Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Quebec doesn't really fund francophone educational institutions outside Quebec at all.

Not at present, no. There is a Quebec Office here in Moncton though, which provides some funding to Acadian institutions and support for French language cultural events.

Just what is LeGault threatening to do anyway? I haven't been paying attention to this issue. Is he planning on further tightening up who can get an English language education in Quebec? Is he planning on restricting funding to English language hospitals? What will the future status of English language universities be? Will even small anglophone businesses (mom and pop stores) in majority English speaking communities be forced to conduct their daily operations in French?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Not at present, no. There is a Quebec Office here in Moncton though, which provides some funding to Acadian institutions and support for French language cultural events.

Just what is LeGault threatening to do anyway? I haven't been paying attention to this issue. Is he planning on further tightening up who can get an English language education in Quebec? Is he planning on restricting funding to English language hospitals? What will the future status of English language universities be? Will even small anglophone businesses (mom and pop stores) in majority English speaking communities be forced to conduct their daily operations in French?

I don't think they've fully mapped it out yet.

Likely options include cracking down on retail businesses that (still) don't provide services to customers in French.

Perhaps language of work as well. Drilling down to smaller workplaces that are currently exempted.

Hospitals won't likely be touched.

They are getting a lot of pressure to extend Bill 101 provisions to CEGEPs which are the junior colleges between high school and university. Currently anyone can attend any language but some would like the same rules to apply there as those in public schools. So far they have resisted but a final decision on whether to go there has not been made yet.

[wave46]

Speculation post incoming.

Russia has a demographics problem: It is in decline. How to fix this? Well, it does have a bunch of countries nearby with sizable Russian-speaking minorities. A solution presents itself: Present an expedited immigration option for their Russian speaking populations. Russia gets some more working bodies, Belarus becomes more for the Belarusians.

Quebec doesn't necessarily have the same pressure, but I could see the appeal. Long-term, the anglicization of the Quebec border regions of Ontario and New Brunswick is more than a likely outcome. So, make an appeal to the Francophone residents of those provinces: Welcome to Quebec, where your language is safe. Sure, the newcomers may initially have differing views, but 'going native' has a long and well-documented history. Bonus: don't have to deal with immigration hassles. We're all the same country. Even better: The Anglos can go the other way. Everybody's happier and the language debate fades even further.

Again, just speculation.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

LeGault wants a Canada that resembles Switzerland, although his concern for French minority communities outside Quebec is somewhat incongruous.
:

All Quebec Premiers including Liberals probably wouldn't mind a Canada that resembles Switzerland if we're being honest.

(At least partial) language territoriality is the linguistic policy approach that has the most traction among Quebecers, even moreso among those who study such things.

So the idea that English deserves as much support in Quebec as French does outside it has never really been "bought" in Quebec.

I think a lot of people also don't know that one of the main goals of the federal Official Languages Act of 1969 was to buttress the anglo community of Quebec against the attacks that were expected if the PQ ever got elected. It wasn't initially intended to help francophones outside Quebec much at all and in fact for the first 10-15 years of the Act most of the money and push went to supporting English in Quebec. Then in the 1980s francophones outside Quebec started bitching about it and that's when things started to turn around.

The Commission nationale des parents francophones in the 80s published a report called Où sont passés les milliards which showed that something like 70-80% of the money from the feds for official language minorities went to the anglo community of Quebec.

Things have switched around almost completely since then, though, and today the Act and the people who apply are mostly concerned with French outside Quebec, I'd admit.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by wave46

Russia has a demographics problem: It is in decline. How to fix this? Well, it does have a bunch of countries nearby with sizable Russian-speaking minorities. A solution presents itself: Present an expedited immigration option for their Russian speaking populations. Russia gets some more working bodies, Belarus becomes more for the Belarusians.

Russia fixed part of this problem by annexing Crimea, for starters.

I don't want to nitpick but I think better countries to use instead of Belarus would be Latvia and Estonia. Belarus, with Lukashenko in power, is more or less just an extension of Moscow. LAT/EST are countries with Russian minorities and influence that have moved to separate themselves from that sphere of influence in the past thirty years. Surely there'd be some appeal for Russians in those countries to relocate somewhere slightly more friendly, although tensions aren't nearly as high today as they've been in the past.

Originally Posted by wave46

Quebec doesn't necessarily have the same pressure, but I could see the appeal. Long-term, the anglicization of the Quebec border regions of Ontario and New Brunswick is more than a likely outcome. So, make an appeal to the Francophone residents of those provinces: Welcome to Quebec, where your language is safe. Sure, the newcomers may initially have differing views, but 'going native' has a long and well-documented history. Bonus: don't have to deal with immigration hassles. We're all the same country. Even better: The Anglos can go the other way. Everybody's happier and the language debate fades even further.

Interesting speculation. This sort of move would publicly signify a major retreat of the french language in Canada which would be pretty incredible.

Originally Posted by wave46

Long-term, the anglicization of the Quebec border regions of Ontario and New Brunswick is more than a likely outcome.

I think we'll be seeing this play out regardless. Gatineau & Hull have been discussed pretty frequently here, but an area like Vaudreuil-Soulanges continues to anglicize as it grows and pushes further west towards the ON border. In Prescott-Russell the home language inches further and further towards parity in an area which was at one time 65%+ French at home. In Gaspesie, bilingual rates are creeping up as Francophones learn English. In Northern Ontario the opposite is happening, with bilingual rates decreasing in areas like Thunder Bay and Sudbury. The same can be said in Cumberland in Nova Scotia. These sorts of shifts are only a few percentage points in each area, which on the ground likely doesn't change a whole lot over a 10-15 year period, but add them all up and it paints a picture of the equivalent of a death by a thousand cuts.

I'm intrigued to see the Liberals' white paper on the Official Languages Act moving forward and see how they plan to tackle the demographic and trend issues the French language in Canada faces in the coming decades.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Interesting speculation. This sort of move would publicly signify a major retreat of the french language in Canada which would be pretty incredible.


I think we'll be seeing this play out regardless. Gatineau & Hull have been discussed pretty frequently here, but an area like Vaudreuil-Soulanges continues to anglicize as it grows and pushes further west towards the ON border. In Prescott-Russell the home language inches further and further towards parity in an area which was at one time 65%+ French at home. In Gaspesie, bilingual rates are creeping up as Francophones learn English. In Northern Ontario the opposite is happening, with bilingual rates decreasing in areas like Thunder Bay and Sudbury. The same can be said in Cumberland in Nova Scotia. These sorts of shifts are only a few percentage points in each area, which on the ground likely doesn't change a whole lot over a 10-15 year period, but add them all up and it paints a picture of the equivalent of a death by a thousand cuts.

I'm intrigued to see the Liberals' white paper on the Official Languages Act moving forward and see how they plan to tackle the demographic and trend issues the French language in Canada faces in the coming decades.

Part of the reason I expect the decline is that the strongest Francophone roots in Ontario and New Brunswick are in some of the weakest economic areas. Ottawa is the exception, but effectively functions as an English-speaking city. If you are more comfortable in French on a day-to-day basis, there's a strong incentive to move across the bridge to Gatineau.

The second reason is that Canada's population growth is concentrated in people whose first language is neither English or French. If they're picking up a second language to communicate with the locals, it'll probably be the one that they can communicate with 100% of the population in. Trilingualism is the exception. I expect those Francophone majority areas of the province to have this phenomenon occur too. It'll be slower due to the weaker economy, but it's going to happen. I see it happening in places like Sudbury already.

Montreal might be the last island (see what I did there?) of minority language retention. That's more due to the Americans' influence than anything else. I'd be hard-pressed to see exclusive Anglo-Canadians really thriving long-term there. It might be something like English in Stockholm or Copenhagen.

[CityTech]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Surely there'd be some appeal for Russians in those countries to relocate somewhere slightly more friendly, although tensions aren't nearly as high today as they've been in the past.

Not really. The standard of living is much higher in Estonia and Latvia than it is in Russia; plus all the perks of the EU (which Russians in these countries still have despite not being Estonian/Latvian citizens). In Estonia, the Russian minority is gradually assimilating/integrating into Estonian life, with most now fluent in Estonian.

Originally Posted by JHikka

Interesting speculation. This sort of move would publicly signify a major retreat of the french language in Canada which would be pretty incredible.

I think we'll be seeing this play out regardless. Gatineau & Hull have been discussed pretty frequently here, but an area like Vaudreuil-Soulanges continues to anglicize as it grows and pushes further west towards the ON border. In Prescott-Russell the home language inches further and further towards parity in an area which was at one time 65%+ French at home. In Gaspesie, bilingual rates are creeping up as Francophones learn English. In Northern Ontario the opposite is happening, with bilingual rates decreasing in areas like Thunder Bay and Sudbury. The same can be said in Cumberland in Nova Scotia. These sorts of shifts are only a few percentage points in each area, which on the ground likely doesn't change a whole lot over a 10-15 year period, but add them all up and it paints a picture of the equivalent of a death by a thousand cuts.

I'm intrigued to see the Liberals' white paper on the Official Languages Act moving forward and see how they plan to tackle the demographic and trend issues the French language in Canada faces in the coming decades.

To be frank, I don't think there's much that can be done to stop the inevitable death of the Franco-Ontarian community. Already, most "Franco-Ontarians" essentially live their lives in English. The time to act was 50 years ago, back when French was the language of the streets in large chunks of Ottawa.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Interesting speculation. This sort of move would publicly signify a major retreat of the french language in Canada which would be pretty incredible.

Isn't it just an acknowledgment of reality? French outside of Quebec (apart from certain parts of Ontario and New Brunswick) and English in Quebec (apart from Montreal) are marginal at best despite the money that gets dumped into them.

There have been French immersion school programs across Canada for the last 40+ years, and what has it given us? Not so much a bilingual society as just a de facto publicly funded separate school system.

I can see the appeal of taking this approach.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by lio45

Doesn't Ontario already fund court challenges against things that the democratically elected Quebec government is doing within Quebec with the blessing of most of the population of Quebec? (And no, we don't like it )

Probably the previous government. I would be very surprised if the Doug Ford PC government is doing it. Ford doesn't focus on or know much outside of Toronto.

[Proof Sheet]

Originally Posted by wave46

Or Ontarians/Canadians with Toronto.

Or those outside the M25 versus those within the M25. Those within the Peripherique versus those outside. Repeat through the world.

Those in 416, those in 905 etc.

There is a subset of Ontarians in southern Ontario who only go to Toronto for a live sports event or the occasional concert and then complain about the traffic as they drive into Toronto in a car for with usually 2 people. They hate everything about Toronto.

[Proof Sheet]

Originally Posted by CityTech

Not really. The standard of living is much higher in Estonia and Latvia than it is in Russia; plus all the perks of the EU (which Russians in these countries still have despite not being Estonian/Latvian citizens). In Estonia, the Russian minority is gradually assimilating/integrating into Estonian life, with most now fluent in Estonian.





To be frank, I don't think there's much that can be done to stop the inevitable death of the Franco-Ontarian community. Already, most "Franco-Ontarians" essentially live their lives in English. The time to act was 50 years ago, back when French was the language of the streets in large chunks of Ottawa.

The Bald and Bankrupt guy on YouTube has recently been uploading episodes from Estonia. Interesting place with some 'Soviet' vestiges.

[begratto]

Originally Posted by Proof Sheet

Or those outside the M25 versus those within the M25. Those within the Peripherique versus those outside. Repeat through the world.

Those in 416, those in 905 etc.

There is a subset of Ontarians in southern Ontario who only go to Toronto for a live sports event or the occasional concert and then complain about the traffic as they drive into Toronto in a car for with usually 2 people. They hate everything about Toronto.

This also exists in Quebec but the hate is directed towards Montreal. It starts about 10 km away from the city centre I'd say.

Originally Posted by Proof Sheet

The Bald and Bankrupt guy on YouTube has recently been uploading episodes from Estonia. Interesting place with some 'Soviet' vestiges.

This guy is fascinating. I have watched all of his videos in the last 3 months. His Estonia video is quite interesting, like all the other ones he did in ex-Soviet republics and in India. The guy speaks Russian fluently and seems to be quite good in Hindi too. Impressive.

For thos who don't know him : bald and bankrupt on Youtube.

[Proof Sheet]

Originally Posted by begratto

This also exists in Quebec but the hate is directed towards Montreal. It starts about 10 km away from the city centre I'd say.



This guy is fascinating. I have watched all of his videos in the last 3 months. His Estonia video is quite interesting, like all the other ones he did in ex-Soviet republics and in India. The guy speaks Russian fluently and seems to be quite good in Hindi too. Impressive.

For thos who don't know him : bald and bankrupt on Youtube.

The way he talks and his interaction with natives reminds me so much of a cousin of mine. Accent is similar..it's uncanny watching/listening to him.

I can't imagine Mr. Bald in Disney World or Branson or a shopping mall in middle America.

I read his book recently about his travels in eastern Belearus.

I think an ex-wife/girlfriend is from Belarus or Russia and he learnt Russian that way. Living in India for a few years is how he learnt Hindi.

His trip to Mexico wasn't that great due to Simon Wilson and Harold Baldr.

[JHikka]

https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/l...equality-of-english-and-french-in-canada

Liberals' proposed language reforms seek 'equality' of English and French in Canada

Christopher Nardi
Publishing date:Feb 19, 2021

"OTTAWA – The Trudeau government is proposing a series of sweeping language reforms that will “intervene vigorously to counter and remedy” the decline of French in Canada.

In a roughly 30-page document titled “English and French: Towards the substantive equality of official languages in Canada” published Friday, the government makes over 50 proposals that aim to counter the decline of French across the country and “reinforce a sense of linguistic security.”

For example, making employers of federally regulated industries (such as telecommunications or airlines) communicate with employees in French in Quebec and other strongly francophone areas; making bilingualism mandatory for future Supreme Court judges, and increasing the number of French immersion teachers (and thus, classes) outside of Quebec.

...

The Liberal government has published its sweeping language reforms and will form a committee that will have 60 days to study their implementation. The Liberals then promise to bring forward the necessary legislative amendments.

In order to save you from having to go through the hyper-bureaucratic document yourself, the National Post’s Christopher Nardi has broken it down into five main proposals.

• More French immersion teachers
  One of the key ways to do that, Joly says, is to address the deep and consistent shortage of francophone immersion teachers across the country, which in turns limits the availability of French education. The document proposes two main solutions: increasing the number of training programs for future French teachers, as well as creating a fast-track immigration program focused on recruiting francophone teachers.
• Bilingual Supreme Court judges
  After years of fervent debate on the topic, Supreme Court judges should be functionally bilingual, the Trudeau government has decided. Joly says she wants to remove the section of the Official Languages Act that exempts judges from the country’s highest court from having to understand both languages without an interpreter.
• Increasing bilingualism within the public service
  Though many management positions in the federal public service require candidates to be completely bilingual, the reality is that that isn’t always the case in practice. So, Joly wants to review the standards under which bureaucrats are tested for bilingualism to ensure that theory meets reality going forward in French or bilingual regions, all the while improving second language training.
• Mandatory French services for employees of federally regulated companies
  Thus, Joly proposes that the government oblige employers in Quebec and “other regions with a strong francophone presence” (which are not defined) to: communicate with workers in both official languages; ensure their workers have the right to work in French; and prohibit “discrimination” against an employee simply because they only speak French.
• “Protecting” CBC/Radio-Canada’s services in underserved areas"
  The government wants to “strengthen” CBC/Radio-Canada as a “cultural institution”, “recognize and protect” the public broadcaster’s role in the promotion of both official languages and ensure that CBC/Radio-Canada implements measures “that enhance the vitality of official language minority communities”.

[GreaterMontréal]

They don't hate Montréal, they just don't see themselves living there, so they ''hate'' it.

[hipster duck]

After years of fervent debate on the topic, Supreme Court judges should be functionally bilingual, the Trudeau government has decided.

Well, there goes any chance of having a First Nations supreme court judge anytime soon.

If I were O'Toole, I'd counter the Trudeau government with this. It probably doesn't pick up any votes for the CPC, but it might bleed some ROC votes from the Liberals to the NDP.

[Kilgore Trout]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Well, there goes any chance of having a First Nations supreme court judge anytime soon.

If I were O'Toole, I'd counter the Trudeau government with this. It probably doesn't pick up any votes for the CPC, but it might bleed some ROC votes from the Liberals to the NDP.

You think? It narrows the field but there are more than 100,000 First Nations and Inuit people in Quebec, and anyone who has studied law in this province speaks French. That also goes for anyone from out of province who has studied law at McGill, since bilingualism is a requirement to graduate. I have no idea how many First Nations lawyers or judges there are in Canada, but I assume a fairly sizeable proportion is able to speak French, given the limited number of law schools in the country. For instance, four of the nine current Supreme Court justices did their law degrees at McGill, Laval and uOttawa, which makes them functionally bilingual.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Well, there goes any chance of having a First Nations supreme court judge anytime soon.

If I were O'Toole, I'd counter the Trudeau government with this. It probably doesn't pick up any votes for the CPC, but it might bleed some ROC votes from the Liberals to the NDP.

Stay tuned - that depends on what is meant by "functionally bilingual", whether there will be provisions for training, and, of course, whether they take it seriously or not (see, for example, the number of GofC Deputy Ministers who are not really bilingual).

Although I confess that I think requiring SCC justices to be bilingual is a bad idea.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

You think? It narrows the field but there are more than 100,000 First Nations and Inuit people in Quebec, and anyone who has studied law in this province speaks French. That also goes for anyone from out of province who has studied law at McGill, since bilingualism is a requirement to graduate. I have no idea how many First Nations lawyers or judges there are in Canada, but I assume a fairly sizeable proportion is able to speak French, given the limited number of law schools in the country. For instance, four of the nine current Supreme Court justices did their law degrees at McGill, Laval and uOttawa, which makes them functionally bilingual.

Another thing is that while it's not at all representative of the population as a whole (or even all of the group that follows), the governing or élite classes in Canada (even outside the bilingual belt) do tend to have more bilinguals among them than one would expect.

This class of people is mostly made up of politicians of course, but top-level legal professionals also and even, surprisingly enough, Olympic athletes.

This is also true of some Indigenous people in my experience.

Again, it wouldn't be anywhere near ''most" Indigenous judges or lawyers on say the Prairies, but there might be a few more of them than people would assume.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Stay tuned - that depends on what is meant by "functionally bilingual", whether there will be provisions for training, and, of course, whether they take it seriously or not (see, for example, the number of GofC Deputy Ministers who are not really bilingual).

Although I confess that I think requiring SCC justices to be bilingual is a bad idea.

I agree. What we need is a Canadian high court that deals with common law and a Canadian high court that deals with civil law. Anyone qualified for the latter would automatically speak French. Problem solved.