Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 4

[Future Mayor]

I hope they keep some of the angle leading up to Abravenel Hall, similar to how the set up is now, and not have a giant 500' wall right up next to the newly renovated plaza.

As for the towers on each site, while that would be really cool, the distance between the two then requires two of nearly everything, because I'm not sure how they would connect. Two Lobby's, two check-in desks, two kitchens, two laundry facilities, two house keeping areas, two break rooms. etc

Now that the north site developer has been chosen, it will be nice to have the south plaza remain open. As has been mentioned that plaza gets a lot of use, particularly with OR, and it is major gathering plaza for EVE, since EVE uses a large space at the SP.

I am all for another tall hotel in the vicinity thought, APS, Shilo, etc.

[Utah_Dave]

I can't remember exactly where I read this but I was reading owners in the 99west buildings objections to a building built on the north site of the convention center property. They argued about there views and property values, but one of the objections talked about the buildings height of about 275ft-300ft. I believe it was in reference to the CCH and that led me to believe there could be two towers based on the height they quoted. I don't know how old the info was but it made me a little nervouse about an underwhelming building. I'll let you know if I can find that site again.

[Ironweed]

Originally Posted by HandsomeJohn

No hard feelings, I'll keep you in mind when I have another project ready. Maybe I'll look into the Arrow Press Property.

John, I will be happy to help. I owe you an apology or being rude. Sorry about that. Very best regards.

[Liberty Wellsian]

Originally Posted by Utah_Dave

I can't remember exactly where I read this but I was reading owners in the 99west buildings objections to a building built on the north site of the convention center property. They argued about there views and property values, but one of the objections talked about the buildings height of about 275ft-300ft. I believe it was in reference to the CCH and that led me to believe there could be two towers based on the height they quoted. I don't know how old the info was but it made me a little nervouse about an underwhelming building. I'll let you know if I can find that site again.

I can't imagine that the residents of 99 west would know anymore than the rest of us. They probably were referring to zoning regulations when they spoke about 275-300ft. Wasn't the zoning amendment supposed to change some of the D-4 corners to allow for this height without design review?

[Palladio]

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

I hope they keep some of the angle leading up to Abravenel Hall, similar to how the set up is now, and not have a giant 500' wall right up next to the newly renovated plaza.

I've been thinking about his for a bit, and I actually would be totally okay with the CCH taking a more square footprint than the current triangular UMOCA. I definitely think sight lines are important and worth preserving in many cases, but I really would love to see that plaza activated more. Right now the only time you see more than one or two people in it is before or after a performance in Abravenel. If the hotel is roughly triangular, it seems like it would be shying away from the plaza than really engaging it. The plaza is really square shaped as well, with the grass and concrete triangle below it with the funky topography.

If the new CCH were square, I'd love to see it have entrances facing both West Temple and the Plaza/South Temple/Temple Square TRAX Station. I'm not sure the plaza has anything to gain by retaining that 45 degree angle. (Except of course acreage, but that could easily be made up for by shifting the layout of the hotel down a bit). I think many of us were a bit confused at the new design of the Plaza. I would argue that the layout, while perhaps more aesthetically pleasing than the previous layout, is less functional and less adaptable. But that being said, I would still love to see more conventioneers take advantage of the public space during the day and I think a hotel entrance on the plaza would be great for that.

[Future Mayor]

I guess I don't really mean the exact footprint of UMOCA, but something with a slight angle towards the plaza, and I like your idea of having the entrance facing both the street and the plaza. I think that could be accomplished in a nice manner, with a slight angle as well. (hopefully that makes sense)

As for the height of the CCH, the change in height is to allow for much greater height than what is currently allowed in the D-4(125' with conditional use approval) and the heights on the SP block will essentially match those of the D-1 zone, anything over 100' mid-block and anything over 375' on the corner will still require conditional use approval, I believe.

I find it so ironic that high rise condo owners complain when a taller building is proposed to block some of their views. If the city wasn't growing and demand for taller buildings wasn't coming with that, they wouldn't have a place to live in the first place. American Towers residents voiced the same complaint when American Stores (Wells Fargo) was proposed. Obviously the complaints didn't change the reality. Just because you like your view and may have bought it for the view, that view isn't guaranteed.


Maybe something like this. It utilizes most of the space, provides a little bit of view towards the Plaza and the lobby entrance (red) is oriented to both the Plaza and W. Temple.

[AllOutOfBubbleGum]

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

I find it so ironic that high rise condo owners complain when a taller building is proposed to block some of their views. If the city wasn't growing and demand for taller buildings wasn't coming with that, they wouldn't have a place to live in the first place. American Towers residents voiced the same complaint when American Stores (Wells Fargo) was proposed. Obviously the complaints didn't change the reality. Just because you like your view and may have bought it for the view, that view isn't guaranteed.

You know who isn't going to complain about this location and the amount of people coming in and out of that hotel/condo/apartments, City Creek Mall.

[Marvland]

Originally Posted by ctobsl

I still believe they should use both the South and North sites and build to towers that are thin and tall (40 to 45 and a 20 to 30), the taller of the two on the South side.

This. Two towers, stagger height. That 600 footer will be a giant phallus on our skyline ala OKC for while. I know it's only temporary, but I would much rather have a 450-500 footer and a 250-300 footer. Be a cool gateway view into the city from the west. Logistics would be tough with two split towers in a hotel operation. Maybe the short one is condos??

[Future Mayor]

While I can see your concern. I'd say the OKC example is a bit of a stretch. Even if the new CCH hits 600', the COB is a 420' and higher in start elevation, taking the elevation change out of the equation, that's only a difference of 180' A quick look at a Topo map and it appears that the COB is about 40' higher than the UMOCA. So that difference is in visual height is only around 140' Less than half the difference than OKC.

OKC's tallest at 855' is 344' taller than it's next tallest building, and they only have 10 total buildings over 300'. While Salt Lake City has 12 over 300'

[Makid]

The following is my imagined layout for the CCH and Residential on the North site. No inside knowledge of any plans, just my thoughts:

CCH1 by makid, on Flickr

Green: Open Space
Black: Underground parking and service connections. Work with CCR to use the existing parking connection to reduce curb cuts and pedestrian crossings.
Purple: 35 Story (400') Residential building
Red: New meeting space (extends under Blue) and new Welcome Center/Gift Shop
Blue: 45 Story (550') 1,200 room CCH tower.

This would allow 2 towers, both skinnier than a combined single tower.

The Red meeting space area could be open space on the top to allow for additional outdoor space for meetings, conventions, restaurant or other purpose.

HandsomeJohn, I hope you success in your next project and I would love to see what you could do with the APS land.

[Highrise_Mike]

I say if there is a chance at getting a 600'+ tower, lets go for it!! Just like it was mentioned earlier, it would be quite a bit taller but in the future more 500'+ towers will come and balance out the skyline. As Salt Lake grows, the demand for office will only increase and taller towers will come. This is an extreme example compared to SL but the Chicago skyline didnt get to where it is over night. I say bring on the height!!

[jedikermit]

Handsome John,

Thanks for sharing that with us -- very informative. Hoping to see more from you soon.

[Orlando]

Originally Posted by Makid

The following is my imagined layout for the CCH and Residential on the North site. No inside knowledge of any plans, just my thoughts:

Makid,
Unless I read the rfp wrong, none of the existing Salt Palace is to be demolished.

[s.p.hansen]

Originally Posted by Orlando

Makid,
Unless I read the rfp wrong, none of the existing Salt Palace is to be demolished.

Yeah, what Makid has indicated under the blue doesn't seem like it's gonna go down nor is it in the plans, but the part of it that is the Utah Museum of Contemporary Art seems like fair game. In one of the articles that came out when the Omni Deal fell through, tearing it down was mentioned... I think. I'll have to check.




Salt Lake City building a much higher profile museum to replace this one (hopefully on some of the green-space near the library) would ultimately be a net gain for the city.

[arkhitektor]

I'm not sure why the developer is considering adding residential to their proposal. Are they talking condos or apartments? It doesn't seem like there is anything close to enough demand at this point to support any more for-sale condo units downtown currently, and when there is, Cascade will meet that demand. Moreover, why would anyone want to live in a hotel complex attached to a convention center? It doesn't seem like the best place for a residence.

[Liberty Wellsian]

Originally Posted by arkhitektor

I'm not sure why the developer is considering adding residential to their proposal. Are they talking condos or apartments? It doesn't seem like there is anything close to enough demand at this point to support any more for-sale condo units downtown currently, and when there is, Cascade will meet that demand. Moreover, why would anyone want to live in a hotel complex attached to a convention center? It doesn't seem like the best place for a residence.

Why would anyone want to live in a building with the views this one will have? Who wants to look out their window and have a birds eye view of Temple Square, the Wasatch range, or downtown SLC? Definitely not appealing. Why would anyone want to live so close to the best entertainment and food the state has to offer. Why commute by elevator and miss out on rush hour, you would never catch up on the news! I'm with you, living there sounds awful.

[arkhitektor]

Originally Posted by Liberty Wellsian

Why would anyone want to live in a building with the views this one will have? Who wants to look out their window and have a birds eye view of Temple Square, the Wasatch range, or downtown SLC? Definitely not appealing. Why would anyone want to live so close to the best entertainment and food the state has to offer. Why commute by elevator and miss out on rush hour, you would never catch up on the news! I'm with you, living there sounds awful.

Couldn't you get all that in one of the many unsold units across the street at 99 W.?

The lifestyle you're describing is that of living downtown as a whole. Living in a unit attached to the convention center puts your home on a block that offers literally no services for a resident whatsoever, apart from being close to Abravanel Hall for attending the symphony.

[jtrent77]

Originally Posted by arkhitektor

Couldn't you get all that in one of the many unsold units across the street at 99 W.?

The lifestyle you're describing is that of living downtown as a whole. Living in a unit attached to the convention center puts your home on a block that offers literally no services for a resident whatsoever, apart from being close to Abravanel Hall for attending the symphony.

It seems a lot of hotels these days are doing something similar to this but, I am not aware of it being done in Utah, yet (but I could easily be wrong as I live out of state). The hotel and the residences are connected so that all, ALL, the amenities can be shared. You are sitting home late at night and you want room service? just call the front desk and you have the hotel kitchen available. You suddenly want a massage? Go down the elevator to the hotel spa or have a massage therapist come to you, etc. etc. So what kind of people might this appeal to? It could appeal to very wealthy and/or corporate clientele. For example, Electronic Arts has a presence in Salt Lake, but there HQ is somewhere else, so when people are visiting from HQ you can stay in the corporate housing which happens to be part of the hotel.

Are many people that are your everyday Joe going to buying a hotel residence? Probably not, but that doesn't mean the units won't be sold.

[delts145]

Not sure what the mix of residence vs. hotel rooms would be. When your dealing with the residences of a Ritz or St. Regis the trend has been very successful, as far as second homes go. Also, I would imagine those residences would be set up on what has become a very popular trend in ownership. The owners who are not likely to be present for a major part of the year, will be required to rent out their units to travelers/convention goers for a certain percentage of time. This, taking advantage of an excellent real estate investment, while covering all or a major part of their mortgage. At the same time the residences are meticulously maintained and monitored by highly successful and prestigious management companies. This has proven extremely successful in places like Deer Valley/Park City at a long list of the posh hotels, which also serve as headquarters for smaller conventions. Not to forget that not only will this hotel help to bring in the mega conventions, but will also greatly increase Salt Lake City's exposure as a gathering spot for the small to medium sized gatherings.

[EPdesign]

So the residences are more like times shares or like Jtrent77 ppointed out for business stays? This is interesting