The not so Great Racism in Canada Thread

[lio45]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

And what in the current situation of French Canadians indicates they are in need of reparations?

The fact that they're greatly discriminated against...?

Try being an unilingual French Canadian in Vancouver. Your career prospects are even worse than if you're a black who's fluent in English!

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by rousseau

I disagree. The (very intentional) suggestion is that people demurring about BLM are harbouring the same attitudes and opinions as those who did not like MLK.

That's not just intellectually dishonest, it's patently untrue.

Times have changed. They are rooted in the same problem though. Both prefer the status quo to listening to, to processing, to understanding, to learning from the pain of others. They prefer their own opinions. They are comfortable. Therefore those who aren’t should just shut up because that comfort demands primacy.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by lio45

The fact that they're greatly discriminated against...?

Try being an unilingual French Canadian in Vancouver. Your career prospects are even worse than if you're a black who's fluent in English!

Ok then.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

Ok then.

For someone who has the lived experience of a unilingual Francophone, which according to you is required for you to be able to truly understand what lio is saying and formulate a response, I must commend you on your English!

[lio45]

Hey, don't jump to conclusions, it's not impossible that he's posting everything through Google Translate!

[dreambrother808]

I’m not here for disingenuous “traps” and people who think this is all a game or a joke.

I’m reminded of a meme I saw recently which encapsulates the mood here quite well:

Hi! I’m a white dude who likes to play Devil’s Advocate, because other people’s struggles are theoretical to me. It’s fun to debate their right to equality. While we’re here, I would like to centre my voice and perspectives about a cause that means nothing to me! I’m here to take up all the oxygen in the room and exhaust people who are trying to fight against injustice so that we can maintain the status quo, which serves me. I have no interest in learning, your frustration is my ultimate goal. Let’s engage!

[someone123]

One area of commonality that will come up is the idea of understanding what it's like to be a minority vs. in the minority. People can be in the majority group in one way and not in another.

If you are in the majority, almost everything is "for you". You pick a random person and you can talk to them, you see an ad and it's targeted at you, and the product is designed for you.

A white person, or more generally a majority member within some culture, can get some version of the "minority" experience by travelling to 80%+ of the world. This will not suddenly give a white person a perfect idea of what it's like to be black, but it can undeniably be a learning experience.

If we say that we can never understand what a person with a different background is saying at all, aside from being incredibly depressing, we deny the value of such experiences.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by someone123

One area of commonality that will come up is the idea of understanding what it's like to be a minority vs. in the minority. People can be in the majority group in one way and not in another.

If you are in the majority, almost everything is "for you". You pick a random person and you can talk to them, you see an ad and it's targeted at you, and the product is designed for you.

White people can get some version of the "minority" experience by travelling to 80%+ of the world. This will not suddenly give a white person a perfect idea of what it's like to be black, but it can undeniably be a learning experience.

If we say that we can never understand what a person with a different background is saying at all, aside from being incredibly depressing, we deny the value of such experiences.

Yes, travel is very helpful. You can learn things but you will never learn as much as the person with direct lived experience, because thats just not possible. An appropriate amount of humility and deference are therefore very important.

[SignalHillHiker]

Three points here.

Discovery Day is on the outs. It's our national holiday (timed the same as Quebec's, interestingly) but the current anti-racist activism will succeed in changing this. Memorial University has already done so, so government I expect will follow.



The two other things are related to statues. The statue of Gaspar Corte-Real outside Confederation Building (our House of Assembly) will eventually be removed. There's no reason for it to exist. It's literally just celebrating a slaver.

Erected in 1965, the statue — according to a plaque at the site — not so much celebrates Corte-Real himself as recognizes the connection between the province and Portugal, through their mutual fishing of the Grand Banks.

The statue has been notorious for years. In contemporary accounts, Corte-Real was said to have abducted around 57 Indigenous people on his 1501 arrival in Newfoundland or Labrador to sell as slaves.

That is enough for many to want the statue removed.

However, according to York University professor Gilberto Fernandes, the history of the statue is even more controversial than critics suspect.

While the story of Gaspar Corte-Real goes back to 1501, the story of his statue is rooted in a more modern era, when Portugal was seeking influence and respect on the international stage.

In the 1960s, Portugal was still engaged with colonial wars in Africa and was under intense pressure from the United Nations because it was one of the last remaining European dictatorships.

"The Canadian federal government was one of the few NATO allies that at this point were still quite vocal against Portugal's empire, calling for its gradual granting of independence to its colonies," Fernandes said in an interview.

One push of the propaganda wing of Portugal's right-wing regime, the Estado Novo, was to clear up their image by promoting the Corte-Real brothers — Gaspar and Miguel — as important founding figures in the colonization of North America, thus making Portugal a more legitimate player in Canadian and American identity.

During an official visit in 1963, the Portuguese ambassador suggested a Corte-Real statue to celebrate the connection between that country and Newfoundland. Premier Joseph Smallwood enthusiastically received the proposal.

The piece was sculpted by Martins Correia, an artist frequently used by the Estado Novo office of propaganda.

"Smallwood … promised to place it in front of the new legislative building in St. John's and surround it with Portuguese soil and proclaim an annual Portugal day in the province," said Fernandes.

Smallwood even invited dictator António Salazar to attend the unveiling.

Fernandes said that at the time, Canada was being critical of Salazar's policies, which were seen as a kind of late-20th century fascism.

"For Portugal, this was a tremendous victory, to have this official formal proclamation," he said.

...

In reality, the Corte-Reals had very little impact on North America, if they even ever got here at all.

"The supposed discovery of Newfoundland or Labrador by Corte-Real is largely a myth," said Fernandes. "I mean there's very little evidence that there was a case, without even getting into the whole point of they didn't discover anything of course because indigenous peoples have been here for millennia."

What is certain — according to contemporary letters of Venetian ambassador to Portugal Pietro Pasqualigo — is that around 57 men, women, and children were taken from wherever it was the Corte-Reals managed to reach and sold into slavery.

Critics of the statue point out that there are now several other monuments, including a recently restored gravesite, better represent the province's connection with the Portuguese White Fleet and its fishers.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/corte-real-statue-1.5609321

That one will definitely come down. Half of Newfoundlanders assume that status is of John Cabot anyway, it's irrelevant.

BUT the same people pushing for that to come down are also pushing for the bust and related park of our last notable Prime Minister before joining Canada (Winston Churchill) to come down. Churchill was a racist 🞵🞵🞵🞵, but after we lost our independence and were ruled by London from 1933-1949, after the prestige of the Atlantic Charter (EDIT: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Charter), Churchill's praise of St. John's... there is SO much devotion here to him. This is where we have a cultural, deeply-bred inclination to keep this statue. I'm excited to closely watch how it plays out, because the level of devotion is similar to urban parts of the American south regarding the Confederacy.

(EDIT: Host Country. Enough to give ya a semi lol)

[Pavlov]

Originally Posted by lio45

The fact that they're greatly discriminated against...?

Try being an unilingual French Canadian in Vancouver. Your career prospects are even worse than if you're a black who's fluent in English!

It isn't discrimination when a bona fide job requirement (for example, speaking English) disqualifies a unilingual francophone living in Vancouver.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

Times have changed. They are rooted in the same problem though. Both prefer the status quo to listening to, to processing, to understanding, to learning from the pain of others. They prefer their own opinions. They are comfortable. Therefore those who aren’t should just shut up because that comfort demands primacy.

Again, that's a strawman characterization of current opposition to BLM. Opposition to MLK in the 1960s was rooted in pure racism. I'm quite certain that some opposition to BLM in the 21st century is as well, but the two eras are not analogous.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Context is everything. Was Canada importing Aunt Jemima was the imagery on the package was really bad? There could be a reason we understand the issues less. For Americans, the name itself is racist.

I certainly understood the Aunt Jemima “mammy” stereotype as far back as 1967 (long story).

[Acajack]

Did blacks ever boycott or shun Aunt Jemima or did they buy it just like everyone else?

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Did blacks ever boycott or shun Aunt Jemima or did they buy it just like everyone else?

I’d speculate that some boycotted and others purchased.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Pavlov

It isn't discrimination when a bona fide job requirement (for example, speaking English) disqualifies a unilingual francophone living in Vancouver.

You're essentially saying that the clear and tangible discrimination we're suffering because of who we are and the language that happens to be ours... is even more serious, since it's more justifiable.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The biggest groundswell right now isn't happening where the mob thinks it is. (They think it's overwhelmingly on their side.)

It's not an alt-right thing either.

It's really in the middle, and it's saying "uhhh, wait a minute now".

You hear very little of this under people's real names right now, as the mob is an extremely intimidating force.

Though you do hear it a lot on forums such as this one, given that we are anonymous.

But it's very noteworthy that almost no one with any authority is willing to say that in front of a microphone right now.

It's not because they're more morally virtuous or enlightened than we are. It's because they are afraid of the mob.

The bulk of the elites never change. Even after the kind of revolutions you had in France and China. There's cosmetic changes at the top, but the bulk of them end up forming the new elite class.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by someone123

For someone who has the lived experience of a unilingual Francophone, which according to you is required for you to be able to truly understand what lio is saying and formulate a response, I must commend you on your English!

Just saw in the news that Jagmeet Singh got kicked out of Commons for being an Anti-Québécois Racist... Comments?

[urbandreamer]

Originally Posted by lio45

Just saw in the news that Jagmeet Singh got kicked out of Commons for being an Anti-Québécois Racist... Comments?

Smart politician: he'll get more votes next election.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I’d speculate that some boycotted and others purchased.

I have a feeling many here believe Aunt Jemima has always been an image. Here's some interesting history on the product and character. Seems to me that the people who played this character did very well for themselves, especially the former slave who brought the character to life.

Little Known Black History Fact: The History of Aunt Jemima

In 1890, a former slave named Nancy Green was hired to be the spokesperson for Aunt Jemima brand food products.

Nancy Green was born into slavery in 1834 in Montgomery County, Kentucky. In 1889 the creators of Aunt Jemima, Charles Rutt and Charles Underwood, sold the company to R.T Davis, who soon found Nancy Green in Chicago. The previous owners had already agreed upon her "look" of a bandana and apron. Davis combined the Aunt Jemima look with a catchy tune from the Vaudeville circuit to make the Aunt Jemima brand.

Green’s identity was first uncovered at the Worlds’ Columbian Exposition in 1893. There were so many people interested in the Aunt Jemima exhibit, police were called for crowd control. Green served pancakes to thousands of people. People loved her warm personality and friendly demeanor, not to mention her cooking. Green was given an award for showmanship at the exposition.

As a result of her dedication, Aunt Jemima received 50,000 orders for pancake mix. Not only did flour sales soar, but Green received a lifetime contract to serve as spokesperson. She was a living legend of the brand until she died in a car accident in September 1923.

After Green’s passing, the owner of Aunt Jemima, R.T. Davis, experienced financial issues and the brand was sold to Quaker Oats two years later.

As for the image of Aunt Jemima, Nancy Green was followed by Anna Robinson, whose image was changed to a painted portrait on the packaging of the mix. Next was Chicago blues singer and actress Edith Wilson. She was the first Aunt Jemima to appear in television commercials.

After Wilson there was Ethel Ernestine Harper, a former school teacher and actress. The fourth Aunt Jemima was Rosie Hall who was an advertising employee at Quaker Oats until she discovered their need for a new Aunt Jemima. After she died, Hall’s grave was declared a historical landmark.

Next, there was Aylene Lewis. She made her first appearance of Aunt Jemima in 1955 at the Aunt Jemima restaurant at Disneyland. The last woman known to appear as Aunt Jemima publicly was Ann Short Harrington. Harrington would make television appearances as the brand spokesperson in the New York area.

Source: https://blackamericaweb.com/2013/03/28/little-known-black-history-fact-the-history-of-aunt-jemima/

[urbandreamer]

re: Aunt Jemima. Just change the brand name to White Trash: they love that HFCS.