Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by Vancity

love NY and Chicago. And yes, I agree. I don't think there should be elevation on Broadway. If it's a subway, then do it underground. and I love those examples from cities that have world class transit systems! Especially NY. We have much to learn from them in the way they've created their subway system.

Well, we can always do the Broadway Line CHICAGO STYLE!!!! And since you love Chicago, you wouldn't mind seeing this on Broadway, right?

From my post in page 302

Originally Posted by queetz@home

Sure....
http://images.placesonline.com/photos/24752_sotto_il_metro_chicago.jpg



As you can see, there is no median for the columns on that roadway, an its just meters beside those buildings. So this is proof that elevated is possible on Broadway. And its so cool, urban, and beautiful, isn't it? I hear that particular train system is world renowned...

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

there's also no space for a guideway down Broadway. realistically you would need to take away 2-lanes of traffic and that street is way to busy for that to happen if we are being realistic.

As you can see from my pics, the footprint for a Chicago Style elevated system is so tiny, it can easily be in place on the sidewalks of Broadway. It does not take lanes so no issue for you car lovers out there.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

As you can see from my pics, the footprint for a Chicago Style elevated system is so tiny, it can easily be in place on the sidewalks of Broadway. It does not take lanes so no issue for you car lovers out there.

i guess if you don't mind it being horribly ugly, right up against buildings and windows, and the lack of sun ever hitting the street again, its perfect. (i do hope you weren't being serious about hat "proposal." this isn't the 1930's. we can learn from their mistakes, like building a hideous line that did cause ghettos.

[Vancity]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

i guess if you don't mind it being horribly ugly, right up against buildings and windows, and the lack of sun ever hitting the street again, its perfect. (i do hope you weren't being serious about hat "proposal." this isn't the 1930's. we can learn from their mistakes, like building a hideous line that did cause ghettos.

yeah. i think if the broadway line was elevated, i hope the design is nicely done. now with that being said, it would create just a ton of inconvenience to the broadway corridor. it's a really busy street right now, and will get even busier. i'd prefer personally, the broadway line being underground. and having those station entries like NYC.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by Vancity

having those station entries like NYC.

yeah i think the NYC style subway entrances would be the best. there is basically no need for property acquisition. there would be one at each corner. the ticketing would all be under ground. and as seen with NYC you can still have elevators. also, since Broadway is so dense it would add a bit of character to the streets with those entrances on all 4 corners.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

yeah i think the NYC style subway entrances would be the best. there is basically no need for property acquisition. there would be one at each corner. the ticketing would all be under ground. and as seen with NYC you can still have elevators. also, since Broadway is so dense it would add a bit of character to the streets with those entrances on all 4 corners.

Gives Hollywood North an another excuse to film here

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

i guess if you don't mind it being horribly ugly, right up against buildings and windows, and the lack of sun ever hitting the street again, its perfect. (i do hope you weren't being serious about hat "proposal." this isn't the 1930's. we can learn from their mistakes, like building a hideous line that did cause ghettos.

Originally Posted by Vancity

yeah. i think if the broadway line was elevated, i hope the design is nicely done. now with that being said, it would create just a ton of inconvenience to the broadway corridor. it's a really busy street right now, and will get even busier. i'd prefer personally, the broadway line being underground. and having those station entries like NYC.

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

yeah i think the NYC style subway entrances would be the best. there is basically no need for property acquisition. there would be one at each corner. the ticketing would all be under ground. and as seen with NYC you can still have elevators. also, since Broadway is so dense it would add a bit of character to the streets with those entrances on all 4 corners.

Yes! Yes! and YES!

[MIPS]

Well, we can always do the Broadway Line CHICAGO STYLE!!!! And since you love Chicago, you wouldn't mind seeing this on Broadway, right?

The major difference is that we're in an earthquake zone. There's no way in hell we would have supports that tiny here. Worst case scenario is something more like this.

[WBC]

Originally Posted by MIPS

The major difference is that we're in an earthquake zone. There's no way in hell we would have supports that tiny here. Worst case scenario is something more like this.

The reason it is like that is it was made in 1910 when nobody paid much attention to silly things like earthquakes, structural integrity or aesthetics.

I rode those trains 2 years ago and they are the noises thing ever. The stations are hilarious. Most of them look like tin cans...

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by Ridgerunner

The vote against the sales tax won't kill the need for expansion of the transit system.

Vancouver needs the whole package and quite badly.


So what revenue generation system is going to replace the sales tax. Politicians do not need, for example, anyone's permission to raise the property tax.

comments???

The property tax can only be raised a certain amount by Translink without further authorization by other levels of government. I forget how much exactly they can raise it in a year, but it is not enough to fund their plan; it is barely enough to keep the status quo.

That's what the vote is about, a substantial increase in taxes. As it is, I pay around $85 in Translink Property tax. I would be paying more than that on the proposed sales tax. So to match the sales tax income with a property tax increase, we are looking at probably more than doubling the current rate.

In the big picture, the amount I would pay is more than worth it for what the region would get back in mobility benefits. But it is such a big increase, the province would probably want another plebiscite.

The province could just impose the sales tax in the Legislature if they wanted. There is no law saying we need this referendum. They are just snake bitten by the HST repeal and the blowback from the carbon tax (yeah, remember that?) that they want us to show we want it.

Also, if there is a no win, they can still come forward with funding for the Broadway Subway. If it is that important, the province and feds can get together and build it without money from Translink (it is probably what the NDP would do if they came to power).

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

yeah i think the NYC style subway entrances would be the best. there is basically no need for property acquisition. there would be one at each corner. the ticketing would all be under ground. and as seen with NYC you can still have elevators. also, since Broadway is so dense it would add a bit of character to the streets with those entrances on all 4 corners.

And we already have a couple of them downtown. There's the Waterfront Station entrance near Canada Place and the Canada Line Waterfront Station entrance on Granville that are smaller entrances than nearly every other entrance. They could admittely be smaller, but they're going in the right direction.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

Also, if there is a no win, they can still come forward with funding for the Broadway Subway. If it is that important, the province and feds can get together and build it without money from Translink (it is probably what the NDP would do if they came to power).

The province would probably have to come up with 2/3 of the money, I don't think the feds will go over 1/3. But in the grand scheme, it's not a lot.

Plus that line should produce profit at an operational level.

[queetz@home]

A very interesting article on the Broadway Line from 24 Hrs Vancouver I'm surprised it hasn't been posted yet....

Mayors choose pricier Broadway Subway option

Some interesting tidbits

“Cut and cover gives you the ability to open up multiple holes in the ground, multiple holes in the ground, multiple trenches — so if you need to accelerate the schedule and you wanted to throw a lot of workers into the bunch, you can accelerate cut and cover by just opening more holes,” Eberhardt said.

“When it’s a machine — you’re limited to what you can do within the machine.”

I guess ultimately, this could be the reason why cut and cover was chosen (likely behind the scenes with collaboration with Falcon) for the Canada Line...they needed it built ASAP and you have more control over that method. As we now learn with Evergreen Line, tunneling has a lot of uncertainty, and the Canada Line could have been delayed for the Owelympics...

One question is whether the soil conditions at the Evergreen Line tunnel route is similar to what can be expected along Broadway. And the answer is yes, they’re very similar, according to John Clague, a Simon Fraser University professor who’s also president of the Association of Professional Engineers and Geoscientists of B.C.

So it can be expected that the Broadway subway would at least face some of the challenges Evergreen Line crews had to deal with.

“During the ice ages, virtually the entire province was covered by an ice sheet … the ice sheet was flowing across the ground, partly eroding the ground but also depositing a layer of till,” Clague said.

The whole region is generally made of the same stuff that sits atop a bed of sandstone. It’s called glacial till — a loose mix of everything from sands, gravels, silts and clays that Clague described as a “complex layer cake,” and how thick the material is can change from spot to spot.

Hmm...sinkholes on Broadway? That should scare some peeps since hydraulic fluid from a bus is enough for UBC students to consider a horror show scenario...

[Gordon]

If the Broadway subway was to be done Cut and Cover , could the trench be done in sections so as to not have all of Broadway closed for the duration of construction?

[officedweller]

Good to realize that the public is becoming aware that a TBM isn't the be-all end-all in tunnel construction.

Originally Posted by Gordon

If the Broadway subway was to be done Cut and Cover , could the trench be done in sections so as to not have all of Broadway closed for the duration of construction?

It would likely be under 10th Ave. which is not as sensitive to road closures.
They just need to make sure the route is determined based on sound engineering practice, not some politician saying the "Broadway Line" must be under Broadway.

Originally Posted by queetz@home

I guess ultimately, this could be the reason why cut and cover was chosen (likely behind the scenes with collaboration with Falcon) for the Canada Line...they needed it built ASAP and you have more control over that method. As we now learn with Evergreen Line, tunneling has a lot of uncertainty, and the Canada Line could have been delayed for the Owelympics...

That's one of the reasons.

The other was that because of Little Mountain (QE Park) being a big granite volcanic cone, they would have needed a different type of TBM (not just cutter heads) for that segment - adding cost.

The need to build it ASAP after delays from environmental challenges and funding refusals at Metro Vancouver led to the switch from sequential precast segments being used to cast-in-place concrete. The cast-in-place method allowed them to work at multiple fronts. The sequential precast method would have been comparable to a TBM (or elevated gantry crane) - working from one end adding sequentially from one front.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Good to realize that the public is becoming aware that a TBM isn't the be-all end-all in tunnel construction.

It would likely be under 10th Ave. which is not as sensitive to road closures.
They just need to make sure the route is determined based on sound engineering practice, not some politician saying the "Broadway Line" must be under Broadway.

Has the City or Translink ever said that cut and cover under 10th is a feasible option? The stations are much wider than 10th Ave., so I wonder how that would work.

Tunnelling does have its own benefits — if it’s done right, the public wouldn’t even know the construction is happening right underneath their feet, said the TAC’s Eberhardt.

Even with the TBM section of the Canada Line downtown, there was still major disruption with the construction of the stations, so this statement is misleading and he knows it. With stations every 850 meters, whatever street is going to be screwed regardless of construction method.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by logan5

Has the City or Translink ever said that cut and cover under 10th is a feasible option? The stations are much wider than 10th Ave., so I wonder how that would work.

It was in a consultant's report from 1999 called "Beyond the B-Line", if I recall correctly.

The tunnel could be stacked, with platforms on one side only
- like King Edward Station on the Canada Line and access Broadway across an adjacent parcel of land like Broadway-City Hall does.

Here it is:

http://www.vancouver.ca/docs/central-broadway/beyondthebline.pdf

The report does, however, reference a bored tunnel on the plans and use of a tunnel boring machine on page 48
and notes that stations would require block long cut and cover excavation (i.e. on 10th Ave.)

This was based on information from the Rapid Transit Project 2000 office
- the Provincial agency that built the Millennium Line (since this was Phase 2 of the M-Line).

All this stuff has been examined before
- it's only the "new" politicians that need to re-examine everything to "satisfy themselves" and give it their own political stamp.


http://www.vancouver.ca/docs/central-broadway/beyondthebline.pdf


http://www.vancouver.ca/docs/central-broadway/beyondthebline.pdf


http://www.vancouver.ca/docs/central-broadway/beyondthebline.pdf


http://www.vancouver.ca/docs/central-broadway/beyondthebline.pdf


http://www.vancouver.ca/docs/central-broadway/beyondthebline.pdf

[logan5]

OK thanks.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by logan5

Has the City or Translink ever said that cut and cover under 10th is a feasible option? The stations are much wider than 10th Ave., so I wonder how that would work.

Even with the TBM section of the Canada Line downtown, there was still major disruption with the construction of the stations, so this statement is misleading and he knows it. With stations every 850 meters, whatever street is going to be screwed regardless of construction method.

That mostly depends how you design the stations and the right of way. If they're not on the road or crossing under it, then it could be as disruptive as building a deep parkade . I don't think I would be questioning Dr. Eberhardt on this kind of thing. I've had him before and he is an excellent professor.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by logan5

Has the City or Translink ever said that cut and cover under 10th is a feasible option? The stations are much wider than 10th Ave., so I wonder how that would work.



Even with the TBM section of the Canada Line downtown, there was still major disruption with the construction of the stations, so this statement is misleading and he knows it. With stations every 850 meters, whatever street is going to be screwed regardless of construction method.

The disruption happening during the construction of the stations wasn't because of TBM being used for the tunneling.

Since the stations have to reach between the surface and the track levels, its inevitable that those single blocks where a station is being built will need to block street traffic, since the street and everything under it has to be removed or relocated so the construction pit for the station can be dug down to reach the tunnels, and then the station built up from the track level back to the street level.

The Olympic and Waterfront stations on the Canada Line were built to be the starting pit and receiving pit for the TBM as it created the two tunnels, and when the tunnels were completed the TBM pits were re-used as construction pits to build the new stations.

[Sheba]

*sigh* I wish they weren't so hell bent on having the whole route as a bored tunnel. I doubt I can hope for any elevated sections after the GNW station, but do you think they'd consider using cut and cover for any of the section between GNW and Canada Line? To Arbutus it's about 5.5k (about 10k to Blanca) - that's a lot longer than the 2k Evergreen tunnel. I wonder if any of it will be open during my lifetime...