Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[casper]

Originally Posted by Black Star

Hey....Quebec...Please for the Love Of GOD and all that is Holy.....Leave Canada....NOW. No one needs YOU!!! Just Go....You are that fat Chick that
has NO money or stroke. You are a welfare State Beat it. Alberta is NOT your Daddy anymore. We will do are own thing now

The vast majority of Canadians don't have an issue with Quebec.

Alberta is a unique place, where the local political leaders need to distract attention away from their shortcomings by fixating on Quebec.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

And it's especially oppressive to have to learn French when one has wilfully moved to Québec from another part of Canada or another country!

Not all Acadians speak English (especially in the Madawaska region or la Peninsule). Are you therefore advocating that they should all have to learn to speak English in order to live in New Brunswick which is majority (70/30) English speaking??

No, of course not. The Acadians have been there for hundreds of years. They have a right to speak their language.

Well then, how about the anglophone minority in Quebec then? Some of them have roots extending back 250 years in la Belle Province. Should they all be forced to speak French as well??? Are they also not (almost) a founding people, or are they still considered "oppressors" because of la conquete.. Is this is what this about? Punishment for an event that occurred 10 generations ago????

If a special exemption is made for native Quebec anglophones (which partially exists), then how do you determine (when you try to renew your drivers licence) if an anglophone desiring service in English was born in Quebec or was born in another province. Will the new standard be that if you demand service in English, that you will have to show your birth certificate to determine if you are eligible???

I remind you that while it is a struggle to get service in French in most anglophone provinces (it is quite easy in NB), things are better now than at almost anytime in the past. If it is possible, an accommodation will be made. If you go to the DMV in Charlottetown, the person you approach at the wicket might not be able to speak French, but you will be pleasantly asked to wait while they find someone who can. It will be a pain in the ass (definitely), but there is a reasonable chance you might be able to get served in your language.

Meanwhile, in the modern LeGeaullt Quebec, the officious clerk at the wicket will now stare at you with disapproval if you say "hello" (rather than bonjour), and the second that you attempt do deal with them in English, you will be reminded (coldly) that French is the only official language of the province, and, if you are an immigrant from another country (or even another province), that service will be unavailable to you, and you should leave the office immediately (or be escorted off the premises).

There is a whole different tone in discourse here............

The key to coexistence is reasonableness. An anglophone moving to Quebec should reasonably expect to have to learn at least a little French. The francophone bureaucracy in Quebec should in turn realize that it unreasonable to absolutely deny services in English if there is no other option.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

No trip to Canada is complete without a visit to Salaberry-de-Valleyfield!

Yeah, I was always bemused by its inclusion in that song.

I think that it's because historically (maybe 75-80 years ago) at least in the Quebec context it ranked higher in the Quebec context than it does today.

I remember seeing old lists of the biggest cities in Quebec and Valleyfield was often on it, whereas it's way down the list today and other cities have grown much larger.

St-Jean-sur-Richelieu if I recall also loomed larger in the generic Quebec consciousness in the past.

Another factor might be that both of them have been swallowed up by the image people have of places in the wider Greater Montreal area, and as such have lost a bit of their independent identity.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Not all Acadians speak English (especially in the Madawaska region or la Peninsule). Are you therefore advocating that they should all have to learn to speak English in order to live in New Brunswick which is majority (70/30) English speaking??

No, of course not. The Acadians have been there for hundreds of years. They have a right to speak their language.

Well then, how about the anglophone minority in Quebec then? Some of them have roots extending back 250 years in la Belle Province. Should they all be forced to speak French as well??? Are they also not (almost) a founding people, or are they still considered "oppressors" because of la conquete.. Is this is what this about? Punishment for an event that occurred 10 generations ago????

If a special exemption is made for native Quebec anglophones (which partially exists), then how do you determine (when you try to renew your drivers licence) if an anglophone desiring service in English was born in Quebec or was born in another province. Will the new standard be that if you demand service in English, that you will have to show your birth certificate to determine if you are eligible???

I remind you that while it is a struggle to get service in French in most anglophone provinces (it is quite easy in NB), things are better now than at almost anytime in the past. If it is possible, an accommodation will be made. If you go to the DMV in Charlottetown, the person you approach at the wicket might not be able to speak French, but you will be pleasantly asked to wait while they find someone who can. It will be a pain in the ass (definitely), but there is a reasonable chance you might be able to get served in your language.

Meanwhile, in the modern LeGeaullt Quebec, the officious clerk at the wicket will now stare at you with disapproval if you say "hello" (rather than bonjour), and the second that you attempt do deal with them in English, you will be reminded (coldly) that French is the only official language of the province, and, if you are an immigrant from another country (or even another province), that service will be unavailable to you, and you should leave the office immediately (or be escorted off the premises).

There is a whole different tone in discourse here............

The key to coexistence is reasonableness. An anglophone moving to Quebec should reasonably expect to have to learn at least a little French. The francophone bureaucracy in Quebec should in turn realize that it unreasonable to absolutely deny services in English if there is no other option.

The bolded is definitely not true, though as the number of people who do not follow through with the underlined continues to increase, we will likely move more in that direction.

C'est la vie.

[kwoldtimer]

I was in Valleyfield a few years ago to visit the graves of my paternal great-grandparents in the Protestant cemetery there. I was quite surprised at how run down the place seemed.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I was in Valleyfield a few years ago to visit the graves of my paternal great-grandparents in the Protestant cemetery there. I was quite surprised at how run down the place seemed.

It's surprisingly rust belt-y, for Quebec at least.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The bolded is definitely not true, though as the number of people who do not follow through with the underlined continues to increase, we will likely move more in that direction.

I was being intentionally hyperbolic, and this is obviously not the situation on the ground in Quebec right now, but, the intent of LeGeault's Bill 96 is clearly this.

If you move to Quebec, you are expected to learn French within only six months, and if you can't, well, then God bless you. You're on your own. You can either deal with it or leave (in other words, fuck off).

No other province in the federation has this approach for immigrant non English speakers, no matter where they come from.

[Laceoflight]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I was in Valleyfield a few years ago to visit the graves of my paternal great-grandparents in the Protestant cemetery there. I was quite surprised at how run down the place seemed.

Valleyfield used to thrive with the textile industry. The city has never fully recovered from the delocalization of its main industry to Asia mostly (from the end of the 70s to the 90s). Since 5-10 years, it is slowly transforming into a "troisième couronne" suburb of Montreal. That doesn't help to revitalize the former factory-worker neighbourhoods.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I was being intentionally hyperbolic, and this is obviously not the situation on the ground in Quebec right now, but, the intent of LeGeault's Bill 96 is clearly this.

If you move to Quebec, you are expected to learn French within only six months, and if you can't, well, then God bless you. You're on your own. You can either deal with it or leave (in other words, fuck off).

No other province in the federation has this approach for immigrant non English speakers, no matter where they come from.

Note that I did not deny the possibility that things might move further in that direction.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Haha! I didn't know that one!

When I saw Charles Trenet, I immediately thought it would be this song!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ho4OT2s-dFw

Une famille des plus charmantes
Trois enfants maman papa
Partit un beau jour de Nantes
Pour visiter le Canada
Fixant leur itinéraire
Après maintes réflexions
Ils choisirent pas ordinaire
Ces moyens de locomotion
C'est ainsi qu'avant de partir
Ils chantaient pour s'divertir
Nous irons à Toronto en auto
Nous irons à Montréal à cheval
Nous traverserons Québec à pied sec
Nous irons à Ottawa en oua oua
Nous irons à Valleyfield sur un fil
Nous irons à Trois Rivières en litière
Passant par Chicoutimi endormis
Nous irons au lac Saint-Jean en nageant
Voilà, voilà
Un beau voyage, un beau voyage
Voilà, voilà
Un beau voyage au Canada
Oui mais parfois c'est étrange
On ne fait pas toujours ce qu'on veut
Bien souvent le hasard change
Nos projets les plus heureux
Nos amis furent c'est pas de chance
Victimes d'une distraction
Du chef du bureau de l'agence
Des moyens d'locomotion
Et à cause d'un employé
Qui s'était trompé de billets
Ils allèrent à Toronto en nageant
Ils allèrent à Montréal endormis
Ils se rendirent à Québec en litière
Ils allèrent à Ottawa sur un fil
Ils allèrent à Valleyfield à pied sec
Ils allèrent à Trois Rivières en oua oua
Passant par Chicoutimi à cheval
Ils plongèrent dans le lac Saint-Jean en auto
Voilà, voilà
Un beau voyage, un beau voyage
Voilà, voilà
Un beau voyage au Canada
Depuis ce temps-là, messieurs dames
Les voyageurs ont compris
Pour éviter bien des drames
Il faut à n'importe quel prix
Contrôler dans les agences
Les billets d'locomotion
Si vous partez en vacances
La plus simple des précautions
C'est de chanter mon petit air
Mon petit air itinéraire
Nous irons à Toronto en auto
Nous irons à Montréal à cheval
Nous traverserons Québec à pied sec
Nous irons à Ottawa en oua oua
Nous irons à Valleyfield sur un fil
Nous irons à Trois Rivières en litière
Passant par Chicoutimi endormis
Nous irons au lac Saint-Jean en nageant
Voilà, voilà
Un beau voyage, un beau voyage
Voilà, voilà
Un beau voyage au Canada

He made 3 songs about Canada: the one I posted, the one you mentioned, and this one (about Québec City) which is lovely and very jazzy (and quite poetic, as always with Charles Trénet, "au loin le Saint Laurent roule ses flots d'argent"...).

• Video Link

Charles Trénet was very popular in Québec back then. He spent some time there, after the war, while Europe was rebuilding its ruins. At first he was in NYC, but he was victim of abuse by US authorities due to his homosexuality, so he went to Canada which was more tolerant, and he quite enjoyed Québec. His songs also appealed more to French Canadians than to Americans.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

He made 3 songs about Canada: the one I posted, the one you mentioned, and this one (about Québec City) which is lovely and very jazzy (and quite poetic, as always with Charles Trénet, "au loin le Saint Laurent roule ses flots d'argent"...).

• Video Link

Charles Trénet was very popular in Québec back then. He spent some time there, after the war, while Europe was rebuilding its ruins. At first he was in NYC, but he was victim of abuse by US authorities due to his homosexuality, so he went to Canada which was more tolerant, and he quite enjoyed Québec. His songs also appealed more to French Canadians than to Americans.

After being cut off from France and therefore relatively invisible for nearly two centuries, I think that he may have been the first French showbiz celebrity to start paying attention to us in the middle of the 20th century.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This is all a bit puzzling to me as I think that in spite of all the bogeymen about "sleepwalking to separation", the historical evidence points to accommodating Quebec's distinctiveness and aspirations as being beneficial overall to the unity of the country.

Yeah, that's my feeling too.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I remember seeing old lists of the biggest cities in Quebec and Valleyfield was often on it, whereas it's way down the list today and other cities have grown much larger.

Talking of which, I see that the main street in Valleyfield is called "Rue Victoria". Loyal and faithful subjects.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

After being cut off from France and therefore relatively invisible for nearly two centuries, I think that he may have been the first French showbiz celebrity to start paying attention to us in the middle of the 20th century.

There was also the French movie star Jean Gabin before the war (here in the movie Maria Chapdelaine filmed in Québec in the summer of 1934, in the Saguenay area):

• Video Link

Iconic couple with Marlene Dietrich during the war (although they chose to settle in sunny Southern California and not in snowy Québec).

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Laceoflight

Valleyfield used to thrive with the textile industry. The city has never fully recovered from the delocalization of its main industry to Asia mostly (from the end of the 70s to the 90s). Since 5-10 years, it is slowly transforming into a "troisième couronne" suburb of Montreal. That doesn't help to revitalize the former factory-worker neighbourhoods.

What’s weird is that, even though Valleyfield is so close to Montreal, it feels off the beaten path, being on an island in the St Lawrence. When you’re driving down A-20, it doesn’t feel like there’s a mid-sized manufacturing town just across the river.

Until they built the A-30, it seemed like the way to get to Valleyfield was via a bridge that bizarrely points west out of the city, as if the locals were more inclined to head towards Toronto rather than Montreal.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Talking of which, I see that the main street in Valleyfield is called "Rue Victoria". Loyal and faithful subjects.

Not quite

https://www.journaldemontreal.com/2022/09/10/les-quebecois-ne-veulent-rien-savoir-de-charles-iii

I am sure that street was probably named a century ago or more.

Of course, Québécois are known for not wanting to rock the boat too much, having a bit of a "Normand" character: p’têt ben qu’oui, p’têt ben qu’non

It's said that the most Québécois woman's name ever is "Manon Ouimet" (mais non, oui mais).

[Binour]

Originally Posted by Acajack

After being cut off from France and therefore relatively invisible for nearly two centuries, I think that he may have been the first French showbiz celebrity to start paying attention to us in the middle of the 20th century.

In 1880, 10,000 people welcomed actress Sarah Bernardt when she arrived in Montreal.

https://www.ledroit.com/2020/11/23/visit...-canada-c5a0a236880087d92c748db5fa3de0c9

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Black Star

Leave Canada....NOW. No one needs YOU!!!

Except when it's time to get a pipeline to tidewater for eastbound exportation

[lio45]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Talking of which, I see that the main street in Valleyfield is called "Rue Victoria". Loyal and faithful subjects.

The two 1-series provincial highways that intersect in (downtown) Sherbrooke are King Street (Route 112) (named after William IV) and Queen Victoria Blvd (Route 143)

That's not particularly rare or noteworthy. Quebec grew a lot between 1760 and the Quiet Revolution; that growth often has a British flavor, for obvious reasons.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by CreamOfpumpkin

And since we are jumping into the frying pan, how about, Quebec culture is more North American in practice than its self-proclaimed 'Quebec' culture.
Prove me wrong ...

Of course Quebec culture is a fully North American culture! Just like Brazilian culture is fully South American. Who ever disagreed?

Modern American culture shares some stuff with the motherland, right?
And that motherland is in Europe, right? (Not on the Continent, but still totally in Europe.)
Therefore - American culture is European? Nonsense.

Quebec culture is just as "North American" as American culture.