Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Lots of people from Quebec (or even francophones from other parts of Canada) get interviewed in French in France.

That doesn't mean they speak Euro-French. In any event, it's effectively the same language, in the same way that British English and the (North) American English that Canadians speak is the same language.

If I'm getting interviewed in France and want to make sure I'm fully understood, then I'll deliberately speak with a less Québécois, more international accent.

(i.e. if having to choose between these two outcomes for the average viewer: 1) "what an exotic accent, but I didn't get half of what he said" and 2) "what this guy says makes sense! and I can fully understand him", I'll go with #2......)


I can position my speech anywhere on the spectrum between Full Québécois and Perfect International French. (Not sure I can still do a perfect provençal accent, been too long.)

Most people who have traveled a bit (you, for example) can pull that off too, I'm sure.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

How can anyone NOT set the minimum bar for someone with his upbringing to be, at his age, perfectly fluent in both languages?

For example, I don't know much about the current King of Belgium, but I am assuming that if he's at least of average intelligence / not too inbred, then he can speak both French and Dutch to near perfection. That's a pretty basic job skill for the position: there's few things I would find more important in the daily schedule of young future Belgian royalty than making sure they're fluent in both languages.

Similarly, any Trudeau Dynasty heir that can't speak both languages to perfection is a pretty big fail.

I was just going to say something similar.

JT gets more grief for his French because as a Trudeau, as Liberal leader, as someone who always claims to be every bit as Québécois as anyone else and to speak for us, he is in a way the embodiment of the Canadian bilingualism myth and everything it comprises, like how French is so awesomely dynamic in all of Canada these days, and its future is solidly ensured by all of the awesome stuff Canada does to nurture and defend it.

When you're the obvious standard-bearer for something as touchy and foundational as that, then people are going to hold you to a higher standard than some random dude from Nova Scotia or Manitoba who wants to be PM and has spent hours and hours perfecting his second language as prep for that job.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

If I'm getting interviewed in France and want to make sure I'm fully understood, then I'll deliberately speak with a less Québécois, more international accent.

(i.e. if having to choose between these two outcomes for the average viewer: 1) "what an exotic accent, but I didn't get half of what he said" and 2) "what this guy says makes sense! and I can fully understand him", I'll go with #2......)


I can position my speech anywhere on the spectrum between Full Québécois and Perfect International French. (Not sure I can still do a perfect provençal accent, been too long.)

Most people who have traveled a bit (you, for example) can pull that off too, I'm sure.

I most definitely can, though everyday upper middle class Québécois French has moved a bit closer to standard international French, and Euro-French have become more accustomed to our speech, so I find the adjustments that need to made aren't as profound as they used to be.

Of course, I am talking about making myself understood perfectly, and not about "passing" for someone who is from francophone Europe.

I can generally pull that off too, but then we'd more in the realm of theatrics as opposed to linguistics.

[janbe74]

Originally Posted by Acajack

They never said it was bad, just that it sounded pompous and as if he was elevating himself over the common people.

Not sure he spoke 10 languages. Never heard that he was a polyglot. And I read a bunch of stuff about him, including biographies.

Quebec people would tear Pierre Trudeau's French. To the point where even Jean Chretien told Pierre Trudeau he is not truly from Quebec.

He is fluent in ten languages. Don't judge a book by it's cover.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by janbe74

Quebec people would tear Pierre Trudeau's French. To the point where even Jean Chretien told Pierre Trudeau he is not truly from Quebec.

He is fluent in ten languages. Don't judge a book by it's cover.

Well, "was" because he died many years ago. Did you know?

That said, I'd really like to hear more about this because this definitely is not common knowledge about PET.

[Acajack]

Pretty sure it was René Lévesque who quipped that in Pierre Elliot Trudeau, it seemed like it was the Elliot that got the better of him. Not Jean Chrétien.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Pretty sure it was René Lévesque who quipped that in Pierre Elliot Trudeau, it seemed like it was the Elliot that got the better of him. Not Jean Chrétien.

Sounds like a pretty racist statement, something like Levesque or (by jove) Parizeau would say.

In Quebec your linguistic purity goes hand in hand with how pur laine you are. This is why Quebecers look down on Acadians, especially those with the temerity to speak Chiac.

Quebecers are very much like ancient Romans, a society where your status is determined by the quality of your rhetoric, discourse and oratory (the superiority of you linguistic skills).

[lio45]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Quebecers are very much like ancient Romans, a society where your status is determined by the quality of your discourse and oratory.

What's wrong with that? I didn't know you were a fan of low-quality discourse.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Black Star

Hey....Quebec...Please for the Love Of GOD and all that is Holy.....Leave Canada....NOW. No one needs YOU!!! Just Go....You are that fat Chick that
has NO money or stroke. You are a welfare State Beat it. Alberta is NOT your Daddy anymore. We will do are own thing now

Obviously you know nothing about Québec and about much of Canada.

Your comment is very anti-Canadian.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by casper

The vast majority of Canadians don't have an issue with Quebec.

Alberta is a unique place, where the local political leaders need to distract attention away from their shortcomings by fixating on Quebec.

Well said!

[janbe74]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Pretty sure it was René Lévesque who quipped that in Pierre Elliot Trudeau, it seemed like it was the Elliot that got the better of him. Not Jean Chrétien.

It was Jean Chretien. Pierre Elliot Trudeau was actually born in Quebec.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by lio45

What's wrong with that? I didn't know you were a fan of low-quality discourse.

Oh, I appreciate verbal sparring as much as anyone else (which is why I hang around SSP).

I'm not so much a fan of excessive snootiness or condescension however (which I think may exist in Quebec more so than elsewhere in His Majesty King Charles III Canadian realm. But, then again, the Gallic nose is certainly long enough that I'm sure it makes it quite irresistible to refrain from staring down it's impressive length on the remainder of (especially anglophone) Canadian society.

Just kidding BTW. Have to poke the bear every so often, wot wot.........

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Oh, I appreciate verbal sparring as much as anyone else (which is why I hang around SSP).

I'm not so much a fan of excessive snootiness or condescension however (which I think may exist in Quebec more so than elsewhere in His Majesty King Charles III Canadian realm. But, then again, the Gallic nose is certainly long enough that I'm sure it makes it quite irresistible to refrain from staring down it's impressive length on the remainder of (especially anglophone) Canadian society.

Just kidding BTW. Have to poke the bear every so often, wot wot.........

In between a couple of gin-tonics by the poolside this afternoon?

[lio45]

If you want to make Ancient Rome style oratory illegal in Canada, vote for Poilievre, he's actually promising some sort of Plain Grade-6 Language Act to make sure everything can always be understood by even the dumbest hick

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I was being intentionally hyperbolic, and this is obviously not the situation on the ground in Quebec right now, but, the intent of LeGeault's Bill 96 is clearly this.

If you move to Quebec, you are expected to learn French within only six months, and if you can't, well, then God bless you. You're on your own. You can either deal with it or leave (in other words, fuck off).

No other province in the federation has this approach for immigrant non English speakers, no matter where they come from.

It's not actually like that though. The six month thing is in regards to immigrants and isn't totally unfair. As someone who works in government, I can tell you that Quebec does a lot more to serve people in English than most other provinces do to serve in French with the exception of NB, a few parts of ON.

If you move to Quebec, you should be expected to learn French if you are there to work and use many services. But Quebec overall is pretty good to Anglophones and immigrants. You can get service in English in a number of regions and people will often speak to you in English at all sorts of places. But you can't go there expecting service in English for everything. If you want to belong in Quebec society then speaking French is a must.

I totally agree that immigrants should be learning French to immigrate and live in Quebec. It's the language of business and society there. There has to be pressure and incentives. I feel that the federal and Quebec governments need to do more things to actually have potential immigrants learn French before they move to Quebec and even to other parts of Canada.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Loco101

It's not actually like that though. The six month thing is in regards to immigrants and isn't totally unfair. As someone who works in government, I can tell you that Quebec does a lot more to serve people in English than most other provinces do to serve in French with the exception of NB, a few parts of ON.

If you move to Quebec, you should be expected to learn French if you are there to work and use many services. But Quebec overall is pretty good to Anglophones and immigrants. You can get service in English in a number of regions and people will often speak to you in English at all sorts of places. But you can't go there expecting service in English for everything. If you want to belong in Quebec society then speaking French is a must.

I totally agree that immigrants should be learning French to immigrate and live in Quebec. It's the language of business and society there. There has to be pressure and incentives. I feel that the federal and Quebec governments need to do more things to actually have potential immigrants learn French before they move to Quebec and even to other parts of Canada.

Thanks for being honest and telling the truth.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by lio45

Except when it's time to get a pipeline to tidewater for eastbound exportation

good one!

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yeah, I was always bemused by its inclusion in that song.

I think that it's because historically (maybe 75-80 years ago) at least in the Quebec context it ranked higher in the Quebec context than it does today.

I remember seeing old lists of the biggest cities in Quebec and Valleyfield was often on it, whereas it's way down the list today and other cities have grown much larger.

St-Jean-sur-Richelieu if I recall also loomed larger in the generic Quebec consciousness in the past.

Another factor might be that both of them have been swallowed up by the image people have of places in the wider Greater Montreal area, and as such have lost a bit of their independent identity.

My family has done some research on our ancestors. We discovered that the ones who came from Scotland settled in Valleyfield. We didn't know this until fairly recently and thought that they had settled in both ON and NS. What was kind of funny is that a family friend of ours who was a francophone Quebecer and moved to Timmins was from Valleyfield and his ancestors settled in Valleyfield around the same time as ours did.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

In between a couple of gin-tonics by the poolside this afternoon?

Alas no. I am shortly going to make a 75 km drive to a hot air balloon fiesta in Sussex NB and have to remain sober to refrain from any untoward altercations with the local gendarmerie along the way.

Should be a good evening - it's clear, calm and warm here in God's country, and there will be a harvest moon rising this evening.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by lio45

The two 1-series provincial highways that intersect in (downtown) Sherbrooke are King Street (Route 112) (named after William IV) and Queen Victoria Blvd (Route 143)

That's not particularly rare or noteworthy. Quebec grew a lot between 1760 and the Quiet Revolution; that growth often has a British flavor, for obvious reasons.

If you look at the older streets and especially wealthier areas of almost anywhere in Quebec, you will see street names in English and many British/Irish names. And this includes places that are 95-99% francophone. You'll see rue Birch for example instead of rue des bouleaux.

Just go on Google Maps and look at the old Noranda neighbourhood of Rouyn-Noranda or the Bourlamaque neighbourhood of Val-d'Or as examples. Val-d'Or even has street names that are TOTALLY in English which were kept for historical purposes I believe. Two of the ones that come to mind are Perry Drive and Sigma Road. They are not signed as Promenade Perry or Chemin Sigma or in bilingual format. They are signed in English! Val-d'Or also has a number of signs like in Timmins where it just has the street name but doesn't show rue, avenue, boulevard, etc..