Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[dleung]

Liojack: They may steal the election from our Trump, but they'll never take away our nationalism!!!!

I know.. it's been a tough few weeks for you two

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

and you know this for a fact?

'.

What you responded to was "they can, but they don't want to".

Numerous living identifiable people confirm by their very existence that there is a non-assimilationist path for anglophones to be accepted as Québécois.

So yes, "they can".

As for "wanting to", we have no idea what's in the mind of every individual, or what their motivations are. So we can't speculate on that.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

In Quebec French, "Canadian" can be used as a term of disparagement, no? Sort of like "Uncle Tom" in U.S. English.

Yes. Noticeably by deliberately saying the word "Canadian" in English when speaking in French.

As in: "Pierre est très CanadiAn."

That's extremely unlikely to be complimentary.

The French word "Canadien" is not really used that way, though.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by esquire

That type of stigma probably exists to some extent in all provinces except Ontario. Quebec is obviously the champion in that regard, but pretty well every other province has that going on to varying degrees (NL, NS, BC on the higher end of the scale, MB, NB on the lower end).

I mean, you see it all the time in this forum with the pro Newfoundland, or the pro Cascadia or the pro Alberta or the pro Maritimes posts. It's a weird love/hate dynamic where we all like to make it known that our province is a great nation in waiting held back from the world stage by the boring joyless nerds called Canada. It's practically a cliche at this point.

I maintain we should change the motto of this country from "A Mari usque ad Mare" to "We got fucked: Canada, A People's History".

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by dleung

Liojack: They may steal the election from our Trump, but they'll never take away our nationalism!!!!

I know.. it's been a tough few weeks for you two

"I don't like you so you must be in favour of X, Y and Z which are odious."

Quite possibly the lowest form of debate possible.

[dleung]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The French word "Canadien" is not really used that way, though.

Doesn't it have the same eye-roll factor as hyphenated last names?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

That type of stigma probably exists to some extent in all provinces except Ontario. Quebec is obviously the champion in that regard, but pretty well every other province has that going on to varying degrees (NL, NS, BC on the higher end of the scale, MB, NB on the lower end).

I mean, you see it all the time in this forum with the pro Newfoundland, or the pro Cascadia or the pro Alberta or the pro Maritimes posts. It's a weird love/hate dynamic where we all like to make it known that our province is a great nation in waiting held back from the world stage by the boring joyless nerds called Canada. It's practically a cliche at this point.

I have to say I have travelled all across the country for work and pleasure, lived in multiple provinces, and exchanged with Canadians of all stripes, and the only places I've heard people talk about "Canadian(s)" negatively and as if it was a moniker that didn't apply to them were Quebec and Newfoundland.

While there are frustrations with the federal government in many regions the lightning rod names are usually "the feds", "Ottawa" or the "Government of Canada".

"Canada" as an entity seems above all that.

It probably even sounds weird within the #wexit crowd to talk about "Canadians" as if was some other group that they aren't a part of.

[esquire]

^ It is definitely becoming a thing with the Wexit crowd, who not surprisingly identify at least as much with Republican America as they do with Canada. It's kind of a new phenomenon... I wouldn't be surprised if many of the 40-something guys who embrace this were whole hog into the Molson Joe Canadian wrap yourself in the Maple Leaf, get a Canada flag tattoo next to your barbed wire tattoo thing that was in vogue on the prairies 20-odd years ago.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

Disagree. To illustrate my point, imagine your typical ponderous NY Times think piece. This time it's about Puerto Rico. They talk to a man who has lived in San Juan for over 40 years after growing up in Kansas. Are they going to present him as an ex-pat from Kansas? Probably not... it would not make sense to do that if he hasn't been in Kansas since Jimmy Carter was the US president. I think at that point it would be fair to describe him as Puerto Rican... i.e. someone domiciled in Puerto Rico, who is invested there, probably has close family and social ties there. I mean, I'm sure some guys hanging out on the steps of a café might disagree and insist that he isn't a "real Puerto Rican" like them, but who cares... you will always find someone playing that game somewhere.

Now that said, I don't consider this rule absolute. It would be much harder to apply it to a country where nationality and ethnicity are joined at the hip like your favourite example, Poland, or Japan or what have you. Eddie from Kansas still wouldn't be considered Japanese even after living 60 years in Kobe and raising a family there. But places like Puerto Rico and Quebec are not at the same level in that regard... at least from what I can see.

This is an interesting question.

Would the New York Times honestly pick a guy like that as a representative of the "typical Puerto Rican"? Perhaps if he had gone fully native, learned Spanish, and perhaps had an academic, media or political career involving Puerto Rican society.

When media do these reports, there are often two types of people interviewed: 1) so-called experts who may be "from away" (showing my Maritimer roots ) but ensconced in the society, and 2) the average person.

My guess is that your dude from Kansas, if he fit the bill for 1), could be called upon to provide the view from Puerto Rico.

It's much less likely that he'd be the go-to person for 2).

I think that's pretty obvious, no?

Unless of course the goal of the article was something like life in Puerto Rico from the perspective of people originally from the lower 48.

[Acajack]

This just showed up on Twitter a few minutes ago, in reaction to an article in French (France) magazine Marianne where Quebec Minister Simon Jolin-Barrette (Mr. Bill 21, Mr. Bill 101) is interviewed:
https://www.marianne.net/monde/ameriques...ce=Twitter&Echobox=1606833288#xtor=CS2-5
Le message passé avec les pancartes en anglais c'est fuddle duddle le francais. La loi 101 c'est un échec. En plus de franciser les nouveaux arrivants, ça devait faire en sorte qu'ils développent un attachement et s'identifier comme Québécois. Ben ils sont Canadians


Exact spelling. Emphasis added mine.

[Acajack]

On the burgeoning language debate, from the Twitter account of Mitch Garber, former CEO of Caesars Entertainment Group, "Dragon" on the Quebec version of the show, Montrealer and... Québécois.

I will fight for anglophones to be able to be served in english in youth protection and other life, death, healthcare situations. Agreed. At the same time Bill 101 was passed 43 years ago. If you are born in Quebec from 1977, and don't speak french, it's mystifying to me.

[jamincan]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Are you seriously suggesting that all francophones in Quebec don't complain about the Canadian status quo or about their 'ownership' (whatever that means) of the term?
(but apparently Anglos do?) How noble of them. I wish I could be as secure in my identity as Acajack, who speaks for 'the people' of Quebec. I cannot, because I am anglo and I am thus biologically incapable of being Quebecois (because I am (a) not Francophone (even if I may speak the language), and/or (b) apparently I don't want to be, as told to me by someone who thinks they speak for their province more than I ever could).

Blood and soil nationalism, in other words

I believe I have it on good authority that Acajack doesn't speak for the people of Quebec; he just describes it the way it really is.

[MonctonRad]

In Swiss federalism, the French cantons are French, the German cantons are German and the Italian cantons are Italian. The distinctions are very strict, much more so than what we have in Canada.

I have been to Switzerland, but have not spent much time there. In the major cities like Zurich or Geneva, are there any German minorities (in Geneva) or French minorities in Zurich, and if so, are there any provisions in the Swiss constitution that they receive services in their minority language?

My gut feeling is "no", but does anyone know the answer?

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This just showed up on Twitter a few minutes ago, in reaction to an article in French (France) magazine Marianne where Quebec Minister Simon Jolin-Barrette (Mr. Bill 21, Mr. Bill 101) is interviewed:
https://www.marianne.net/monde/ameriques...ce=Twitter&Echobox=1606833288#xtor=CS2-5
Le message passé avec les pancartes en anglais c'est fuddle duddle le francais. La loi 101 c'est un échec. En plus de franciser les nouveaux arrivants, ça devait faire en sorte qu'ils développent un attachement et s'identifier comme Québécois. Ben ils sont Canadians


Exact spelling. Emphasis added mine.

New immigrants tend to want to immigrate to a country, not a particular state/province, no? Immigrants who settle in Texas identify as 'American', not Texan, I'd imagine. I'm not surprised immigrants identify more as Canadian. I am curious as to how their children will identify.

Anyway, a good old fashioned fight with Ottawa (very restrained by 1990s standards) does do wonders for an provincial government's popularity. Especially when the CAQ gets to take a pot shot at the Couillard Liberals along with Ottawa.

I get the distinct sense of big city versus the rest of the province vibe.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by wave46

New immigrants tend to want to immigrate to a country, not a particular state/province, no? Immigrants who settle in Texas identify as 'American', not Texan, I'd imagine. I'm not surprised immigrants identify more as Canadian. I am curious as to how their children will identify.

Anyway, a good old fashioned fight with Ottawa (very restrained by 1990s standards) does do wonders for an provincial government's popularity. Especially when the CAQ gets to take a pot shot at the Couillard Liberals along with Ottawa.

I get the distinct sense of big city versus the rest of the province vibe.

It's actually taking some overly nationalistic liberties to say that all or even most immigrants to Quebec don't identify with Quebec and feel solely CanadiAn.

I'd even argue that the share of immigrants who have a primary Quebec identity and a looser Canadian one (somewhat analogous to many Quebecers, actually) is increasing rapidly. They might even represent a majority of immigrants at this point - even in Montreal.

But it wasn't lost on people that most of the anti-Bill 21 signs and speeches at protests were in English. (The parties opposed to Bill 21 are also pleading in English in a Montreal court, including the Government of Canada.) The BLM protests in Montreal this summer were also predominantly in English.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It's actually taking some overly nationalistic liberties to say that all or even most immigrants to Quebec don't identify with Quebec and feel solely CanadiAn.

I'd even argue that the share of immigrants who have a primary Quebec identity and a looser Canadian one (somewhat analogous to many Quebecers, actually) is increasing rapidly. They might even represent a majority of immigrants at this point - even in Montreal.

But it wasn't lost on people that most of the anti-Bill 21 signs and speeches at protests were in English. (The parties opposed to Bill 21 are also pleading in English in a Montreal court, including the Government of Canada.) The BLM protests in Montreal this summer were also predominantly in English.

Sure. I'd imagine that many immigrants identify somewhat with Quebec. However, given that some of the most immigrant-heavy areas of the province endorsed the Liberals both federally and provincially in 2019 and 2018 respectively, I have my suspicions about where the degree of that particular allegiance is.

There's also the nationalist argument of requiring an 'other' as an interloper, an outsider. Without that, one's political cause weakens.

To say that one side plays this game and the other doesn't is foolish.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by wave46

Sure. I'd imagine that many immigrants identify somewhat with Quebec. However, given that some of the most immigrant-heavy areas of the province endorsed the Liberals both federally and provincially in 2019 and 2018 respectively, I have my suspicions about where the degree of that particular allegiance is.

There's also the nationalist argument of requiring an 'other' as an interloper, an outsider. Without that, one's political cause weakens.

To say that one side plays this game and the other doesn't is foolish.

Voting for the Liberals is not seen as a rejection of francophone Quebec. At least not by anyone except those in the most partisan nationalist circles. Though sure, all parties would like to see more allophones come onto their side.

Also preferring that Quebec remain in Canada is not mutually exclusive with being fully integrated into Quebec francophone society.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Voting for the Liberals is not seen as a rejection of francophone Quebec. At least not by anyone except those in the most partisan nationalist circles. Though sure, all parties would like to see more allophones come onto their side.

Also preferring that Quebec remain in Canada is not mutually exclusive with being fully integrated into Quebec francophone society.

It's almost like there's degrees of viewpoints on Quebec and Canada and that no one group has an exclusive mandate to speak for the whole.

Unless one disagrees of course.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by wave46

It's almost like there's degrees of viewpoints on Quebec and Canada and that no one group has an exclusive mandate to speak for the whole.

Unless one disagrees of course.

Diverse societies comprised of millions of people tend to be like that!

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by wave46

Sure. I'd imagine that many immigrants identify somewhat with Quebec. However, given that some of the most immigrant-heavy areas of the province endorsed the Liberals both federally and provincially in 2019 and 2018 respectively, I have my suspicions about where the degree of that particular allegiance is.

For reference:



"The market research firm found that outside of Quebec, immigrant votes more or less mirror the votes of other Canadians. However, in Quebec, an interesting pattern emerges. Immigrant voters express significantly less support for the Bloc Québécois. Instead, these votes tend to go to the Liberals. "

https://www.macleans.ca/politics/ottawa/...nt-vote-differs-from-the-rest-of-canada/