Atlantic Canada airport thread

[magee_b]

Pascan flights from YSJ to/from YHU & YHZ appear to drop down from 5x week (Monday to Friday) to 3 days a week (M/W/F) starting in January. Was doing some research for upcoming travel and the reduced frequency made using them a no-go.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by magee_b

Pascan flights from YSJ to/from YHU & YHZ appear to drop down from 5x week (Monday to Friday) to 3 days a week (M/W/F) starting in January. Was doing some research for upcoming travel and the reduced frequency made using them a no-go.

That's unfortunate. As frequency falls fewer people will even consider them as an option.

[dhottawa729]

Originally Posted by sailor734

That's unfortunate. As frequency falls fewer people will even consider them as an option.

I suspect that it has to do with delays to the Montreal MET opening, but at the same time, with Halifax getting so many more big routes, the demand for connections to Halifax should be stronger than ever! Or maybe, with the new incoming CEO, he will know what to say to get more frequency for air canada into YSJ. There is only a finite customer base afterall. I’d like to see Pascan build a maintenance hanger at YSJ, drop the YHU route and reassign those aircraft to more frequent connections to Halifax, all while AC increasing their number of daily flights to Montreal Trudeau. Once Porter is fully established at Montreal MET, then frequent Pascan hops to there would be great.

[homebody]

Originally Posted by magee_b

Pascan flights from YSJ to/from YHU & YHZ appear to drop down from 5x week (Monday to Friday) to 3 days a week (M/W/F) starting in January. Was doing some research for upcoming travel and the reduced frequency made using them a no-go.

Just 3x weekly for 3 months then back to 5x in April.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by dhottawa729

I suspect that it has to do with delays to the Montreal MET opening, but at the same time, with Halifax getting so many more big routes, the demand for connections to Halifax should be stronger than ever! Or maybe, with the new incoming CEO, he will know what to say to get more frequency for air canada into YSJ. There is only a finite customer base afterall. I’d like to see Pascan build a maintenance hanger at YSJ, drop the YHU route and reassign those aircraft to more frequent connections to Halifax, all while AC increasing their number of daily flights to Montreal Trudeau. Once Porter is fully established at Montreal MET, then frequent Pascan hops to there would be great.

Those connections through Halifax could be a huge opportunity for YSJ. The current situation is quite unfortunate. Air Canada customers in the Saint John region looking to travel to Europe can't connect through Halifax without going through Toronto or Montreal first.

Air Canada has 7 daily flights between Toronto and Halifax... they could quite easily modify the route of one of those daily flights to make it a YYT<->YSJ<->YHZ instead. The Saint John stop would add an extra 8km to the route between Toronto and Halifax, and there would be opportunities for Air Canada to sell some seats on this three city route, twice. Same with Montreal, of those daily flights could be turned into a YUL<->YSJ<->YHZ route and would only add 2km to the route between Montreal and Halifax.



The St. John's airport has also seen a lot of improvements recently, and it too has enormous potential for transatlantic routes, like Halifax. I guess there's only two daily Air Canada flights between Toronto and St. John's, and one daily Air Canada flight between Montreal and St. Johns.

Saint John and St. John's both need at least one more daily Air Canada flight to Montreal and Toronto. Moncton and Fredericton could also benefit from being included in such three city routes between Atlantic and Central Canada.

A stopover at YSJ between YYZ and YYT would add 17km to the route, while a stopover at YQM between Montreal and St. John's would only add 8km to a route between YUL and YYT. (+32 km via YSJ)

Adding five new daily Air Canada flights (YYZ, YUL, YYT and x2 YHZ) would be transformational for the Saint John Airport, and an absolute game changer for those looking to travel to Europe via Halifax and St. John's.

[someone123]

Nobody would want to take the flight stopping in SJ to go from Toronto to Halifax though. It would add a lot of travel time and there are so many direct options.

Saint John to Halifax is unfortunate in being a bit of an awkward driving distance and maybe just slightly too small a market. Sydney-Halifax is similar. If you added 100k people to either city or moved them 2 hours farther away there probably would be regular flights.

Eventually, Moncton-Halifax should have more regular train service with a stop at YHZ.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by someone123

Nobody would want to take the flight stopping in SJ to go from Toronto to Halifax though. It would add a lot of travel time and there are so many direct options.

Saint John to Halifax is unfortunate in being a bit of an awkward driving distance and maybe just slightly too small a market. Sydney-Halifax is similar. If you added 100k people to either city or moved them 2 hours farther away there probably would be regular flights.

Eventually, Moncton-Halifax should have more regular train service with a stop at YHZ.

How much time do you think it would add? From what I understand, there are 7 daily Air Canada flights between Halifax and Toronto.

So this three city route via Saint John would be just one option among many to get between Toronto and Halifax. Plus, there's gotta be some people who only need to get between Halifax and Saint John, or Toronto and Saint John, right?

If it was the cheapest option, I'm sure many people in Halifax, Toronto, and Montreal would book the route through Saint John to save money.

I'd imagine people in St. John's would welcome this route too, as I guess they only have one daily Air Canada flight to Toronto at the moment, which seems absurd.

As for the train service, it would be nice, but I think a more regular bus service is a far more realistic, reliable, and attainable goal.

[Mattyyy]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

How much time do you think it would add? From what I understand, there are 7 daily Air Canada flights between Halifax and Toronto.

So this three city route via Saint John would be just one option among many to get between Toronto and Halifax. Plus, there's gotta be some people who only need to get between Halifax and Saint John, or Toronto and Saint John, right?

If it was the cheapest option, I'm sure many people in Halifax, Toronto, and Montreal would book the route through Saint John to save money.

I'd imagine people in St. John's would welcome this route too, as I guess they only have one daily Air Canada flight to Toronto at the moment, which seems absurd.

As for the train service, it would be nice, but I think a more regular bus service is a far more realistic, reliable, and attainable goal.

At the end of the day airlines are a private business and are not going to do routes that are not profitable. It's all very simple - if there was more demand for Saint John flights there would be more flights. Unfortunately that is not the case.

Why would Air Canada not throw Saint John in as a stop on a Toronto - Halifax flight? Also simple. If I'm flying from Toronto to Halifax and I have 7 options and one of these happen to add one hour plus there is no way I'm taking it. In fact, I would pay a lot more to not have to take it.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by Mattyyy

At the end of the day airlines are a private business and are not going to do routes that are not profitable. It's all very simple - if there was more demand for Saint John flights there would be more flights. Unfortunately that is not the case.

Why would Air Canada not throw Saint John in as a stop on a Toronto - Halifax flight? Also simple. If I'm flying from Toronto to Halifax and I have 7 options and one of these happen to add one hour plus there is no way I'm taking it. In fact, I would pay a lot more to not have to take it.

Are you so sure it would add an hour or more to the travel time between Toronto and Halifax? Like what are you basing that on? They’d have to get some people and luggage off the plane, and get some other people on the plane, but I’m not convinced that would have to take an hour or more.

Moreover, while you might pay a lot more to not have to take a route connecting via Saint John, a lot of other people would take that route if it meant a significant savings or was even $20-40 cheaper lol… not everyone has a business expense account or whatever.

Finally, I don’t buy that these type of routes couldn’t be profitable, they just haven’t tried them in a long, long time via YSJ. I don’t think it’s nearly as simple as you’re presenting it.

Personally, I think it’s a shame that Air Canada was ever privatized, and that it no longer has the same obligations to service smaller centres. However “, there’s still a lot of room for government subsidies and programs to coax Air Canada and other airlines to service smaller centres, including YSJ.

Even without subsidies or a government program like the one that was announced earlier this year for Atlantic Canadian Airports (excluding Saint John and St. John’s) I think these proposed three city routes would be profitable for Air Canada.

Nonetheless, there’s a case for government to subsidize a few of these routes that I’ve proposed above… and perhaps the YYZ<->YSJ<->YYT route has the strongest case for subsidy.

[DyAm00394]

Public open house on December 16th.

[gtsoc]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Are you so sure it would add an hour or more to the travel time between Toronto and Halifax? Like what are you basing that on? They’d have to get some people and luggage off the plane, and get some other people on the plane, but I’m not convinced that would have to take an hour or more.

An hour sounds about right.

I used to fly YSJ - YHZ - YWG with a stopover in Ottawa (not getting off the plane). A few people got off, a few more got on ... luggage off and on and going through the entire safety briefing again and it was usually 1hr30min from touchdown to wheels up.

[miniborder]

EnvisionSaintJohn, you've clearly got some unbridled enthusiasm for your home airport but respectfully some of your recent suggestions are nonsensical and borderline delusional. YSJ is nothing more than a regional outstation for AC.

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

The Saint John stop would add an extra 8km to the route between Toronto and Halifax, and there would be opportunities for Air Canada to sell some seats on this three city route, twice.
Same with Montreal, of those daily flights could be turned into a YUL<->YSJ<->YHZ route and would only add 2km to the route between Montreal and Halifax.
A stopover at YSJ between YYZ and YYT would add 17km to the route, while a stopover at YQM between Montreal and St. John's would only add 8km to a route between YUL and YYT. (+32 km via YSJ)

You're drawing these up like you're in your car, detouring a few blocks away to hit up a drive through fast food joint or a gas station for a 5 cent fuel discount. Aircraft utilization doesn't work this way - airlines (especially massive legacy airlines like AC) are intensely focused on optimizing their block hours, downtime, ground handling costs, maintenance cycles, crew schedules/availability etc. Stopovers add lots of incremental costs that the airline needs to justify and I am VERY confident in saying it's not justified for YSJ.

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Air Canada customers in the Saint John region looking to travel to Europe can't connect through Halifax without going through Toronto or Montreal first.

It might be inconvenient for you, but that is EXACTLY what AC wants their customers in regional outstations like YSJ to do - connect through their major hubs. I'll even go out on a limb and say that "customers in the Saint John region looking to travel to Europe" aren't high on AC's priority list.

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

So this three city route via Saint John would be just one option among many to get between Toronto and Halifax. Plus, there's gotta be some people who only need to get between Halifax and Saint John, or Toronto and Saint John, right? If it was the cheapest option, I'm sure many people in Halifax, Toronto, and Montreal would book the route through Saint John to save money.

Why in the world would AC bring an unproven, unprofitable three city route to market, then turn around to make it the "cheapest option"? That's not how Revenue Management works.

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Finally, I don’t buy that these type of routes couldn’t be profitable, they just haven’t tried them in a long, long time via YSJ. I don’t think it’s nearly as simple as you’re presenting it.

Airlines have a lot more data and a lot smaller profit margins than the layperson would ever understand. It's even simpler than you could ever imagine: YSJ is not a profitable proposition for AC. Time will tell whether Pascan, PAL, or another regional can make it work (due to lower wage costs/CASM), but YSJ is not the type of market that our flag carrier should be overextending themselves on.

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Personally, I think it’s a shame that Air Canada was ever privatized, and that it no longer has the same obligations to service smaller centres. However “, there’s still a lot of room for government subsidies and programs to coax Air Canada and other airlines to service smaller centres, including YSJ.

Unfortunately the cat can't be put back in the bag. And with the way things are going, YSJ is probably closer to becoming the next YYB than it is is the regional powerhouse that you think it could be.

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

I wonder how much time and money would it cost Air Canada to pick up some passengers in Saint John on the way to Lisbon from Toronto, and how many of the seats along such a route could be sold to more than 1 passenger. Just a thought.

This one takes the cake as one of the craziest things I've read on the internet recently. And the internet is a pretty wild place.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by gtsoc

An hour sounds about right.

I used to fly YSJ - YHZ - YWG with a stopover in Ottawa (not getting off the plane). A few people got off, a few more got one ... luggage off and on and going through the entire safety briefing again and it was usually 1hr30min from touchdown to wheels up.

I haven’t been on such a route since I was a kid, but if an hour sounds about right, then it also sounds like hardly a big deal too, right?

I don’t buy the “no one” would fly this route argument, or believe that many people would pay a lot more (out of their own pockets that is) to avoid flying this route.

Since the new YSJ CEO has a lot of connections with Air Canada, maybe, just maybe, we will see a few of these three city routes become a reality for YSJ.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by miniborder

EnvisionSaintJohn, you've clearly got some unbridled enthusiasm for your home airport but respectfully some of your recent suggestions are nonsensical and borderline delusional. YSJ is nothing more than a regional outstation for AC.


You're drawing these up like you're in your car, detouring a few blocks away to hit up a drive through fast food joint or a gas station for a 5 cent fuel discount. Aircraft utilization doesn't work this way - airlines (especially massive legacy airlines like AC) are intensely focused on optimizing their block hours, downtime, ground handling costs, maintenance cycles, crew schedules/availability etc. Stopovers add lots of incremental costs that the airline needs to justify and I am VERY confident in saying it's not justified for YSJ.


It might be inconvenient for you, but that is EXACTLY what AC wants their customers in regional outstations like YSJ to do - connect through their major hubs. I'll even go out on a limb and say that "customers in the Saint John region looking to travel to Europe" aren't high on AC's priority list.


Why in the world would AC bring an unproven, unprofitable three city route to market, then turn around to make it the "cheapest option"? That's not how Revenue Management works.


Airlines have a lot more data and a lot smaller profit margins than the layperson would ever understand. It's even simpler than you could ever imagine: YSJ is not a profitable proposition for AC. Time will tell whether Pascan, PAL, or another regional can make it work (due to lower wage costs/CASM), but YSJ is not the type of market that our flag carrier should be overextending themselves on.


Unfortunately the cat can't be put back in the bag. And with the way things are going, YSJ is probably closer to becoming the next YYB than it is is the regional powerhouse that you think it could be.


This one takes the cake as one of the craziest things I've read on the internet recently. And the internet is a pretty wild place.

I just want to see better flight options for my city. There’s no need to insult me or the Saint John Airport. Like is the Toronto<Saint John>St. John’s proposed route really that crazy? I’d say Saint John and St. John’s each only having a single daily flight to Toronto is a lot crazier!

Also, I don’t expect YSJ to be a regional powerhouse… like did I say that once? I’m not that delusional.

As for AC justifying the cost of the stopovers… those costs could be addressed via subsidies. If government stepped up and subsidized routes between Fredericton, Moncton, Charlottetown, Halifax, and Sydney, it could also step up and subsidize a few three city routes through YSJ. Though, you’ve hardly presented a convincing argument that these routes would be unprofitable… you’ve just stated your opinion and not backed it up with any evidence.


If the US can properly service smaller regional centres through governmental policy Canada should follow their lead. Moreover, here in the maritimes, we should have a much more affordable and convenient bus system. Taking a bus to Halifax from Saint John to catch a flight at YHZ should be a viable, affordable solution.

[someone123]

I'd just say that a Toronto-SJ-Halifax route is basically a Toronto-SJ and a SJ-Halifax flight. The stopover time would be about as long as each leg of the flight as mentioned and there are lots of nonstop alternatives, so it would not be a viable option for Toronto-Halifax. Hence it comes down to the demand out of SJ, which is comparatively low because it's a smaller city and not a hub for a large area (due to Fredericton, Moncton, and the US border).

It's not about insults or trying to build up or tear down different airports or cities rhetorically, it's just the economics of the routes.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by someone123

I'd just say that a Toronto-SJ-Halifax route is basically a Toronto-SJ and a SJ-Halifax flight. The stopover time would be about as long as each leg of the flight as mentioned and there are lots of nonstop alternatives, so it would not be a viable option for Toronto-Halifax. Hence it comes down to the demand out of SJ, which is comparatively low because it's a smaller city and not a hub for a large area (due to Fredericton, Moncton, and the US border).

It's not about insults or trying to build up or tear down different airports or cities rhetorically, it's just the economics of the routes.

Well, I’ll have to respectfully disagree, as when there’s already 7 daily flights between Toronto and Halifax from AC, a Toronto<->Saint John<->Halifax could be a viable route, and actually enhance YHZ’s offerings.

Moreover, Toronto<->Saint John<->St. John’s could be a viable route, perhaps even more viable, considering the two legs of the route would be essentially the same length. Or do you consider this route non viable as well?

[miniborder]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

I just want to see better flight options for my city. There’s no need to insult me or the Saint John Airport. Like is the Toronto<Saint John>St. John’s proposed route really that crazy? I’d say Saint John and St. John’s each only having a single daily flight to Toronto is a lot crazier!

It's absolutely nothing personal to you, your city or your airport. I'm just trying to tell you that yes, YYZ-YSJ-YYT is really that crazy. And that YSJ and YYT both currently have the frequencies that match the YYZ demand, full stop.

I want to see better flight options for my airport as well. But I'm not here posting about YHZ-DEN, YHZ-LAX, YHZ-DXB, YHZ-NRT because it's simply not realistic or commercially viable.

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

As for AC justifying the cost of the stopovers… those costs could be addressed via subsidies. If government stepped up and subsidized routes between Fredericton, Moncton, Charlottetown, Halifax, and Sydney, it could also step up and subsidize a few three city routes through YSJ. If the US can properly service smaller regional centres through governmental policy Canada should follow their lead.

Without diving too much into the politics of things, I didn't know it was "cool" to be following the US's lead again. I've purposely not addressed your comments on subsidies to this point, and will probably just leave you with good wishes as you engage with your publicly elected officials related to that.

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Though, you’ve hardly presented a convincing argument that these routes would be unprofitable… you’ve just stated your opinion and not backed it up with any evidence.

We are strangers on an anonymous forum after all, so you don't have to listen or believe me - that's totally within your right. Let's just say there's a lot of topics in this world where I probably talk out of my ass, but I'm pretty confident based on my work history and connections I know what I'm taking about in this realm!

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Moreover, here in the maritimes, we should have a much more affordable and convenient bus system. Taking a bus to Halifax from Saint John to catch a flight at YHZ should be a viable, affordable solution.

Now this is much more realistic and something that we can agree on! Something like the interline bus setup they have with YYZ - YHM/YGK/YKF could work wonders in the Maritimes if implemented correctly.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Well, going to have to agree to disagree that Air Canada’s flight options for YSJ fit demand, when we used to have more flights available when the population was smaller and declining.

I don’t think the YYZ<->YSJ<->YYT route would be crazy at all, and think it’s pretty flippant for you to compare YSJ or YYT getting those routes to Halifax getting direct flights to Los Angeles and Tokyo lol…😅

As for subsides and the US having good flight connections to smaller centres, that’s got nothing to do with the current administration or recent tensions between our two countries, it’s been the case for decades now. Canada is a very large country with regional disparities and we could do a lot more to bridge the divide between and within regions by better funding routes to smaller centres.

At least we agree there’s a distinct need for better bus service across the maritimes. I wouldn’t mind flying out of Halifax if it was actually convenient and affordable…asking relatives or friends to drive 3.5 hours to Halifax is a bit much.

I’d much rather take a bus to Halifax for a transatlantic flight than connect via Toronto or Montreal with a multi hour layover.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Moreover, Toronto<->Saint John<->St. John’s could be a viable route, perhaps even more viable, considering the two legs of the route would be essentially the same length. Or do you consider this route non viable as well?

It has the same problem, plentiful demand between St. John's and Toronto and regular flights. The people who want to go between those two cities won't want to stop in Saint John (1-2 hour delay). So really those flights would be for people going to/from Saint John only.

I don't know if the demand is there or if they are viable but generally airlines will highly optimize the services. If there were a lot of demand out of Saint John they wouldn't want to lose that revenue.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by someone123

It has the same problem, plentiful demand between St. John's and Toronto and regular flights. The people who want to go between those two cities won't want to stop in Saint John (1-2 hour delay). So really those flights would be for people going to/from Saint John only.

I don't know if the demand is there or if they are viable but generally airlines will highly optimize the services. If there were a lot of demand out of Saint John they wouldn't want to lose that revenue.

Is there not only one non stop AC flight between St. John’s and Toronto at the moment?

I think people would take what they could get in terms of better flight options. I hardly see how connecting through Saint John would be upwards of a 2 hour delay. Ideally, it would be less than an hour added onto the trip.