Millennium Line - Evergreen Extension | Completed

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by Tfreder

I would actually have to say that the line is almost near capacity during rush hour. Have you ever taken a train from City Centre to Richmond between 4:30pm - 6:15pm? It's not over capacity, but most of the time the Richmond bound trains cannot fit any more people in them.

Thankfully the evergreen line won't be cursed with those short platforms

Anyone remember when Richmond City Council applauded the decision for single-tracking in Richmond? Purely for aesthetic reasons, which is nuts. They completely ignored efficiency and capacity issues, and wanted a guideway and stations that wouldn't "shadow" No. 3 Road.

Before this, they even went as far as arguing for a separate at-grade light rail section for the Canada Line on No. 3 Road. They also floated the idea of running automated trains on ground level on the street.

The P3 contract was indeed a problem, the design of the line was entirely left up to the private contractor. And a $1.8-billion Bombardier integrated SkyTrain proposal with 80 metre platforms was rejected purely because it wouldn't be fair to other bidders.

Thankfully, we learned our lessons and have applied them to the Evergreen Line.

[st7860]

- i remember reading last year something that mentioned some figures about how many transit police are on the expo line and canada line. it wasn't a lot.

- the canada line has plenty of spare capacity. they just dont have enough train sets.

[xd_1771]

I'm pretty sure the Canada Line's effective max capacity is 40 trains in service. There are 20 trains right now, and the last time they were all seen in service was during the Olympics.
The Evergreen Line/M-Line will certainly not suffer from capacity problems. 2-car trains every 3 minutes is an improvement from the current random-car trains every 5 minutes arrangement, with room to expand to 4-car or 5-car trains every 3 minutes or even more frequently than that (90 seconds).

[st7860]

Originally Posted by xd_1771

I'm pretty sure the Canada Line's effective max capacity is 40 trains in service. There are 20 trains right now, and the last time they were all seen in service was during the Olympics.
The Evergreen Line/M-Line will certainly not suffer from capacity problems. 2-car trains every 3 minutes is an improvement from the current random-car trains every 5 minutes arrangement, with room to expand to 4-car or 5-car trains every 3 minutes or even more frequently than that (90 seconds).

I actually have no idea what is the max capacity when you buy the maximum amount of trainsets for the canada line.

I mean most of the time only 14 to 16 trainsets are being used. so to use all 20 trainsets on a regular basis, i suppose they would need 2 to 3 extra sets as spares.

The thing is because of the way the Canada line was funded(public private etc) its not so simple to even use more trainsets to meet demand. for comparision, on the expo line its easy. translink just needs to call BCRTC and ask them to send out more trains .

[nname]

Its not so easy for Expo line now since this "service optimization" thing.

In fact, we don't even have enough train to increase Expo capacity, as the spare ratio is already so low compared to other cities. So even if TransLink called BCRTC, they'll say "we don't have enough trains"

[Rico]

Originally Posted by xd_1771

I'm pretty sure the Canada Line's effective max capacity is 40 trains in service. There are 20 trains right now, and the last time they were all seen in service was during the Olympics.
The Evergreen Line/M-Line will certainly not suffer from capacity problems. 2-car trains every 3 minutes is an improvement from the current random-car trains every 5 minutes arrangement, with room to expand to 4-car or 5-car trains every 3 minutes or even more frequently than that (90 seconds).

I know the Canada Line has a capacity greater than what exists today, but....those are some mighty long single track sections in Richmond and the Airport, plus the turn around at Waterfront. Unless they double track Richmond there is no way they could have a capacity of 40 trains in service. Long live PPP (in case you missed it the last part is sarcasm).

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by nname

Its not so easy for Expo line now since this "service optimization" thing.

In fact, we don't even have enough train to increase Expo capacity, as the spare ratio is already so low compared to other cities. So even if TransLink called BCRTC, they'll say "we don't have enough trains"

Well...duh...

Originally Posted by Rico

I know the Canada Line has a capacity greater than what exists today, but....those are some mighty long single track sections in Richmond and the Airport, plus the turn around at Waterfront.

One thing that does bug me with the Evergreen Line though is why do they need a double track at Douglas - Lafarge station, including the tail track? Why can't it be single track like the end of the Airport or Richmond?

I just couldn't imagine extending Evergreen Line towards Westwood Plateau, and if is to be extended, its going to be from Coquitlam Central anyway. So having the station and/or tail track be single does make sense, and it would also look nicer for something that will truly be the end of the line.

My biggest fear is the tail track of Evergreen would look similar to the King George Station tail track, which is ugly and makes it so incomplete (of course, for King George, it should really be extended further).

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by st7860

The thing is because of the way the Canada line was funded(public private etc) its not so simple to even use more trainsets to meet demand. for comparision, on the expo line its easy. translink just needs to call BCRTC and ask them to send out more trains .

Either way, there is a bill to be paid for the extra service - BCRTC is not free - and I've never seen any material to suggest that ProTrans has a premium cost per train trip over BCRTC. I believe both operators are able to respond on short notice with extra trains and we've seen that in the past. The limitation is still Translink's ability to pay for the extra trips.

[red-paladin]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

One thing that does bug me with the Evergreen Line though is why do they need a double track at Douglas - Lafarge station, including the tail track? Why can't it be single track like the end of the Airport or Richmond?

The last thing i read about it was that Translink wanted it designed properly for capacity and train storage so it needs two tracks. However, due to complaints very much like the ones about the end of the Expo Line, and because it would have less capacity than that, they were willing to consider a set up more like Canada Line's Waterfront with X switch and shorter tail segments with no switches.

At least, I think that's what I read, and I don't know if there are public final diagrams of what will actually get built.

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by red-paladin

The last thing i read about it was that Translink wanted it designed properly for capacity and train storage so it needs two tracks. However, due to complaints very much like the ones about the end of the Expo Line, and because it would have less capacity than that, they were willing to consider a set up more like Canada Line's Waterfront with X switch and shorter tail segments with no switches.

At least, I think that's what I read, and I don't know if there are public final diagrams of what will actually get built.

Can you share the link of where you read that, or point to the right direction where to find it?

I wasn't aware they were considering changing the double tail track to a single one, but if there is a possibility, that would be great!

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by Tfreder

I would actually have to say that the line is almost near capacity during rush hour. Have you ever taken a train from City Centre to Richmond between 4:30pm - 6:15pm? It's not over capacity, but most of the time the Richmond bound trains cannot fit any more people in them.

Thankfully the evergreen line won't be cursed with those short platforms

The short platforms on the Canada Line are precisely the length needed for the trains stopping at the stations.

When the 3rd "C" car is added to the Canada Line trains to add capacity, the platforms will also be lengthened to match the longer trains.

If the longer platforms were built as part of the original construction, we'd be hearing for decades about the 'damm fools who wasted money on stations with platforms that are too long for the trains" - until the longer trains are added to the system.

[SFUVancouver]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

If the longer platforms were built as part of the original construction, we'd be hearing for decades about the 'damm fools who wasted money on stations with platforms that are too long for the trains" - until the longer trains are added to the system.

I don't recall ever thinking that or hearing such sentiments shared when the Expo Line ran two-car Mk1 trains on weekends or off-peak hours. It was obvious that the line was relatively new and, thus, demand was lower than it would be in the future or as it was during busy peak commuting periods.

I understand the concern about over-building, I just think that the public is smart enough to understand the need to - within reason - build for the future. What I don't think the public fully gets is the nuanced relationship between train capacity, frequency, and level of service. A long train once in a while can move the same number of people as a short, frequent train. However the latter has a far better level of service than the former.

What's frustrating about the Canada Line (as someone who now lives in Richmond) is that the trains are not actually all that frequent when one needs to travel to a point beyond Bridgeport station and the trains are small. Trains bound for Brighouse station are routinely full even as late as 11pm on a week night, and they're 12+ minutes apart.

I think that the users of the Evergreen line are the beneficiaries of the experience with the Canada Line and I'm hopeful that any further expansion of rapid transit (UBC Line, RRT for the Surrey Line) will be actual extensions of existing ALRT-tech SkyTrain lines.

[nname]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

One thing that does bug me with the Evergreen Line though is why do they need a double track at Douglas - Lafarge station, including the tail track? Why can't it be single track like the end of the Airport or Richmond?

I just couldn't imagine extending Evergreen Line towards Westwood Plateau, and if is to be extended, its going to be from Coquitlam Central anyway. So having the station and/or tail track be single does make sense, and it would also look nicer for something that will truly be the end of the line.

Well, it is possible for the line to extend to David Avenue though, since it would be at the base of Westwood Plateau and David Avenue is set to become the major transit corridor toward Burke Mountain. Highly unlikely but it is possible..

Originally Posted by queetz@home

Can you share the link of where you read that, or point to the right direction where to find it?

I wasn't aware they were considering changing the double tail track to a single one, but if there is a possibility, that would be great!

I think he meant instead of having both the switch AND a 80m tail after the station, the latest proposal put the switch before the station and have just the 80m tail section after the station. The tail is still double tracked.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

Well...duh..One thing that does bug me with the Evergreen Line though is why do they need a double track at Douglas - Lafarge station, including the tail track? Why can't it be single track like the end of the Airport or Richmond?

The double track allows them to add a crossover switch beyond the station which can significantly increase ultimate capacity. If the Broadway line ever gets opened then at some point it will reach the kind of volumes which would require that kind of capacity, so it's a good idea to provide for that eventuality.

[red-paladin]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

Can you share the link of where you read that, or point to the right direction where to find it?

I wasn't aware they were considering changing the double tail track to a single one, but if there is a possibility, that would be great!

I meant that they were planning on having two short tails like the Canada Line station at Waterfront, instead of two long tails that have switches and combine like after King George, VCC. I will try to find a source later.

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver

I think that the users of the Evergreen line are the beneficiaries of the experience with the Canada Line...

Poetic justice, I guess....

Originally Posted by nname

Well, it is possible for the line to extend to David Avenue though, since it would be at the base of Westwood Plateau and David Avenue is set to become the major transit corridor toward Burke Mountain. Highly unlikely but it is possible..

Yeah, I forgot about Burke Mountain. I do recall a possible extension for the LRT version of Evergreen Line was to extend it to Burke Mountain. And it could make sense given that area was developed supposedly for transit oriented families. But I do doubt it given that Skytrain is being used and much harder to justify extending it in that direction.

Originally Posted by red-paladin

I meant that they were planning on having two short tails like the Canada Line station at Waterfront, instead of two long tails that have switches and combine like after King George, VCC. I will try to find a source later.

I think I understand, but wouldn't a system similar to Waterfront made more sense? Right now, the latest rendering do show two tail tracks. Its hard to tell how long they are, but it looks like it will be at least the same length as the station.

[Meraki]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

Poetic justice, I guess....
I think I understand, but wouldn't a system similar to Waterfront made more sense? Right now, the latest rendering do show two tail tracks. Its hard to tell how long they are, but it looks like it will be at least the same length as the station.

That would leave space to store a train and/or maintenance vehicle, like the present VCC-Clark.

[st7860]

Originally Posted by Zassk

Either way, there is a bill to be paid for the extra service - BCRTC is not free - and I've never seen any material to suggest that ProTrans has a premium cost per train trip over BCRTC. I believe both operators are able to respond on short notice with extra trains and we've seen that in the past. The limitation is still Translink's ability to pay for the extra trips.

The Protrans agreement is secret so the public won't know the exact cost of an extra train. I haven't read anything either about the extra cost. What people say is that well, the contract says they have to provide X trains at Y time of the day, and anything more than that, translink has to pay for.

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by st7860

What people say is that well, the contract says they have to provide X trains at Y time of the day, and anything more than that, translink has to pay for.

Yes, and whenever BCRTC runs an extra train on Expo or Evergreen, there will be a cost that Translink must pay as well.

[GeeCee]

At Coquitlam Station, it looks like they're moving or expanding the bus loop. There does not appear to be any visible construction work along the guideway location.

I think that they have to set the bus loop back to accommodate the skytrain station, if I recall correctly.