Rural Commuter Rail

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Your arguments conflict here.
Both Commuter rail and an LRT extension into Barrhaven only benefits Barrhaven. Who cares what the city at large thinks?

The rest of the city should care. They are paying for it. Hence why we have citywide transportation plans and not individual master plans for each suburb. And in this particular case, Barrhaven's benefit will come at a cost to everybody else.

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

If Commuter rail can provide adequate transit for Barrhaven, then is LRT really even a good idea in the first place?

Commuter rail is only acceptable as a substitute if you start with the premise that nobody wants or needs to use transit outside of peak hours. And you said you think sustainability is important? Do you want to retract that claim?

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Double tracking the corridor would allow for capacity that is greater than both OC Transpo and MOOSE combined. OC Transpo still isn't targeting anything more than 8 minute frequencies, and MOOSE's service would only present 20-30 minute frequencies in the corridor. (Although if MOOSE entirely replaced OCT on the corridor, Potvin also said they'd target 5 minute frequencies).

Potvin claims a lot of things. And as others have shown here, his claims aren't credible, even on paper. Go back and read Charles' posts.

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Tens of thousands of residents moving into moderately-dense rail-dependent communities sounds more sustainable than tens of thousands of residents moving into Riverside South and filling huge open fields with suburban housing.

Not even close.

Those Riverside South residents will have bus services they can rely on and feeder buses to the LRT. Arnprior won't be matching OC Transpo any time soon. Developments in Riverside South are heavily constrained by provincial smart growth mandates with targets on density of jobs and residents. There's far fewer constraints on the towns that Moose would serve.

Do you not understand the above or are you just willing to ignore it because "choo-choo"? I am still not sure if you actually understand what sustainable development or are just lying about considering it important.

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Maybe that's not what MOOSE is proposing, or what might ever happen, but that's what I think.

What you or I think is irrelevant. What we know is that Moose has not insisted that towns it will service impose strict restrictions on development. And it's not really a surprise why. Would kill their business model.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The rest of the city should care. They are paying for it. Hence why we have citywide transportation plans and not individual master plans for each suburb. And in this particular case, Barrhaven's benefit will come at a cost to everybody else.



Commuter rail is only acceptable as a substitute if you start with the premise that nobody wants or needs to use transit outside of peak hours. And you said you think sustainability is important? Do you want to retract that claim?


I don't know why you bother, Charles and myself know you are correct. If guys like Ocheetos want to keep their heads in the sand I say let them. At least we know MOOSE wont be able to get their plans started since they have no money.



Potvin claims a lot of things. And as others have shown here, his claims aren't credible, even on paper. Go back and read Charles' posts.



Not even close.

Those Riverside South residents will have bus services they can rely on and feeder buses to the LRT. Arnprior won't be matching OC Transpo any time soon. Developments in Riverside South are heavily constrained by provincial smart growth mandates with targets on density of jobs and residents. There's far fewer constraints on the towns that Moose would serve.

Do you not understand the above or are you just willing to ignore it because "choo-choo"? I am still not sure if you actually understand what sustainable development or are just lying about considering it important.



What you or I think is irrelevant. What we know is that Moose has not insisted that towns it will service impose strict restrictions on development. And it's not really a surprise why. Would kill their business model.

At least Charles and myself know you are right. The good thing is they have no money to get this scheme started to begin with.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The rest of the city should care. They are paying for it. Hence why we have citywide transportation plans and not individual master plans for each suburb. And in this particular case, Barrhaven's benefit will come at a cost to everybody else.

What cost is that? City taxpayers aren't paying for MOOSE's commuter rail.

Commuter rail is only acceptable as a substitute if you start with the premise that nobody wants or needs to use transit outside of peak hours. And you said you think sustainability is important? Do you want to retract that claim?

Then the LRT should be built anyway? You're claiming that MOOSE is going to somehow take LRT away from Barrhaven because there won't be a case for LRT anymore, but if there isn't going to be a case for LRT after some form of commuter rail is established then why bother with the LRT in the first place?

Either MOOSE's system will end up being sufficient for the residents of Barrhaven, or it won't (in which case LRT is built). I don't see what the negative outcome here is that you're trying to pin on MOOSE.

Potvin claims a lot of things. And as others have shown here, his claims aren't credible, even on paper. Go back and read Charles' posts.

A lot of those documents are drafts or early working papers with incomplete, estimated data. Not final.

If Potvin starts back tracking on his own words then we'll have other problems.

Regardless, do you agree that there do exist possible arrangements between MOOSE and the city that would not compromise service on the Trillium Line?



MOOSE's document's seem to indicate that the plan to follow the development plans of each community as closely as possible. The majority of these communities plan for medium to high density developments. Based on the wording in that document, MOOSE seems to prioritize density to some degree.

I still don't understand how acre lots benefit MOOSE in any way. They would make money off of subscription fees, not fare payments from riders. Why would someone with an acre lot pay the subscription fee, or in other words, why would MOOSE support that?

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

What cost is that? City taxpayers aren't paying for MOOSE's commuter rail.



Then the LRT should be built anyway? You're claiming that MOOSE is going to somehow take LRT away from Barrhaven because there won't be a case for LRT anymore, but if there isn't going to be a case for LRT after some form of commuter rail is established then why bother with the LRT in the first place?

Either MOOSE's system will end up being sufficient for the residents of Barrhaven, or it won't (in which case LRT is built). I don't see what the negative outcome here is that you're trying to pin on MOOSE.


A lot of those documents are drafts or early working papers with incomplete, estimated data. Not final.

If Potvin starts back tracking on his own words then we'll have other problems.

Regardless, do you agree that there do exist possible arrangements between MOOSE and the city that would not compromise service on the Trillium Line?



MOOSE's document's seem to indicate that the plan to follow the development plans of each community as closely as possible. The majority of these communities plan for medium to high density developments. Based on the wording in that document, MOOSE seems to prioritize density to some degree.

I still don't understand how acre lots benefit MOOSE in any way. They would make money off of subscription fees, not fare payments from riders. Why would someone with an acre lot pay the subscription fee, or in other words, why would MOOSE support that?

My advice to you is don't believe what comes out of Potvin's mouth. His whole math doesn't add up and yes by using rail that he has not built he is sticking us taxpayers with the bill to subsidize his private Rail business. The fact you refuse to see this means you have no objectivity in this matter. Truenorth, Charles and myself are saying thing based on the facts at hand while you continue to use assumptions which are more likely to fail than succeed.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

My advice to you is don't believe what comes out of Potvin's mouth.

As I said, if Potvin starts going back on his words then I'll definitely take issue with that. As of now though, that's kind of where all of MOOSE's information is coming from.

His whole math doesn't add up and yes by using rail that he has not built he is sticking us taxpayers with the bill to subsidize his private Rail business.

What? How are taxpayers subsidizing his rail service through the train tracks?

MOOSE's proposal would involve dumping millions of dollars in rail upgrades in the entire region and then MOOSE would also be subject to fees for using those rails. Where are taxpayers paying for that?

The fact you refuse to see this means you have no objectivity in this matter. Truenorth, Charles and myself are saying thing based on the facts at hand while you continue to use assumptions which are more likely to fail than succeed.

I believe the idea that MOOSE would somehow wreck the Trillium Line was also nothing more than an assumption. Get off your high horse.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

What cost is that? City taxpayers aren't paying for MOOSE's commuter rail.

Do you think increased traffic, rejigged bus routes, etc. does not come with a cost? Do you think there's no cost to network balancing if Moose throws the LRT network loads out of whack on one side?

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Then the LRT should be built anyway?

Transit planning is often done based on peak ridership. That's what provides the numbers to justify extensions. Roads are capacity constrained and transit is your relief valve. If peak ridership is no commuter rail, why would you spend hundreds of million extending LRT into the community?

The exact metric use is peak pphpd: peak passengers per hour per direction.

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

You're claiming that MOOSE is going to somehow take LRT away from Barrhaven because there won't be a case for LRT anymore, but if there isn't going to be a case for LRT after some form of commuter rail is established then why bother with the LRT in the first place?

You clearly don't get how transit is planned.

See above. And Google that term. Planners don't just build lines on a map. And if you really want to know how it works, attend some of those community info sessions they have on various transit initiatives.

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Either MOOSE's system will end up being sufficient for the residents of Barrhaven, or it won't (in which case LRT is built). I don't see what the negative outcome here is that you're trying to pin on MOOSE.

There is plenty of negative here. Do you really not see it?

Imagine if all Toronto ever got was the GO system and no subway system. That is somewhat analogous to what is being proposed here.

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

A lot of those documents are drafts or early working papers with incomplete, estimated data. Not final.

All the more reason to push back aggressively and get the desired changes baked in.

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

If Potvin starts back tracking on his own words then we'll have other problems.

Charles bested him with simple arithmetic. I am not certain he really understands his proposal well. Probably why they haven't gotten investors either. If Charles can do this based on a few Google searches, imagine what a business analyst will do with data that Moose has provided.

In any event, I like pushing back on here. We should keep populating this thread. Will give potential investors lots to ponder and ask of Mr. Potvin when he comes cap in hand for millions. And those investors also get to know that there are residents that will protest this proposal and push back.

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Regardless, do you agree that there do exist possible arrangements between MOOSE and the city that would not compromise service on the Trillium Line?

Sure. The arrangement where the City gets to dictate when and where Moose operates. If Potvin wants to sign that deal, I'm all ears.

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

MOOSE's document's seem to indicate that the plan to follow the development plans of each community as closely as possible. The majority of these communities plan for medium to high density developments. Based on the wording in that document, MOOSE seems to prioritize density to some degree.

And yet no insistence on communities signing a hard commitment to restrict development to a fixed zone. All that talk is largely about their service charge area.

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

I still don't understand how acre lots benefit MOOSE in any way.

Despite how many times we've been over this? I am starting to think you're simply not interested in understanding this. Nevertheless, I'll try again:

1) Moose needs a lot of residents in those towns to make this harebrained scheme work. Tens or even hundreds of thousands. Moose does not charge them directly. But will be able to use that residential base to justify charging businesses that operate near its stations.

2) Residents are not moving to rural areas for a high density lifestyle so they aren't going to be taking up near the stations. They'll be living in subdivisions. But you can live in a subdivision in Kanata or Barrhaven, so the only real appeal to Arnprior or Smiths Falls will be more land for your $.

If you've traveled to any large city in the US, particularly the newer sunbelt cities, this is exactly the development pattern you see. Exurban belts 50km away with large mansions on acre or half-acre lots. We haven't gotten that in Canada because driving is expensive here and our weather is not conducive to it. Enter Mr. Potvin's proposal on a way to make that lifestyle feasible. "Don't drive downtown. Drive to the Moose station."

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

They would make money off of subscription fees, not fare payments from riders.

And they need riders. Lots of riders. And the only way to sell them on living in Alexandria over Orleans or Arnprior over Kanata, is with more land. There's nothing else to offer them.

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Why would someone with an acre lot pay the subscription fee, or in other words, why would MOOSE support that?

The residential customers are not living in the 800m zone and paying subscription fees. The businesses that operate in that zone are paying the fees. Those businesses need customers. The large subdivisions outside the zone will provide those customers for the businesses, who will also be riders for Moose.

Do you get how this works now?

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Do you think increased traffic, rejigged bus routes, etc. does not come with a cost? Do you think there's no cost to network balancing if Moose throws the LRT network loads out of whack on one side?

I think you're beginning to stretch what makes this "bad". MOOSE's investment in other rail and pedestrian infrastructure in the area can help offset those costs.

Transit planning is often done based on peak ridership. That's what provides the numbers to justify extensions. Roads are capacity constrained and transit is your relief valve. If peak ridership is no commuter rail, why would you spend hundreds of million extending LRT into the community?

The exact metric use is peak pphpd: peak passengers per hour per direction.

You clearly don't get how transit is planned.

See above. And Google that term. Planners don't just build lines on a map. And if you really want to know how it works, attend some of those community info sessions they have on various transit initiatives.

Then again, if a rail system using the existing tracks is able to serve peak transit demand in that area, why should we consider building more extensions to fill a need that no longer exists?

There is plenty of negative here. Do you really not see it?

Imagine if all Toronto ever got was the GO system and no subway system. That is somewhat analogous to what is being proposed here.

And Toronto's subways don't stretch out to Milliken. (Milliken is a similar distance from downtown Toronto as Barrhaven is from Ottawa's downtown. ~20km).

Sure. The arrangement where the City gets to dictate when and where Moose operates. If Potvin wants to sign that deal, I'm all ears.

I agree with this.

And yet no insistence on communities signing a hard commitment to restrict development to a fixed zone. All that talk is largely about their service charge area.

Ultimately, I do agree that MOOSE should make a commitment to limit development to a specific area.

The residential customers are not living in the 800m zone and paying subscription fees. The businesses that operate in that zone are paying the fees. Those businesses need customers. The large subdivisions outside the zone will provide those customers for the businesses, who will also be riders for Moose.

This isn't something I had thought about and I think it was the missing piece. I understand that now.

Edit: Perhaps "Adding a stop at Fallowfield" could be added to the pushback. That would help balance traffic and transit flow around Barrhaven.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I guess it depends on the design, but a GO style service could probably get to Tremblay in under 15 minutes, add another 10 minutes on the LRT with the transfer time and it is still WAY faster than LRT the whole trip.

Under 15 minutes??? Only the Blue line would run to Tremblay and from Terry Fox would be about 26 km with 3 intervening stops. The UP Express (which is faster than GO) is only 23.3 km and only has 2 intervening stops, yet it takes 25 minutes, so we are looking at closer to 30 minutes on the train alone. The route from March Rd to Bayview has even more stops, so it would be more like 35-40 minutes. This is all assuming we use a train as fast as the UP Express has. If they use GO style commuter trains both routes would be even slower.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Fallowfield isn't in much of a better location. The two stations are on opposite corners of Barrhaven. There's existing bus infrastructure around Fallowfield, but it wouldn't be much of a stretch to modify bus routes in the area to also feed into wherever MOOSE's station would be.

At least for most Fallowfield is enroute towards downtown. The Moose station would be a significant detour. You are also assuming Moose would build a bus loop. I doubt if they would and with their business model of having people walk to the station, it would probably be surrounded by high density housing with only paths and a small driveway leading to the station, making intermodal transfers intentionally inconvenient.

The other two places you mention aren't nearly as bad as Barrhaven's case.

Not as bad true, but not within walking distance of many existing resedences, and once again they would probably make transfers from buses inconvenient as well.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

I think you're beginning to stretch what makes this "bad".

Not as much as you're willing to stretch Mr. Potvin's words to give Moose the benefit of the doubt:

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

MOOSE's investment in other rail and pedestrian infrastructure in the area can help offset those costs.

So now Moose is going to build pedestrian infrastructure in Barrhaven?

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

And Toronto's subways don't stretch out to Milliken. (Milliken is a similar distance from downtown Toronto as Barrhaven is from Ottawa's downtown. ~20km).

You mean the Miliken that is an 11 min bus ride (about 8 km) from Scarborough Town Centre, which will have a subway stop when the SSE is built? So that would make Miliken about as far from the subway as Barrhaven would be from the LRT.

And your red herring really ignores context. The GTA is far bigger. Being 20 km from downtown Toronto, on the edge of the 416, is like being in Nepean at the edge of the greenbelt in Ottawa.

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Then again, if a rail system using the existing tracks is able to serve peak transit demand in that area, why should we consider building more extensions to fill a need that no longer exists?

Because we might want to provide serve more than that area or have other goals, like increased frequency.

An important question you should ask residents in Barrhaven is whether they'd rather have a commuter rail service like GO with one station in their hood with a train every 30 mins or an LRT with 2-3 stops showing up every 3-5 minutes.

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Ultimately, I do agree that MOOSE should make a commitment to limit development to a specific area.

Only took several pages of discussion to here....

And yes, without it, we should be fighting them every bit. I have said this from the beginning, if they were going to help deliver cute little European towns, I'd support them. Their plans, however, don't seem to indicate that ambition.

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Edit: Perhaps "Adding a stop at Fallowfield" could be added to the pushback. That would help balance traffic and transit flow around Barrhaven.

All or nothing. What makes keeping Fallowfield any different than any other station they are proposing to move. Their business model requires them to establish stations where they can collect "subscription fees". Why would anybody near an existing station pay Moose when OC Tranpo already provides high frequency rapid transit near them? So if Moose comes to pass, either we force them to largely use existing stations or we allow them to build new stations everywhere with all the consequences for transport planning and zoning that go with it.

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

This isn't something I had thought about and I think it was the missing piece. I understand that now.

I hope you are starting to see why I oppose this proposal. I see nothing in here that is good for Ottawa or good for the environment. Potvin is a bumbling train enthusiast inconveniencing the city at best. Or a wolf in sheep's clothing looking to pave over the countryside with large subdivisions that will drive Moose's revenue model. Neither viewpoint is in the public's best interest.

And whenever we turn to issues like sustainability or what form of development is in the city's interest, he dodges the questions or disappears. I consider it pretty telling that he thought nothing of arguing that OC Transpo should simply hand over the corridor to Moose. And then when pressed said some day they'll be able to operate the same frequencies as OC Transpo today. What resident or business along the Trillium Line would be re-assured by that?

Thankfully, I suspect in a years time when we start getting shovels in the ground for Stage 2, Mr. Potvin will truly fade into the background.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

At least for most Fallowfield is enroute towards downtown. The Moose station would be a significant detour. You are also assuming Moose would build a bus loop. I doubt if they would and with their business model of having people walk to the station, it would probably be surrounded by high density housing with only paths and a small driveway leading to the station, making intermodal transfers intentionally inconvenient.

Moose wouldn't own any land other than the station. So they could build a bus loop. But why would OC Transpo feed riders onto a rival system? Feeder services are not cheap to run. And if OC Transpo doesn't do it, would Moose run buses into the community, given that they've stated they don't intend to charge fares?

Also, nobody has any idea what kind of zoning there would be around the station. Moose doesn't control zoning. The municipality does. And Moose doesn't expect any municipality to agree to a covenant on limiting development to high density near its stations.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Because we might want to provide serve more than that area or have other goals, like increased frequency.

An important question you should ask residents in Barrhaven is whether they'd rather have a commuter rail service like GO with one station in their hood with a train every 30 mins or an LRT with 2-3 stops showing up every 3-5 minutes.

Sure, of course they'd want LRT. But, going back to what you said earlier about the rest of the city having a say in how we spend money to improve transit, I don't really get how the rest of the city is supposed to support spending significantly more money on an LRT extension if a commuter rail system can accomplish the same task for far less. Especially if that commuter system might be doable years before LRT is even considered. By the time the city begins looking at Stage 4 Barrhaven may have grown to be able to support both.

I'd also like an LRT stop down the street from where I live, but I'm not going to get it because it obviously has no benefit over the existing transit in this area.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The real concern are all the acre lot subdivisions that will pop up outside that radius, who can drive up to the Moose Station in their pickup trucks and SUVs before jumping on the commuter train with their grande double mocha frappacino in hand.

Playing devil's advocate here, MOOSE won't want to give those who live more than 800 m from the station and thus not paying their tax to ride the train, so there is no incentive for them to build a park and ride for these people to park their "up trucks and SUVs" at. A park and ride would act as an obstacle for their target market to walk to the station.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

And your red herring really ignores context. The GTA is far bigger. Being 20 km from downtown Toronto, on the edge of the 416, is like being in Nepean at the edge of the greenbelt in Ottawa.

Toronto is also a bad example as capital projects to improve the TTC have been ignored for decades. Vancouver an Montreal are much better examples and their metro and Skytrain extend much further into the suburbs than the TTC does.

Also, none of those cities have an urban greenbelt like Ottawa does (Toronto has a greenbelt, but it is much further from the core and thus does a better job at containing the city).

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Moose wouldn't own any land other than the station. So they could build a bus loop.

Who is they? The developers who own the land won't want to give away to OC Transpo to build a bus loop that devalues their development. The City could expropriate the land, but then they would have to pay market value.

But why would OC Transpo feed riders onto a rival system? Feeder services are not cheap to run. And if OC Transpo doesn't do it, would Moose run buses into the community, given that they've stated they don't intend to charge fares?

Also, nobody has any idea what kind of zoning there would be around the station. Moose doesn't control zoning. The municipality does. And Moose doesn't expect any municipality to agree to a covenant on limiting development to high density near its stations.

True. The developers apply to the city to rezone land, but the city tends to do whatever the developers want since they have highly paid lobby groups and are big contributes to the politician's campaign funds.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I'd like to see the math on this. It's about 30km from Kanata to Tremblay, give or take. And most commuter rail services space stops 3-5km apart. Average speeds would be about 50-70 kph. That would mean getting to Tremblay from Kanata would be at least 25 mins. Probably closer to 35 mins. Faster than LRT? Probably. But not by much when all the transfers are considered.

Look up similar distances on GO in the GTA. Unless, we have some unusual services in Ottawa, can't expect suburban or commuter rail to be faster here. 15 mins would make it one of fastest commuter services anywhere. Heck, VIA takes that long from Fallowfield to Tremblay. And it's not stopping anywhere in the middle.

I don't think 3-5 km spacing is common for most commuter rail systems (s-bahn type hybrid systems have more frequent spacing). Although I could understand where you're coming from because GO has added lots of infill stations in recent years - sadly more for political reasons rather than transportation reasons. I would suggest there wouldn't be a need to have more than one stop inside the greenbelt (probably somewhere near baseline to allow transfers onto the Baseline BRT).

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

But for arguments, let's model out what the time savings would be. Let's look at Barrhaven to Rideau Centre.

Barrhaven to Baseline: 17 mins by bus today.
Transfer: 7 mins
Baseline to Rideau: 26 mins by Transitway today

That's 50 mins. Assuming no improvements from Stage 2. By commuter rail

Barrhaven to Bayview: 24 mins @ 50 kph avg speed
Transfer: 7 mins
Bayview to Rideau: 8 mins

So 39 mins. Is 11 mins for one community worth throwing out the regional transportation framework?

The problem with this calculation is you aren't taking into account travel time to the station.

The LRT option is from Fallowfield, which is relatively central and en-route for most people. There is also a transitway from it to Marketplace, for those who would benefit from it.

Where as MOOSE is from McKenna Casey Dr. which is backtracking and awkward to get to for the vast majority of residents.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Sure, of course they'd want LRT. But, going back to what you said earlier about the rest of the city having a say in how we spend money to improve transit, I don't really get how the rest of the city is supposed to support spending significantly more money on an LRT extension if a commuter rail system can accomplish the same task for far less. Especially if that commuter system might be doable years before LRT is even considered. By the time the city begins looking at Stage 4 Barrhaven may have grown to be able to support both.

I'd also like an LRT stop down the street from where I live, but I'm not going to get it because it obviously has no benefit over the existing transit in this area.

You're still assuming that Moose is an actual, on the go project. It's barely a concept on paper. Meanwhile, an extension from Baseline to Barrhaven is a straight, not-so-complex extension. So at worst, it's Stage 3. Compared to Moose.

At the point at which those are being compared, we need to ask whether Moose is in the city's or region's interest. What'll happen to Barrhaven is far less relevant. Directing tens or hundreds of thousands of future residents to the rural areas while stalling all growth in the City of Ottawa, is not some trivial matter.

Originally Posted by acottawa

I don't think 3-5 km spacing is common for most commuter rail systems (s-bahn type hybrid systems have more frequent spacing).

Actually, 3-5 km is typical for RER/S-Bahn type systems. Look up the maps in most of the European cities. We could arguably go a bit wider in North America with lower density here. And they do stretch out their stops as they get into the suburbs. But there's a limit to that. Spacing higher than 5 km would be very impractical in Ottawa, when you're only ~25 km from downtown. That would mean 3 or fewer intermediate stops.

Originally Posted by acottawa

Although I could understand where you're coming from because GO has added lots of infill stations in recent years - sadly more for political reasons rather than transportation reasons. I would suggest there wouldn't be a need to have more than one stop inside the greenbelt (probably somewhere near baseline to allow transfers onto the Baseline BRT).

This is not suburban rail then. It's an express service from Barrhaven to Bayview, if we're only talking 1 stop inside the greenbelt. It also means terrible service for all users inside the greenbelt. Doubt that goes down well.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

You're still assuming that Moose is an actual, on the go project. It's barely a concept on paper. Meanwhile, an extension from Baseline to Barrhaven is a straight, not-so-complex extension. So at worst, it's Stage 3. Compared to Moose.

According to the city, Stage 3 (which currently only includes an extension to Kanata) may not be built until after 2031. I'm not saying MOOSE is absolutely going to be built by then (if ever), but it's ridiculous to try and frame MOOSE for being the bad guy over something that hasn't even begun planning and might not be built for over another decade. Try that argument again in 2031 (or whenever LRT planning starts, if necessary).

Stalling growth is another matter however.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Playing devil's advocate here, MOOSE won't want to give those who live more than 800 m from the station and thus not paying their tax to ride the train, so there is no incentive for them to build a park and ride for these people to park their "up trucks and SUVs" at. A park and ride would act as an obstacle for their target market to walk to the station.

You're not looking at this properly. Moose's goal is to collect fees from the 800m zone around the station. What's the best way to do that? You won't get that from filling it up with residential. There's a limit to how many residents you can fill in 800m. On the other hand, if you have tens of thousands of residents outside the zone, businesses will pay Moose's subscription fees to set up in the zone. And if towns play along, they will restrict most commercial zoning to that zone to help Moose.

Originally Posted by roger1818

Toronto is also a bad example as capital projects to improve the TTC have been ignored for decades. Vancouver an Montreal are much better examples and their metro and Skytrain extend much further into the suburbs than the TTC does.

Agree. I only want to point out that it's a rather ridiculous comparison to act as though Toronto's subway doesn't reach far out. OCCheetos purposely chose the hole in the system (North Scarborough) to make that comparison. And that hole won't exist if the SSE is extended. If you're in the west end, the subway is a lot closer to most of the city.

Originally Posted by roger1818

Also, none of those cities have an urban greenbelt like Ottawa does (Toronto has a greenbelt, but it is much further from the core and thus does a better job at containing the city).

Ottawa's greenbelt made sense when it was imposed. It's unfortunate that the province has directed all policy in the region at undermining the greenbelt by facilitating the growth of communities outside the greenbelt. And now with LRT extensions. Moose would be gasoline on the fire of sprawl.

Originally Posted by roger1818

Who is they? The developers who own the land won't want to give away to OC Transpo to build a bus loop that devalues their development.

I was theorizing that Moose could build a bus loop if they wanted to feed their rail network.

Originally Posted by roger1818

But why would OC Transpo feed riders onto a rival system? Feeder services are not cheap to run. And if OC Transpo doesn't do it, would Moose run buses into the community, given that they've stated they don't intend to charge fares?

Virtually word for word what I said in another post. Concur. There's no incentive at all for Moose to run feeder services. The absolute best case is they build a bus loop for some minimal OC Transpo milk run service that stops on the way to the LRT station.

Originally Posted by roger1818

The problem with this calculation is you aren't taking into account travel time to the station.

See my Kanata example previously for an example that does not start at the station. I gave the example previously of Solandt to Rideau Centre.

Originally Posted by roger1818

The LRT option is from Fallowfield, which is relatively central and en-route for most people. There is also a transitway from it to Marketplace, for those who would benefit from it.

Where as MOOSE is from McKenna Casey Dr. which is backtracking and awkward to get to for the vast majority of residents.

Agreed. There's no way Moose will be near as convenient to current Barrhaven residents. But then, Moose is not looking to serve current Barrhaven residents, so....

Extending LRT into Barrhaven is also very easy. The ROW is already there. And there's reserved space along Woodroffe from Algonquin to Hunt Club. Some of it is grade separated. They could build that stretch, from Baseline all the way to Marketplace within 2 years for about 800m to a billion in today's dollars.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

According to the city, Stage 3 (which currently only includes an extension to Kanata) may not be built until after 2031. I'm not saying MOOSE is absolutely going to be built by then (if ever), but it's ridiculous to try and frame MOOSE for being the bad guy over something that hasn't even begun planning and might not be built for over another decade. Try that argument again in 2031 (or whenever LRT planning starts, if necessary).

Stalling growth is another matter however.

When the proposal involves hollowing out Ottawa, we should recognize that it's not in our interest and call it out. As it is, I think we'll see a lot of growth directed away to the suburbs with Stage 2. The extension in Orleans, till Trim Rd, for example, now means that it's convenient to live in Rockland and commute. CRT will probably pick up service. And there will be park and rides for those who want to drive to the LRT station.

Extensions beyond Bayshore into Kanata and beyond Baseline, into Barrhaven would do the same. Carp in the West and Manotick in the southwest start looking more commutable.

It's bad enough that we're doing this with LRT. Now imagine the sprawl with a commuter service to places like Smith's Falls, Arnprior and Alexandria.

This is what I mean when I say not all transit is green. There's a good argument to be made, that a large part of the mess in the GTA is owning to GO Transit facilitating easier commutes for sprawling communities. The GTA would look very, very different without GO. As it stands, people now commute from Barrie, Niagara Falls and Kitchener into Toronto.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Actually, 3-5 km is typical for RER/S-Bahn type systems. Look up the maps in most of the European cities. We could arguably go a bit wider in North America with lower density here. And they do stretch out their stops as they get into the suburbs. But there's a limit to that. Spacing higher than 5 km would be very impractical in Ottawa, when you're only ~25 km from downtown. That would mean 3 or fewer intermediate stops.

Yes, we agree. I am not proposing an s-bahn type system, I am proposing a commuter rail type system, which has less frequent stops and is designed for a hub/spoke transit model (which I earlier hypothesized would not work because of Ottawa's transfer-phobia).

There are already a number of BRT and LRT systems available for those inside the greenbelt.