Rapid Transit

[ShavedParmesanCheese]

Amongst the repetition and the run-on sentences of the impromptu speeches, the announcement made today has thankfully been clear on a few things.

- The route will not be impeded or altered
- The province/feds will contribute 50/50 to the construction
- The city only has to provide operating costs

I think the best thing to hear was the reply somebody made to a question about if council decides to pursue BRT instead; "then there is no deal" - Minister McKenna.

Exciting stuff. :notacrook:

[TheHonestMaple]

Full stream can be found here (https://www.chch.com/watch-live-federal-provincial-governments-to-make-hamilton-lrt-announcement-at-10-a-m/)

[Innsertnamehere]

Basically the province / feds seem to be doing what they did to Toronto - doing their transit planning for them.

Recall that the province wrote off Toronto’s Relief Line plan and instituted their own. Same here. Council doesn’t have a decision or input if the plan is happening. It has input on paying for operating - which they have to agree to eventually.

Much like the province recently telling the city that they must expand the urban boundary or the province will do it for them - here the province is telling council it must accept the LRT or they will just build it anyway.

[lachlanholmes]

Basically the province / feds seem to be doing what they did to Toronto - doing their transit planning for them.

Recall that the province wrote off Toronto’s Relief Line plan and instituted their own. Same here. Council doesn’t have a decision or input if the plan is happening. It has input on paying for operating - which they have to agree to eventually.

Much like the province recently telling the city that they must expand the urban boundary or the province will do it for them - here the province is telling council it must accept the LRT or they will just build it anyway.

Hallelujah. Less opportunity for the unbelievable councillors hell-bent on destroying our LRT the better.

[SteelTown]

Thank god for someone like Catherine McKenna. :worship:

If it wasn't for her I doubt we would ever see LRT.

[SteelTown]

I'm glad McKenna right away nipped it in the bud for BRT. The City better not waste time and approve the memorandum of understanding.

[mishap]

Yes you're right, I should've just said McMaster. The plans have always been from Mac -> Eastgate, but the 10 goes to University Plaza. Of course, we don't know the specifics yet. Not till Thursday.
There was talk of extending the 10 right into Dundas as well, but that's out now.

There has been so much... truth-bending and internally inconsistent logic during the planning process for the project that I can see why people are leery about it.
An example: There are no real plans to extend the line to University Plaza, much less Dundas. One reason told to me at a public meeting is that the creek is too difficult to cross, as is the hill into old Dundas. Which is funny considering that Osler Drive is right next to the rail trail. You know, a former rail line... running over that creek.

Another: They are insisting on spending tens of millions of dollars on a new crossing over the 403 because - they say - a sharper turn at Paradise or Longwood would slow the train down too much. Kitchener's LRT has several tight turns. Just one here would be tolerable. Meanwhile, they didn't want to build a grade separation across the rail spur in the east end (but the rail company insisted), as though that wouldn't cause delays. That tells me that the 403 crossing isn't just for function... it's a showpiece structure.

I get that they're going to do what they want to do, but at least be somewhat honest about it.

[bigguy1231]

It is all going to come down to operating costs that the city will be on the hook for. If it is 20 or 30 million a year this is dead in the water. Hell even if it's 10 million per year it's dead.

[ScreamingViking]

An example: There are no real plans to extend the line to University Plaza, much less Dundas. One reason told to me at a public meeting is that the creek is too difficult to cross, as is the hill into old Dundas. Which is funny considering that Osler Drive is right next to the rail trail. You know, a former rail line... running over that creek.

Another: They are insisting on spending tens of millions of dollars on a new crossing over the 403 because - they say - a sharper turn at Paradise or Longwood would slow the train down too much. Kitchener's LRT has several tight turns. Just one here would be tolerable. Meanwhile, they didn't want to build a grade separation across the rail spur in the east end (but the rail company insisted), as though that wouldn't cause delays. That tells me that the 403 crossing isn't just for function... it's a showpiece structure.


I don't think there's any reason this could not be extended right into downtown Dundas in the future. The Osler incline between Governors Rd. and South St. is long and fairly steep, but I don't think it will be much different for LRT than the CP rail grade separation near Gage.

The ramps onto the 403 are probably the biggest complication with running the tracks along King over the highway. If that was the plan they may need to be reconfigured, or at least have another signalized crossing to allow autos to traverse the tracks to get from the north to south lanes and vice versa, which traffic engineers would be reluctant to do so close to the lights at Dundurn and the Fortinos plaza.

There was also some doubt about existing bridges being strong enough to support the LRT. This was examined for RHVP overpass on Queenston... I believe it was found to be ok, but perhaps that's an issue with the bridges over the 403? (though they were rehabbed not long ago); if there's a need to be beef up the structure to support railbeds and trains it could be a costly project, with large construction impacts to traffic flow on a very busy stretch of road.

[mishap]

I don't think there's any reason this could not be extended right into downtown Dundas in the future.
I don't either, but they seem to want to find reasons.
What might actually be better is to run a future phase to the Meadowlands. The Hydro corridor that passes the Main and Osler area has been flagged as a potential, if unlikely, transit route. The escarpment crossing could be a shared bus-rail roadway for HSR and GO that would outperform an overcrowded Highway 403, and open up Park-n-Ride options at an intermodal terminal in the Meadowlands.

The ramps onto the 403 are probably the biggest complication with running the tracks along King over the highway.
With 3.4 billion, the whole interchange should be redone, and Main and King should be converted to two-way streets. Under the current plans, it will be very easy go travel eastbound, and hard to get westbound. I expect that will change, but the info shown at public meetings acts like it isn't going to happen. Where (looking west) the LRT shifts from Main to King, traffic should be diverted from King to Main. Forget eastbound and westbound streets; basically, between the Delta and the 403, Main should be the traffic corridor, and King should be the transit corridor.

There was also some doubt about existing bridges being strong enough to support the LRT. This was examined for RHVP overpass on Queenston... I believe it was found to be ok,
If they want to really tout the environmental benefits of light rail, the Queenston/ RHVP interchange should be rebuilt as a SPUI (Single-Point Urban Interchange) as part of the project. Look up 406/ Fourth Ave as an example. It uses less land and would free up some valley space at one of its narrowest points. The current bridge would be close to 40 years old by the time LRT is ready to go.

[TheHonestMaple]

Do the LRT stops have enclosed shelters? Or are these more like bus stops? I haven't really seen any details. What was the need to demolish all those buildings along the route?

[ScreamingViking]

The design will likely change, but here are some concepts from past news stories.

https://i.cbc.ca/1.3086844.1432585249!/fileImage/httpImage/image.png_gen/derivatives/16x9_780/hamilton-lrt-rendering-fortino-s.png
Source (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/province-says-hamilton-s-lrt-plan-can-move-forward-1.4234188)

https://img.masstransitmag.com/files/base/cygnus/mass/image/2021/02/16x9/Rendering_HamiltonLRT_cityofHamilton_Metrolinx.60240be28a99f.png?auto=format&w=720
Source (https://www.masstransitmag.com/rail/article/21209645/hamilton-lrt-back-on-ontarios-priority-list-of-transit-projects)


Or look to KW's Ion system... ours will probably be similar.

https://www.infrastructureontario.ca/uploadedImages/_CONTENT/Projects/Waterloos_Rapid_Transit_System/Exterior_Photograph_of_WaterlooLRT_1.png?n=6671
https://www.infrastructureontario.ca/uploadedImages/_CONTENT/Projects/Waterloos_Rapid_Transit_System/Exterior_Photograph_of_WaterlooLRT_3.png
https://www.infrastructureontario.ca/uploadedImages/_CONTENT/Projects/Waterloos_Rapid_Transit_System/Exterior_Photograph_of_WaterlooLRT_4.png
Source (https://www.infrastructureontario.ca/Region-of-Waterloos-Light-Rail-Transit-System/)

https://img.masstransitmag.com/files/base/cygnus/mass/image/2019/06/16x9/ION_ConestogaStation_creditRegionofWaterloo.5d0eeab15b210.png?auto=format&w=720
Source (https://www.masstransitmag.com/rail/infrastructure/article/21085914/region-of-waterloos-ion-light-rail-opens-for-service)

[Innsertnamehere]

Do the LRT stops have enclosed shelters? Or are these more like bus stops? I haven't really seen any details. What was the need to demolish all those buildings along the route?

There isn’t space for the stations areas, road lanes, LRT lanes, and sidewalks on some parts of the route so some buildings needed to be demolished. The stations will be fairly simple as you can see in the images above, but they still need space.

They are also going to build a rail to rail grade separation near Gage, which takes up a lot of space so a bunch of properties there were needed.

Most of the land needs will just be the first couple of metres of most properties. They will be put back on the market in their slightly smaller form after the LRT is complete for redevelopment.

[TheHonestMaple]

There isn’t space for the stations areas, road lanes, LRT lanes, and sidewalks on some parts of the route so some buildings needed to be demolished. The stations will be fairly simple as you can see in the images above, but they still need space.

They are also going to build a rail to rail grade separation near Gage, which takes up a lot of space so a bunch of properties there were needed.

Most of the land needs will just be the first couple of metres of most properties. They will be put back on the market in their slightly smaller form after the LRT is complete for redevelopment.

Can you expand on this rail to rail grade separation near Gage? Is the LRT going under the existing train tracks?

[ScreamingViking]

Can you expand on this rail to rail grade separation near Gage? I havn't heard about that.

CP doesn't want the LRT to cross their track at grade. So they will have to dig down and create an underpass for the transit line.

[TheHonestMaple]

Do we have any pictures of what that may look like?

[TheRitsman]

Do we have any pictures of what that may look like?

I don't have pictures for the tunnel, but I have the Environment Assessment design plates for the entire line. Subject to change by the company that builds LRT though. These are considered draft.

[ScreamingViking]

This report has some drawings, but no renders. I don't recall ever seeing an illustration but this underpass will be one of the more complex parts of construction. The plan was to keep the road and sidewalk at grade so this would just be for the LRT; I imagine that could change too.

https://www.hamilton.ca/sites/default/files/media/browser/2017-05-26/hamilton-lrt-environmental-pr-appendix-c-8-review-of-b-line-geotechnical-report.pdf

[TheHonestMaple]

I don't have pictures for the tunnel, but I have the Environment Assessment design plates for the entire line. Subject to change by the company that builds LRT though. These are considered draft.

Where can I find that, i'd like to check that out.

Edit: nice, thanks

[ScreamingViking]

The city's LRT webpage has a lot of info. Take a wander through, you'll probably find details you're interested in seeing.

https://www.hamilton.ca/city-initiatives/priority-projects/light-rail-transit-lrt

[TheRitsman]

Yea it is this PDF: https://pub-hamilton.escribemeetings.com/filestream.ashx?DocumentId=125295

I thought they'd taken down the page honestly...

[ScreamingViking]

The 2017 Environmental Project Report Addendum (https://www.hamilton.ca/city-initiatives/priority-projects/2017-environmental-project-report-addendum) page on the city site looks like it has the most complete (and recent) set of detailed information.

[Beedok]

Oof, that’s quite a lot of stuff getting torn down (including some quite nice buildings)... hopefully the replacements will go up quickly. (And be built to a decent quality.)


[Also, really wish that pdf would have stayed loaded for me. By the end it was spending more time reloading than open. I had to give up just a smidge past Gage.]

[ShavedParmesanCheese]

Oof, that’s quite a lot of stuff getting torn down (including some quite nice buildings)... hopefully the replacements will go up quickly. (And be built to a decent quality)

Vrancor can only build so many things at once, we should be safe :P

Hopefully some density or height requirements are enforced. It'd be a welcome sight to see some 3/5/7 storey buildings replace those empty lots.

[TheHonestMaple]

The Public Record: Council Has to Accept Yes for an Answer: A Prediction on the LRT Vote (https://www.thepublicrecord.ca/2021/05/council-has-to-accept-yes-for-an-answer-a-prediction-on-the-lrt-vote/)

[ScreamingViking]

The Public Record: Council Has to Accept Yes for an Answer: A Prediction on the LRT Vote (https://www.thepublicrecord.ca/2021/05/council-has-to-accept-yes-for-an-answer-a-prediction-on-the-lrt-vote/)

I applaud his optimism, and I do think this will pass (unless there's a MAJOR dust-up in a council meeting and vindictiveness sets in).

But I think more of those suburban councillors will be weighing re-election in their decision, and if their count of prospective votes favours the anti-LRT people in their wards, their support will favour that position too. So this could be a skin-of-teeth situation. Perhaps someone with a swing vote will use it to grandstand and show how they "saved the day!" This is something a Merulla or Whitehead could very well do, and do very well.

There could also be horse-trading, however. Hopefully for better transit services as pointed out in that article. It could even lead to the actual birth of other BLAST routes... maybe beginning in the form of peak period express service between Waterdown and the downtown GO stations, along Rymal and Centennial, Mohawk Rd., etc.

[LikeHamilton]

From http://hamiltonlightrail.ca/

On May 13, 2021, the Honourable Catherine McKenna, federal Minister of Infrastructure and Communities and Caroline Mulroney, Ontario Minister of Transportation announced that both governments have signed a deal to invest $3.4 billion in the shovel-ready Hamilton Light Rail Transit (LRT) project. The last hurdle to overcome is Hamilton City council who will need to express support for the plan before it moves forward.

We need to make our voices heard. Click here to tell City Council to support this incredible plan: 


Your continued engagement has made a big impact. Minister McKenna specifically mentioned grassroots support as being a driving factor that led to this new plan.

Each government is contributing 50% of eligible project costs, up to $1.7 billion and the investment is designated for LRT only. This new transit system will offer frequent and reliable service from McMaster University in the west, through downtown Hamilton to Eastgate Square.

We all know the tremendous benefits, but they are worth repeating: LRT will create 7,000 jobs, provide economic uplift, increase affordable housing, cut CO2 emissions and replace aging underground infrastructure. Further, this will be a very important post-pandemic stimulus project to help kick-start our economy.

This is an "all-or-nothing" offer from the federal and provincial governments so the time for delay is over.

Please click the link and send a strong message to Hamilton City Council to support the new Hamilton LRT plan: 

http://hamiltonlightrail.ca/statements/new

Thank you. Please stay safe and healthy.

[ShavedParmesanCheese]

Shout at the council. Shout at your alderman. Shout at everybody. This is a gilded opportunity even they aren't stupid enough to pass up... I hope. :notacrook:

[davidcappi]

Hamilton council is for sure gonna find a way to kill it - much to the benefit of other cities with transit plans awaiting funding.

[jonny24]

Please click the link and send a strong message to Hamilton City Council to support the new Hamilton LRT plan: 

http://hamiltonlightrail.ca/statements/new

Thank you. Please stay safe and healthy.

Also if you check out the contact list it sets up for you, it's impressively long, much more than Hamilton City Council. Very easy way to send a message to all the stakeholders involved. :cheers:

[craftbeerdad]

Our former mayor isn't running for re-election because of conflicting views with LRT. What a shame.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/bratina-lrt-election-1.6029368

[TheHonestMaple]

Our former mayor isn't running for re-election because of conflicting views with LRT. What a shame.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/bratina-lrt-election-1.6029368

Seems to me a lot of people miss the point of LRT entirely. It is a public transit mode, yes. But the certainty (you can't move a train line), allows developers to build commercial and residential buildings on the line with confidence. It's a net benefit to the tax base, not a drain like Bratina is suggesting. Does he not understand that the LRT, although yes will have large operating costs, will attract businesses and residents to the city that will as a result increase the tax base.

Bratina's view is a simple uneducated one. It's a shame he can't understand the project for what it's worth.

[ScreamingViking]

Bratina is a fool. But he probably figures most of the people who voted for him are against it, so he must toot his old horn and there's no point educating himself.

And now we have editorials, like this one from the Stoney Creek News, pumping up the suburban inequality balloon and quoting the province's cancellation-excuse-oranges-to-apples-numbers...


"But despite the excitement from LRT supporters, it will be local taxpayers, especially those residents in the suburban areas, who are expected to pay the bulk of the project’s cost, while seeing limited benefits to their communities.

During the announcement, politicians attempted to salve opponents’ wounds by talking about LRT as the first phase of establishing the 25-year transportation network called BLAST that would stretch across the city from the Mountain, Ancaster, Dundas and Flamborough. But again, that utopian ideal remains embedded on paper, a project for another set of politicians.

Yet, it rankles that the bus rapid transit option, which would have provided a similar transit option for residents at lower cost than LRT and would have directly benefited a greater area of the Hamilton, has been summarily kicked to the curb.

Questions remain about how a project once estimated to cost $5.5 billion will now cost only $3.4 billion? Where is the rest of the cost for the project coming from? Or, for that matter, how were the project’s costs reduced? Can it attract enough riders to be viable without in additional investment in feeder transit lines?"
https://www.hamiltonnews.com/opinion-story/10393601-hamilton-lrt-s-bumpy-ride-to-the-end/

[ScreamingViking]

The city finance and planning departments could really help make the case by showing how urban and suburban and rural property taxes are likely to change with the LRT vs. without, based on more than just probable operating cost changes for the transit system. You'd basically be comparing a scenario where more growth is centralized via intensification, with one where suburban expansion dominates, and looking at the infrastructure and servicing costs over a long period.

Of course, just because you have those numbers doesn't mean people will believe them, especially the crowd that argues they subsidize the old city. But it could win over councillors who are rubbing their hands raw about operating costs.

[urban_planner]

I hate the argument that it doesn't benefit the whole city. Guess what, neither do the Linc and Red Hill Valley Parkway but the whole city pays for that.

[TheHonestMaple]

I hate the argument that it doesn't benefit the whole city. Guess what, neither do the Linc and Red Hill Valley Parkway but the whole city pays for that.

bingo. Totally agree.

[ScreamingViking]

I hate the argument that it doesn't benefit the whole city. Guess what, neither do the Linc and Red Hill Valley Parkway but the whole city pays for that.

One can argue that there are indirect benefits to the entire city, but we can do that for LRT as well.

[LikeHamilton]

Funny that Quebec City is planning to build a 23 km, $3.3-billion Tramway project that will have 2 sections underground. One of them will be under the old city with 5 stations in that part. They too are touting infrastructure upgrades and replacement that they do not have to do. Quebec has so far promised an $1.8-billion investment. Ottawa is also pitching in $1.2 billion, and Quebec City another $300 million.

The extra 6 km in Hamilton would take our LRT to the Hwy 8 hill in Dundas and Fruitland Road in Stoney Creek.

And we don't have to put anything in!

[Beedok]

I really wonder how they’re getting 5 underground station and those extra kilometres with less money... are the two bridges really more expensive than tunnelling is?

[Innsertnamehere]

Hamilton has a more complex underground infrastructure and it's getting put through the P3 process.. It's not clear exactly what the scope of the $3.4 billion cost is. Is it capital construction costs + financing + land + 30 years of operating and maitenence? Is it just capital? What?

The Quebec cost very well could be just the capital cost, while the Hamilton is construction, design, land acquisition, maintenance for 30 years, financing costs for 30 years, etc.

[TheRitsman]

Hamilton has a more complex underground infrastructure and it's getting put through the P3 process.. It's not clear exactly what the scope of the $3.4 billion cost is. Is it capital construction costs + financing + land + 30 years of operating and maitenence? Is it just capital? What?

The Quebec cost very well could be just the capital cost, while the Hamilton is construction, design, land acquisition, maintenance for 30 years, financing costs for 30 years, etc.

The Feds and Province have made it clear that the city is responsible for operations and maintenance just like any other transit project or transit line.

I am curious at the immense cost as well. I suspect there are a few things going on. A massive number of properties needed to be acquired for this project. I'm not sure that Quebec City or Montreal's or Ottawa's required this many. Secondly the bridges are likely factored in, in the case they need to be replaced. The bridge over the 403 is especially expensive as it is a massive bridge, crossing a huge gap.

The underground portion under existing rail lines complicates things as well, and it's very likely Hamilton has complex underground infrastructure. Many sewers in Hamilton are old brick lined sewers and much of the underground infrastructure isn't actually known or documented that well. We may well run into a Kitchener situation where there is something of archeological significance found.

I still wonder at the costs, since they haven't been priced out but that's the point of the RFP. The government has estimated, and the finally cost will come down to the company that wins the bidding process.

[ScreamingViking]

I really wonder how they’re getting 5 underground station and those extra kilometres with less money... are the two bridges really more expensive than tunnelling is?

Bridges aren't cheap, but tunnelling is the most expensive thing when it comes to building transit infrastructure. Underground stations are especially more costly than surface stops.

I'm going to bet a HUGE contingency has been built into the deal for Hamilton, until they can see what the bids are. The procurement model may factor into that as well (e.g., financing is mentioned above... did they include that for the capital portion of costs?). And perhaps the Quebec total has also been *very* underestimated.

Hamilton LRT should be comparable in cost to the Hurontario LRT, though probably somewhat higher per km because there is much older infrastructure underneath that requires replacement (I also don't know if the need to buy up and demo properties is as great in Mississauga). The CP rail grade separation will be costly because it involves a fairly deep excavation for about 350 metres or so -- from the earlier drawings it looks like it would begin just east of Gage and end just east of Glendale Ave -- but not as much as tunnelling the same distance.

I'd love to see the breakdown. So much number play has been done, and there are very different forms of dollars that can easily be conflated with each other or include/exclude specific costs of the project.

[Innsertnamehere]

The Feds and Province have made it clear that the city is responsible for operations and maintenance just like any other transit project or transit line.

I am curious at the immense cost as well. I suspect there are a few things going on. A massive number of properties needed to be acquired for this project. I'm not sure that Quebec City or Montreal's or Ottawa's required this many. Secondly the bridges are likely factored in, in the case they need to be replaced. The bridge over the 403 is especially expensive as it is a massive bridge, crossing a huge gap.

The underground portion under existing rail lines complicates things as well, and it's very likely Hamilton has complex underground infrastructure. Many sewers in Hamilton are old brick lined sewers and much of the underground infrastructure isn't actually known or documented that well. We may well run into a Kitchener situation where there is something of archeological significance found.

I still wonder at the costs, since they haven't been priced out but that's the point of the RFP. The government has estimated, and the finally cost will come down to the company that wins the bidding process.

All I've seen is that Hamilton is expected to cover operating costs - as far as I know maintenance is planned to be bundled in the P3.

Honestly just including 30 years of financing costs can send a project's "cost" up significantly. The Hurontario LRT had an estimated construction cost of $1.4 billion but it's final P3 contract was for $4.6 billion for example, as lots of other costs that are typically excluded were thrown in. Same with Finch West - original capital budget was $1.2 billion but P3 contract value was $2.5 billion.

The P3 finance model inflates project costs as it includes far more costs than typically indicated in a traditional procurement method.

Also the Hamilton LRT has a wide range of "add ons" to it that were to be bundled into the contract, like the Frid Street extension, for example.

[Innsertnamehere]

The Feds and Province have made it clear that the city is responsible for operations and maintenance just like any other transit project or transit line.

I am curious at the immense cost as well. I suspect there are a few things going on. A massive number of properties needed to be acquired for this project. I'm not sure that Quebec City or Montreal's or Ottawa's required this many. Secondly the bridges are likely factored in, in the case they need to be replaced. The bridge over the 403 is especially expensive as it is a massive bridge, crossing a huge gap.

The underground portion under existing rail lines complicates things as well, and it's very likely Hamilton has complex underground infrastructure. Many sewers in Hamilton are old brick lined sewers and much of the underground infrastructure isn't actually known or documented that well. We may well run into a Kitchener situation where there is something of archeological significance found.

I still wonder at the costs, since they haven't been priced out but that's the point of the RFP. The government has estimated, and the finally cost will come down to the company that wins the bidding process.

All I've seen is that Hamilton is expected to cover operating costs - as far as I know maintenance is planned to be bundled in the P3.

Honestly just including 30 years of financing costs can send a project's "cost" up significantly. The Hurontario LRT had an estimated construction cost of $1.4 billion but it's final P3 contract was for $4.6 billion for example, as lots of other costs that are typically excluded were thrown in. Same with Finch west - original capital budget was $1.2 billion but P3 contract value was $2.5 billion.

The problem is that IO rarely breaks the costs in these contracts down, so we don't know the actual construction value. The original Eglinton Crosstown contract had a contract value $9.1 billion, but of that only $5.3 billion was actually construction, for example. We just don't know that number for every project as it hasn't been released.

[TheHonestMaple]

What will it cost local taxpayers to run a Hamilton LRT? - Hamilton Spectator (https://www.thespec.com/news/hamilton-region/2021/05/21/what-will-it-cost-local-taxpayers-to-run-a-hamilton-lrt.html)

Where Hamilton city councillors stand on the $3.4B offer for LRT - CBC (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/lrt-hamilton-1.6034525)

[bigguy1231]

Since the only people that will benefit from this are the people that live in Wards 1 -5 lets area rate the costs so that they pay for any expenses related to it.

[TheRitsman]

Since the only people that will benefit from this are the people that live in Wards 1 -5 lets area rate the costs so that they pay for any expenses related to it.

That is a terrible idea, and what has led to Hamilton's horrifically terrible lack of expansion. When areas of the city don't pay for something, it's hard to expand there because people won't want to pay for something new. It's why Waterdown has shitty bus service. It's the same problem as Burlington where wealthy people with cars have no interest in paying for public transit.

The other problem, is that area rating in general is a terrible practice. It's selfish, and isn't well explained by anything other than "it not by me, or I'm not going to use it, so I should pay for it!"

I have to pay for your snow clearing, I'm going to pay for your road to be resurfaced, I have to pay for schools, despite having no children. That's not the contract we signed when we joined society, voluntarily or not, we agreed to pay into a pot for the greater good.

Further more, the increased property tax revenue from development along the route will be spread city wide, further subsidizing the suburbs.

If you want to area rate it I'm fine with that, so long as you cannot ride it without paying the full price per ride, so instead of a ~$3 fee, you will pay the full $7-$8 it costs per ride to run the HSR. Every single cents from today onward of increased property taxes along the corridor will also be required to stay within the wards paying for the improve connectivity and investment. Strange, that doesn't sound as great now that the wards paying get all the benefits, rather than the situation you and others dreamt up where other people pay for something that benefits you indirectly, even if you never step foot on the LRT.

[Beedok]

Since the only people that will benefit from this are the people that live in Wards 1 -5 lets area rate the costs so that they pay for any expenses related to it.

The freed up buses mean it’s cheaper to spread service to the rest of the city. So everywhere with HSR service is benefitting. :shrug:

[TheHonestMaple]

Since the only people that will benefit from this are the people that live in Wards 1 -5 lets area rate the costs so that they pay for any expenses related to it.

So only the wards that the Linc run through should pay for that highway? Come on.

[bigguy1231]

The freed up buses mean it’s cheaper to spread service to the rest of the city. So everywhere with HSR service is benefitting. :shrug:

If the cost of running the LRT is as much as they say it will be they will be using the HSR budget to cover it. HSR service will go downhill.

[bigguy1231]

That is a terrible idea, and what has led to Hamilton's horrifically terrible lack of expansion. When areas of the city don't pay for something, it's hard to expand there because people won't want to pay for something new. It's why Waterdown has shitty bus service. It's the same problem as Burlington where wealthy people with cars have no interest in paying for public transit.

The other problem, is that area rating in general is a terrible practice. It's selfish, and isn't well explained by anything other than "it not by me, or I'm not going to use it, so I should pay for it!"

I have to pay for your snow clearing, I'm going to pay for your road to be resurfaced, I have to pay for schools, despite having no children. That's not the contract we signed when we joined society, voluntarily or not, we agreed to pay into a pot for the greater good.

Further more, the increased property tax revenue from development along the route will be spread city wide, further subsidizing the suburbs.

If you want to area rate it I'm fine with that, so long as you cannot ride it without paying the full price per ride, so instead of a ~$3 fee, you will pay the full $7-$8 it costs per ride to run the HSR. Every single cents from today onward of increased property taxes along the corridor will also be required to stay within the wards paying for the improve connectivity and investment. Strange, that doesn't sound as great now that the wards paying get all the benefits, rather than the situation you and others dreamt up where other people pay for something that benefits you indirectly, even if you never step foot on the LRT.

I haven't used the HSR in 30 years and never will so paying the full cost to use it wouldn't be a problem. As for paying for other services I have no problem with my taxes going to pay for the services of others. I do have a problem when my property taxes may go up $50 or $100 per year just to pay for a streetcar that less that 10% of the population will use when we already provide a fairly good bus service that covers a much bigger area. Oh and don't say taxes won't go up that much. In Kitchener, according to the story in the Spec the cost of transit as a result of ION went up over $40 in just the first year. That was to cover ION's operating costs.

[TheRitsman]

I haven't used the HSR in 30 years and never will so paying the full cost to use it wouldn't be a problem. As for paying for other services I have no problem with my taxes going to pay for the services of others. I do have a problem when my property taxes may go up $50 or $100 per year just to pay for a streetcar that less that 10% of the population will use when we already provide a fairly good bus service that covers a much bigger area. Oh and don't say taxes won't go up that much. In Kitchener, according to the story in the Spec the cost of transit as a result of ION went up over $40 in just the first year. That was to cover ION's operating costs.

Two things:

1) Property taxes may increase in the short term, but will decrease in the longer term. As someone who will be alive in 2070 that's a benefit to myself and the community I live in.

2) The average property tax in Hamilton is $4271 per year, so a $40 increase in property taxes is 0.9% increase, in addition to point #1 that in future the effect on property taxes will be less significant and eventually go into the negative as time goes on.

Again, your argument that you don't want something because "less than 10% of the population use it, remains a flawed argument. Do you also not want your taxes to go toward individual roads that less than 10% of the population uses? What about hockey arenas? Sidewalks? Parks? Again, this is selfish view of investment into the community. I'd save thousands per year if I could avoid paying for things you feel are important and I do not, and yet, I am willing to pay for those things.

If we want to discuss how our council wastes money, great, but the reality is that LRT will be a net benefit for all of Hamilton, more jobs, more residences, more retail, and more transit options. Even if you drive, the economic benefits of having a strong core will likely benefit you and your neighbours, whether it's sports, clubs, bars, restaurants, job opportunities etc. The other reality we have to contend with is that Hamilton has a $3.3billion infrastructure deficit. The money going toward that alone would fix everything, but then Hamilton would fall behind again. LRT will be paying for 20% of the infrastructure deficit in the form of infrastructure upgrades from McMaster to Eastgate, and will increase property tax revenue so the city can catch up in the longer term. I expect property tax revenue to outstrip additional costs within 5-10 years from completion.

It's like how if you had the money to purchase a house outright, you wouldn't, assuming you had good investment sense. You'd mortgage at a low interest rate and invest in low MER ETFs at a higher return. Governments must think in the longer term like this because otherwise we are doomed to make the same short sighted decisions over and over.

Regardless, I suspect council will vote in favour, and in the longer term you will get to see the benefits, unless you remain ignorant to the economic and tax revenue benefits of large public investment with permanence that drives private investment.

[TheHonestMaple]

I haven't used the HSR in 30 years and never will so paying the full cost to use it wouldn't be a problem. As for paying for other services I have no problem with my taxes going to pay for the services of others. I do have a problem when my property taxes may go up $50 or $100 per year just to pay for a streetcar that less that 10% of the population will use when we already provide a fairly good bus service that covers a much bigger area. Oh and don't say taxes won't go up that much. In Kitchener, according to the story in the Spec the cost of transit as a result of ION went up over $40 in just the first year. That was to cover ION's operating costs.

I think you're missing the whole point of the LRT though. It isn't just for public transit, it will encourage development and overall growth to the city's economy. People will want to build condo towers, offices and other businesses along the line....that will, as a result, benefit the whole community.

This is not just about public transit - it is so much more.

[ShavedParmesanCheese]

Yes because the city centre, one of the country's top universities, 3 shopping malls, the football stadium, largest urban park, and the entire city centre isn't warranting of bolstered services.

Curious how people who haven't ridden the HSR since the county was amalgamated have an awful lot of opinions regarding it's efficiency...

[bigguy1231]

I think you're missing the whole point of the LRT though. It isn't just for public transit, it will encourage development and overall growth to the city's economy. People will want to build condo towers, offices and other businesses along the line....that will, as a result, benefit the whole community.

This is not just about public transit - it is so much more.

We are going to get massive development LRT or not. The city is set to grow for reasons other than an LRT. How many of the developments in the downtown were cancelled when the LRT was cancelled by the province. The answer is none.

[bigguy1231]

Yes because the city centre, one of the country's top universities, 3 shopping malls, the football stadium, largest urban park, and the entire city centre isn't warranting of bolstered services.

Curious how people who haven't ridden the HSR since the county was amalgamated have an awful lot of opinions regarding it's efficiency...

Nope , none of that warrants a 3.5 billion dollar expenditure. It is all being well served by the current buses.

[bigguy1231]

Two things:

1) Property taxes may increase in the short term, but will decrease in the longer term. As someone who will be alive in 2070 that's a benefit to myself and the community I live in.

2) The average property tax in Hamilton is $4271 per year, so a $40 increase in property taxes is 0.9% increase, in addition to point #1 that in future the effect on property taxes will be less significant and eventually go into the negative as time goes on.

Again, your argument that you don't want something because "less than 10% of the population use it, remains a flawed argument. Do you also not want your taxes to go toward individual roads that less than 10% of the population uses? What about hockey arenas? Sidewalks? Parks? Again, this is selfish view of investment into the community. I'd save thousands per year if I could avoid paying for things you feel are important and I do not, and yet, I am willing to pay for those things.

If we want to discuss how our council wastes money, great, but the reality is that LRT will be a net benefit for all of Hamilton, more jobs, more residences, more retail, and more transit options. Even if you drive, the economic benefits of having a strong core will likely benefit you and your neighbours, whether it's sports, clubs, bars, restaurants, job opportunities etc. The other reality we have to contend with is that Hamilton has a $3.3billion infrastructure deficit. The money going toward that alone would fix everything, but then Hamilton would fall behind again. LRT will be paying for 20% of the infrastructure deficit in the form of infrastructure upgrades from McMaster to Eastgate, and will increase property tax revenue so the city can catch up in the longer term. I expect property tax revenue to outstrip additional costs within 5-10 years from completion.

It's like how if you had the money to purchase a house outright, you wouldn't, assuming you had good investment sense. You'd mortgage at a low interest rate and invest in low MER ETFs at a higher return. Governments must think in the longer term like this because otherwise we are doomed to make the same short sighted decisions over and over.

Regardless, I suspect council will vote in favour, and in the longer term you will get to see the benefits, unless you remain ignorant to the economic and tax revenue benefits of large public investment with permanence that drives private investment.

You can argue all you want and it's not going to change my mind. I have heard these kinds of arguments for numerous things over the years and it always ends up costing the city way more that what we were told in the original estimates.

[TheHonestMaple]

We are going to get massive development LRT or not. The city is set to grow for reasons other than an LRT. How many of the developments in the downtown were cancelled when the LRT was cancelled by the province. The answer is none.

Looking at what happened to KW after the LRT was approved, I respectfully disagree. The system in that region has been nothing but a net benefit for the progress of that city.

And the reason no developments were cancelled is because they knew the LRT would happen sooner or later, the previous cancellation was nothing more than the provincial conservatives playing their cards right and forcing federal funding.

[ShavedParmesanCheese]

Nope , none of that warrants a 3.5 billion dollar expenditure. It is all being well served by the current buses.

You said it yourself, you have not ridden the HSR since I could take a VIA train to Calgary. You are not in a position to comment on or declare sufficiency of a network you do not use nor have a vested interest in. The HSR is certainly NOT well served and anybody relying on the 10 on a weekday can testify.

[TheHonestMaple]

Hamilton needs to look to other cities to understand the long-term benefits of LRT (https://www.thespec.com/opinion/contributors/2021/05/22/look-to-other-cities-to-understand-the-long-term-benefits-of-lrt.html)

[ScreamingViking]

There's a genuine lack of understanding of the bigger picture among many city residents (and beyond... we see lots of opinions submitted to news editorial pages from outside Hamilton too)

LRT direct benefits?
Yeah, they're mainly going to be in the corridor... but to say that it's currently "well served" by bus service is untrue. During peak hours there are still overcrowded buses and pass-bys, despite the efforts of the HSR. So this increase in capacity will improve that situation immensely (and for people who have to wait for 1, 2, or more buses to go by before being able to get on one, that means a faster trip).

Broader benefits?
For transit, there will be opportunities to improve the rest of the system; e.g., re-organizing some of the routes to link to the LRT such that fewer of them have to take meandering paths downtown. There will be opportunity to redeploy buses that currently run in the main east-west corridor to improve service on other routes throughout the city. There will surely be operational cost implications for that, but if people are serious about improving service across the whole city, it's a worthwhile expense.

Development potential seems to be the most quoted one, but only one side of that gets much mention (the "billions" in new builds and the property tax revenue associated with that). Suppose the city grasps this as an opportunity to really alter future development patterns? Reduce sprawl and increase density in neighbourhoods where it is very appropriate to do so, so that the forecast population growth doesn't largely happen on the urban fringe. There's not just a property tax revenue potential to that -- there's a service and infrastructure cost SAVINGS that can be had. And as we know, when the city extends outward, those costs don't grow at a linear rate, but at an exponential one... the farther out it goes, the more the associated costs grow.

Gotta think more globally here. Narrow-minded perspectives are what have led this city to make poor decisions in the past, and pass up opportunities that were handed to it. I think it would be a huge mistake to do that again.

[jamincan]

I think you're missing the whole point of the LRT though. It isn't just for public transit, it will encourage development and overall growth to the city's economy. People will want to build condo towers, offices and other businesses along the line....that will, as a result, benefit the whole community.

This is not just about public transit - it is so much more.

Also, when Waterloo Region looked at what it would cost in road expansion if they didn't build LRT, it far outstripped the cost of LRT.

[SteelTown]

Since the incredible $3.4 billion funding announcement by the Federal and Provincial governments for Hamilton LRT, there has been an outpouring of support from the community. Alongside a coalition of all major local institutions, hundreds of residents have written to local leadership, telling them to support this new funding plan. Let's keep up the momentum.

The last hurdle to overcome is Hamilton City Council, who will need to express support for the plan before it moves forward.

This coming Wednesday, June 2, representatives from Metrolinx and the Ontario Ministry of Transportation (MTO) are coming to Hamilton to make a presentation to City Councillors on the $3.4 billion funding package.

This is the next opportunity to show our support for LRT to decision-makers. If you haven't already, click here to tell City Council to support LRT:

http://hamiltonlightrail.ca/statements/new

Remember, your continued engagement makes a big impact. Federal Infrastructure Minister Catherine McKenna specifically mentioned grassroots support as a driving factor that led to this new plan. This is an "all-or-nothing" offer from the federal and provincial governments, designated for LRT only, so the time for delay is over.

This is a rapidly developing situation and we may have another update between now and next Wednesday, so stay tuned.

In the meantime, please stay safe and healthy.

[ShavedParmesanCheese]

Oh hey, I got that email as well. Things are coming somewhat to a head, I'll be watching that meeting closely.

[ScreamingViking]

This is the next opportunity to show our support for LRT to decision-makers. If you haven't already, click here to tell City Council to support LRT:

http://hamiltonlightrail.ca/statements/new


I can see "white heads" shaking now... mumbling stuff like gawd-damn activists

Added my two-cents to that site earlier today. :2cents::gkwillie:

[ScreamingViking]

Also, when Waterloo Region looked at what it would cost in road expansion if they didn't build LRT, it far outstripped the cost of LRT.

EXACTLY the point!

One that tends to get ignored, or rationalized, or just... ignored.

[craftbeerdad]

Further to Steeltown's mention of the meeting next week, here's an article from CBC

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/lrt-hamilton-1.6041169

Verster is actually coming to present in person. I can't believe we might blow this.

[ShavedParmesanCheese]

Let's not panic, yet. I suspect the Metrolinx delegation will make it painfully apparent that this money is for one thing and one thing only... like it wasn't clear already. The election is next year, and if some members of the council want even a chance to keep their cushy jobs, they'll have to go along with this.

[davidcappi]

There are a lot of Hamilton voters who would see rejecting the funding as a good thing. Regardless, there are lots of municipalities with shovel ready projects who would happily take the funding.

Hoping they actually support this - it's going to be a rough 5-7 years of construction but worth it in the end, though I do worry about a lot of the supporters being avidly against the kind of development LRT brings.

[TheHonestMaple]

https://twitter.com/JoeyColeman/status/1397699649536937987

[craftbeerdad]

Joey Coleman really adds a lot of value unlike city council. The least city council can do would be to offer something better than 90s dial-up streaming quality for this important meeting (and frankly all meetings).

[Innsertnamehere]

Metrolinx presentation underway now.

1/2 of the entirety HSR network ridership is apparently on the LRT line - shows why LRT makes sense.

The city is being asked to cover day to day operations, long term maintenance will be covered by Metrolinx. Operations estimated at $20m/year as a gross number - the overall additional cost burden would be lower as that would be net of fare revenue and savings from not operating buses on the line. The city is the one that has to do the math to figure out what the net number will be though. I imagine once fare revenue is accounted for and the fact that the HSR will have to run significantly fewer buses the overall net cost over today will amount to only a few million a year at most.

[craftbeerdad]

here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Lc1i9V9NSE

Also another article from yesterday - Pro-LRT Hamilton residents will consider paying more taxes for it: labourers' union
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/lrt-liuna-1.6047083

[jonny24]

What a dumbass Ferguson. "How will people drive home to Ancaster with the LRT in the way?"

Not that the LRT is an impassible wall, but Jesus Christ, use your existing urban highways/arteries and take Linc+James.

Now Partridge making it seem like it's shady that the LRT won't cover enhanced infrastructure that would have been the city's responsibility anyway.

[TheHonestMaple]

Listening to the webcast now. It is extremely clear that most of the city councillors, especially those outside of the core (Ferguson and Partridge comes to mind) have absolutely zero clue about how these projects get built. A complete lack of engineering and construction knowledge. It's embarrassing listening to Patridge try to poke holes in the project.

[Innsertnamehere]

Listening to the webcast now. It is extremely clear that most of the city councillors, especially those outside of the core (Ferguson and Partridge comes to mind) have absolutely zero clue about how these projects get built. A complete lack of engineering and construction knowledge. It's embarrassing listening to Patridge try to poke holes in the project.

She's riling on that the costs of any infrastructure upgrades the city opts to do are not paid for by Metrolinx. Like - if the city wants upgrades they obviously pay for it, and Metrolinx doesn't know what they want. The additional marginal cost of laying a slightly larger pipe to accommodate higher capacities is likely marginal anyway as Metrolinx is paying for the like-for-like replacement already.

If council is worried about that they can opt for no upgrades. Any costs that are incurred for this would likely be covered by development charges anyway and would not come out of general tax revenues.

[craftbeerdad]

Trying to work and watch this the same time, but wow, talk about clueless individuals.

Thank goodness Phil Verster just pointed out the infrastructure benefits, residential/commercial development, housing appreciation, etc around North American examples of LRT.

[craftbeerdad]

Break - resumes at 12:45pm

Still a host of councilors to come, plus the mayor and the "I need to be heard councilors" coming back for round 2 of find the holes.

[ScreamingViking]

Trying to work and watch this the same time, but wow, talk about clueless individuals.

Thank goodness Phil Verster just pointed out the infrastructure benefits, residential/commercial development, housing appreciation, etc around North American examples of LRT.

Or they're being willfully daft on purpose, because they cannot look at this and ask questions with open minds or they'll risk alienating the folks that vote them back on to council.

And as for examples from other cities, they're not Hamilton. We're different, dontcha know. :koko: ;)

[bigguy1231]

Listening to the webcast now. It is extremely clear that most of the city councillors, especially those outside of the core (Ferguson and Partridge comes to mind) have absolutely zero clue about how these projects get built. A complete lack of engineering and construction knowledge. It's embarrassing listening to Patridge try to poke holes in the project.

You do realize that Ferguson was the General Manager of Dufferin Construction for over 25 years. He has more construction experience than the people building the LRT. Here's a link to his Linkedin biography and achievements in construction.

https://ca.linkedin.com/in/lloyd-ferguson-77542044

[TheHonestMaple]

You do realize that Ferguson was the General Manager of Dufferin Construction for over 25 years. He has more construction experience than the people building the LRT. Here's a link to his Linkedin biography and achievements in construction.

https://ca.linkedin.com/in/lloyd-ferguson-77542044

I'm aware, he made reference to it several times today.

[Innsertnamehere]

You do realize that Ferguson was the General Manager of Dufferin Construction for over 25 years. He has more construction experience than the people building the LRT. Here's a link to his Linkedin biography and achievements in construction.

https://ca.linkedin.com/in/lloyd-ferguson-77542044

And he hasn't worked in the industry for 15 years now. He's not going to have a current understanding of the industry, especially related to how P3 contracts work as they basically didn't exist in 2006 when he last worked at Dufferin.

[ShavedParmesanCheese]

You do realize that Ferguson was the General Manager of Dufferin Construction for over 25 years. He has more construction experience than the people building the LRT. Here's a link to his Linkedin biography and achievements in construction.

https://ca.linkedin.com/in/lloyd-ferguson-77542044

And how many rapid transport projects of this nature has he been in charge of building?

[ScreamingViking]

You do realize that Ferguson was the General Manager of Dufferin Construction for over 25 years. He has more construction experience than the people building the LRT. Here's a link to his Linkedin biography and achievements in construction.

https://ca.linkedin.com/in/lloyd-ferguson-77542044

So he should know better when coming up with his questions.

[craftbeerdad]

Do people on council understand how math works? Maybe some people need to pass a general test across subjects before being able to take office.

[SteelTown]

Have they mentioned about any possible cost overrun and who would be responsible?

I know with the $1 billion cheque, Queen's Park would be responsible to cost overrun.

[Innsertnamehere]

Have they mentioned about any possible cost overrun and who would be responsible?

I know with the $1 billion cheque, Queen's Park would be responsible to cost overrun.

That's the same here. Province is responsible for literally all costs but operating the LRT - and even that the City gets to keep fairbox revenue to pay for.

It's about the best possible deal imaginable for the city. Not only does it not have to pay a dime for construction, maitenence is covered for the asset over it's lifetime by the province as well. The tracks will be replaced on Metrolinx dime, not the City's, LRVs replaced by the province, etc.

It's basically a massive free piece of infrastructure for the city with no real strings attached. The province is even going to pay for the expensive work of cleaning up all the ancient utilities along King St for free. The amount of resistance the project is facing is nothing short of stupifying.

[ScreamingViking]

From an updated Spec article:
https://www.thespec.com/news/hamilton-region/2021/06/02/hamilton-lrt-metrolinx-latest-news.html

Highlights of the updated provincial plan so far:

- Ontario wants a council commitment — or not — on LRT as soon as possible and by the end of this summer “at the latest,” said Nowlan. That would allow “early works” like utility relocation along the Main-King-Queenston corridor to begin early next year.

- Hamilton is being asked to take responsibility for operating and maintenance costs, which the province now estimates at $20 million a year in 2019 dollars. That number will shrink once fare revenue on Hamilton’s busiest transit corridor is factored in, as well as any savings from HSR buses removed from the line.

- A private company could be contracted to run the line, but Metrolinx is “willing to have a conversation” about the prospect of a HSR-run line, instead.

- The province is taking responsibility for any construction cost overruns, Nowlan confirmed.

- Metrolinx is planning to split construction into several stages and contracts, rather than the one, enormous design-build-finance-operate-maintain project bidding process used for Hamilton’s original cancelled LRT. That would allow work to begin faster, but could stretch the construction timeline.

- Former city LRT head, Kris Jacobson, is now working for Metrolinx and will help co-ordinate the proposed new project partnership between Hamilton and the provincial transit agency.

[ScreamingViking]

It's about the best possible deal imaginable for the city.

So it MUST come with hidden catches. :rolleyes:

Stupifying indeed. Hopefully the city's transit and finance people provide more clarity with full estimates that include fare revenue, savings (or costs) for various options about what to do with buses that currently run in the corridor, some tax base and city services cost scenarios depending how corridor development happens and sprawl is limited, and some antacid for Lloyd's tummy.

[jonny24]

Now asking if we still get further off-ramps :brickwall:

[ScreamingViking]

Have they mentioned much regarding estimated replacement costs for other infrastructure along the line, and how that will save the city money in its future capital budgets?

Rebuilding the Longwood Rd. bridge over the 403 alone would be a huge savings for the city, and it's not something that can be put off for a lot longer.

[StEC]

That's the same here. Province is responsible for literally all costs but operating the LRT - and even that the City gets to keep fairbox revenue to pay for.

It's about the best possible deal imaginable for the city. Not only does it not have to pay a dime for construction, maitenence is covered for the asset over it's lifetime by the province as well. The tracks will be replaced on Metrolinx dime, not the City's, LRVs replaced by the province, etc.

It's basically a massive free piece of infrastructure for the city with no real strings attached. The province is even going to pay for the expensive work of cleaning up all the ancient utilities along King St for free. The amount of resistance the project is facing is nothing short of stupifying.

It seriously doesn't get any better, this is the city's one shot at stepping into the future and prospering and yet we have some on council that refuse to see it!

[TheHonestMaple]

It seriously doesn't get any better, this is the city's one shot at stepping into the future and prospering and yet we have some on council that refuse to see it!

They see it, they're just trying to insure that they get elected in the wards again. It's sad to see such selfish behaviour.

[jonny24]

"What changed from over ago to now? Why do they want to spend more money now"

Gee, what's been different over the past year?

[StEC]

OMG Tom Jackson needs to fuck off....

[TheHonestMaple]

Probably the strongest point made today.... "If Hamilton turns down this funding that money will still be spent, just not in Hamilton. Toronto will take the money and build more subways and LRTs in that city, and Hamiltonians will pay for it."

Just approve the damn thing, and bring this city into the 21st century.

[StEC]

Probably the strongest point made today.... "If Hamilton turns down this funding that money will still be spent, just not in Hamilton. Toronto will take the money and build more subways and LRTs in that city, and Hamiltonians will pay for it."

Just approve the damn thing, and bring this city into the 21st century.

100%.... our loss will be another cities gain if they vote this down and it would also signal to the world that Hamilton is a dysfunctional city not to do business or invest in!

[TheHonestMaple]

Big flip with Merulla. Didn't expect that.

[StEC]

Big flip with Merulla. Didn't expect that.

I just stood up and applauded him lol :cheers:

[SteelTown]

A motion to defer any decision is moved to June 16th GIC meeting passed. Two more weeks to gather more information, mostly financial information.