Rapid Transit

[Jon Dalton]

GO train service extends to Stoney Creek via the future James Street North station at peak times, in the first 15 years of the plan. A stop wasn't identified but may be Centennial Parkway, Howe said.


I wonder what the implications are for the TH&B station. Previous statements from Metrolinx said peak hour service would remain there.

If they want to connect East Hamilton / Niagara Region with Toronto effectively they need to seriously consider putting tracks back in the beach strip. Going around the bay adds 20-30 minutes to the trip.

In a future regional network Hamilton would maintain connections with Niagara through the James North station, Buffalo through the TH&B, and Toronto through both stations.

[crhayes]

$650 million? I thought they said the B-line was going to cost 1.1B, or was that both the E-W and N-S lines?

[ryan_mcgreal]

$650 million? I thought they said the B-line was going to cost 1.1B, or was that both the E-W and N-S lines?

That was for both lines, but the staff report indicated that the cost for the north-south line would include $175 million for two escarpment cuts to run the line under James Mountain Road.

I'm not sure where the new price for the east-west line has come from, but I've contacted the rapid transit office to ask.

[SteelTown]

I wonder what the implications are for the TH&B station. Previous statements from Metrolinx said peak hour service would remain there.

If they want to connect East Hamilton / Niagara Region with Toronto effectively they need to seriously consider putting tracks back in the beach strip. Going around the bay adds 20-30 minutes to the trip.

In a future regional network Hamilton would maintain connections with Niagara through the James North station, Buffalo through the TH&B, and Toronto through both stations.

As stated in the past TH&B will remain to have GO Train service during rush hour and GO bus service. The future Stoney Creek location will also have GO Train rush hour service as well, it'll likely include GO Bus service as well (probably connecting from Stoney Creek to James St North Station and TH&B Station).

The James St North station will have all day GO Train service. So really GO Train service will be spilt between James St North station and the TH&B station.

[markbarbera]

I could see the Hunter Street GO train route modified so it starts from Welland running west with stops in Lincoln (Smithville), Stoney Creek (at Centennial), Hamilton GO Centre, Aldershot, then express from Aldershot to Toronto Union. Down the road it could extend all the way to Fort Erie (reviving the old TH&B route)

[matt602]

There's no way in hell tracks on the beach strip will happen. That area is being gentrified with townhouses and beach homes.

[ryan_mcgreal]

http://hamiltonlightrail.com/article/city_rapid_transit_community_update_meetings/


The city's Rapid Transit office is holding two public meetings in December to provide an update on the rapid transit initiative.

First Meeting

* Date: Tuesday, December 2nd, 2008
* Time: 6:00pm - 8:00pm
* Location: Hamilton Convention Centre, Webster Room C
* Address: 1 Summers Lane, Hamilton

Second Meeting

* Date: Thursday, December 4th, 2008
* Time: 6:00pm - 8:00pm
* Location: Barton Stone United Church
* Address: 21 Stone Church Road West (at upper James), Hamilton

A presentation will begin at 6:30pm. The same information will be presented at both meetings.

Note: these meetings are being organized and provided by city government staff, not by Hamilton Light Rail.


This is an important opportunity to communicate to public works staff that the public recognizes the city must be willing to put in about 15% of the capital costs for the east-west LRT line.

Right now, Council's position is that Metrolinx should pay 100% of the capital cost. Metrolinx has indicated that this isn't realistic, though they are prepared to pay "the lion's share" as Metrolinx Chair Rob MacIsaac recently told the Spectator editorial board.

Essentially, Council is telling Metrolinx: light rail is so critical to Hamilton's revitalization that you need to pay for it; but we're not prepared to commit any of our own money to make it happen.

Now, this may be an opening position in the city's negotiations with Metrolinx, but if they intend to stand on this position, it will actually hurt Hamilton's chance at getting provincial LRT money.

Staff (and council) need to hear from Hamiltonians that we are willing to put up some of our own money toward this if that's what it takes to make LRT happen.

[SteelTown]

So Hamilton would have to pay $97.5 million out of the $650 million.

[realcity]

It's not going to Stoney Creek it's going to Eastgate Sq. which is clearly in the Old Hamilton boundry. I wish they would stop calling both sides of Centennial "stoney crick". The border runs east at King and then north on Lake Avenue Road (stupid name -- Avenue Road???) then east again on Barton (south side) on Barton to Greys or Grey Road depending on whom you talk to. Do I have to show my map again. okay.
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b276/theshawsphotos/cities/Stoney-Creek-border.jpg?t=1227742980

[realcity]

anyway
it's good news. I hope I live to see it realized/

[SteelTown]

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a382/hammer396/metrolinxhamilton.jpg

[ryan_mcgreal]

So Hamilton would have to pay $97.5 million out of the $650 million.

Give or take - though the $650 million price tag seems high. I suspect it has to do with the line running east on one street (Main) and west on another (King), effectively almost doubling the construction cost for the stretch in question.

Remember also that the city wouldn't be paying it all at once. For the next couple of years, the capital budget is constrained by the big financial shadow still being cast by the RHVP construction, but that will start to ease by, say, 2010 (though expansion of the Woodward water treatment facility will put new pressure on the capital budget very soon).

Here's a back-of-the-envelope capital outlay schedule for LRT:


Year Budget
--------------
2010 $10.0 m
2011 $20.0 m
2012 $30.0 m
2013 $37.5 m
---------------
Total $97.5 m


Remember that the city essentially borrows its capital budget, and then services its debt from operating revenues. With some creative thinking, it may be able to tap into new revenue streams to help pay for the LRT portion of the municipal debt. Who knows: in a few years, citizens may be pledging to buy track the way we're currently buying square feet of limestone facade for City Hall. :)

[SteelTown]

I don't mind paying 15% or less than $100 million. They could spread out the cost over 10 years or more. I'm sure Metrolinx and the government will be flexible.

[ryan_mcgreal]

They could spread out the cost over 10 years or more. I'm sure Metrolinx and the government will be flexible.

The city needs to borrow the money in the years in which the money is spent. It can then amortize that debt over however many years.

[omro]

Give or take - though the $650 million price tag seems high. I suspect it has to do with the line running east on one street (Main) and west on another (King), effectively almost doubling the construction cost for the stretch in question.

Does anyone know if they'll actually consult people to see if people want both lines on one street or a split line?

I still think that contructing a split line seems an unnecessary waste of money :(

[SteelTown]

"City staff are preparing for the Metrolinx benefits case analysis. City staff hope to recommend their preferred route for light rail transit on Main or King in April, she said."

[omro]

"City staff are preparing for the Metrolinx benefits case analysis. City staff hope to recommend their preferred route for light rail transit on Main or King in April, she said."

That suggests that it'll be the city staff's preferred route and not necessarily what people would prefer :haha:

[coalminecanary]

I think the key part of that quote is "Main or King" :)

[omro]

Cool, though if it's a case of Main or King, rather than Main and King, that heads back to Ryan's comment about the high price tag. And as he has done, begs the question, why's it costing so much?

[SteelTown]

There'll be no doubt an open house on the preferred route before it's finalized in April. Probably March or Feburary for open houses.

[emge]

I don't think there's much chance King will make it as a route for either direction. I'm guessing Main both ways, especially if we have to fund part of it.

I think that makes sense anyways. It would be nice to get LRT on both streets, but I don't think there's enough benefit for the cost, confusion, walk between,etc.

[BrianE]

Better to over estimate the cost of LRT than under estimate it.

It's much easier to tell people a project will cost less than you thought than to tell them it will cost more.

[omro]

I don't think there's much chance King will make it as a route for either direction. I'm guessing Main both ways, especially if we have to fund part of it.

I think that makes sense anyways. It would be nice to get LRT on both streets, but I don't think there's enough benefit for the cost, confusion, walk between,etc.

Totally agree with the section in bold, but then I have posted into a thread about it :haha:

That said, I would be perfectly happy to see both lines on King or Main, as long as both lines are together.

[LikeHamilton]

Give or take - though the $650 million price tag seems high.

I suspect that the first route will be the most expensive one to build. With it they will have to build the entire infrastructure to go with it. They will need a storage and maintenance facility. They need an electrical plant to feed the system. Maintenance and service vehicles such and specialized tow vehicles, track grinding vehicle etc. They will have to train staff in LRT operation from administration to cleaning to driving. With proper planning, they should be able to expand the system with little or no expansion of the infrastructure.

[crhayes]

I suspect that the first route will be the most expensive one to build. With it they will have to build the entire infrastructure to go with it. They will need a storage and maintenance facility. They need an electrical plant to feed the system. Maintenance and service vehicles such and specialized tow vehicles, track grinding vehicle etc. They will have to train staff in LRT operation from administration to cleaning to driving. With proper planning, they should be able to expand the system with little or no expansion of the infrastructure.

Does this LRT system have overhead wires or an electric track? I'm pretty sure I read it has overhead wires (which sucks), and I was thinking it should really have an electrified track, but then I thought that it's right in the middle of the street and people will probably be walking over it :haha:

[ryan_mcgreal]

I suspect that the first route will be the most expensive one to build. With it they will have to build the entire infrastructure to go with it.

You're absolutely right. These are one-time costs that will have to be incurred whenever the first branch is built. I wasn't thinking of them when I saw the price tag.

Does this LRT system have overhead wires or an electric track? I'm pretty sure I read it has overhead wires (which sucks), and I was thinking it should really have an electrified track, but then I thought that it's right in the middle of the street and people will probably be walking over it.

The decision on which technology to use will be part of the planning / environmental assessment phase. Alstom Citadis is available with a ground level power supply (the track is energized just as the vehicle passes over it, so it's completely safe to walk on), but the city will have to weigh the higher cost of such as system and study the technical considerations given Hamilton's variable climate.

[emge]

Isn't light rail generally grade-separated or barrier-separated as well?

[crhayes]

You're absolutely right. These are one-time costs that will have to be incurred whenever the first branch is built. I wasn't thinking of them when I saw the price tag.



The decision on which technology to use will be part of the planning / environmental assessment phase. Alstom Citadis is available with a ground level power supply (the track is energized just as the vehicle passes over it, so it's completely safe to walk on), but the city will have to weigh the higher cost of such as system and study the technical considerations given Hamilton's variable climate.

Man the last thing I'd like to see is wires strewn all across the city in order to power LRT...in all honesty.

[SteelTown]

Metrolinx's $50b plan approved

November 29, 2008
Rob Faulkner
The Hamilton Spectator
http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/474367

After a long debate, Metrolinx yesterday unanimously passed a 25-year, $50-billion final plan to tackle gridlock and pollution in the greater Toronto and Hamilton area.

The Big Move: Transforming Transportation in the GTHA plots four Hamilton transit lines, with a priority on an Eastgate Square- McMaster University line, and extended GO trains into Stoney Creek.

"Pretty much as expected," Hamilton Mayor Fred Eisenberger said at the provincial crown agency's packed board meeting.

In addition to future rapid-transit lines (whether bus or rail is undecided), this area also sees GO rail-line electrification cutting travel time to Toronto, the James Street North regional rail station and a Burlington RT line linked to Toronto's Kipling subway station.

The first five years of the Metrolinx budget (2009-13) will spend $7 billion of the $11.5 billion in funds that the province has committed to the fledgling agency. Due to the shortfall in funding the whole $50-billion plan, yesterday's meeting heard a spirited debate.

Mississauga Mayor Hazel McCallion made an amendment to the plan that, instead of putting off the discussion of long-term financing tools, such as tolls, until 2013, that this discussion occur sooner.

Metrolinx wants to first spend the $11.5 billion it has, seek the $6 billion it requests from Ottawa, and discuss possible tolls or other new fees in 2013 after residents see improvements to transportation.

City of Toronto chief planner emeritus Paul Bedford asked the board to "make the plan matter," by making Ontario Municipal Board decisions fit with The Big Move.

This didn't pass.

In a bid to avoid more low density, car dependent development, Bedford also tried to have new 400 series highways in the 25-year plan be reserved for goods movement, and be built as toll roads. It was considered too big a change to make to the plan without public consultation but was referred to staff.

In its $7-billion, five-year capital plan, Metrolinx will start with construction of the Sheppard East light-rail line and York Region's VIVA bus rapid-transit system. The plan's first full year of construction is expected to generate 17,000 jobs.

See the plan at metrolinx.com.

[SteelTown]

http://www.myhamilton.ca/NR/rdonlyres/3AB15456-B27A-4A7A-B496-21F891C904DC/0/RapidTransitLogoWeb.jpg

Learn, Share and Inquire at Rapid Transit Community Update Meetings
The Rapid Transit Team is holding two community meetings next week to share information with stakeholders about ambitious rapid transit plans for Hamilton. Staff will provide an update on the Metrolinx Regional Transportation Plan, the status of the ongoing light rail transit plans and studies in Hamilton and discuss the next steps in the process.

Community Update Meetings:

Tuesday, December 2nd, 2008
6:00 p.m. – 8:00 p.m.
Hamilton Convention Centre, Webster Room C
1 Summers Lane

Thursday, December 4th, 2008
6:00 p.m. – 8:00 p.m.
Barton Stone United Church

[omro]

Short-line rail good Hamilton investment (http://www.thespec.com/Opinions/article/526598)

J.C. (Cliff) Mackay
The Hamilton Spectator
(Mar 9, 2009)

Canada's railways are back on the public agenda -- and no one should be surprised.

Expanding global trade has accelerated growth in rail freight. Increased environmental concern has highlighted the virtues of rail as the greenest of transportation modes. Passenger rail numbers are rising rapidly. And now a global economic crisis and the need for economic stimulus have many talking about major transportation infrastructure investments.

Much of the recent public discourse on rail investment has focused on high-speed passenger rail -- an ambitious policy goal that must be pursued. Receiving less attention is desperately needed investment in "short line" rail infrastructure that provides immediate stimulus to the economy, creates jobs, supports railway parts manufacturing and ensures an environmentally responsible platform for economic growth.

(A "short line" railway is a small independent railroad that operates over a short distance. As a general rule, it links industries or industrial towns with mainline railroads. In this area, Southern Ontario Railway includes a line that runs about 90 kilometres from Brantford to Nanticoke. The Hamilton terminal section runs for about six kilometres, connecting the Port of Hamilton with both CN and CP. It services the industrial basin in Hamilton.)

In Hamilton and every part of Canada, rail infrastructure projects and suppliers are ready to move now. Construction will employ thousands of Canadians -- immediately. The benefits to local and regional competitiveness will be felt just as fast.

In Hamilton, there is immediate need for investment in short-line rail that could not happen without public-private partnership.

Short line typically has lower traffic volumes that don't generate the revenue required to upgrade and rehabilitate the rail infrastructure.

But these short lines are critical to the competitiveness of local industry and the economic health of communities such as Hamilton.

We have identified 10 short-line infrastructure projects that meet all the criteria for investment under the federal-provincial infrastructure spending plans. This rail investment proposal, calling for $94 million in investment from these two levels of government, deserves the support of Hamilton.

Among other improvements, short-line investments will include track upgrades and bridge reinforcements. In turn, this results in public and economic benefits in communities such as Hamilton.

Ontario's short-line railways have placed a well-defined proposal before governments.

Rail investment also will help offset declines in the automotive sector. Skills in the two industries are readily transferable.

Today's rail industry is well positioned to partner with the provincial and federal governments, to put shovels in the ground immediately and help move the economy in the right direction.

Work can begin immediately in communities such as Hamilton -- and all Canadians will benefit.

J.C. (Cliff) Mackay is president and CEO of the Railway Association of Canada.

Want to get into the debate? Have Your Say on thespec.com

[SteelTown]

City moves to secure light rail land

April 07, 2009
Nicole Macintyre
The Hamilton Spectator
http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/544402

The city is looking to spend $500,000 to get first dibs on land to support its proposed light rail transit system.

The public works committee voted yesterday to allow staff to start negotiations for land for a maintenance facility.

The $500,000 cost will only give the city first right of refusal on the undisclosed property. More money would be needed for the purchase if the rail plan moves ahead.

"It just secures the property," said Jill Stephen, director of strategic and environmental planning. "It's just one more step in the process."

The city won't find out until the summer if its $1-billion proposal for light rail transit is approved by Metrolinx. Council has selected rail as its top pick, ahead of rapid buses.

Stephen said the board of Metrolinx, the regional transit authority, will make decisions on timing and funding in July.

Staff plan to report back to council in the fall. Only then would any land purchases proceed.

The location is confidential.

Councillors Lloyd Ferguson and David Mitchell voted against locking up the land.

The purchase will only be necessary if Hamilton is approved for light rail, said Ferguson, noting the facility isn't needed if the city opts for rapid buses.

Plus, he added, the city might have to change the light rail route if Hamilton is part of a winning Pan Am Games bid.

"I think it's premature at this point until some other decisions get made," Mitchell agreed. "Spending money before you really know is my main concern."

The proposal goes to council for final approval next week.

[omro]

Plus, he added, the city might have to change the light rail route if Hamilton is part of a winning Pan Am Games bid.

Just build a second line!

[coalminecanary]

Canada's railways are back on the public agenda (http://www.thespec.com/Opinions/article/526598)
IT'S ABOUT TIME!

City moves to secure light rail land

The fact that the city is so serious about this really blows my mind. Good work to everyone who pushed hard early (and continues to do so)

[adam]

2 voted against, I am assuming everyone else voted "for"??

[SteelTown]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v174/Appster/LRTHam.jpg

[SteelTown]

The Rapid Transit Office has done preliminary work (pre-EA work) for LRT along King/Main.

For Main St they have the transit lane on the North side of Main instead of the South side. Reduced Main St from 5 lanes to 3 lanes.

[omro]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v174/Appster/LRTHam.jpg

Where did you spot that? Or did you mock that up?

[omro]

Are they even considering two LRT lanes on Main

[SteelTown]

Yes, from University Plaza to Paradise Road and from the Delta to Eastgate. The rest one lane for LRT on Main.

[omro]

Yes, from University Plaza to Paradise Road and from the Delta to Eastgate. The rest one lane for LRT on Main.

So they aren't even considering LRT both ways along Main through the downtown at all?
It will definitely be a Main/King split?

[SteelTown]

They would like to spilt it on King/Main.

Main St -> From University Plaza to Paradise Road it's two lanes for LRT, from Paradise to Delta it's one lane for LRT and from the Delta to Eastgate it's two lanes for LRT.

King St -> All one lane for LRT. It'll link up at Paradise and Delta. Hope that's clear. I have some plans I'll post them later on.

But really things can change until the EA is completed, Spring 2010.

[Blurr]

I think that will be difficult to navigate for visitors and tourists. Come to think about it, it will be difficult to navigate for locals too.

Is there any support for main two way LRT?

What about converting main/king to two way streets?

[SteelTown]

I don't think locals are confused about the current Route 10 B-Line. The proposed LRT route is extactly the same route as the B-Line bus.

[markbarbera]

I would be much more cost-effective to build the LRT with both directions on one street, rather than splitting on two streets.

[SteelTown]

If it had to go on one street only instead of King/Main than Main St would be the best option and not King St.

[LikeHamilton]

At a breakfast meeting today with Chris Murray, City Manager, he was asked when would the LRT construction start. He stated and staff confirmed that they expect everything to be out of the way and the shovel in the ground by May 2011.

The latest from the Rapid Transit Team.

http://www.myhamilton.ca/NR/rdonlyres/298BD1E6-2370-4F1B-8F2C-FCA225C5E096/0/RTNewsletterApril200985x11.pdf


Cities Rapid Transit web site.

http://www.myhamilton.ca/myhamilton/CityandGovernment/ProjectsInitiatives/RapidTransit/

[Jon Dalton]

I think that will be difficult to navigate for visitors and tourists. Come to think about it, it will be difficult to navigate for locals too.

Is there any support for main two way LRT?

What about converting main/king to two way streets?

Once again it's about maintaining one-way traffic flow. LRT and 2-way conversions at the same time would be a huge win, but we'll probably end up half-assing it and wasting a lot of money in the process.

There are some areas where it makes sense to divide the tracks, but not huge 5-lane wide streets.

[block43]

http://www.myhamilton.ca/NR/rdonlyres/8761C471-8ECA-470C-AF75-63C8639B0042/0/Feb23TACFINAL.pdf

According to their website they are looking at one way operations and two way. See slide 18 in the link.

[Blurr]

Are there any other cities who implemented LRT on one way streets? Was it a positive experience?


I am looking outside my office at King in the gibson neighbourhood and there is so little traffic at times during rush hour, I may start a road hockey game.

[SteelTown]

Phase 3 Studies

The Rapid Transit Team recently completed more than 10 different studies including:
• Archeology & Built and Cultural Landscapes;
• Natural Environment;
• Subsurface Infrastructure Review;
• Technology Review;
• Economic Uplift Potential Study and
• Additional Transportation studies.

All of the studies focus on the B-Line and Light Rail Transit as the preferred technology. The focus of the recent studies begins to look at routing options for Light Rail Transit through Downtown Hamilton and attempts to identify any "red-flags" along the corridor.

In addition to the operation of Light Rail Transit one-way on Main/King Streets, as identified as part of Hamilton’s Rapid Transit Feasibility Study Phase 1 (previously presented to the public in Spring 2008), the Rapid Transit Team is investigating other alignments including:

• Contra-flow on Main (one-way traffic eastbound with two-way LRT operation)
• Contra-flow on King (one-way traffic westbound with two-way LRT operation)
• LRT on Main Street with two-way traffic
• LRT on King Street with two-way traffic

In addition to preparing for Metrolinx's Benefit Case Analysis, staff are also investigating alternative funding opportunities and other economic development opportunities for the City, including the tie in of LRT with the PanAM Games Bid.

[markbarbera]

My preferred LRT option is contra-flow on Main, paired with 2-way conversion of King Street.

[markbarbera]

Are there any other cities who implemented LRT on one way streets? Was it a positive experience?


If memory serves, such is the case with the LUAS Red Line in Dublin, Ireland, and it has been an overwhelming success. Actual ridership far exceeded projected ridership.

[omro]

I would be much more cost-effective to build the LRT with both directions on one street, rather than splitting on two streets.

I've said this before. Putting both lines on Main makes the most sense. King just isn't wide enough in places and putting the LRT on King would prohibit converting it back to two-way in the future.

Is there any support for main two way LRT?

I did a poll... though that's just opinion on here.

East/West LRT through the Downtown (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=158810)

[adam]

It is hard to believe they are even thinking of maintaining the antiquated one way streets from the 1950's for LRT. Sidewalks will need to be wider to accomodate the extra foot traffic, so sidewalks alone get rid of a lane of traffic. Add LRT and you are down to 2 lanes of traffic, one each way. We still need street parking, but this is an excellent opportunity to make King and Main 2 way

[LikeHamilton]

Are there any other cities who implemented LRT on one way streets? Was it a positive experience?


2 years ago I was in Vienna and they have a one-way street through the middle of the old city that has 2-way track system and it seem to work.

I have travelled through out the world, just spent the weekend in Montreal and I was in New Zealand for a month in January and every city has one-way streets. They have their purpose and place. Sometimes they are just an easy way out and sometime it is the best way to move traffic. We do not need to get rid of all one-way streets. This is just going to the other extreme. There has to be a balance on how we do our roads.

I do not have a picture of that street but here is a Vienna tram and a one-way street in Vienna (From my hotel window). Their tram system goes out into the countryside and we took it out to the wine country for an evening of wine tasting and eating. Very civilized!

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/6269/img0105wvq.jpg

[emge]

The land purchase is very encouraging. Great to hear about another place that's done it on one-ways as well - very interesting.

It would be my preference to have it all run on Main and both Main and King converted to two-way, just because I don't think King will ever be converted to two-way if you have an LRT track on there, because it's down to a couple lanes in certain parts already. Then again, who knows if it ever will be anyway.

[omro]

I also worry that if they put a line on King, that'll be an excuse not to put another line further north on Barton one day.

Having taken the bus up and down Barton a few times already in my first three days of living in Hamilton, I believe Barton really really really needs LRT and the associated investment. The street just screams potential.

[crhayes]

LOL... I don't see one North American car in the whole picture.

[emge]

I also worry that if they put a line on King, that'll be an excuse not to put another line further north on Barton one day.

Having taken the bus up and down Barton a few times already in my first three days of living in Hamilton, I believe Barton really really really needs LRT and the associated investment. The street just screams potential.

The potential in this city is ridiculous compared to anywhere near here. I've been here two years now and I'm still constantly amazed at those fwho can't see it or take on the "it'll never happen here" perspective (whether from here, or almost as soon as they move here.)

LRT on Barton's still a pipe dream, but it makes a whole lot of sense.

Regarding the King/Main split, the RTH article was a good read and I see how it's worked there -- but as far as costs go, I don't see our city wanting to pitch in for the more expensive option at all.

[SteelTown]

I rather see trolley service along Barton.

[adam]

LOL... I don't see one North American car in the whole picture.

I guess that's because the North American cars broke down before they could take the picture! :runaway:

[omro]

Regarding the King/Main split, the RTH article was a good read and I see how it's worked there -- but as far as costs go, I don't see our city wanting to pitch in for the more expensive option at all.

Which is considered the more expensive option?
A Main/King split or two-way LRT on Main throughout the downtown?

[markbarbera]

A preliminary study done last year showed the King/Main split option woud be considerably more expensive than 2-way LRT on Main alone.

[emge]

The two sets of tracks (I'm guessing) is what makes it more expensive? Seems logical enough. I just assumed that was the case.

[omro]

The two sets of tracks (I'm guessing) is what makes it more expensive? Seems logical enough. I just assumed that was the case.

Me too, I would consider putting the two tracks together to be a cost saving option and a maintenance saving option.

However, logical and how a City's bureaucracy views something... :shrug:

[markbarbera]

here is a link to last year's feasibility study (http://www.myhamilton.ca/NR/rdonlyres/5A27FE21-49F5-4AEE-AE7D-CD3F7B88B8BE/0/Apr14PW08043.pdf)

The study estimates the cost of constructing one-way LRT rail on a road at $15m/km, and the cost of placing both lanes on one road at $25m/km. The distance from University Plaza to Eastgate via Main Street is about 16km. The return trip via King is 17km. If LRT is run along Main alone, the cost of the rail construction would be about 16x$25m, or $400 million, while the cost of running the split lane concept would be 16x$15m + 17@$15m, or $495 million. So, running both lanes of LRT along Main is $95 million more cost effective.

[omro]

here is a link to last year's feasibility study (http://www.myhamilton.ca/NR/rdonlyres/5A27FE21-49F5-4AEE-AE7D-CD3F7B88B8BE/0/Apr14PW08043.pdf)

The study estimates the cost of constructing one-way LRT rail on a road at $15m/km, and the cost of placing both lanes on one road at $25m/km. The distance from University Plaza to Eastgate via Main Street is about 16km. The return trip via King is 17km. If LRT is run along Main alone, the cost of the rail construction would be about 16x$25m, or $400 million, while the cost of running the split lane concept would be 16x$15m + 17@$15m, or $495 million. So, running both lanes of LRT along Main is $95 million more cost effective.

That might mean nothing if they feel that it's more effort to convert roads to two way or have a two-way LRT on Main as the thin end of the wedge.

[emge]

here is a link to last year's feasibility study (http://www.myhamilton.ca/NR/rdonlyres/5A27FE21-49F5-4AEE-AE7D-CD3F7B88B8BE/0/Apr14PW08043.pdf)

The study estimates the cost of constructing one-way LRT rail on a road at $15m/km, and the cost of placing both lanes on one road at $25m/km. The distance from University Plaza to Eastgate via Main Street is about 16km. The return trip via King is 17km. If LRT is run along Main alone, the cost of the rail construction would be about 16x$25m, or $400 million, while the cost of running the split lane concept would be 16x$15m + 17@$15m, or $495 million. So, running both lanes of LRT along Main is $95 million more cost effective.

Thanks for that info. Good to have numbers to put to the concepts.

[SteelTown]

Tons of really interesting information on possible LRT for Hamilton here.....

Rapid Transit Corporate Working Team Workshop, Technical Advisory Committee and Corridor Property Owner Meetings
http://www.myhamilton.ca/NR/rdonlyres/02FB9642-6406-45B3-8699-3417399ADC9C/0/Apr20PW09034.pdf

Interesting part is that according to that report 1 way LRT might be cheaper than 2 way LRT.

[SteelTown]

Hamilton's Rapid Transit Office will go ahead with standard track gauge (1.435 m). Other specifications:

Vehicle Weight (Empty, average) 41 000 kg
Vehicle Weight (Full, average) 63 000 kg
Single Vehicle Height (may vary according to pantograph height) 3.9 m
Single Vehicle Length (average) (constrained by intersection spacing) 28 m
Single Vehicle Width 2.65 m
Horizontal Vehicle Clearance (total) 1.0 m
Vertical Vehicle Clearance (minimum) 4 m
Ballast/Track Bed Depth (average) 0.74 m
Passengers (seated/standing, average) 60/130

It'll either be Bombardier Flexity Outlook or Siemens Combino Plus.

[omro]

I think the Bombardier rolling stock looks a little nicer. Personal opinion only.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/116/290789318_92ac055850.jpg?v=0
Photo from flickr

Not sure if these are the same Bombardier trams as those mentioned above, however these are the trams in Nottingham and funnily enough that's the restaurant I had my goodbye dinner in when I went up to Nottingham to say bye to my colleagues after being made redundant. I saw several of these trams go past during the course of the meal. This street is also used by cars and buses.

BTW, the Nottingham tram system started off as one line and now has the green light, five years after the completion of the first line, for an expansion which will create an additional line and an extension to the original line.

BBC News (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7973110.stm)

[markbarbera]

Tons of really interesting information on possible LRT for Hamilton here.....

Rapid Transit Corporate Working Team Workshop, Technical Advisory Committee and Corridor Property Owner Meetings
http://www.myhamilton.ca/NR/rdonlyres/02FB9642-6406-45B3-8699-3417399ADC9C/0/Apr20PW09034.pdf

Interesting part is that according to that report 1 way LRT might be cheaper than 2 way LRT.

This is a good read.

Steeltown, if you are referring to the costing detailed in table 1 of the report, please bear in mind this is referencing the cost to reconfigure subsurface infrastructure only (sewers, gas lines, water pipes) and not the overall cost for building the rail component. This is a small fraction of the overall cost for building the rail. The embedded track system is where 1-way LRT becomes significantly more expensive to lay than 2-way.

OMRO, I am with you . I prefer the Bombardier rolling stock as well. And I'd be happier if we would source a Canadian company for an infrastructure project like this.

[SteelTown]

When it comes to purchasing vechicles for public transit the city has a bylaw that it must be Canadian produced, hence New Flyer for the buses.

Do Siemens make their LRT in Canada? I know there's a few Siemens factories in Canada, even one in Hamilton.

Also from the report it looks like the Rapid Transit Office has ruled out any two way LRT on Main St. Narrowed down to two way LRT on King or one way LRT on King/Main.

From the report.....
Two options for the corridor segment between Paradise Road and the Delta

o Option A – convert both King Street and Main Street to two-way operation, with median LRT operation on King Street
o Option B – retain one-way operation with LRT in curb lane or in second lane
o Contra-flow schemes not recommended for safety reasons

[markbarbera]

The Combino is built in Krefeld-Uerdingen, Germany.

[omro]

o Contra-flow schemes not recommended for safety reasons

What??

Two-way LRT is commonplace!

[MalcolmTucker]

When it comes to purchasing vechicles for public transit the city has a bylaw that it must be Canadian produced, hence New Flyer for the buses.

Do Siemens make their LRT in Canada? I know there's a few Siemens factories in Canada, even one in Hamilton.

Also from the report it looks like the Rapid Transit Office has ruled out any two way LRT on Main St. Narrowed down to two way LRT on King or one way LRT on King/Main.

From the report.....
Two options for the corridor segment between Paradise Road and the Delta

o Option A – convert both King Street and Main Street to two-way operation, with median LRT operation on King Street
o Option B – retain one-way operation with LRT in curb lane or in second lane
o Contra-flow schemes not recommended for safety reasons
Siemens' plant for LRT cars is in San Diego. At least for the ones in Calgary and Edmonton.

[SteelTown]

It'll either be Bombardier Flexity Outlook or Siemens Combino Plus.

Bombardier wins $1.3B deal to build Toronto streetcars

TORONTO — The Toronto Transit Commission has chosen Bombardier Inc. (TSX:BBD.B) for a contract worth more than $1.2 billion to supply 204 new streetcars.

The procurement recommendation from the staff of the country's largest transit authority envisages spending $993 million for the streetcars, plus $293.1 million for spare parts, options and other items, a total of $1.29 billion including taxes.

After GST rebates, the total expected cost is $1.22 billion.

Two companies were in the running to replace Toronto's aging streetcar fleet: Bombardier Transportation Canada, which has been making streetcars for decades in Thunder Bay, Ont., and Germany's Siemens.

Siemens had put forward a substantially higher bid -- $1.525 billion for the streetcars, or about 50 per cent more than the Bombardier bid.

Both companies had promised that at least one-quarter of the production work would be done in Canada.

http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20090424/TTC_deal_090424/20090424?hub=Toronto

http://images.ctv.ca/archives/CTVNews/img2/20090424/500_toronto_streetcar.jpg

http://images.ctv.ca/archives/CTVNews/img2/20090424/450_inside_streetcar_090424.jpg

[Jon Dalton]

I've been on those streetcars and they're awesome. They aren't built in Canada though. I guess some of the parts will be built in Thunder Bay.

[crhayes]

That street car is very attractive... the concept for the inside is nice as well!

[omro]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/116/290789318_92ac055850.jpg?v=0

I've been on these in Nottingham several times and they are very comfortable and smooth

[thistleclub]

http://images.ctv.ca/archives/CTVNews/img2/20090424/600_cp24_ttc_streetcar_2.jpg

The Globe's John Barber ostensibly swings at the squelchers (http://tinyurl.com/dk8ra5) in a comment piece from today's paper.

[SteelTown]

New Rapid Transit Line 20 A-Line begins service September 6, 2009.

[SteelTown]

From RTH....

Rapid Transit Office now has a perferred B-Line route....

http://www.raisethehammer.org/images/lrt_route_preferred_option_2009_03.jpg

Two way LRT for it's entire route, using King St instead of Main St from Paradise Road to the Delta Square. Convert Main and King St back to two way car traffic.

[FairHamilton]

Looks great!!

Converting King and Main back to two-way is key (paramount), in my opinion.

[Jon Dalton]

Awesome. That is my preferred option as well. It definitely comes as a surpries to me that it was favoured by consultants and the city.

Another plus for 2-way LRT on King is that storefronts along the B-line will actually be visible to passengers. If LRT ran on Main, though the shops are in close proximity, you wouldn't be able to see them.

The current fare system discourages stopovers as they are likely to incur another fare but LRT will mean the end to that system. It will likely be replaced by magnetic tickets which are validated upon boarding and most likely will provide a more flexible fare structure. Some of the LRT's I've rode allow you unlimited travel for 2 hours after purchase.

I believe that making King Street accessible to LRT passengers, who will be more diverse in their economic status than bus passengers, will prove to be better for business than retaining curbside parking. There will be more potential customers on the LRT's passing every 10 minutes than however many parking spots there are at 1.2 average occupants per vehicle.

[markbarbera]

I am extremely concerned about the LRT route being 2-way along King. Given the limited road width allowances along King, it is extremely unlikely that it can accomodate both dedicated right-of-way LRT and streetside parking along King between Dundurn and the Delta. I can't see local businesses suporting this at all. Today, most retailers along King complain that there is not enough curbside parking, and now this proposal will eliminate it entirely.

The Main Street two-way LRT option has not been given proper consideration by the Rapid Transit office, which is doing the city a great disservice. Fortunately, Metrolinx will be performing its own independant case benefit analysis for potential routes not limited by the restrictions our city's Rapid Transit office has artificially imposed.

[SteelTown]

The redevelopment of the old Sandbar Tavern will address the parking issue for most businesses on King St East.

[markbarbera]

Actually, Steeltown, it would address it for only a small stretch of King. Having a parking garage at King and Walnut will not help the businesses on King by Hess, or King at Wentworth. The whole length of King will lose curbside parking, which will have a huge impact on the businesses on King.

In addition, you can say goodbye to local transit service along King Street such as the King, Delaware or University bus routes. Once King Street has just one lane of automobile traffic in either direction, bus service with frequent stops will have to be extensively reduced or even eliminated. Otherwise the traffic bottlenecks will become unmanageable.

[SteelTown]

There is that LCBO/Shoppers/Rogers retail/parking garage proposal for King and Hess that might include residential units. From what I learned it might even include a park and ride feature.

1 King bus might have to change to 1 Main bus.

[Jon Dalton]

Parking can't be the number one concern here. There is also the lot off King near Ferguson, the lot beside Denningers, sidestreets with parking, and various unused spaces that could be made available. The parking issue can be mitigated if there are smaller parking lots interspersed along the route and well signed. This could prove to be more car-friendly than curbside parking with the need to scout out a spot, slow down while people behind you want to keep moving, and parallel park. A totally revitalized pedestrian friendly street with LRT both ways will do more for business than a few parking spots.

[flar]

I still can't believe they won't run LRT into Dundas. I've explained it before, Dundas' core has the density, University Plaza is a dead end.

[LikeHamilton]

I found this picture of what King Street looked like when it had 2 way street car service. This is at King & Furguson Streets.

http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/5626/hsr33.jpg

[mishap]

The current fare system discourages stopovers as they are likely to incur another fare but LRT will mean the end to that system.
The current HSR fare system totally allows for stopovers, and even a return trip. You have at least 90 minutes to complete your trip (or at least board your final bus). Technically, you have end-of-line-plus-90, so there are many situations where riders are getting far more than 90 minutes.

[bigguy1231]

As much as I would like to see rapid transit in this city, the preferred route of the planners is just not going to fly with the citizens of this city.

Once they realize that all they are getting is a glorified street car system that will render King St. useless for cars through the whole city, the opposition is going to grow.

When people were asked if they were in favour of rapid transit, they overwhelmingly supported it. What they weren't told was that streetcars are considered rapid transit. Which it is not. You can try and dress this up all you want but this is not rapid transit.

Rapid transit should enhance current modes of transit not hinder them as this plan will. Rapid transit should be limited access stations with dedicated rights of way and should not be run down the middle of one of the busiest streets in the city rendering that street useless.

If we are going to build something and call it rapid transit it is going to have to be built either under or over the current road system. The citizens of this city are not going to approve of billions of dollars being spent on something that is essentially no better than what we already have. All it's going to do is take the current busses off King and Main street and replace them with streetcars and at the same time create a traffic bottleneck for those who choose to use their cars.

The plan as presented is not acceptable to me and I am sure a majority of taxpayers in this city. Once the plans are finalized and presented to the city for approval the opposition is going to mount. Councillors who now favour these proposals will waiver in their support, especially with next year being an election year.

[mic67]

bigguy1231

You have got it SO right....seems that very few have figured out what rapid transit really is.

Most every HSR driver I have asked believes and LRT will not happen, likely a BRT.

Streetcars in Toronto are far from rapid transit. Generally and specifically the TTC is rubbish, the HSR rocks except on off hours and on Sundays.

mic67

[adam]

Everything in the previous post about streetcars is misinformation. Whether this was done deliberately or out of ignorance is anyone's guess. :shrug:

[emge]

Does it really have to be said again that Rapid transit, whether buses or light rail, will have dedicated rights of way?

Does it really have to be said again that streetcars are VERY different from light rail, and streetcars aren't even an option under consideration?

we may just have a troll on this topic...

But hey, just in case we don't...
http://i367.photobucket.com/albums/oo116/MerBot/128857780816385979.png

[matt602]

Yah, the monorail worked pretty well for North Haverbrook. By god it put them on the map.

[omro]

I found this picture of what King Street looked like when it had 2 way street car service. This is at King & Furguson Streets.

http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/5626/hsr33.jpg

Love that photo, I love the old fashioned streetcar looks.

It looks like the cars are sharing the streetcar lanes rather than the streetcars having dedicated lanes, right?