Fargo-Moorhead developments information

[Doc]

I gotta disagree NanoBison. I went there pretty much every week. I got my coffee (fresh roasted from an NDSU grad roaster in Fergus Falls), the best cornichons (small, really tart dill pickles), cheeses, local vegetables, homemade bagels, and gourmet food. I also went there for tapas and other foods. It really, really sucks that they are closing, because they were my lifeline to super-high quality local food without the Whole Foods price. It's a sad, sad day in Fargo when these folks can't make it (I think Andrea was the former head chef at the HoDo). I hope they find a way to make this happen at a later date (and in maybe a better downtown location with more parking).

[rrskylar]

I'm not surprised Krispy Kreme is closing up shop. They basically sell fat and flour that's been deep-fried. The company itself as a whole, isn't doing very well. From it's stock high of 49.00/share (2003) it's now around ~$3.00/share.

Green Market on the other hand, while a nice concept, I kinda didn't think was going to stick around. There food was more "health food" and expensive. Yeah, it was a deli, and I heard they had wine and cheese events that were really nice. But I never saw anything in there that would attract daily business people or students for lunch and dinner hours.... Hopefully the current owners can rethink the idea and come up with something else. I also think it's a great location, but the inside could use a lot of work in terms of remodeling. But it's big enough for a decent sized restaurant with the big back room they have...



Had a crappy donut and shitty coffee at KrispyKrap in Fargo this past summer, when I drove up to the place I actually thought it had closed down already (no cars in lot, garbage in parking lot)! A Tim Horton's on that location would probably do well with just the patronage of Canadian shoppers.

[F-Misthebest]

Well, the Krispy Kreme Donut building has already been purchased. Rumor has it, a friend of friend has purchased the building and is opening a Panera in that local.

[SmileyBoy]

Well, the Krispy Kreme Donut building has already been purchased. Rumor has it, a friend of friend has purchased the building and is opening a Panera in that local.

Panera Bread??? let's hope to God it's true!!!:banana: :banana: :banana:

[wilson]

Panera would be a good, logical choice.

[matthew2109]

Hooray!!! 4 down, 46 to go!!!

Jimmy John's
Bruegger's Bagels
Chipotle
Panera Bread
Dunn Bros. Coffee
Dave & Buster's
CompUSA
Pottery Barn
Dick's Sporting Goods
The Men's Wearhouse
Circuit City
Popeye's Fried Chicken
Marshall's
Hollister
Apple Store
Staples
Romano's Macaroni Grill
Ultimate Electronics
Borders Books
Boston Market
White Castle
Lids
Old Country Buffet
DSW Shoe Warehouse
Costco
Joe's Crab Shack
Houlihan's
Cinnabon
REI
Cabela's
Whole Foods
Noodle's & Company
Jamba Juice
The Sports Authority
Champs Sports
Baskin-Robbins
California Pizza Kitchen
P.F. Chang's
Buca di Beppo
Don Pablo's
Benihana
Sonic
Fuddruckers
Tony Roma's
Stein Mart
Archiver's
Williams Sonoma
Crate & Barrel
Fatburger
Bally's Fitness

Nice List. IMO thats alotta sports stores. I believe CompUSA is closing its doors. Cabelas is in East Grand Forks and i cant possibly see them opening anoother store this close. Sonic is a real long shot because they are not into North Dakota. The closest one is in Sioux Falls though. Circuit City would do well here because there is no competition to Worst Buy err Best Buy. Fargo is so behind in technology i cant see the Apple Store coming real soon. Dave & Busters is another store that would do very well.

[NanoBison]

Nice List. IMO thats alotta sports stores. I believe CompUSA is closing its doors. Cabelas is in East Grand Forks and i cant possibly see them opening anoother store this close. Sonic is a real long shot because they are not into North Dakota. The closest one is in Sioux Falls though. Circuit City would do well here because there is no competition to Worst Buy err Best Buy. Fargo is so behind in technology i cant see the Apple Store coming real soon. Dave & Busters is another store that would do very well.

Welcome to the thread mathew2109! It's always good to see the Fargo thread grow. Can you elaborate on why you think Fargo is "so behind in technology"? Are talking products, services, or jobs?

[SmileyBoy]

Welcome to the thread mathew2109! It's always good to see the Fargo thread grow. Can you elaborate on why you think Fargo is "so behind in technology"? Are talking products, services, or jobs?

I think what he means is the lack of technology retail. For example, the only places where you can go buy a flash drive in this city are the Best Buy at West Acres, or maybe one of the Wal-Marts or Targets, if you can find them there. I have always said a Circuit City would pay off big time in Fargo, due to Best Buy currently holding the monopoly as the city's only large all-electronics store. Either build a 2nd Best Buy in Moorhead (Sioux Falls is building a 2nd Best Buy, so I don't see why F-M, which is almost identical size shouldn't have another one), or build a Circuit City somewhere in the 45th St./13th Ave. corridor. I have to agree with him about the lack of electronics retail.

[wilson]

There has to be either another BB or Circuit City biulding in the 52nd ave area. Wouldn't that make sense?

[F-Misthebest]

I don't know if anyone has read or scanned through this but I found it to be quite interesting. Full of great details.

http://www.fmmetrocog.org/projects/FM%20Framework%20Plan%20Final%208-15-07.pdf

[matthew2109]

Welcome to the thread mathew2109! It's always good to see the Fargo thread grow. Can you elaborate on why you think Fargo is "so behind in technology"? Are talking products, services, or jobs?

Talking about products and services. I moved from Austin and well i was use to the high technology we had there. For example there is no 3g here.

[matthew2109]

I think what he means is the lack of technology retail. For example, the only places where you can go buy a flash drive in this city are the Best Buy at West Acres, or maybe one of the Wal-Marts or Targets, if you can find them there. I have always said a Circuit City would pay off big time in Fargo, due to Best Buy currently holding the monopoly as the city's only large all-electronics store. Either build a 2nd Best Buy in Moorhead (Sioux Falls is building a 2nd Best Buy, so I don't see why F-M, which is almost identical size shouldn't have another one), or build a Circuit City somewhere in the 45th St./13th Ave. corridor. I have to agree with him about the lack of electronics retail.

There has to be either another BB or Circuit City biulding in the 52nd ave area. Wouldn't that make sense?

IMO there should be a Circuit City built down there (52nd Ave/I29). Im kinda of tired of Best Buy holding the fort down. I dont know where on 45th St and 13th Ave you will build the CC at. Maybe at 45th St and 15th Ave across from Bremer Bank??

[SmileyBoy]

IMO there should be a Circuit City built down there (52nd Ave/I29). Im kinda of tired of Best Buy holding the fort down. I dont know where on 45th St and 13th Ave you will build the CC at. Maybe at 45th St and 15th Ave across from Bremer Bank??

There's an open spot next to Home Depot at 45th St. Marketplace that would be perfect for a Circuit City, IMO. It's just behind McDonald's and Dunn Bros.

[matthew2109]

There's an open spot next to Home Depot at 45th St. Marketplace that would be perfect for a Circuit City, IMO. It's just behind McDonald's and Dunn Bros.

I see that more as a pad site for restaurant or another bank site. I remember seeing an aerial view when Petro was the only thing there with Mickie D's there. 19th Ave stopped at Petro back in that pic. Also i think thats too far from the interstate than putting it up in at 52nd Ave/I29. They can put their sign along with the other tennant's signs right off the highway. Also maybe CC right next to Northern Tool on the 45th St/I94 interchange.

[dennis]

Tim Horton's is a popular coffee/doughnut franchise in Canada. I know there are some outlets in the U.S.A. I was just wondering if there are any in the Fargo-Moorhead area.

[MoreFM]

You know the developer for that area where the wal-mart is going in on 52nd and I-29 was talking about putting in 3 or so big box stores. There is also the commercial property to the north of Star Fireworks. One could only hope a Circuit City would be one of them. I am so sick of Best Buy, they know they do not have any competition.

I think Fargo is getting big enough and 13th is so packed it needs to review it's thoughts on another location for more retail locations such as 13th. Who know maybe someone will decide it's time to put in another mall.

[SmileyBoy]

You know the developer for that area where the wal-mart is going in on 52nd and I-29 was talking about putting in 3 or so big box stores. There is also the commercial property to the north of Star Fireworks. One could only hope a Circuit City would be one of them. I am so sick of Best Buy, they know they do not have any competition.

I think Fargo is getting big enough and 13th is so packed it needs to review it's thoughts on another location for more retail locations such as 13th. Who know maybe someone will decide it's time to put in another mall.

The city and developers are touting 52nd Ave. as the Next Great Strip. Wal-Mart, Lowe's, Costco and SuperTarget all have agreed to build in varying developments along 52nd. There's three different developments going up on 52nd, The District, Crossroads, and another one I forgot the name of. I just hope construction starts soon, because 52nd is still a dirty 2-lane road, and the Woodhaven and Mercantile developments have already bled into that street.

[F-Misthebest]

^ What's Crossroads? I know of the Crossing but thats on 32nd.

[SmileyBoy]

^ What's Crossroads? I know of the Crossing but thats on 32nd.

There's another development planned for 52nd called "Crossroads" or something like that. Costco and I think SuperTarget have agreed to build there. The District is the one with the Wal-Mart, and I believe Lowes. I believe I heard of a third one, but I don't know much about that one.

[wilson]

^ What's Crossroads? I know of the Crossing but thats on 32nd.
Crossroads is the mall here in St Cloud! haha

And Smiley, you say Costco has agreed to build, but are you maybe confusing that with Shopko? Shopko is what I've heard before.

[SmileyBoy]

Crossroads is the mall here in St Cloud! haha

And Smiley, you say Costco has agreed to build, but are you maybe confusing that with Shopko? Shopko is what I've heard before.

Nope, I believe it was Costco. There was an article about it a little while back. It's somewhere in this thread.

[sodak]

Have any building permit numbers for 2007 in Fargo-Moorhead been released yet? Hopefully you guys has as good of a year as we did in the Sioux Falls area (above $650 million metro-wide).

[SmileyBoy]

Have any building permit numbers for 2007 in Fargo-Moorhead been released yet? Hopefully you guys has as good of a year as we did in the Sioux Falls area (above $650 million metro-wide).

I haven't heard any numbers yet. I'm pretty sure it'll be similar to Sioux Falls' numbers.

[NanoBison]

I think it'll mostly depend on how much of the current Microsoft Campus expansion goes on this year's numbers. I think that project is roughly $75 million alone ( bigger than when Innovis was built ). I'm not sure if we'll hit $650 million, but I think it would be a safe assumption that we'll come close, if not pass $500 million, which is overall pretty good for our area.

:tup:

Here's to the growth of Fargo and Sioux Falls, bringing more and more people into the great plains region of the country, while the rest of our states (ND and SD), for the most part, continue to shrink in population, especially in the rural areas.

:banana:

[NanoBison]

Well, Hector International Airport is reporting decent numbers again this year. This is the second busiest year for Hector International. Some of the reasons for lower numbers this year are most likely Delta Airlines continually changing their schedule around (3-4 times this year). Travel was also a pain for most airlines this winter mainly United and NWA.

Hopefully, we can get a few more destinations and with Microsoft poised to grow by an additional 200+ people each year over the next couple of years, I see these numbers continuing to go up. I remember Eide Bailly was also inquiring about eastern routes through Cincinnati or Atlanta. I'd also expect us to eventually get some sort of route in Florida through Allegiant.


Dec-07 Dec-06 % Change YTD2007 YTD2006 % Change
Total Passengers 50,329 51,054 -1.4% 599,168 609,731 -1.7%
Enplaned Passengers 24,827 25,524 -2.7% 297,964 305,218 -2.4%
Deplaned Passengers 25,502 25,530 -0.1% 301,204 304,513 1.1%

[MoreFM]

Planning commission OK’s retail at 52nd Avenue South, new zoning on edge of downtown
Andrea Domaskin, The Forum
Published Wednesday, January 09, 2008

A proposal to develop a retail center at 52nd Avenue South and Interstate 29 is headed to the Fargo City Commission.

The city Planning Commission voted Wednesday to recommend approval of the plat for Tim McShane’s Fargo Crossroads Center.

He proposes four lots and two retention ponds on 40 acres currently owned by Fred and Earlyne Hector. McShane plans to buy the land, which has been the subject of several development-related applications to the city in recent years.

McShane, a Fargo native and the principal of Edina, Minn.-based McShane Development, said Wednesday a major retail tenant is still interested in coming to the property.

He declined to name the retailer.

RELATED CONTENT
Andrea Domaskin Archive
Also on Wednesday, city commissioners voted 6-4 to recommend approval of a zoning change at the edge of Fargo’s downtown.

Some nearby businesses with truck traffic oppose proposed downtown mixed use designation for 520 10th St. N., four properties on Fourth Avenue North and property at 414 11th St. N.

A downtown mixed-use designation allows housing, which general commercial doesn’t.

The Fargo Housing and Redevelopment Authority owns 414 11th St. N. and plans to add affordable housing and perhaps another use there, said Lynn Fundingsland, the executive

Business representatives, including Randy Christianson, president of Beverage Wholesalers at 701 4th Ave. N. said Wednesday they’re concerned about adding housing to an area with more industrial uses.

Christianson said he’s also concerned about the increasing difficulty of driving trucks downtown as the area booms with retail and housing.

[Justin_144]

I find myself driving in circles downtown....Is there any free parking lots anywhere near the NDSU building?.....Fargo is soooo confusing lol

[SmileyBoy]

I find myself driving in circles downtown....Is there any free parking lots anywhere near the NDSU building?.....Fargo is soooo confusing lol

The only free lot is a little dirt strip right next to the railroad tracks on the south side of the building. Students fill that up like crazy. otherwise, you have to pay $3 at the city lot next door. Which pisses me off, because the lot is owned by a private company, and they don't offer to sell yearly passes for $200 or something like that. Which is way I find myself a lot of times parking in the 2-hour spaces on NP Ave. across 8th street from the building.

Do you take classes at NDSU Downtown as well?? So do I. I'm working on my B.F.A. I take almost all my classes downtown.

[F-Misthebest]

I was surfin the web and came across a Fargo-Moorhead Development blog. I don't know if it is any of yours but here it is.

http://fargodev.blogspot.com/

[SmileyBoy]

I was surfin the web and came across a Fargo-Moorhead Development blog. I don't know if it is any of yours but here it is.

http://fargodev.blogspot.com/

I've seen that blog. So far, there's nothing in it that I don't already know, LOL

[F-Misthebest]

Yeah, we got em beat.

[Justin_144]

Yeah, im a first year student taking 2 ENVD classes there. It works out because one is a night class and the arms are up so I just park in the lot next to the building but I also have a morning class....so the 2 hour parking is just across the street? I really dont want to pay to park in that lot...Im a bit suprised that there are no meters around ... alot of downtown is short term parking which makes it hard for students.

[ebitdadada]

I
Here's to the growth of Fargo and Sioux Falls, bringing more and more people into the great plains region of the country, while the rest of our states (ND and SD), for the most part, continue to shrink in population, especially in the rural areas.
:banana:

Granted, Fargo-Moorehead is the second fastest growing metro area in North Dakota but I suppose that's still pretty good. :notacrook:

FYI, the smiley face guy in this post is rocking out hard.

[Doc]

We still know that Bizsmirk exists. Too bad you don't know what thread you are on.

Here's a hint: start your own thread and see who comes.:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:

[ebitdadada]

We still know that Bizsmirk exists. Too bad you don't know what thread you are on.

Here's a hint: start your own thread and see who comes.:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:

Haha - Previous post was just a friendly jab, nothing else. Sorry but I'm a census / econ nerd.

I actually live in St. Louis (which I beleive is the fastest growing metro area within 50 miles of St. Louis :P) so starting a thread on Bizmirk? development would be challenging.

[Doc]

Surely you can't be carrying water for Bland Forks.

Or maybe you just want to keep bumping Fargo to the top of the board. Whatever floats your boat.:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:

[SmileyBoy]

There's no way Bismarck-Mandan is growing faster than F-M. Even if it is growing fast...

[F-Misthebest]

Well, thats the census for ya. Bismarck is growing fast, but West Fargo is the states fastest growing city.

[F-Misthebest]

The census also says Fargo gained like 7 people from 2000 to 2006. I just am waiting for 2010 when we can shove 105,000 people in their face.

[SmileyBoy]

The census also says Fargo gained like 7 people from 2000 to 2006. I just am waiting for 2010 when we can shove 105,000 people in their face.

Actually the census "claims" Fargo lost 570 people or something like that between 2000 and 2006.

[F-Misthebest]

Oh even better! Geniuses aren't they?

[SmileyBoy]

Here's a new pic I found of what the inside of the Urban Plains Center will look like:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v199/SmileyBoy/UPCenter.jpg

[F-Misthebest]

Thats pretty sharp lookin! Glad to see FM get another prominent structure. Sure its not even in the league of the "Ralph" but it is still very nice.

[SmileyBoy]

Thats pretty sharp lookin! Glad to see FM get another prominent structure. Sure its not even in the league of the "Ralph" but it is still very nice.

I actually copied, pasted and cropped both pics from the PDF. Here's another view, the one on top that's been enlarged:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v199/SmileyBoy/UPCenter2.jpg

[F-Misthebest]

Wow thats gonna be very nice. Looking forward to going to some games there. Very impresseive structure.

[Reichert]

The census also says Fargo gained like 7 people from 2000 to 2006. I just am waiting for 2010 when we can shove 105,000 people in their face.

If housing units are any indicator you might find an extra 3-5K under the couch to shove at them.

[wayne1991]

i was wondering if anyone would be interested in seeing williston,nd developement, or is there a thread for williston? thanks

[Reichert]

There isn't a thread for Williston but us North Dakota stat and development folks would love to see some threads, especially as it pertains to the oil boom.

[BigTicket]

Stumbled on to this link on a different board...

http://proximityone.com/msa06rnk.htm

Fargo is projected to grow at a rate of 24.42% from 2000-2020, the national average is 19.5%. They project Fargo(MSA) to be at 217,366(+42,662 from 2000). Not bad, #1 growth percentage in ND and #10 overall in the midwest.

Other MSAs...
Bismarck 23.46%
Sioux Falls 43.95% :worship: :worship:
Grand Forks -.23%

[SmileyBoy]

Stumbled on to this link on a different board...

http://proximityone.com/msa06rnk.htm

Fargo is projected to grow at a rate of 24.42% from 2000-2020, the national average is 19.5%. They project Fargo(MSA) to be at 217,366(+42,662 from 2000). Not bad, #1 growth percentage in ND and #10 overall in the midwest.

Other MSAs...
Bismarck 23.46%
Sioux Falls 43.95% :worship: :worship:
Grand Forks -.23%

217,366 for the 2-county metro for 2020 seems low to me. FMMETROCOG says the 2-county metro is already at 195,000. I would think that a quarter million for Cass-Clay is possible for 2020. Remember, these numbers are based off Census data, and we all know the Census has been shafting this city in the ass for the past several years.

[BigTicket]

217,366 for the 2-county metro for 2020 seems low to me. FMMETROCOG says the 2-county metro is already at 195,000. I would think that a quarter million for Cass-Clay is possible for 2020. Remember, these numbers are based off Census data, and we all know the Census has been shafting this city in the ass for the past several years.

I know it is based off the census but still 24.5% isn't bad. Especially when we know that number is on the low side. 250k in 2020 would be a big jump(43.1%), that would be massive growth. I'd be estatic to see that number, it would shatter the amount of growth the city had from 1980 to 2000(24%)

[SmileyBoy]

I know it is based off the census but still 24.5% isn't bad. Especially when we know that number is on the low side. 250k in 2020 would be a big jump(43.1%), that would be massive growth. I'd be estatic to see that number, it would shatter the amount of growth the city had from 1980 to 2000(24%)

With the way the census is calculating it, they are saying F-M's rate of increase in the 2000's will be much less than the 1990's. From what I have visually experienced of the city (I moved out in 1992 and came back in 2003) from 2003 to present, I would think the rate of increase may be a little more total than the 90's. Fargo seems to have grown at around the same rate, and West Fargo is experienced a boom it has never seen, and Moorhead is growing this decade, while in the 1990's it was stagnant for the most part. Hopefully the upcoming estimates for Fargo in the next few years will be corrected.

[F-Misthebest]

Miguelito’s firing up grill
Craig McEwen, The Forum
Published Tuesday, January 22, 2008

As a teen, Miguel Contreras spent his summers working in Red River Valley sugar beet fields.

Now, after 18 years of working in Texas restaurants, he is opening his second Miguelito’s Mexican Grill and Cantina in Dilworth.

“It’s going to be a top-notch, full-service restaurant and bar. We’re ready to rock ’n’ roll,” said the 41-year-old Contreras, who opened his first restaurant in 2004 in Crystal City, Texas, his hometown.

Plans are to open Miguelito’s, 1505 Center Ave., in mid-February, Contreras said, in the former Speedway Restaurant building.

The restaurant will seat about 175 people. A separate cantina will seat about 50 people. During summer months, an outdoor patio will seat another 50 customers, he said.

Our signature items are going to be our enchiladas and fajitas,” said Contreras. “It’s all authentic. Ninety-nine percent we make in- house.”

The menu will also offer American cuisine like Angus steaks and hamburgers, appetizers, salads, soups and a full line of Mexican dinner entrees. “We will have a little bit for everybody,” Contreras said.

“We’re excited for it to open up,” said Ken Parke, Dilworth city administrator.

So is Contreras. “We did a lot of remodeling. I’m excited about the whole thing,” he said. “We’re shooting for a family-oriented restaurant.”

Contreras grew up in the restaurant business working initially for his parents and for restaurants in the Austin, Texas, area prior to opening his own, he said.

“This plan has been a life-long dream of mine,” he said. “My whole life I’ve been wanting to own a restaurant of my own.”

Eventually he hopes to expand into North Dakota and open restaurants in Grand Forks, Bismarck and Minot, he said.

“It’s an ambitious plan, but I know I can pull it off with the help of my family,” he said.

Readers can reach Forum Business Editor Craig McEwen at (701) 241-5502
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


I also drove around town a little bit today. Down on 52nd, they already are putting in roads for the District at Fargo. The signs for the development are up as well. And 42nd street now connects with 52nd avenue.

[F-Misthebest]

http://www.eapc.net/building/default.asp?ID=459
Thats a little more info on the District.

[NanoBison]

Don't forget about this little tidbit :

2008 projects to total $152M
Andrea Domaskin, The Forum
Published Tuesday, January 22, 2008

Big road and flood projects could equal big dollars for Fargo this year.

City commissioners met with staff members Monday to take a peek at $152 million in new roads, flood control projects and other construction planned this year.

The project list is unusually large....

read more here. (http://www.in-forum.com/News/articles/189576)

Project List :

Major projects Fargo is considering

$152 million in capital improvements this year, driven in part by growth on the city’s south side. The planned improvements include:

- $59.6 million in North Dakota Department of Transportation projects, including work on the Interstate 29 interchange at 52nd Avenue South and widening the 12th Avenue North viaduct.

- $17.4 million in new utilities, pavement and street lights for major roads, including work on 52nd Avenue South and paving 57th Street south of Interstate 94.

- $15.6 million in new utilities, pavement and street lights for local streets.

- $16 million for sanitary sewers.

- $17.9 million for storm sewers and flood mitigation, including work on the Southside Flood Control Project.



This is just utilities and roads... not homes, business, or other typical construction... It's going to be a great year for contractors and construction firms.....

:tup:

[F-Misthebest]

UP Center construction could come to halt if agreement with Fargo School District is finalized by Friday
Heath Hotzler, The Forum
Published Tuesday, January 22, 2008

Construction on the proposed $25 million Urban Plains Center hockey arena could soon be halted if a deal between the Metro Sports Foundation and the Fargo School District's administration to help secure funding for the project is not finalized by Friday, MSF board member Al Hintz said tonight.

"We do not have the money if we don't secure the bonds," Hintz said. "Construction could be halted for a period of time."

The Fargo School Board voted 6-3 today to ask its administration to enter into negotiations with the MSF on a lease of no more than 15 years at a an hourly rate of $155 per hour. The final product of the negotiations will be brought back before the School Board at a later date.

No timetable has been set for a vote on the proposal. The School Board could call a special meeting before Jan. 31.

Hintz said the project's scheduled Oct. 31 opening date could be delayed if an agreement is not made by Friday.

For more on this story, see tomorrow's Forum.

[F-Misthebest]

With the major growth that is going to be taking place in the area this year, especially in south Fargo as we know from that newspaper article, what do you think the 4 city population will be at the end of the year?

[Paulyt23]

Like everyone I think the census estimates are way off, but I don't think Fargo will see the growth that it did in the 1990s for many different reasons. More than a few people said that they see just as much construction as in the 1990s, but that misses a big point. Household sizes keep getting smaller and smaller, so more houses are needed just to maintain a stable population. Furthermore, already built-out neighborhoods (Hawthorne, Horace Mann, etc.) will probably see more population declines in this decade similar to that of the 1990s. Moreover, the rate of international migration is much lower than what it was in the 1990s. Fargo, since Sept. 11, 2001, has seen much smaller numbers of refugees moving in than a decade ago. Finally, West Fargo, Horace, and Moorhead are picking off a lot more people now compared to the 1990s. Because of this, I'd be really surprised if the population of Fargo will exceed 100,000 by 2010.

[F-Misthebest]

Actually, as of the 2004 estimates, most of the older neighborhoods have either gained population or stayed the same.

http://www.cityoffargo.com/Residential/YourNeighborhood/KnowYourNeighborhood/

[Doc]

The Bison Block (http://www.bisonblock.com).

[Greco Roman]

Stumbled on to this link on a different board...

http://proximityone.com/msa06rnk.htm

Fargo is projected to grow at a rate of 24.42% from 2000-2020, the national average is 19.5%. They project Fargo(MSA) to be at 217,366(+42,662 from 2000). Not bad, #1 growth percentage in ND and #10 overall in the midwest.

Other MSAs...
Bismarck 23.46%
Sioux Falls 43.95% :worship: :worship:
Grand Forks -.23%


Is there any other reason, besides the flood of '97, why Grand Forks is continually losing population? I don't understand the reasons for Grand Forks and Fargo being so drastically different in growth rates yet so close in proximity.

[NanoBison]

I'm going hold back on this one ( I've been known to sourly flame Grand Forks before ) however I think the main reason is because they are two totally different towns with two totally different mindsets. Drive through them both one time and visit with the people there. You'll notice Fargo is a bit more professional and cosmopolitan. Fargo has a much larger technology and research business base. The Fargo airport is still able to heavily siphon off Grand Forks. There's way more stuff to do in Fargo. Fargo is only 3.5 hours away from the cities. Even though Grand Forks is a heavy college town (11,000+), the Fargo-Moorhead area has about 25,000 students attending three major universities and other higher education institutions. Fargo's got two interstates running through it. Grand Forks has one. Fargo is a DI town. Grand Forks is just taking the steps to attempt it. Fargo's got enough restaurants where you could eat somewhere different each day for at least a month and a half. Fargo's got the Fargodome and Grand Forks is stuck with the Alerus Center.

Fargo has Microsoft. :tup:
Pracs. Bobcat. Eide Bailly. Noridian. CaseIH. Marvin Windows. etc...

While people claim G.F. is growing just as fast as Fargo and point to their burgeoning 32nd Ave S retail corridor and new developments, I think population is simply shifting, and very little is in fact moving in. I know for a fact, that even though Grand Forks has a Super Target which is by FAR bigger than the one in Fargo, yet Fargo's does almost twice the business of the one in Grand Forks. Go there anytime after 5:00pm and you'll see why.

That's just the tip of the iceberg that I could come up with, without being harsh towards our neighbors to the North.

:yes:

[F-Misthebest]

Fargo School Board approves ice rental agreement with Urban Plains Center
Mike Nowatzki, The Forum
Published Friday, January 25, 2008

The Fargo School Board voted 8-1 this morning to approve a 15-year lease agreement with the Metro Sports Foundation for ice rental time at the Urban Plains Center.

The $25 million arena is scheduled to open Oct. 31, and foundation officials had said that construction could be halted if a deal wasn’t finalized by today.

Under the agreement, the school district will pay a fixed rate of $149 per hour for the first 300 hours of ice rental each year, instead of an annually escalating rate that would have been charged under the current lease agreement that the board approved in April.

As a result, the district will pay $810 less over the 15 years than it would under the current lease, according to projections in the agreement.

The district won’t pay any money to the foundation until the 5,000-seat arena is ready to use, the agreement states.

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/7721/urbanplainscenterisagoeb7.png


The foundation, which will operate the arena, will use the district’s commitment to secure about $500,000 in financing to help complete a $2 million commitment required by a consortium of banks to secure bonds for the project.

School Board member Don Faulkner cast the dissenting vote.

“They’re going to borrow based on this lease, and that makes me uncomfortable as part of this development process,” he said.

Foundation Vice President Al Hintz said the group still has to secure about $150,000 to $200,000 before Jan. 31 to meet the banks’ requirements and avoid stopping construction.

For more details, see Saturday's Forum.

[F-Misthebest]

I'm going hold back on this one ( I've been known to sourly flame Grand Forks before ) however I think the main reason is because they are two totally different towns with two totally different mindsets. Drive through them both one time and visit with the people there. You'll notice Fargo is a bit more professional and cosmopolitan. Fargo has a much larger technology and research business base. The Fargo airport is still able to heavily siphon off Grand Forks. There's way more stuff to do in Fargo. Fargo is only 3.5 hours away from the cities. Even though Grand Forks is a heavy college town (11,000+), the Fargo-Moorhead area has about 25,000 students attending three major universities and other higher education institutions. Fargo's got two interstates running through it. Grand Forks has one. Fargo is a DI town. Grand Forks is just taking the steps to attempt it. Fargo's got enough restaurants where you could eat somewhere different each day for at least a month and a half. Fargo's got the Fargodome and Grand Forks is stuck with the Alerus Center.

Fargo has Microsoft. :tup:
Pracs. Bobcat. Eide Bailly. Noridian. CaseIH. Marvin Windows. etc...

While people claim G.F. is growing just as fast as Fargo and point to their burgeoning 32nd Ave S retail corridor and new developments, I think population is simply shifting, and very little is in fact moving in. I know for a fact, that even though Grand Forks has a Super Target which is by FAR bigger than the one in Fargo, yet Fargo's does almost twice the business of the one in Grand Forks. Go there anytime after 5:00pm and you'll see why.

That's just the tip of the iceberg that I could come up with, without being harsh towards our neighbors to the North.

:yes:

100% agree. :tup:

[NanoBison]

I just caught glimpse of this article (http://argusleader.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080106/COLUMNISTS0104/801060338/1135/SPORTS05) from the Argus Leader (Sioux Falls, SD) written by Stu Whitney. In it he goes on to say :

If you look at surrounding Upper Midwest cities of lesser caliber (start with Sioux City, Iowa, and Fargo), there is no question we need a new stadium to brighten our future, and that we should be able to pay for it.

:hell:

I've gone ahead and sent him an email asking what he meant by that statement and what criteria he used to determine that result. While I have argued that the Fargo-Moorhead area is generally an overall better choice in determining where to live than Sioux Falls, I've never really bashed them to the point where I said it was of lesser caliber than Fargo-Moorhead. In my eyes both cities are very similar in size and growth, yet each have there own strengths and weaknesses. On the national scene they have about the same importance.

I'll post what Stu replies with including any other exchanges over email on this thread. It'll be interesting what he comes back with.

:tup:

[SmileyBoy]

I just caught glimpse of this article (http://argusleader.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080106/COLUMNISTS0104/801060338/1135/SPORTS05) from the Argus Leader (Sioux Falls, SD) written by Stu Whitney. In it he goes on to say :



:hell:

I've gone ahead and sent him an email asking what he meant by that statement and what criteria he used to determine that result. While I have argued that the Fargo-Moorhead area is generally an overall better choice in determining where to live than Sioux Falls, I've never really bashed them to the point where I said it was of lesser caliber than Fargo-Moorhead. In my eyes both cities are very similar in size and growth, yet each have there own strengths and weaknesses. On the national scene they have about the same importance.

I'll post what Stu replies with including any other exchanges over email on this thread. It'll be interesting what he comes back with.

:tup:

I thought that was a stupid comment as well. "Lesser caliber"??? Here's the facts:

F-M-WF-D-H Urban agglomerated population (2006 est): 168,000

Sioux Falls (No towns connecting its border - 2006 est): 150,000

So basically it's a guy writing for a newspaper thumbing his nose down at a city that has roughly 18,000 more people than his OWN city. (Note: These are urban area populations. The population difference of F-M and SF's metro area is razor thin. SF does have a larger surrounding pop. than F-M. I was just using it for my argument.)

But the fact that both F-M and Sioux Falls are so similar in size when you take into acount metro area, that no one can say one city is "lesser" than the other. Both F-M and Sioux Falls will continue to be in the same caliber of city for many years to come.

STUpid comment by him.

[sodak]

^Keep in mind that he was writing to a local audience trying to incite them into supporting the need for an events center. It's a typical and common argument. "If they have one, then we sure has hell can do it too..." I'm no fan of Stu Whitney (can't stand him actually), but let me tell you where I think he was coming from.

I will grant you that Fargo and Sioux Falls are very similar not only in population terms, but also in many demographic categories. We could go round and round on which city, urban area or metro has more people, but the point of his article and when people say those things is that Sioux Falls proper is larger than Fargo proper by around 50,000 people; and when you are discussing the financing of these types of facilities, it is the primary city that pays the tab. Fargo got it (events center) done many years ago, and it chaps a lot of asses that SF hasn't.

Take these comments in context, and try not to be so easily offended.

[SmileyBoy]

^Keep in mind that he was writing to a local audience trying to incite them into supporting the need for an events center. It's a typical and common argument. "If they have one, then we sure has hell can do it too..." I'm no fan of Stu Whitney (can't stand him actually), but let me tell you where I think he was coming from.

I will grant you that Fargo and Sioux Falls are very similar not only in population terms, but also in many demographic categories. We could go round and round on which city, urban area or metro has more people, but the point of his article and when people say those things is that Sioux Falls proper is larger than Fargo proper by around 50,000 people; and when you are discussing the financing of these types of facilities, it is the primary city that pays the tab. Fargo got it (events center) done many years ago, and it chaps a lot of asses that SF hasn't.

Take these comments in context, and try not to be so easily offended.

That's true, if you're taking city funding into account, SF has more resources, since you have 150,000 people and Fargo (proper) has 100,000. I would probably never say that one city of the two was more important than the other, since F-M and SF are so alike, and F-M is basically SF split into five pieces. But still, I take offense to his comment, in that he's putting F-M in a category with Sioux City (urban area: 100,000) and putting his city on a higher pedestal.

Sorry if I'm offended by it, I mean nothing against SF when I defend my city.

[NanoBison]

I'm no fan of Stu Whitney (can't stand him actually).....
Take these comments in context, and try not to be so easily offended.

Stu wouldn't by any chance be the Mike McFeely of the Argus Leader would he?

In terms of being offended, when you've got as much pride in your town as many do, it does strike a nerve. Don't get me wrong, I wasn't screaming at the top of my lungs, but at the same time, I've just got to know why he said "lesser caliber"....

It's along the same lines of that guy from Virginia (I think) that told his graduating class :

“My advice to you today: Work hard, believe in something, be passionate and be persistent in whatever you do or you will end up in Fargo,” Kane reportedly told the Marshall graduating class of 295.

“Yes, Fargo, North Dakota – the armpit of civilization. Why Fargo, you ask? Because, for me, Fargo, North Dakota, is the physical and spiritual symbol of what happens to you when you die inside.”

Just gets you slightly riled up inside.... :shrug:

Hopefully though, Stu replies to my email and gives some valid points.

[sodak]

I can understand defending your city. I was just trying to bring the context. Sioux Falls has so many infrastructure pressures (schools, roads, water) because of the rapid growth that it is hard to get the support for a "want" like an events center right now.

Stu Whitney is about as arrogant (for no evident reason) as you can get. He certainly wouldn't be my chosen mouthpiece for the Sioux Falls area. His reporting skills are mediocre at best, with his commentary skills somewhere on the low side of zero.

That quote from the Virginia guy was a bit rough, I hadn't heard that before.

[Paulyt23]

I think all of this mindless dribble concerning what the better city is: Fargo or Grand Forks is really pointless. So Fargo is bigger--so what? Seattle is bigger than Portland, but which is a nicer city to most people? Los Angeles is bigger than San Diego--and so on and so forth. In fact, no one really cares about which city is nicer outside of eastern North Dakota, and understandably so. In reality, I think the cities should be cooperating with each other if they want to get something important done. It's not a zero-sum game-- if Fargo wins; Grand Forks must be the loser and vice-versa. But that's how NanoBison and others on this site portray it, which seems to be an immature and uncritical way of looking at things.

Grand Forks has a med school, a law school, and an important environmental research facility. Fargo has nanotechnology, more financial firms, and of course, Microsoft. If anything these strengthen both cities and the entire region. Everyone on here talks about growth, but growth for what purposes? Growth is really a double-edged sword. What people ought to really be talking about is quality of life, not growth. If growth brings a better quality of life, than yes, it should be desired, but growth for its own sake is not something that really benefits a whole lot of people, and has brought a real decline in quality of life to many places around the country.

[NanoBison]

First of all Pauly, I'm going to take your response with a grain of salt. For someone who's only posted 13 times on this site since registering back in August, you're obviously someone who prefers to read and remain a silent voice than interact with the rest of the crowd. I do feel privileged though, considering I'm the only one you've responded to twice (possibly a third if you respond to this post). Anyways, on with my response to your soapboxing...

I think all of this mindless dribble concerning what the better city is: Fargo or Grand Forks is really pointless. So Fargo is bigger--so what? Seattle is bigger than Portland, but which is a nicer city to most people? Los Angeles is bigger than San Diego--and so on and so forth. In fact, no one really cares about which city is nicer outside of eastern North Dakota, and understandably so. In reality, I think the cities should be cooperating with each other if they want to get something important done. It's not a zero-sum game-- if Fargo wins; Grand Forks must be the loser and vice-versa. But that's how NanoBison and others on this site portray it, which seems to be an immature and uncritical way of looking at things.

It's far from mindless dribble and it's not pointless. If it was, the people in Grand Forks would shut up on the matter as well. Citizens of both cities have pride in their civil collection. So why do we compare each other? We'll, if you've ever been to an NDSU-UND game, you'll understand somewhat of the mindset of the area.

In terms of Los Angeles, San Diego, Portland and Seattle... I think you could pretty much say, anyone that doesn't live in the same states as those metropolitan areas really wouldn't care about what's going on in them. In fact, I could care less if California dropped off into the ocean. Portland is a beautiful city, but the only reason it concerns me is because I have family there. Seattle would be the most important to me, simply because Fargo has a strong link with it, being a branch of the software company is located here.

Thanks for reminding us, yet once again, because we certainly don't hear it enough, that NOBODY outside our region cares about us. (You're here aren't you?) ;)

So you think the cities should be cooperating with each other to get stuff they want huh? We'll I hate to break it to you, but that's just not the way it works in real life or business. If something is going to get built, such as a manufacturing plant or refinery, they aren't going to chop the thing in half and build one section in G.F. and one in Fargo. Typically, Grand Forks mentality is to screw over Fargo since we have so much success in the first place.

Here's a wonderful example of Grand Forks working with Fargo to get an edge. Instead of UND working with NDSU (both the economic engines of their fair cities) to help them get a larger chunk of state money for the schools, they decide to go and setup shop in Fargo by opening up UND Fargo which competes directly with NDSU and the other schools in the area. Instead they got the funding to do that project, while NDSU had to roll up it's sleeves and go ask directly for the money, in turn, pissing off numerous people. Furthermore we had to goto the SBoHE and ask that the school be closed due to duplication of services. It pissed off more people including state legislators. They close down and only one year later are back up and running. What a great relationship huh? Another prime example would be the Billboard for UND right as you enter the NDSU campus. That's really using cooperation to the best of THEIR abilities. We bring them the students to see THEIR advertisements.

Being that the cities are located 70 miles apart, what projects would you want them to work on? The only ones I can think of that would be logical, would be service based projects, such as Airport traffic, or other transportation matters. But tell you the truth I don't see the benefits of building a high speed rail train system to get people between the two cities, to their destinations faster.

The loss of airport traffic at Grand Forks, is due to an outside source. The airlines themselves have figured out people are willing to drive an hour to fly out of Fargo. Should we in turn go back to the Airlines and say "that's just not fair to G.F. or it's people, you should really consider opening up shop up at their airport". If you believe thats the noble thing to do you are highly naive. Not only does help Fargo, but it also brings more choices to the Fargo Airport for service.

Do I want Grand Forks to wither away? No. Do I like their city? No. I can't stand it or the attitudes of many of the folks there. But I'm smart enough to understand that if Grand Forks prospers that Fargo gets a residual off of that. But I'm not saying that we should go invest in Grand Forks and hope for a return. Money is a limited resource, so I believe that Fargo-Moorhead area should fight tooth and nail for any money it can get its hands on. If it means we are taking away from Grand Forks or any of the other cities in the state, so be it. It's business, not a family relationship you make it out to be. You can bet your bottom dollar that ANY relationship entered into with Grand Forks would have to be carefully drafted and reviewed since they would in the end, try to screw us over. It's always been the case.

Grand Forks has a med school, a law school, and an important environmental research facility. Fargo has nanotechnology, more financial firms, and of course, Microsoft. If anything these strengthen both cities and the entire region. Everyone on here talks about growth, but growth for what purposes? Growth is really a double-edged sword. What people ought to really be talking about is quality of life, not growth. If growth brings a better quality of life, than yes, it should be desired, but growth for its own sake is not something that really benefits a whole lot of people, and has brought a real decline in quality of life to many places around the country.

Grand Forks has a med school which has lately had problems with accreditation and in terms of budgetary issues, is a surprise they even stay open. That important research facility that mainly studies Coal and Hydrogen. Yep one of the filthiest sources of energy and the other; one of the most costliest.

Fargo also has a larger research/technology base and NDSU also has a larger research budget than UND. Not too mention, NDSU is now larger than UND in terms of student enrollments. The college of business will also have more resources when the new College of Business building is finished.

I agree with you completely 100% that growth is only good if it betters (or maintains... you forget) the quality of life. However, I don't think there's that much you can do to increase the chances of that, than by doing things such as trying to attract high-tech, research, medical, or manufacturing. Whereas I know Minot is infamous for attracting call centers that do NOTHING for the quality of life. But aside from those efforts, the quality of life more or less depends on the quality of the citizens there. I'd say Fargo-Moorhead AND Sioux Falls are pretty great places to live/work/grow up/etc. It's because of that good ol'e midwestern/great plains mentality of working hard and earning what you deserve. I'll go ahead and say it, sure Grand Forks is probably a nice place to live in terms of crime and safety, but I think you'll eventually get bored living there, unless you're a big hockey fan or an outdoors type person.

Finally, in terms of growth being good for the WHOLE of the people. That's simply an unrealistic expectation don't you think? Every addition to a city, whether it be a new library, a new elementary school, a new performing arts center, a university, a new high tech business start up or a city zoo, won't benefit EVERYBODY. That's just not possible. There's folks who use the internet for their research and reading so a library is pointless to them. There's folks who don't have children, yet even though they pay property taxes to fund the schools, they receive no benefit what-so-ever. A new performing arts center? Sure it raises the overall artistic appreciation of a city and the notion of the area as being appreciative of the arts, but the reality is, many people wouldn't be able to afford to go to the performances due to financial constraints.

While you say growth is a double edge sword, indicative of it possibly being evil, it's above all a necessary evil. If you have no growth, your city is dying and that is no spot a city wants to find themselves in.

:rolleyes:

[NanoBison]

I can understand defending your city. I was just trying to bring the context. Sioux Falls has so many infrastructure pressures (schools, roads, water) because of the rapid growth that it is hard to get the support for a "want" like an events center right now.

Stu Whitney is about as arrogant (for no evident reason) as you can get. He certainly wouldn't be my chosen mouthpiece for the Sioux Falls area. His reporting skills are mediocre at best, with his commentary skills somewhere on the low side of zero.

That quote from the Virginia guy was a bit rough, I hadn't heard that before.

I can totally understand and don't hold anything against you for doing so. :)

[rrskylar]

I'm going hold back on this one ( I've been known to sourly flame Grand Forks before ) however I think the main reason is because they are two totally different towns with two totally different mindsets. Drive through them both one time and visit with the people there. You'll notice Fargo is a bit more professional and cosmopolitan. Fargo has a much larger technology and research business base. The Fargo airport is still able to heavily siphon off Grand Forks. There's way more stuff to do in Fargo. Fargo is only 3.5 hours away from the cities. Even though Grand Forks is a heavy college town (11,000+), the Fargo-Moorhead area has about 25,000 students attending three major universities and other higher education institutions. Fargo's got two interstates running through it. Grand Forks has one. Fargo is a DI town. Grand Forks is just taking the steps to attempt it. Fargo's got enough restaurants where you could eat somewhere different each day for at least a month and a half. Fargo's got the Fargodome and Grand Forks is stuck with the Alerus Center.

Fargo has Microsoft. :tup:
Pracs. Bobcat. Eide Bailly. Noridian. CaseIH. Marvin Windows. etc...

While people claim G.F. is growing just as fast as Fargo and point to their burgeoning 32nd Ave S retail corridor and new developments, I think population is simply shifting, and very little is in fact moving in. I know for a fact, that even though Grand Forks has a Super Target which is by FAR bigger than the one in Fargo, yet Fargo's does almost twice the business of the one in Grand Forks. Go there anytime after 5:00pm and you'll see why.

That's just the tip of the iceberg that I could come up with, without being harsh towards our neighbors to the North.

:yes:



I think you also miss the fact that Grand Forks would not be able to support the number of retail stores and restaurants that city it's size offers if not for Winnipeg shoppers, Fargo on the other hand could support all of it's retail, restaurants etc. regardless of whether Canadian shoppers even came down there.

[NanoBison]

By the way folks, here is a new "largest home in fargo" going up. It's being built by one of the employees from Microsoft (Fargo Campus). Not it's not Doug Burgum, it's another employee. Anyways, it's rumored to be 20,000+ sqft (which would put it larger than the 18,000 sqft home in Rose Creek). It's also rumored to cost approximately 2.0-2.5 million (if not more), making it one of the most expensive homes in Fargo. I believe Ron Offut's (owner of RDO Equipment) abode is 1.7 million.

Anyways, here's an image and here's a website depicting the entire construction process....

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/2418/modelfrontbigtb4.jpg

http://www.fargoprairie.com/

:cool: Definitely glad to see stuff like this going up in the metropolitan area...

[SmileyBoy]

That new house looks awesome. Does anyone know the number of million-dollar homes currently in the F-M area?? I heard some years ago that it was a really low pathetic number, like 1 or 2. I know our city prides itself on its cost of living, but I would like to think there should be at least a couple really rich people here. Just for more economic diversity, I guess...

[Paulyt23]

I think you misunderstood my argument NanoBison, but that is my fault, not yours. Mindless dribble was probably exaggerating. It's really the tone, not the content, that gets trivial, but a lot times it's how something gets said rather than what is being said that leaves the biggest impression. I think all the rhetoric from Grand Forks gets pretty annoying as well. I'm not pro-Grand Forks and anti-Fargo. Believe me, other than Grand Forks having better urban design overall in the newer areas, I think the government in Grand Forks has made a lot more mistakes than Fargo's! However, I realize no one can be a totally disinterested observer.

In terms of cooperating rather than competing, the Red River Valley Research Corridor is one such example that should be strengthened. The two cities could also cooperate with renewal energy sources, organic food markets, and so on. I understand that a manufacturing firm cannot be divided in two, but there are other ways of economic development, real economic development, other than simply chasing smokestacks.

To be sure, the way the political system is set up now, one that relies on local property taxes and home rule, encourages competition rather than cooperation, but that doesn't mean it cannot be changed or reformed. Metro in Portland is such an example of a governance structure that enables cooperation in development and growth instead of the begger-thy-neighbor politics in most places. Even the Met Council in the Twin Cities, despite it being considerably weaker than the regional government in Portland, has done a lot to preserve inner-city neighborhoods and inner-ring suburbs. What is required are leaders that do not simply possess parochial viewpoints. Because of that, however, state involvement would probably be required at least to iniate something. But, both Grand Forks and Fargo should build on their strengths they already have rather than trying to reinvent the wheel.

In terms of no one caring about Grand Forks or Fargo, it's true, but that doesn't mean it should be that way. On the other hand, hundreds of scholarly and popular books and articles have been written about Portland because innovative things are happening there. But that doesn't mean the same won't be true of Fargo or Grand Forks if good leadership can be tapped into.

Regarding growth not benefiting everyone, you have a point but I have to disagree with you specifically about public education. Yes, singles, childless couples and retirees who don't have children in the system have to pay school taxes regardless, but it does benefit them, greatly. Having an educated workforce raises the standard of living for everyone. Just look at Mississippi, Alabama and other southern states that don't spend much money on education, and then compare them to Minnesota, Iowa, and California who do. It's not an accident that Silicon Valley emerged in California which has had the best higher-education system in the country up to this point and not Alabama or Louisiana. Similarly it's no accident that Minnesota has the 5th highest median income in the nation and lowest poverty rate among states over 1 million. It's the same for countries: South Korea and Taiwan versus Mexico and Brazil. South Korea is wealthier than England now because of its emphasis on education. In the end, yes public education is expensive, but it pays for itself many times over and it's a lot cheaper than sending kids to prison!

To sum up, yes, I haven't posted much on this site, but I'm not real big on spending a lot of time on-line. We all have other lives to live. I think the site is interesting (or else I wouldn't even be on here), but like I said, sometimes the dialogue seems rather immature and uncritical. Maybe I'm just on the wrong site!

[F-Misthebest]

Panchero's Mexican Grill is opening a location in Mallard Creek Commons in south Moorhead, if no one knew that.
http://www.pancheros.com/index.php

[Paulyt23]

Adding a few more things, I really don't think Fargo and Grand Forks are 'totally different towns." This is from having lived in Chicago, Des Moines, New York, and Albany, NY. Both are university towns that also revolve heavily around agriculture...yes still, like it or not. Both are nearly all white. Both have very low levels of crime, poverty, and etc. Neither has slums. They're both trade centers. They're even politically alike with Grand Forks being slightly more Democratic than Fargo. And I really think (even though being from Grand Forks) that Fargo's growth benefits Grand Forks, and vice-versa. NanoBison your comment about money being scarce and limited. That's not really true. Oil is scarce (and finite), but money is not. There isn't a money "pie" that gets divided up. Instead, wealth is created, and gets created everyday by investments and innovations. I'm glad that NDSU is doing well. It benefits everyone, not just Fargo. If the airline industry ever gets rolling again, maybe UND can get more students again! Grand Fork's win is not Fargo's loss and vice-versa. I guess the whole Bison/Sioux mentality fogs people's rationality.

[SmileyBoy]

Adding a few more things, I really don't think Fargo and Grand Forks are 'totally different towns." This is from having lived in Chicago, Des Moines, New York, and Albany, NY. Both are university towns that also revolve heavily around agriculture...yes still, like it or not. Both are nearly all white. Both have very low levels of crime, poverty, and etc. Neither has slums. They're both trade centers. They're even politically alike with Grand Forks being slightly more Democratic than Fargo. And I really think (even though being from Grand Forks) that Fargo's growth benefits Grand Forks, and vice-versa. NanoBison your comment about money being scarce and limited. That's not really true. Oil is scarce (and finite), but money is not. There isn't a money "pie" that gets divided up. Instead, wealth is created, and gets created everyday by investments and innovations. I'm glad that NDSU is doing well. It benefits everyone, not just Fargo. If the airline industry ever gets rolling again, maybe UND can get more students again! Grand Fork's win is not Fargo's loss and vice-versa. I guess the whole Bison/Sioux mentality fogs people's rationality.


I will have to wholeheartedly disagree with you on this one. I have been to Grand Forks many times (I usually go there 3-4 times per year), and I currently live in Fargo. There are many, many differences between the two that I can think of. The fact alone that Fargo-Moorhead has three times as many people as Grand Forks means that there won't be many similarities. Demographics (F-M is far more diverse), transportation (I have never seen a city bus driving on the streets of GF, also F-M has an established freeway system while GF has none) and business (There's a LOT more office parks in F-M) are a few things I can think of.

And I also have to disagree with your statement that GF's newer urban areas look nicer. There is a far more diverse architectural landscape in F-M. I drove by the newer developments in GF last fall, and the housing and new strip malls looked a lot more bland than in Fargo. There's more expirimentation with decoration and materials in F-M's development projects. The newer strip malls I saw on 32nd in GF looked really plain.

It seems that the excuse from people in Grand Forks is that Fargo and GF are basically the same kind of place. And I think that couldn't be further than the truth. Grand Forks people drive thru F-M and see we have the same basic services as GF and assume that both places are the same. Just because you saw a Quizno's on 32nd Ave. in GF and you saw another Quizno's on 32nd Ave. in Fargo doesn't mean both cities are twins. Fargo-Moorhead-West Fargo-Dilworth-Horace is an entirely different phenomenon than Grand Forks-East Grand Forks.

Here's a kind of obscure example: Grand Forks mooches off the Fargo-based TV stations (KVLY, KXJB, KVRR) so that the local news and weather reports have to include Grand Forks stuff in it, and include commercials for Grand Forks businesses. If we were so alike, Grand Forks would have their own CBS, FOX and NBC station.

In the end, I just wish people in ND would realize that Fargo is a different kind of place than anywhere else in the state. There's nothing wrong with the other places. but as soon as people realize it, our city will have the cultural freedom to accomplish our goal as being a more important player in the national scene.

[F-Misthebest]

By the way folks, here is a new "largest home in fargo" going up. It's being built by one of the employees from Microsoft (Fargo Campus). Not it's not Doug Burgum, it's another employee. Anyways, it's rumored to be 20,000+ sqft (which would put it larger than the 18,000 sqft home in Rose Creek). It's also rumored to cost approximately 2.0-2.5 million (if not more), making it one of the most expensive homes in Fargo. I believe Ron Offut's (owner of RDO Equipment) abode is 1.7 million.

Anyways, here's an image and here's a website depicting the entire construction process....

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/2418/modelfrontbigtb4.jpg

http://www.fargoprairie.com/

:cool: Definitely glad to see stuff like this going up in the metropolitan area...

Do you, by any chance, know where it is going to be built. I assume south Fargo on the river. It looks very nice.

I remember a couple of years ago, ABC News did a segment on million dollar homes in the Fargo-Moorhead area. Since then, more have been built.

[wilson]

I will have to wholeheartedly disagree with you on this one. I have been to Grand Forks many times (I usually go there 3-4 times per year), and I currently live in Fargo. There are many, many differences between the two that I can think of. The fact alone that Fargo-Moorhead has three times as many people as Grand Forks means that there won't be many similarities. Demographics (F-M is far more diverse), transportation (I have never seen a city bus driving on the streets of GF, also F-M has an established freeway system while GF has none) and business (There's a LOT more office parks in F-M) are a few things I can think of.

And I also have to disagree with your statement that GF's newer urban areas look nicer. There is a far more diverse architectural landscape in F-M. I drove by the newer developments in GF last fall, and the housing and new strip malls looked a lot more bland than in Fargo. There's more expirimentation with decoration and materials in F-M's development projects. The newer strip malls I saw on 32nd in GF looked really plain.

It seems that the excuse from people in Grand Forks is that Fargo and GF are basically the same kind of place. And I think that couldn't be further than the truth. Grand Forks people drive thru F-M and see we have the same basic services as GF and assume that both places are the same. Just because you saw a Quizno's on 32nd Ave. in GF and you saw another Quizno's on 32nd Ave. in Fargo doesn't mean both cities are twins. Fargo-Moorhead-West Fargo-Dilworth-Horace is an entirely different phenomenon than Grand Forks-East Grand Forks.

Here's a kind of obscure example: Grand Forks mooches off the Fargo-based TV stations (KVLY, KXJB, KVRR) so that the local news and weather reports have to include Grand Forks stuff in it, and include commercials for Grand Forks businesses. If we were so alike, Grand Forks would have their own CBS, FOX and NBC station.

In the end, I just wish people in ND would realize that Fargo is a different kind of place than anywhere else in the state. There's nothing wrong with the other places. but as soon as people realize it, our city will have the cultural freedom to accomplish our goal as being a more important player in the national scene.

I would say you guys are both right and wrong. From an outsiders view, and as a broader view, yes Grand Forks and Fargo are similar towns. Having said that, as someone who lived near GF for 17 years, and lived in Fargo for 8, I know there is a BIG difference between them, when you get down to the details. The mentality of the towns are very different, there is a different attitude in each place, for sure. But, that's how it is everywhere. As for people in ND, and our immediate surrounding area, I hope they realize how different they are. As for the rest of the country, I know they don't care, and that's not gonna really change in the near future.

[matthew2109]

Do you, by any chance, know where it is going to be built. I assume south Fargo on the river. It looks very nice.

I remember a couple of years ago, ABC News did a segment on million dollar homes in the Fargo-Moorhead area. Since then, more have been built.

Yeah im curious as to where this is gonna be built too?? I was thinking more along the lines in West SouthWest Fargo.

[JoeJoe]

Wow.
Goodness, there is some flaming going on with the whole comparison thing. One thing I'll throw in for got measure... there are about 70 miles of mostly open fields between Fargo and GF. While some other locales mentioned are of similar size, with the Twin Cities you could say its about 40-70 miles across (that is a very rough estimate of course), those areas are full of urban and suburban development - the Red River Valley isn't. The two towns are physically too separate to be grouped together, that'd be like grouping Fargo and Bismarck together.

Also if you want to paint with that wide of a brush, then couldn't you say that New York and Chicago are similar towns? Close in size, close in demographics, and hey - they both have skyscrapers. ;)

Not taking sides... just sayin'
Maybe we should go back to restraint on comparing cities and focus on the UP Center, or the new Library, or the $150 million in infrastructure projects, or the 52nd Ave corridor, or the multitude of other development stuff going on in Fargo-Moorhead?
That's the primary function of this thread? Yes, no?
:D

[F-Misthebest]

Yes!

[matthew2109]

So whats the hot gossip on the 52nd Ave S corridor?? And when is the city gonna pave 32nd Ave from 45th St S into West Fargo?? And any news on the 9th Center overpass over I-94?

[SmileyBoy]

I found a big interactive map of Urban Plains Phase I:

http://www.upfargo.com/available_land.html

[SmileyBoy]

So whats the hot gossip on the 52nd Ave S corridor?? And when is the city gonna pave 32nd Ave from 45th St S into West Fargo?? And any news on the 9th Center overpass over I-94?

52nd Ave. South is going to be completely rebuilt this summer from 25th Street to 45th Street (it's either 4 lanes or 6 lanes), including new interchanges at I-29. I've seen that the construction crews are already itching to start excavating at the Wal-Mart/Costco/SuperTarget sites, they're just waiting for road construction to begin.

The 57th Street overpass over I-94 will be built this summer as well, with 4-lane paving on 57th going from just north of I-94 (connecting to 9th Street in WF) down to 32nd Ave., and 32nd Ave. will be paved 4-lane from 57th Street back to 45th Street.

The bad news is that the interchange at 57th/I-94 won't be built for a LOOONG time, since West Fargo is being cheap cheap cheap. Which is sad, because that area would EXPLODE with commercial development if an interchange was built there.

Also, for some stupid reason, 45th Street south of 32nd Avenue still won't be twinned this summer. I can't imagine how many cars on that road end up in the ditch, since that road is basically built on a man-made ridge. The fact that that section of road gets heavy traffic is just another recipe for disaster. That road connects Osgood/Sincebaugh, Edgewood Village and Woodhaven to the development further north on 45th, and a LOT of people drive on it daily.

[ajackace]

Yeah im curious as to where this is gonna be built too?? I was thinking more along the lines in West SouthWest Fargo.

Here is what I know...it's being built on the west side of the Osgood golf course (hole #7 would be it's backyard essentially), on one of the corners/cul-de-sacs of Furnberg Place street. Not a very private spot if you ask me for a house like this, but I guess no neighbors in the back (other than golfers) would be nice.

Someone earlier on this thread said it was a 20,000 sq. foot house, which I highly doubt. I've driven by it and looked at the website about it quite a bit. I think even 10,000 square feet would be stretching it by a long ways...it's going to be a beautiful home, but it will be no-where near the largest home in the area by any means.

[NanoBison]

Yeah im curious as to where this is gonna be built too?? I was thinking more along the lines in West SouthWest Fargo.

If you guys goto the website for that house

http://www.fargoprairie.com/

they have the site plans and address... but if you're too anxious to
go back to the site and look, here's the address to the location on
Google maps....

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&hl=en&geocode=&saddr=&daddr=46.816046,-96.894243&mra=mi&mrsp=0&sz=17&sll=46.815795,-96.893605&sspn=0.005991,0.010471&ie=UTF8&t=h&z=17&om=0

(Yes, I know, a Microsoft employee using Google products *shudders*)... j/k

The house is located off the 7th hole Green in the Osgood Golf Course on Furnberg Place. There's nothing on the map yet, but the foundation has been poured and the structural wooden frame is starting to go up...

:tup:

[NanoBison]

Here is what I know...it's being built on the west side of the Osgood golf course (hole #7 would be it's backyard essentially), on one of the corners/cul-de-sacs of Furnberg Place street. Not a very private spot if you ask me for a house like this, but I guess no neighbors in the back (other than golfers) would be nice.

Someone earlier on this thread said it was a 20,000 sq. foot house, which I highly doubt. I've driven by it and looked at the website about it quite a bit. I think even 10,000 square feet would be stretching it by a long ways...it's going to be a beautiful home, but it will be no-where near the largest home in the area by any means.

I'm the one who said those things... like I said, "don't quote me on it..." since I said they were practically rumors and just what I've heard. Of course we'll have to wait until the thing is finished, but under the descriptions of rooms in the house, some of them are larger than my three bedroom apartment.

I think it's safe to assume, with the amount of custom work, materials, brick and stone, ... it will still be one of the more expensive homes in the metropolitan area...

[NanoBison]

Also, for some stupid reason, 45th Street south of 32nd Avenue still won't be twinned this summer. I can't imagine how many cars on that road end up in the ditch, since that road is basically built on a man-made ridge. The fact that that section of road gets heavy traffic is just another recipe for disaster. That road connects Osgood/Sincebaugh, Edgewood Village and Woodhaven to the development further north on 45th, and a LOT of people drive on it daily.

Actually the City of Fargo just recently held or is planning to hold citizen group meetings to determine whether or not to simply 4-lane the roadway or if it would be wiser and more economical in the long run to 6 lanes the entire stretch from Famous Dave's all the way down to 52nd Ave S. Personally, being one of the folks that drives that road every morning and evening, I'd like to see it go 6 lanes, so we don't have the issues that are plaguing 32nd Ave S right now...

[NanoBison]

..Maybe we should go back to restraint on comparing cities and focus on the UP Center, or the new Library, or the $150 million in infrastructure projects, or the 52nd Ave corridor, or the multitude of other development stuff going on in Fargo-Moorhead?
That's the primary function of this thread? Yes, no?
:D

I think when we've got people coming here asking for people to describe the differences between the two towns, that we should just point them to the Grand Forks Life Blogspot and petition to have those kind folks start a Grand Forks thread on here....


:D

[SmileyBoy]

I think when we've got people coming here asking for people to describe the differences between the two towns, that we should just point them to the Grand Forks Life Blogspot and petition to have those kind folks start a Grand Forks thread on here....


:D

Can you imagine what would happen if Grand Forks people settled onto this forum???

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/226/506519977_31dfc78054.jpg

[Paulyt23]

Though I think the newer developments in Fargo are improving, they aren't going far enough. The newer areas still have this helter-skelter appearance to them that isn't as present in Sioux Falls or Grand Forks, although Grand Forks' appearance, regrettably, has declined since John O'Leary, the trained sociologist and director of urban development, left a few years back. So now Grand Forks' appearance is digressing while Fargo's is improving. I think if Fargo could get rid some of their billboards and enact sinage height limits it would do a lot to make city look nicer. If the Woodhaven development, however, is any sign of the future growth patterns of Fargo, I think the city will drop on the list of the least-visually stimulating cities in the country.

[matthew2109]

Wal-Mart/Costco/SuperTarget sites

Are all these confirmed for the The District SmileyBoy??

[SmileyBoy]

Are all these confirmed for the The District SmileyBoy??

Wal-Mart and I believe Lowes are planned for The District, and SuperTarget and Costco both want to build in the development across the street on the north side.

[NanoBison]

I was going to post the response I received back from Stu Whitney today. However, he has asked me not to and I've decided I won't since it was brief, naive and insulting.

[NanoBison]

Though I think the newer developments in Fargo are improving, they aren't going far enough. The newer areas still have this helter-skelter appearance to them that isn't as present in Sioux Falls or Grand Forks, although Grand Forks' appearance, regrettably, has declined since John O'Leary, the trained sociologist and director of urban development, left a few years back. So now Grand Forks' appearance is digressing while Fargo's is improving. I think if Fargo could get rid some of their billboards and enact sinage height limits it would do a lot to make city look nicer. If the Woodhaven development, however, is any sign of the future growth patterns of Fargo, I think the city will drop on the list of the least-visually stimulating cities in the country.

If I had enough money I would get rid of all the damn billboards. I'd also get rid of the power lines. Ugliest damn things in the area. At some points that's the only thing you see, while driving on the road.

[BigTicket]

I'll go along with Nano. Quote and my response deleted. I will agree that McFeely is twice the journalist Whitney thinks he is.