolinx budget for 2009-13, as the economy is rife with uncertainty.
MacIsaac’s visit to Hamilton and the Chamber of Commerce yesterday didn’t reassure everyone.

“I’ll feel better when I hear ka-ching,” said city Councillor Russ Powers, chair of the public works committee. He said proposed east-west and north-south rapid transit lines in Hamilton must be planned together, despite Metrolinx’s plan to tackle the east-west line first.

In a $50-billion, 25-year draft regional transportation plan revealed last month, Metrolinx calls for several rapid transit lines in Hamilton, but hasn’t decided on rail or bus. The city, and residents in surveys, prefer rail over bus lines.

“The devil is in the details,” Kathy Drewitt, chair of the Downtown Hamilton Business Improvement Area, said at the Hamilton Chamber of Commerce luncheon.

Her members, who’d be affected by construction of transit lines in the core, prefer light rail. MacIsaac said the technology will be decided on after detailed study of each line.

The regional transportation body is charged with implementing the MoveOntario 2020 plan that began with $11.5 billion from the province and wants $6 billion in federal cash.

Powers and MacIsaac said the lead-up to Oct. 14’s federal election is the time to ask candidates where they stand on the missing $6 billion.

City staff studying the issue say two LRT lines in Hamilton — one east-west, and one north-south — could cost $1.1 billion. Councillors want Ontario to pay capital costs.

“I’m listening closely to Mayor (Fred) Eisenberger and I’m sympathetic to what he’s saying. I’m rooting for at least one LRT line in Hamilton. It’s important for us to do due diligence because there’s only so much money and everyone across the region would like LRT,” MacIsaac said. He expects a final regional transportation plan in November, after public consultations.
Metrolinx will hold a public open house in Hamilton starting at
5 p.m. Oct. 30 at the Hamilton Convention Centre (1 Summers Lane).

[matt602]

I agree. Otherwise, it's a mile between stops. There are a lot of riders in the area, and if they can't get to LRT, it'll bog down whatever bus is providing local service. Also, since it's right next to the Parkway, maybe there's the potential for some sort of park-and-ride facility, or a kiss-and-ride at the very least.

I think a stop right along the middle of the Queenston Rd. overpass between the traffic lights would be a good idea. I've long thought there should be a bus stop along here as well (there's currently one at Potruff and one at Reid, at opposite sides of the valley - a far and tiring walk).

Barton over the RHVP is also a pain because there is large barriers seperating pedestrians from traffic, making a bus stop impossible. It's not as much distance between the two stops as Queenston, but that Bayfront bus can creep up on you and if you miss it you'll be looking at a long wait.

[raisethehammer]

I'm sure to be chastised for this, but I think I'm starting to reverse my long-held preference for both rails on Main.
Allow me to explain why:

1. Redevelopment will happen along LRT stops. I want LRT stops on King. That point is simple enough. lol....I'll elaborate though - King/Sherman, King/Dundurn, King/Gage, King/Wentworth etc.... I fear that these areas might actually get worse being removed from the LRT stops if both lines are on Main. Imagine all of those intersections being revitalized along an LRT stop?
2. Symbolic. The look of LRT gliding past the Gore, International Village etc.... King is so much more of an urban street than Main.
3. World-class streetscaping. I've pained over this, but the more I look at it, the more I doubt that both lines could fit on Main, especially between Dundurn and the Delta. We already have disgustingly narrow sidewalks along most of that stretch. I want wider sidewalks, proper platforms, tons of trees and street parking on the south curb.
With only 1 LRT track I envision the area around Main/Locke looking like this:
parking on south curb, 2 eastbound car lanes, 1 eastbound LRT lane, wider sidewalks on both sides and tons of trees.
4. The more I research it, it's common to have a downtown split on LRT lines. Portland did it and it didn't cause any harm. East and west of downtown PDX the lines would come back together. Same as we'd have here west of Longwood and east of the Delta.
5. Ability to capture more riders. Having both lines on Main means a huge segment of the population won't ever use an LRT if they live north of King through central Hamilton. Having 1 on each street will make it more convenient for them. For example, I live at Strathcona and York. It's a 5 minute walk to King/Locke. I'd happily do that to use the LRT (granted I'm not the best example, because I'd also happily walk to Main/Locke, but many folks won't based on LRT research in other cities). I have the option of using the #8 bus in front of my house to get downtown, and then on the way back home from the east I'd use the LRT.
with both lines on Main, I'm less likely to do all that walking in snow or rain...again, I PERSONALLY would, but research shows that most folks won't.

Any thoughts??

[FairHamilton]

I don't know if this link to a video was posted before, or not. I can't remember seeing it previously.

http://www.myhamilton.ca/myhamilton/CityandGovernment/ProjectsInitiatives/RapidTransit/RapidTransitVideo.htm

[LikeHamilton]

It was released yesterday buy the city.

[DC83]

I agree. Otherwise, it's a mile between stops. There are a lot of riders in the area, and if they can't get to LRT, it'll bog down whatever bus is providing local service. Also, since it's right next to the Parkway, maybe there's the potential for some sort of park-and-ride facility, or a kiss-and-ride at the very least.

I agree with a stop @ Potruff as the stretch between there and Nash is very dense with Apt Bldgs which are full of elderly people. So a stop at both Nash & Potruff would really benefit them.

My issue lies with whether adding more stops is going to increase travel time, and take the 'Rapid' out of 'Rapid Transit'. But if the lanes are dedicated LRT, then that wouldn't be an issue. And I don't understand how the City thinks it needs to be mixed-traffic in this area as the road is HUGE!

I'm sure to be chastised for this, but I think I'm starting to reverse my long-held preference for both rails on Main.
Allow me to explain why:

...

Any thoughts??

I was thinking just this the other day. To be honest, I think about LRT at least twice a day as I ride the B-Line to/from work.

I fear that both directions along Main would further seperate the 'Main St Divide of classes'. I wonder whather LRT on Main would raise the housing prices so much up there, the low-income residents will be forced to the less-desriable North-of-King area.

But I also wonder whather that would even matter, as City Staffers are hoping that the prices will increase in the ENTIRE lower City forcing those low-income folks to... I dunno... Brantford?

[omro]

I still personally think both lines should be on Main. LRT is good for Hamilton, so where ever it goes, as long as it goes somewhere and is executed well, that's great and the final street isn't that important. However, my opinion won't change, the two lines should be together. To split the lines just doesn't make financial sense and makes it awkward.

If you put even one LRT track on King, I doubt it will ever get a two-way conversion if King even needs to be converted.

I've also said this before, but no one seems that interested in pedestrianising King Street from International Village down to Jackson Sq. as the precious car must have right of way. Most British cities have pedestrianised areas and it hurts them not one jot. People use transit or car parks around the centre and wander idly from shop to shop, enjoying the peace and not having to worry about having to trip over cars.

The issue with pedestrianising that swathe of King is looked at backwards. They say if people can't drive past the shops or park in front of the shops, no one will go there. And if no one goes there, there will be no demand and if there is no demand, there will be no shops, etc etc etc.

However, think of Malls. People walk idly around from shop to shop, enjoying the peace and not having to worry about having to trip over cars. People get to them using transit or the car parks surrounding them. Why do they go? Because the shops they want to go to are there.

Supply creates demand as well as demand creating supply.

If decent shops and bars and restaurants were in the King Street downtown core and if the downtown shopping centre thingy was replaced with something decent, people would actually go downtown.

Alas for this to happen requires major redevelopment backing from public and private sector people. For example Southgate Bath (http://www.southgatebath.com/).

Anyway, LRT on King would be cool and I'd be all for it... if both lines could be on King.

[drpgq]

I've actually thought this way as well. King seems to be turning around slowly in the international village and I think LRT would help King east of Wellington.

I'm sure to be chastised for this, but I think I'm starting to reverse my long-held preference for both rails on Main.
Allow me to explain why:

1. Redevelopment will happen along LRT stops. I want LRT stops on King. That point is simple enough. lol....I'll elaborate though - King/Sherman, King/Dundurn, King/Gage, King/Wentworth etc.... I fear that these areas might actually get worse being removed from the LRT stops if both lines are on Main. Imagine all of those intersections being revitalized along an LRT stop?
2. Symbolic. The look of LRT gliding past the Gore, International Village etc.... King is so much more of an urban street than Main.
3. World-class streetscaping. I've pained over this, but the more I look at it, the more I doubt that both lines could fit on Main, especially between Dundurn and the Delta. We already have disgustingly narrow sidewalks along most of that stretch. I want wider sidewalks, proper platforms, tons of trees and street parking on the south curb.
With only 1 LRT track I envision the area around Main/Locke looking like this:
parking on south curb, 2 eastbound car lanes, 1 eastbound LRT lane, wider sidewalks on both sides and tons of trees.
4. The more I research it, it's common to have a downtown split on LRT lines. Portland did it and it didn't cause any harm. East and west of downtown PDX the lines would come back together. Same as we'd have here west of Longwood and east of the Delta.
5. Ability to capture more riders. Having both lines on Main means a huge segment of the population won't ever use an LRT if they live north of King through central Hamilton. Having 1 on each street will make it more convenient for them. For example, I live at Strathcona and York. It's a 5 minute walk to King/Locke. I'd happily do that to use the LRT (granted I'm not the best example, because I'd also happily walk to Main/Locke, but many folks won't based on LRT research in other cities). I have the option of using the #8 bus in front of my house to get downtown, and then on the way back home from the east I'd use the LRT.
with both lines on Main, I'm less likely to do all that walking in snow or rain...again, I PERSONALLY would, but research shows that most folks won't.

Any thoughts??

[SteelTown]

Metrolinx launches public consultations on The Big Move

TORONTO, Oct. 8 /CNW/ - Metrolinx is seeking public comment on The Big Move: Transforming Transportation in the Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area. The 25-year, $50 billion plan has been released as a draft, and Metrolinx wants to hear from the public before finalizing the recommendations.

"In order for the plan to work, we need input from the people who actually use the transportation system," said Metrolinx Chair Rob MacIsaac. "Transportation impacts on every person in the GTHA, and we want to engage as many of them as possible to make sure we get this right."

Metrolinx will host seven Open House/Public Meetings across the Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area for participants to meet with Metrolinx board members and staff and participate in discussions around proposals in The Big Move.


Monday, October 20 - Premiere Convention Centre, Richmond Hill
Tuesday, October 21 - International Centre, Mississauga
Wednesday, October 22 - Metro Toronto Convention Centre, Toronto
Monday, October 27 - Downsview Park, Toronto
Tuesday, October 28 - Heydonshore Pavilion, Whitby
Wednesday, October 29 - Halton Region Auditorium, Oakville
Thursday, October 30 - Hamilton Convention Centre, Hamilton

Each event will begin with an Open House from 5:00 p.m. to 7:00 p.m., followed by a Public Meeting - including roundtable discussions and interactive exercises - from 7:00 p.m. to 9:00 p.m. As space is limited at each venue, please register to participate in a public meeting in advance specifying which event you plan to attend in one of the following ways:

Register online at www.metrolinx.com (follow the "Public Meetings" links) or send an e-mail to info@metrolinx.com or call 1-866-658-9890. For meeting details including public transit directions visit the Metrolinx website.

Metrolinx's two new documents, the Draft Regional Transportation Plan (RTP) entitled The Big Move: Transforming Transportation in the Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area and the Draft Investment Strategy (IS) are posted online and are accessible 24/7 for review and comment by the public until November 14 at www.metrolinx.com (click on the "Participate in our online consultations" button). E-engagement is one of Metrolinx's popular greeninitiatives.

[thistleclub]

I'm for both on Main, though like omro I'm okay with King getting it if it takes two lines. I'm not sure that existing urban structure is necessarily an unqualified boon, though. Ask any of the long-standing King Street owners from James to Wellington how much they enjoyed the city laying down its ornamental sidewalks, which were installed at a snail's pace over the course of several months, during which entire blocks were reduced to dirt and gravel. Retail traffic took a real hit, for which no compensation or apology was offered. Assuming they start laying rail at McMaster and head east, the process should be pretty smooth by the time it gets to downtown, but it will still be disruptive. They want to do this right, not seasonally like road repair. With less "urban" ness on main there is less to disrupt... and in general, a more generous berth (King basically drops to two lanes from Mary to Wellington) and more equitable path (it's essentially a straight run, whereas King tracks through well-populated residential neighbourhoods after the delta). The north/south divide is a bit of a canard, I would argue. The directionals relate to the northernmost of the two main drags – so downtown King divides James into North and South while in the east end Main does the same starting around Rosslyn. As LRT proponents like to point out, though, people invest along an LRT line. By the time a line would be operational, I would expect that the landscape would look considerably different, both in terms of streetscaping and commercial streetwall. (King is obviously predisposed to urban life, so maybe Main, which runs through the middle of the lower city, might benefit more from the restorative powers of LRT? It's not much of a readymade postcard but I imagine that that kind of indisputable revitalization would be pretty politically compelling.) From MUMC to Ottawa St., Main and King are typically no more than two blocks/2-3 minutes apart. How finite are the effects of LRT-linked revitalization?

[thistleclub]

5. Ability to capture more riders. Having both lines on Main means a huge segment of the population won't ever use an LRT if they live north of King through central Hamilton. Having 1 on each street will make it more convenient for them.

On a King/Main split, use also depends upon the direction of the available train. If you're heading in the opposite direction to a given train it doesn't matter how much shorter your walk to the LRT platform is: You're taking the bus.

[Blurr]

Is there any city to compare that has one way light rail transit?

I see so many issues with one way street LRT I am surprised it is even being considered.

One way is for highways.

[raisethehammer]

On a King/Main split, use also depends upon the direction of the available train. If you're heading in the opposite direction to a given train it doesn't matter how much shorter your walk to the LRT platform is: You're taking the bus.

exactly. that's what I currently do. I take the B-Line or another eastbound bus on Main to get to work, but to get home I go one block south to Maplewood and take the Delaware back west to King/Strathcona.

I'd rather have all those people using the LRT at least one-way instead of not at all.
Someone north of King could do the opposite. Use LRT to get downtown and take the Cannon bus home.
Again, this is just for the area between Wentworth and the Delta. Main/King are close enough together at Locke/Queen and downtown to make it convenient either way.

[omro]

Again, this is just for the area between Wentworth and the Delta. Main/King are close enough together at Locke/Queen and downtown to make it convenient either way.

West of Wentworth is where all the shops are, right? So... let's keep both lines on Main :)

[raisethehammer]

it depends on what you mean by 'all the shops'. haha.
King St is urban it's entire length...it could be Hamilton's Queen or Yonge St's. From Westdale to the Delta, King has potential to be a golden stretch of shops, services, offices, condos etc.... east of the Delta Main takes over as the commercial street.

[hamtransithistory]

If Main and King were less than 200 m apart for the entire length, then I'd go with one track on each street. As you all know, the distance varies considerably. Here's a short list of approximate distances between King & Main

@Longwood 450 m
@Paradise 350 m
@Dundurn 275 m
@Queen 200 m
@James 150 m
@Wellington 90 m (The closest)
@Wentworth 215 m
@Sherman 415 m
@Barnesdale 490 m (The farthest apart)
@Gage 350 m

So at least in the east end the two roads are too far apart. Lots of people have advocated putting the LRT on Main. Well, I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest putting the LRT on King in the downtown, instead of Main.

Starting from University Plaza, the LRT would run along Main, then turn north on either Longwood or Paradise to King, and then east on King all the way to the Delta, and then along Main and Queenston to Eastgate Mall. Conversion of both Main and King to two-way traffic is also part of the plan.

So why King instead of Main?

In the downtown area, Main & King are close enough to each other than it really wouldn't matter which street got the LRT, from the view of a person riding the LRT. City Hall, Jackson Sq, Copps, all of these places are close enough for either street.

A major traffic source that seems to have been ignored in the east end is Ivor Wynne. I think we need LRT service along King as close to Ivor Wynne, in order to deal with pre and post event crowds.

As for cars, Main should be the downtown route for cars, while King should be used primarily for transit. If both streets were two-way, wouldn't drivers use Main over King anyway, as it runs from Dundas & Ancaster through to Stoney Creek?

I can see that the biggest problems with a King LRT is the distance from Hunter St station, and Gage park access is poor.

[omro]

As for cars, Main should be the downtown route for cars, while King should be used primarily for transit. If both streets were two-way, wouldn't drivers use Main over King anyway, as it runs from Dundas & Ancaster through to Stoney Creek?

I think if you put both LRT tracks on King you'd effectively prevent cars from being on it west of Wellington for a stretch, something which I was lead to believe would be seriously unpopular because apparently no car access would mean no shoppers downtown... :koko:

[go_leafs_go02]

Interesting concept. I would be for King if it wasn't so narrow in that one area east of John. however, I want it definitely running side by side in both directions.

AS for Ivor Wynne. Can anyone even guarantee that stadium will be there by the time the LRT opens? really?

[thistleclub]

A major traffic source that seems to have been ignored in the east end is Ivor Wynne. I think we need LRT service along King as close to Ivor Wynne, in order to deal with pre and post event crowds.

Possibly factored out due to talk of the stadium being essentially irreparable five years from now. It's not yet known where a replacement stadium will stand.

Two separate lines seems to raise as many negatives as it solves if not more, and I think it would ultimately be a lower priority than an efficient twin line along Main, which passes McMaster, MUMC and Innovation Park, Columbia College, Westdale and the Fortino's Plaza, Locke South and Hess Village, City Hall and Hamilton Place, the timeless titans of Main and John, the Sopinka Courthouse and McMaster's downtown campus (where it's a quick stroll to to the Hunter Street GO Station) and nightclub standbys like LTH, Slainte and Tailgates, eventually terminating at Eastgate Square (rather than Memory Mausoleum). True, it doesn't suggest as many picture-perfect moments at the moment, but then it's a number of years hence. (And BTW: What MacIssac was suggesting about the number of lines of LRT being up in the air... how would that impact Hamilton’s rapid transit hopes and dreams?) I understand the appeal of King, but I still see it as less ideal than Main. One reason is that having LRT in the face of our local leaders day after day as it zips past council chambers may have a beneficial effect on their collective vision and ambition for the city.

[omro]

One reason is that having LRT in the face of our local leaders day after day as it zips past council chambers may have a beneficial effect on their collective vision and ambition for the city.

You're assuming that they'll ever get back into City Hall :haha:

[thistleclub]

You're assuming that they'll ever get back into City Hall :haha:

Well, you gotta have hope. I know it's a bit intangible as benefits go, but (naively perhaps) I think it would have a positive impact.

[omro]

Well, you gotta have hope. I know it's a bit intangible as benefits go, but (naively perhaps) I think it would have a positive impact.

I'm all for LRT passing in front of City Hall, if they use really cool stylised trams, it would look even more like a futuristic Thunderbirds Set bigature :-)

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g222/spiffer_1958/Anderson_Stuff/Monorail/T-Birds-Monorail-web_2.jpg

Not quite the one I remember, but hey it's FAB.

[raisethehammer]

If Main and King were less than 200 m apart for the entire length, then I'd go with one track on each street. As you all know, the distance varies considerably. Here's a short list of approximate distances between King & Main

@Longwood 450 m
@Paradise 350 m
@Dundurn 275 m
@Queen 200 m
@James 150 m
@Wellington 90 m (The closest)
@Wentworth 215 m
@Sherman 415 m
@Barnesdale 490 m (The farthest apart)
@Gage 350 m

So at least in the east end the two roads are too far apart. Lots of people have advocated putting the LRT on Main. Well, I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest putting the LRT on King in the downtown, instead of Main.

Starting from University Plaza, the LRT would run along Main, then turn north on either Longwood or Paradise to King, and then east on King all the way to the Delta, and then along Main and Queenston to Eastgate Mall. Conversion of both Main and King to two-way traffic is also part of the plan.

So why King instead of Main?

In the downtown area, Main & King are close enough to each other than it really wouldn't matter which street got the LRT, from the view of a person riding the LRT. City Hall, Jackson Sq, Copps, all of these places are close enough for either street.

A major traffic source that seems to have been ignored in the east end is Ivor Wynne. I think we need LRT service along King as close to Ivor Wynne, in order to deal with pre and post event crowds.

As for cars, Main should be the downtown route for cars, while King should be used primarily for transit. If both streets were two-way, wouldn't drivers use Main over King anyway, as it runs from Dundas & Ancaster through to Stoney Creek?

I can see that the biggest problems with a King LRT is the distance from Hunter St station, and Gage park access is poor.


Longwood and Barnsedale don't matter. There won't be a stop at Barnsedale and Longwood is two-way. The stops will be across the street from each other.
Paradise also doesn't matter since there won't be any stops there.
Sherman at 415 and Gage at 350 are the only ones that this affects, as I mentioned previously.
That's why I'm starting to think that the tracks should go on two-streets. I see potential for crummy, ghettoized neighbourhoods north of King/Sherman and King/Gage if the tracks are both on Main.
The rest of the system, the streets are close enough to warrant having the tracks on both King and Main.

[thistleclub]

I see potential for crummy, ghettoized neighbourhoods north of King/Sherman and King/Gage if the tracks are both on Main. The rest of the system, the streets are close enough to warrant having the tracks on both King and Main.

So you'd have a ghetto 400 meters further north of King by moving an LRT line that distance? Or would it be half the distance since it's only one line you're moving? Being cheeky, of course (do forgive me, I'm waiting on takeout and my blood sugar is crashing). But with proximity determining single or twin lines, i would suggest that since King skews away from Main dramatically at the delta (almost a km apart by Kenilworth) a compromise would be to have the tracks twinned for high efficiency from the delta to Eastgate, while the service would split to accommodate walking-averse individuals west of Gage (the core is full of them). That way you have one system for the lower city that will serve as a control case for the relative revitalization benefits of LRT. Transit scholars will be over the moon.

Another positive to having twinned lines on Main is that the street most traditionally associated with speedily crossing the city is already branded that way – it's how would-be drivers think of the street. But by giving primacy to LRT along that stretch, and making trip times favourably comparable to a car, the symbolism of a dedicated line is driven home (no pun intended) by what is a visibly superior mode of transit.

[omro]

I can't see LRT turning any part of the downtown into a ghetto, any investment into the downtown will result in an improvement of the area on the whole. Putting LRT on Main solely will not make any of the areas north of it worse!

When LRT is a success and draws in investment along a major corridor like Main. I am confident that the city will see the benefit LRT has upon neighbourhoods and areas in general and that they will seriously consider building new lines beyond the A line. In this case, we will all seriously need to lobby them to build something along Barton or Cannon or any of the other major roads North of Main, which would have the effect of enhancing those areas too.

[thistleclub]

I was thinking much the same thing re: Barton. Given the rich infill potential of that strip and its proximity to north end neighbourhoods, a bold investment on that strip could spur a revival that would shock even the LRT converts.

Agreed on the "ghetto" issue. Although, with all due respect to the potential of LRT as a social justice tool, this will probably be seen as a transit system first and foremost, and its success or failure will hinge upon how well it serves all of those along its route. In order to be judged a success and be embraced enthusiastically across the board, this rapid transit system will be evaluated in how it stacks up against a car, not against a bus. In other words, it will be measured in terms of speed and convenience. Proximity is important but so is regularity and rate of speed.

If you sever the lines with the intent of spreading the goodness around but end up making the LRT lines only as swift and efficient as the #10s (and unidirectional from the fork onward), you’ve basically spent a fortune on stylish bus surrogates. Which is maybe why twinned lines have seen almost four times as much support as a two-street scenario support in the LRT poll in the other thread. And as this initial route will set the tone for additional lines in the city, one would think it best to have the initial foray be judged an unqualified success.

Granted, this debate may well be moot – the political influence of HHS and McMaster would seem to privilege Main over King.

[LikeHamilton]

LRT could fast-track real estate values

Rob Faulkner The Hamilton Spectator Oct 10, 2008

Eva Ewaskiw remembers the day she and her husband bought their house on east-end Kenora Avenue 38 years ago for ... well, she thinks it was about $16,000.

"My husband was saying, 'We got a mortgage! We got a mortgage!'" recalled Ewaskiw, who left the then-Yugoslavia after the Second World War.

Since they bought it, the home near Eastgate Square has risen in value above $200,000.

It will rise again soon, suggested a real estate report yesterday. Older properties near King, Main and James streets will gain the most in value if Hamilton gets light rapid transit, as city staff hope.

So says the Vancouver-based Real Estate Investment Network, which looked at the housing value added by big transportation projects in Hamilton and Kitchener.

Study co-author Don Campbell says the value of homes within 800 metres of new rapid transit or GO stations will rise 15 to 20 per cent more than homes in non-transit areas. He's excited by the prospect.

"It's such a breath of fresh air because when we put Hamilton on the top 10 towns to invest in ... people thought, 'What are you talking about?'" said Campbell, president of the real estate research firm.

A draft plan from provincial transportation agency Metrolinx shortlisted a rapid transit line from Centennial Parkway to McMaster University in the next 15 years, but didn't say if it will be rail or bus. Other proposed lines link the waterfront to the airport via James, and go up the Mountain from Main Street East to Ancaster.

LRT station locations have not been identified because routes are still being planned. Eastgate Square is a likely east-end anchor.

When Ewaskiw, 77, moved to the area, it was a sea of cherry trees. If an LRT hub is built there, it will be interesting but not vital for her.

"I'm going to stay in my house as long as I can," Ewaskiw said. "For me, if I don't want to take the car, I can walk to Eastgate and take the bus uptown.

"For me, a train would be a good idea for young people ... We have all the time in the world," she added with a laugh.

Jeff Wingard, a senior social planner at the Social Planning and Research Council of Hamilton, says despite the real estate boost, new LRT may bring affordable development, too. He said it will also help people get to jobs.

But community activist Tom Cooper said LRT can't be priced like a "Cadillac service" -- it must be affordable.

Campbell studied the impact of the Red Hill Valley Parkway, as well as the impact of the MoveOntario 2020 plan, which Metrolinx is refining and implementing.

He said investing in real estate near new LRT stations or proposed expanded GO stations at Hunter Street and LIUNA Station would be "speculation" today because they may not happen.

But he said property near the Red Hill Valley Parkway will see real estate increases in the years ahead. Being one to three kilometres from easy highway access can give you a 10 to 12 per cent premium on your home's value, he said.

Transportation-related premiums -- which insulate homeowners from market downturns -- appear a year after a project is done, he added.

Jill Stephen, manager of strategic planning in the public works department, said Campbell was wise to report that commutes are measured in minutes, not kilometres.

"Time is precious these days," she said, adding she was pleased he confirms research the city has done.

The LRT has some negative impacts on home values, however. Noise, nuisance, crime and increased traffic can combine to pull down property values right beside stations. Construction can temporarily pull down home values.

Campbell said values rise most in established neighbourhoods and lower-income areas where transit users live, due to improved accessibility and demand from newcomers.

"If you are at or below median income for the city, you will have the biggest increase in demand for homes, and the biggest rise in value increases," he said. "You are not going to see people buy that million-dollar home right beside an LRT station. That's not part of their decision."

Stephen says her anecdotal observations in Charlotte, N.C., were that LRT riders included the whole spectrum of society.

[raisethehammer]

for the record, I want to keep the LRT lines both ways on Main east of the Delta. Not swing them south down King.
According to the research in this report, property value increases take place within 800 metres of an LRT stop. I say let's spread the love - We'd see that type of increase 800 metres south of Main, in between King and Main, and 800 metres north of King by using both streets.
And again, to repeat the data provided above by hamtransithistory, the only 2 stops that are slightly further apart than you'd like are Sherman and Gage. The rest of the system is very manageable with a line on King and a line on Main.
And again, let's remember that this only affects the downtown/central Hamilton stops. East and west of the core the LRT will be both ways on Main. Heck, I'd even like to suggest that the King St line join up with Main via Dundurn instead of Paradise, but I digress.

[omro]

Surely cost effectiveness and overall efficiency and doing a decent job of it and making a transit system to be proud of for the next generations is worth far more than increasing the house prices a few metres north or south.

Both on Main, make it a roaring success Have another set of lines further north in the future. Splitting the lines will most likely prevent any future more northerly line being considered.

[thistleclub]

Agreed. Pointedly routing a system in an attempt to raise all boats at the cost of efficiency of service seems like a compromise. (And as the study's hypotheticals aren't immediately apparent, it's unclear whether the appreciation cited inheres to a twin line or a single, no?)

[SteelTown]

Light rail transit adds new proposed routes

By Kevin Werner
News
Oct 10, 2008

The provincially-financed Metrolinx surprised councillors this week by suggesting two additional light-rail lines on Hamilton Mountain besides the two lines that have already been approved.

City staff provided an update to members of the public works committee this week on the Rapid Transit Feasibility study that included new rapid transit lines from the Ancaster Business Park to Elfrida, and along Centennial Parkway, and another line from the Ancaster Meadowlands, to Mohawk, down through the Kenilworth Access.

"I'm a bit concerned about this," said Hamilton Mountain councillor Tom Jackson. "Using the Kenilworth Access, for me that is brand new to me."

Mr. Jackson was concerned the two new lines, dubbed, T and S, had not been presented to the public for debate.

Public Works Manager Scott Stewart cautioned councillors the proposed two new lines to go with the A and B lines from Upper James to the waterfront, and from University Plaza in Dundas to Eastgate Square in Stoney Creek are long-term proposals.

"There is a tonne of flexibility here," said Mr. Stewart. "This needs a tonne of study."

Jill Stephen, manager of strategic planning, added any further rapid transit lines won't be aggressively looked at for 25 years. She confirmed that Metrolinx, in its draft regional plan, had included the two additional lines.

Mayor Fred Eisenberger, a Metrolinx board member, said Metrolinx has conducted its own public meetings on the new lines.

"It has not been consulted with this council, but there has been consultations," he said.

Meanwhile, although committee members remained optimistic about introducing a light rail transportation service to Hamilton, politicians stated that without the province and Metrolinx providing the bulk of the $1.1 billion in funding, the service won't happen.

"If we don't get capital funds, it's a non-starter," said Ancaster councillor Lloyd Ferguson, who has become a convert to establishing light rail transit in the city.

"This is very futuristic. It would be completely irresponsible for us not to get ready. It is absolutely the right thing for Hamilton."

Hamilton councillor Chad Collins expressed the same concerns. Just look, he said, at the funding promises various provincial governments provided Hamilton for the Red Hill Creek Parkway construction. But after it was completed, he said, the result was the city had to pay more than its share.

"We had at the end of the day left holding a larger share of the cost," he said.

Glanbrook councillor Dave Mitchell looked at the proposed new lines for Elfrida and along Centennial Parkway with a smile on his face.

"I'd love to see it happen in 10 years," he said.

Mr. Eisenberger continued to push for light rail transit, arguing it would be an economic revitalization for the city.

"I haven't heard one person say this is a bad plan," said Mr. Eisenberger. "It appeals to everyone."

He pointed out people still have a "stigma" about taking a bus. But that attitude isn't apparent when people take light rail, he said. During a recent four-day visit to Charlotte, North Carolina, Portland, Oregon, and Calgary, all types of people, carrying briefcases and lunch bags took the system, "no matter your income strata," he said.

He also noticed the economic development that has occurred within those cities after the establishment of light rail transit.

"There is an economic uptick you do not get with a bus," he said.

Metrolinx recently released its "Big Move" report that involves the largest public transportation expansion since the 1950s.

Metrolinx is scheduled to release its five-year capital budget in late November that includes about $11.5 billion through 2015.

Metrolinx chair, Rob MacIsaac, has already identified Hamilton as a priority for funding a rapid transit project.

Hamilton is involved in drafting its two projects involving the A and B lines within a 15 year period. The B-line is one of the top 15 priorities for early implementation because, city staff say, they believe there is enough people that will use the service along the route.

Councillors will be debating whether to support a rapid transit project in Hamilton at the Oct. 20 public works meeting.

"October 20 will be a critical time frame for us," said Mr. Eisenberger.

[go_leafs_go02]

Let the proposals for 2 more MOUNTAIN lines start. haha, really that surprised me. I'm scared that Metrolinx is going to get overambitious with this plan in some ways.


I don't see that happening though..anytime soon.

[thistleclub]

Someone sure knows how to woo suburban councillors.

[raisethehammer]

it's time for Tom Jackson to retire...along with Morelli and a whole bunch of these relics.

[MsMe]

That can be a catch 22 issue. With the LTR raising the prices of houses, that will also raise the property taxes as well. Like we don't pay enough of that already uggg.

[markbarbera]

I like the idea of an LRT runing along Centennial to Elfrida, but this should be a backwards c-shape. The northern end of Centennial should then head west along Burlington Street to service the industrial area, then link up with the A-Line at James North and Burlington Street. At the south end, it should head west along Rymal to link up with the Upper James strech of the A-Line.

[omro]

more lines huh? Cool, the more the merrier. Would have been nice for another downtown though

[raisethehammer]

I agree with Mark's proposal for a C-shaped line. That stuff is all many years away and can be detailed out closer to the time.
The B Line is priority right now.

[LikeHamilton]

Light rail transit adds new proposed routes

This is what I had said in my comment to the city back in July when they where looking for input on LRT in Hamilton.

A Vision of Future Rapid Transit in Hamilton.
At the time the city commits to LRT and the two routes, they should also publish a vision for rapid transit in Hamilton. They should be specific enough that the public, Metrolinx and the federal government would know that we are serious about rapid transit. The timing should be broad but flexible so that if there was talk about more or future funding, we are ready to define extra routes. The vision for the route should be lettered so people can relate and campaign for rapid transit in their area. These routes should be the routes that BRT buses are moved to so they can prove the routes and build rider ship in preparation of LRT. Please take any and all of these ideas.

Suggested routes:

C Line – From the “Ancaster Fair Grounds” (Free parking station) down Hwy 403 to the “Ancaster Power Centre”, along the “Link” to the “Stoney Creek Power Centre” to Hwy 56/Centennial Parkway (Free parking station) and connecting to the D Line, G Line and A Line.

D Line – Hwy 56/Centennial Parkway route. South of Binbrook (Free parking station) to the new power centre @ QEW (and new GO bus and train station) connecting with east – west routes.

E Line – Ancaster/Wilson Street Line Starting at the new fair grounds (Free parking station) along Wilson Street down Hwy 2 hill connecting to the A Line route to McMaster and downtown.

F Line – Ancaster/Mountain/Stoney Creek Mountain. From the Meadowlands Power Centre along Mohawk across the Red Hill Parkway (bridge) along Mud Street connecting to The A Line and the D Line.

G Line – A second north/south route at the east end of the city. Possibly starting south of Rymal down Upper Ottawa, down the Kenilworth access and down Kenilworth or along Lawrence Road and down Ottawa Street to the Centre Mall. Connecting to the B Line, C Line, F Line, K Line and R Line

K Line – Stoney Creek to McMaster. Starting Hwy 8 and King Street along King Street to McMaster. Built to take some of the load off of the successful B Line.

H & W Line – From somewhere north of Waterdown (Free parking station) down Hwy 6 to Plains Road/York Blvd. Here one line would go to the Burlington Go Station (W Line) and the other to downtown Hamilton (GO Centre?) connecting to the A Line, B Line and other bus lines downtown.

L Line – Barton Street from the east end of Stoney Creek to downtown Hamilton.

R Line – Rymal/Garner Road. From Wilson Street and the E line to Centennial and the D line connecting to all of the north/south bus lines and the A line and G Line.

Future expansion of the A Line to the Hamilton Caledonia line or even into Caledonia. (Free parking station)

Future expansion of the B line to 50 Road in the east (Free parking station) and into downtown Dundas and the bottom of the Hwy 8 hill (Free parking station).

The expansion of the lines to rural areas should garner more money from the province, as we would be providing GO Transit type service.

[omro]

That can be a catch 22 issue. With the LTR raising the prices of houses, that will also raise the property taxes as well. Like we don't pay enough of that already uggg.

I doubt the two will happen in sync though and those that want to make money from property and/or cash out and live somewhere else probably will be able to. Someone always makes a profit ;)

[omro]

Is there a map that shows these two new potential lines and the A and B lines?

[raisethehammer]

if someone doesn't want to pay higher taxes, they can buy a house at Burlington Street and Woodward and enjoy the good life with low taxes.

[SteelTown]

Yay I got a Rapid Transit Newsletter today. I'll keep you posted on it.

It has a map of B-Line, A-Line, T-Line and S-Line route map.

[SteelTown]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/Aallen396/metrolinxham.jpg

[Blurr]

What is with all those anti downtown routes. They need an east west line north of main/king.

[raisethehammer]

The rymal one would obviously be BRT. I could see another LRT or streetcar on Barton eventually too. the Mohawk line looks good - Centre Mall to Meadowlands.

[markbarbera]

I like the new routes as shown on the map. However, I still would like to see S line continue north on Centennial to Burlington Street, then west on Burlington to James to connect to northern terminus of A-line. Alternatively, T-line could extend north from Centre Mall to Burlington Street, then west to James and the A-line.

I was wondering about the future of the GO trains in Hamilton. I was thinking, with the elctrified 'Super-GO' serving the former CN station on James North, the morning rush trains departing from the Hamilton GO Centre could actually be scheduled to originate further east of the station, say at Smithville thereby adding commuter service from Lincoln township.

[SteelTown]

Isn't the T Line route almost basically the bus route for Mohawk?

[raisethehammer]

Sounds like it, yes.
I got that newsletter too...pretty cool stuff.
It's amazing how good of a job the city has done on this in such a short time.

[SteelTown]

Yale Properties supports light rail transit......

http://www.myhamilton.ca/NR/rdonlyres/60A0455D-CE93-4DDF-92EC-9CA23A15D573/0/Oct15Item511.pdf

[Millstone]

it's good to see everybody on board with LRT. is there an updated map of proposed lower city routes? is there something going up jamesville way?

[raisethehammer]

it's good to see everybody on board with LRT. is there an updated map of proposed lower city routes? is there something going up jamesville way?

yup. the A-Line goes right up James North to the waterfront. Would be amazing for that neighbourhood.

[DC83]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/Aallen396/metrolinxham.jpg

Awesome stuff. I really like the Centennial/Rymal BRT route. It should terminate at the new Lakeland Centre/Van Wagner's Rd Loop area, though. I like the term 'Elfrida Growth Area'... I think they mean 'Sprawlsville'! I was just up there for Thanksgiving yesterday and I couldn't believe my eyes! Stonechurch & Upper Mt Albion looks like f'in 'Sauga! Really sad. AND there's even a fake suburban-style lake up there now!

I like the idea that the 'T-Line' would originate at Centre Mall and terminate at Meadowlands, but I still feel an all-mountain SportsPark to Meadowlands route would easier convert to LRT, attracting those Mountaineers who sneer at buses. Plus Mohawk is wide enough as-is (in most areas) to support two-way LRT. But we'll have to wait and see... this is all VERY VERY preliminary info.

[raisethehammer]

this much I am confident of, if we can get the initial line (B-Line) to be an LRT, it will be such a smashing success that these future lines (other than S perhaps) will be LRT as well. This city won't believe what hit it once the BLine LRT gets rolling.

[adam]

We can call the B-line the "Bee-line" and have a logo with a cartoonish bee smiling at you