Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion II

[madog222]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Note the reference to a new power substation under the Cordova Viaduct - mystery solved.
... but for what future expansion (aren't substations fairly locallized)?
Purple line under Hastings?

Ok, I’ve looked and looked, where do you see that referenced?

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by madog222

Ok, I’ve looked and looked, where do you see that referenced?

TransLink is currently in the process of seeking a contractor to study a new propulsion power substation for the Expo Line in downtown Vancouver, specifically how it could impact the Cordova 3 Viaduct near Waterfront Station. This new utility would provide SkyTrain with more power to prepare for expansion.

https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/mark-v-skytrain-testing-expo-millennium

[madog222]

Thanks

[logan5]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

i thought 72 second headways could be done?

I recall someone saying (awhile ago) that the limiting factor for Expo Line headways was the switchover at Waterfront - terminus station. When the Expo Line runs up Hastings, with a branch line to North Van, headway capabilities could be reduced significantly.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by madog222

System is capable of 75s headways but is constrained from terminus station turnarounds. Ignoring that constraint, operating at 75s would not be practical as it leaves no room for delays.

ahh okay, that makes sense.

Originally Posted by logan5

I recall someone saying (awhile ago) that the limiting factor for Expo Line headways was the switchover at Waterfront - terminus station. When the Expo Line runs up Hastings, with a branch line to North Van, headway capabilities could be reduced significantly.

hmm. is that because they have to leave the station going east, to double back going west? im not sure how that whole station works. i've taken the Expo-Line 2x in my life. but im a big fan of SkyTrain, great technology. i am glad we got it back in the 1980s, and stuck with it.

i still think every station renovation should upgrade platform lengths to handle 6 car trains. that way in 25yrs when its needed, we will be ready.

[jollyburger]

I wonder if they will run into issues with capacity at their entrance/exits even if they could extend all the platforms. Or increase headways even more.

I doubt the Hastings Line is happening in the next 20-30 years so it's someone else's problem how it interacts with Waterfront Station. Seems more likely it would use a different platform and go out to the West End

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

...is that because they have to leave the station going east, to double back going west?...

I can't remember the station configuration either as I haven't been in Waterfront Station for a while. I vaguely recall that the cars empty on one side of the platform, do the east-west switchover, then load up on the other side. If that's the case, would it not be more efficient to empty and load on the same side, so as to avoid having to stop again?

[madog222]

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

I can't remember the station configuration either as I haven't been in Waterfront Station for a while. I vaguely recall that the cars empty on one side of the platform, do the east-west switchover, then load up on the other side. If that's the case, would it not be more efficient to empty and load on the same side, so as to avoid having to stop again?

That would be slower as the switch before the station would need to be used which impedes the following train.

[Migrant_Coconut]

IIRC Waterfront still has an unused 2-way platform - might be easier to "just" change to that one instead of playing with archaic switches.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by jollyburger

I doubt the Hastings Line is happening in the next 20-30 years so it's someone else's problem how it interacts with Waterfront Station. Seems more likely it would use a different platform and go out to the West End

Exactly. The time it'll take to get the Millennium Line to UBC and then building the Purple Line and the Burnaby Mountain Gondola won't be measured in single digit years. That's not even counting any other lines they're pondering that might happen before Hastings

I also imagine any future Hastings line would connect with the West End instead of ending at Waterfront. Depending on where the population grows it might even cross over to the North Shore (which I can't see happening now).

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by Sheba

The time it'll take to get the Millennium Line to UBC and then building the Purple Line and the Burnaby Mountain Gondola won't be measured in single digit years.

I also imagine any future Hastings line would connect with the West End instead of ending at Waterfront.

the Hastings-Line would be the lowest priority of them all i think. this is how i see the priorities.

• #1 - Burnaby Mountain Gondola (2030???)
• #2 - UBCx (2035???)
• #3 - Purple-Line (2060???)
• #4 - UBCx; -> 41st; -> Metrotown (loop from UBCx - Purple-Line) (2080???)
• #5 - Hastings-Line (2100???)

so Hastings will probably be by the end of the century, at the earliest.

[logan5]

The Hastings line will be built within 30 years. I'd be willing to bet 100 Costco hot dogs on it. The CoV population is going to grow at a very high rate the ne t few decades, with basically every residential property eligible for higher density. We will have to build transit at a faster rate than we have in the last 30 years, which saw a lot of kms of Skytrain built.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

the Hastings-Line would be the lowest priority of them all i think. this is how i see the priorities.

• #1 - Burnaby Mountain Gondola (2030???)
• #2 - UBCx (2035???)
• #3 - Purple-Line (2060???)
• #4 - UBCx; -> 41st; -> Metrotown (loop from UBCx - Purple-Line) (2080???)
• #5 - Hastings-Line (2100???)

so Hastings will probably be by the end of the century, at the earliest.

I think you're putting too much time between the lines. I could potentially see this (with the first two being built at the same time):

• #1 - Burnaby Mountain Gondola (early 2030's)
• #1 - UBCx (early 2030's)
• #2 - Purple-Line (late 2030's)
• #3 - UBCx; -> 41st; -> Metrotown (loop from UBCx - Purple-Line) (early 2040's)
• #4 - Hastings-Line (2050)

...and that's just the Burrard Peninsula lines. Don't forget the Poco Extension off of Coquitlam Central and a King George Blvd Line (prob done in phases).


Edit: Now that I look at it, I wonder if the Purple Line would be done in a few phases, with Metrotown to Phibbs done first and then the Metrotown to Canada Line section while the North Shore has a conniption over Skytrain destroying their peaceful utopia.

[madog222]

A Hastings Line, as Skytrain, is complete fantasy currently and for decades to come. Transport 2050 shows Hastings as at grade (likely BRT).

Originally Posted by Sheba

I think you're putting too much time between the lines. I could potentially see this (with the first two being built at the same time):

• #1 - Burnaby Mountain Gondola (early 2030's)
• #1 - UBCx (early 2030's)
• #2 - Purple-Line (late 2030's)
• #3 - UBCx; -> 41st; -> Metrotown (loop from UBCx - Purple-Line) (early 2040's)

I agree with this timeline with the available information, though BMG could easily be done before 2030. We should hear more concrete plans about UBCx and the Purple Line over the next few years.

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by madog222

That would be slower as the switch before the station would need to be used which impedes the following train.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. What I meant was for the train to enter as per the current alignment, have passengers get off and on from the same platform, then switch tracks to the east as per usual, thus not having to stop at the platform a second time on the way back to Burrard.

[madog222]

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

Sorry, I wasn't clear. What I meant was for the train to enter as per the current alignment, have passengers get off and on from the same platform, then switch tracks to the east as per usual, thus not having to stop at the platform a second time on the way back to Burrard.

Sorry for misunderstanding. Though that still wouldn’t be faster than current operations where, during peak operation, after a train unloads it holds East of the station for the train ahead to complete loading.

What would allow for faster headways that approach the absolute minimum of 75s would be constructing an extension with a branch line off the Waterfront tail tracks so that there are two terminus stations at each end of the line.

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

Sorry, I wasn't clear. What I meant was for the train to enter as per the current alignment, have passengers get off and on from the same platform, then switch tracks to the east as per usual, thus not having to stop at the platform a second time on the way back to Burrard.

So you mean a Spanish solution is what Waterfront needs?

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by logan5

The Hastings line will be built within 30 years. I'd be willing to bet 100 Costco hot dogs on it.

i dont see it. i think thats too ambitious. though since the 1980s, we have gotten a major SkyTrain expansion every decade.

Originally Posted by Sheba

I think you're putting too much time between the lines. I could potentially see this (with the first two being built at the same time):

• #1 - Burnaby Mountain Gondola (early 2030's)
• #1 - UBCx (early 2030's)
• #2 - Purple-Line (late 2030's)
• #3 - UBCx; -> 41st; -> Metrotown (loop from UBCx - Purple-Line) (early 2040's)
• #4 - Hastings-Line (2050)

Don't forget the Poco Extension off of Coquitlam Central and a King George Blvd Line (prob done in phases).

that seems very ambitious. i just dont see that timeline happening. i could agree with the Burnaby Mountain Gondola + UBCx timeline, though. those should have been done already and i do think there is an appetite for them ASAP. but the Purple-Line would cost an insane amount of money, and i dont see it being built in the next 15yrs. they havent done any business case, no confirmed route planning, etc. the cost of it would have to be in the 10s of billions.

we just dont get the same $$$ that the east gets to throw at projects like they do.

Originally Posted by madog222

A Hastings Line, as Skytrain, is complete fantasy currently and for decades to come. Transport 2050 shows Hastings as at grade (likely BRT).

i agree with that. i just dont see a Hastings-Line high on the list. though with these new provincial rules, anything can happen i suppose. but i just dont see it.

Originally Posted by madog222

I agree with this timeline with the available information, though BMG could easily be done before 2030. We should hear more concrete plans about UBCx and the Purple Line over the next few years.

i would like that timeline, but im skeptical. (not BMG, UBCx) but the other projects are huge $$$ investments. i just dont see them coming before 2050. though i would love to be wrong, im a huge fan of SkyTrain and i think a strong, robust, comprehensive network is a must have.

i just wish we would get express tracks... i have always wanted express tracks.

interesting fact i found out was the the longest single-seat-ride on the NYC Subway is 52km. and ours, the Expo from Langley, would be 45km. and NYC has express tracks.

the UBCx -> 41st -> Metrotown + Purple-Line would be like 41km.

though i know we wont ever get express tracks. i still think 6 car train platforms should be done. but even the broadway subway is only 82m platforms.

[Stainer]

There's a very good chance that the Hastings line will be built at the same time as the Purple line. It's less than 5km, and ties BIRT all together. Plus it would open up more TOD in Vancouver, and provide a much needed second line out of Vancouver to Metrotown and beyond.

A large scale BIRT study is currently underway exploring options, including what the best ultimate solution is. Expected to be completed Q2 2026.

Even if BIRT costs 10-12B, the way it would change travel in the region for everyone is worth it. 50,000 cars off the bridges on day 1.

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by Stainer

There's a very good chance that the Hastings line will be built at the same time as the Purple line. It's less than 5km, and ties BIRT all together. Plus it would open up more TOD in Vancouver, and provide a much needed second line out of Vancouver to Metrotown and beyond.

A large scale BIRT study is currently underway exploring options, including what the best ultimate solution is. Expected to be completed Q2 2026.

Even if BIRT costs 10-12B, the way it would change travel in the region for everyone is worth it. 50,000 cars off the bridges on day 1.

Seems like it won't be included for that exact reason. The Purple line is close to 20KM & a new Second Narrows Bridge. Wouldn't the costs be up in the 15B range making it even more challenging to get funding?