Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[CLC]

i pretty sure the "99 Express" (Nonstop) got cancelled was because it resulted in lots of almost empty or semi-empty buses at times. It also caused much chaos at the Commerical-Broadway station lineups in the morning.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by CLC

i pretty sure the "99 Express" (Nonstop) got cancelled was because it resulted in lots of almost empty or semi-empty buses at times. It also caused much chaos at the Commerical-Broadway station lineups in the morning.

What I noticed was there was hardly any distinction between the 99 B-Line UBC, and the 99 B-Line UBC Express which caused unnecessary confusion for the riders. This was compounded by both flavours of B-Line using the same loading zone, so most of the sheeple would just join the lineup & jump on whatever bus pulled up.

For many people the 99 B-Line UBC was already an 'express' because it skipped most of the local 9-Alma/UBC stops, so they didn't understand the difference between the B-Line UBC and the B-Line UBC Express.

However, if someone got on the 99 B-Line UBC Express, there was PANIC when it zoomed past Clark, with people madly yanking the cord & yelling to get out at Clark for Vancouver Community College. Same thing would repeat at Main St, so the driver would have to revert from being a nonstop to a normal 99-B-Line. Just try and prevent someone from getting on what they thought was 'their' B-Line bus that was only dropping off riders who were on the wrong bus.

And there were other riders who were expecting a nonstop run to UBC only to discover they were on a regular B-Line to UBC.

This could have been easily solved by having a 9-Alma/UBC stop and a 99 B-Line UBC loading zone (as they exist right now) and add a new 999 UBC NonStop loading zone further east on Broadway. By having three different loading zones, the riders decide ahead of time which bus they want to use on Broadway (local, B-Line or NonStop).

Some people may make the MadDash to board a different bus when it arrives, but the smart commuter would have already figured out that means more room on their bus when it arrives. I'd wait a few minutes for the NonStop bus to arrive if it means I get to UBC 5 minutes ahead of the B-Line or 20 minutes ahead of the Local.

If the UBC NonStop can use 12th Ave, and turn south at Broadway/Clark to get to 12th Ave, there can be an nonscheduled 'Panic Stop' just after turning south so people who thought they were on a 'normal' B-Line can get off there, and walk across Broadway to the Clark B-Line stop.

[CLC]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

What I noticed was there was hardly any distinction between the 99 B-Line UBC, and the 99 B-Line UBC Express which caused unnecessary confusion for the riders. This was compounded by both flavours of B-Line using the same loading zone, so most of the sheeple would just join the lineup & jump on whatever bus pulled up.

The situation was made worse by Translink busstops setup as follows:


Commerical Skytrain
Entrance
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
99............................9(non-peak hour)............................... 9 (peak hour)
wait here...................or 99 Express (morning peak only)..........wait here

As a result, some people who did not pay attention boarded 99 Express when they intended to take #9!

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by CLC

The situation was made worse by Translink busstops setup as follows:


Commerical Skytrain
Entrance
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
99............................9(non-peak hour)............................... 9 (peak hour)
wait here...................or 99 Express (morning peak only)..........wait here

As a result, some people who did not pay attention boarded 99 Express when they intended to take #9!

If you can't tell the difference between an electric trolley and a diesel bendy-bus when you get on board, you have other problems that can't be solved by Translink.

[CLC]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

If you can't tell the difference between an electric trolley and a diesel bendy-bus when you get on board, you have other problems that can't be solved by Translink.

^ Actually 9 is not always served by electric trolley (at least back then in 2007-2008?), and if I remember correct "99 Express" did not always use articulated bus. So sometimes they used same type of bus!

And always there are people who go to medical appointment occasionally (to Central Broadway) will get confused which bus to take.

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

If you can't tell the difference between an electric trolley and a diesel bendy-bus when you get on board, you have other problems that can't be solved by Translink.

good thing to read for some basic information.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_psychology

This applies to you also, its sometimes easy to "not see" obvious differences, we all do it every day. When you play the numbers game and take 60,000 or so boardings a day you will always get plenty of people who board the wrong bus.

When you design something you always have to take in to account how "people" work, especially large numbers of people. People WILL board the wrong buses, the trick is to minimize the number of wrong boardings.

Every time we make a decision we play the numbers game, maximize the odds of making the right decision while minimizing the amount of energy and thought required to make it. This means we will sometimes lose, or in other words someone will always lose making a specific decision. Back to the 60,000 people, lots will make the wrong decision and board the wrong bus, just like you sometimes make the wrong decisions(ones where you cant understand how you even made them because their so obviously stupid)

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by CLC

i pretty sure the "99 Express" (Nonstop) got cancelled was because it resulted in lots of almost empty or semi-empty buses at times. It also caused much chaos at the Commerical-Broadway station lineups in the morning.

Following up on my post 3542, that confusion at Commercial can be alleviated by having the UBC-bound commuters siphoned off at Millennium Line VCC Station (using the X84), Expo/ Millennium Line Joyce Station (using the X43) and Canada Line Marine Dr Station (using the X101). Now the remaining riders on the SkyTrain that get out at Commercial /Broadway or Cambie/Broadway are doing so to transfer to the local bus routes, or to the B-Line for a faster run to a major stop on Broadway.

I have done the ‘local-express’ on Broadway trick so many times it’s a routine I don’t even think about – jump on the next 9-Broadway local to the nearest B-Line stop (sometimes in the reverse direction), to get the B-Line to Commercial & get to the RIO for a flick. I used to check when the 99-B-Line passed the 9-Broadway I had used to start the trip, but I found that occurred between Oak and Main, and then it passed several other ‘earlier’ 9-Broadway buses before arriving at Commercial.

[Zassk]

I think the argument for an express UBC bus was that it could be routed down any other east-west route other than Broadway, thus freeing up some road capacity on Broadway for the benefit of the rest of the transit riders. The UBC travellers don't need to spend their entire ride on Broadway.

[lezard]

Here's the cheap solution for Skytrain to UBC. All home owners along the corridor should do as this enterprising Russian pensioner.

http://englishrussia.com/index.php/2010/05/24/the-most-unusual-metro-in-the-world/

[punface]

Article in The Province titled "SkyTrain Alternatives Pondered": http://www.theprovince.com/SkyTrain+alternatives+pondered/3076653/story.html

Features our friends Mel Lehan and the BARSTA.

[WarrenC12]

Excuse my rant...

You know, I have to say, I'm really tired of these idiots. I know it's been said a million times by people in this forum. But the HST campaign is showing us something: if you want action, organize and get it done.

With Translink's limited budget, why don't they go to corridors that want transit? Screw the west side. It's Skytrain or nothing for them. If they don't want it, lets build transit (skytrain or otherwise) for communities that do.

Until UBC students or some other group steps up to "out-protest" these NIMBY pie-in-the-sky morons, who cares. It's more trouble than it's worth at this point.

[mezzanine]

I liked this quote especially:

Booth said most residents prefer surface light-rail, whether it's a streetcar, tram or electric trolley line.

Assuming that 'electric trolley line' doesn't mean existing trolley buses, he seems to be implying choice, but he is really insisting on local service tram. he isn't even mentioning limited stop surface LRT (like TO's transit city)....

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by punface

Article in The Province titled "SkyTrain Alternatives Pondered": http://www.theprovince.com/SkyTrain+alternatives+pondered/3076653/story.html

Features our friends Mel Lehan and the BARSTA.

Quote from the article:

Greg Booth of the Upper Kitsilano Residents Association said locals are worried about high passenger volumes going through their neighbourhood. "We think there needs to be some compromises between protecting local neighbourhoods and businesses, and getting people from A to B."

Booth said most residents prefer surface light-rail, whether it's a streetcar, tram or electric trolley line.

That's completely silly. The impact of "high passenger volumes going through your neighborhood" is far, far less with an underground RT line than with the same volume of people at grade level. What are these guys thinking?

[jsbertram]

Someone should invite Mel for coffee at the Starbucks patio on Davie/Mainland for a few hours in the afternoon rush so he can see for himself how the new Canada Line has 'ruined' that neighborhood.

While he's sitting there he can ponder just how much better the area would be with a tram /streetcar /lrt rolling by on Davie every 3 or 4 minutes carrying commuters who only want to get from their jobs downtown to their home in Richmond or Oakridge.

And he may also ponder how many of those commuters care that a new store in yaletown has opened, or a store is having a sale this week.

[Kwik-E-Mart]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Quote from the article:

Hence Frances Bula's suggestion of naming the streetcar (if chosen unfortunately) as the Creme de la Creme Line.

Better yet, they should erect fences lined with douglas firs around all shopping districts along Broadway (with security guard stations on every block) so that unwanted elements are completely blocked out of sight and presence.

[NucksFanInVan]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Quote from the article:


That's completely silly. The impact of "high passenger volumes going through your neighborhood" is far, far less with an underground RT line than with the same volume of people at grade level. What are these guys thinking?

I'm confused... are they concerned that "high passenger volumes" WILL be going through their neighbourhood (and somehow "spoiling" it)? Or that they WON'T be going through their neighbourhood (and missing the businesses)?

You've got to respect a lobby that can simultaneously present two opposing but equally nonsensical arguments with a straight face...

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by NucksFanInVan

I'm confused... are they concerned that "high passenger volumes" WILL be going through their neighbourhood (and somehow "spoiling" it)? Or that they WON'T be going through their neighbourhood (and missing the businesses)?

You've got to respect a lobby that can simultaneously present two opposing but equally nonsensical arguments with a straight face...

It's the standard "we don't like commuters passing through our community and we refuse to accommodate them" argument.
The same arguments were raised in South Granville when the 98 B-Line was introduced.
Did the 98 B-Line ever get dedicated HOV lanes on Granville? I don't think so.
Oddly, though, the West Broadway solution (use lanes for trams) is akin to what the South Granville businesses were opposing (using lanes for 98 B-Line).

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by officedweller

It's the standard "we don't like commuters passing through our community and we refuse to accommodate them" argument.
The same arguments were raised in South Granville when the 98 B-Line was introduced.
Did the 98 B-Line ever get dedicated HOV lanes on Granville? I don't think so.
Oddly, though, the West Broadway solution (use lanes for trams) is akin to what the South Granville businesses were opposing (using lanes for 98 B-Line).

But the businesses on Granville quickly found out that 'those commuters' that they hated so much were also their local residents using the 98 B-Line to get downtown and back home.

When the 98 B-Line was discontinued to make 'those commuters' use Canada Line instead, the Granville businesses found out that a lot of the 15,000 people using the 98 B-Line every day were local residents who stopped using Granville in favour of Canada Line to get downtown. (most had no choice). With the local residents NOT using their usual commuter stops on Granville, businesses that relied on the people getting their JavaJolt & muffin on the way to their B-Line stop, or getting some groceries on the way home from work saw their revenues fall in double-digit percentages.

For me, the most surprising business failure was "Big News" at Granville/Broadway closing shortly after the 98 B-Line was discontinued. Having Starbucks & Blenz at other bus-stops nearby was added pressure to compete with the big boys, but they managed to do so for many years while the 98 B-Line was running.

[racc]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Quote from the article:


That's completely silly. The impact of "high passenger volumes going through your neighborhood" is far, far less with an underground RT line than with the same volume of people at grade level. What are these guys thinking?

I'm sure not all of them feel like Mary (assuming that this is a serious post, not some kind of joke), it is not necessarily the volume of people that is the issue.
http://www.westender.com/articles/entry/...d-transit-line-on-broadway/#comment-7421

Mel Lehan is a great visionary man, working relentlessly and with altruism for the good of our community.

I heart fully agree with Mel Lehan and the Barsta. A streetcar is already way “rapid” enough for Broadway corridor, a slower one than the Olympic line gently mixing with traffic will allow better windows shopping, and frequent stop a great convenience for store, is a perfect solution for Broadway

I saw here people from the eastern Vancouver and suburbs eager to spread poverty and all sort of devil to our well preserved neighborhoods, and we will never be grateful enough for the stand out of the Great Mel Lehan against the crime train vision.

May God Bless Mel Lehan and the Barsta.

POSTED BY: MARY
DATE: 01/02/2010 7:33 PM
LAST MODIFIED: 03/03/2010 9:57 AM

[MechMike]

Progress haters.


Worried about high volume traffic going through their neighborhood? You kidding me? If the skytrain system would be underground you would barely notice passengers, LRT would create a mess. If you want more people window shopping you need a denser neighborhood and if you want a denser neighborhood you need a high capcity frequent and reliable transit network.

Somebody call the waaahmbulance because some business owner cant promote his or her business like everyone else, lets cater to those who don't want to hold their cups in their hands and install cup holders and free refills in each car. Oh please.

Just think of all the worms and soil your going to displace while burrowing the tunnel! Oh no not the worms!