CHICAGO | General Developments

[ardecila]

Hold up! The closure of Milwaukee is only ONE of the things that they are investigating. For example, there are curb bump-outs shown in the rendering I posted, which should act to slow traffic and make the crosswalks less frightening. These can be built regardless of whether Milwaukee is closed or not. Another idea under consideration is to re-pave portions of the intersection with "rough" materials, like cast brick or pavers, to slow traffic.

Mr Downtown - Blue Island has also been cut off at Cermak for a plaza, to my dismay.

[Ch.G, Ch.G]

At risk of being labeled a car-loving, solar system-destroying NIMBY, I want to say that this closure of a major thoroughfare looks like an absolutely idiotic idea to me. It's going to create an insane nuisance for very little benefit, in my opinion.

I thought you were content to destroy the earth? ;) But I agree. It seems like it would be a misplaced use of resources.

This one?
http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/7110/249069gb5.jpg

Yeah, that's the one! As always, you are true to your name, spyguy. Thank you! :tup: My biggest complaint is the tint of the glazing. I also wish the roofline were uniform but am otherwise pretty fond of it; it's a real good effort, IMO, especially compared to most of the postmodern garbage that goes up at this scale. Do you know the name of the development, spyguy?

Also, that's the first time I've ever heard of the other development you posted. Do you know what it's replacing, if anything?

[headcase]

The FedEx building on Division by Studio Dwell is also quite nice and different from everything else around it.
----[/QUOTE]

Yeah, 1711 W Division is the address I think, is a pretty solid building.

SSDD

[Jibba]

Anyone catch the Fox News special report tonight about illegal billboards? It was minorly informative and entertaining. They synchronized a clip of Chicago Place with the narrators comment about "world-class architecture". Likely just the way it timed out and not a deliberate correlation, but I thought it was humorous. Reilly is interviewed at length. Video can be found here (http://www.myfoxchicago.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail?contentId=8203994&version=2&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=VSTY&pageId=1.1.1) for those that are interested.

[VivaLFuego]

Some where for the best (Ogden Ave in Lincoln Park). Stuff like this though just seems like a shortsighted alderman pet project.

In exchange for removing Ogden, North Avenue was widened, taking the entire north side of the street and ergo half of a commercial/retail stretch that would today be an incredible extension of Old Town. Instead, the entire northern side of North Avenue, from North Park all the way to Halsted is, for all intents and purposes, blight. And once the condemnation parade started, it extended up Larrabee, further consuming a mixed-use street (think comparable to Sedgwick with scattered neighborhood commercial including the beloved Tap Root Inn) to be replaced by the worst suburban-style front-driveway schlock.

While the Ogden ROW was filled in with a few very interesting modernist-style plazas that are curiously enjoyable, tranquil, and unique spaces, I'd trade those and the bland 70s townhomes filling in the rest of the Ogden ROW back in an instant for an un-butchered North Avenue.

[Dr. Taco]

Anyone catch the Fox News special report tonight about illegal billboards? It was minorly informative and entertaining. They synchronized a clip of Chicago Place with the narrators comment about "world-class architecture". Likely just the way it timed out and not a deliberate correlation, but I thought it was humorous. Reilly is interviewed at length. Video can be found here (http://www.myfoxchicago.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail?contentId=8203994&version=2&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=VSTY&pageId=1.1.1) for those that are interested.

^ I hate government

"we fine them 500 ten times a month, and they still make 45,000 a month from ad revenue. SO, us benevolent politicians will vote to raise the fine to 10,000 dollars"

Good job, government, keeping the world safe, five hundred more laws at a time



Concerning this Milwaukee/Ashland/Division stuff, don't shut down Milwaukee anywhere. If anything, shut down Ashland and see what happens... mwa ha ha or something. but seriously. extend the triangle west instead of north. Seems to work well enough in a slightly similar condition going east on armitage (where it gets cut off around the river)

[denizen467]

Cottage Grove through McCormick Place
..which Google (Maps) still fails to understand..

[ardecila]

^ I hate government

"we fine them 500 ten times a month, and they still make 45,000 a month from ad revenue. SO, us benevolent politicians will vote to raise the fine to 10,000 dollars"

Good job, government, keeping the world safe, five hundred more laws at a time

Instead of fining these people, can't we send in some policemen? A few well-published examples of cops ripping down signs ought to reduce the problem, although like any highly-profitable, illegal venture, it will continue. Fortunately, advertising by its very nature has to be out in the open, so it can't go on secretly.

What may kill it is increased legalization of ads in other places; buses, trains, stations, bathrooms, restaurants, cell phones, etc. As the opportunities for legal advertising grow, the demand and hence the profitability of the illegal ads will erode quickly.

[emathias]

Anyone catch the Fox News special report tonight about illegal billboards? It was minorly informative and entertaining. They synchronized a clip of Chicago Place with the narrators comment about "world-class architecture". Likely just the way it timed out and not a deliberate correlation, but I thought it was humorous. Reilly is interviewed at length. Video can be found here (http://www.myfoxchicago.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail?contentId=8203994&version=2&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=VSTY&pageId=1.1.1) for those that are interested.

The increased fine is a travesty. Part of the law should have forced the City to actually consider sign applications, which currently it doesn't do. You can apply for a permit and just never hear back.

I think Reilly is going to find out that a lot of his constiutents may not want signs on Michigan and State, but actually profit from signs in other areas. Any residential building with a sign will have lower costs. Any commerical building with signs, too. The condo association i lead has built almost a six-figure war chest with a large chunk of that coming from new billboard revenue. Before that we had almost constant special assessments to repair things - that's 14 individual unit owners with direct personal economic gain from one billboard. I know we're not alone by a long shot.

[Mr Downtown]

In exchange for removing Ogden, North Avenue was widened, taking the entire north side of the street

But let's be fair. This was an urban renewal conservation effort, an honest attempt to keep Old Town from deteriorating further. Instead of scraping the area clean, as at Sandburg Village, Taylor-Canal, or Lake Meadows, they followed the successful Hyde Park approach of selective demolition and land assembly. In hindsight, it's easy to jeer and say they didn't need to do nuthin, but that wasn't at all apparent at the time.

[BWChicago]

Concerning this Milwaukee/Ashland/Division stuff, don't shut down Milwaukee anywhere. If anything, shut down Ashland and see what happens... mwa ha ha or something. but seriously. extend the triangle west instead of north. Seems to work well enough in a slightly similar condition going east on armitage (where it gets cut off around the river)

What about where Milwaukee runs through Logan Square? Anyone have thoughts on that? To me it seems like it would be less confusing without Milwaukee.

[emathias]

What about where Milwaukee runs through Logan Square? Anyone have thoughts on that? To me it seems like it would be less confusing without Milwaukee.

I wish they'd make it into a real roundabout.

[Dr. Taco]

What about where Milwaukee runs through Logan Square? Anyone have thoughts on that? To me it seems like it would be less confusing without Milwaukee.

I DONT think they should mess around too much with a sacred diagonal street ;) It's funny, because if you're on milwaukee and you drive past that intersection, you are completely oblivious to the giant mess around you. But I think the best thing for this case is:

I wish they'd make it into a real roundabout.

:cool:

the only concern being, are you making SE-headed milwaukeens go too far out of their way with a roundabout?

[Mr Downtown]

It's too large to be an efficient roundabout, so it would end up being a nasty traffic circle with signals like Dupont Circle--which became so intolerable that Connecticut had to be tunneled underneath.

[BWChicago]

I'd be for the roundabout idea, except then how would you get to the square?

[spyguy]

http://www.chicagorealestatedaily.com/cgi-bin/page.pl?id=2166

Chicago: Milwaukee Ave. Commercial Building, 1480-82 N. Milwaukee Ave., 20,542 square-foot commercial building, April 2009, $2.5 million.

---
This replaces the vacant Burger King. Chicago Journal had this image:
http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/8320/5187ayj6.jpg

[lawfin]

http://www.chicagorealestatedaily.com/cgi-bin/page.pl?id=2166

Chicago: Milwaukee Ave. Commercial Building, 1480-82 N. Milwaukee Ave., 20,542 square-foot commercial building, April 2009, $2.5 million.

---
This replaces the vacant Burger King. Chicago Journal had this image:
http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/8320/5187ayj6.jpg

wow.....that is almost worse than a vacant building

[Jibba]

^No way. That BK was such a P.O.S., and this new development is great if only for the fact that I will never have to lay eyes on that pile ever again.

Really, though, the design above is a little, um, uninspired. aic4ever is working on the project, I believe (he works with Centaur, IIRC). Maybe he can provide information regarding the tenant mix and the layout of the retail space when that info. becomes available (and if he is allowed to divulge that information). Overall, I am glad that something is being developed there--I would hate to still have that Burger King rotting away until eternity or a vacant lot blighting up the wonderful pedestrian strip there. The Walgreen's just down the way is set to go sometime soon, too, so that stretch of Milwaukee from Damen all the way to Ashland will soon be a completely seamless streetscape (save for the Jewel).

[Mr Downtown]

I just hope that Burger King can become one of the new tenants. I like being able to get something affordable to eat in the park.

[Jibba]

^I wouldn't mind that at all. In case you were insinuating anything to the contrary: I was not making any judgments as to the quality of the tenant of the now-leveled property, be it the quality of the product they sold or otherwise (although, to be honest, the quality of a BK meal is not the greatest, but it is reasonably priced).

I certainly cannot afford to eat out at many of the places in Wicker Park/Bucktown, and I definitely agree that there is a need for more reasonably-priced eateries. However, I am not sad that the BK is no more because the design was crap--yet another fast-food development that paid no mind to the design scheme of the neighborhood it located to, replete with automobile drive-through accommodation. So I will mourn the loss of Swank Frank, but I will not shed a single tear for Burger King.

[MrLakepoint]

wow.....that is almost worse than a vacant building

Across the street on the Northwest Corner is where they filmed John Cusack's "High Fidelity" record store. I would like to see anything put up there where the Burger King use to be. Such a great area now and they need something that doesnt look like a war zone (vacant buildings) right there.

[lawfin]

^^^The single story use seems a far less than optimal land use...that is my problem with this proposal

[MrLakepoint]

:previous: I got ya, I hear you loud and clear. I would always like to see some 3 or 4 story mixed use but sometimes when they do an area check they find that it may not be feasible to put something more than a single story building.

[aic4ever]

..

[Jibba]

^Thank you for providing those details. My comment about the design being "uninspired" mostly stems from what I was able to glean of the design from the rendering--obviously this is not a good way to gauge what the look and feel of the design in real space is going to be. Those shops on Damen are sort of hit and miss for me: some of the spaces (like Intermix) are a pleasing mixture of materials that convey the appropriate look of boutique space. Others, however, such as LeSportsac, look a little bit contrived and deliberately contemporary. None-the-less, the spaces are all inviting from a retailing standpoint, and the description you provided of what is to come at the old BK site sounds promising. Certainly better than the hack-jobs that a lot of the newer infill retail sites have been.

[ChicagoChicago]

http://www.chicagorealestatedaily.com/cgi-bin/page.pl?id=2166

Chicago: Milwaukee Ave. Commercial Building, 1480-82 N. Milwaukee Ave., 20,542 square-foot commercial building, April 2009, $2.5 million.

---
This replaces the vacant Burger King. Chicago Journal had this image:
http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/8320/5187ayj6.jpg

Impressive building there!!! :hell:

Could they have been any less creative? Is this Schaumburg?

[Nowhereman1280]

^^^ Hahaha, really? Are you going to get that upset about that design? Its not horrible and certainly better than most of what you would find in Schaumberg simply because it fills out the lot and faces the street.

I wish they wouldn't require the buildings to look like they have been there forever, it really defeats what makes Chicago great, our diversity in Architectural design. If someone wanted to build a glass cube there, why would we wanna stop them?

[ChicagoChicago]

^^^ Hahaha, really? Are you going to get that upset about that design? Its not horrible and certainly better than most of what you would find in Schaumberg simply because it fills out the lot and faces the street.

I wish they wouldn't require the buildings to look like they have been there forever, it really defeats what makes Chicago great, our diversity in Architectural design. If someone wanted to build a glass cube there, why would we wanna stop them?

Perhaps I just like to see architects dust off their thinking caps. This thing looks like it was designed by a high schooler for his technical drafting class. And single story….yawn.

[Ch.G, Ch.G]

aic4ever, thanks for the insight into the process. This part surprised me, though:

Bucktown is a landmarked area in general now, so the buildings need to go through Landmarks for approval on the design, which so far has had the tendency to mean that they want the buildings, from the outside, to look like they've always been there, and then been renovated, a-la 1627.

If this is true, then how did the developments we've recently been discussing (Urban Sandbox, etc.) get the green light? They hardly look like they've "always been there."

About the actual design, I really like this component:

...an old style steel and glass facade for the corner. The steel will be riveted and pieced together in a manner to match the steel of the L tracks behind the building.

The two brick facades, on the other hand, I could do without. Interesting brickwork and traditional forms are not incompatible...

[Ch.G, Ch.G]

And single story….yawn.

Did you not read the explanation provided for why it is only single storey? Greater height here is a casualty of the economy.

[Mr Downtown]

Bucktown is a landmarked area in general now

To clarify, "Bucktown" is not a landmark district. However, Milwaukee (and parts of North and Damen) are a relatively new district:

Milwaukee Avenue District, predominately the 1200 through 1600 blocks of N. Milwaukee Ave., the 1500 block of N. Damen Ave., and the 1900 and 2000 blocks of W. North Ave. ca. 1877-1929; various architects.

The designation was only approved in April 2008 (http://egov.cityofchicago.org/city/webportal/portalContentItemAction.do?blockName=Planning+And+Development%2f2008%2fI+Want+To&deptMainCategoryOID=-536884816&channelId=0&programId=0&entityName=Planning+And+Development&topChannelName=Dept&contentOID=536978595&Failed_Reason=Invalid+timestamp,+engine+has+been+restarted&contenTypeName=COC_EDITORIAL&com.broadvision.session.new=Yes&Failed_Page=%2fwebportal%2fportalContentItemAction.do&context=dept), which is why earlier projects did not require Landmarks review.

[Abner]

But let's be fair. This was an urban renewal conservation effort, an honest attempt to keep Old Town from deteriorating further. Instead of scraping the area clean, as at Sandburg Village, Taylor-Canal, or Lake Meadows, they followed the successful Hyde Park approach of selective demolition and land assembly. In hindsight, it's easy to jeer and say they didn't need to do nuthin, but that wasn't at all apparent at the time.

Interested parties can find plenty of information on the history of Ogden (and photos) at http://forgottenchicago.com/ogden.php . The author has a particular point of view, but one interesting point is that the widening of North Ave. into an auto sewer was at best a non sequitur to the removal of Ogden, and if anything actually went against the stated reasons for removal.

Is/was Ogden the only major diagonal street to run in the "wrong" direction, i.e. not toward downtown?

[lawfin]

Did you not read the explanation provided for why it is only single storey? Greater height here is a casualty of the economy.

I am very aware of the market effects, so please tone down the indignant chastisement. Given the economic downturn retail / commercial development is hardly a safe call either, there are undoubtly economic pressures to get this parcel generating income for the owner asap.....I just think this use is short sighted and perhaps incorrect, given that retail may be in for a very hard landing over the next 12 - 18 month and perhaps longer.

On a corner such as this despite, I think it is honore???, not being a "major" corner, corners to me command a special treatment that this design simply does not meet. I believe the zoning here is b3-2, which allows for close to a 50ft building max I think, enough for 5 stories certainly 4 stories


The best treatment may be to wait out this downturn....off course as I noted above there are undoubtly pressures that we are unaware off that may be forcing the owner's hand.....what ever this design is...it is unfortunate

[ChicagoChicago]

Did you not read the explanation provided for why it is only single storey? Greater height here is a casualty of the economy.

I read what was posted. I just have a real problem with the idea that as a result of the economy, completely uninspired and equally unimpressive buildings are being approved and erected JUST for the sake of development. So the guy wants to make some money on his lot. How about he tears down the empty BK and turn it into a parking lot for $.25 an hour? It sure beats building an inferior structure just for the sake of getting something off the ground. Sometimes, nothing is better than anything.

[Ch.G, Ch.G]

I am very aware of the market effects, so please tone down the indignant chastisement. Given the economic downturn retail / commercial development is hardly a safe call either, there are undoubtly economic pressures to get this parcel generating income for the owner asap.....I just think this use is short sighted and perhaps incorrect, given that retail may be in for a very hard landing over the next 12 - 18 month and perhaps longer.

On a corner such as this despite, I think it is honore???, not being a "major" corner, corners to me command a special treatment that this design simply does not meet.

The best treatment may be to wait out this downturn....off course as I noted above there are undoubtly pressures that we are unaware off that may be forcing the owner's hand.....what ever this design is...it is unfortunate

Indignant chastisement? That's a pretty extreme reading of mild sarcasm. I was referring to aic4ever's detailed explanation, which is pretty straightforward and does not seem to belie a "pressure that we are unaware of," and which also states that there are three retail tenants lined up. I'd also much rather see a taller structure here but understand why the developer wants to act now given the circumstances.

Concerning aesthetics, if you noticed-- and I don't think that you did-- my comment was in reference to ChicagoChicago's quip about the height, not the design.

[Mr Downtown]

Is/was Ogden the only major diagonal street to run in the "wrong" direction, i.e. not toward downtown?

Well, there's Forest Preserve Drive.

But Ogden did run toward downtown before the Plan of Chicago–recommended extension to Lincoln Park. It was an 1840s-era plank road that ran from Chicago to Naperville.

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/6918/ogdenavenuelrco9.jpg
From The Plan of Chicago in 1933

[aic4ever]

To clarify, "Bucktown" is not a landmark district. However, Milwaukee (and parts of North and Damen) are a relatively new district:

Milwaukee Avenue District, predominately the 1200 through 1600 blocks of N. Milwaukee Ave., the 1500 block of N. Damen Ave., and the 1900 and 2000 blocks of W. North Ave. ca. 1877-1929; various architects.

The designation was only approved in April 2008 (http://egov.cityofchicago.org/city/webportal/portalContentItemAction.do?blockName=Planning+And+Development%2f2008%2fI+Want+To&deptMainCategoryOID=-536884816&channelId=0&programId=0&entityName=Planning+And+Development&topChannelName=Dept&contentOID=536978595&Failed_Reason=Invalid+timestamp,+engine+has+been+restarted&contenTypeName=COC_EDITORIAL&com.broadvision.session.new=Yes&Failed_Page=%2fwebportal%2fportalContentItemAction.do&context=dept), which is why earlier projects did not require Landmarks review.

Good explanation here. I was a bit from the hip in my explanation of the area being a landmarked neighborhood as I had imagined others were already aware of it, and that it was a recent development.

[aic4ever]

I am very aware of the market effects, so please tone down the indignant chastisement. Given the economic downturn retail / commercial development is hardly a safe call either, there are undoubtly economic pressures to get this parcel generating income for the owner asap.....I just think this use is short sighted and perhaps incorrect, given that retail may be in for a very hard landing over the next 12 - 18 month and perhaps longer.

On a corner such as this despite, I think it is honore???, not being a "major" corner, corners to me command a special treatment that this design simply does not meet. I believe the zoning here is b3-2, which allows for close to a 50ft building max I think, enough for 5 stories certainly 4 stories


The best treatment may be to wait out this downturn....off course as I noted above there are undoubtly pressures that we are unaware off that may be forcing the owner's hand.....what ever this design is...it is unfortunate

What is being done programmatically was the only economically viable option. Condos, even in the inflated market would have been a less valuable option to sell, due to the aforementioned train. Creatively placing stairs/elevators at the back would have helped, but not a lot. The CTA is tremendously loud. My office is right next to the tracks. I could jump off the fire escape and make it to them. Nobody will pay good money for the pleasure of falling asleep to a rumbling train every ten minutes. Recall the trials and tribulations of one Mr. Elwood Blues, if you will. Waiting out the downturn would only have incurred the developer a great amount in carrying costs for the pleasure of a proforma that definitely wouldn't have worked when considering said carrying costs.

There is a reason the tower at North & Milwaukee is empty. Bucktown is not an office-space kind of area, and does not ever project to be, as it has become the artsy boutique shopping and good restaurant area, similar to Armitage/Halsted. Office space was not an option. Even with the inflated retail rates in Bucktown covering the losses of the upper floors of the building, the proforma didn't play.

Debateably unfortunately for the aesthetic, single story retail was the way to go, and remains the way to go for newer development for the fact that it's the best way to get the loans for construction. If you get the leases done, you get the money. Leases can get done with relatively little design legwork (read: money spent). Expect to see more of it in places you'd rather not.

[Abner]

The CTA is tremendously loud. My office is right next to the tracks. I could jump off the fire escape and make it to them. Nobody will pay good money for the pleasure of falling asleep to a rumbling train every ten minutes. Recall the trials and tribulations of one Mr. Elwood Blues, if you will.

I've sort of wondered how the tracks affect development prospects on Loop parcels that abut them--thinking especially here of Van Buren/Wabash and Harrison/State, areas that are still littered with parking lots (the former is especially bad due to screeching from the turn). Questions for anybody: is the noise lessened much by nine (or whatever) floors of parking as a buffer? How do the developments at State/Lake and Wells/Lake deal with train noise? I remember marveling at the relatively new condos on Lake at Morgan, which is also really loud because the train is going so fast over a steel structure there--anybody know how developments like that happen?

[ardecila]

The immediate, urban appeal of living next to the L is enough for many buyers. A few people actually DO enjoy it and a few people move away, but most people just learn to deal with it. The effect on property values isn't too huge, I would guess.

Besides, the situation at Morgan is about to change - the roar of a 50mph train will exchanged for "An inbound train, towards the Loop, will be arriving shortly." and "This is Morgan. Doors open on the right at Morgan." :haha:

[harryc]

I did the original design/build budget .....

Thank you for the insight and firsthand knowledge.

[Nowhereman1280]

I've sort of wondered how the tracks affect development prospects on Loop parcels that abut them--thinking especially here of Van Buren/Wabash and Harrison/State, areas that are still littered with parking lots (the former is especially bad due to screeching from the turn). Questions for anybody: is the noise lessened much by nine (or whatever) floors of parking as a buffer?

Well I can tell you that I live on the 49th floor of a highrise two blocks East of the El, and I can tell you that its far louder up here than it is when I stand outside the front door of the building. This is because the short buildings and trees absorb a lot of the noise at ground level. When you have a straight line between you and the El, its going to be loud, even at 1/3 mile distance and my windows are from the El. I can't imagine how loud it is in the loop where the canyons of skyscrapers probably just project the noise straight upwards.

I have a feeling it doesn't do much to the property values in the loop. The loop isn't exactly somewhere you move for peace and quiet or tranquility.

[ChicagoChicago]

I've sort of wondered how the tracks affect development prospects on Loop parcels that abut them--thinking especially here of Van Buren/Wabash and Harrison/State, areas that are still littered with parking lots (the former is especially bad due to screeching from the turn). Questions for anybody: is the noise lessened much by nine (or whatever) floors of parking as a buffer? How do the developments at State/Lake and Wells/Lake deal with train noise? I remember marveling at the relatively new condos on Lake at Morgan, which is also really loud because the train is going so fast over a steel structure there--anybody know how developments like that happen?I work on the 21st floor overlooking Lake at LaSalle, and I can tell you without a doubt that it's just frickin LOUD! I do think that the CTA could go a long way to making them quieter if they wanted, but I don't really think that's a concern for them. Particularly loud are the spots were track rails come together. They bang like crazy. A good example of such points is on the Wells St. draw bridge. My ears ring just thinking about it...

[Jibba]

"An inbound train, towards the Loop, will be arriving shortly." and "This is Morgan. Doors open on the right at Morgan." :haha:

Easily one of my favorite sounds of Chicago. It sounds like the woman who was recorded for that message just took a giant drag from her cigarette, and, at once, exhaled, sighed, and slothfully spewed out her statement. I get a laugh out of it every time.

[lawfin]

What is being done programmatically was the only economically viable option. Condos, even in the inflated market would have been a less valuable option to sell, due to the aforementioned train. Creatively placing stairs/elevators at the back would have helped, but not a lot. The CTA is tremendously loud. My office is right next to the tracks. I could jump off the fire escape and make it to them. Nobody will pay good money for the pleasure of falling asleep to a rumbling train every ten minutes. Recall the trials and tribulations of one Mr. Elwood Blues, if you will. Waiting out the downturn would only have incurred the developer a great amount in carrying costs for the pleasure of a proforma that definitely wouldn't have worked when considering said carrying costs.

There is a reason the tower at North & Milwaukee is empty. Bucktown is not an office-space kind of area, and does not ever project to be, as it has become the artsy boutique shopping and good restaurant area, similar to Armitage/Halsted. Office space was not an option. Even with the inflated retail rates in Bucktown covering the losses of the upper floors of the building, the proforma didn't play.

Debateably unfortunately for the aesthetic, single story retail was the way to go, and remains the way to go for newer development for the fact that it's the best way to get the loans for construction. If you get the leases done, you get the money. Leases can get done with relatively little design legwork (read: money spent). Expect to see more of it in places you'd rather not.

Was rental ever considered?

[BWChicago]

I work on the 21st floor overlooking Lake at LaSalle, and I can tell you without a doubt that it's just frickin LOUD! I do think that the CTA could go a long way to making them quieter if they wanted, but I don't really think that's a concern for them. Particularly loud are the spots were track rails come together. They bang like crazy. A good example of such points is on the Wells St. draw bridge. My ears ring just thinking about it...

They're working on it, somewhat
http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/autocorner/chi-getting-around-15-dec15,0,4261279.column

[aic4ever]

Was rental ever considered?

I couldn't speak to that, to be honest. The option was not addressed in any of the conversations I'd had. So I guess you've got your red herring...

[Chicago3rd]

I've sort of wondered how the tracks affect development prospects on Loop parcels that abut them--thinking especially here of Van Buren/Wabash and Harrison/State, areas that are still littered with parking lots (the former is especially bad due to screeching from the turn).

It is clear...look at all the blight up on the northside and the non-construction of no towers in River North along the el!?!:shrug:

[harryc]

June 8 - work continues
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_8TC_VUmf9Fw/SWeK8BT60aI/AAAAAAABCHw/TQcGm_Mv-v4/s800/P1200205.JPG

[VivaLFuego]

It is clear...look at all the blight up on the northside and the non-construction of no towers in River North along the el!?!:shrug:

Along the Green Line the blight definitely correlates with proximity to the L, with the abandonment and vacancy notably worse near the tracks. The Brown Line between Merchandise Mart and Chicago was lined with almost nothing but parking lots until this latest boom.

In a desirable or high-demand area, the L is definitely not an impediment to development or occupancy. However in a marginal area, all else equal, people would rather live at least a couple blocks away.

[lawfin]

I couldn't speak to that, to be honest. The option was not addressed in any of the conversations I'd had. So I guess you've got your red herring...
I appreciate your insight into this development and that you may not have been privy to any discussions of this as rental, if in fact they ever occurred, but I hardly see it as a red herring.

Rental I would think could present an avenue for more effecient land use in this seemingly relatively high value parcel. We need rental in this city, and may even need more of it given recent employment numbers and the realities of the credit markets. There really seems to be an antipathy on the part of many developers especially in the mid-rise style of developing rental.

It is a very tough market out there, I was just wondering if another land use possibiltiy had been considered

[emathias]

Well, there's Forest Preserve Drive.

But Ogden did run toward downtown before the Plan of Chicago–recommended extension to Lincoln Park. It was an 1840s-era plank road that ran from Chicago to Naperville.

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/6918/ogdenavenuelrco9.jpg
From The Plan of Chicago in 1933

Thanks for posting that - I'd never actually seen a picture of what Ogden used to look like.

[Abner]

Easily one of my favorite sounds of Chicago. It sounds like the woman who was recorded for that message just took a giant drag from her cigarette, and, at once, exhaled, sighed, and slothfully spewed out her statement. I get a laugh out of it every time.

Yeah, and I think the recording they use might also be different at certain stations. I've noticed she REALLY sounds that way at some Orange Line stations.

Along the Green Line the blight definitely correlates with proximity to the L, with the abandonment and vacancy notably worse near the tracks. The Brown Line between Merchandise Mart and Chicago was lined with almost nothing but parking lots until this latest boom.

In a desirable or high-demand area, the L is definitely not an impediment to development or occupancy. However in a marginal area, all else equal, people would rather live at least a couple blocks away.

That has basically been my impression. People might not stay away from tracts adjacent to the el forever, but they will be the last to be redeveloped. What I haven't really known is how this affects highrise/skyscraper construction. Even now, just about all the Loop parking garages are on Wells, Lake, Wabash, and Van Buren.

[honte]

Yeah, I don't think it is Noble Square, this didn't even become a park/plaza until the subway was constructed.

Yeah, my bad. I guess I took to calling it that because I don't like that name "Polish Triangle" - sounds derogatory like "Viagra Triangle." Doesn't it have a real name?

[honte]

I've sort of wondered how the tracks affect development prospects on Loop parcels that abut them--thinking especially here of Van Buren/Wabash and Harrison/State, areas that are still littered with parking lots (the former is especially bad due to screeching from the turn). Questions for anybody: is the noise lessened much by nine (or whatever) floors of parking as a buffer? How do the developments at State/Lake and Wells/Lake deal with train noise? I remember marveling at the relatively new condos on Lake at Morgan, which is also really loud because the train is going so fast over a steel structure there--anybody know how developments like that happen?

I've been in some renovated buildings next to the Elevated that are truly impressive... you can watch the train go by and barely hear a rumble.

All you need is the right kind of sound-dampening windows and proper sound insulation. It can be overcome, but at a cost. The nice thing about the el is that it produces sound at a fairly confined frequency, unless you're near a turn or other screech-prone area.

[Ch.G, Ch.G]

^ Per Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_triangle):

There have been two major controversies relating to Polonia Triangle. The first dealt with renaming the plaza after Nelson Algren, whose controversial novels prominently displayed the Polish American underclass and was taken by Polish residents as Anti-Polonism. In the end a compromise was reached where the Triangle kept its name and a newly installed fountain was named after Algren and inscribed with a quote from 'Chicago: City on the Make' around the fountain's base: "For the masses who do the city's labor also keep the city's heart." The second more recent one has been a push by a number of area residents led by Zygmunt Dyrkacz, head of the Chopin Theatre, to artistically redevelop the Triangle as "the gateway to Wicker Park."

[Jibba]

Whatever this thing is...BP? (currently no recollection):
http://img355.imageshack.us/img355/4656/dsc065097372572fz0.jpg

[aic4ever]

I've been in some renovated buildings next to the Elevated that are truly impressive... you can watch the train go by and barely hear a rumble.

All you need is the right kind of sound-dampening windows and proper sound insulation. It can be overcome, but at a cost. The nice thing about the el is that it produces sound at a fairly confined frequency, unless you're near a turn or other screech-prone area.

At a cost, indeed! May as well be doing bullet-proof glass!

[Mr Downtown]

^For State Street Village at IIT, I'm told that the double-pane glass facing the L tracks has panes of two different thicknesses, which causes them to vibrate at different frequencies, helping to dampen the sound.

[honte]

At a cost, indeed! May as well be doing bullet-proof glass!

Well, if it lets you theoretically do three stories of condos on top of your 1-story retail building, I would certainly consider it.

Personally, I would love to live overlooking an el if it weren't for the noise.

[Ch.G, Ch.G]

spyguy posted in the Olympic thread a snippet from Blair Kamin's blog (http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/theskyline/2009/01/its-the-year-of.html#more) about the February unveiling of the city's plans and designs. In the entry, BK also mentioned a few other things I wasn't aware of:

Illinois Holocaust Museum and Education Center. Designed by Chicago architect Stanley Tigerman, this three-part, 65,000-square-fooot building is to be the Midwest’s largest center devoted to teaching what organizers call “the universal lessons of the Holocaust.” In Skokie, along the Edens Expressway, it is scheduled to open April 19 at 9603 Woods Dr.

I had no idea ours is the region's largest Holocaust museum. Given the size and history of the metropolitan area, I'm also a little surprised it's not larger or more centrally located (though I'm well aware of Skokie's place in the history of the immigration of survivors). And no knock on Tigerman, but, for the region's largest museum, this (http://www.ilholocaustmuseum.org/pages/about_the_museum/2.php) is the best we could do?

:???::???::???::???::???:

New pavilions in Millennium Park Two internationally renowned architects, London’s Zaha Hadid and Amsterdam’s Ben van BerkylBerkyl, have designed temporary pavilions that will serve as focal points for the region’s celebration of the Burnham Plan. They open June 19.

So the pavilions are already designed? Are they to be a surprise? Last I heard, the selection of UNStudio and Hadid wasn't even set in stone...

:???::???::???::???::???:

A skyscraper for seniors. The Clare at Water Tower, a 54-story tower by Chicago architect Ralph Johnson, is almost surely one of the world’s tallest retirement communities. The concrete and glass high-rise, which will mainly house independent and assisting-living apartments for seniors, has just opened at 55 E. Pearson St.

This belongs in the Boom Rundown thread, I know, but I (also) had no clue The Clare was designed by Ralph Johnson? Maybe it was the watercolor renderings that threw me off...

:???::???::???::???::???:

[the urban politician]

In a desirable or high-demand area, the L is definitely not an impediment to development or occupancy. However in a marginal area, all else equal, people would rather live at least a couple blocks away.

A few years ago I started a thread at SSC asking whether Chicagoans would prefer to eliminate the L and have the train system replaced by subways. I was slapped, beaten, and humiliated for even suggesting it (Steely Dan was particularly aggressive).

Truth be told, one has to wonder how the city would be different if the entire system were underground. Perhaps those areas on the south side near the Green Line would actually be developed, vibrant places to this day..

[nomarandlee]

:previous: :haha:

When this discussion came up my thoughts went back precisely to that thread. I wasn't sure if this was the place to bring up old wounds however. ;) Lately I have been thinking that that your original idea wasn't such a bad one especially if the removed rails could then be replaced by some BRT corridors or walking paths like the Bloomingdale Trail is supposed to turned into. Plus, I think giving passengers a more climate controlled space during the harsh months would be welcome. Granted the issue comes up if that is the first thing we should do with spare billions for transit........

Anyway, that discussion should probably go in the transit section.

[Nowhereman1280]

Does anyone know what the new building at the corner of Dodge and Mulford in Skokie (or is it evanston) is? Its some sort of Jewish Community Center, but I really enjoy the design and want to know who designed it.

[spyguy]

Does anyone know what the new building at the corner of Dodge and Mulford in Skokie (or is it evanston) is? Its some sort of Jewish Community Center, but I really enjoy the design and want to know who designed it.

http://www.jrc-evanston.org

Ross Barney

[Jibba]

Modern Wing (from tonight):
http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/8943/dsc065541293967ln2.jpg

[honte]

^ Damn you're fast, spyguy. Why do I even bother?

Also worth noting that the building is Platinum certified.

[Nowhereman1280]

Ah thanks guys!

Here is a good pic I found on Flckr, if any of you are ever out in the area the building is worth driving or walking a block or two out of your way to check out.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2383/2274951659_65d9080988.jpg
mmmmarshall on flckr

So can we just get rid of all the other firms in Chicago and just give all of the commissions to people like Ross Barney, Kreueck and Sexton, Studio Gang, and David Hovey? Who says we've go no up and coming local talent. I like what I see with the contemporary modern forms combined with efficiency and environmental design! I hope these firms grow and we get a new Chicago School based on "environmental expressionism" instead of (or maybe combined with) Structural Expressionism.

[honte]

^ Really? I think most of her work is pretty mediocre. The building above seems ok to me - the LEED part is its most exciting, IMO. What do you like about it so much?

[ChiPsy]

Whatever this thing is...BP? (currently no recollection):
http://img355.imageshack.us/img355/4656/dsc065097372572fz0.jpg

I think that's right.

[Chicago3rd]

Along the Green Line the blight definitely correlates with proximity to the L, with the abandonment and vacancy notably worse near the tracks. The Brown Line between Merchandise Mart and Chicago was lined with almost nothing but parking lots until this latest boom.

In a desirable or high-demand area, the L is definitely not an impediment to development or occupancy. However in a marginal area, all else equal, people would rather live at least a couple blocks away.


So it ain't just an L issue. And we have case after case of neighborhoods and buildings showing us that it isn't an issue. It is the neighborhood area...and what is happening there...that is causing the issue.
However in a marginal area, all else equal, people would rather live at least a couple blocks away.
Much of our thinking is based on myths...reinforced by medias and entertainment assault on urban living...and the suburbanification movement in this country. People would rather have a three car garage....and drive a block to the 7-11...that is true happiness...according to much of the myth in our land.

[Chicago3rd]

A few years ago I started a thread at SSC asking whether Chicagoans would prefer to eliminate the L and have the train system replaced by subways. I was slapped, beaten, and humiliated for even suggesting it (Steely Dan was particularly aggressive).

Truth be told, one has to wonder how the city would be different if the entire system were underground. Perhaps those areas on the south side near the Green Line would actually be developed, vibrant places to this day..

I was one of the people who victimized you urban in the last discussions...and though it pains me to say this...and with the qualification that I have used the Seoul system extensively now....I can say....if we do anymore expanding...it needs to be in a subway format and it needs to be like the Seoul system.... I know I will not be castrated...and reminded how small Chicago is compared to Seoul...but as a pedestrian/transit user most of my life...I can just say the Seoul system is a pleasure....and pretty much not a hassle.

[the urban politician]

^ Yeah, but Chicago will be fine. Daley has more important things to do, like planting trees in parking lots and winning "Greenest Mayor" awards.

[Nowhereman1280]

^ Really? I think most of her work is pretty mediocre. The building above seems ok to me - the LEED part is its most exciting, IMO. What do you like about it so much?

Well I like it more than most of the crap that gets built. I mean its way better than the other neo-classical temples and stuff they build out in that area of Evanston and in Skokie. Also, I do like the materials it uses, its refreshing and different.

[aic4ever]

^For State Street Village at IIT, I'm told that the double-pane glass facing the L tracks has panes of two different thicknesses, which causes them to vibrate at different frequencies, helping to dampen the sound.

That building is actually a triumph acoustically because of that glass wall. You stand inside, twenty feet from the train, looking CTA passengers in the eye as they roll past, and you could hear a pin drop in the hallway.

I am not sure if it works in the manner you describe, but the glass has got to be over an inch or two in total thickness.

Incidentally, if looking for places to live, that place ends up being the most expensive, per square foot, for rental space anywhere in the area by a longshot.

That building got away with it for being on a school campus, and thus basically being guaranteed full occupancy at whatever cost they needed to charge. Such would not likely be the case in other expansive development along the tracks.

[nomarandlee]

http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/theskyline/2009/01/planning-for-ch.html


Planning for Chicago's future requires Burnham-style vision--and a big pair of green-tinted glasses

By Blair Kamin
Originally posted: January 10, 2009

This could be a smashing year for Chicago, but not only for the reasons -- including Barack Obama's inauguration -- that probably come to mind. Specifically, 2009 could make a historic mark because it will give the residents of Chicago and its vast metropolitan area a chance to start a civic conversation about how we live, how we grow and whether the mass suburban sprawl of the last few decades still makes sense in the era of declining fossil fuel supplies and global warming. There's a marvelous excuse to have this conversation. The region will be celebrating the 100th anniversary of one of the greatest city plans in history............
..

[Abner]

^For State Street Village at IIT, I'm told that the double-pane glass facing the L tracks has panes of two different thicknesses, which causes them to vibrate at different frequencies, helping to dampen the sound.

So I'm guessing that those windows have to be specially made to cancel the particular frequencies of el noise?

No matter how fancy the windows, of course, they don't cancel any sound if you open them.

[Mr Downtown]

No, I think the noise suppression is merely because the two panes don't vibrate in unison. "Tuning" a surface to suppress a particular frequency would seem to be a function of size and its relation to the wavelength, and would require the panes of glass to be of particular dimensions.

[aic4ever]

No, I think the noise suppression is merely because the two panes don't vibrate in unison. "Tuning" a surface to suppress a particular frequency would seem to be a function of size and its relation to the wavelength, and would require the panes of glass to be of particular dimensions.

Correct. Acoustic suppression of sounds comes not so much from "absorbing" the noise, but rather from utilizing materials and creating assemblies that will dissipate the energy within themselves, rather than allowing that energy to pass beyond them. Alternatively, as with noise cancelling headphones, frequencies are generated that are equal and opposite to the frequencies surrounding, resulting in a net zero of energy transfer, hence, the noise cancellation. Acoustics a growing field in Architectural Engineering and is some very cool stuff to read about if you're into engineering in general.

[Jibba]

^That is interesting. When you say that the equal frequencies are "opposite" to the surrounding frequencies (the ones creating the undesirable noise), do you mean of opposite phase?

[EarlyBuyer]

These are from Friday 1/9. The engines on this tug were roaring as the flat (bow?) of this barge struggled to plow through the ice on the river. Quite a sight to watch (and hear).

Photos taken by EarlyBuyer


http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/5937/dsc0343mv4.jpg


http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/7651/dsc0346wd1.jpg


http://img55.imageshack.us/img55/7382/dsc0349az8.jpg

[Jibba]

^That's super cool.

[honte]

^That is interesting. When you say that the equal frequencies are "opposite" to the surrounding frequencies (the ones creating the undesirable noise), do you mean of opposite phase?

Yes, that's the idea. It has very limited applications, as you would expect.

Acoustic absorbers are out there and they work for certain frequency ranges. There are lots of other techniques too, such as resonators and reflectors.

Also, AIC, I've been in buildings with systems much cheaper than Jahn's solution at IIT. These were typical extruded aluminum with some fancy sealants and isolation pieces.

Unfortunately, it was not possible for me to get a good look at the assembly or learn much about how it worked. But it really did work well, and the owner told me the cost was not extravagant.

[Loopy]

.

[Jibba]

^Thanks for the information, honte and loopy. I would think that absorption would be a more cost-efficient solution than the tuning of materials to create noise-canceling frequencies, if only from the aspect of the cost of the engineering services. A train's invasive frequencies spectrum would seem to be quite wide, no? Anything from a low-range rumble to an arrhythmic, high-range squelch can emanate from a passing train within the span of only twenty or so feet. I would think it would be quite difficult to "tune" this disparate range of sounds, especially compared to just absorbing them. That isn't to say that absorption would necessarily work better across a wider range of frequencies (I really don't know), but I would think that this it would be more easily implemented into residential applications, especially those on a tight budget.

[Chicago Shawn]

I lived next to the el in Pilsen for 15 months, and it didn't bother me at all. We lived in a solid 1889 brick building that itself, did plenty to reduce the noise level indoors. I actually liked the rumbling sound, reminded me of distant thunder in a approaching storm.


I received this e-mail regarding JONES COLLEGE PREP, I will likely be out of town on this day, so if anyone can go and report back, it would be greatly appreciated...


Jones College Prep Expanding

Meeting to Discuss Expansion & Increased Enrollment

Monday, January 26 from 6:30 to 8 PM


The Jones Local School Council (LSC) is holding a special meeting devoted
solely for the purpose of discussing JCP's new facility construction and the
neighborhood student enrollment addition being promoted by the CPS Central
Office. The first special forum on this topic took place in November and was
open primarily to students, parents, and staff within the JCP community. This
second public forum is designed for LOCAL NEIGHBORHOOD RESIDENTS - to inform
them of th ese plans as well as receive their input on the proposal. The
greater South Loop community20is welcome to attend this open meeting, which will
be held at Jones, in the cafeteria, located at 606 S. State St. Parking will
be available in the lot at State and Balbo.

[Jibba]

^I like that parking needs to be provided for "local residents only", although I'm sure the "greater South Loop" encompasses a large enough area.

How do they ensure that only local residents attend these meetings? I have never been to any outside of my neighborhood that declared "locals only", so I am unaware of any check-in process (formal or otherwise) that one must go through. I was thinking about going to check it out if for nothing more than to gauge what a meeting about schools is all about, but if I am going to get shunned after trekking all the way down there then I am not going to bother. I am assuming that it is going to be a heated issue; could provide for some entertainment at the very least if I am unable to contribute.

[Chicago Shawn]

^Considering that all Chicago residents pay taxes towards our schools, and by virtue of meeting in a public building, it should be open to everyone.

[aic4ever]

Lincolnwood's Purple Hotel Back on the Market (http://www.chicagorealestatedaily.com/cgi-bin/news.pl?id=32574)

The Purple Hotel in Lincolnwood is back on the market after a joint-venture affiliate of Inland Real Estate Group of Cos. backed out of a deal to buy the shuttered property.

Oak Brook-based Inland Real Estate Acquisitions Inc. and TMK Development Ltd., of Bannockburn, agreed in May to pay $27 million for the three-building, 8-acre site at 4500 W. Touhy Ave. The hotel was closed in January 2007 because of numerous health and building code violations.

[Jibba]

^I feel the same way, but, unfortunately, I'm afraid that that completely obvious and rational fact evades most people. I think I'll head down there anyway, and if they have anything to say about it then I'll provide them with a few choice words of my own.

[Mr Downtown]

The phrase "local neighborhood residents," in this context, simply means citizens rather than students, parents, and staff. No one is trying to limit who attends the meeting. And what do you expect to be a heated issue?

[Jibba]

Nothing in particular, other than the fact that schools tend to be a charged and heated issue as there are usually a fair amount of conflicting interests at play. There was quite a controversy over another school in the South Loop (the name eludes me now, but perhaps you will recall what it it), although I guess I shouldn't take geographical proximity to make a socially analogous case. It is certainly possible that there will be nothing heated; I suppose I was "just saying" which I try to avoid but sometimes it gets said anyway.

[honte]

Lincolnwood's Purple Hotel Back on the Market (http://www.chicagorealestatedaily.com/cgi-bin/news.pl?id=32574)


Can I just take a moment to say, The Purple Hotel is flat-out fresh.

I hope it has escaped developer demise and lives to swank on into another century.

[spyguy]

http://www.wgntv.com/landing/?Michigan-Avenue-bridge-makeover-begins-=1&blockID=183228&feedID=209

Michigan Avenue bridge makeover begins
Bob Jordan, WGN News; James Janega

January 12, 2009

The city began restoring sidewalks and handrails on the historic downtown Michigan Avenue bridge today -- the first step in a multistage project that will stretch until June, disrupt pedestrian traffic and cost in the neighborhood of $3.5 million.
------
http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/5950/46985850va0.jpg
http://i43.tinypic.com/32znoqr.jpg

[aic4ever]

Can I just take a moment to say, The Purple Hotel is flat-out fresh.

I hope it has escaped developer demise and lives to swank on into another century.

Really? Is it nice inside or something? I've always thought it was pretty bland from the outside. The fact that it's purple notwithstanding, at least, which I don't think plays well with the general ugliness of the building anway. Dunno...just my thought on the outside. Obviously not judging a book by its cover and all that, though.

[wrab]

Really? Is it nice inside or something? I've always thought it was pretty bland from the outside. The fact that it's purple notwithstanding, at least, which I don't think plays well with the general ugliness of the building anway. Dunno...just my thought on the outside. Obviously not judging a book by its cover and all that, though.

No, I don't think it is very nice inside. But the Purple Hotel must never die.

[VivaLFuego]

I have to say I'm a bit surprised by the level of demolition activity continuing despite the credit and housing crisis. These two on Orleans near the Brown Line track were recently removed:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=1536+n.+orleans,+chicago+il&sll=41.91039,-87.637542&sspn=0.006771,0.008057&g=orleans+and+schiller,+chicago+il&ie=UTF8&ll=41.910485,-87.637564&spn=0.006771,0.008057&t=h&z=17&iwloc=addr&layer=c&cbll=41.910471,-87.637545&panoid=HlZigpQZm-QC6wqEGeBvzA&cbp=12,100.11336890053411,,0,4.771360967903418

[ChicagoChicago]

I have to say I'm a bit surprised by the level of demolition activity continuing despite the credit and housing crisis. These two on Orleans near the Brown Line track were recently removed:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=1536+n.+orleans,+chicago+il&sll=41.91039,-87.637542&sspn=0.006771,0.008057&g=orleans+and+schiller,+chicago+il&ie=UTF8&ll=41.910485,-87.637564&spn=0.006771,0.008057&t=h&z=17&iwloc=addr&layer=c&cbll=41.910471,-87.637545&panoid=HlZigpQZm-QC6wqEGeBvzA&cbp=12,100.11336890053411,,0,4.771360967903418I'm wondering if it's because the tax assessed value goes down with no building on it. Perhaps some of this is a cost saving initiative for developers that plan to hold the lots for extended periods of time...

[ardecila]

Nothing in particular, other than the fact that schools tend to be a charged and heated issue as there are usually a fair amount of conflicting interests at play. There was quite a controversy over another school in the South Loop (the name eludes me now, but perhaps you will recall what it it), although I guess I shouldn't take geographical proximity to make a socially analogous case. It is certainly possible that there will be nothing heated; I suppose I was "just saying" which I try to avoid but sometimes it gets said anyway.

The controversy you mention happened at South Loop Elementary (I know, great name, right?) It was a charged debate because it involved matters of safety for small children. I would expect that any parent who sends their high school age child across the city to a magnet school would not be worried about that child wandering out into the street.

I know honte was disappointed with the Jones plan, because of the inefficiency of demolition and the loss of the modernist building, but the community will probably receive it well.

[Jibba]

^Yep, that would be the one. Thank you for providing the name and the details surrounding the plan. I was having a hard time remembering why there was an issue with the plan, but now that you mention the traffic/pedestrian safety issue I can sort of remember more about it now. I thought there was also an issue with the area outlined for the district of enrollment, but I don't think that could be right because magnet schools accept applications from all areas, no? Anyway, nothing more to discuss about that school at this point, but thank you for the information.