Rural Commuter Rail

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

You know exactly what was meant here. Moose will not be facilitating mobility inside the Greenbelt or even inside Ottawa's city limits. Their entire goal is to provide commuter service which facilitates massive sprawl in the exurbs.

Not sure if you actually don't see this or are being wilfully ignorant.

Once you start looking at commuter rail specifically inside the greenbelt, are you even talking about commuter rail? That's like asking if GO provides any significant transit advantage to downtown Toronto. No, the subways and streetcars do that.

It's obvious that inner Ottawa isn't MOOSE's primary target, but I don't know why anyone was expecting it to be anyway...

As for the rest of the city, MOOSE's plan does include stops around Kanata, Bell's Corners, Barrhaven, and Nepean. Those are all areas that currently (and will for the next while) lack rail service.

Why should we care if those communities disappear? Serious question. Having massive dispersion is not good for the environment, carries a high cost base for infrastructure and provides reduced opportunity for those living there.

I doubt anyone who lives in those communities wants them to disappear. Also, if they were to disappear for some reason, anyone living out and around those communities (i.e. farmers) would be stuck in the middle of nowhere far away from any useful services.

As if that weren't bad enough, Moose is basically insisting that publicly owned utilities be forced to share their assets on terms advantageous to Moose to facilitate the above.

Well, that's kind of how the rules of railroads work.
I'm guessing the reason you see that as bad is because you think MOOSE would "wreck" service on the Trillium Line?

Also, there is exactly zero evidence that those towns would densify. Sheer logic defies this assertion. Who moves to the country to live in a condo? Moose is counting on developers turning those towns into exurbs with acre lots, with the businesses all locating in the core that Moose can "tax" (umm extract "voluntary payments" from). Thankfully, this is not the US. Or this harebrained scheme might have actually come to fruition.

MOOSE's documents show that they want to build up an area with a radius of 800m around their station. That doesn't offer much space for many acre lots.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

I doubt anyone who lives in those communities wants them to disappear. Also, if they were to disappear for some reason, anyone living out and around those communities (i.e. farmers) would be stuck in the middle of nowhere far away from any useful services.

So it would be better to turn those farms into sprawl?

Also, why would you assume all rural communities will disappear if they are not turned into bedroom communities for Ottawa?

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by acottawa

So it would be better to turn those farms into sprawl?

Also, why would you assume all rural communities will disappear if they are not turned into bedroom communities for Ottawa?

I feel like you're still talking about acre lots, or Kanata-style suburbs, which I agree would be bad.

I can't say I know, but it was something mentioned at some other point in this thread.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by acottawa

This is why outer suburbs are clamouring for painfully slow LRT extensions.

But as I said a while back, because of the route and the number of stops proposed, for Kanata at least, commuter rail would be as slow if not slower than LRT.

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

As for the rest of the city, MOOSE's plan does include stops around Kanata, Bell's Corners, Barrhaven, and Nepean. Those are all areas that currently (and will for the next while) lack rail service.

You keep forgetting that the stations will be intentionally inconvenient for existing residents of those communities. The Kanata stations will be optimized for the Kanata North High Tech park (sponsored by the BIA). The Barrhaven stop will be too far west to be useful and my guess is the Bells Corner's station will be in behind the trailer park, which will be redeveloped.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

I feel like you're still talking about acre lots, or Kanata-style suburbs, which I agree would be bad.

I can't say I know, but it was something mentioned at some other point in this thread.

Those are the two options, depending on whether there is a sewer.

I think whoever said that was exaggerating. Turning into bedroom communities tends to make small towns worse. Commuters have few attachments to the community, are less likely to support local business, etc.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by roger1818

But as I said a while back, because of the route and the number of stops proposed, for Kanata at least, commuter rail would be as slow if not slower than LRT.

I guess it depends on the design, but a GO style service could probably get to Tremblay in under 15 minutes, add another 10 minutes on the LRT with the transfer time and it is still WAY faster than LRT the whole trip.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by roger1818

You keep forgetting that the stations will be intentionally inconvenient for existing residents of those communities. The Kanata stations will be optimized for the Kanata North High Tech park (sponsored by the BIA). The Barrhaven stop will be too far west to be useful and my guess is the Bells Corner's station will be in behind the trailer park, which will be redeveloped.

Fallowfield isn't in much of a better location. The two stations are on opposite corners of Barrhaven. There's existing bus infrastructure around Fallowfield, but it wouldn't be much of a stretch to modify bus routes in the area to also feed into wherever MOOSE's station would be.

The other two places you mention aren't nearly as bad as Barrhaven's case.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Those are the two options, depending on whether there is a sewer.

I think whoever said that was exaggerating. Turning into bedroom communities tends to make small towns worse. Commuters have few attachments to the community, are less likely to support local business, etc.

You're right. Disappearing communities is a weak argument for MOOSE at best.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

Just to further your point when you brought up Eurpean cities about population density.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_Union_cities_proper_by_population_density

Ottawa-Gatineau Metro has a minuscule population density of 196.6 people per km squared. I agree that is way to small a number to justify commuter rail.

BTW thanks for understanding what I was trying to get across to OCheetos

To be fair, inside the greenbelt Ottawa has a density approaching 2000/sq km. It's the large rural areas outside the greenbelt that bring down the average. This is also what makes the discussion about building transit to places like Anprior or Wakefield particularly offensive. Ottawa already has tons of rural areas that could be built up with low density housing. Yet, here is Moose and their sychophants arguing that we need to build links to tiny locales 50km away? What's the need, unless you want ultra-low density sprawl?

Originally Posted by acottawa

I tend to think commuter rail is a better solution for the Western suburbs. But Ottawans are transfer-phobic in a way your friends from Europe or Australia probably are not. This is why outer suburbs are clamouring for painfully slow LRT extensions.

Are we though? To a certain extent Ottawa residents have been spoiled with Express bus service. But I fail to see what commuter rail would do for the suburbs here, since Ottawa doesn't have a rail station in the core from which lines radiate out. Passengers would end up transferring at Tremblay, coming from the West. With that transfer, how much time would they be saving, over a straight LRT ride from the West into the core?

Commuter rail works well in cities with higher populations that are further away. Let's consider you live near Solandt in Kanata and work near the Rideau Centre, for a bit of a boundary case.

After Stage 2, you would have an 8km bus ride to Moodie and then a 19 km LRT ride. Time budget:

Solandt to Moodie: 28 mins @ 17 kph avg.
Transfer: 7 mins
Moodie to Rideau: 38 mins @ 30 kph

78 mins total. And that's a conservative estimate. Average bus speed with the Transitway is closer to 25 kph and the Confederation Line average speed on Stage 1 is closer to 35 kph. Could be down to 60 mins with those speeds.

Now with Moose, you'll transfer to the train at Terry Fox station and then transfer to another Greenboro and then again at Bayview to get downtown. Or you transfer at Tremblay on to the LRT. In which case you have a 4 km bus ride, followed by a 30 km train ride, followed by a 4 km LRT ride.

Solandt to Terry Fox station: 14 min @ 17 kph avg.
Transfer: 10 mins
Terry Fox Stn to Tremblay Stn: 36 mins @ 50kph avg.
Transfer: 7 mins
Tremblay to Rideau Centre: 7 mins @ 35 kph avg.

75 mins. And this is a best case scenario where we assume you aren't waiting substantially longer for a train because you're reaching just in time to transfer to the next train.

It becomes obvious above why LRT is better in this application. High frequency means you are not waiting long on the platform for the next train. And average operating speed for the Confederation Line is fairly high. It's on par with the Yonge Line in Toronto. Stop spacing is fairly wide in Ottawa keeps speeds up. And this case only gets better. Extend the LRT to Eagleson and you get travel times down to 67 mins nominally to as low as 57 mins.

I am willing to bet that the city did some basic modelling like the above and reached the conclusion that there's no real benefit to building that suburban rail system they first proposed in their TMP a decade ago.

LRT in Ottawa is not the slow running streetcar that it is in most cities. It's a metro in all but name. Stops are all over 1km apart, which is double the spacing of surface running LRT stops in Toronto. It's fully segregated and grade separated. 35 kph average operating speed is ridiculously fast for LRT. And it's hard to see how commuter rail would do better without a station in the core. There's an argument to be made for more stops and a lower average speed for the LRT to be honest.

Originally Posted by acottawa

Most of the schemes on this thread are not aimed at suburbs, but rural areas.

I'd go so far as to say they are entirely intended to serve exurban communities. To the extent Moose would serve the suburbs...as they've admitted, they aren't interested in current transit users. You gotta take up closer to their new stations.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Once you start looking at commuter rail specifically inside the greenbelt, are you even talking about commuter rail? That's like asking if GO provides any significant transit advantage to downtown Toronto. No, the subways and streetcars do that.

It's obvious that inner Ottawa isn't MOOSE's primary target, but I don't know why anyone was expecting it to be anyway...

As for the rest of the city, MOOSE's plan does include stops around Kanata, Bell's Corners, Barrhaven, and Nepean. Those are all areas that currently (and will for the next while) lack rail service.

See my example to acottawa. With no station in central Ottawa, commuter rail is not helping anyone who lives in Nepean, Bell's Corners, Barrhaven or Kanata. Worst case scenario would be the Confederation Line a few minutes slower with half the transfers. And in all likelihood, given the lower frequency of commuter rail and the fairly high average speed of the Confederation Line and its high frequencies, the LRT would actually be faster. If you want to suggest otherwise, I'd love to see some rough math.

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

I doubt anyone who lives in those communities wants them to disappear. Also, if they were to disappear for some reason, anyone living out and around those communities (i.e. farmers) would be stuck in the middle of nowhere far away from any useful services.

And? There's towns all over the world that disappear when they reach the end of economic usefulness. We don't plow hundreds of millions or billions into transport networks only to facilitate massive sprawl just to keep them alive.

In this particular case, I've said repeatedly, I'm not against some service to them. Hourly bus service to an LRT station near the highway would be a good start. But we certainly should not be using commuter rail as a way to fire up sprawl in those communities.

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Well, that's kind of how the rules of railroads work.
I'm guessing the reason you see that as bad is because you think MOOSE would "wreck" service on the Trillium Line?

That's only the start of my complaints against Moose and the smallest one. Their plans enable sprawl on steroids. We should all be far more concerned about that. It's the Detroit model of development. Direct all growth to communities outside and allow the centre to atrophy and hollow out. Why should any Ottawa resident support this?

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

MOOSE's documents show that they want to build up an area with a radius of 800m around their station. That doesn't offer much space for many acre lots.

And as I've stated before, this is both a bullshit standard and a bullshit argument. The 800m around the station is largely irrelevant. Moose will not be insisting that all development be constrained to the 800m around the station. What will happen is that businesses that need to centred in town will be located near the station. In most cases that 800m radius covers the town's main street and town centre.

The real concern are all the acre lot subdivisions that will pop up outside that radius, who can drive up to the Moose Station in their pickup trucks and SUVs before jumping on the commuter train with their grande double mocha frappacino in hand. These folks won't use transit for anything other than their commute. They will live in monster homes on monster lots. They won't be paying any taxes to the City of Ottawa, while happily taking up jobs here.

Aside from issues of urban design and the tax base, we need to start having a discussion about the environment and sprawl. Transit is not green if it facilitates massive sprawl. Transit should go hand in hand with transit oriented development. Let's see Moose make every town with a Moose station restrict all development to within a 2 km radius of the station. Want to bet that Moose would never consider such a covenant?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I guess it depends on the design, but a GO style service could probably get to Tremblay in under 15 minutes, add another 10 minutes on the LRT with the transfer time and it is still WAY faster than LRT the whole trip.

I'd like to see the math on this. It's about 30km from Kanata to Tremblay, give or take. And most commuter rail services space stops 3-5km apart. Average speeds would be about 50-70 kph. That would mean getting to Tremblay from Kanata would be at least 25 mins. Probably closer to 35 mins. Faster than LRT? Probably. But not by much when all the transfers are considered.

Look up similar distances on GO in the GTA. Unless, we have some unusual services in Ottawa, can't expect suburban or commuter rail to be faster here. 15 mins would make it one of fastest commuter services anywhere. Heck, VIA takes that long from Fallowfield to Tremblay. And it's not stopping anywhere in the middle.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

See my example to acottawa. With no station in central Ottawa, commuter rail is not helping anyone who lives in Nepean, Bell's Corners, Barrhaven or Kanata. Worst case scenario would be the Confederation Line a few minutes slower with half the transfers. And in all likelihood, given the lower frequency of commuter rail and the fairly high average speed of the Confederation Line and its high frequencies, the LRT would actually be faster. If you want to suggest otherwise, I'd love to see some rough math.

Commuter rail is most beneficial to those in Barrhaven. Existing rails form the most direct path between Barrhaven and "downtown" (aka Bayview).

On a slightly unrelated note, MOOSE has also proposed a station near Herzberg Road or March Road along their Arnprior line.

In this particular case, I've said repeatedly, I'm not against some service to them. Hourly bus service to an LRT station near the highway would be a good start. But we certainly should not be using commuter rail as a way to fire up sprawl in those communities.

Remember that this proposal has always been to use existing rail lines and corridors. We're also not talking about 12-car long GO trains either. Rail is much more attractive than bus, and that's useful for MOOSE.

That's only the start of my complaints against Moose and the smallest one. Their plans enable sprawl on steroids. We should all be far more concerned about that. It's the Detroit model of development. Direct all growth to communities outside and allow the centre to atrophy and hollow out. Why should any Ottawa resident support this?

And as I've stated before, this is both a bullshit standard and a bullshit argument. The 800m around the station is largely irrelevant. Moose will not be insisting that all development be constrained to the 800m around the station. What will happen is that businesses that need to centred in town will be located near the station. In most cases that 800m radius covers the town's main street and town centre.

The real concern are all the acre lot subdivisions that will pop up outside that radius, who can drive up to the Moose Station in their pickup trucks and SUVs before jumping on the commuter train with their grande double mocha frappacino in hand. These folks won't use transit for anything other than their commute. They will live in monster homes on monster lots. They won't be paying any taxes to the City of Ottawa, while happily taking up jobs here.

Aside from issues of urban design and the tax base, we need to start having a discussion about the environment and sprawl. Transit is not green if it facilitates massive sprawl. Transit should go hand in hand with transit oriented development. Let's see Moose make every town with a Moose station restrict all development to within a 2 km radius of the station. Want to bet that Moose would never consider such a covenant?

As others have mentioned, newer provincial regulations make it a lot more difficult to do those types of acre lots. Plus, given MOOSE's business model, is it not more beneficial to them to try and keep as much development near their stations as possible since that's where they're most likely to collect money off of their subscription fees?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Commuter rail is most beneficial to those in Barrhaven. Existing rails form the most direct path between Barrhaven and "downtown" (aka Bayview).

Marginally beneficial and then too not by much. Indeed, move the peak ridership to commuter rail and now you have even less of a business case for a future lrt extension.


But for arguments, let's model out what the time savings would be. Let's look at Barrhaven to Rideau Centre.

Barrhaven to Baseline: 17 mins by bus today.
Transfer: 7 mins
Baseline to Rideau: 26 mins by Transitway today

That's 50 mins. Assuming no improvements from Stage 2. By commuter rail

Barrhaven to Bayview: 24 mins @ 50 kph avg speed
Transfer: 7 mins
Bayview to Rideau: 8 mins

So 39 mins. Is 11 mins for one community worth throwing out the regional transportation framework? I don't think so. Moreover, if LRT gets extended from Baseline to Barrhaven, that different drops substantially.

This idea that commuter rail would be substantially faster in Ottawa is bunk. The LRT will be very fast in Ottawa because of wider stop spacing. Commuter rail can only improve on that marginally. With only minutes of difference, since Ottawas suburbs are only 20-25 km from the downtown core. That means the difference comes down to feeder services. If Moose doesn't have any any, you're now going to get lots of people driving to their stations. How is that good for anyone?

Also, since feeder services are expensive and money losing, there is no way the city will pay to run feeder service to Moose stations. So the next question: will Moose provide feeder services?

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

On a slightly unrelated note, MOOSE has also proposed a station near Herzberg Road or March Road along their Arnprior line.

Doesn't change much unless you live closer to that station. You're not trading a longer bus ride for one less transfer.

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Remember that this proposal has always been to use existing rail lines and corridors.

That does not make one iota of difference to the topic at hand. If the province started running out with trains to all those locales, we'd still have the same issue with sprawl.

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

We're also not talking about 12-car long GO trains either.

It does not matter if it's 12-car long GO Trains or 2-car DMUs. Once you facilitate that lifestyle, people will move. The discussion should be whether we should facilitate that lifestyle. And particularly do so with rail corridors and lines that have competing demands.

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Rail is much more attractive than bus, and that's useful for MOOSE.

And we should care about the interests of a private corporation because?

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

As others have mentioned, newer provincial regulations make it a lot more difficult to do those types of acre lots.

If true, then Moose's proposal is dead and we can stop talking about it. But if any serious investor will put money into this, they will want a workaround.

I don't think the rules are as tight as they are made out to be here. There's no growth plans like Ottawa, Toronto, etc. have to commit to. Just more challenges on putting in infrastructure like water mains. That's not insurmountable.

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Plus, given MOOSE's business model, is it not more beneficial to them to try and keep as much development near their stations as possible since that's where they're most likely to collect money off of their subscription fees?

No. Their interest is in keeping the high value properties in their zone. That would be most of the town's businesses. But those businesses need customers. And those customers will all enjoy lower cost sprawl beyond the reach of Moose's charges.

Again, can you explain why tens of thousands of people would mean 50 km away from Ottawa to stay in a condo? If you can explain why that many people would be motivated to make such a move, then there may be some arguments that Moose can promote density. I don't see it.

Lastly, I've said it before and I'll say it again. Moose can prove it's interested in bettering the region by having every town it proposes a station for agree to a covenant limiting all development to a 2km circle around the station. They do that and I'll start advocating for them. But I can bet money, we'll never see this from Moose.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by acottawa

So it would be better to turn those farms into sprawl?

Also, why would you assume all rural communities will disappear if they are not turned into bedroom communities for Ottawa?

This. Can't see why those communities need to grow. Leave them as they are.

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

I feel like you're still talking about acre lots, or Kanata-style suburbs, which I agree would be bad.

I can't say I know, but it was something mentioned at some other point in this thread.

Explain to me what the plan is for the tens of thousands of residents who will have to move to these towns to make Moose's plans feasible. Are you so naive that you think they'll all live in condos within 800m from a Moose station?

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Marginally beneficial and then too not by much. Indeed, move the peak ridership to commuter rail and now you have even less of a business case for a future lrt extension.


But for arguments, let's model out what the time savings would be. Let's look at Barrhaven to Rideau Centre.

Barrhaven to Baseline: 17 mins by bus today.
Transfer: 7 mins
Baseline to Rideau: 26 mins by Transitway today

That's 50 mins. Assuming no improvements from Stage 2. By commuter rail

Barrhaven to Bayview: 24 mins @ 50 kph avg speed
Transfer: 7 mins
Bayview to Rideau: 8 mins

So 39 mins. Is 11 mins for one community worth throwing out the regional transportation framework? I don't think so. Moreover, if LRT gets extended from Baseline to Barrhaven, that different drops substantially.

This idea that commuter rail would be substantially faster in Ottawa is bunk. The LRT will be very fast in Ottawa because of wider stop spacing. Commuter rail can only improve on that marginally. With only minutes of difference, since Ottawas suburbs are only 20-25 km from the downtown core. That means the difference comes down to feeder services. If Moose doesn't have any any, you're now going to get lots of people driving to their stations. How is that good for anyone?

Also, since feeder services are expensive and money losing, there is no way the city will pay to run feeder service to Moose stations. So the next question: will Moose provide feeder services?

Time isn't the only factor that makes rail beneficial. Not to mention that it's going to be years before LRT reaches Barrhaven in any capacity.

I'm also very confused as to why people still think MOOSE is going to "destroy" regional transit in Ottawa. MOOSE using the Trillium Line corridor is not the same thing as MOOSE ruining service along that corridor.

Overall, a direct rail link between Barrhaven and Bayview would be beneficial.

That does not make one iota of difference to the topic at hand. If the province started running out with trains to all those locales, we'd still have the same issue with sprawl.

It does not matter if it's 12-car long GO Trains or 2-car DMUs. Once you facilitate that lifestyle, people will move. The discussion should be whether we should facilitate that lifestyle. And particularly do so with rail corridors and lines that have competing demands.

And we should care about the interests of a private corporation because?

Yet you would support bus service to these areas? Either way, you're facilitating the same thing...
The only difference between what you would support and what MOOSE is proposing is the type of vehicle. Unless you're suggesting bus service without the development side of things.

If true, then Moose's proposal is dead and we can stop talking about it.

Well, all we can really do is sit around and wait for MOOSE to make some kind of announcement. Until then it seems like we're all happy to just guess what will happen.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Time isn't the only factor that makes rail beneficial.

Indeed. I'm no fan of the idea of expanding outside the Greenbelt, but LRT will actually bring more stops to Barrhaven some day than Moose or any other suburban rail station ever will.

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Not to mention that it's going to be years before LRT reaches Barrhaven in any capacity.

I would bet money that LRT will reach Barrhaven before Moose offers anything. I just think it's necessary to avoid normalizing Moose in anyway.

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

I'm also very confused as to why people still think MOOSE is going to "destroy" regional transit in Ottawa. MOOSE using the Trillium Line corridor is not the same thing as MOOSE ruining service along that corridor.

After all the discussions here about the issues with track sharing, you still don't get how this is problematic?

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Overall, a direct rail link between Barrhaven and Bayview would be beneficial.

One community saving 10 mins is not reason enough for the city at large to get screwed over.

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Yet you would support bus service to these areas? Either way, you're facilitating the same thing...

As you point out, people like rail more. I can be fairly confident, we won't see the same level of development with rail, as we would with bus service. Also, with a publicly owned bus service, I know that it's not Ottawa taxpayers picking up the cost. Either the province does it or those towns pay for it.

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

The only difference between what you would support and what MOOSE is proposing is the type of vehicle.

A 50-seater coach bus is far cheaper to run. And given that riders will still have to transfer, will have a slower ride, will have to pay a reasonable cost recovery fare, etc., you aren't going to see the same residential draw.

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Unless you're suggesting bus service without the development side of things.

With any luck, we can toss that on too.

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Well, all we can really do is sit around and wait for MOOSE to make some kind of announcement. Until then it seems like we're all happy to just guess what will happen.

Sorry. But normalizing Moose is not in our interest. I, for one, will keep speaking out about their plans.

[Truenorth00]

@OCCheetos

Let's simplify this discussion. Do you believe in sustainable development?

Yes or no.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Indeed. I'm no fan of the idea of expanding outside the Greenbelt, but LRT will actually bring more stops to Barrhaven some day than Moose or any other suburban rail station ever will.

I would bet money that LRT will reach Barrhaven before Moose offers anything. I just think it's necessary to avoid normalizing Moose in anyway.

My point is that if MOOSE does reach Barrhaven before LRT does, the 11 minute difference is far from an argument against MOOSE.

After all the discussions here about the issues with track sharing, you still don't get how this is problematic?

One community saving 10 mins is not reason enough for the city at large to get screwed over.

I thought the final conclusion was that track sharing was definitely possible, but that MOOSE isn't currently interested. The new FLIRTs will also apparently FRA compliant(?) which would make sharing a lot easier. Also, on Urban Toronto Mr. Potvin has stated that MOOSE would commit to double tracking the entire Trillium Line corridor.

@OCCheetos

Let's simplify this discussion. Do you believe in sustainable development?

Yes or no.

Yes, but I'm open to the discussion of ideas.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

My point is that if MOOSE does reach Barrhaven before LRT does, the 11 minute difference is far from an argument against MOOSE.

Moose isn't reaching Barrhaven without there being a destination beyond Barrhaven they have to serve. There's no real place to put their 800m circle in Barrhaven as we know it today. Hence, a location further west. And with every year that passes, that location will be moving further away as development fills in.

But let's just say Moose reached Barrhaven, I'd like to know how any of it would be great for the city at large. Sure, Barrhaven commuters save 11 mins. But now there will be a lot more traffic in Barrhaven at peak heading for the station. And with less peak ridership on the LRT, there'll be no case to extend the LRT into Barrhaven.

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

I thought the final conclusion was that track sharing was definitely possible, but that MOOSE isn't currently interested.

They aren't interested because they'd have to do it on OC Transpo's terms. And given that peak ridership is a priority for both systems but far more important for Moose's survival, these are competing interests.

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

The new FLIRTs will also apparently FRA compliant(?) which would make sharing a lot easier.

And could possibly require infrastructure, station mods or even a new fleet for OCT.

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Also, on Urban Toronto Mr. Potvin has stated that MOOSE would commit to double tracking the entire Trillium Line corridor.

On conditions which favour Moose's usage (ie they get most of the time slots at peak). This ends up with OC Transpo users suffering for the betterment of Moose's customers.

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Yes, but I'm open to the discussion of ideas.

Can you explain how a business plan that needs tens of even hundreds of thousands of residents to move to rural towns is sustainable?

Doesn't sound to me like you either understand or consider sustainability important at all.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

But let's just say Moose reached Barrhaven, I'd like to know how any of it would be great for the city at large. Sure, Barrhaven commuters save 11 mins. But now there will be a lot more traffic in Barrhaven at peak heading for the station. And with less peak ridership on the LRT, there'll be no case to extend the LRT into Barrhaven.

Your arguments conflict here.
Both Commuter rail and an LRT extension into Barrhaven only benefits Barrhaven. Who cares what the city at large thinks?
If Commuter rail can provide adequate transit for Barrhaven, then is LRT really even a good idea in the first place?

They aren't interested because they'd have to do it on OC Transpo's terms. And given that peak ridership is a priority for both systems but far more important for Moose's survival, these are competing interests.



And could possibly require infrastructure, station mods or even a new fleet for OCT.



On conditions which favour Moose's usage (ie they get most of the time slots at peak). This ends up with OC Transpo users suffering for the betterment of Moose's customers.

Double tracking the corridor would allow for capacity that is greater than both OC Transpo and MOOSE combined. OC Transpo still isn't targeting anything more than 8 minute frequencies, and MOOSE's service would only present 20-30 minute frequencies in the corridor. (Although if MOOSE entirely replaced OCT on the corridor, Potvin also said they'd target 5 minute frequencies).

Can you explain how a business plan that needs tens of even hundreds of thousands of residents to move to rural towns is sustainable?

Doesn't sound to me like you either understand or consider sustainability important at all.

Tens of thousands of residents moving into moderately-dense rail-dependent communities sounds more sustainable than tens of thousands of residents moving into Riverside South and filling huge open fields with suburban housing.

Maybe that's not what MOOSE is proposing, or what might ever happen, but that's what I think.