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  #2261  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2011, 12:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Sir.Humphrey.Appleby View Post
It is all well and good that all those things are reasons to do something, but still get back to the main point that they do not provide money to do it.

Just because a project will be positive doesn't make it the best use of money at the time. There is no reason to believe that saddled with additional debt from building a downtown subway that the city would or even could have built the NE LRT line at all. (the NW LRT line would likely have still gone forward due to the Olympics providing a reason to do it)

The city really scrimped and saved to build LRT in the 80s, they laid off police and firemen to free up cash, Klein even tried to cancel the two leisure centres to free up money. To think that we would be at a similar state today but with a tunnel is daft in my view.
Um, I never said it would be in the same or similar state. I'm saying we have no way of knowing what kind of state it would have been in, as it never was built. I am saying that if it had been built, we might very well have what would look like quite a different city. Maybe for the better, maybe for the worse.

In the end, it might full well have been the complete right decision, but I was originally wondering were the numbers to have ever been crunched if it would have actually looked silly. Even then so, as you are probably also saying, sometimes even if the numbers look better they don't neccessarily point to the right decision all things considered, that being namely, as you've stated available funds. This then segways into policy and government, etc. of which then becomes much more subjective anyway.

And I will say it again. Those "other" things do provide money. It just doesn't flow in the traditional sense or can't be seen in the traditional sense. These are indeed such things as pollution, congestion, seperation effects, noise levels, amenity value etc. The whole city needs to be regarded as a system, and not just the transportation system that on its own needs to recouperate cost. Is that not one of the basic premises of public transportation as Fusili and Suburb have eluded to?
     
     
  #2262  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2011, 1:07 AM
Bassic Lab Bassic Lab is offline
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I have been putting some thought into what kind transit expansions could be useful after the three major planned expansions have been completed. These three are of course the SE LRT, N LRT (Centre Street Subway), and 8 Ave Subway. I have come up with six new conceptual C-Train lines. In my opinion these range all over the map, from currently viable to way out there. I have some maps and diagrams but they are on paper so they cannot be posted at present. Hopefully the descriptions are enough to help people visualize what I mean. So, in the interests of promoting some debate about Calgary Transit's future, here is part one of a six part series:


South Crosstown LRT

Phase 1: The East

This phase would function much like the primary six radial lines. It would serve the International Avenue area, stretching from Erlton to 68 Street SE. It would include roughly nine kilometers of track, the purchase of twenty five LRVs, nine stations, a new maintenance and storage facility, and extensive street scape improvements to 17 Ave SE. The projects estimated budget would be roughly one billion 2011 dollars. To function properly it would require capacity to be available on the S LRT and SE LRT at the transfer stations so that passengers could carry on to downtown Calgary. It would provide rapid transit to the eastern area of the city. While the SE LRT, N LRT, and 8 Ave Subway are more important aspects of the C-Train system (not to mention that some of that work would be required for this line to function) this line could likely be justifiable with current population and traffic figures.

Track Routing

The roughly nine kilometers of track would include subway, elevated, and at grade portions. On the west end it begins as a subway below 25 Ave SE just east of Macleod Trail. It will then move east underneath the 25 Ave SE until just after Spiller Road. From there it rises to become elevated and continues straight east following 26 Ave SE. It then continues east crossing overtop of Blackfoot Trail and then it turns so as to follow along the side of that Highway. It then continues alongside Blackfoot Trail/17 Ave SE, crossing over Deerfoot Trail, until roughly 28 St SE at which point the tracks will move on top of 17 Ave SE and function as elevated rail in the middle of that road’s ROW. It continues like this until east of 52 St SE at which point it transitions to at grade operation within the median of 17 Ave SE. It remains within the median until the line ends at roughly 70 St SE.

LRV Purchase

Twenty five LRVs, likely SD-160s, would be purchased to operate on this line. They would function in five five car consists. This would allow for estimated headways of around seven minutes.

Stations

Erlton Station

This would be a subway station. It would be located under the south end of the current Erlton Station. It would allow passengers to easily transfer to the S LRT and then access the rest of the city, especially downtown Calgary.

Crossroads Station

This would be an elevated station. It would be located on top of the future Crossroads station. It would allow passengers to easily transfer to the SE LRT.

9 Avenue Station

This would be an elevated station. It would be located on top of 9 Ave SE. If ACAD were to relocate to the old brewery site, the station may be renamed ACAD Station.

26 Street SE Station

This would be an elevated station. It would be located just south of 17 Ave SE directly east of 26 St SE. This would be a future transfer station.

36 Street SE Station

This would be an elevated station. It would be located on top of the 17 Ave-36 St intersection. Four sets of stairs would lead up from the widened sidewalks to the ends of the two platforms on either side of the tracks.

44 Street SE Station

This would be an elevated station. It would be located on top of the 17 Ave-44 St intersection. Four sets of stairs would lead up from the widened sidewalks to the ends of the two platforms on either side of the tracks.

52 Street SE Station

This would be an elevated station. It would be located on top of the 17 Ave-52 St intersection. Four sets of stairs would lead up from the widened sidewalks to the ends of the two platforms on either side of the tracks.

60 Street SE Station

This would be an at grade station. It would be located within the median of 17 Ave SE directly east of 60 St SE.

68 Street SE Station

This would be an at grade station. It would be located within the median of 17 Ave SE directly east of 68 St SE. There would be a large Park and Ride lot located at the SE corner of 17 Ave and 68 St SE meant to accommodate 1200 cars. This would be a future transfer station.


Maintenance and Storage Facility

The Maintenance and Storage Facility would include a repair bay and indoor storage for thirty LRVs initially with the ability to expand to accommodate a total of sixty LRVs. It would be located on the greenfield south of 26 Ave SE, north of Blackfoot Trail SE, and east of Highfield Road SE.

Street Scape Improvements

This portion of the project would primarily involve extensive work to improve the pedestrian realm along 17 Ave SE and some related road work. The ROW of 17 Ave SE would be widened significantly from 28 St SE to 54 St SE. The new cross section would include a median just wide enough for the track supports, two driving lanes in each direction, a parking lane on each side, and wide sidewalks of twenty five feet on each side. This would allow room for light to penetrate to the sidewalks despite the elevated rail. There would also be a new bridge for 17 Ave SE over the railway tracks just east of Hubalta Road SE.



Phase 2: The West

This phase would function differently from the six radial lines. It would act to promote local travel and transfers to other lines more than as a commuter line. As the C-Train network is expanded with more non-radial lines it would allow riders to bypass downtown. It would require significant densification along the route and expansion of Mount Royal University to justify its construction. There would be no Park and Rides along the entire route. Cost is difficult to estimate since Calgary has yet to build much in the way of subways to compare it to. That said, a figure upwards of one and a half billion dollars would make sense. There would need to be very little in the way of property acquisition, just the odd lot for a station entrance, as compared to Phase 1 since the route will follow existing ROWs with no expansion. This will save some costs but the huge amount of digging required will still make it expensive. Other expansions would likely be justified in receiving funding prior to this phase.

Track Routing

The roughly six kilometers of track would all be in below grade grade subways. From the end of the Phase 1 tracks it would continue west under 25 Ave SW until the Elbow River where it would veer south west so as to continue west under 26 Ave SW. It would then continue under Elbow Drive, or the park immediately east of it, until 32 Ave SW. It would then turn west under 32 Ave SW and continue until the park. At that point it would turn south west until the 34 Ave SW ROW where it would continue west. It would follow 34 Ave SW until 20 St SW where it would veer south. It would continue until between 41 and 42 Ave where it would head west under the park and Flanders Ave. It would continue, traveling under Crowchild Trail, until Richard Road which it would follow south west. It would then finally head west for the end of the line somewhere around Richard Road, Mount Royal Gate, and Mount Royal Circle.

LRV Purchase

Twenty LRVs, of the same type purchased for Phase 1, would be added to service the expanded line. They would again operate in five car groups. The addition of four new consists should be able to maintain, or slightly shorten, the existing headway times from Phase 1.

Stations

Mission-Cliff Bungalow Station

This would be a subway station. It would be located under Elbow Drive between 4 and 5 Streets.

Elbow Park Station

This would be a subway station. It would be located under the park between 32 Ave at 7 St SW and 34 Ave at 8 St SW.

14 St SW Station

This would be a subway station. It would be located under the 34 Ave and 14 St SW intersection. This would be a future transfer Station

Marda Loop Station

This would be a subway station. It would be located under 34 Ave just east of 20 St SW.

Flanders Station

This would be a subway station. It would be located under the 20 St SW and 41 Ave SW intersection.

Currie Station

This would be a subway station. It would be located under Richard Road just south of Flanders Ave.

Mount Royal University Station

This would be a subway station. It would be located just along the south side of Mount Royal Circle spanning either side of Mount Royal Gate. This would be a future transfer station.

Maintenance and Storage Facility Expansion

The facility built for the first phase of the line would be expanded to accommodate sixty LRVs. While the new total would only be forty five, future expansions or service improvements may require more capacity.


Phase 3: Expansions

The line could eventually be expanded west along Glenmore Trail and east along 17 Ave SE/Highway 1A. It could then service places like West Hills and Chestermere.
     
     
  #2263  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2011, 1:23 AM
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Originally Posted by You Need A Thneed View Post
Southland station construction begins tomorrow, according to the CT website. Ground level pedestrian crossing is closing tomorrow.
You know whats stupid and shows a complete lack of communication/planning???

In the summer of 09' a pedestrian walkway was built from the southside of Southland of to an office building on the otherside...no big deal right?

Well, the staircase and the ramp meet-up at the current grade crossing...hmmm kinda hard to explain so i'll draw a pic

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/47490480

Sorry for the amatuer photo, it was the only way I could explain this

Anyways, the staircase and the ramp meet-up at the current grade crossing which is only 14 meters from the platform. When the platform gets extended by 25m the stairs and the ramp are going to look so STUPID facing each other and connected by a sidewalk on the other side of the tracks.

I guess most of you won't think it's a big deal walking an extra 36m, but stuff like this bugs me
     
     
  #2264  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2011, 1:27 AM
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Oh yea, and the walkway severly restricts the ROW for a commuter train to Okotoks/High River on the east side of the tracks

And please don't get mad because I posted some regional stuff here, gotta do it while I'm on the same topic
     
     
  #2265  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2011, 1:53 AM
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Here's some interesting news. As has been mentioned before in this thread, Southland Station is the next in line to be upgraded and extended to four-car length. The interesting part is as follows from the Calgary Transit website:

Quote:
it will be necessary to close the station for a period of time to allow for the removal and replacement of a portion of the existing platform. Calgary Transit will communicate the dates for this station closure at a later date.
http://www.calgarytransit.com/html/southland_station_20110203.html

Looks like it will have to shut down for as long as it takes to remove part of the platform and replace it so it can be used for service again. Could be a couple or more weeks. We shall see.

More information at the link posted above. Construction starts tomorrow, February 3rd.
     
     
  #2266  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2011, 2:01 AM
DarkKeyo DarkKeyo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UofC.engineer View Post
You know whats stupid and shows a complete lack of communication/planning???

In the summer of 09' a pedestrian walkway was built from the southside of Southland of to an office building on the otherside...no big deal right?

Well, the staircase and the ramp meet-up at the current grade crossing...hmmm kinda hard to explain so i'll draw a pic

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/47490480

Sorry for the amatuer photo, it was the only way I could explain this

Anyways, the staircase and the ramp meet-up at the current grade crossing which is only 14 meters from the platform. When the platform gets extended by 25m the stairs and the ramp are going to look so STUPID facing each other and connected by a sidewalk on the other side of the tracks.

I guess most of you won't think it's a big deal walking an extra 36m, but stuff like this bugs me
Yeah, I've been wondering why they decided to locate the bottom of the ramp AND stairs in front of a crossing that (and they knew this would occur by 2014 when they built the bridge, didn't they?) wouldn't be there very soon.

On the topic of Southland station, they really need to replace those horrible metal/wood stairs up to Southland Dr. They matter less now that the bridge provides access to the area south of Southland Dr, but there is rather more to walk to north of it, because Anderson is so close to the south of it.

On the topic of twinning the heavy rail tracks beside the south line for a commuter line to Okotoks: There are just enough places on the route where there isn't room for a twinned track to make a mess of it (I've been bored, looking out the window, on the South line many times, and imagined it). Commuter rail is far enough in the future that the lifespan of a lot of those tight bridges may warrant upgrades. If there's demand for commuter rail.

On the topic of expanding to 4-car stations, the stations on the 201 S other than Southland all have some sort of TOD planned, so I wonder if that would justify upgrading more than half the station at those other stations. Those 30 year old stations are getting a bit aged, and a bit crowded, and have horrible access to the areas around them. Did they do Southland first because they thought of that too, I wonder... After all, Whitehorn, at 26 years old, is getting a pretty good upgrade. And the renderings from several years ago of the Heritage station redevelopment were pretty hopeful.
     
     
  #2267  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2011, 2:03 AM
DarkKeyo DarkKeyo is offline
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Originally Posted by frinkprof View Post
Here's some interesting news. As has been mentioned before in this thread, Southland Station is the next in line to be upgraded and extended to four-car length. The interesting part is as follows from the Calgary Transit website:



http://www.calgarytransit.com/html/southland_station_20110203.html

Looks like it will have to shut down for as long as it takes to remove part of the platform and replace it so it can be used for service again. Could be a couple or more weeks. We shall see.

More information at the link posted above. Construction starts tomorrow, February 3rd.
What interests me is that this seems to be a different approach than Whitehorn, where they spread the work and closures out over, what, 8-9 months and counting?
     
     
  #2268  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2011, 2:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frinkprof View Post
Here's some interesting news. As has been mentioned before in this thread, Southland Station is the next in line to be upgraded and extended to four-car length. The interesting part is as follows from the Calgary Transit website:



http://www.calgarytransit.com/html/southland_station_20110203.html

Looks like it will have to shut down for as long as it takes to remove part of the platform and replace it so it can be used for service again. Could be a couple or more weeks. We shall see.

More information at the link posted above. Construction starts tomorrow, February 3rd.
At Whitehorn, they replaced the entire platform in one long weekend. I imagine southland will be similar.
     
     
  #2269  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2011, 3:49 AM
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By derekmcb on flickr
     
     
  #2270  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2011, 4:20 AM
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I believe that is the exact spot depicted with the hobos and the burning barrel renderings,
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  #2271  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2011, 4:26 AM
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I believe that is the exact spot depicted with the hobos and the burning barrel renderings,
I do believe you are right. I remember the white cube building under the tracks...
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  #2272  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2011, 5:38 AM
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Originally Posted by kw5150 View Post
How about free downtown...........50 cents to stampede and Kensington.............and the regular rate everywhere beyond?

What they should really focus on is making it easier to pay for a ticket. Those slow machines that dont provide change are archaic and embarrassing.

I really love our transit system and the free fare zone (that I use everyday) is amazing. I would even pay a little just to use it. I actually wish that i could donate more to transit. Maybe I will buy a ticket just for the hell of it today!
Or even better...include transit fare in your ticket.

Add $3-4 to the price of a show ticket/Flames ticket which will go to CT directly...it's been used in Sydney Australia for events at the Olympic Stadium.
     
     
  #2273  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2011, 5:55 AM
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By derekmcb on flickr
Why is there duct tape on both ends of this piece?
     
     
  #2274  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2011, 6:07 AM
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Originally Posted by You Need A Thneed View Post
Whitehorn Station Pictures:

 

Fantastic! Thanks for posting.

The rack on the first picture, I'm assuming that will be for the new GPS PIDS?
     
     
  #2275  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2011, 6:14 AM
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Fantastic! Thanks for posting.

The rack on the first picture, I'm assuming that will be for the new GPS PIDS?
Yep, those are for the upcoming display signs (same as what are downtown). Initially they will be programmed to the schedule, later updated to the GPS/RFID based tracking once the system is implemented from what I've heard. Expect to see them start popping up at all the stations, there was a tender put out to install the frame (but not the signs yet) for all the other stations.
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  #2276  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2011, 6:19 AM
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Why is there duct tape on both ends of this piece?
Looks like they mortar the joints between sections so I think the tarp is there so that it cures properly.
     
     
  #2277  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2011, 6:51 AM
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Yep, those are for the upcoming display signs (same as what are downtown). Initially they will be programmed to the schedule, later updated to the GPS/RFID based tracking once the system is implemented from what I've heard. Expect to see them start popping up at all the stations, there was a tender put out to install the frame (but not the signs yet) for all the other stations.
Have they said when the GPS will be implemented? I've seen some cars with little white pieces that may or may not be beacons...Either way, having some sort of timing on a screen is a fantastic start.
     
     
  #2278  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2011, 8:50 AM
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Have they said when the GPS will be implemented?
January 6th, 1980.
     
     
  #2279  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2011, 8:54 AM
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That's a cool pic.

Is this section being installed differently than the previous? It looks to be a balanced cantilever at the moment. Weren't all the sections done before simply installed one after the other?

Seems like it is going to make moving the launching truss ahead a lot more interesting.
     
     
  #2280  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2011, 1:41 PM
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Why is there duct tape on both ends of this piece?
Are you serious? It looks like netting.
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