Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

We say "les Francophones". For example: "L'extrême-droite est très puissante en Flandre, mais elle n'a jamais réussi à s'imposer chez les Francophones." That's typically what a French newspaper would write.

A French MP some 10 years ago said that France would "défendre les Francophones" (in the near disintegration of Belgium that they had 10 yeas ago).

They have this overarching government-like structure called the Communauté française de Belgique that runs things in French for Wallonia and Brussels, though I don't know that people use the name that much.

It's weird to me that they use the name of another nationality (French) in there, though I suppose it's a reference to the language.

We used to have "français" and "française" as community and institutional adjectives used a lot here as well, but it's largely disappeared and been replaced with francophone, québécois, acadien, fransaskois, etc.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

"dans le ROC" is sometimes used in Quebec in French. "ROC" is pronounced the English way.

We also often say "dans le reste du Canada", and "le Québec et le Canada" is common too. The latter one irks some people but even federalists often slip up and use it.

Hate it, hate it, hate it! Even the PM and other ministers do it nowadays.

[mousquet]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

If you said "le ROC" to me, I would be thinking about chess. But then I'm a former chess player.

I can't beat the advanced-level bot of Chess.com, that gets on my nerves.
I need more training.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

They have this overarching government-like structure called the Communauté française de Belgique that runs things in French for Wallonia and Brussels, though I don't know that people use the name that much.

It's weird to me that they use the name of another nationality (French) in there, though I suppose it's a reference to the language.

It's been renamed "Fédération Wallonie-Bruxelles", much to the annoyance of the Flemings, who have always claimed Brussels as a Flemish city. The Flemings do not recognize the new name, but the Francophones use it anyway. The renaming wasn't made because they didn't like the "française" in the name, but because, faced with Flemish nationalist demands over Brussels, they wanted to reassert that Brussels IS a Francophone city, part of the Francophone side of the country.

https://www.federation-wallonie-bruxelles.be/

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

It's been renamed "Fédération Wallonie-Bruxelles", much to the annoyance of the Flemings, who have always claimed Brussels as a Flemish city. The Flemings do not recognize the new name, but the Francophones use it anyway.

https://www.federation-wallonie-bruxelles.be/

I've at times wondered if something like that wouldn't have been a good set-up for Canada.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I've at times wondered if something like that wouldn't have been a good set-up for Canada.

Fédération Québec-Acadie ?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Fédération Québec-Acadie ?

There are about twice as many Franco-Ontariens as there are Acadiens. Though you hear way more about Acadiens. Franco-Ontariens have a low profile.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Interestingly "ROC" is never used in French. At least I've never heard it. We say "le Canada anglophone".

PS: For some reason we never say "le Canada francophone". Don't ask me why. Languages!

PPS: Thinking about it, I think perhaps because French Canada is just basically Québec now, we just say "le Québec". Perhaps if Québec + New Brunswick + Manitoba + Saskatchewan were all entirely Francophone we would say "le Canada francophone" in French to refer to this large group.

Originally Posted by Acajack

"dans le ROC" is sometimes used in Quebec in French. "ROC" is pronounced the English way.

We also often say "dans le reste du Canada", and "le Québec et le Canada" is common too. The latter one irks some people but even federalists often slip up and use it.

I thought "ROC" was purely created by Acajack! I don't get out enough.

Most people (even some Canadians) think only of Quebec when they think of French Canadians, probably not being aware of Acadien populations (like in New Brunswick or Nova Scotia), and the communities in Ontario, Manitoba and Sask (and...?).

In my naivité, I've always thought of everybody as being Canadian, with varying cultures and languages, but such is the world of a Canadian anglo.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I thought "ROC" was purely created by Acajack! I don't get out enough.

Most people (even some Canadians) think only of Quebec when they think of French Canadians, probably not being aware of Acadien populations (like in New Brunswick or Nova Scotia), and the communities in Ontario, Manitoba and Sask (and...?).

In my naivité, I've always thought of everybody as being Canadian, with varying cultures and languages, but such is the world of a Canadian anglo.

Such is also the world of Montreal, which is why it's so often the square peg being hammered into a round hole.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

In my naivité, I've always thought of everybody as being Canadian, with varying cultures and languages, but such is the world of a Canadian anglo.

You've missed 540 pages of thread then (and 250 years of history). You're probably saying it to provoke, but it would be extremely bizarre for any non-recently-arrived Canadian not to know that the French speakers in Canada (except if they are recent immigrants) are not at all the same as other non-English-speaking groups. There's even a question in your census, asking about knowledge of the "official languages", which are specifically listed as English and French: https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2021/ref/dict/az/definition-eng.cfm?ID=pop055

So it's quite obvious to all that Canada is based around two national populations, Anglophones and Francophones. All the rest (Italians, Jews, Ukrainians, Indians, you name it) are just "pièces rapportées" (with no negative connotation in the term).

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

You've missed 540 pages of thread then (and 250 years of history). You're probably saying it to provoke, but it would be extremely bizarre for any non-recently-arrived Canadian not to know that the French speakers in Canada (except if they are recent immigrants) are not at all the same as other non-English-speaking groups. There's even a question in your census, asking about knowledge of the "official languages", which are specifically listed as English and French: https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2021/ref/dict/az/definition-eng.cfm?ID=pop055

So it's quite obvious to all that Canada is based around two national populations, Anglophones and Francophones. All the rest (Italians, Jews, Ukrainians, Indians, you name it) are just "pièces rapportées" (with no negative connotation in the term).

Linguistic groups, not national populations.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Such is also the world of Montreal, which is why it's so often the square peg being hammered into a round hole.

In Anglo-Montrealer enclaves, anyway.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Linguistic groups, not national populations.

Punjabi speakers, Spanish speakers, Cantonese speakers are linguistic groups inhabiting Canada (as immigrants). They are not the national populations of Canada. Francophones and Anglophones are the two national populations of the country, just as Francophones, Germanophones, and Italophones (and the much smaller Romanches) are the national populations of Switzerland (and not, say, the many Portuguese or Albanian speakers inhabitanting Switzerland).

No German-speaker in Switzerland would ever say "we're all Swiss with just different languages, be it German, French, Portuguese, Albanian, etc". That would basically deny the existence of the separate Francophone and Italophone Swiss as constituent parts of the nation who founded Switzerland, and equate them to mere immigrants in their own country!

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

In Anglo-Montrealer enclaves, anyway.

Far more allophones and ethnic minorities in Montreal that just those in Anglo Montrealer enclaves.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Far more allophones and ethnic minorities in Montreal that just those in Anglo Montrealer enclaves.

It's complicated. But French Canadians are still the largest group in the city by a longshot. Plus quite a few allophones think like French Canadians.

I mean I know you guys want to take over the city because it's more attractive than Toronto, but don't count your chickens before they hatch.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It's complicated. But French Canadians are still the largest group in the city by a longshot. Plus quite a few allophones think like French Canadians.

I mean I know you guys want to take over the city because it's more attractive than Toronto, but don't count your chickens before they hatch.

Some just want Montreal to be all that can be. Sadly the powers stymie it.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Some just want Montreal to be all that can be. Sadly the powers stymie it.

A huge Brampton with better poutine and a mountain in the middle?

[Acajack]

My last post was admittedly provocative but the days where Montreal would draw Canadians from across the country are long past and changing it to make it more like the ROC in the 2020s would involve the population replacement of French Canadians by people from abroad and for those people to primarily adopt English.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

the days where Montreal would draw Canadians from across the country are long past

Did Montréal ever draw Canadians from across the country (in large numbers I mean)? When rural flight took place after the 1930s, I don't think the Anglophone farmers from Ontario, the Prairies or the Maritimes migrated to Montréal. It seems to me the Anglophone population in Montréal was essentially made up of the Anglophone immigrants (and non-Anglophone immigrants who integrated in the Anglophone community) who arrived by transatlantic ships to Canada in Montréal and didn't move further west as most did. (plus of course the Anglophones from the rest of Québec who relocated to Montréal when their communities became swamped with pesky "French Canadians")

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

You've missed 540 pages of thread then (and 250 years of history). You're probably saying it to provoke, but it would be extremely bizarre for any non-recently-arrived Canadian not to know that the French speakers in Canada (except if they are recent immigrants) are not at all the same as other non-English-speaking groups. There's even a question in your census, asking about knowledge of the "official languages", which are specifically listed as English and French: https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2021/ref/dict/az/definition-eng.cfm?ID=pop055

So it's quite obvious to all that Canada is based around two national populations, Anglophones and Francophones. All the rest (Italians, Jews, Ukrainians, Indians, you name it) are just "pièces rapportées" (with no negative connotation in the term).

No. Not trying to provoke, and I'm not saying those words that you are trying to credit me with.

I'm saying that the war between England and France in relation to Canada was over by the 1800s. Canadian Confederation was in 1867, which included what is now known as Quebec. We are one country today... Canadians. 540 pages of an internet forum does not change that. We do, however, need more acceptance, understanding and respect among AOC, and hopefully we can get there. You may not understand that most of us want this... have you learned nothing from your studies of Canada?