Broadway Subway - Millennium Line Extension to Arbutus | U/C

[WBC]

Originally Posted by Jebby

I don't see how that's the fault of the 3P process, though. It was built to the spec required by the government, wasn't it?

Exactly. Spec things properly and think things through. Canada Line was completed in 4 years and is massively complex project with both bored tunnel, cut and cover tunnel and the bridge for 19km.

Broadway extension is 6 KM and is going to take 6 years. The whole argument that Broadway extension is complex as it is built in the middle of the city does not wash when compared to Canada Line. The problem is that Broadway extension is a jobs program.

We keep this up and very few infrastructure projects will get build in the near future especially with the state of BC government finances. If we are competitively building ferries for BC ferries then why are we not doing the same for infrastructure projects? Why all the union requirements?

[mcj]

Originally Posted by Jebby

I don't see how that's the fault of the 3P process, though. It was built to the spec required by the government, wasn't it?

The private partners did the design. There wasn't really specs set out by the government at the time other than build a train from Richmond/Airport to downtown.

Straight from wikipedia:

The P3 process did not allow precise plans to be developed with public consultation, but limited discussion to certain abstract parameters, while leaving actual design details to the private partner.

This is a better project that was developed with the future in mind.

[Jebby]

Originally Posted by mcj

The private partners did the design. There wasn't really specs set out by the government at the time other than build a train from Richmond/Airport to downtown.

That isn't true. Yes, each bidder for the contract was given a lot of leeway on the final design, but there were very detailed requirements that the government put out, for example rider capacity, a 25-minute end-to-end time, and delivery date for the project.

You really think the government just put out a competition to "build any train as long as goes from DT to Richmond and the airport"?

[officedweller]

Requirements from the Canada Line RFP (some wee changed over time like the YVR requirements):

[Migrant_Coconut]

We literally almost ended up with a streetcar for Richmond, and were completely blindsided with cut and cover hidden in the fine print. It's clear that the province should've been a lot more specific with their requirements (which at least is what they're doing now).

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Politicians at the time thought it would be a white elephant. It has been a great success. Calling it underbuilt is with the benefit of hindsight.

People forget that the concept of "induced demand" applies to transit just as it does to roads and bridges.

There were a lot of people sounding the alarm on station sizes at the time. I really don't think we can let the government of the day off the hook for that one.

Early in life after striking out my own I bought a lot of cheap tools. I learned that what you're stuck with what you've bought for a lot longer than the memory of what it cost. I ended up having to replace most of them with better tools that have lasted and brought much more satisfaction over the long run. Chose wisely while you can.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

People forget that the concept of "induced demand" applies to transit just as it does to roads and bridges.

There were a lot of people sounding the alarm on station sizes at the time. I really don't think we can let the government of the day off the hook for that one.

Agree but the Province had to strongarm the Mayors who didn't want anything. Derek "I already got my skytrain lines" Corrigan was leading the charge against it.

Sure we can argue it was "underbuilt", but it still has expansion room and it's already been operating for 15+ years at great success. If we see overcrowding when it reaches its ultimate capacity, we can look at relief lines and complimentary routes. We are decades from that IMO.

[BaddieB]

If something has to be compromised for budget reasons, it is best for it to be station/car length size. It's better a crowded system that goes fast than a roomy system that is slow (it will be less crowded because the slower a service the less people will use it).

I'd much rather we build three underbuild $2B lines than build one overbuilt $6B line. Coverage is important too.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by BaddieB

I'd much rather we build three underbuild $2B lines than build one overbuilt $6B line. Coverage is important too.

Definitely.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Doubt we'll ever get another full-length SkyTrain for $2b; a tram, maybe, but we all know that one's just a very expensive RapidBus.

[surrey]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Doubt we'll ever get another full-length SkyTrain for $2b; a tram, maybe, but we all know that one's just a very expensive RapidBus.

This is why I think Skytrain to UBC will be the final skytrain extension. Take a look at the Langley extension..if the government new in advance it would cost 6 billion I doubt they would have approved it. Also Trudeau is gone...he spent money like a spoiled trust fund kid. Carney is more measured and conservative so I doubt they will fork out that much money again. Get ready to see a lot more BRT lines in the future.

[mcj]

Originally Posted by surrey

This is why I think Skytrain to UBC will be the final skytrain extension. Take a look at the Langley extension..if the government new in advance it would cost 6 billion I doubt they would have approved it. Also Trudeau is gone...he spent money like a spoiled trust fund kid. Carney is more measured and conservative so I doubt they will fork out that much money again. Get ready to see a lot more BRT lines in the future.

Hey sounds like you're unfamiliar with handling the difference between real and nominal values. For a more basic understanding, I'd also recommend you get familiar with the concept of "time value of money".

Just because dollar values were nominally lower in the past, and present dollar values are nominally higher, doesn't mean that our ability to build infrastructure projects is somehow compromised. BRT lines are cheaper, but eventually they too will nominally cost $6 Billion to build.

[Jebby]

Originally Posted by surrey

Also Trudeau is gone...he spent money like a spoiled trust fund kid. Carney is more measured and conservative so I doubt they will fork out that much money again.

I'm not so sure about that. Trudeau was incredibly fiscally irresponsible, but I see Carney as someone who understands the value of investment and will be willing to invest where it makes sense. Transit absolutely is one of those areas of infrastructure that will continue to be funded. Maybe the federal government will be more picky on projects, but I think the business case for SkyTrain is quite solid (UBCx being the main one).

[csbvan]

Public transit expansion, and better regional connectivity, is also likely to be seen by the government (as it should be) as part of the solution to the housing crisis.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by BaddieB

I'd much rather we build three underbuild $2B lines than build one overbuilt $6B line. Coverage is important too.

This is certainly true. But I can help lamenting that we got less value for the money than we should have. It would have cost far less than twice as much to build the line with twice the capacity, let alone build two lines.

[surrey]

Originally Posted by mcj

Hey sounds like you're unfamiliar with handling the difference between real and nominal values. For a more basic understanding, I'd also recommend you get familiar with the concept of "time value of money".

Just because dollar values were nominally lower in the past, and present dollar values are nominally higher, doesn't mean that our ability to build infrastructure projects is somehow compromised. BRT lines are cheaper, but eventually they too will nominally cost $6 Billion to build.

costs have ballooned in the last few years much higher than the general rate of inflation. There is a reason so many BRT lines are being proposed now. Dont get me wrong...I would love to see skytrain down king george in surrey....but it is clear that moving forward BRT is going to be the norm for the region.

[Migrant_Coconut]

BC had no problem agreeing to $6 billion up front back in 2019 (Broadway and Langley combined), and we certainly won't now.

We're certainly likely to get less SkyTrain per decade, but no SkyTrain at all seems pretty far-fetched... especially once the Broadway line opens and the revenue pours in.

[officedweller]

As long as the SkyTrain lines are successful with good ridership, they will continue to be built.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

We're certainly likely to get less SkyTrain per decade, but no SkyTrain at all seems pretty far-fetched... especially once the Broadway line opens and the revenue pours in.

i think this is the most accurate take. we have been very lucky with the SkyTrain expansions, literally a large project ever decade, since the 1980s.

• Expo-Line - 1980s
• Extension to Surrey - 1990s
• Millennium-Line - 2000s
• Canada-Line - 2000s
• Evergreen-Extension - 2010s
• Broadway Subway - 2020s
• Langley Extension - 2020s

the only next line i see that we should already have, is UBCx.

after that is done, i see a lull in building SkyTrain until probably 2050, because the next line should be the Purple-Line. and that will be expensive, complex, long, and connect a lot of communities, and existing lines. its not a "must have."

[GMD]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

i think this is the most accurate take. we have been very lucky with the SkyTrain expansions, literally a large project ever decade, since the 1980s.

• Expo-Line - 1980s
• Extension to Surrey - 1990s
• Millennium-Line - 2000s
• Canada-Line - 2000s
• Evergreen-Extension - 2010s
• Broadway Subway - 2020s
• Langley Extension - 2020s

the only next line i see that we should already have, is UBCx.

after that is done, i see a lull in building SkyTrain until probably 2050, because the next line should be the Purple-Line. and that will be expensive, complex, long, and connect a lot of communities, and existing lines. its not a "must have."

Yes, I could see this, it is tough to build to the North Shore. I am pushing for a line from Newton to Guildford. I don't think people really appreciate just how much ridership goes N-S through Surrey now, that route would get a ton of ridership and wouldn't be that hard to build (King George is super wide, and you don't need any bridges or tunnels, and Surrey in general is more supportive of construction than other areas). Of course, it could be set back by the BRT, or maybe huge ridership on the BRT will help it move forward. Time will tell.