Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[CLC]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

The reason to do it isn't to attract riders or to give people preferential treatment, it's to try to use the buses you have in as efficient a manner as possible.

The previous 99 Express (Nonstop) experiment was inefficient use of resource as it evidently resulted in many semi-empty buses. Translink had a fixed schedule for 99 Express, that was very difficult to match the collective behaviors of when students arrive or leave (and each weekday is different as well, apparently Wednesday was always most busy), buses could be either packed full or relatively empty.

[Zassk]

I think the argument for an express UBC bus was that it could be routed down any other east-west route other than Broadway, thus freeing up some road capacity on Broadway for the benefit of the rest of the transit riders. The UBC travellers don't need to spend their entire ride on Broadway.

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

If, say, 25% of the people who take the existing B line bus get on at Commercial and off at UBC, then you could take 1/4 of the buses and run them direct and save the time and gas required to make those extra stops. For those 25% of the people the stops are a complete waste.

The reason to do it isn't to attract riders or to give people preferential treatment, it's to try to use the buses you have in as efficient a manner as possible.

It would get even more complicated. If one out of 4 buses went directly to UBC then that would mean a frequency of 8min-16min. But the bus would only shave 5 or so min of the trip, that means it would only be worth it to take it if you arrived in less then 5 minuets from the bus departing.

This would then result in theoretically around 50%-75% of the direct to UBC riders being able to make the trip as fast or faster on the regular 99 b-line.

This then has the obvious result of having these express buses being up to 50% to 75% under used assuming all the passengers take the fastest option(which is what this express bus would be trying to do). Obviously this is EXACTLY what happened before, no surprise there.

It aint rocket science and im a bit surprised someone at translink made a actual attempt to do this before...and waste money. Lets no do it again because it is guaranteed to be a inefficient use of resources as the buses will NOT be used to capacity as they are now.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by CLC

i pretty sure the "99 Express" (Nonstop) got cancelled was because it resulted in lots of almost empty or semi-empty buses at times. It also caused much chaos at the Commerical-Broadway station lineups in the morning.

What I noticed was there was hardly any distinction between the 99 B-Line UBC, and the 99 B-Line UBC Express which caused unnecessary confusion for the riders. This was compounded by both flavours of B-Line using the same loading zone, so most of the sheeple would just join the lineup & jump on whatever bus pulled up.

For many people the 99 B-Line UBC was already an 'express' because it skipped most of the local 9-Alma/UBC stops, so they didn't understand the difference between the B-Line UBC and the B-Line UBC Express.

However, if someone got on the 99 B-Line UBC Express, there was PANIC when it zoomed past Clark, with people madly yanking the cord & yelling to get out at Clark for Vancouver Community College. Same thing would repeat at Main St, so the driver would have to revert from being a nonstop to a normal 99-B-Line. Just try and prevent someone from getting on what they thought was 'their' B-Line bus that was only dropping off riders who were on the wrong bus.

And there were other riders who were expecting a nonstop run to UBC only to discover they were on a regular B-Line to UBC.

This could have been easily solved by having a 9-Alma/UBC stop and a 99 B-Line UBC loading zone (as they exist right now) and add a new 999 UBC NonStop loading zone further east on Broadway. By having three different loading zones, the riders decide ahead of time which bus they want to use on Broadway (local, B-Line or NonStop).

Some people may make the MadDash to board a different bus when it arrives, but the smart commuter would have already figured out that means more room on their bus when it arrives. I'd wait a few minutes for the NonStop bus to arrive if it means I get to UBC 5 minutes ahead of the B-Line or 20 minutes ahead of the Local.

If the UBC NonStop can use 12th Ave, and turn south at Broadway/Clark to get to 12th Ave, there can be an nonscheduled 'Panic Stop' just after turning south so people who thought they were on a 'normal' B-Line can get off there, and walk across Broadway to the Clark B-Line stop.

[CLC]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

What I noticed was there was hardly any distinction between the 99 B-Line UBC, and the 99 B-Line UBC Express which caused unnecessary confusion for the riders. This was compounded by both flavours of B-Line using the same loading zone, so most of the sheeple would just join the lineup & jump on whatever bus pulled up.

The situation was made worse by Translink busstops setup as follows:


Commerical Skytrain
Entrance
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
99............................9(non-peak hour)............................... 9 (peak hour)
wait here...................or 99 Express (morning peak only)..........wait here

As a result, some people who did not pay attention boarded 99 Express when they intended to take #9!

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by CLC

i pretty sure the "99 Express" (Nonstop) got cancelled was because it resulted in lots of almost empty or semi-empty buses at times. It also caused much chaos at the Commerical-Broadway station lineups in the morning.

Following up on my post 3542, that confusion at Commercial can be alleviated by having the UBC-bound commuters siphoned off at Millennium Line VCC Station (using the X84), Expo/ Millennium Line Joyce Station (using the X43) and Canada Line Marine Dr Station (using the X101). Now the remaining riders on the SkyTrain that get out at Commercial /Broadway or Cambie/Broadway are doing so to transfer to the local bus routes, or to the B-Line for a faster run to a major stop on Broadway.

I have done the ‘local-express’ on Broadway trick so many times it’s a routine I don’t even think about – jump on the next 9-Broadway local to the nearest B-Line stop (sometimes in the reverse direction), to get the B-Line to Commercial & get to the RIO for a flick. I used to check when the 99-B-Line passed the 9-Broadway I had used to start the trip, but I found that occurred between Oak and Main, and then it passed several other ‘earlier’ 9-Broadway buses before arriving at Commercial.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by CLC

The situation was made worse by Translink busstops setup as follows:


Commerical Skytrain
Entrance
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
99............................9(non-peak hour)............................... 9 (peak hour)
wait here...................or 99 Express (morning peak only)..........wait here

As a result, some people who did not pay attention boarded 99 Express when they intended to take #9!

If you can't tell the difference between an electric trolley and a diesel bendy-bus when you get on board, you have other problems that can't be solved by Translink.

[CLC]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

If you can't tell the difference between an electric trolley and a diesel bendy-bus when you get on board, you have other problems that can't be solved by Translink.

^ Actually 9 is not always served by electric trolley (at least back then in 2007-2008?), and if I remember correct "99 Express" did not always use articulated bus. So sometimes they used same type of bus!

And always there are people who go to medical appointment occasionally (to Central Broadway) will get confused which bus to take.

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

If you can't tell the difference between an electric trolley and a diesel bendy-bus when you get on board, you have other problems that can't be solved by Translink.

good thing to read for some basic information.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_psychology

This applies to you also, its sometimes easy to "not see" obvious differences, we all do it every day. When you play the numbers game and take 60,000 or so boardings a day you will always get plenty of people who board the wrong bus.

When you design something you always have to take in to account how "people" work, especially large numbers of people. People WILL board the wrong buses, the trick is to minimize the number of wrong boardings.

Every time we make a decision we play the numbers game, maximize the odds of making the right decision while minimizing the amount of energy and thought required to make it. This means we will sometimes lose, or in other words someone will always lose making a specific decision. Back to the 60,000 people, lots will make the wrong decision and board the wrong bus, just like you sometimes make the wrong decisions(ones where you cant understand how you even made them because their so obviously stupid)

[NucksFanInVan]

Originally Posted by lezard

You will have to show why passing people by at a stop is a waste of resources. The 99 passes people by every day at those stops where it is not scheduled to stop. Is the 99 a waste of resources?

OK, it's such an easy challenge that I have to pick up that gauntlet.

"Layered" service _can_ provide a better option ... but only where the individual services are (a) not resource-limited and (b) the "layering" provides significant time savings.

In this case, the resources _are_ limited. Let's assume, for simplicity, that Translink has a fixed number of buses. Now we can assume that adding an express bus would mean taking out a BLine. So the question becomes: how do you move the most people to their destination with fixed resources?

In systems where "layering" works well, "long-distance" commuters will wait through several "local service" departures to catch the express and still get to their destination faster. But the time savings of express over B Line are minimal. People destined for Broadway station will NOT pass up a normal BLine to wait for the next express.

On the other hand, people destined for points west of Broadway station won't get on an express bus because they can't get off at their stop. They will have to wait for the next B Line.

So, BLines carry both "long-distance" and "local" passengers. Express busses carry only "long-distance" passengers.

Let's say for argument sake the long-distance/local split is 50/50 and you have 10 articulated busses to serve the route.

If each bus could do five B-Line runs (Bway Stn return) in eight hours at 100% capacity, or six express runs (Bway Stn return) at 50% capacity, what combination of BLine and express busses moves the most people? Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that 5 x 1.00 > 6 x 0.50.

10 x 5 x 1.00 = 50 busloads
9 x 5 x 1.00 + 1 x 6 x 0.5 = 48 busloads
...
10 x 6 x 0.5 = 30 busloads

Pretty much QED I think.

[NucksFanInVan]

Sorry: one point so obvious I forgot to write it in.

The B Line passes people up at its own stops so by definition it is operating at or near capacity (demand being greater than supply) and is not a waste of resources.

[dubsH]

Originally Posted by NucksFanInVan

Sorry: one point so obvious I forgot to write it in.

The B Line passes people up at its own stops so by definition it is operating at or near capacity (demand being greater than supply) and is not a waste of resources.

I think lezard posed a rhetorical question...

But the time savings of express over B Line are minimal. People destined for Broadway station will NOT pass up a normal BLine to wait for the next express.

While I don't think re-introducing express buses to UBC is the best option at the moment, your argument right there is flawed. In the evening, I see as many 9 buses as much as the 99 (if not sometimes more, when the 99 runs every 10-15 min), but I would never take the 9 over the "express-like" 99 to get to my destination, no matter how many times more frequent it runs (and this is because the 9 stops at nearly every single stop). If the journey is short (say to City Hall station), then it may not matter whether it is the 9 or the 99, but if someone is traversing down all 10km of W Broadway to UBC, then there is a major difference.

[lezard]

Originally Posted by NucksFanInVan

OK, it's such an easy challenge that I have to pick up that gauntlet.

"Layered" service _can_ provide a better option ... but only where the individual services are (a) not resource-limited and (b) the "layering" provides significant time savings.

In this case, the resources _are_ limited. Let's assume, for simplicity, that Translink has a fixed number of buses. Now we can assume that adding an express bus would mean taking out a BLine. So the question becomes: how do you move the most people to their destination with fixed resources?

In systems where "layering" works well, "long-distance" commuters will wait through several "local service" departures to catch the express and still get to their destination faster. But the time savings of express over B Line are minimal. People destined for Broadway station will NOT pass up a normal BLine to wait for the next express.

On the other hand, people destined for points west of Broadway station won't get on an express bus because they can't get off at their stop. They will have to wait for the next B Line.

So, BLines carry both "long-distance" and "local" passengers. Express busses carry only "long-distance" passengers.

Let's say for argument sake the long-distance/local split is 50/50 and you have 10 articulated busses to serve the route.

If each bus could do five B-Line runs (Bway Stn return) in eight hours at 100% capacity, or six express runs (Bway Stn return) at 50% capacity, what combination of BLine and express busses moves the most people? Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that 5 x 1.00 > 6 x 0.50.

10 x 5 x 1.00 = 50 busloads
9 x 5 x 1.00 + 1 x 6 x 0.5 = 48 busloads
...
10 x 6 x 0.5 = 30 busloads

Pretty much QED I think.

So QED, the B-Line is a waste of resources? Not sure what point you are trying to make.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by dubsH

I think lezard posed a rhetorical question...



While I don't think re-introducing express buses to UBC is the best option at the moment, your argument right there is flawed. In the evening, I see as many 9 buses as much as the 99 (if not sometimes more, when the 99 runs every 10-15 min), but I would never take the 9 over the "express-like" 99 to get to my destination, no matter how many times more frequent it runs (and this is because the 9 stops at nearly every single stop). If the journey is short (say to City Hall station), then it may not matter whether it is the 9 or the 99, but if someone is traversing down all 10km of W Broadway to UBC, then there is a major difference.

If the 99 B-Line you're on gets to your destination while passing all the 9 local buses you didn't take before the 99 B-Line showed up, you've actually saved time by waiting for the 99 B-Line instead of taking the first 9 local that came along.

If the 99 B-Line also passes 'earlier' 9 Local buses before getting to your destination, you have actually saved more traveling time by not having to catch any of those earlier 9 local buses.

[lezard]

Here's the cheap solution for Skytrain to UBC. All home owners along the corridor should do as this enterprising Russian pensioner.

http://englishrussia.com/index.php/2010/05/24/the-most-unusual-metro-in-the-world/

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by dubsH

I think lezard posed a rhetorical question...



While I don't think re-introducing express buses to UBC is the best option at the moment, your argument right there is flawed. In the evening, I see as many 9 buses as much as the 99 (if not sometimes more, when the 99 runs every 10-15 min), but I would never take the 9 over the "express-like" 99 to get to my destination, no matter how many times more frequent it runs (and this is because the 9 stops at nearly every single stop). If the journey is short (say to City Hall station), then it may not matter whether it is the 9 or the 99, but if someone is traversing down all 10km of W Broadway to UBC, then there is a major difference.

Tell me about it. Last Monday I happened to be at Granville and Broadway. Walking up to the Eastbound bus stop. To catch the 99 to Cambie. I check my cell to see that the 99 won't be there for another 5 minutes. But just as I stop at the bus stop I turn to see the #9. Well I did a quick debate and figured I should just take this as it will probably get me there a bit faster. Ya right. Just as we pass Oak. The 99 blows past us .

[trofirhen]

Just think .... if that had happened 20 years in the future ..... it wouldn't have happened. You would (probably) have had skyrain rrt to whisk you quickly westward.
Or, if certain parties have their way, a quaint lrt with a "ding-ding" ..... or maybe a "fweeeeeeeeep" punctuated once or twice a month by the sound of a car horn, the crunching and tearing of metal, and screams of "oh my god! .........."

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by NucksFanInVan

OK, it's such an easy challenge that I have to pick up that gauntlet.

"Layered" service _can_ provide a better option ... but only where the individual services are (a) not resource-limited and (b) the "layering" provides significant time savings.

In this case, the resources _are_ limited. Let's assume, for simplicity, that Translink has a fixed number of buses. Now we can assume that adding an express bus would mean taking out a BLine. So the question becomes: how do you move the most people to their destination with fixed resources?

In systems where "layering" works well, "long-distance" commuters will wait through several "local service" departures to catch the express and still get to their destination faster. But the time savings of express over B Line are minimal. People destined for Broadway station will NOT pass up a normal BLine to wait for the next express.

On the other hand, people destined for points west of Broadway station won't get on an express bus because they can't get off at their stop. They will have to wait for the next B Line.

So, BLines carry both "long-distance" and "local" passengers. Express busses carry only "long-distance" passengers.

Let's say for argument sake the long-distance/local split is 50/50 and you have 10 articulated busses to serve the route.

If each bus could do five B-Line runs (Bway Stn return) in eight hours at 100% capacity, or six express runs (Bway Stn return) at 50% capacity, what combination of BLine and express busses moves the most people? Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that 5 x 1.00 > 6 x 0.50.

10 x 5 x 1.00 = 50 busloads
9 x 5 x 1.00 + 1 x 6 x 0.5 = 48 busloads
...
10 x 6 x 0.5 = 30 busloads

Pretty much QED I think.

Following your logic, Air Canada should NOT be flying direct non-stop flights between Vancouver and Toronto using expensive planes that aren't always full, but instead should use their limited number of expensive airplanes to make flights from Vancouver to Toronto (and back) with stops in Calgary, Regina and Winnipeg. Since the passengers traveling between Vancouver and Toronto get there eventually, they shouldn't complain about all the extra stops en route.

You can never find a Rocket Scientist when you need one .....

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Just think .... if that had happened 20 years in the future ..... it wouldn't have happened. You would (probably) have had skyrain rrt to whisk you quickly westward.
Or, if certain parties have their way, a quaint lrt with a "ding-ding" ..... or maybe a "fweeeeeeeeep" punctuated once or twice a month by the sound of a car horn, the crunching and tearing of metal, and screams of "oh my god! .........."

I think you pressed [Submit Reply] before finishing your last sentence, so let me finish it for you.

and screams of "Oh my God, they killed Kenny! ...You bastards!"

[punface]

Article in The Province titled "SkyTrain Alternatives Pondered": http://www.theprovince.com/SkyTrain+alternatives+pondered/3076653/story.html

Features our friends Mel Lehan and the BARSTA.