The not so Great Racism in Canada Thread

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Are the Black and LGBT communities really comparable to the racist "community"?

That is not really the point I am making.

[dleung]

To be racist is to believe that one's race is superior. Most here don't actually think that. They just need to hold onto any advantage provided to them through biases in the system, so they filibuster any discussion that threatens to level the playing field, as evident in this thread.

Originally Posted by Acajack

Some people figure this out sooner than others but as the normal person matures they ideally come to realize that the world and life are mostly grey as opposed to a binary relationship where all the good guys wear white hats and all the bad guys wear black ones.

In this particular instance, it's totally possible to find this couple stupid and dangerously (criminally, by Canadian standards) irresponsible in their behaviour, but at the same time understand that they might be concerned for their personal safety and their property at the sight of a large crowd of protestors marching by. Especially in light of the outcomes of certain protests in the past month.

As with your other 500 posts on this one thread, it's your choice of focus that is telling. What's the point of pointing out George Floyd's crime if we agree that curbside execution wasn't the answer? What's the point of pointing out some perceived fear of protesters on the street if we agree that drawing guns at them wasn't the answer? What's the point of trying to discredit a movement that has no organizational hierarchy just because of the fringe ideas of some members, if we know that no one will take that part seriously? I mean how important is it to have pancake syrup with colonial undertones, compared to ending systemic racism?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

Everyone’s experience should be listened to but I reiterate that your voice does not cancel out the millions of people who disagree with you.

This is true of you as well, though.

I am not sure of the exact breakdowns but my guess is that there isn't as big a majority on your side as you think there is. Or at least, a lot of that support is "in principle", soft or conditional. (It's easy to fall into the trap of thinking that those that scream the loudest represent "most everyone".)

That said, I'd agree that that a decent degree of support (even if conditional) is there right now, and it would be foolish to squander this moment in time.

We'll know within a few months if this opportunity has been blown.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by dleung

To be racist is to believe that one's race is superior. Most here don't actually think that. They just need to hold onto any advantage provided to them through biases in the system, so they filibuster any discussion that threatens to level the playing field, as evident in this thread.
As with your other 500 posts on this one thread, it's your choice of focus that is telling. What's the point of pointing out George Floyd's crime if we agree that curbside execution wasn't the answer? What's the point of pointing out some perceived fear of protesters on the street if we agree that drawing guns at them wasn't the answer? What's the point of trying to discredit a movement that has no organizational hierarchy just because of the fringe ideas of some members, if we know that no one will take that part seriously? I mean how important is it to have pancake syrup with colonial undertones, compared to ending systemic racism?

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Pavlov

Has anyone in this thread called you a racist? (genuinely curious)

Ya that whole post feels like a strawman.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

Meanwhile in the real world I see many interracial couples: on the beach, hiking the Bruce Trail, hanging out in downtown Hamilton, everywhere in my Toronto neighbourhood.

You want a sticker?

[wave46]

Originally Posted by dleung

Most here don't actually think that. They just need to hold onto any advantage provided to them through biases in the system, so they filibuster any discussion that threatens to level the playing field, as evident in this thread.

I'd agree to an extent.

I think the point of disagreement (from me, at least) is that the biases are less based on race and more based on wealth. Race is a convenient flashpoint on which to split the less wealthy and probably is being used in such a fashion. I'd say racism is promoted by a power structure that is more intent on keeping people poor than it is on any concept of 'racial superiority'.

To use an example to the south of us, the voting intentions of various poor segments of society is quite polarized, despite a common goal of aspiring to not be poor. Then Donald Trump takes power and provides a huge tax cut for corporations and upper-class Americans, whilst attacking Obamacare.

By finding a common goal, using strength in numbers and having a united front, we can change the world. It's no secret why the UAW and Martin Luther King Jr. were allies - they understood their common denominator.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by dleung

To be racist is to believe that one's race is superior. Most here don't actually think that.

Or that people are inherently inferior or flawed due simply to which group of they are a part of. Kinda like how you sound when talking about French Canadians.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by dleung

They just need to hold onto any advantage provided to them through biases in the system, so they filibuster any discussion that threatens to level the playing field, as evident in this thread.

I don't see and have never seen how "levelling the playing field" could be a threat to me or my family personally.

My view has always been that there is more than enough wealth in Canada to guarantee prosperity to everyone across the board.

Having those minorities who are less well-off (materially and in other ways) than the average right now achieve the same level as most everyone else doesn't take anything away from me - it actually has the potential to make my life and everyone else's better.

This is isn't a scorched piece of land where everyone is killing themselves over a scant few drops of water.

I also posted these sentiments in the U.S. forums a few weeks ago, and I think the only one who responded was Jd, who is one of the more thoughtful posters on there.

[shreddog]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Just trying to wrap my head around the idea that just hearing certain words or seeing certain symbols is intolerably hurtful to some on the one hand, but that there is also some slack on the other. And how it's sometimes difficult to keep track of the interplay between the two...

For those not following Vancouver news ....

SFU faces renewed backlash for “Clan” athletics team name

Same sounding word, different spelling, completely different contexts, but ...

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Ya that whole post feels like a strawman.

"Strawman" is actually going the same way as "racist", and becoming meaningless.

Basically, "strawman" (which I almost never use BTW) now equals "I don't agree with this and it bugs me, but I won't take the trouble of countering it, so strawman it is!"

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by cabotp

It does make one wonder how many of these triggered SJWs are actually just white people having a tantrum.

It's amazing how quickly being white is now used by critics as an excuse to discount somebody's viewpoint.

I wonder if this happened during the Civil Rights era. "What do you know about lynching? You're white!"

[someone123]

Originally Posted by dleung

They just need to hold onto any advantage provided to them through biases in the system, so they filibuster any discussion that threatens to level the playing field, as evident in this thread.

But if you look at a bunch of posts on here, like on the last page, you'll see that often hours go by between replies. And everybody is free to reply at any time. You can also put people on ignore if you want, then you won't even see the content of their posts.

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by shreddog

For those not following Vancouver news ....

Same sounding word, different spelling, completely different contexts, but ...

Quote "In 2017, a petition by SFU professor Holly Andersen was launched to retire the name due to its negative connotations and the risk it could potentially pose to SFU student athletes."


Don't activist always say "Educate Yourself!" Isn't this a perfect time to tell people about the history of Scottish Clans? Or are people today to bloody lazy to look things up?

Doesn't go both ways I guess.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

And of course, on the non-racial side, the gay community have appropriated certain insulting terms for their people.

Just like "The N-Word" there is the (other) "F-word".

We don't always control what others say but we can control our own emotional response, and whether we find an insult infuriating or not. An insult can cause soul-searching and hurt feelings in the target or the target can simply brush it off, think it's stupid, and perhaps that it reflects badly on the source.

This is one of the things I think about with the Wendy Mesley affair. Not so much that she should be "allowed" to say it, but that a world without these magic words that we choose to imbue with totemic power (à la Ta-Nehisi Coates) is probably better.

I know people who think "fag" is an ultra-offensive term they never want to hear and who are worked into a frenzy whenever they hear it, so the word has de facto power over them. I know others who don't care and realize that if a crackhead on the street calls them a fag it doesn't really matter. I think the second approach is healthier, and that the justifications (well you see I was called this in high school so it really triggers me now) are generally not relevant. I realize some people can't help but get upset. I don't think those people are helped by making a federal case out of the incidents.

I think the white messiah factor plays into this. If you are a white messiah who isn't the target of forceful racial insults then there's little cost to you to make a huge deal out of them when you feel like it. But if you are the target it's different. Maybe it is better to put them in perspective (why do you care what the crackhead or the kid on some video game chat says?) rather than turn your own life into a crusade when you have better things to do. Society is, in any case, clearly moving away from the direction of commonplace racism, homophobia, etc., even if it is not perfect.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

Just like "The N-Word" there is the (other) "F-word".

We don't always control what others say but we can control our own emotional response, and whether we find an insult infuriating or not. An insult can cause soul-searching and hurt feelings in the target or the target can simply brush it off, think it's stupid, and perhaps that it reflects badly on the source.

This is one of the things I think about with the Wendy Mesley affair. Not so much that she should be "allowed" to say it, but that a world without these magic words that we choose to imbue with totemic power (à la Ta-Nehisi Coates) is probably better.

I know people who think "fag" is an ultra-offensive term they never want to hear and who are worked into a frenzy whenever they hear it, so the word has de facto power over them. I know others who don't care and realize that if a crackhead on the street calls them a fag it doesn't really matter. I think the second approach is healthier, and that the justifications (well you see I was called this in high school so it really triggers me now) are generally not relevant. I realize some people can't help but get upset. I don't think those people are helped by making a federal case out of the incidents.

I think the white messiah factor plays into this. If you are a white messiah who isn't the target of forceful racial insults then there's little cost to you to make a huge deal out of them when you feel like it. But if you are the target it's different. Maybe it is better to put them in perspective (why do you care what the crackhead or the kid on some video game chat says?) rather than turn your own life into a crusade when you have better things to do. Society is, in any case, clearly moving away from the direction of commonplace racism, homophobia, etc., even if it is not perfect.

I was called frog or French frog countless times and even on occasion pepsi, pepsi-jos louis, pepper, etc. in my childhood and into my young adult years. In some cases there were physical and other repercussions to the prejudice that went beyond words too.

I haven't been called that or even overhead that in years though. Part of that is surely because I've been living in Quebec for over two decades and I spend most of my time here, though I also believe that even if I lived in Ontario it's probably much less common than it used to be.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by Acajack

More like to explain to oneself the meaning of life, and what happens to you after it ends.

Now let's get into an argument about the meaning of religion...

What you say is true but there is no "more" involved.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Acajack

"Strawman" is actually going the same way as "racist", and becoming meaningless.

Basically, "strawman" (which I almost never use BTW) now equals "I don't agree with this and it bugs me, but I won't take the trouble of countering it, so strawman it is!"

No. An argument was built up about people being called a racist when they weren't, which devalues the word. Then it was argued that was stupid and devalued the concept of racism and the whole battle for equality.

It was easy to argue against because it was silly and untrue. That's the definition of a strawman argument.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by lio45

acottawa put it the best: in my home province - and I'm assuming it's like that in every province - one perpetually hot topic is how to try to optimize healthcare­, a huge provincial budget item that everyone has a stake in; plenty of non-unhinged people taking part in those discussions, people of various political leanings, with plenty of differences of opinion; however no one would ever listen to nutcases screaming in front of the hospital holding "Defund Health Care!!!" signs.

Well as with anything the context and reason would be critical. Why would they be screaming that in the first place? There are conservatives who would gladly do so, nonetheless.

People are screaming about BLM because people are dying and this has gone on for far too long. You don't share their urgency or rage because their plight is not your own and you don't empathize very strongly. This forum is filled with unaffected people. Some of us empathize more than others. Some think this is all a theoretical game and don't really care at all. Some see it as some kind of nebulous emotional affront they must defend against. But to deem the nature of opinion here as some kind of accurate bellwether on this issue is a bit ridiculous.

[LakeLocker]

Originally Posted by wave46

I dislike the excessive use of the term 'racist', especially in regards to people who aren't really very racist, if at all.

It dulls the meaning and effect of the word. To hurl the accusation writ large on everyone at every chance means the word loses its power. At one point, being accused of being racist was a serious accusation.

Once you start accusing everyone of being racist (ironically by the simple virtue of the colour of their skin) you're going to provoke one of two reactions:

Here's the bait!!!

Originally Posted by wave46

2. They own the word. The worst outcome. You've now created something worse - someone who doesn't care about being labeled a racist. They say "whatever" and shrug their shoulders. In extreme cases, you've driven them into the arms of the people who actively oppose your cause. You've another hardcore Trump supporter.

And here's the switch.


I can't tell if this is a lack of self awareness or just a political philosophy that values empathy over basic basic logic.

This is why I'm seriously wishing that we could start making the practical steps towards a real life partition.

There's just no way I can trust people like yourself, it just isn't ever gonna happen.