Atlantic Canada airport thread

[cliff2121]

These type of milk runs have been tried before in Atlantic Canada and weren't very popular.

From my memory :

YYT-YQM-YYZ Canjet
YHZ-YSJ-YOW Canjet
YQM-YUL-YYZ Westjet
YYZ-YFC-YSJ Jetsgo and AC Tango

I even remember an Air Nova YHZ-YSJ-EWR flight in the early 90s, but it didn't last very long! As others have said, there are many reasons why these types of routes just don't work.

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Those connections through Halifax could be a huge opportunity for YSJ. The current situation is quite unfortunate. Air Canada customers in the Saint John region looking to travel to Europe can't connect through Halifax without going through Toronto or Montreal first.

Air Canada has 7 daily flights between Toronto and Halifax... they could quite easily modify the route of one of those daily flights to make it a YYT<->YSJ<->YHZ instead. The Saint John stop would add an extra 8km to the route between Toronto and Halifax, and there would be opportunities for Air Canada to sell some seats on this three city route, twice. Same with Montreal, of those daily flights could be turned into a YUL<->YSJ<->YHZ route and would only add 2km to the route between Montreal and Halifax.



The St. John's airport has also seen a lot of improvements recently, and it too has enormous potential for transatlantic routes, like Halifax. I guess there's only two daily Air Canada flights between Toronto and St. John's, and one daily Air Canada flight between Montreal and St. Johns.

Saint John and St. John's both need at least one more daily Air Canada flight to Montreal and Toronto. Moncton and Fredericton could also benefit from being included in such three city routes between Atlantic and Central Canada.

A stopover at YSJ between YYZ and YYT would add 17km to the route, while a stopover at YQM between Montreal and St. John's would only add 8km to a route between YUL and YYT. (+32 km via YSJ)

Adding five new daily Air Canada flights (YYZ, YUL, YYT and x2 YHZ) would be transformational for the Saint John Airport, and an absolute game changer for those looking to travel to Europe via Halifax and St. John's.

There's 4x daily YYT-YYZ and 2x daily YYT-YUL AC flights.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by DyAm00394

Public open house on December 16th.

Perhaps extending the run ways should be one of the top things considered in terms of “land uses” for YSJ?

The short length of YSJ’s runways is a limiting factor for the airport, and lengthening the runways could help it achieve the new CEO’s goal to get more flights in and out of Saint John. Clearly something major has to change if YSJ ever wants to be more than a “regional outstation for Air Canada”, as our industry insider from Halifax has so kindly put it.

I still believe a combined Fredericton/Saint John airport is the single best aviation option available for both Fredericton and Saint John (especially based on comments about lack of population made on the previous page). However, that airport is not going to be built or designed anytime soon, so for now, the focus must be on improving YSJ, and improving the situation for customers in the Saint John Region.

Another land use question that should be considered is some sort of bus depot. As much as airports might not want to embrace busses, let alone bus depots at their own airports that take their local customers to their competitors airports… a robust, convenient, and affordable bus system between the airports of the maritimes could be the closest we get to any sort of “airport sharing” between our cities. Moreover, a well funded bus system connecting the airports of the maritimes would allow some airports to fill some niches that are currently not served. If done right, a well funded bus system could actually help the airports of the maritimes, and help them attract customers from outside their region, even YSJ.

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by someone123

I'd just say that a Toronto-SJ-Halifax route is basically a Toronto-SJ and a SJ-Halifax flight. The stopover time would be about as long as each leg of the flight as mentioned and there are lots of nonstop alternatives, so it would not be a viable option for Toronto-Halifax. Hence it comes down to the demand out of SJ, which is comparatively low because it's a smaller city and not a hub for a large area (due to Fredericton, Moncton, and the US border).

It's not about insults or trying to build up or tear down different airports or cities rhetorically, it's just the economics of the routes.

AC did run YYT-YHZ-YYZ flights (believe 2x daily) until the early 2000's IIRC. As others have commented, they were basically two separate flights as very few passengers were flying YYT-YYZ through YHZ. They would use the YYT-YYZ non stop flights.

In the late 90's, I did the YYZ-YHZ-YYT flight from YYZ to YYT going home for Christmas. AC ran a 767 on that flight during the Christmas season. It was rare to take a widebody between YHZ-YYT; not withstanding AC 860/861 YHZ-YYT-LHR/LHR-YYT-YHZ flights which operated during that time on a 767.

A YYT-YHZ-YYZ route could be viable; no way YYT-YSJ-YYZ would work as there's not much traffic between YYT-YSJ.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

A YYT-YHZ-YYZ route could be viable; no way YYT-YSJ-YYZ would work as there's not much traffic between YYT-YSJ.

Perhaps that’s because there is zero daily flints between YSJ and YYT? lol.

It’s pretty hard to have any traffic between the two cities when there’s no direct flight. There’s only 5 weekly flights to Halifax from Saint John, while there’s 5 daily flights between Halifax and St. John’s?

Hard to say something isn’t viable when it’s never even been attempted.

Originally Posted by Ozabald

There's 4x daily YYT-YYZ and 2x daily YYT-YUL AC flights.

I googled it last night on my computer and it told me there was only one daily AC flight between Toronto and St. John’s, but perhaps it was confused and thought I meant Saint John?

I searched again now on my phone and this is what came up:

Air Canada typically offers 2 daily direct flights between Toronto (YYZ) and St. John's (YYT).

But I’ll take your word for it… I thought only one daily flight seemed way too low for St. John’s. 4 seems like the proper number. Google AI and even the mighty Chat GPT seem to spit out a lot of inaccurate information… I should have went further and verified. My first Google search result told me Halifax had 17 daily AC flights to Toronto, which sounded false, and was false.

Based on these more accurate numbers (and a look at the Halifax Stanfield Website)

https://halifaxstanfield.ca/flights/non-stop/


Seems like there’s quite a lot of room for growth for routes between Halifax and NB airports. There’s 5 daily flights to St. John’s according to the YHZ website, and only 5 weekly flights to Saint John.


I remain highly skeptical of the claims made in this thread that tri-city routes won’t work, won’t be profitable, or that no one will want to take them.

The airline industry is very poorly regulated and one of the most anti consumer industries in Canada, especially for Canadians in smaller centres, and things need to change. I’m glad YSJ hired a new CEO with extensive experience in the airline industry that wants to change this situation and find new ways to grow the customer base and increase air traffic in and out of the airport.

I remain optimistic that we will see more flights in and out of YSJ, despite the many naysayers here online.

[someone123]

To be clear I'm not saying A -> B -> C routing can't make sense operationally. Just that "might as well add SJ as a stop for some people while a bunch of others will take the flight for YYZ <-> YHZ" doesn't make a lot of sense for the reasons mentioned. Adding a stop on a flight is costly in time and money, these flights are so short that the stop time is large relative to the flight itself, and there are plentiful direct alternatives. That's before you even get to talking about demand for SJ specifically.

I do think it's fair to say that Saint John is a bit screwed over by geography and politics, through no fault of its own:
- US border nearby, tall order to get Americans to fly via SJ
- Fredericton is the capital and is close by so there's a tendency to put an airport there too
- Moncton is a hub and now largest in NB, so it also tends to attract flights

It's like the situation in some corners of Ontario which have pretty meagre local air service relative to the population.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by someone123

To be clear I'm not saying A -> B -> C routing can't make sense operationally. Just that "might as well add SJ as a stop for some people while a bunch of others will take the flight for YYZ <-> YHZ" doesn't make a lot of sense for the reasons mentioned. Adding a stop on a flight is costly in time and money, these flights are so short that the stop time is large relative to the flight itself, and there are plentiful direct alternatives. That's before you even get to talking about demand for SJ specifically.

One of the Porter flights between Moncton and Billy Bishop in Toronto includes a station stop in Ottawa (the other flighttot Billy Bishop is direct).

I have been on the flight that makes a pit stop in Ottawa a couple of times, and my observation is that there is a lot of traffic just between Moncton and Ottawa, About half the passengers disembarked there, but the plane was filled again by Ottawa passenger heading to Toronto. Because of this a stop in Ottawa nade economic sense because both legs of the trip were at high capacity.

For a station stop in Saint John, the same sort of situation would have to exist. A lot of passengers would have to get on and off the plane in SJ to make such a routing viable. If most passengers just stayed on the plane, then why do the station stop in the first place?

A plane is not like a bus or a train. There is a big fuel and time penalty for doing a station stop.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

One of the Porter flights between Moncton and Billy Bishop in Toronto includes a station stop in Ottawa (the other flighttot Billy Bishop is direct).

I have been on the flight that makes a pit stop in Ottawa a couple of times, and my observation is that there is a lot of traffic just between Moncton and Ottawa, About half the passengers disembarked there, but the plane was filled again by Ottawa passenger heading to Toronto. Because of this a stop in Ottawa nade economic sense because both legs of the trip were at high capacity.

For a station stop in Saint John, the same sort of situation would have to exist. A lot of passengers would have to get on and off the plane in SJ to make such a routing viable. If most passengers just stayed on the plane, then why do the station stop in the first place?

A plane is not like a bus or a train. There is a big fuel and time penalty for doing a station stop.

There's already a market for flights between Saint John and Toronto, and now Saint John and Halifax. The passengers exist in all three markets. Is it that ridiculous to want to see something to make up for the shafting YSJ got from being left out of the PAL pilot program?

If government subsidized a "milk run" between St. John's, Halifax, and Toronto, via Saint John, it would more than make up for Saint John (and St. John's) being left out of the PAL pilot program.



Beyond getting YSJ some more routes, the whole Maritimes deserves a robustly connected bus network to get people to the region's 6 airports. We might not ever see the return of passenger rail to NB and NS, but we should all want to see the Maritimes invest in a very good bus system, and airport shuttle services to facilitate customers getting between 6 airports in 3 provinces.



I figured there was a reason Bathurst had an airport, so I figured the bus should at least go that far... and as they say, there's no shore like the north shore.

Having an improved bus system wouldn't just connect people to the region's 6 airports better, it would better connect the people in all the 3 maritime provinces.

Tim Houston is talking about Nova Scotia becoming a wind superpower, and there being enough energy to power a third of Canada from Nova Scotia's off shore wind potential alone. Maybe one day the busses and airport shuttles of the Maritimes will be mostly powered by wind, solar, and nuclear.

It's unlikely anyone alive today will live long enough to see the electric airplanes equivalent of a jumbo jet, but the busses already do exist. Electric airport shuttles are something that NB's regional service commissions should be taking much more serious look at, and maybe one day, we could even look at airport shuttles running between NB's three CMAs.

[miniborder]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

I googled it last night on my computer and it told me there was only one daily AC flight between Toronto and St. John’s, but perhaps it was confused and thought I meant Saint John?

I searched again now on my phone and this is what came up:

But I’ll take your word for it… I thought only one daily flight seemed way too low for St. John’s. 4 seems like the proper number. Google AI and even the mighty Chat GPT seem to spit out a lot of inaccurate information… I should have went further and verified. My first Google search result told me Halifax had 17 daily AC flights to Toronto, which sounded false, and was false.

Pro tip: use ExpertFlyer or FlightsFrom. FlightsFrom is particularly nice (if you don't care about looking at load factors) because you can parse specific origin-destination URLs.

https://www.flightsfrom.com/YYT-YYZ

Originally Posted by someone123

That's before you even get to talking about demand for SJ specifically.

And speaking of ExpertFlyer, the amount of Y9 Q9 G9 R9 that I'm seeing on P6 950/951 is not overly encouraging. I'm not trying to pile on but I hope the YHZ-YSJ route can survive.

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Well, going to have to agree to disagree that Air Canada’s flight options for YSJ fit demand, when we used to have more flights available when the population was smaller and declining.

The past is the past. Airline economics are much different these days. Different fleet compositions. The price of fuel. And if you've been paying attention, skyrocketing labour costs via new collective agreements for unionized pilots and FAs.

All without a significant increase in base fares. Inflation adjusted, it has never been cheaper to fly commercially than it is today. At the end of the day, something has to give. And unfortunately, as you've correctly pointed out, smaller population centres will experience the most pain as major carriers double down on a consolidated hub-and-spoke model.

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Perhaps that’s because there is zero daily flints between YSJ and YYT? lol.

It’s pretty hard to have any traffic between the two cities when there’s no direct flight. There’s only 5 weekly flights to Halifax from Saint John, while there’s 5 daily flights between Halifax and St. John’s?

Hard to say something isn’t viable when it’s never even been attempted.



I googled it last night on my computer and it told me there was only one daily AC flight between Toronto and St. John’s, but perhaps it was confused and thought I meant Saint John?

I searched again now on my phone and this is what came up:



But I’ll take your word for it… I thought only one daily flight seemed way too low for St. John’s. 4 seems like the proper number. Google AI and even the mighty Chat GPT seem to spit out a lot of inaccurate information… I should have went further and verified. My first Google search result told me Halifax had 17 daily AC flights to Toronto, which sounded false, and was false.

Based on these more accurate numbers (and a look at the Halifax Stanfield Website)

https://halifaxstanfield.ca/flights/non-stop/


Seems like there’s quite a lot of room for growth for routes between Halifax and NB airports. There’s 5 daily flights to St. John’s according to the YHZ website, and only 5 weekly flights to Saint John.


I remain highly skeptical of the claims made in this thread that tri-city routes won’t work, won’t be profitable, or that no one will want to take them.

The airline industry is very poorly regulated and one of the most anti consumer industries in Canada, especially for Canadians in smaller centres, and things need to change. I’m glad YSJ hired a new CEO with extensive experience in the airline industry that wants to change this situation and find new ways to grow the customer base and increase air traffic in and out of the airport.

I remain optimistic that we will see more flights in and out of YSJ, despite the many naysayers here online.

Checked out YYT's website and the following AC YYT-YYZ flights are listed:
05:00 AC 685
06:35 AC 687
13:30 AC 693
18:10 AC 697

AC YYT-YUL flights:
05:05 AC 673
18:15 AC 677

[new kid in town]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Nice of them to fly right over YSJ … we can wave to them as they fly by!

Honestly though, I’m not that worried YSJ being left out of this, as most of the destinations are places I’d be driving. Where I’m hopeful, is that this shows the NB government is at least willing to subsidize routes to NB airports.

Our local leaders and airport executives should be lobbying for a subsidized route of our own, perhaps a Saint John<–>St. John’s route, as Halifax isn’t the only airport in Atlantic Canada with transatlantic routes.

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

There's already a market for flights between Saint John and Toronto, and now Saint John and Halifax. The passengers exist in all three markets. Is it that ridiculous to want to see something to make up for the shafting YSJ got from being left out of the PAL pilot program?

If government subsidized a "milk run" between St. John's, Halifax, and Toronto, via Saint John, it would more than make up for Saint John (and St. John's) being left out of the PAL pilot program.

I'm a little confused about where you stand really about this PAL program. Additionally, didn't Saint John get a regional connection flight through PASCAN months before this PAL program was announced? It's possible the potential air traffic for the PAL program coverage is already occupied by PASCAN.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by new kid in town

I'm a little confused about where you stand really about this PAL program. Additionally, didn't Saint John get a regional connection flight through PASCAN months before this PAL program was announced? It's possible the potential air traffic for the PAL program coverage is already occupied by PASCAN.

Where I really stand? I want to see an improvement for YSJ… not continued regression. Why else would I post on here?


Sure, YSJ already has the Pascan flights, but those aren’t government subsidized flights.

PAL is an Air Canada partner, while Pascan is a Porter partner… and last time I checked, Air Canada is a more useful partner airline than Porter.

YSJ was shafted by being left out of the PAL pilot program… so the least government can do is step up and subsidize some additional routes serving YSJ to make up for that. Moreover, the government of NB should be stepping up to fund a much more robust and affordable bus service between out three airports… and beyond that, the Maritime provinces should be working together to fund a much more extensive maritimes wide bus system than currently operates today.

Saint John has seen tremendous growth and progress over the past decade, yet we’ve seen YSJ’s flight offerings decline during this time, both before and after Covid.

I refuse to believe that YSJ must remain a “regional outpost” forever simply because of market conditions, etc, etc, when airlines have some of the most BS pricing and servicing models of any industry in Canada.

Also, I think it’s ridiculous to compare Saint John to a place like North Bay, Ontario as some have already done in this thread, when Saint John a bonafide seaside tourist destination that attracts nearly 200k cruise passengers per year, and is one of the most historical cities in Canada. The Saint John Airport and flights offered for Saint John leave much to be desired, and improving this situation should be a top priority for this city, region, and province.

There’s 150k people in the Saint John Region now and the region served by the airport is a lot more than that. Halifax Stanfield should be lobbying AC and other airlines to get more flights to their airport from NB and PEI. They should want as many passengers from NB as possible connecting through Halifax on transatlantic flights instead of through Toronto and Montreal.

[dhottawa729]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Where I really stand? I want to see an improvement for YSJ… not continued regression. Why else would I post on here?


Sure, YSJ already has the Pascan flights, but those aren’t government subsidized flights.

PAL is an Air Canada partner, while Pascan is a Porter partner… and last time I checked, Air Canada is a more useful partner airline than Porter.

YSJ was shafted by being left out of the PAL pilot program… so the least government can do is step up and subsidize some additional routes serving YSJ to make up for that. Moreover, the government of NB should be stepping up to fund a much more robust and affordable bus service between out three airports… and behind that, the Maritime provinces should be working together to fund a much more extensive maritimes wide bus system than currently operate today.

Saint John has seen tremendous growth and progress over the past decade, yet we’ve seen YSJ’s flight offerings decline during this time, both before and after Covid.

I refuse to believe that YSJ must remain a “regional outpost” forever simply because of market conditions, etc, etc, when airlines have some of the most BS pricing and servicing models of any industry in Canada.

Also, I think it’s ridiculous to compare Saint John to a place like North Bay, Ontario as some have already done in this thread, when it’s a bonafide seaside tourist destination that attracts nearly 200k cruise passengers per year, and is one of the most historical cities in Canada. The Saint John Airport and flights offered for Saint John leave much to be desired, and improving this situation should be a top priority for this city, region, and province.

There’s 150k people in the Saint John Region now and the region served by the airport is a lot more than that. Halifax Stanfield should be lobbying AC and other airlines to get more flights to their airport from the NB and PEI. They should want as many passengers from NB as possible connecting through Halifax on transatlantic flights instead of Toronto’s and Montreal.

I have to agree with you 100% on this one. At least Saint John is not as bad as Kingston Ontario (CMA population 172k) with minimal flights and recently got the AC-branded bus instead of AC-branded airplanes.

[miniborder]

Originally Posted by dhottawa729

At least Saint John is not as bad as Kingston Ontario (CMA population 172k) with minimal flights and recently got the AC-branded bus instead of AC-branded airplanes.

Or Sherbrooke/YSC.

[new kid in town]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Where I really stand? I want to see an improvement for YSJ… not continued regression. Why else would I post on here?

That's why I quoted you twice because your 2 posts seem to contradict each other a little. Anyways,

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

PAL is an Air Canada partner, while Pascan is a Porter partner… and last time I checked, Air Canada is a more useful partner airline than Porter.

While AC being more useful is true, that still doesn't answer if there's enough anticipated passenger base that isn't already covered by the extra flights announced prior. Of course it is unfortunate based on many users here from Saint John that not having enough flights to begin with creates an artificial "loss" of people flying out of SJ which creates a vicious cycle of airlines thinking there are no customers from the city.

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Also, I think it’s ridiculous to compare Saint John to a place like North Bay, Ontario as some have already done in this thread, when Saint John a bonafide seaside tourist destination that attracts nearly 200k cruise passengers per year, and is one of the most historical cities in Canada. The Saint John Airport and flights offered for Saint John leave much to be desired, and improving this situation should be a top priority for this city, region, and province.

Genuinely curious if a significant chunk of those 200k cruise passengers need air travel? How many people embark and/or disembark in Saint John?

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Halifax Stanfield should be lobbying AC and other airlines to get more flights to their airport from the NB and PEI. They should want as many passengers from NB as possible connecting through Halifax on transatlantic flights instead of through Toronto and Montreal.

Now this part I fully agree with. It would be nice not to have to go west in order to keep moving east.

[dhottawa729]

Originally Posted by new kid in town

Genuinely curious if a significant chunk of those 200k cruise passengers need air travel? How many people embark and/or disembark in Saint John?

I think EnvisionSJ was just trying to make a point that it’s a place where a lot of people (Americans on boat) enjoy visiting but can’t get there easily by air. The road option through Maine is equally as poor, so it’s a double-whammy. I love visiting SJ, especially Uptown in the summer. It’s got the vibe of a mini NYC when there are 3 huge ships in port!! I’d absolutely visit ever 6-8 weeks if I could get there more easily from Ottawa. I used that direct Porter flight a bunch of times and really miss it.

[sailor734]

Another, sometimes overlooked effect of the flight situation at YSJ is the impact on attracting conventions, conferences and sporting events. If it's anything more than a provincial or regional event I'm told not being able to get attendees in and out of town efficiently is a big handicap.

[bridgeoftea]

Originally Posted by sailor734

Another, sometimes overlooked effect of the flight situation at YSJ is the impact on attracting conventions, conferences and sporting events. If it's anything more than a provincial or regional event I'm told not being able to get attendees in and out of town efficiently is a big handicap.

Combine that to the chat that the convention center is not really pulling in a lot of conventions due to it's age and lack of amenities like break out rooms.
Feels like YSJ is just stuck in a hard spot unless they start going $300 cheaper than YFC/YQM. People (like me) will always choose the cheaper ticket even if it means paying for gas etc.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by bridgeoftea

Combine that to the chat that the convention center is not really pulling in a lot of conventions due to it's age and lack of amenities like break out rooms.
Feels like YSJ is just stuck in a hard spot unless they start going $300 cheaper than YFC/YQM. People (like me) will always choose the cheaper ticket even if it means paying for gas etc.

Yes, I'd heard that the convention centre is badly out of date in terms of design/features/capabilities as well. Combine that with the condition of the Hilton and lack of flights to YSJ and it really is a huge handicap to attracting conference/convention/trade show business to SJ

[magee_b]

Originally Posted by bridgeoftea

Combine that to the chat that the convention center is not really pulling in a lot of conventions due to it's age and lack of amenities like break out rooms.
Feels like YSJ is just stuck in a hard spot unless they start going $300 cheaper than YFC/YQM. People (like me) will always choose the cheaper ticket even if it means paying for gas etc.

But pricing is not up to the airport. It’s up to the airlines.
Pre-Covid the YSJ team had done some market-research to figure out their “leakage” of passengers to other airports. They used this info to negotiate some sort of equalization of Air Canada fares between YSJ/YFC/YQM, which helped somewhat, but cheaper fares will always be found once you have more than one legitimate airline option to take you to your destination.

First steps for the new CEO should be to update their understanding of their market, understand their current leakage, and if it seems greater demand actually exists, create a business case for increased services - then take that to Air Canada for service increases or Porter/WestJet for new service/service resumptions. It may sound modest, but some small wins there with an added frequency or two, or a new daily scheduled national airline partner would go a long way in getting things turned around.