Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Acajack

On other forums where the issues of 2020-2021 are more actively discussed than here, I swear Québécois francophones are often spoken about in terms you'd think you would be reserved for people like the Han Chinese. You'd think Tremblays and Gagnons number in the hundreds of millions (or a billion), that they possess the nuclear bomb, and control a superpower state that intimidates and threatens its neighbours extra-territorially, and throws its weight around globally both subtly and not-so-subtly.

Québec über alles I tell ya. They got us all figured out.

(I wouldn't be surprised that peoples like the Swedes and Dutch get spoken about in those terms as well these days, by at least some people when discussing the issues I am referring to.)

??

I don't understand your post. Han Chinese? Surely not Chinese Canadians. You mean, China, right? Which has nukes? Well so does France. A country also known to have thrown its weight around from time to time. What exactly is the point you are trying to make here?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

??

I don't understand your post. Han Chinese? Surely not Chinese Canadians. You mean, China, right? Which has nukes? Well so does France. A country also known to have thrown its weight around from time to time. What exactly is the point you are trying to make here?

I was definitely talking about the PRC. Canadians of Han Chinese origin don't have that much power, at least not disproportionately so.

And France's power doesn't really do much for French Canadians, who are further removed from the ''old country'' than any other group in Canada except indigenous people. (Assuming one could even identify an "old country" for indigenous people, which is an absurd idea in and of itself.)

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by someone123

We tend to see differences more but the permissible behaviours in Canada amount to a very narrow range in the overall spectrum of human social norms that currently exist around the world.

It's absolutely standard to downplay North American culture and history in general (e.g. McMansions and burgers and freeways are seen as "generic", not a part of shared culture here), partly because it's been exported then reimported so much, partly because a lot of it is American, and partly because some of it is low status.

Anglo-Canadian and American oikophobia is cringey, pathetic, and sometimes condescending.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ It is definitely becoming a thing with the Wexit crowd, who not surprisingly identify at least as much with Republican America as they do with Canada. It's kind of a new phenomenon... I wouldn't be surprised if many of the 40-something guys who embrace this were whole hog into the Molson Joe Canadian wrap yourself in the Maple Leaf, get a Canada flag tattoo next to your barbed wire tattoo thing that was in vogue on the prairies 20-odd years ago.

At the same token, it feels like sometimes there's nothing more to being a non-Wexit Anglo Canadian than to identify with Democrat America more than anything else. Their national pride derives from when Democrat Americans use Canada as a tool to bash their political opponents with (oh why can't we be more like Canada? I'm moving to Canada if X wins etc.).

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

There are a lot of New Brunswickers (and probably some Neo-Brunswickois) who would be very happy with such an arrangement in NB.

Of course such an arrangement could be quite messy. While la Peninsule would be clearly seulement francais and Charlotte County would be English only, Moncton would obviously be a dogs breakfast. Similarly in the Baie des Chaleur region, while the rural population is largely francophone, the larger cities and towns have significant anglophone populations. Obviously Fredericton (as the capital) would have to be bilingual.

Personally I would be happy if there was some territoriality to bilingualism in NB. I think it would actually help soothe bilingual tensions in the province. Moncton however would have to remain bilingual just because of it's character, but, by and large, the citizens of the Moncton region are now at peace with this.

They should devolve economic immigration to NB in the way they do to Quebec. And NB should be required to split their Anglo and French streams of migration equally or close to equally, in a way that increases the French-speaking population over time.

It's the least that could be done, a modest re-Frenchification after trying for many years to eliminate the French 'problem' altogether.

At the end of the day, formal equality can only go so far. French in Canada as an official language might end up just being an interesting trivia note, like Romansh or whatever in Switzerland.

I think this is something that NE-ON, Ottawa, and NB could all consider in terms of immigration. The focus for a while has been to fortify Quebec to ensure that it remains French in character. Re-Frenchifying the buffer zones could only help.

Maybe it can be part of reconciliation.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This is a COVID story but part of it fits here, as this is basically our ''language" thread these days.

File this under the discussion: "there is no practical disadvantage to living in Quebec while knowing no French, right?".

Calhoun said she doesn’t speak French, and her husband is not fluent, and wondered if the language barrier contributed to the ticket. She said the officer did not speak English.

https://globalnews.ca/news/7567308/west-...hey-shouldve-been-considered-exceptions/

Yup, just like living in Ontario folks... until this happens.

BTW this actually happened in the inner suburbs of Montreal, not in the Bas-St-Laurent.

Last time I visited Montreal a few years ago, I took an Uber from the airport to my friend's place. The francophone Uber driver knew zero English, but that was not an issue since that's also the norm in Toronto.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

They should devolve economic immigration to NB in the way they do to Quebec. And NB should be required to split their Anglo and French streams of migration equally or close to equally, in a way that increases the French-speaking population over time.

It's the least that could be done, a modest re-Frenchification after trying for many years to eliminate the French 'problem' altogether.

The only OB province has been trying to eliminate French? That's news.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by JHikka

The only OB province has been trying to eliminate French? That's news.

I meant more generally in Canada and historically, prior to things like official bilingualism and probably even further back than that. Although French has been receding even after formal equality. Which is why migration should be considered as a tool as well, so the francophone minority doesn't get demographically overwhelmed by English-speaking migrants.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by CityTech

Not really. The standard of living is much higher in Estonia and Latvia than it is in Russia; plus all the perks of the EU (which Russians in these countries still have despite not being Estonian/Latvian citizens). In Estonia, the Russian minority is gradually assimilating/integrating into Estonian life, with most now fluent in Estonian.





To be frank, I don't think there's much that can be done to stop the inevitable death of the Franco-Ontarian community. Already, most "Franco-Ontarians" essentially live their lives in English. The time to act was 50 years ago, back when French was the language of the streets in large chunks of Ottawa.

Northwestern Ontario, Northeastern Ontario need to become provinces -- or, for the time being, highly devolved 'Regions'. Northeastern Ontario should be legally bilingual and immigration should be devolved to it. That immigration program should require parity (or close to it) between the Anglo-Franco streams.

Same for NB (as far as immigration). Ottawa (Ontario-part only) the same, but as a federal territory.

This could help save the Franco-Ontarian community. Demographics is destiny.

[Migs]

"Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity"

...paid for by Sask and Alberta.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

I meant more generally in Canada and historically, prior to things like official bilingualism and probably even further back than that.

Right.

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

Although French has been receding even after formal equality. Which is why migration should be considered as a tool as well, so the francophone minority doesn't get demographically overwhelmed by English-speaking migrants.

Depending on your definition of choice the Francophone community is already overwhelmed by the Anglophone majority, anyway. What's the threshold for French as a first language to be at before it reaches that level? 30%? 25%? 15%? French as a first language is down to less than one-in-three in NB. [Source]

If French is receding in NB even after OB and all other policy changes perhaps that's just the way it's going to head regardless. There's good work done by StatCan showing that French as a primary language typically declines in bilingual ENG/FR areas in NB and particularly in mixed-language households. A lot of this historically came down to the lack of education amongst Francophone speakers and families, but more recently has come down to economic competitiveness and useability of English moving forward.

The decline of rural Francophone NB has been going on for decades and it's difficult to envision a scenario where it's immediately rectified. Difficult to fathom dropping Guinean immigrants in Shippagan and expecting the whole thing to turn around overnight, and just because you bring Francophone immigrants to Saint John or Woodstock doesn't mean that their children won't simply learn English as a primary language, anyway, as all other immigrants do. You'd have to create literal Francophone-only zones to protect the language, and at that point you've gone beyond the realm of the virtues of bilingualism.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by JHikka

If French is receding in NB even after OB and all other policy changes perhaps that's just the way it's going to head regardless. There's good work done by StatCan showing that French as a primary language typically declines in bilingual ENG/FR areas in NB and particularly in mixed-language households. A lot of this historically came down to the lack of education amongst Francophone speakers and families, but more recently has come down to economic competitiveness and useability of English moving forward.

The decline of rural Francophone NB has been going on for decades and it's difficult to envision a scenario where it's immediately rectified. Difficult to fathom dropping Guinean immigrants in Shippagan and expecting the whole thing to turn around overnight, and just because you bring Francophone immigrants to Saint John or Woodstock doesn't mean that their children won't simply learn English as a primary language, anyway, as all other immigrants do. You'd have to create literal Francophone-only zones to protect the language, and at that point you've gone beyond the realm of the virtues of bilingualism.

I don't think Canada has done nearly enough to already give up. Canada went from a country actively trying to eliminate French to one that has accorded the language legal status, but not much has been done to actually ensure that the language community thrives.

Frankly, our language situation in Anglo-Canada is a bit pathetic. Most Europeans and Asians learn multiple languages. Anglo-Canadians and Anglo-Americans are among the worst in this regard, although I would wager that Anglo-American interest in Spanish is probably much higher than Anglo-Canadian interest in learning another language. Our schools in Anglo Canada should be pumping out students who graduate with at least functional ability in French. Even the interest in French immersion I see in Ontario is mainly from East Asian and South Asian Canadians who want their kids to have that advantage.

Sorry for the digression.

The reason I picked the buffer zones is because there are places French-speaking immigrants can go to and succeed. In the case of NB, it would be Moncton. In the case of NE-ON, it would be Sudbury. In Ottawa, it would be Ottawa.

Just some ideas / suggestions. I think the French fact is an asset, not a problem. So lets preserve and promote it.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by JHikka

If French is receding in NB even after OB and all other policy changes perhaps that's just the way it's going to head regardless. There's good work done by StatCan showing that French as a primary language typically declines in bilingual ENG/FR areas in NB and particularly in mixed-language households. A lot of this historically came down to the lack of education amongst Francophone speakers and families, but more recently has come down to economic competitiveness and useability of English moving forward.

We could do some substitution here:

"If traditional indigenous languages are receding in Canada perhaps that's just the way it's going to head regardless. There's good work done by StatCan showing that indigenous languages typically decline in bilingual areas in Canada and particularly in mixed-language households. A lot of this historically came down to the lack of education amongst indigenous speakers and families, but more recently has come down to economic competitiveness and useability of English moving forward..."

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by someone123

We could do some substitution here:

"If traditional indigenous languages are receding in Canada perhaps that's just the way it's going to head regardless. There's good work done by StatCan showing that indigenous languages typically decline in bilingual areas in Canada and particularly in mixed-language households. A lot of this historically came down to the lack of education amongst indigenous speakers and families, but more recently has come down to economic competitiveness and useability of English moving forward..."

What would you recommend for the perserverance of Indigenous languages in Canada? Perhaps provinces with high indigenous populations can begin making Indigenous languages official and providing more services for them on a wider level, including instruction in schools and in wider curriculums. I wouldn't be against NB adding Mi'kmaq as a third official language and recognizing its usage more publicly.

[someone123]

I don't really know enough details about the state of indigenous languages to prescribe anything in particular. I do know more about Francophone issues. I am receptive to the idea of cultural and linguistic promotion for indigenous groups, supported by government funding. I don't think we should be fatalist about every smaller language being bound to die out.

I think one aspect that's misunderstood a lot is that people often just want their kids to learn the language they speak, or they want to transmit their culture, with language being a part of that. And some others lack skills in the more common languages around them and so need the services in their mother tongue to get by easily. Whether or not the kids then go on to use the language at the office or something like that is not necessarily a primary question. And a decline in demographics over the generations does not necessarily make the whole enterprise futile, anymore than the prospect of the eventual death of our sun makes our current existence on earth pointless.

Many mostly English speaking places have pretty vibrant Francophone subcultures even if they're not headed to majority French territory, and Moncton is well beyond that, so the immigration question probably is pretty relevant. The provinces already have more control over sponsorship. I don't know if NB tries to attract a certain number of Francophone immigrants.

[Acajack]

This discussion makes me think that Canada and Canadians as a whole are totally unprepared psychologically for the re-emergence and (self re)casting of francophones as a poor, downtrodden, historically mistreated minority.

I am already hearing quite a few rumblings about this. And not just from the ROC provinces. From Quebec too.

Watch out.

[mousquet]

Originally Posted by Migs

"Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity"

...paid for by Sask and Alberta.

Saskatchewan's economy:


https://www.saskatchewan.ca/business/investment-and-economic-development/economic-overview

That's why they pay taxes. Whether you like it or not, oil and gas extraction is a doomed 20th-century industry, with no future.
I don't even know whether mining is really necessary. In some cases, it appears pointless (not in all cases, though).
I bet Alberta's GDP is even worse in that respect.

You guys will end up like Saudi Arabia or Venezuela by counting so much on oil.

Quebecers don't do that. They try to be a creative people, and deserve (some, not too many) subsidies as such.

It makes me think of France that cut funding to fundamental research. Now here we are with no homemade vaccine of our own.
That's the price to pay when you don't put taxpayer money in smart investments.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by mousquet

Saskatchewan's economy:


https://www.saskatchewan.ca/business/investment-and-economic-development/economic-overview

That's why they pay taxes. Whether you like it or not, oil and gas extraction is a doomed 20th-century industry, with no future.
I don't even know whether mining is really necessary. In some cases, it appears pointless (not in all cases, though).
I bet Alberta's GDP is even worse in that respect.

You guys will end up like Saudi Arabia or Venezuela by counting so much on oil.

Quebecers don't do that. They try to be a creative people, and deserve (some, not too many) subsidies as such.

It makes me think of France that cut funding to fundamental research. Now here we are with no homemade vaccine of our own.
That's the price to pay when you don't put taxpayer money in smart investments.

On a l'habitude d'essuyer leur mépris.

[saffronleaf]

nvm

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This discussion makes me think that Canada and Canadians as a whole are totally unprepared psychologically for the re-emergence and (self re)casting of francophones as a poor, downtrodden, historically mistreated minority.

Yes, francophones are years behind on their PR.

I'm also not so convinced, at least in the eastern part of the country where Europeans moved in 400 years ago, that there is such a clear-cut boundary between francophone groups and indigenous groups. It is a bit more like say Mexico although the demographic balance is different.