CHICAGO | General Developments

[LouisVanDerWright]

Wow, the West Loop is becoming quite the place. But I'm sure it's still just a fad, right SamintheLoop?

Don't be silly, the West Loop is a yokel backwater which will never justify international investment or Fortune 500 headquarters. It certainly will never become a direct Westward extension of the Loop. Anyone who is moving there is just a poser phony hipster searching for crumbs of authenticity under the reel to reel tape deck at Au Cheval!

[Mr Downtown]

Mr D's personal opinions regarding zoning and the absurd way it is abused in Chicago are not really the point. But he is trained in the law, and therefore wishes to know more when someone writes

I would love to see a massive court challenge mounted against Aldermanic prerogative in general.

So I ask again: what legal basis do you think could challenge legislation enacted by duly elected officials?

[SamInTheLoop]

Don't be silly, the West Loop is a yokel backwater which will never justify international investment or Fortune 500 headquarters. It certainly will never become a direct Westward extension of the Loop. Anyone who is moving there is just a poser phony hipster searching for crumbs of authenticity under the reel to reel tape deck at Au Cheval!


Lol. You guys are too much. I never stated anything against continued development west of the expressway....certainly not residential development or some mixed-use and in general being a westward expansion of greater downtown. That's all stuff you wrongly imagined I argued post hoc.

My sole argument - which I still hold more than ever - is that it does not make any sense whatsoever for corporate employers to locate thousands - let alone tens of thousands - of office jobs in the Fulton Market/Far West Loop area. Unless there is some substantial mass transit infrastructure/commuter rail hubs in the neighborhood that I haven't discovered, yet, I'm right about that. This trend of employers locating large offices here (especially but certainly not exclusively in faux-historical inauthentic cheap new construction) is indeed a fashion - and is a mistake on the part of perceived 'savvy' decision/makers - such as Google, McDonald's and others - will be seen in the future - whether in 5 years, or 15 years - as this mistake that it is. Guys - the infrastructure ($billions needed) is not going to follow. Just watch.

Oh - and one other thing - that clown that just signed on for a $1k+/psf condo in the West Loop is getting taken. That's just silly, and he/she will lose a lot of cash on that move....

[Mr Downtown]

^Yup. I'm reminded of the "inexorable" move of offices to North Michigan back in the 1970s and 80s. Which ended with Mag Mile office space turned into hotel rooms and condos.

Developers are in the game of buying cheap and selling high. That's an easier game to play in Chicago, with its lack of any planning, than in most big cities. But it doesn't mean that tenants will go where the fundamental factors of location—like how their people get to work—are missing.

[the urban politician]

^ Yet River North real estate is some of the highest priced residential real estate in the city, so you are wrong.

It also has the lowest office vacancy rate in the city.

[ardecila]

^ Yet River North real estate is some of the highest priced residential real estate in the city, so you are wrong.

It also has the lowest office vacancy rate in the city.

Yeah, but the River North submarket includes the goliath Merchandise Mart, which is within easy walking distance of all L lines and Metra stops (unlike buildings off the Mag Mile).

I honestly don't think the transit situation in West Loop is that bad, though. Downtown Manhattan manages to thrive as a CBD despite having no direct access to suburban commuter rail (for the sake of argument, let's not call Newark, Jersey City et al "suburban"). Cambridge's Kendall Square also manages to thrive as a midrise office district without a full set of suburban connections. Likewise for many satellite office districts around DC.

Face it, we have a scarcity of land around the Loop transit hub and future office development will increasingly be pushed to more outlying spots like Fulton Market and North Branch.

[Mr Downtown]

North Michigan Avenue is not River North.

From Crain's Jan. 9, 2017: (http://www.chicagobusiness.com/realestate/20170109/CRED02/170109891/will-the-downtown-office-boom-continue-in-2017)

River North maintained the lowest vacancy among all downtown submarkets, at 7.7 percent, down from 7.8 percent in the previous period. North Michigan Avenue's vacancy stayed the highest, at 13.9 percent, down from 13.8 percent one quarter earlier.

[denizen467]

I honestly don't think the transit situation in West Loop is that bad, though. Downtown Manhattan manages to thrive as a CBD despite having no direct access to suburban commuter rail (for the sake of argument, let's not call Newark, Jersey City et al "suburban"). ...

Face it, we have a scarcity of land around the Loop transit hub and future office development will increasingly be pushed to more outlying spots like Fulton Market and North Branch.
Plus, the things luring tenants to Fulton today are all but absent in the Loop; it's not a close decision between the two areas because they are so starkly different. Fulton has become a sort of new urban paradigm for Chicago commercial districts, and assuming this won't get eroded by being a victim of its own success, certain kinds of companies will continue to desire it. The key thing that hopefully keeps it from failing the way that the North Michigan office district idea did is access -- in addition to being next to the Kennedy, the commuter stations are much closer than North Michigan, and there are a variety of low-density east-west streets for accessing the stations. On-demand vehicles (autonomous or not) could make access to the stations even less of an issue; heck, some of these are the very companies likely to conjure up some kind of privately-owned, on-demand fleet of autonomous, level-boarding, non-belching electric mini buses offered to corporate staffs throughout the neighborhood for access to the stations. One of them will probably then also come up with a plan for intelligently re-signalizing the intersections while feasting on oysters and beer at the Publican, or something.

[SolarWind]

May 3, 2017

http://i.imgur.com/QukiuNW.jpg

[SolarWind]

May 5, 2017

http://i.imgur.com/Kd9tXHg.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/Ach6dvv.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/hBBwTph.jpg

[SolarWind]

May 5, 2017

http://i.imgur.com/0eAJ6XS.jpg

[SolarWind]

May 5, 2017

http://i.imgur.com/kz6UhmL.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/uK7dm91.jpg

[SolarWind]

May 5, 2017

http://i.imgur.com/zzX83mO.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/fKmfU87.jpg

[SolarWind]

May 5, 2017

http://i.imgur.com/MS1UgoV.jpg

[SolarWind]

May 5, 2017

http://i.imgur.com/hUGpRw0.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/FDq5KDH.jpg

[k1052]

I was on the selection group for new office space when our west loop lease was up a couple years ago. We looked at River North and from Union it was 0.9 to 1.3 miles for anything we'd lease. Illinois Center was about 1.3 miles. Our existing west loop office was 0.6 miles. We opted for Fulton Market space under a mile. Nobody is unhappy with the location and we have a a mix of 50/50 city suburban dwellers. There was nearly an armed revolt when word got out that we had even looked at IC or parts of River North/North Michigan.

The idea that this is not a viable office district seems suspect when considered against demand and my practical experience.

[marothisu]

I posted this, or part of it, in the Economic thread, but I think it's important for here too since it has impact on development:

March 2017 unemployment data (preliminary numbers) are out and the unemployment rate of the city is now down to 4.5%, which is a decrease of 1.7% since January. This is now tied for the LOWEST unemployment rate in the city (with October 2006) since as far back as I can see this data which is January 1990. The number of unemployed persons is the 2nd lowest since January 1990 (October 2006 is the lowest). This rate now puts Chicago at a lower unemployment rate as Los Angeles and the same as Dallas. Houston of course is higher than Chicago.


The number of employed persons is down compared to summer 2016, but is increasing at a rate right now which we might get back to those levels within a few months. However, the number of employed persons is still 40,000 more than what it was in October 2006 and around the same levels as 1999.

Number of people in the labor force is down since summer 2016 and more at 2012 levels, but still higher than 2006 numbers.


The MSA has an unemployment rate of 4.5% too which is lowest since December 2006. Lowest number of unemployed persons since then too. Number of employed persons and in labor force around the same as it was in late 2006 too.


I think this is important. I've done a lot of data crunching of ACS numbers and these numbers, and basically it looks as if the people who didn't have jobs or couldn't find good enough jobs are leaving and are being replaced with people with maybe better jobs. Will be interesting to see what happens in the coming months because the rate has decreased so rapidly so far this year.

[Halsted & Villagio]

I posted this, or part of it, in the Economic thread, but I think it's important for here too since it has impact on development:

March 2017 unemployment data (preliminary numbers) are out and the unemployment rate of the city is now down to 4.5%, which is a decrease of 1.7% since January. This is now tied for the LOWEST unemployment rate in the city (with October 2006) since as far back as I can see this data which is January 1990. The number of unemployed persons is the 2nd lowest since January 1990 (October 2006 is the lowest). This rate now puts Chicago at a lower unemployment rate as Los Angeles and the same as Dallas. Houston of course is higher than Chicago.


The number of employed persons is down compared to summer 2016, but is increasing at a rate right now which we might get back to those levels within a few months. However, the number of employed persons is still 40,000 more than what it was in October 2006 and around the same levels as 1999.

Number of people in the labor force is down since summer 2016 and more at 2012 levels, but still higher than 2006 numbers.


The MSA has an unemployment rate of 4.5% too which is lowest since December 2006. Lowest number of unemployed persons since then too. Number of employed persons and in labor force around the same as it was in late 2006 too.


I think this is important. I've done a lot of data crunching of ACS numbers and these numbers, and basically it looks as if the people who didn't have jobs or couldn't find good enough jobs are leaving and are being replaced with people with maybe better jobs. Will be interesting to see what happens in the coming months because the rate has decreased so rapidly so far this year.

Outstanding report.... and even better news:yes: ..................... Thanks marothisu

[maru2501]

LDS meeting house is to have a steeple? I forget

[aaron38]

So I ask again: what legal basis do you think could challenge legislation enacted by duly elected officials?

Unequal application of the law. Are dollar stores and wig shops being blocked in Logan Square the same as they are in South Shore? Are businesses in other neighborhoods accused of attracting loiterers? (I've done my share of loitering on north side streets. Why aren't those streets being rezoned?)
Why does it cost more to start a business in a poor neighborhood than a rich neighborhood? Can Aldermen prove that allowing a dollar store to open prevents a more desireable business from opening? Given retail vacancies I doubt it.

What is most telling to me is Ald. Hairston's statement that she has other options available to her but they're too hard to execute. It's much easier for her to just rezone the whole street than to actually do her job.

[Mr Downtown]

Yeah, you'll want to look at City of New Orleans vs. Dukes, 427 US 297 (https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=6763024761880654979&hl=en&as_sdt=6&as_vis=1&oi=scholarr) (1976), giving governments a lot of equal protection leeway in regulating businesses. In legal terms, the assumption of a "rational basis" for regulation gets a lot of deference.

The governing constitutional principle was stated in Katzenbach v. Morgan, supra, at 657:

"[W]e are guided by the familiar principles that a `statute is not invalid under the Constitution because it might have gone farther than it did,' Roschen v. Ward, 279 U. S. 337, 339, that a legislature need not `strike at all evils at the same time,' Semler v. Dental Examiners, 294 U. S. 608, 610, and that `reform may take one step at a time, addressing itself to the phase of the problem which seems most acute to the legislative mind,' Williamson v. Lee Optical Co., 348 U. S. 483, 489."

On its face, Ald. Hairston is only proposing a simple rezoning, and it will be enacted or not by the entire duly elected legislative body of the city, which unquestionably has the authority to do a rezoning. None of her statements about intent are really relevant. Should it come to pass, it's really tough to make inquiries into disparate impact part of the legal analysis. The actions of the legislature are presumed to have a rational basis, unless they make an actual racial distinction. An inquiry into disparate impact would only arise in a civil rights claim, which would be pretty hard to bring over a zoning change.

[marothisu]

The 1 story bank w/drive thru at the corner of Ogden & Adams got a building permit on April 27th to replace it with a 4 story, 36 unit building with retail space. Currently:

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.879032,-87.6690597,3a,75y,111.21h,81.72t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sUakrA15gfIDEDchi44EEAQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1


Also, the former Farmers Garden Market at Lawrence & Bell was permitted for a new 5 story, 14 unit with commercial building on the same day:
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9686899,-87.6856202,3a,75y,41.15h,87.81t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sVXykilIdTU1Qoqg5T6G3Ww!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

[harryc]

March 2015
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4176/34370488362_c3b2135b84_h.jpg

May 2017
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4186/34145894090_6cbc855434_h.jpg

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4168/34370490102_ec8d962193_h.jpg

[SamInTheLoop]

^ Now The Julian. I think Oxford announced this in the last month or two.....

[SamInTheLoop]

^ Yet River North real estate is some of the highest priced residential real estate in the city, so you are wrong.

It also has the lowest office vacancy rate in the city.


Missing his point. North Michigan Avenue has one of (probably THE weakest) the weakest office markets in downtown.....yet, a few decades ago, it was the 'obvious' new office submarket of the future. That didn't pan out, of course, but it took some time for that to become obvious (longer for some than others). Know your fundamentals.....know your fashions......know the difference........

I find you also somewhat conflate the residential and office markets....

Also, just to expound on the current strong River North Office submarket. One needs to realize that 98% of River North's high quality office space is located within about ~2 blocks of the river (probably 90% within 1 block) in it's very large and/or trophy towers......in other words, the very closest part to the Loop proper......

Part of the reason (in addition to falling for a fashion, which by definition is short-termist) - and this is being overlooked somewhat - that some of these larger tenants are allowing themselves to be duped into going to Fulton market area is that it is quite a bit cheaper. That specific short-termism is factoring into the equation for what is in reality quite a long-term decision.....

Wait until we get another couple back-to-back polar vortex winters........watch the millenials cycle and walk across the expressway then.......there will be major buyer's remorse - again, maybe in 5 years, maybe in as long as 15 - but it will come....

One other pet peeve: Many are being duped into believing that there are literally billions and billions of $ right around the corner in infrastructure improvements and new rail lines, stations, etc etc to the West Loop/Near West Side and Greater Downtown. WTF? How gullible can folks be? One would need to be completely ignorant of the fiscal situation and current local, state and federal politics to even entertain such a notion of something like that coming together in the next decade+.....

The smart players over the last year or so - and stretching for the next few, in all likelihood (as bubbles can inflate for quite a while before eventually being pricked) are those landowners/property owners who are now selling.....the time to buy in Fulton Market/Far West Loop for the most part ended a year or two ago.....

[Via Chicago]

i recently started working in the fulton area and expected it to be a PITA to get to as im coming from the north side and traditionally get off the red line at state/lake. the reality is, its not remotely the issue i thought it would be. i just go up to the stairs to the green line, and im basically at Morgan in roughly 5 minutes once i get on the train. if anything, its faster than walking to my old office which was in the loop. im not sure what the big deal is.

in return, our company gets its own building (as opposed to sharing one with a million other tenants), and we got to build it out the way we wanted to. we get windows that open in the summer, get our own private roof deck, a sunlight filled space, we get space to grow. the area could use some more cheap eat/lunch options (a lot of the destination restaurants around there are simply too rich and heavy to eat on a regular basis), but that will come.

as far as infrastructure improvements, theyre already happening. both fulton and lake are torn up right now for new streetscapes. and what more do you want from the CTA? it already serves this area pretty well.

if anything its not "millennials" that are inconvenienced. its the senior staff that mostly takes metra in. im sure you'll probably start to see an increase in shuttle service, similar to those that serve 600 W Chicago and other more "remote" offices. but at least for the time being, parking isnt too bad some drive in and others have gotten in the habit of just getting on the CTA at clinton and taking it a stop over (and more to the point, how is this any more of a burden than getting off at Union Station and needing to walk all the way over to an office near Millennium Park?)

[k1052]

One other pet peeve: Many are being duped into believing that there are literally billions and billions of $ right around the corner in infrastructure improvements and new rail lines, stations, etc etc to the West Loop/Near West Side and Greater Downtown. WTF? How gullible can folks be? One would need to be completely ignorant of the fiscal situation and current local, state and federal politics to even entertain such a notion of something like that coming together in the next decade+.....

The smart players over the last year or so - and stretching for the next few, in all likelihood (as bubbles can inflate for quite a while before eventually being pricked) are those landowners/property owners who are now selling.....the time to buy in Fulton Market/Far West Loop for the most part ended a year or two ago.....

None of the landlords we talked to pitched anything like what you describe and I was present. Of course they noted the newish Morgan stop, bus access, walk distances, etc but we were already well aware since we've been in the area so long.

[KWILLSKYLINE]

March 2015
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4176/34370488362_c3b2135b84_h.jpg

May 2017
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4186/34145894090_6cbc855434_h.jpg

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4168/34370490102_ec8d962193_h.jpg

Now that is artwork. preserve, preserve, preserve. Nice shots again harry.

[SamInTheLoop]

^^ ^^^ I'm not talking about small-scale, boutiquey-type offices, just to be clear. They of course have a place very much so, just as they do in central and northern River North, and other parts of non-Loop greater downtown. I'm very much talking about office buildings containing hundreds of thousands of sq ft, and designed to house corporate HQs or large regional offices (which would ideally draw employees of all ages and family statuses, etc, from the entire metro area, ideally meaning lots and lots of metra commuters from many different suburban locations/directions.

And I'm not talking about $5 or $50 or even $500 million infrastructure projects - you're talking about a little streetscape improvement.. That doesn't cut it. I'm talking about new rail lines and large stations/hubs etc. Think $5 bil. $10 bil. etc. In other words, real infrastructure that would be required to make this a truly credible focal point of large scale office employment for the region. Some folks are out there selling stuff like this as if it's actually remotely feasible in the next 10-15 years. It is not coming.

[k1052]

(which would ideally draw employees of all ages and family statuses, etc, from the entire metro area, ideally meaning lots and lots of metra commuters from many different suburban locations/directions.


I think this is a flaw in your assumptions. Companies aren't moving in from the suburbs to make things easier on their suburban employees. They're moving in to access the urban workforce that is young, has they skills they need, and doesn't want to commute to the burbs.

[LouisVanDerWright]

Also, just to expound on the current strong River North Office submarket. One needs to realize that 98% of River North's high quality office space is located within about ~2 blocks of the river (probably 90% within 1 block) in it's very large and/or trophy towers......in other words, the very closest part to the Loop proper......

Well that's patently false, 600 W Chicago alone is 2,000,000 SF of office which beats out 300 N LaSalle as the largest office building in River North (excluding Merch Mart which is kinda of an office building now, but just a totally unique property not just in River North, but perhaps globally). I have a hard time believing that 2,000,000 SF is less than 2% of the "high quality office space" in RN. I also don't believe that it's the only building outside of 2 blocks North of the River that counts as "high quality office space" whatever that means. 600 W Chicago has been operating as an office building for over a decade now with stunning success. That just goes to show that proximity to commuter rail isn't everything for office leasing and is further from the commuter rail stations than almost anything in the West Loop.

North Michigan Ave and Illnois Center started being built up on expectation of a subway line that never materialized. Then the golden age of the suburb and automobile (1980's and 1990's) led people to believe that transit access simply no longer mattered at all. So you got buildings like 900 N Michigan that were several blocks from even the nearest L stations with a big chunk of office space served primarily by a nasty ass garage at the base. Even then though, no one ever expected N Michigan Ave to supplant the loop, it just became an acceptable place to build such things because 90% of the workers were coming in by car from the burbs and the other 10% were taking the red line from Lincoln Park.

Part of the reason (in addition to falling for a fashion, which by definition is short-termist) - and this is being overlooked somewhat - that some of these larger tenants are allowing themselves to be duped into going to Fulton market area is that it is quite a bit cheaper. That specific short-termism is factoring into the equation for what is in reality quite a long-term decision.....

Wait until we get another couple back-to-back polar vortex winters........watch the millenials cycle and walk across the expressway then.......there will be major buyer's remorse - again, maybe in 5 years, maybe in as long as 15 - but it will come....

Better to be "short-termist" than stuck in the 2000's. If prices are low now and what you are saying about it being a truly undesirable area is true, then prices will stay low. Simple economics. However, I believe you are not looking towards the future, but rather living in the past. If there is another polar vortex do you think the employees at Google are going to even leave the house to go in to the office? Or do you think that the defining trends that have shaped the office market beginning in the 1990's, you know the whole hotel stations and work from home, will continue?

Is it possible that the willingness of certain companies to locate in places like River North or West Loop is linked to the ongoing evolution of these trends? Maybe my buddy who works at Salesforce doesn't give a rats ass that there is no easy way to get to Illinois and LaSalle from Schaumberg because he works from home all but three or four days a year and lives in Logan Square? Maybe workers at one of the premier bike parts manufacturers in the world, Sram, don't care how close 1K Fulton is to Ogalvie because, unlike their parents who take the Metra in from Bartlett every day, they live in Avondale and bike to work every day, regardless of weather. Again, that's not a supposition, another friend of mine works at Sram and bikes from Avondale every day.

Perhaps employees at Google feel the same way about the West Loop, if they absolutely have to go into the office to work and it's -20 degrees, it's not like they can remotely call a car to exactly where they are and have it drive them to 20 feet outside of their office lobby. An Uber from Union Station to 1K Fulton is probably $2-5 depending on time of day and surge pricing. That's competitive with the price of a bus ride but involves way less walking. Same goes for McDonalds which is by far the most "conventional" tenant that has located there, their employees will adapt, they will move downtown or to the neighborhoods, they will learn to take the bus or an Uber if it's shitty outside or a Divvy if it's nice out. That's the future, offices are less critical to most worker's lives, short trips are cheap and convenient, new forms of transportation are radically changing the world, companies are cutting costs to make the most of these changes.



One other pet peeve: Many are being duped into believing that there are literally billions and billions of $ right around the corner in infrastructure improvements and new rail lines, stations, etc etc to the West Loop/Near West Side and Greater Downtown. WTF? How gullible can folks be? One would need to be completely ignorant of the fiscal situation and current local, state and federal politics to even entertain such a notion of something like that coming together in the next decade+.....

Literally no one is saying this. Are you confusing this with the very real transit investment that did occur at Morgan? I don't think McDonalds thinks a circle line is coming to the West Loop or that Ogalvie will be relocated to Morgan and Kinzie. Where are you getting this stuff from?

What I think is that McDonalds, being one of the most successful, dynamic, and influential companies in history, see's the writing on the wall and knows that the times, they are a changin'. They have the foresight to see that the world is moving from an economy based on old school retail sales in a brand centric environment to one that is fixated on authenticity and experiential sales. They see the West Loop for what it is: the nexus of all that in Chicago. They know they need to not only study it from afar, but actually infuse that new culture into their company if they want to stay on top of the heap for the next generation. So to the West Loop they go. Besides, you talk of these moves as if all these companies were once right on top of the L at Jackson and Wells and are now sacrificing access to infrastructure. I mean have you been to the McDonalds campus? It doesn't have access to shit. They could literally have moved to any location within two miles of the Sears Tower and have had better access to transit infrastructure than they did before. Building an all new suburban style campus on the freight yards on Western South of Tri Taylor would have been a better option than they have now. Building in Lawndale on the Brach's site would have been better. Anywhere but fucking Oak Brook. But what stopped them from moving to the Loop? Well you already said, they are accustomed to Oak Brook lease rates. So the new West Loop office market has stuck the happy medium of being as close to downtown, metra, CTA, and freeways as possible while also offering them real estate costs that fit their model and are acceptable to their shareholders.

Not only are you wrong about the West Loop, but it makes perfect sense within the same parameters you use to knock tenants entering the market.

[maru2501]

:machinegun:

[the urban politician]

Missing his point. North Michigan Avenue has one of (probably THE weakest) the weakest office markets in downtown.....yet, a few decades ago, it was the 'obvious' new office submarket of the future. That didn't pan out, of course, but it took some time for that to become obvious (longer for some than others). Know your fundamentals.....know your fashions......know the difference........

I find you also somewhat conflate the residential and office markets....

Also, just to expound on the current strong River North Office submarket. One needs to realize that 98% of River North's high quality office space is located within about ~2 blocks of the river (probably 90% within 1 block) in it's very large and/or trophy towers......in other words, the very closest part to the Loop proper......

Part of the reason (in addition to falling for a fashion, which by definition is short-termist) - and this is being overlooked somewhat - that some of these larger tenants are allowing themselves to be duped into going to Fulton market area is that it is quite a bit cheaper. That specific short-termism is factoring into the equation for what is in reality quite a long-term decision.....

Wait until we get another couple back-to-back polar vortex winters........watch the millenials cycle and walk across the expressway then.......there will be major buyer's remorse - again, maybe in 5 years, maybe in as long as 15 - but it will come....

One other pet peeve: Many are being duped into believing that there are literally billions and billions of $ right around the corner in infrastructure improvements and new rail lines, stations, etc etc to the West Loop/Near West Side and Greater Downtown. WTF? How gullible can folks be? One would need to be completely ignorant of the fiscal situation and current local, state and federal politics to even entertain such a notion of something like that coming together in the next decade+.....

The smart players over the last year or so - and stretching for the next few, in all likelihood (as bubbles can inflate for quite a while before eventually being pricked) are those landowners/property owners who are now selling.....the time to buy in Fulton Market/Far West Loop for the most part ended a year or two ago.....

Im not saying the the West Loop will replace the Loop as Chicago's primary office district. I'm just saying that the West Loop will become an office district. We can argue till we're blue, but it's becoming one before our very eyes.

North Michigan Avenue may be a weak submarket, but it's still a submarket. It's 19% vacant, which means it's 81% occupied. That's a shitload of utilized office space and those companies can't be discounted just because they don't suit your paradigm.

Like any submarket, there will be overshoots and corrections. Michigan Avenue will do the same, perhaps more hotel conversions.

I get this--real estate is pretty damn simple. I have zero trouble understanding these rather simple concepts. This isn't quantum physics.

[SamInTheLoop]

I think this is a flaw in your assumptions. Companies aren't moving in from the suburbs to make things easier on their suburban employees. They're moving in to access the urban workforce that is young, has they skills they need, and doesn't want to commute to the burbs.


That's not my assumption. Obviously not easier on suburban employees - but they should be trying to make it reasonable for commuters - emphasis on SHOULD - see Mr D's comments on this topic and actual corporate motivations regarding location decisions, as he nails it. What many of these companies are doing is not truly planning for the long-term. They're jumping on 'what's hot now'! Pop quiz folks: Where do you think most millennials will be living in 2030? You know - when they're in their 40s? If you answered 'the suburbs', you win!

[Via Chicago]

Pop quiz folks: Where do you think most millennials will be living in 2030? You know - when they're in their 40s? If you answered 'the suburbs', you win!

and where do you think the new 26 year olds with in demand skills will be living?

you're quibbling about a distance of less than a mile in a city with a vast number of transportation options available to workers, many of which serve the neighborhood in question. or we can sit here and pretend like Fulton Market/West Loop is such a massive inconvenience for everyone to get to from across the region compared to Oak Brook or Schaumburg. tell me how many transit lines serve those locations, and then lets debate which is the better long term trend.


how will the poor suburbanites ever navigate this insurmountable hurdle???

https://s14.postimg.org/rfnp2kshd/2017-05-08_13_42_35-_Ogilvie_Transportation_Cente.png

[harryc]

^^^ Boy wouldn't it be cool if there was a walkway between the old CNW tracks and the El platform - it could even be called the North West Passage.

I recall one there in the '60s

[k1052]

how will the poor suburbanites ever navigate this insurmountable hurdle???


They don't. I frequently pass their frozen mummified bodies huddled for warmth on the Kennedy overpasses.

[k1052]

That's not my assumption. Obviously not easier on suburban employees - but they should be trying to make it reasonable for commuters - emphasis on SHOULD - see Mr D's comments on this topic and actual corporate motivations regarding location decisions, as he nails it. What many of these companies are doing is not truly planning for the long-term. They're jumping on 'what's hot now'! Pop quiz folks: Where do you think most millennials will be living in 2030? You know - when they're in their 40s? If you answered 'the suburbs', you win!

Unless there is some major re-embracing of getting hitched in your early 20s and immediately moving out to the suburbs then the cities are still going to be the place to recruit young talent.

I'm still perplexed why comparable walking distances to say River North along the river itself are somehow fine but to the West Loop aren't.

[Vlajos]

Ignore millennials for the moment. The City has seen strong growth of high income families. You can see this in the multiple CPS turnaround stories. I'm not sure why Sam in the Loop thinks this will stop. If anything, the opposite is happening.

[the urban politician]

He or his company obviously have some sort of vested interest in south Loop real estate, and they see the West Loop boom as some sort of threat to that

[LouisVanDerWright]

I used to work with a bunch of curmudgeonly middle aged coots (which I'm starting to suspect is the demographic Sam falls into) on office and industrial projects in the burbs and they all insisted "as soon as your generation gets married you'll move to the burbs!" Then I told them almost every property I was leasing was to young married , engaged, or soon to be engaged couples. So the line became "As soon as you kids have kids you'll be back!" Then came the strollers all over Logan Square. Now the response is "As soon as your kids turn five you will have to move to a better school district out of the city!"

Well now I'm starting to see double strollers and Mom's with 3 or four year old kids all up and down Milwaukee Ave. Where is the suburban gold rush? It's not gonna happen. If anything we will start moving to lower density neighborhoods like Portage Park or Bemont Cragin where the schools are still OK and you can get a SFH for $400k and revitalize those areas next. In fact I know three prominent hipster couples (and by prominent I mean they own or founded major hipster businesses in places like Logan or Pilsen ) who have moved to Jeff Park or portage in the last 6 months. They all have 2-3 children and are worth well north of $1 million. They could easily have decamped to Barrington or Wilmette years ago but don't want to leave the city. I'm sure as hell not going anywhere after I get married next summer, my fiancee and I are actually shopping for another property to use her FHA loan on and are considering McKinnley and Bridgeport because I can't justify paying the prices they are asking in Logan after I got in on my other properties at a quarter or fitth the price at the bottom.

[SamInTheLoop]

Unless there is some major re-embracing of getting hitched in your early 20s and immediately moving out to the suburbs then the cities are still going to be the place to recruit young talent.

I'm still perplexed why comparable walking distances to say River North along the river itself are somehow fine but to the West Loop aren't.


I am most certainly not making an anti-city argument....

Part of what's going on now simply has to do with the relative sizes of the respective generations - in other words, Millennial generation is much larger than Generation X.....X is definitely moving to the suburbs (no, of course not everybody), but it's overshadowed by the great bulge of the millennials......once the millennials get to be in their 30s-40s, the movement to the suburbs will be MUCH more impactful.....

[the urban politician]

I used to work with a bunch of curmudgeonly middle aged coots (which I'm starting to suspect is the demographic Sam falls into) on office and industrial projects in the burbs and they all insisted "as soon as your generation gets married you'll move to the burbs!" Then I told them almost every property I was leasing was to young married , engaged, or soon to be engaged couples. So the line became "As soon as you kids have kids you'll be back!" Then came the strollers all over Logan Square. Now the response is "As soon as your kids turn five you will have to move to a better school district out of the city!"

Well now I'm starting to see double strollers and Mom's with 3 or four year old kids all up and down Milwaukee Ave. Where is the suburban gold rush? It's not gonna happen. If anything we will start moving to lower density neighborhoods like Portage Park or Bemont Cragin where the schools are still OK and you can get a SFH for $400k and revitalize those areas next. In fact I know three prominent hipster couples (and by prominent I mean they own or founded major hipster businesses in places like Logan or Pilsen ) who have moved to Jeff Park or portage in the last 6 months. They all have 2-3 children and are worth well north of $1 million. They could easily have decamped to Barrington or Wilmette years ago but don't want to leave the city. I'm sure as hell not going anywhere after I get married next summer, my fiancee and I are actually shopping for another property to use her FHA loan on and are considering McKinnley and Bridgeport because I can't justify paying the prices they are asking in Logan after I got in on my other properties at a quarter or fitth the price at the bottom.

Sorry but you're way off on this. 95% of these folks will still be in the burbs. Including you ;)

[SamInTheLoop]

Ignore millennials for the moment. The City has seen strong growth of high income families. You can see this in the multiple CPS turnaround stories. I'm not sure why Sam in the Loop thinks this will stop. If anything, the opposite is happening.

Never made such a claim.

[SamInTheLoop]

Well that's patently false, 600 W Chicago alone is 2,000,000 SF of office which beats out 300 N LaSalle as the largest office building in River North (excluding Merch Mart which is kinda of an office building now, but just a totally unique property not just in River North, but perhaps globally). I have a hard time believing that 2,000,000 SF is less than 2% of the "high quality office space" in RN. I also don't believe that it's the only building outside of 2 blocks North of the River that counts as "high quality office space" whatever that means. 600 W Chicago has been operating as an office building for over a decade now with stunning success. That just goes to show that proximity to commuter rail isn't everything for office leasing and is further from the commuter rail stations than almost anything in the West Loop.

North Michigan Ave and Illnois Center started being built up on expectation of a subway line that never materialized. Then the golden age of the suburb and automobile (1980's and 1990's) led people to believe that transit access simply no longer mattered at all. So you got buildings like 900 N Michigan that were several blocks from even the nearest L stations with a big chunk of office space served primarily by a nasty ass garage at the base. Even then though, no one ever expected N Michigan Ave to supplant the loop, it just became an acceptable place to build such things because 90% of the workers were coming in by car from the burbs and the other 10% were taking the red line from Lincoln Park.



Better to be "short-termist" than stuck in the 2000's. If prices are low now and what you are saying about it being a truly undesirable area is true, then prices will stay low. Simple economics. However, I believe you are not looking towards the future, but rather living in the past. If there is another polar vortex do you think the employees at Google are going to even leave the house to go in to the office? Or do you think that the defining trends that have shaped the office market beginning in the 1990's, you know the whole hotel stations and work from home, will continue?

Is it possible that the willingness of certain companies to locate in places like River North or West Loop is linked to the ongoing evolution of these trends? Maybe my buddy who works at Salesforce doesn't give a rats ass that there is no easy way to get to Illinois and LaSalle from Schaumberg because he works from home all but three or four days a year and lives in Logan Square? Maybe workers at one of the premier bike parts manufacturers in the world, Sram, don't care how close 1K Fulton is to Ogalvie because, unlike their parents who take the Metra in from Bartlett every day, they live in Avondale and bike to work every day, regardless of weather. Again, that's not a supposition, another friend of mine works at Sram and bikes from Avondale every day.

Perhaps employees at Google feel the same way about the West Loop, if they absolutely have to go into the office to work and it's -20 degrees, it's not like they can remotely call a car to exactly where they are and have it drive them to 20 feet outside of their office lobby. An Uber from Union Station to 1K Fulton is probably $2-5 depending on time of day and surge pricing. That's competitive with the price of a bus ride but involves way less walking. Same goes for McDonalds which is by far the most "conventional" tenant that has located there, their employees will adapt, they will move downtown or to the neighborhoods, they will learn to take the bus or an Uber if it's shitty outside or a Divvy if it's nice out. That's the future, offices are less critical to most worker's lives, short trips are cheap and convenient, new forms of transportation are radically changing the world, companies are cutting costs to make the most of these changes.





Literally no one is saying this. Are you confusing this with the very real transit investment that did occur at Morgan? I don't think McDonalds thinks a circle line is coming to the West Loop or that Ogalvie will be relocated to Morgan and Kinzie. Where are you getting this stuff from?

What I think is that McDonalds, being one of the most successful, dynamic, and influential companies in history, see's the writing on the wall and knows that the times, they are a changin'. They have the foresight to see that the world is moving from an economy based on old school retail sales in a brand centric environment to one that is fixated on authenticity and experiential sales. They see the West Loop for what it is: the nexus of all that in Chicago. They know they need to not only study it from afar, but actually infuse that new culture into their company if they want to stay on top of the heap for the next generation. So to the West Loop they go. Besides, you talk of these moves as if all these companies were once right on top of the L at Jackson and Wells and are now sacrificing access to infrastructure. I mean have you been to the McDonalds campus? It doesn't have access to shit. They could literally have moved to any location within two miles of the Sears Tower and have had better access to transit infrastructure than they did before. Building an all new suburban style campus on the freight yards on Western South of Tri Taylor would have been a better option than they have now. Building in Lawndale on the Brach's site would have been better. Anywhere but fucking Oak Brook. But what stopped them from moving to the Loop? Well you already said, they are accustomed to Oak Brook lease rates. So the new West Loop office market has stuck the happy medium of being as close to downtown, metra, CTA, and freeways as possible while also offering them real estate costs that fit their model and are acceptable to their shareholders.

Not only are you wrong about the West Loop, but it makes perfect sense within the same parameters you use to knock tenants entering the market.


Such a long screed of mostly nonsense, one doesn't know where to start.

One question: What is it about McDonald's under-construction HQ building that is remotely authentic? The answer of course is nothing. There's a lot of obvious faux-authenticity that's being sold by the unscrupulous and purchased by the gullible/unsophisticated here in the Fulton Market area....

Also, Merchandise Mary is very much an office building today....and, I think of River North's northern boundary as being Chicago....

[SamInTheLoop]

He or his company obviously have some sort of vested interest in south Loop real estate, and they see the West Loop boom as some sort of threat to that


No - not at all. I'll say it again - my comments re the far west loop are solely targeted at its misuse by some as an appropriate location for large scale office employment concentration. The South Loop is an even less appropriate location for same....

[SamInTheLoop]

I used to work with a bunch of curmudgeonly middle aged coots (which I'm starting to suspect is the demographic Sam falls into) on office and industrial projects in the burbs and they all insisted "as soon as your generation gets married you'll move to the burbs!" Then I told them almost every property I was leasing was to young married , engaged, or soon to be engaged couples. So the line became "As soon as you kids have kids you'll be back!" Then came the strollers all over Logan Square. Now the response is "As soon as your kids turn five you will have to move to a better school district out of the city!"

Well now I'm starting to see double strollers and Mom's with 3 or four year old kids all up and down Milwaukee Ave. Where is the suburban gold rush? It's not gonna happen. If anything we will start moving to lower density neighborhoods like Portage Park or Bemont Crayon where the schools are still OK and you can get a SFH for $400k and revitalize those areas next. In fact I know three prominent hipster couples (and by prominent I mean they own or founded major hipster businesses in places like Logan or Pilsen ) who have moved to Jeff Park or portage in the last 6 months. They all have 2-3 children and are worth well north of $1 million. They could easily have decamped to Barrington or Wilmette years ago but don't want to leave the city. I'm sure as hell not going anywhere after I get married next summer, my fiancee and I are actually shopping for another property to use her FHA loan on and are considering McKinnley and Bridgeport because I can't justify paying the prices they are asking in Logan after I got in on my other properties at a quarter or fitth the price at the bottom.

Not middle-aged....a bit younger than that still....curmudgeonly? Maybe a little!

Nobody is saying that no young families are staying in the city...they are, and more than in recent decades, for sure.....however they most certainly continue to be outweighed by those that are moving to the burbs....

[Rizzo]

how will the poor suburbanites ever navigate this insurmountable hurdle???

https://s14.postimg.org/rfnp2kshd/2017-05-08_13_42_35-_Ogilvie_Transportation_Cente.png

I don't know how much I got out of my classes that dealt with transportation psychology but this would kind of suck. Car to the Metra station, Metra to outside, up onto a cta platform, wait, board train, walk to office. What a pain in mid-January.

[left of center]

^ For a few dollars more, this can be done with Uber as well, with the added bonus of being dropped off right in front of the office doors as well.

[the urban politician]

A lot of this can be solved with more seamless Metra/CTA connections

[emathias]

I don't know how much I got out of my classes that dealt with transportation psychology but this would kind of suck. Car to the Metra station, Metra to outside, up onto a cta platform, wait, board train, walk to office. What a pain in mid-January.

It would suck. I, someone who has always either had a single-seat ride to the office or could walk, would really dislike it. But people do have similar commutes every day. I mean, I've known people who lived in Lakeview and took 75 minute transit commutes to the suburbs every day. I'm constantly surprised by some people's tolerance of commutes I'd rather be unemployed than endure. I mean, I've worked with people who had two-hour commutes (one direction). I can't even imagine why they thought that was a tolerable thing to endure regardless of their life situation.

[emathias]

Sorry but you're way off on this. 95% of these folks will still be in the burbs. Including you ;)

I think 95% is too high of a number. It's greater than 50%, I'd grant you that, but it's not 95%, either.

My oldest friend here in the city just had a beautiful daughter with his partner and I don't see them going to the suburbs. They live in Lincoln Park in one of those townhomes on Lincoln, and have the income to raise the kid in the city. He is definitely a city person, and while she is less dedicated to living in the city, I think she is totally game for making city life work long-term. They're not alone.

Another college friend of mine lives in Bucktown in a two-flat. They have a daughter who's about 10 and I don't see them moving to the suburbs, either. She would totally be game for moving to the suburbs, and he grew up in Glenview, but I really think they're staying in the city.

This is my world. Anecdotal, for sure, but I can't be alone in this experience. The suburbs are still a strong draw, but there are a lot of people in my generation (I'm 43) and younger who are dedicated to making city life work.

[emathias]

Such a long screed of mostly nonsense, one doesn't know where to start.

One question: What is it about McDonald's under-construction HQ building that is remotely authentic? The answer of course is nothing. There's a lot of obvious faux-authenticity that's being sold by the unscrupulous and purchased by the gullible/unsophisticated here in the Fulton Market area....

Also, Merchandise Mary is very much an office building today....and, I think of River North's northern boundary as being Chicago....

I consider Chicago to be the northern boundary, too, except for those buildings along Kingsbury, because a) they're literally on the River, and b) they're isolated from anything else, and c) they're tied to the rest of River North more than anything else.

[Rizzo]

^ For a few dollars more, this can be done with Uber as well, with the added bonus of being dropped off right in front of the office doors as well.

Very true. At the time, the final mile was difficult to solve. But now we have on-demand vehicles and bikeshare, which seeemed like a distant concept over a decade ago. I've always felt I needed to go more than two stations to make a CTA rail trip justified. I'm not talking convenience but justifying that add monthly pass

[emathias]

Very true. At the time, the final mile was difficult to solve. But now we have on-demand vehicles and bikeshare, which seeemed like a distant concept over a decade ago. I've always felt I needed to go more than two stations to make a CTA rail trip justified. I'm not talking convenience but justifying that add monthly pass

I have a friend who lives in Lakeview and works for Google. He normally just bikes down Halsted, and in terrible weather, takes the Halsted bus.

[JK47]

I think 95% is too high of a number. It's greater than 50%, I'd grant you that, but it's not 95%, either.

My oldest friend here in the city just had a beautiful daughter with his partner and I don't see them going to the suburbs. They live in Lincoln Park in one of those townhomes on Lincoln, and have the income to raise the kid in the city. He is definitely a city person, and while she is less dedicated to living in the city, I think she is totally game for making city life work long-term. They're not alone.

Another college friend of mine lives in Bucktown in a two-flat. They have a daughter who's about 10 and I don't see them moving to the suburbs, either. She would totally be game for moving to the suburbs, and he grew up in Glenview, but I really think they're staying in the city.

This is my world. Anecdotal, for sure, but I can't be alone in this experience. The suburbs are still a strong draw, but there are a lot of people in my generation (I'm 43) and younger who are dedicated to making city life work.


Out of my peer group only one couple has moved to the suburbs to raise their kid (and they kind of regret it since no one else followed). Everyone else bought a larger home and settled down someplace near a decent school. It's definitely not the way it was when I was a child where nearly everyone moved out to the suburbs.

[JK47]

It would suck. I, someone who has always either had a single-seat ride to the office or could walk, would really dislike it. But people do have similar commutes every day. I mean, I've known people who lived in Lakeview and took 75 minute transit commutes to the suburbs every day. I'm constantly surprised by some people's tolerance of commutes I'd rather be unemployed than endure. I mean, I've worked with people who had two-hour commutes (one direction). I can't even imagine why they thought that was a tolerable thing to endure regardless of their life situation.


My sister's commute is the worst I've heard about. Lives in Western Massachusetts and works in New Haven Connecticut. Literally crosses the entire width of Connecticut twice each work day (1.5 to 2 hours each way).

[ardecila]

^^^ Boy wouldn't it be cool if there was a walkway between the old CNW tracks and the El platform - it could even be called the North West Passage.

I recall one there in the '60s

It didn't really save any time vs. just walking up Clinton Street, which is why RTA sacrificed it for an extra station track back in the 80s.

Unless your train happened to arrive on Track 1, you still had to descend down to the commuter concourse and back up to the passage - or walk all the way to the foot of the platform and over to the passage. Not super convenient.

Now, if they put in a footbridge spanning the station like this one (http://www.aecom.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Denver_Union_Station_201405_6-797x531.jpg) in Denver, that might actually save some time.

[Kenmore]

Sorry but you're way off on this. 95% of these folks will still be in the burbs. Including you ;)

you finally got one right

it's unpopular among the people who post here but it's true, when the kids hit school age, all the middle class people leave

[harryc]

you finally got one right

it's unpopular among the people who post here but it's true, when the kids hit school age, all the middle class people leave

Times are changing - back when we started having kids (22 yrs ago) a baby in a stroller was a real rare sight on Belmont ave, I recall one night with 2 groups of very different bar-goers being totally surprised that somebody had a baby out on Belmont - she loved the music coming from Berlin - not so much that from the Blues bar.

Now the same street is crowded with strollers and toddlers chained together in packs for day-care.

We did move to Oak Park, for the schools.

[ithakas]

Looks like the LG Printers Row proposal is dead: http://www.sloopin.com/2017/05/no-more-micro-apartments-for-printers.html

[harryc]

May 5
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4189/34392540292_4019592911_h.jpg

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4171/34512635206_bc3f13979a_k.jpg

[J_M_Tungsten]

^excuse me, your cores are showing.

[LouisVanDerWright]

I am most certainly not making an anti-city argument....

Part of what's going on now simply has to do with the relative sizes of the respective generations - in other words, Millennial generation is much larger than Generation X.....X is definitely moving to the suburbs (no, of course not everybody), but it's overshadowed by the great bulge of the millennials......once the millennials get to be in their 30s-40s, the movement to the suburbs will be MUCH more impactful.....

Never made such a claim.

Sure you didn't, that's why you literally suggest that it all comes down to generation sizes in literally the last post you made prior to denying this. Get used to it, just as there was a long term shift towards suburbanization in the middle and late 20th century, we are in a multidecade shift back to urban cores and no bullshit about "schools" or "millennials" is going to change that. The schools are bad because the parents of the kids in those schools can't provide the involvement and resources needed to give them a top notch education. If you transplanted all the children in Barrington High School into the worst CPS school in the city and swapped those kids out to Barrington, those school rankings would literally flip flop. It has nothing to do with funding or teachers or facilities or whatever, if you grow up with a single mom who works 3 jobs to barely scrape by and are pressured into gangs your entire childhood and get zero academic help outside of school hours, oh and by the way you don't know anyone who hasn't grown up this way, do you really think you are going to be an A+ student? It's possible to overcome it, but the odds are long. That's what is going on in CPS schools and that can change permanently just as quickly as the demographics of an area can change.

Such a long screed of mostly nonsense, one doesn't know where to start.

One question: What is it about McDonald's under-construction HQ building that is remotely authentic? The answer of course is nothing. There's a lot of obvious faux-authenticity that's being sold by the unscrupulous and purchased by the gullible/unsophisticated here in the Fulton Market area....

Also, Merchandise Mary is very much an office building today....and, I think of River North's northern boundary as being Chicago....

Nice red herring, I never said their new office space is authentic. I said they have realized that they need to be engaged with today's trends in dining and culture or they will lose out. What better place to do that than the nexus of that movement in the Midwest? If you really think that McDonalds, one of the largest restaurant chains in the world, isn't going to benefit by locating right in the middle of the foodie epicenter of the Midwest instead of fucking Oak Brook, then you are just insane.

This is why cities exist, agglomeration efficiencies. Being close to a boiling pot of creativity is much better than trying to watch it through binoculars from the prairie. I'm not saying the West Loop is the end all be all of culture or dining or something. This is simply why companies choose to locate close together. They are not distinct entities that stand alone, they are made up of people and those people interact with other people on a daily basis and absorb ideas and customs. This is called culture. Being isolated on a suburban campus breeds groupthink as you are not disseminating and absorbing ideas from outside of the company. This is not a radical theory, this is long accepted microeconomic firm theory.

Sorry but you're way off on this. 95% of these folks will still be in the burbs. Including you ;)

Not even remotely accurate, I already have half a dozen friends with kids in CPS that live in Avondale alone. Maybe my friend group is skewed, but the people I'm talking about range from neighbors I met just living here to friends of the family who I didn't talk to for years and they just happened to show up at Revolution Taproom while I was there. Furthest I would even move is Evanston or Oak Park, but outside of that I would never live in the suburbs. I would decamp to rural Wisconsin before I did that. But I digress, I have an aunt who owns a huge Four Square in Portage Park that has my name written all over it. I'll probably buy it from here and move there when she is ready to downsize in a few years. It's 4 beds 2.5 baths on a 40x125' lot. I would add an attic master suite in the attic making it 5 beds 3.5 baths. That would make it about 4,000 SF of living space. No need to go to the suburbs.

[JK47]

Not even remotely accurate, I already have half a dozen friends with kids in CPS that live in Avondale alone. Maybe my friend group is skewed, but the people I'm talking about range from neighbors I met just living here to friends of the family who I didn't talk to for years and they just happened to show up at Revolution Taproom while I was there. Furthest I would even move is Evanston or Oak Park, but outside of that I would never live in the suburbs. I would decamp to rural Wisconsin before I did that. But I digress, I have an aunt who owns a huge Four Square in Portage Park that has my name written all over it. I'll probably buy it from here and move there when she is ready to downsize in a few years. It's 4 beds 2.5 baths on a 40x125' lot. I would add an attic master suite in the attic making it 5 beds 3.5 baths. That would make it about 4,000 SF of living space. No need to go to the suburbs.


Yeah, if there was going to be a major shift towards the suburbs we'd be seeing it already. The leading edge of the millenial generation are hitting 35 to 36 years old right now so there'd be a large population of pre-school/kindergarten age children right now. Your experience with your social circle mirrors my own, people moving to the suburbs to raise a family are an outlier.

[Vlajos]

Yeah, if there was going to be a major shift towards the suburbs we'd be seeing it already. The leading edge of the millenial generation are hitting 35 to 36 years old right now so there'd be a large population of pre-school/kindergarten age children right now. Your experience with your social circle mirrors my own, people moving to the suburbs to raise a family are an outlier.

Every home sale in my neighborhood, the buyers are a young family, either with kids or ready to have kids. Our CPS neighborhood school has gone from 300 students and 90% low income to over 600 and 30% low income. House prices are rising fast.

[Via Chicago]

I don't know how much I got out of my classes that dealt with transportation psychology but this would kind of suck. Car to the Metra station, Metra to outside, up onto a cta platform, wait, board train, walk to office. What a pain in mid-January.

not as much as it would suck as trying to get to Oak Brook as a person who dosent own or want a car. at least someone has the OPTION to get to this office location without a car if they so choose

[Via Chicago]

One question: What is it about McDonald's under-construction HQ building that is remotely authentic? The answer of course is nothing. There's a lot of obvious faux-authenticity that's being sold by the unscrupulous and purchased by the gullible/unsophisticated here in the Fulton Market area....


what does this even mean. what does an "authentic" office look like?

to me, the "authentic" thing about living or working in a city like Chicago is that it exposes a person to people, classes, races, and lifestyles that are representative of America as a whole. and not just a walled off, isolated, plastic version of what America is perceived to be by a narrow segment of society. at best, by locating their office in the middle of an urban neighborhood as opposed to a far off suburban campus, their employees will become more worldly and aware of how they fit into it. of course, the irony is that gentrification also displaces that diversity just as it tries to embrace it. i dont have the answer necessarily. but on the whole, locating an office in an area that is accessible to as many people from as many different means and walks of life as possible is only a good thing. again, quibbling about one additional 5 minute transfer for one specific subset of commuters, in the scheme of things, is missing the forest for the trees

[Vlajos]

This may be one of the most ridiculous conversations I've seen here. Chicago's CBD is the most easily accessible location to the most people in the entire metro area.

[Rizzo]

I have a friend who lives in Lakeview and works for Google. He normally just bikes down Halsted, and in terrible weather, takes the Halsted bus.

That would be me also, but most people think I'm crazy biking 6 miles in January

[Via Chicago]

This may be one of the most ridiculous conversations I've seen here. Chicago's CBD is the most easily accessible location to the most people in the entire metro area.

but the west loop is a 10 minute walk away from it!!!

[Vlajos]

but the west loop is a 10 minute walk away from it!!!

oh no!

[left of center]

City issues plan for 760 acres along Chicago River, likely to bring building boom



Billions of dollars in commercial real estate development, as well as new sports fields, bridges, a new Metra station and other infrastructure could soon be coming to a 3.7-mile stretch along the Chicago River, after the city on Monday unveiled its final draft of proposed zoning and land use changes.

....

The plan is expected to lead to a boom of construction projects roughly bordered by the river and Kennedy Expressway from Kinzie Street all the way north to Wrightwood Avenue. The framework has been in the works for about a year, in response to a wave of major real estate developments being drawn up in an area once dominated by manufacturers.

"I believe this could be the most significant change in zoning policy in the city in 30 years," said Mike Drew, principal at Structured Development. His firm has developed several properties in and around the industrial corridor, including the recently completed New City retail and residential project at Halsted Street and Clybourn Avenue.

"I think it has the opportunity to have the largest economic impact on the city since the development of Millennium Park," Drew said. "Millennium Park drove billions of dollars of development around it, and I think this initiative has the opportunity to dwarf that."

....

One other potential change could be relocating the current Metra train station at Elston and Armitage avenues about a block south to a building at Besly Court and Cortland Street that Sterling Bay owns, Hopkins said. That site also could be used to extend The 606 elevated trail east of the Kennedy Expressway, with the trail going over or under the new Metra station, Hopkins said.



http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-north-branch-chicago-river-development-ryan-ori-0509-biz-20170508-column.html



This seems pretty interesting. The city will be removing the PMD along the north branch of the river. The land in question also includes the old Finkl foundry that was vacated several years ago. City is looking to replace this land with more park space, including several sports fields, and residential and commercial development. The Armitage/Elston Metra station to be moved to a new location, and the possibility of extending the 606 eastward.

[Mr Downtown]

The plan proposes no new parks that I can see anywhere. It includes only the vague hope that developers will put some lawns next to their new buildings.

We've all seen how well that's worked out in the South Loop.

[PKDickman]

The plan proposes no new parks that I can see anywhere. It includes only the vague hope that developers will put some lawns next to their new buildings.

We've all seen how well that's worked out in the South Loop.

The plan called for open space of 45 ac along the river (works out to a 38 ft wide strip) and 11 ac of wetland. We had a sitdown with Hopkins last night over other issues, and he claimed us that they had just gotten a commitment from the city for 10 ac specifically for ball field type uses. This is for the overall district, not just Finkltown.
How much of that is bushwah? I don't know. I also know this is the first sort of commitment to go away, or end up as a ball field on the roof of a shopping mall.

[SolarWind]

May 8, 2017

http://i.imgur.com/mdJ0dkI.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/57cT85C.jpg

[SolarWind]

May 8, 2017

http://i.imgur.com/Ppu4TUj.jpg

[SolarWind]

May 8, 2017

http://i.imgur.com/vdPICjv.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/FWgjCxj.jpg

[SolarWind]

May 8, 2017

http://i.imgur.com/KQURx0J.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/DpsiX6p.jpg

[SolarWind]

May 8, 2017

http://i.imgur.com/VPBwGlt.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/eGAxb62.jpg

[SolarWind]

May 8, 2017

http://i.imgur.com/zv2Nqmx.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/qOhRogg.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/qdGFsyr.jpg

[SolarWind]

May 8, 2017

http://i.imgur.com/IPUV5kd.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/Am8G99P.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/UnB2OZp.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/64DORTr.jpg

[SolarWind]

May 8, 2017

http://i.imgur.com/euAOAtZ.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/ETcXFsi.jpg

Fulton Market lands another London hotel brand (http://www.chicagobusiness.com/realestate/20160413/CRED03/160419950/fulton-market-lands-another-london-hotel-brand)

[SolarWind]

May 8, 2017

http://i.imgur.com/xiQ2GeM.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/E7V088s.jpg

Prime real estate: Another Fulton Market meatpacker sells (http://www.chicagobusiness.com/realestate/20161025/CRED03/161029911/prime-real-estate-another-fulton-market-meatpacker-sells)

[SolarWind]

May 8, 2017

http://i.imgur.com/ZcTarGD.jpg

Work begins to rehab a pair of old Fulton Market buildings (https://chicago.curbed.com/2017/2/3/14497406/chicago-fulton-market-development-meatpacker-renovations)

[Skyguy_7]

Solid update, Solar. VERY professional providing a link for the story on each proposal. :cheers:

[harryc]

May 8
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4163/34573006345_476044c2cb_h.jpg

[aaron38]

Developer Says Check Out — And Clean Up — Largest Unbuilt Tract Downtown
https://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20170510/south-loop/antoin-tony-rezko-clark-roosevelt-related-midwest-new-neighborhood-cleanup

SOUTH LOOP — The developer who plans a new neighborhood along a massive piece of undeveloped South Loop riverfront invites neighbors to help clean the site up Saturday, hoping food trucks and a DJ will sweeten the offer.

[Skyguy_7]

^Great concept, but it will take more than food and jamz for me to clean up syringes, pee bottles and bum poo. Kudos to those who show up though.

[Jim in Chicago]

Developer Says Check Out — And Clean Up — Largest Unbuilt Tract Downtown
https://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20170510/south-loop/antoin-tony-rezko-clark-roosevelt-related-midwest-new-neighborhood-cleanup

^Great concept, but it will take more than food and jamz for me to clean up syringes, pee bottles and bum poo. Kudos to those who show up though.

Some developer has been reading too much Tom Sawyer. My response is HELL NO, if he has enough money to develop the massive space he can spend a few bucks to clean it up. Jeez.

[Near North Resident]

Yeah, if there was going to be a major shift towards the suburbs we'd be seeing it already. The leading edge of the millenial generation are hitting 35 to 36 years old right now so there'd be a large population of pre-school/kindergarten age children right now. Your experience with your social circle mirrors my own, people moving to the suburbs to raise a family are an outlier.

A large percentage of my friends have moved out of town :shrug:

[KWILLSKYLINE]

^Great concept, but it will take more than food and jamz for me to clean up syringes, pee bottles and bum poo. Kudos to those who show up though.

Dont forget about the bloated dead rats. haha. Now whose hungry? I bet when they start digging up that shorline they will find some cool artifacts that havnt been touched in ages. Wasn't it the Spire site where they found that anchor from a boat from the 1800's. Pretty cool. Hope they put it in the Chicago Bridges Museum.

[harryc]

^Great concept, but it will take more than food and jamz for me to clean up syringes, pee bottles and bum poo. Kudos to those who show up though.

Seems like a good attempt at getting the neighborhood to buy into the idea of "relocating" the squatters and vagrants.

[LouisVanDerWright]

The West Loop is a freaking inferno right now. I don't think I've ever seen such a boom, even in places like NYC and Denver. So much redevelopment in such a tight area. That's saying something too because there are parts of Denver that have half a dozen cranes in a 3x6 block area right now.

[LouisVanDerWright]

May 8, 2017

http://i.imgur.com/euAOAtZ.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/ETcXFsi.jpg

Fulton Market lands another London hotel brand (http://www.chicagobusiness.com/realestate/20160413/CRED03/160419950/fulton-market-lands-another-london-hotel-brand)

Is this already approved?

http://www.chicagobusiness.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/storyimage/CG/20160413/CRED03/160419950/AR/0/soho-house-hotels-futon-london-shapack.jpg&maxw=600&q=100&cb=20170510171254&cci_ts=20160413112955
Crains

Apparently it is a Morris Adjmi design which is pretty sweet.

[Rizzo]

Some developer has been reading too much Tom Sawyer. My response is HELL NO, if he has enough money to develop the massive space he can spend a few bucks to clean it up. Jeez.

I'm only reading what I'm reading so maybe there's more to it, but this seems insanely irresponsible.

You know there's your typical community service chores picking up trash or painting a wall or bench which understandably carry little risk. I'm sure we've all done it for our town or cities. But this case is different!

It's an old industrial site or rail yard with a history of dumping and unpermitted camping? Those hold harmless waivers may list known risks, but the unknown are most dangerous. And nearly free labor for a large profit driven entity?!

I recall news from time to time "volunteers unknowing exposed to.......". I knew someone cleaning up debris in a building caked in asbestos. None of the volunteers had proper rated masks. Even when I visited job sites for surveying with an industrial past, proper clothing was required. You just never know what could be stepped on or the dust or debris you'll carry home with you.

Maybe I'm being a little over the top here. But when you mix free cleanup labor + industrial site = problems. My attorneys would be saying "don't do this!"

My suggestion would be a developer sponsored event helping clean up Ping Tom park where necessary. It's safe and you can promote the property next door.

[Busy Bee]

Love Morris Adjmi

[the urban politician]

The West Loop is a freaking inferno right now. I don't think I've ever seen such a boom, even in places like NYC and Denver. So much redevelopment in such a tight area. That's saying something too because there are parts of Denver that have half a dozen cranes in a 3x6 block area right now.

What excites me isn't just the sheer amount of investment, but that we are seeing the creation of a giant new district, one that likely will bring in a lot of outsiders, before our very eyes.

[Kenmore]

I'm only reading what I'm reading so maybe there's more to it, but this seems insanely irresponsible.

You know there's your typical community service chores picking up trash or painting a wall or bench which understandably carry little risk. I'm sure we've all done it for our town or cities. But this case is different!

It's an old industrial site or rail yard with a history of dumping and unpermitted camping? Those hold harmless waivers may list known risks, but the unknown are most dangerous. And nearly free labor for a large profit driven entity?!

I recall news from time to time "volunteers unknowing exposed to.......". I knew someone cleaning up debris in a building caked in asbestos. None of the volunteers had proper rated masks. Even when I visited job sites for surveying with an industrial past, proper clothing was required. You just never know what could be stepped on or the dust or debris you'll carry home with you.

Maybe I'm being a little over the top here. But when you mix free cleanup labor + industrial site = problems. My attorneys would be saying "don't do this!"

My suggestion would be a developer sponsored event helping clean up Ping Tom park where necessary. It's safe and you can promote the property next door.

so much this

[woodrow]

Guys - the Related river clean up is associated with Chicago River Day. There are an expected 2000 people volunteering at 60 different sites. The event is in it's 25th year. The DNAInfo article talks about it. Friends of the Chicago River organize it - http://www.chicagoriver.org/get-involved/volunteer/chicago-river-day

And you better believe you sign a waiver.