Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[New Brisavoine]

What about this? https://www.assnat.qc.ca/fr/index.html

They certainly seem to consider themselves a nation. I thought even the Canadian prime ministers recognized their nationhood.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Punjabi speakers, Spanish speakers, Cantonese speakers are linguistic groups inhabiting Canada (as immigrants). They are not the national populations of Canada. Francophones and Anglophones are the two national populations of the country, just as Francophones, Germanophones, and Italophones (and the much smaller Romanches) are the national populations of Switzerland (and not, say, the many Portuguese or Albanian speakers inhabitanting Switzerland).

No German-speaker in Switzerland would ever say "we're all Swiss with just different languages, be it German, French, Portuguese, Albanian, etc". That would basically deny the existence of the separate Francophone and Italophone Swiss as constituent parts of the nation who founded Switzerland, and equate them to mere immigrants in their own country!

No mention of our Indigenous peoples?

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

What about this? https://www.assnat.qc.ca/fr/index.html

They certainly seem to consider themselves a nation. I thought even the Canadian prime ministers recognized their nationhood.

Canada is a federation. There are different types of nations within Canada.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Loco101

There are different types of nations within Canada.

So, exactly what I said then.

[New Brisavoine]

For those still not worried about the neighbor less than an hour drive from Montréal: https://medium.com/@corbephilippe/des-micro-trottoirs-au-pentagone-5d21b3853f7f

And the first thing the bastard talks about with a French journalist is 1940 of course. It's 'freedom fries' all over again!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Did Montréal ever draw Canadians from across the country (in large numbers I mean)? When rural flight took place after the 1930s, I don't think the Anglophone farmers from Ontario, the Prairies or the Maritimes migrated to Montréal. It seems to me the Anglophone population in Montréal was essentially made up of the Anglophone immigrants (and non-Anglophone immigrants who integrated in the Anglophone community) who arrived by transatlantic ships to Canada in Montréal and didn't move further west as most did. (plus of course the Anglophones from the rest of Québec who relocated to Montréal when their communities became swamped with pesky "French Canadians")

I think quite a few of them did.

I remember seeing stats from maybe 75 years ago and there were as many or more Newfoundlanders in Montreal as there were in Toronto. This would be unthinkable in this day and age.

Stephen Leacock went to Montreal.

Norman Bethune went to Montreal.

The guys from April Wine went to Montreal.

The Shriners set up their hospital in Montreal.

[New Brisavoine]

Newfoundlandlers were few and far between though. There were barely 360,000 people living in Newfoundland in 1950, as opposed to 10 million living in Canada outside Québec.

[New Brisavoine]

A quick look at Statcan shows that 42,935 people with English as a mother tongue (including those with both English and French as a mother tongue) migrated to Québec from the rest of Canada between 1966 and 1971 (earliest period available). 39,525 did so between 1971 and 1976, 25,260 between 1976 and 1981, and then the figure stabilized between 25,000 and 30,000 every 5 years after 1981.

Even if all had gone to Montréal (which they didn't, as many probably went just outside the river from Ottawa), that wouldn't strike me as some super high pulling power of Montréal in the ROC, at the most 8,600 per year between 1966 and 1971 (so perhaps 6,000 for Montréal per year?)...

PS: Ontario in comparison attracted 185,740 native English speakers from the ROC between 1966 and 1971, and this figure doesn't even include the tens of thousands of people from the rest of Ontario that Toronto attracted due to rural flight. British Columbia attracted 163,280 native English speakers from the ROC between 1966 and 1971. Alberta 108,815. So no real particular pulling power of Montréal among Anglophone Canadians from the ROC there.

[MolsonExport]

• English-language population in Quebec
  Year Mother tongue[6]
  1951 558,256 (13.8%)
  1961 697,402 (13.3%)
  1971 788,830 (13.1%)
  1981 693,600 (10.9%)
  1991 626,200 (9.2%)
  1996 631,038 (9.0%)
  2001 591,365 (8.3%)
  2006 607,165 (8.2%)
  2011 599,230 (7.6%)

Relax.

The English language population has been dropping for decades, and proportionately is half of what it once was.

That dastardly Anglo fifth column.

But yeah, "Québécois", especially with those two acute accents (letters that don't even exist in the English language), I'd limit that to Francophones.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I mean I know you guys want to take over the city because it's more attractive than Toronto

I have gone over why I personally don't want this, which requires taking a historical/moral perspective and weighing things against other things.

But it requires that because it is otherwise clearly in my interest.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

A quick look at Statcan shows that 42,935 people with English as a mother tongue (including those with both English and French as a mother tongue) migrated to Québec from the rest of Canada between 1966 and 1971 (earliest period available). 39,525 did so between 1971 and 1976, 25,260 between 1976 and 1981, and then the figure stabilized between 25,000 and 30,000 every 5 years after 1981.

Even if all had gone to Montréal (which they didn't, as many probably went just outside the river from Ottawa), that wouldn't strike me as some super high pulling power of Montréal in the ROC, at the most 8,600 per year between 1966 and 1971 (so perhaps 6,000 for Montréal per year?)...

PS: Ontario in comparison attracted 185,740 native English speakers from the ROC between 1966 and 1971, and this figure doesn't even include the tens of thousands of people from the rest of Ontario that Toronto attracted due to rural flight. British Columbia attracted 163,280 native English speakers from the ROC between 1966 and 1971. Alberta 108,815. So no real particular pulling power of Montréal among Anglophone Canadians from the ROC there.

I was thinking mostly about the period way before 1966. But it's true that the attractivity of Montreal for English-speaking people (whether from inside what is today Canada or outside it), relative to Toronto, has declined steadily from the period where it was effectively the country's one big city, 150+ years ago.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

For those still not worried about the neighbor less than an hour drive from Montréal: https://medium.com/@corbephilippe/des-micro-trottoirs-au-pentagone-5d21b3853f7f

And the first thing the bastard talks about with a French journalist is 1940 of course. It's 'freedom fries' all over again!

I live 30 minutes from the border. Canada's third city (Vancouver) is pretty much on the border. So are Windsor and Niagara. Proximity is irrelevant, safety would be exactly the same if Montreal were a several hours' drive from the border; it's not the 1700s anymore.

[kool maudit]

Montreal was really only the unquestioned metropolis from Confederation to the First World War. After that, Toronto was in very hot pursuit. I would even say that the furious city-building period of the 1920s was more muted than it might have been in Montreal because of this.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I was thinking mostly about the period way before 1966. But it's true that the attractivity of Montreal for English-speaking people (whether from inside what is today Canada or outside it), relative to Toronto, has declined steadily from the period where it was effectively the country's one big city, 150+ years ago.

Yep, New Bris' stats are all from the Quiet Revolution and Later, so too late for what you're talking about.

Montreal had decent pulling power as the NYC of Canada for about ~150 years. That era ended when the Canadiens started appropriating the city.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

Montreal was really only the unquestioned metropolis from Confederation to the First World War. After that, Toronto was in very hot pursuit. I would even say that the furious city-building period of the 1920s was more muted than it might have been in Montreal because of this.

I see we disagree a bit on dates, but we agree on the basic phenomenon

(Honestly, I don't see how anyone could disagree; it's not up for debate.)

[lio45]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

• English-language population in Quebec
  Year Mother tongue[6]
  1951 558,256 (13.8%)
  1961 697,402 (13.3%)
  1971 788,830 (13.1%)
  1981 693,600 (10.9%)
  1991 626,200 (9.2%)
  1996 631,038 (9.0%)
  2001 591,365 (8.3%)
  2006 607,165 (8.2%)
  2011 599,230 (7.6%)

Relax.

The English language population has been dropping for decades, and proportionately is half of what it once was.

That dastardly Anglo fifth column.

These stats (Anglo as mother tongue) are a total strawman. The correct stats is French language use, and then the rest defaults to the North American (And Global) Steamroller. And French use keeps declining too.

The "Anglo as mother tongue" stats don't tell us anything about what % of the immigrants integrate into the French-speaking Québécois, and what % of the immigrants instead become English-speaking North Americans while still living within the borders of Quebec. As per your misleading stats, Late 1960s St-Léonard doesn't have an English Language Invasion problem, everyone's mother tongue is either French or Italian

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

• English-language population in Quebec
  Year Mother tongue[6]
  1951 558,256 (13.8%)
  1961 697,402 (13.3%)
  1971 788,830 (13.1%)
  1981 693,600 (10.9%)
  1991 626,200 (9.2%)
  1996 631,038 (9.0%)
  2001 591,365 (8.3%)
  2006 607,165 (8.2%)
  2011 599,230 (7.6%)

Relax.

The English language population has been dropping for decades, and proportionately is half of what it once was.

That dastardly Anglo fifth column.

Those stats are over 10 years old. The anglophone community has begun growing again in sheer numbers and relative % of the population as of the 2021 census, on all respects: mother tongue, language spoken at home, first official language spoken by newcomers. Even English unilingualism is up now for the first time in 50 or 60 years.

All of these are also increasing relative to the equivalent measures for French.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

I have gone over why I personally don't want this, which requires taking a historical/moral perspective and weighing things against other things.

But it requires that because it is otherwise clearly in my interest.

Yeah, your posts about this always hit the nail on the head. Montreal as the NYC of Canada would be a different city. I'm not even sure it would be in your interest, actually. You like Montreal as Montreal!

A total Québécois Genocide in the longer term (i.e. Quebec becoming a totally normal province) would actually be extremely profitable for me, as Montreal's real estate values would end up somewhere between Toronto's and Vancouver's

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I was thinking mostly about the period way before 1966. But it's true that the attractivity of Montreal for English-speaking people (whether from inside what is today Canada or outside it), relative to Toronto, has declined steadily from the period where it was effectively the country's one big city, 150+ years ago.

Back then (150 years ago) big cities on the North American East Coast (which I consider Montréal to be) did not attract people from the interior. It was "move West young man". These cities grew due to international immigration arriving in their ports.

Rural flight only really started after the 1920s, and if Montréal had been during this period (say 1930s to 1950s) the big Canadian magnet for Anglophone Canadians, it would still have shown in the 1966-1971 period. One would have expected a figure for Québec at least as high as for British Columbia.

Besides, proof is in the pudding as they say. If Montréal had been THE metropolis of the Anglophone Canadians, it wouldn't have been passed by Toronto already by 1941 (951,000 people living in Toronto vs 903,000 living in Montréal).

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Those stats are over 10 years old. The anglophone community has begun growing again in sheer numbers and relative % of the population as of the 2021 census, on all respects: mother tongue, language spoken at home, first official language spoken by newcomers. Even English unilingualism is up now for the first time in 50 or 60 years.

All of these are also increasing relative to the equivalent measures for French.

As I pointed out, "mother tongue" is pretty irrelevant actually. It basically measures how much our Old Stock Anglos reproduce (they likely have the same ~1.0 TFR as everyone else in the First World) plus how much immigration we get from the British Isles and the ROC and the USA (edit: while also measuring how much of our Old Stock Anglos leave for greener pastures; I forgot the "minus" column!)