The not so Great Racism in Canada Thread

[urbandreamer]

My career prospects were horrific in Montreal which is why I left. I'm not very good at picking up new languages, even understanding many English speakers can be difficult (aspies rarely make eye/facial contact with speakers.) I got stuck doing menial labour jobs in Montreal or working in boiler room telemarketing gigs. From my perspective the most racist people in Quebec were lower class French Canadians and Allophones.

[Pavlov]

Originally Posted by someone123

It depends on if you're talking about legal discrimination in hiring or some other concept like systemic racism. For the most part people in this thread aren't making legal arguments.

Every province in Canada has human rights legislation which prohibits systemic racism. Battles against systemic discrimination are fought every day in human rights tribunals, labour arbitrations and courts. There is a large body of wisdom (always evolving) regarding systemic discrimination in the decisions of those tribunals, arbitrators and courts. Indeed, much of the progress against discrimination in this country are due to those decisions. And yet, much work remains to be done...

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Pavlov

Every province in Canada has human rights legislation which prohibits systemic racism. Battles against systemic discrimination are fought every day in human rights tribunals, labour arbitrations and courts. There is a large body of wisdom (always evolving) regarding systemic discrimination in the decisions of those tribunals, arbitrators and courts. Indeed, much of the progress against discrimination in this country are due to those decisions. And yet, much work remains to be done...

Can you give an example of systemic racism prohibited by legislation? ,

[dleung]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

I’m not here for disingenuous “traps” and people who think this is all a game or a joke.

I’m reminded of a meme I saw recently which encapsulates the mood here quite well:

That sounds exactly like a few posters here

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by someone123

Also, to keep it real, we haven't seen a lot of lived experience posts in this thread from the pro-lived-experience crowd. It is mostly people talking in the abstract about the importance of lived experiences of others under the implicit assumption that this invalidates opinions they don't agree with.

Hipster Duck posted his experience of NOT suffering racism in Vancouver and that was largely ignored.

Yea, my experience is largely similar. Haven't really experienced any material racism in Canada or the US. But I'm not Black or Indigenous, so I do think it would be nice if people from those communities chimed in. That said, I don't think that we should be barred from participating in that discussion like these wokesters say. Using things like empathy, reasoning, and data we can still get an understanding of the situation and weigh in.

[urbandreamer]

Sure the criticism I have of the BLM movement, twitter, reddit, this thread etc is mostly the top 1% of society is setting the agenda, often white people or highly educated PoC. Real change comes from the bottom.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

There's a lot of racism in Toronto, often from one newish Canadian group to another.

Every place / people has some measure of tribalism. But if you think there's a lot of racism in Toronto... I struggle to imagine any place in the world, even your ancestral land wherever that is, that you would find comfortable / not racist.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

But I'm not Black or Indigenous, so I do think it would be nice if people from those communities chimed in. That said, I don't think that we should be barred from participating in that discussion like these wokesters say. Using things like empathy, reasoning, and data we can still get an understanding of the situation and weigh in.

I agree. I think more perspectives, data, and discussion are good, while gatekeeping is generally bad on a discussion forum.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

Sure the criticism I have of the BLM movement, twitter, reddit, this thread etc is mostly the top 1% of society is setting the agenda, often white people or highly educated PoC. Real change comes from the bottom.

The problem is that we live in a hierarchical society, especially inherent in capitalism; we shouldn't have a bottom but it will always be there. It's not just black or non white people who are the victims of discrimination, it actually happens for all sorts of reasons.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by dleung

That sounds exactly like a few posters here

Yes, we’re getting a master class in how to obfuscate. There’s enough of them here to keep the illusion alive.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

Every place / people has some measure of tribalism. But if you think there's a lot of racism in Toronto... I struggle to imagine any place in the world, even your ancestral land wherever that is, that you would find comfortable / not racist.

Exactly. The only way to make sure there's never any "racism" is to have everyone be identical ethnically - and even when that's the case, they'll find other reasons to massacre each other like they did in Rwanda, Northern Ireland, etc.

Practically speaking, "there's no racism" in Canada, i.e. any kid here can hope to rise to be whatever they want, sky's the limit, regardless of their skin color.

The only racism that's kinda normal is with respect to FNs because they are officially different, and a lot of other consequences stem from this basic fact. Just like India's caste system - I expect that there will inevitably be resentment, dislike, jealousy between sets of people who are supposed to live together yet don't have the same rights and privileges. My opinion is that this is pretty toxic, and should be changed ASAP.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

Yea, my experience is largely similar. Haven't really experienced any material racism in Canada or the US. But I'm not Black or Indigenous, so I do think it would be nice if people from those communities chimed in. That said, I don't think that we should be barred from participating in that discussion like these wokesters say. Using things like empathy, reasoning, and data we can still get an understanding of the situation and weigh in.

I don't have any direct personal experience with racism because of my skin colour in Canada, but I will share that my friend and neighbour who is West African claims to have never experienced any direct racism towards him in his over 25 years in Quebec.

He has *overheard* racist things said against black people, and has African friends who have been victims of racism here.

I find his claim really, really hard to believe, but he reports nothing: not even yahoos yelling at him from a passing car, or even service staff being nice to everyone else but rude to him.

I mean, he's not dumb or even naïve. He know it's out there. It is just that he has never been targeted directly.

[Acajack]

On zeitgeist, we had a good example of generally well-intentioned people "getting caught up in the moment" not that long ago, when Jagmeet Singh said this about cracking down on CERB fraudsters:


"The government has said, 'It's okay, try anyways, apply in good faith, you won't get in trouble,'" he said. "Now they're saying you're going to get in trouble and that's going to impact, without a doubt, racialized people more than anyone else."

Which drew this reaction from a (fellow Sikh) Tory MP:

Conservative MP Tim Uppal said he was troubled by Singh's suggestion that a crackdown on fraud would disproportionately affect minorities.

"That would suggest somehow that Mr. Singh believes that racialized Canadians have either committed more of the fraud, or maybe ... are more unaware of the rules that go along with this program," he said.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/cerb-legislation-penalties-parliament-1.5604306

This reminded me of the Toronto mayoral candidate who said that new rules that got tough on repeat 🞵🞵🞵 offenders would be discriminatory towards black and indigenous people.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by dreambrother

I'm reminded of a meme:

"Hi! I’m a white dude who likes to play Devil’s Advocate, because other people’s struggles are theoretical to me. It’s fun to debate their right to equality. While we’re here, I would like to centre my voice and perspectives about a cause that means nothing to me! I’m here to take up all the oxygen in the room and exhaust people who are trying to fight against injustice so that we can maintain the status quo, which serves me. I have no interest in learning, your frustration is my ultimate goal. Let’s engage!"

My feelings exactly on this. This thread, filled with older white men determining what is and isn't racist and how it affects them, is not going to be the shining beacon of dialogue on this subject.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by JHikka

My feelings exactly on this. This thread, filled with older white men determining what is and isn't racist and how it affects them, is not going to be the shining beacon of dialogue on this subject.

Perhaps, but unless the old white guys remain involved in the debate, then this thread will become yet another echo chamber for the radical left and self identified marginalized groups, and the positive reinforcement from this will synergize things to the point that things will rapidly spiral out of control, with the debate raging about whom is the least racist person left in the forum, and the whole thing suddenly implodes into hysterics.

Balance is what is necessary. If balance doesn't exist, then the majority will tune out and actual exchange of ideas disappears........

[wave46]

Originally Posted by lio45

I was merely pointing out that the glass ceiling in this country is actually lower for what I am (French Canadian) than it is for what you are (gay) or for what saffronleaf is (brown).

I had to "work harder", i.e. master another language, just to have my prospects become equal to the prospects that many others had simply thanks to birth lottery.

Absolutely.

Which is why my opinion remains that we should give children the best hand up to overcome any inherent disadvantages and give them the opportunity of succeed in the future.

The 'history behind racism' and 'who is the most discriminated against' game are somewhat useful debate, but I find them trite and non-productive. We like playing the blame game on this continent, but IMO we waste a lot of energy on it and accomplish nothing.

The more interesting question is how we move forward. What can we do to give people a better chance at future success? What can we do to overcome stereotypes?

Using yourself as an example, the mastery of the English language gave you a huge advantage in your business dealings. In fact, the glass ceiling for you (fluently bilingual) is now higher than for me (a unilingual Anglophone) in this country. You could be PM if you wanted to - I'm effectively excluded from the office and rightly so.

I say that many of the grassroots social programs that target youth - especially disadvantaged one - are the best chance we have at eliminating racism. That, along with funding for families who are on the margins of society, will likely do more to prevent racism and poverty-associated problems. Which is why I'm a supporter of the Canada Child Benefit. Bonus effect: kids who have a stable upbringing and good family life tend to be net contributors to the system, not takers. Think of it as a bonus that pays out for the next few decades.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

My feelings exactly on this. This thread, filled with older white men determining what is and isn't racist and how it affects them, is not going to be the shining beacon of dialogue on this subject.

Not sure about "older" or why that is relevant, but it's also very predominantly white males (also of varying ages I assume) on here arguing that racism is almost hopelessly endemic to the "systems" in Canada, and putting forth the solutions they think are necessary for the good of minorities.

Basically you have a bunch of white dudes arguing over what's best for racial minority men and women.

So you took a bit of a biased shortcut to get there, but your conclusion that this is not going to be a shining beacon of dialogue on this subject was absolutely correct.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Perhaps, but unless the old white guys remain involved in the debate, then this thread will become yet another echo chamber for the radical left and self identified marginalized groups, and the positive reinforcement from this will synergize things to the point that things will rapidly spiral out of control, with the debate raging about whom is the least racist person left in the forum, and the whole thing suddenly implodes into hysterics.

Balance is what is necessary. If balance doesn't exist, then the majority will tune out and actual exchange of ideas disappears........

It's legitimate for minorities to have their own places to discuss things amongst themselves, under a sort of Chatham House rule, for strategic and other reasons. But I don't think a forum like this is that kind of place.

As such, given the nature of the country and its demographics, people of European descent are going to be part of the discussion whether someone likes that or not.

If you look at other groups that have made great progress towards equality like francophones and gays, for the most part they did not achieve what they did by telling anglophones and straight people to STFU "this does not concern you and you have no say".

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Acajack

If you look at other groups that have made great progress towards equality like francophones and gays, for the most part they did not achieve what they did by telling anglophones and straight people to STFU "this does not concern you and you have no say".

The idea is to genuinely co-opt the majority into that cause, which is generally happening in most cases.

To wit: If you want to ascend to the highest office in this land, bilingualism is now an (unofficial) requirement. I'd imagine being the head of a major Canadian corporation is likewise.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by wave46

The idea is to genuinely co-opt the majority into that cause, which is generally happening in most cases.
.

Basically: "you have nothing to fear or lose by at least passively supporting my cause".