Halifax Transit

[coolmillion]

I have to say I'm a bit confused about the Moving Forward plan. Is it meant to be redesign of the network? If so it seems off the mark. It looks like a long list of adjustments and corrections to the existing network. For me this doesn't constitute a redesign. This appears to be a huge opportunity to start from scratch and instead they are working from the existing system. If they had done the former I think there would be the opportunity to entice a lot of new riders. When the new route map is unveiled I think a lot of people (especially people with other transportation options) won't find it that different from before. Perhaps the city will have saved money by getting rid of a few routes that are underutilized or duplicated but I don't think they'll be getting many people from point A to B much faster. Please someone correct me if I'm wrong.
They have asked for detailed responses from riders. This will only capture only how the existing ridership feels about the changes to the routes they use. It won't capture the potential to woo new riders who would otherwise drive.
There are quite a few experts on transit in Halifax and other cities (including Jarrett Walker who visited a couple of years ago) who have made really great suggestions and provided free advice to the city. It's a shame this proposal doesn't reflect more of these ideas.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding the intent of Moving Forward?

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by Colin May

Toronto has subway stations that are ripe for high density development but the lefties oppose such development.

Uh, no. Wrong. Or at least grossly oversimplified.

In any case, we're not talking about existing subway stations--Ford thought he could build a brand-new multi-billion dollar subway through the far fringes of Scarborough by selling air rights for high rises in the middle of an impoverished ghetto-burb (not to be condescending, just expressing the absurdity of the idea).

Originally Posted by Colin May

We don't have that opportunity here but HRM could have developed the bridge terminal in conjunction with retail and office projects on that part of the Dartmouth Common and then purchased Brightwood as a new common to replace the huge swaths that were previously taken for public housing and private use.

Development partnerships can help to finance things. They can't even comes close to taking on the whole burden, though, and in Halifax, it's one more tool in the toolkit. Conservative politicians love to throw out "private sector involvement" as a magical way to fund stuff, but it doesn't work that way.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Dmajackson

CORRIDOR ROUTES

These routes are roughly equivalent to HT's current "Core" routes. The will be number 1-19 with 10 routes to start. These are high-frequency routes with all-day service and will be the main service routes that Links and Local Routes feed into;

Route 1 --> Mumford - Bridge via Oxford, Coburg/SGR, Barrington, Gottingen
Route 2 --> Lacewood - Halifax Ferry via Main, Joesph Howe, Mumford, Chebucto/North, Barrington, Scotia Square
Route 3 --> Lacewood - Burnside via Main, Joseph Howe, Mumford, Chebucto/North, Bridge, Wyse, Highfield, Burnside TC, Isley, Wright. The Crosstown is a new version of 52 with no service to Bayers Lake.
Route 4 --> Lacewood - Peninsula South via Lacewood, Windsor, Chebucto, Robie, Inglis, South Park, South
Route 5 --> Portland Hills - Scotia Square via Portland, Alderney, Bridge, Barrington/Gottingen. On-peak extension to Dalhousie.
Route 6 --> Eastern Passage - Bridge via Pleasant, Woodside, Alderney.
Route 7 --> Peninsula Loop via Robie, South, Barrington, Gottingen, Leeds, North Ridge. Closed loop with two-way service.
Route 8 --> Sackville - Halifax Ferry via Sackville Drive, Cobequid, Bfd Hwy, Lady Hammond, Devonshire, Barrington, Scotia Square.
Route 9 --> Herring Cove - Scotia Square via Herring Cove Rd, Chebucto, Mumford, Quinpool, Cogswell, Barrington. Branch routing for 9A Herring Cove & 9B Greystone.
Route 10 --> Westphal - Dalhousie via SGR, Barrington, Gottingen, Bridge, Victoria, Woodland, Mic Mac, Tacoma. Branch routing for 10B Westphal, 10C Montebello.

The main issue I have with the plan is that most of the "high frequency routes" really aren't high enough frequency. The new 1 and 2 seem pretty good, and the main parts of the 10 are ok. But otherwise, no. None of these routes should drop below headways of 15 mintes at any time other than late at night (say after 10pm) and early morning (before 7am). 20 and 30 minute frequencies just doesn't cut it.

And my god when is there going to be at least one night route?? It should be route 1 plus route 52 (new route3) up to Lacewood and route 10 as far as Tacoma. This is long overdue.

[Waye Mason]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

The main issue I have with the plan is that most of the "high frequency routes" really aren't high enough frequency. The new 1 and 2 seem pretty good, and the main parts of the 10 are ok. But otherwise, no. None of these routes should drop below headways of 15 mintes at any time other than late at night (say after 10pm) and early morning (before 7am). 20 and 30 minute frequencies just doesn't cut it.

And my god when is there going to be at least one night route?? It should be route 1 plus route 52 (new route3) up to Lacewood and route 10 as far as Tacoma. This is long overdue.

Three notes -

1 - the times listed are minimums, not standards, so the new #1 would still run every ten minutes at peak.

2 - the proposed routing moves almost 50% of the resources of HT to the 10 corridor routes. This is a huge change

3 - Medium size cities don't often have all night transit. I did a quick survey of medium size cities Hamilton operates 6:30am to midnight, Regina 5-midnight, Victoria 6am-2-am, Quebec City 5:30am-2:30am. I think probably Halifax should look to 24 hr service on what today are called the 1, 10, 52, and 80 but I think that other service enhancements (the increased ferry service, the new network) need to happen first.

[Drybrain]

I'd love to see a 30-minute frequency all-night route between Mumford and the bridge terminal, with a skeleton loop around the peninsula (say Robie-South-Barrington-Gottingen-Young. Plus an hourly ferry to and from Alderney all night. I bet it would actually have some degree of ridership, and cement the city's aspirations to be more of a real metropolis than, say, Regina and Hamillton and the like. I think Edmonton is piloting some all-night routes, and Ottawa has a skeletal 24-hour route, but that's it outside the big three, and even those are pretty scanty service.

But much as I'd like to see it, I agree it isn't priority number one, not by a longshot.

Broadly, I think the new route changes look good, though I'm not too familiar with the city's existing system off the peninsula.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

3 - Medium size cities don't often have all night transit. I did a quick survey of medium size cities Hamilton operates 6:30am to midnight, Regina 5-midnight, Victoria 6am-2-am, Quebec City 5:30am-2:30am. I think probably Halifax should look to 24 hr service on what today are called the 1, 10, 52, and 80 but I think that other service enhancements (the increased ferry service, the new network) need to happen first.

One thing about night service is that if you're starting from 0, you get a lot of benefit out of even a few runs. Just having a few night runs of the 1 would probably be super convenient for a lot of people, and increase their willingness to rely on transit. The 4 routes you pointed out would be an enormous improvement.

As far as rush hour traffic, I think that over the next 10-20 years Halifax is going to reach a point where basic bus service can't really be improved, if it's not there already. Eventually, buses travel time is dominated by traffic delays and increasing frequencies, trimming down routes, and cutting out stops doesn't help much. Transit in its own ROW becomes essential for decent service, whether it's BRT or rail. Widening roads and building highways and bridges would be an alternative, I guess, but many people in Halifax rightly seem pretty opposed to that, so a significant investment in transit is going to be the only way to keep everybody moving around efficiently as the city grows, and transit planning is going to have to be tied to land use planning.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

Three notes -

1 - the times listed are minimums, not standards, so the new #1 would still run every ten minutes at peak.

2 - the proposed routing moves almost 50% of the resources of HT to the 10 corridor routes. This is a huge change

3 - Medium size cities don't often have all night transit. I did a quick survey of medium size cities Hamilton operates 6:30am to midnight, Regina 5-midnight, Victoria 6am-2-am, Quebec City 5:30am-2:30am. I think probably Halifax should look to 24 hr service on what today are called the 1, 10, 52, and 80 but I think that other service enhancements (the increased ferry service, the new network) need to happen first.

In terms of the first point, I don't care much about the peak frequencies. I assume they're going to be good, but they're a small part of the day. I care about how infrequent a route becomes at other times.
In terms of point 3 we definitely shouldn't be aspiring to match those cities we should be aspiring to best serve the needs of the public. We should be setting an example that other cities can point do when considering how to improve their own services and I'd consider it a pretty big gap in our current system.

Now i agree that streamlining the system is a priority, but not sure about the ferries. To be honest, unless the network is redesigned to put more emphasis on Alderny and Water st. Terminals, I'm not convinced that increasing the focus on the ferries is very useful. They're cute, fun, a historic civic icon, etc. but not necessarily that practical.

[Keith P.]

Since it seems our road network cannot handle traffic in a way that will allow Transit to operate on any kind of a reliable schedule, I am starting to think we need to de-amalgamate the system. Instead of having a dozen buses on Barrington St at rush hours, and since the powers at Transit seem to want everyone to have to transfer more often anyway, maybe we should have 3 systems in one:

- West/suburban for Bedford, Sackville, Timberlea
- Dartmouth and eastern suburbs
- Peninsular Halifax

Then you could have a near continuous shuttle across the MacDonald Bridge from the Sportsplex to a new terminal somewhere near the Halifax side where all peninsular buses would connect. Same with a new terminal somewhere on the western end (not the existing Mumford one which is a disaster). That would keep all the suburban buses off the peninsula and allow shorter, more frequent and reliable service to those peninsula destinations.

I am sure there would be issues that would need working out but this present revised plan is not better in any meaningful way I can see.

[curnhalio]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Now i agree that streamlining the system is a priority, but not sure about the ferries. To be honest, unless the network is redesigned to put more emphasis on Alderny and Water st. Terminals, I'm not convinced that increasing the focus on the ferries is very useful. They're cute, fun, a historic civic icon, etc. but not necessarily that practical.

If you do it properly, a ferry route can be a major player in a successful system. The option exists with good design to redesign Woodlawn/Cole Harbour transit to provide direct service to Woodside and run that ferry 15 minutes all day, maybe even weekends too at some points of the day. It creates a guaranteed 12 minute commute across the harbour and can link to an eventual larger transfer facility built hopefully as part of the Cogswell redesign. If nothing else it defrays the need to build a third crossing for the time being, and maybe forever if people really take to it once the option was embedded. It does take a couple years for new transit in an area to truly take hold, but the new peak-express routes to/from Woodside are slowly gaining ridership. There is little traffic resistance and one transfer gets you downtown in about half an hour.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by curnhalio

If you do it properly, a ferry route can be a major player in a successful system. The option exists with good design to redesign Woodlawn/Cole Harbour transit to provide direct service to Woodside and run that ferry 15 minutes all day, maybe even weekends too at some points of the day. It creates a guaranteed 12 minute commute across the harbour and can link to an eventual larger transfer facility built hopefully as part of the Cogswell redesign. If nothing else it defrays the need to build a third crossing for the time being, and maybe forever if people really take to it once the option was embedded. It does take a couple years for new transit in an area to truly take hold, but the new peak-express routes to/from Woodside are slowly gaining ridership. There is little traffic resistance and one transfer gets you downtown in about half an hour.

The Woodside ferry seems like it would be quicker for those living south of downtown Dartmouth who are heading to downtown Halifax or the South End, which is probably a pretty substantial and growing number of people.

The downtown Dartmouth ferry is much closer to a bridge but is still convenient if you live in downtown Dartmouth. Again, lots of development is happening in that area.

Mainland South (Spryfield, etc.) is another area where transportation could be improved a lot by some kind of link across the water, whether it's a bridge or a ferry. Too bad Halifax weren't just a bit bigger; a bridge probably would have been built across the Arm in the 1950's or earlier.

[Keith P.]

For years I lived in Dartmouth and worked in Halifax. I never took the ferry. The reason was that the bus options at either ferry terminal (Alderney on the Dart side) were bad to the point of being useless. If Transit could not make those ferry locations the site of their d/t bus terminals, then they needed to run looping shuttles to/from those locations on a near-continuous basis. They do not. You are essentially stranded once you get off on the Dartmouth side. It literally was over 90 minutes from when I got off the ferry to get me to areas around MicMac Mall by bus. That is insane. Most of the time when I did use it, I ended up taking a cab from the Alderney temrinal because the bus connections were hopeless. On the Halifax side, even Transit admits you essentially need to hoof it up to Scotia Square to get anywhere. They have consistently failed to integrate it into their system and until they do, I agree with nouvellecosse.

[someone123]

In Vancouver there is a single station (Waterfront) where the seabus, buses, and rail lines converge (Expo line, Canada line, and the West Coast Express, which is a commuter rail service closer to what is being contemplated in Halifax).

I've often wondered if something like this could be created in Halifax when the Cogswell interchange is redeveloped. It may be too late now but there was even an opportunity to extend the North End rail line south into the downtown at one point.

[curnhalio]

Originally Posted by someone123

In Vancouver there is a single station (Waterfront) where the seabus, buses, and rail lines converge (Expo line, Canada line, and the West Coast Express, which is a commuter rail service closer to what is being contemplated in Halifax).

I've often wondered if something like this could be created in Halifax when the Cogswell interchange is redeveloped. It may be too late now but there was even an opportunity to extend the North End rail line south into the downtown at one point.

It certainly can be, though I believe the rail corridor has been overtaken by parking. Ferry, MetroX, MetroLink and conventional should all be able to meet in one spot.

Even with their willingness to go to the public for ideas, I doubt anything substantially different or exciting will wind up on the final plan. I have no proof, but I feel like what is out there now is ultimately Eddie Robar's plan, and not necessarily anything that the front line planning staff endorses.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by curnhalio

It certainly can be, though I believe the rail corridor has been overtaken by parking. Ferry, MetroX, MetroLink and conventional should all be able to meet in one spot.

Even with their willingness to go to the public for ideas, I doubt anything substantially different or exciting will wind up on the final plan. I have no proof, but I feel like what is out there now is ultimately Eddie Robar's plan, and not necessarily anything that the front line planning staff endorses.

That would be reasonably simple. Scotia Square is already a main terminal. The ferry already goes to the water just east of that at the water.

If they ever want to use the rail corridor, all they would need to do is tunnel 1.4km to Scotia Square from the Via rail station.

[swimmer_spe]

The problem with transit in the HRM is that the various parts of the city are all trying to be a small town.

All major thoroughfares need to be 4 laned. Not 2, not 3 with a reversing lane, 4. Then, the traffic can move.

The Macdonald bridge cannot be made 4. So, have it set up that the middle lane is for buses only. They could have lights at each end that would direct the buses to go. basically, buses crossing that bridge does not sit in traffic on it.

They need to have express buses off of the peninsula. They pick up at Scotia Square, and then do not pick up till beyond the peninsula.

The HRM is already facing a severe traffic problem. The buses need various ways to avoid traffic. Having them jump the queue, bus only lanes, and other methods are what they need to do.

The major routes need to run on less than 10 minute intervals.

[beyeas]

Metro Transit seems to me to be caught between two solitudes, and doesn't seem to know what it is. Is it a service that primarily aims to bring people large distance at low-frequency into the core of downtown Halifax/Dartmouth from the far-flung regions, or is it a service that aims to move people at high frequency over short distances within the core?

As a beast of the former HRM it currently tries to achieve both, while not achieving either particularly effectively. Politically it would be death to cleave them apart, but that is what it will take. As funded, it is a system doomed to failure because of being asked to do too much with too little (and the too little won't go away when the expensive to operate long distance runs are funded by sparsely spaced properties paying low taxes on a per property basis relative to the core).

[scooby074]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

That would be reasonably simple. Scotia Square is already a main terminal. The ferry already goes to the water just east of that at the water.

If they ever want to use the rail corridor, all they would need to do is tunnel 1.4km to Scotia Square from the Via rail station.

Tunnels are cool and all... but the cost of that tunnel in Halifax rock would be eye-watering.

I agree though, that if having an integrated system using various modes of transport, like rail, the current Ferry/bus location at the Law Courts is far from ideal.

What about moving the ferry terminal to the open area by the Casino, between the Casino and the dockyards where the Harbour Hopper launches, then develop an integrated bus/rail terminal as part of the Cogswell replacement?

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by scooby074

Tunnels are cool and all... but the cost of that tunnel in Halifax rock would be eye-watering.

How much more would it cost to tunnel in Halifax compared to other cities? Would it be the most expensive tunnel per km in North America? The world? Does anyone actually know, for a fact, that it would be prohibitively expensive, or is this just an assumption that we (constantly) throw around?

There are apparently km's of tunnels under the peninsula (which got a lot of attention during the harbour solutions project), including one that allegedly crosses between Halifax and Dartmouth. There's also the rail cut. Obviously at some point it was not prohibitively expensive to tunnel/dig in Halifax. Why is it so now?

[MeEtc]

Originally Posted by Hali87

How much more would it cost to tunnel in Halifax compared to other cities? Would it be the most expensive tunnel per km in North America? The world? Does anyone actually know, for a fact, that it would be prohibitively expensive, or is this just an assumption that we (constantly) throw around?

Under the harbour is hard, acidic slate. Tunnelling through the rock would be difficult enough, but it also requires additional disposal considerations. https://www.halifax.ca/boardscom/swrac/d...ortPyriticSlateProcessforHRMProperty.pdf

In short, its much more expensive to dig here than other cities.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by MeEtc

Under the harbour is hard, acidic slate. Tunnelling through the rock would be difficult enough, but it also requires additional disposal considerations. https://www.halifax.ca/boardscom/swrac/d...ortPyriticSlateProcessforHRMProperty.pdf

In short, its much more expensive to dig here than other cities.

Slate isn't really that hard or that unusual. It might actually be at the upper end of the tunneling sweet spot; lots of cities have problems because they have deep, unconsolidated earth. Many areas are also seismically active. A lot of infrastructure on the West Coast has had to be rebuilt from scratch because of earthquake issues. Many, many metro systems around the world had one kind of geologic challenge or another.

The 2008 harbour crossing plan proposed a tunnel running from the South End terminal area to the Circumferential Highway in Dartmouth. It would have been a 4 lane tunnel around 2-3 km in length costing $1.4B, including highway approaches. If the costs of this project were absurdly high it never would have been proposed.

I don't necessarily think a tunnel, particularly a tunnel across the harbour, is the best use of tax dollars, but I also don't really buy that Halifax is in a uniquely difficult situation when it comes to building anything underground. I also find the defeatist attitude in Halifax (and Canada in general actually) pretty annoying. Just looking at tunnel construction around the world, Switzerland is about to complete a 57 kilometre tunnel through mountains. Trains will run through it at 250 km/h. Switzerland has 8 million people. Meanwhile, in Canada...