Atlantic Canada airport thread

[darkharbour]

Originally Posted by Pugsley

I wonder if these will in fact operate as "PAL Airlines" flights or Air Canada Express. The primary operators of Air Canada Express flights are Jazz Aviation and PAL Airlines - so this could be service that is operated by PAL, but actually Air Canada Express flights with easier connecting service onto Air Canada flights out of Halifax - like London Heathrow, Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, St. John's, Gander, Deer Lake, Vancouver, Boston, Newark, Orlando, Tampa, Cancun, Punta Cana, and Montego Bay.

I just wish Saint John was also in this mix if the above is the reality.

Doesn't Pascan already codeshare with Air Canada though? Seems like we already have all of these connections available, but I admit I haven't tried it myself.

[J81]

Originally Posted by q12

Yes Moncton to Halifax operated 3x daily with Air Canada Express pre-pandemic.

Here is a Air Canada Timetable from the summer 2019:

If you want to go way way back both Air Nova and Air Atlantic flew YHZ-YQM 3-4 times daily each with Dash 8 and ATR42/Jetstream41. Air Nova also did YQM-YFC and YQM-YSJ a couple trips per day.

[J81]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Having thrown my support behind a return of regional air service to YHZ, I feel compelled to state that I do not want to see this happen at the risk of loss of direct service to other Canadian cities.

For example, I really appreciate the fact that Moncton has service to Calgary and Edmonton via WestJet, and to St. John's via PAL. There is a risk that if passengers start to use connecting flights to YHZ to get to western Canadian destinations such as Calgary, then WestJet might simply choose to replace the Moncton direct flight with a fifth daily direct flight from Halifax. In such a case, YQM would end up losing in the bargain.

We must tread carefully.

Passengers in Moncton have always connected through other cities in the past to get to western Canada either through YUL or YYZ. I hardly believe a single daily flight to YHZ on a 50 seat dash 8 is going to have any impact on the Westjet flights to YYC and YEG. Why would anyone trying to get to Calgary want to connect through YHZ when they could go nonstop?

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by J81

Passengers in Moncton have always connected through other cities in the past to get to western Canada either through YUL or YYZ. I hardly believe a single daily flight to YHZ on a 50 seat dash 8 is going to have any impact on the Westjet flights to YYC and YEG. Why would anyone trying to get to Calgary want to connect through YHZ when they could go nonstop?

Agreed. The passengers will always choose a direct flight if possible, but, some corporate mandarin in Calgary might come to the conclusion that "well, they can just connect through Halifax anyway, why do we need to maintain yet another station in Moncton???" This is where the risk lies - at the corporate level.

[q12]

^
Except... Westjet is not flying between Moncton and Halifax and probably never will.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by q12

^
Except... Westjet is not flying between Moncton and Halifax and probably never will.

Yeah, this seems to be far more of an Air Canada story. Although, it doesn't bode well for increased flights to the ROC from any of these cities other than YHZ

[Pugsley]

Originally Posted by darkharbour

Doesn't Pascan already codeshare with Air Canada though? Seems like we already have all of these connections available, but I admit I haven't tried it myself.

Pascan is "partnered" with Porter, whereas PAL is partnered with Air Canada. So, I anticipate that these PAL flights might operate as Air Canada Express from Fredericton, Moncton, Charlottetown, and Sydney to Halifax. Then the Pascan flights from Saint John to Montreal (YHU) and Halifax will likely be Porter connections.


So, Saint John will likely be more Porter-focused whereas the others will be more Air Canada - if in fact the above transpires based on the existing relationships.

As for WestJet, I don't see them abandoning their Moncton, Fredericton, and Charlottetown service to the west. However, if the above does in fact transpire as the "rule of the land" code-share wise it will be interesting to see what they come up with as a connector to YHZ, as Halifax does offer seasonal WestJet routes to Europe. It will be interesting to see what happens if WestJet doesn't find some sort of connection to YHZ - as local passengers in the rest of the Maritimes may not take advantage of these European flights if they cannot seamless code-share connect from their home airport and are forced to drive to YHZ.

I guess we shall see.

[J81]

Originally Posted by q12

^
Except... Westjet is not flying between Moncton and Halifax and probably never will.

Exactly

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by J81

If you want to go way way back both Air Nova and Air Atlantic flew YHZ-YQM 3-4 times daily each with Dash 8 and ATR42/Jetstream41. Air Nova also did YQM-YFC and YQM-YSJ a couple trips per day.

Back in the day, I would fly frequently between YYT and YFC. Both Air Nova and Air Atlantic operated BAe-146 jets on some of the flights from Halifax to Fredericton; which usually went onwards from Fredericton to Montreal or Ottawa. Can recall on one of the return trips back to YYT, the first leg was a BAe146 from Fredericton to Halifax with a stop in Saint John.

These PAL flights will improve air travel within Atlantic Canada; especially connecting flights to/from Newfoundland. YYT-YHZ-YFC is a much better option than a flight to Halifax with a 4 hour drive to Fredericton; especially in winter. Now only if AC will bring back jet service for its YYT-YHZ flights.

[new kid in town]

Is it possible that Saint John got left out because this PAL pilot project was in the works much earlier, and because of PASCAN, they opted out? They then could have rushed to establish PASCAN route and promote it sooner, perhaps to gain foothold of the consumer base?

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Is this route map correct?

Does this mean that passengers from YQM will have to fly via YFC to get to YHZ???

Reading the press release carefully, it sounds as if the plan is for a single flight per day on all of these three new routes. This could mean that if your intent is to connect to another flight in Halifax, you could end up spending many hours trapped in the airport terminal at Halifax Stanfield. Flight frequency should be no less than 2x daily

EDIT - The flights will be 2x daily from Charlottetown, but daily from Moncton/Fredericton and Sydney.

Nice of them to fly right over YSJ … we can wave to them as they fly by!

Honestly though, I’m not that worried YSJ being left out of this, as most of the destinations are places I’d be driving. Where I’m hopeful, is that this shows the NB government is at least willing to subsidize routes to NB airports.

Our local leaders and airport executives should be lobbying for a subsidized route of our own, perhaps a Saint John<–>St. John’s route, as Halifax isn’t the only airport in Atlantic Canada with transatlantic routes.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Since Saint John and St. John's are both being cut out of this round of flight subsidies made possibly by the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency and provincial funding... YSJ and YYT should both be lobbying their respective provincial governments and the federal government to fund new subsidies for regional routes between the two biggest CMA's in Atlantic Canada left out of this round of subsidization.

A direct flight between Saint John and St. John's could make this "Reverse Potato Famine" route possible between the Emerald Isle's main port of emigration and Canada's two "most Irish cities" with almost identical names.



I believe there's at least 3 direct flights to Dublin already between Halifax and St. John's?

St. John's<->Cork would a great option for New Brunswickers wanting to visit Ireland with a more direct connection to Ireland than Halifax, and one that lands somewhere other than Dublin.

I think Moncton YQM should also get a direct flight to St. John's added to their list of destinations. A direct route between Saint John<->Moncton<->St. John's would probably be a more sustainable route than separate non stop flights between St. John's and Moncton and St. John's and Saint John.

If you ask "Irish" New Brunswick where "their people" came from in Ireland, and County Cork seems to be the he most common answer, by far. Cork is also an exceptional City, but with with a much less English vibe and history than Dublin.



Don't get me wrong, Dublin is a great city, but Dublin and Galway get most of the tourist attention in Ireland. Cork is incredibly under-looked for being the second largest city in Ireland... and being under-looked is something St. John's and especially Saint John can relate with, clearly.

Cork is also a bit more affordable than Dublin for a vacation, with more beautiful scenery and a more quintessentially Irish countryside surrounding the city.

[q12]

"Reverse Potato Famine"

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Since Saint John and St. John's are both being cut out of this round of flight subsidies made possibly by the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency and provincial funding... YSJ and YYT should both be lobbying their respective provincial governments and the federal government to fund new subsidies for regional routes between the two biggest CMA's in Atlantic Canada left out of this round of subsidization.

A direct flight between Saint John and St. John's could make this "Reverse Potato Famine" route possible between the Emerald Isle's main port of emigration and Canada's two "most Irish cities" with almost identical names.



I believe there's at least 3 direct flights to Dublin already between Halifax and St. John's?

St. John's<->Cork would a great option for New Brunswickers wanting to visit Ireland with a more direct connection to Ireland than Halifax, and one that lands somewhere other than Dublin.

I think Moncton YQM should also get a direct flight to St. John's added to their list of destinations. A direct route between Saint John<->Moncton<->St. John's would probably be a more sustainable route than separate non stop flights between St. John's and Moncton and St. John's and Saint John.

If you ask "Irish" New Brunswick where "their people" came from in Ireland, and County Cork seems to be the he most common answer, by far. Cork is also an exceptional City, but with with a much less English vibe and history than Dublin.



Don't get me wrong, Dublin is a great city, but Dublin and Galway get most of the tourist attention in Ireland. Cork is incredibly under-looked for being the second largest city in Ireland... and being under-looked is something St. John's and especially Saint John can relate with, clearly.

Cork is also a bit more affordable than Dublin for a vacation, with more beautiful scenery and a more quintessentially Irish countryside surrounding the city.

The fact Cork currently has no NA air service speaks volumes. But somehow, flights to YYT and YSJ will work?

[Pugsley]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

The fact Cork currently has no NA air service speaks volumes. But somehow, flights to YYT and YSJ will work?

The bigger issue is the Freedom of Air Rules. They are as follows:

1. First Freedom: The right to fly over a foreign country without landing.
2. Second Freedom: The right to land in a foreign country for non-traffic purposes, such as refueling or maintenance.
3. Third Freedom: The right to carry passengers and cargo from the airline's home country to a foreign country.
4. Fourth Freedom: The right to carry passengers and cargo from a foreign country back to the airline's home country.

This means that an international airline cannot offer service between two airports within a foreign country, unless approved by what they call the "Fifth Freedom". This is a rarely allowed "Freedom" some airlines have been granted but overall, not common to protect domestic airlines. I don't believe Canada has ever permitted a Fifth Freedom flight scenario.

This means that the proposed route would need to be a Canadian airline operating this route (i.e. Air Canada or Westjet). Could it be done? Sure, but likely not to Cork, more likely to Dublin, and potentially through Halifax vs. St. John's - simply due to a stronger airline base staffing-wise for either of the two airlines mentioned. But overall, the likelihood of this happening would be very small. Aer Lingus, for example, could not offer this route and take passengers from the stopover in St. John's nor Halifax. It could try, but this would take lots of different levels of approval - which would likely not be granted.

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by Pugsley

The bigger issue is the Freedom of Air Rules. They are as follows:

1. First Freedom: The right to fly over a foreign country without landing.
2. Second Freedom: The right to land in a foreign country for non-traffic purposes, such as refueling or maintenance.
3. Third Freedom: The right to carry passengers and cargo from the airline's home country to a foreign country.
4. Fourth Freedom: The right to carry passengers and cargo from a foreign country back to the airline's home country.

This means that an international airline cannot offer service between two airports within a foreign country. There may be some outliers to these rules but overall, it is not allowed.

This means that the proposed route would need to be a Canadian airline operating this route (i.e. Air Canada or Westjet). Could it be done? Sure, but likely not to Cork, more likely to Dublin, and potentially through Halifax vs. St. John's - simply due to a stronger airline base staffing-wise for either of the two airlines mentioned. But overall, the likelihood of this happening would be very small. Aer Lingus, for example, could not offer this route and take passengers from the stopover in St. John's nor Halifax. It could try, but this would take lots of different levels of approval - which would likely not be granted.

You are correct. Under Canadian cabotage rules, a foreign carrier may operate a triangular routing involving two Canadian points, but cannot transport passengers solely between those domestic points.KLM’s former AMS–Calgary–Edmonton service, where passenger carriage between Calgary and Edmonton was prohibited.

A Canadian carrier may operate a triangular route including a foreign point, but the inbound leg from the foreign origin triggers customs and security requirements. At the first Canadian stop, all passengers must disembark for CBSA processing. Those continuing to the second Canadian city must reclaim and recheck baggage, and clear security again. Air Canada YHZ–YYT–LHR (historic) – Domestic YHZ–YYT passengers permitted outbound; inbound from LHR required all passengers, including Halifax-bound, to clear customs and security in YYT.

Air Canada YYZ–YVR–SYD (current) – Upon arrival in Vancouver, all passengers disembark. Vancouver-bound passengers exit normally; Sydney-bound passengers are held in a sterile gate area before re-boarding with YVR-originating passengers.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Just to clarify... I wasn't suggesting government to subsidize a route between Saint John<->St. John's<->Cork.

I was suggesting government subsidized direct flights between Saint John and St. John's, and probably Moncton too.

I assume they'd have more success with a Saint John<->Moncton<->St. John's route than separate routes to YYT from both YSJ and and YQM...


A direct flight between Saint John<->St. John's<->Cork would be nice though, maybe it could work one day.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

The fact Cork currently has no NA air service speaks volumes. But somehow, flights to YYT and YSJ will work?

Just because something doesn't exist yet, doesn't mean it won't work.

No airport in Canada is closer to Ireland than St. John's right?

I really don't think it's a stretch that a direct flight to Cork from St. John's would have a market, and it's not like there's a shortage of flights to St. John's from larger Canadian population centres.

Obviously, I don't think St. John's <-> Cork would be a daily, year round flight, but I do think it could be a successful seasonal route. Not all flights to Ireland from North America need to lead to Dublin...

Originally Posted by q12

"Reverse Potato Famine"

Many victims of the great famine emigrated to both Saint John and St. John's... a route like this could give their ancestors a more direct journey "back" to Ireland, which is now one of the richest countries in Europe.

Please excuse my poor attempt at humour, but I don't think this qualifies under "too soon"

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Crossposting from the "SJ and SJ's: Confusing?" thread on the Canada forum:



Courtesy Reddit

While, I've long advocated for the Saint John, NB to embrace regional amalgamation under a new name such as the Fundy or Wolastoq Regionional Municipality, and continue to believe it would fundamentally improve the situation here in the Saint John Region and fundamentally lessen the "Saint John/ St. John's confusion".

The Saint John Airport could change its Airport name to Fundy or Wolastoq Regional (or even better International) Airport, before comprehensive regional amalgamation were to occur. The Airport could then decide to retain the YSJ airport code, or adopt a new one like YWT or ... YFU

I think keeping the YSJ airport code would be totally fine under either Fundy or Wolastoq re-branding, and I think most locals would like to keep the YSJ airport code... myself included, because even if the Saint John Region did amalgamate under a new name one day, "SJ" isn't going to be wiped off the map.

I think enough's enough when it comes to the confusion between these two airports. St. John's had the name first, and they have the far busier airport.



TL;DR: The Saint John Airport should change its name, yesterday.

[bingun]

The draft 2026 capital budget includes the new roundabout at Loch Lomond Road.

I flew out of YSJ a few weeks back for the first time in several years, and I actually got stuck at the intersection with a few other vehicles for quite a while trying to turn left up towards the airport, which made me think about the proposed roundabout.

I forgot the specifics, but more than once in the last few months, when speaking to this, they've said how it is critical for the airport's future plans and will need to be closely coordinated with them. I believe it would include a new exit opposite the arterial up towards the back side of the airport.

If they are moving ahead with the roundabout in 2026, does that imply that the airport's plans are also moving ahead? Should we expect to see more information on this, or is this just wishful thinking?