Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Of course not. Never.

Note that even this can used against us, as evidence of our alleged insularity!

Courage, plus que trois ans à tenir dans le Canada !

[AverageMonctonEnjoyr]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Interestingly "ROC" is never used in French. At least I've never heard it. We say "le Canada anglophone".

PS: For some reason we never say "le Canada francophone". Don't ask me why. Languages!

PPS: Thinking about it, I think perhaps because French Canada is just basically Québec now, we just say "le Québec". Perhaps if Québec + New Brunswick + Manitoba + Saskatchewan were all entirely Francophone we would say "le Canada francophone" in French to refer to this large group.

Do you consider New Brunswick to be Canada anglophone ? Just curious

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by AverageMonctonEnjoyr

True though we only ask for self-determination and not isolation

I think a lot of Anglo-Saxons still have the "fog over the Channel, continent isolated" mentality.

[AverageMonctonEnjoyr]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

It's been renamed "Fédération Wallonie-Bruxelles", much to the annoyance of the Flemings, who have always claimed Brussels as a Flemish city. The Flemings do not recognize the new name, but the Francophones use it anyway. The renaming wasn't made because they didn't like the "française" in the name, but because, faced with Flemish nationalist demands over Brussels, they wanted to reassert that Brussels IS a Francophone city, part of the Francophone side of the country.

https://www.federation-wallonie-bruxelles.be/

Belgium is such a joke of a country. Bring back spanish rule !

[AverageMonctonEnjoyr]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I thought "ROC" was purely created by Acajack! I don't get out enough.

Most people (even some Canadians) think only of Quebec when they think of French Canadians, probably not being aware of Acadien populations (like in New Brunswick or Nova Scotia), and the communities in Ontario, Manitoba and Sask (and...?).

In my naivité, I've always thought of everybody as being Canadian, with varying cultures and languages, but such is the world of a Canadian anglo.

I feel we should all be able to associate with the term Canada since it was chosen as a name for the country by the French in their first encounters with the natives. And the Oh Canada was also written by a French Canadian. No one should be left out of the term Canada or Canadian.

[AverageMonctonEnjoyr]

Originally Posted by Loco101

No mention of our Indigenous peoples?

Sadly they only represent a tiny fraction of the population, but most french Canadians have native ancestry so their heritage is quite important. They are the real founders of this nation. But when Canada is mentioned only Anglos and Francos come to mind, never our natives.

[AverageMonctonEnjoyr]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Montreal will not be anglicized. With luck, the majority of grand children and great grandchildren of Montrealers will speak English and French, just like the majority of Montrealers do today.

If it is flooded with hundreds of thousands of English speaking Indians then it will happen. I’ve met thousands of great Indian guys in my life, and only one of them spoke French since he lived in Africa for a while.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by AverageMonctonEnjoyr

They are the real founders of this nation. But when Canada is mentioned only Anglos and Francos come to mind, never our natives.

Actually the French have several expressions referring to the native Indians of Canada, still used daily here, such as "c'est un micmac cette affaire...", "c'est le grand Manitou au bureau", "tu vas être le dernier des Mohicans", "enterrer la hache de guerre", fumer le calumet de la paix", etc.

Of course most French people don't realize this is due to France's colonization of Canada.

[AverageMonctonEnjoyr]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

And this is what Élisée Reclus wrote about the relationship between the Acadians and the Québécois back in 1890. Note that he refers to the Québécois as "Canadiens". He uses the term "Canadiens" to refer solely to the French Canadians of Québec. The Anglophone Canadians he called "Anglais" and "Américains". If he uses these terms that's because local people used them. Élisée Reclus was usually very well informed, and very faithful in his descriptions of countries.



And Moncton, since we have several Moncton residents here.

Ah the great college of Memramcook before the men in the pointy white hoods came to burn it !

[AverageMonctonEnjoyr]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Ummm… not really, unless you are concluding that the French being the first to launch a major occupation makes Quebec the original Canada. But then there is the uncomfortable idea that Quebec as the Quebec we know and love today didn’t exist until Confederation. Before that it was Lower Canada (which meant that there was an Upper Canada roughly encompassing what we now know as Ontario), then the two were combined into the province of Canada until Confederation. Knowing that you know all of this, likely more completely than I do, confuses me as to why you would take up such an argument (don’t worry, I’m confused easily!).

If it comes down to opinion, then for me, one could never consider pre-Confederation Canada to encompass “Canada”, and in fact I will go further to say that Canada wasn’t complete until 1949, so any movement to lessen post-1949 is in a sense destroying Canada. YMMV, and obviously it does.

Quebec is the primary exporter of "Canadian" culture. Without Quebec canada is just a linguistic,cultural, religious etc. extension to the United States ( and even the rest of the commonwealth). The name Canada itself like mentioned earlier was chosen by the French, the Oh Canada is French, maple syrup ( that was already consumed by the natives to some extent ) was first consumed by the French.I could go on.

[AverageMonctonEnjoyr]

Originally Posted by dleung

Trans/non-binary is a youth thing, and Quebec is also among the oldest provinces. Montreal's numbers are close to Toronto's so it's also an urban thing. Provinces that embrace diverse cultures more are also less likely to suppress gender diversity. So many factors, yet you keep bragging about trans numbers like some kind of vindication that Quebec beat wokeness by being nationalist lol



lol cringe

I would reply to this post, but my comment would probably be deleted by moderation 💀

[AverageMonctonEnjoyr]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Yeah, so that doesn't count. It's cheating!

Although I must say when I was at the university in the US I had a roommate who was a FAT Asian guy from Ottawa. He spent his evenings online watching porn.

He would always insist on how NOT COLD was Ottawa in winter. Yeah... right!!

This has to be be PEAK anecdotal evidence, gave me a good chuckle 🤭

[AverageMonctonEnjoyr]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Actually the French have several expressions referring to the native Indians of Canada, still used daily here, such as "c'est un micmac cette affaire...", "c'est le grand Manitou au bureau", "tu vas être le dernier des Mohicans", "enterrer la hache de guerre", fumer le calumet de la paix", etc.

Of course most French people don't realize this is due to France's colonization of Canada.

True I did read these in French comics growing up without paying attention

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Actually the French have several expressions referring to the native Indians of Canada, still used daily here, such as "c'est un micmac cette affaire...", "c'est le grand Manitou au bureau", "tu vas être le dernier des Mohicans", "enterrer la hache de guerre", fumer le calumet de la paix", etc.

Of course most French people don't realize this is due to France's colonization of Canada.

More likely due to James Fenimore Cooper, no?

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by AverageMonctonEnjoyr

I feel we should all be able to associate with the term Canada since it was chosen as a name for the country by the French in their first encounters with the natives. And the Oh Canada was also written by a French Canadian. No one should be left out of the term Canada or Canadian.

I agree.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by AverageMonctonEnjoyr

Quebec is the primary exporter of "Canadian" culture. Without Quebec canada is just a linguistic,cultural, religious etc. extension to the United States ( and even the rest of the commonwealth). The name Canada itself like mentioned earlier was chosen by the French, the Oh Canada is French, maple syrup ( that was already consumed by the natives to some extent ) was first consumed by the French.I could go on.

I can't agree, really, as Canada was made up of mostly English and French, who rejected (or escaped) the US either directly or passively after the American Revolution. America diverged to become its own culture as did Canada. To say that this is entirely to be attributed to Quebec is a false statement, IMHO. In fact for awhile the Maritimes were a very rich, highly influential part of Canada until that influence shifted to the regions now occupied as Ontario and Quebec, so perhaps we could say that the Maritimes were the primary exporter of Canadian culture?

IMHO, the main reason for the large American influence in Canadian culture was the flow of American pop culture coming across the border, through music at first, and then American cable TV (starting around the early 1970s). My parents' and grandparents' generations were not francophones (though apparently I do have French somewhere in my ancestry), but they clearly grew up in an entirely different culture than 'the American Experience'.

As far as linguistics go, at least on the east coast, we grew up spelling in the British way (i.e. colour vs color, etc.), and pronunciations (and even sentence structure at times) can be vastly different. However, those of us raised on American TV likely lost some of that uniqueness over the years. C'est la vie, but one also can't expect culture and language to remain stagnant with each emerging generation. Internet culture (social media, etc.) has spread Americanism throughout the world, and unless you cut that off completely, it's going to continue, until the American Empire fades and some other culture becomes the largest media influencer. By then, perhaps it will be such a mishmash of worldwide cultures that it may no longer be distinguishable as being specifically from one region or another.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

I'm not a historian of hockey, but if Wikipedia is to be believed, the first ice hockey game was organized by James Creighton (born in NS) a member of the Victoria Skating Club, featuring athletes from McGill university using sticks manufactured in Nova Scotia. The game borrowed heavily from informal pickup games that Creighton played in his Nova Scotia youth.
Doesn't sound like very de souche origins to me.

If Quebec leaves Canada as a French-speaking nation state of Quebecois, they have about as much claim to inventing hockey as the Russian citizens of Kaliningrad have to claiming Kant.

For personal reasons, I like to think of the birthplace of hockey to be on Lake Banook, in Dartmouth, NS, which has been suggested by some. Obviously nobody can conclude as all of the claims tend to be anecdotal, or have some evidence that suggests a possibility, but not enough to be conclusive. I played hockey on Lake Banook as a kid, so obviously it must be the correct choice!

Also, it's fairly well known that the modern hockey skate has its origins with Starr Manufacturing, which was just down the road from Lake Banook, so I'm going with that.

Starr Manufacturing skates

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

In fact for awhile the Maritimes were a very rich, highly influential part of Canada until that influence shifted to the regions now occupied as Ontario and Quebec, so perhaps we could say that the Maritimes were the primary exporter of Canadian culture?

In the early 19th century, the Maritimes had only barely half the population of Québec. And the capital of colonial Canada was in Québec, not in the Maritimes. They were always some outlying territories.

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

My parents' and grandparents' generations were not francophones (though apparently I do have French somewhere in my ancestry), but they clearly grew up in an entirely different culture than 'the American Experience'.

Did they drive on the left side of the road? Did they say "how do you do?" to greet each other? Did they eat roastbeef with mint jelly on Sunday and drink tea with a cloud of milk at 5 o'clock every day?

They were already pretty Americanized even back then.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

In the early 19th century, the Maritimes had only barely half the population of Québec. And the capital of colonial Canada was in Québec, not in the Maritimes. They were always some outlying territories.


Did they drive on the left side of the road? Did they say "how do you do?" to greet each other? Did they eat roastbeef with mint jelly on Sunday and drink tea with a cloud of milk at 5 o'clock every day?

They were already pretty Americanized even back then.

Well, they didn't drive on the left, they had gravy with the roast (mint jelly is for lamb) and tea is delightful at any time of day. All still part of my life, in Ontario. I also say "how do you do" when introduced to someone.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

In the early 19th century, the Maritimes had only barely half the population of Québec. And the capital of colonial Canada was in Québec, not in the Maritimes. They were always some outlying territories.

Your lack of knowledge about the region is showing through. But that's okay as it would put you in the same category as the average Ontarian.

By the mid 19th Century, the east coast was a hotbed of international shipping and trade, etc. and thus the area had become quite prosperous. Population is not a singular metric by which to measure prosperity. However, by the early 20th century, the expansion of rail tipped the economic scales back in favour of Montreal and Toronto, so Halifax had a period of decline, which was worsened by the Halifax Explosion in 1917. It is the opinion of some that this held back Halifax's development by about 20 years as it recovered from that event.

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Did they drive on the left side of the road?

So by that metric, France has also been Americanized, as you drive on the right side of the road as well. Columbo drove a Peugeot on the right side of the road, and nobody is more American than Columbo, so therefore America=France...

In case you are interested, and weren't just trying to make stuff up to antagonize me, Nova Scotia drove on the left side of the road until April 15, 1923:

1923 April 15 2:00am

Highway Driving Rule Changes Sides

At 2:00am on Sunday, 15 April 1923, the "rule of the road" changed, in Nova Scotia. After this day, all traffic moves on the right-hand side of the road. Previously, automobiles, streetcars, horses, bicyclists, and all other vehicles and travellers adhered to the left-hand side of the road. Since 1 December 1922 there had been a problem for automobile drivers who crossed the border between Nova Scotia and New Brunswick — on that date New Brunswick had switched to driving on the right-hand side of the road, while Nova Scotia remained with the left-side rule. For four and a half months, drivers crossing the border in both directions had to remember to change to the other side of the road, and even with the relatively low traffic levels of that day there were some near-misses resulting from this conflict.

Source

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Did they say "how do you do?" to greet each other? Did they eat roastbeef with mint jelly on Sunday and drink tea with a cloud of milk at 5 o'clock every day?

They were already pretty Americanized even back then.

You're a peach!

I don't know how they greeted one another, as I wasn't around then. I do know they didn't say "howdy" or some other American stereotype. They very well may have said "how do you do", though, as I have heard people use that, but not in awhile. I've also heard "bonjour", though, so maybe we were French?

Tea has always been popular in the Martimes. I've even attended "high tea" before, but it's not so common.

I am enjoying your sense of humour, but you really should hold back a little on instructing me on how things were in the place where I grew up. It's kind of an odd thing to do, at least in my part of Canada, as it makes one look a bit silly, eh old chap?