Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Those stats are over 10 years old. The anglophone community has begun growing again in sheer numbers and relative % of the population as of the 2021 census, on all respects: mother tongue, language spoken at home, first official language spoken by newcomers. Even English unilingualism is up now for the first time in 50 or 60 years.

All of these are also increasing relative to the equivalent measures for French.

To drive the point home:

Originally Posted by lio45

As per your misleading stats, Late 1960s St-Léonard doesn't have an English Language Invasion problem, everyone's mother tongue is either French or Italian

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by lio45

These stats (Anglo as mother tongue) are a total strawman. The correct stats is French language use, and then the rest defaults to the North American (And Global) Steamroller. And French use keeps declining too.

The "Anglo as mother tongue" stats don't tell us anything about what % of the immigrants integrate into the French-speaking Québécois, and what % of the immigrants instead become English-speaking North Americans while still living within the borders of Quebec. As per your misleading stats, Late 1960s St-Léonard doesn't have an English Language Invasion problem, everyone's mother tongue is either French or Italian

It is not a strawman. I am countering NB's "worrisome" statistics with other statistics.

As a former physicist, I thought you would appreciate statistics. I guess when they don't fit your narrative, they are deemed to be "misleading".

My statistics are not misleading. They are from Statistics Canada.

Take it up with globalization and the incredible pulling power of the United States. You yourself have become highly Americanized, to the point that you often use (in CE) the term "we" when describing Americans and things happening in the USA.

Originally Posted by lio45

Yeah but the real distinction that matters isn't whether someone is Montreal-born or not, it's whether they're Québécois or Anglo.

Four legs good, two legs better!

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

I am countering NB's "worrisome" statistics

What "worrisome statistics"? I'm simply challenging this idea that somehow Montréal attracted lots and lots of Anglophones from the rest of Canada. So far I haven't seen any figure that really show that. The Anglophone population of Montréal grew mostly due to international immigration (+ relocation of Anglophones from rural Québec to Montréal). Show me the hundreds of thousands of Anglophones relocating from the Prairies, Ontario or British Columbia to Montréal...

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

As I pointed out, "mother tongue" is pretty irrelevant actually. It basically measures how much our Old Stock Anglos reproduce (they likely have the same ~1.0 TFR as everyone else in the First World) plus how much immigration we get from the British Isles and the ROC and the USA (edit: while also measuring how much of our Old Stock Anglos leave for greener pastures; I forgot the "minus" column!)

Agreed but even so, English mother tongue is also increasing in Quebec in both actual numbers and % share of the population.

So all dashboard lights are green for the anglo community of Quebec!

In light of this, the dancing banana seems appropriate:

[lio45]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

It is not a strawman. I am countering NB's "worrisome" statistics with other statistics.

As a former physicist, I thought you would appreciate statistics. I guess when they don't fit your narrative, they are deemed to be "misleading".

My statistics are not misleading. They are from Statistics Canada.

I have no "narrative". I'm all about reality and the facts. Your stats are misleading because they imply that, since English speakers are going down, French speakers must be going up (filling the rest of the way to 100%), when in reality, your stats are perfectly compatible with French speakers ALSO going down while the category "Mother Tongue Neither French Nor English" is the only one growing (which would not be surprising in the least, as all our growth is from immigration), and your stats don't tell us anything about whether these people adopt English or French (which is THE thing that matters for Quebec's longer-term survival).

I also think I explained very clearly why "English as mother tongue" stats are irrelevant if what we're trying to measure is the progression of English in Quebec over the years. The English Language Invasion Threat isn't due to West Island WASPs breeding like rabbits (which is what your stats measure), it's because immigrants think English will open more doors for them and their children than French would.

And I never said your statistics weren't from Statistics Canada; I said they were misleading, which they are.

Take it up with globalization and the incredible pulling power of the United States.

This is exactly why Quebec needs to protect itself if it doesn't want to be absorbed by that black hole. It's been explained countless times, in this thread and others

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Agreed but even so, English mother tongue is also increasing in Quebec in both actual numbers and % share of the population.

So all dashboard lights are green for the anglo community of Quebec!

In light of this, the dancing banana seems appropriate:

Anyway, as I explained (clearly, hopefully), even if that ONE light was yellow/red (as it was at the time of MolsonEx's stats), it would still mean English is gaining ground in Quebec at the expense of French, as the lights that matter on the dashboard for them would still be green.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

I have gone over why I personally don't want this, which requires taking a historical/moral perspective and weighing things against other things.

But it requires that because it is otherwise clearly in my interest.

The real question to me is what is lost to Quebec, Canada, North America and the world if Montreal gets anglicized, VERSUS what is lost to these same entities if the anglophone community in Montreal dwindles to perhaps a shadow of its former self.

My position is perfect in its logical consistency because I would be 100% in support of communities like Odanak and Maliotenam if they wanted to severely restrict French there in order to protect and revitalize their Indigenous languages. Not only would I not care. I'd think it was a good idea.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The real question to me is what is lost to Quebec, Canada, North America and the world if Montreal gets anglicized, VERSUS what is lost to these same entities if the anglophone community in Montreal dwindles to perhaps a shadow of its former self.

If Montreal is anglicized, French-speaking North America is decapitated. If the Anglo community dwindles, we lose one of those interesting cosmopolitan circumstances where a city's character exists in the dialogue between two or more communities.

For Canada, that dialogue is between its founding groups, so bifurcation in Montreal points to a larger separation. For the world, of all languages to ever share a city, English and French have to be among the titans, so it's interesting.

[kool maudit]

But these situations are not permanent. There have been some great moments in places that are moving from one thing to another thing, moments that are better and deeper and more interesting than the dominance of either thing. These moments can be longer than single human lifetimes, too. But in the end they're unstable isotopes.

[kwoldtimer]

Montreal will not be anglicized. With luck, the majority of grand children and great grandchildren of Montrealers will speak English and French, just like the majority of Montrealers do today.

[kool maudit]

As long at it is French, Montreal will have English at a level on par with but different from Copenhagen or Amsterdam. On par because you will have institutions like McGill and Concordia that places like that lack, but different because you will lack the English-language workplaces and such that are increasingly prominent in Northern Europe due to Bill 101 and cultural factors (e.g. Danish people don't really care if their waiter on Nyhavn is a unilingual Australian).

But that's very different from what it was in 1970 or 1930.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

If Montreal is anglicized, French-speaking North America is decapitated. If the Anglo community dwindles, we lose one of those interesting cosmopolitan circumstances where a city's character exists in the dialogue between two or more communities.

For Canada, that dialogue is between its founding groups, so bifurcation in Montreal points to a larger separation. For the world, of all languages to ever share a city, English and French have to be among the titans, so it's interesting.

Originally Posted by kool maudit

But these situations are not permanent. There have been some great moments in places that are moving from one thing to another thing, moments that are better and deeper and more interesting than the dominance of either thing. These moments can be longer than single human lifetimes, too. But in the end they're unstable isotopes.

And those tensions probably did play a part in Leonard Cohen and Mordecai Richler emerging in that specific era of Montreal and not somewhere else.

I don't dispute that something would be lost if Montreal became more francophone and way less anglophone, but I think that even with aggressive frenchification an English language presence would still persist at a fairly significant level in the city no matter what.

As I think you said, it won't be 1930 or 1970 Montreal, but it won't be 1996 Quebec City either.

Worth noting that for all the talk about Bill 101 destroying English and bilingualism in Montreal, it's actually led to a fairly stable bilingual situation in the city in 2024.

[Zeej]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

As long at it is French, Montreal will have English at a level on par with but different from Copenhagen or Amsterdam. On par because you will have institutions like McGill and Concordia that places like that lack, but different because you will lack the English-language workplaces and such that are increasingly prominent in Northern Europe due to Bill 101 and cultural factors (e.g. Danish people don't really care if their waiter on Nyhavn is a unilingual Australian).

But that's very different from what it was in 1970 or 1930.

Keeping in mind that Bill 101, now reformed under Bill 96, only applies to workplaces over 25 people, I think you might be surprised by the degree of larger workplaces that operate functionally in English or at minimum use English heavily, despite language laws.

I work for a Montreal based company with a branch office in Toronto (who knew that was even a thing?). Our clients are based across Canada. Any guess as to the language of correspondance? Hell, I've been in meetings with the City of Montreal where their PM has switched the meeting to English.

It's not a thing to brag about, but it is very much a thing.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Zeej

Keeping in mind that Bill 101, now reformed under Bill 96, only applies to workplaces over 25 people, I think you might be surprised by the degree of larger workplaces that operate functionally in English, despite language laws.

It's not a thing to brag about, but it is very much a thing.

Another trend favourable to English in Quebec that is also on the rise, verifiable via official statistics.

[Zeej]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Another trend favourable to English in Quebec that is also on the rise, verifiable via official statistics.

Yes - the OQLF has been tracking language spoken most often at work and the use of English part or full time outpaces even the growth of the anglophone population here.

The other phenomenon is the rise of the use of English in French public and private schools, outside of the classroom. This is probably even more alarming, as its becoming a sort of social currency to speak it (referencing an article from La Presse).

Honestly, I'm not sure if these things can be legislated away.

Until recently, I was of the opinion that only a sovereign Quebec could reverse these trends. Now I'm no longer certain.

[kool maudit]

There is no road to a 1930s-style Anglicized Montreal under current legal and cultural conditions.

Were I an evil Canadian mastermind, though, here is a blueprint for the "Red and White Revolution of 2037" that restores such a scenario.

1. The Quebec independence movement picks up steam under a charismatic leader.

2. There are rumblings in the Anglo press about ethnic nationalism. Outlandish fringe figures are given generous coverage (even funded?). The Americans are briefed.

3. Demonstrations in the lead-up to the third referendum feature some unpleasant scenes along known faultlines (native areas of Quebec, some anti-semitism for old time's sake)

4. Canada is guarded about the terms of the referendum and inconsistent in its communications with Quebec leaders.

5. The referendum is held and it is a victory for Oui. Canada says it is illegitimate for whatever reason. Native disenfranchisement. Voter fraud. Whatever.

6. The massive outpouring of anger that follows culminates in a large demonstration in central Montreal. An atrocity occurs. One with an obvious narrative.

7. The US and Canadian press are massively inflamed. Unidirectional. The Americans have been prepped through diplomatic channels and with much emphasis on natural resources and issues at the New York border. Hitler is in Quebec.

8. Continued unrest in Montreal is contained by a military presence with assistance from the National Guards of neighboring states. The Quebec government is isolated in Quebec City. This circumstance builds to the point that a provisional government is established in Montreal and the surrounding area to protect the human rights of minorities and natives and preserve the normal functioning of the economy.

9. The provisional government is flatly liberal and states that it gives no preference to any language, cultural group, religion or anything else.

10. There is continued unrest in Montreal for an indefinite period.

11. Royal Bank answers the phone in English.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by Zeej

Keeping in mind that Bill 101, now reformed under Bill 96, only applies to workplaces over 25 people, I think you might be surprised by the degree of larger workplaces that operate functionally in English or at minimum use English heavily, despite language laws.

I work for a Montreal based company with a branch office in Toronto (who knew that was even a thing?). Our clients are based across Canada. Any guess as to the language of correspondance? Hell, I've been in meetings with the City of Montreal where their PM has switched the meeting to English.

It's not a thing to brag about, but it is very much a thing.

I would be surprised. My sense of the place is obviously dated and only becoming more so.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by Acajack

And those tensions probably did play a part in Leonard Cohen and Mordecai Richler emerging in that specific era of Montreal and not somewhere else.

I don't dispute that something would be lost if Montreal became more francophone and way less anglophone, but I think that even with aggressive frenchification an English language presence would still persist at a fairly significant level in the city no matter what.

As I think you said, it won't be 1930 or 1970 Montreal, but it won't be 1996 Quebec City either.

Worth noting that for all the talk about Bill 101 destroying English and bilingualism in Montreal, it's actually led to a fairly stable bilingual situation in the city in 2024.

Yes, French is the dominant language of choice for a free and democratic Montreal, and it preserves enough English from location alone that things remain interesting. English dominance doesn't work with the current demographics in anything but an outlandish, extreme scenario (as described above).

[Zeej]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

There is no road to a 1930s-style Anglicized Montreal under current legal and cultural conditions.

Were I an evil Canadian mastermind, though, here is a blueprint for the "Red and White Revolution of 2037" that restores such a scenario.

11. Royal Bank answers the phone in English.

Interesting scenario.

To be clear, no one is saying the city will become anglicized.

It's worth noting that when you approach a Banque Royale teller Downtown, they greet you with a 'Bonjour-Hi.'

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by Zeej

Interesting scenario.

To be clear, no one is saying the city will become anglicized.

It's worth noting that when you approach a Banque Royale teller Downtown, they greet you with a 'Bonjour-Hi.'

It is interesting to consider that part of Montreal's evolution might involve a degree of "Scandification".

I always thought the history and the specific languages at play prevented this.

But it sounds as though that might not be the case.

For what it's worth, although Stockholm lacks legal linguistic protections and the like, and English is everywhere to no great uproar... you never forget that this is a Swedish-speaking country, and that real life happens in Swedish.