Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[mezzanine]

Originally Posted by allan_kuan

In a way politics needs to be overhauled based on the fact that almost every improvement that is needed here is somehow tied up like a leash to whichever party that gets elected. It's quite sad actually... if this sort of game keeps happening we'll barely get things done....

It's not as bad here as in Japan. The rapid transit lines here at least follow the LRSP and are part of a larger strategy. In japan, they build some newer shinkansen lines to nowhere out of sheer politicking.

At the other end of the spectrum, some argue that the Joetsu Shinkansen Line is a prime example of pork-barrel politics gone bad. The late Prime Minister Kakuei Tanaka, a legendary mover and shaker, had a strong influence in getting the line built to his native Niigata Prefecture, which was known more for its rice paddies than its tourist attractions.

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20081209i1.html

[jsbertram]

Just to be clear, my first choice has always been SkyTrain from VCC to UBC, and nothing has changed mind from that choice.

However, I realized while looking at the six UBC Line Study alternatives that the preference of one alternative over the others shouldn’t be necessary. Using a layered transit approach, some elements of these six alternatives can be built in stages, starting with bus improvements, adding Streetcars and later SkyTrain. Because each stage is not dependent on the others for its completion, each stage can be built according to its own schedule and financing arrangements.


A) Buses

Regular local buses to UBC get improved to the best of their capabilities and are supplemented by B-Line or Express buses.

New UBC Express buses

X84 UBC Express from Millennium Line VCC Station to UBC via 4th Ave with stops at GNW Campus, Canada Line Olympic Station and Granville Island. The X84 runs non-stop express between Granville Island and the UBC Transit Hub. This supplements the existing 84 route which remains as a local bus. The reverse route is X84 VCC Station Express with similar stops.

X44 UBC Express from Waterfront to UBC via Burrard Street and 4th Ave with stops at Robson, Davie, and Burrard/4th,and then runs non-stop express to the UBC Transit Hub. This supplements the existing 44 route. The reverse route is X44 Waterfront Station Express with similar stops.

X43 UBC Express from Expo Line Joyce Station to UBC via 41st Ave with stops at Langara and Canada Line 41st Ave Station (with a future stop at Arbutus Corridor). The X43 runs non-stop express between 41st Ave Station (later the Arbutus Corridor station) and the UBC Transit Hub. This supplements the existing 43 and 41 routes. The reverse route is X43 Joyce Station Express with similar stops.

X101 UBC Express from Canada Line Marine Drive Station to UBC via Marine Dr. (with a future stop at Arbutus Corridor), and runs non-stop express between Marine Drive Station (later the Arbutus Corridor station) and the UBC Transit Hub. This is a new Route. The reverse route is X101 Marine Drive Station Express with similar stops.

By using these UBC Express buses, the 1/3 of riders who are only traveling exclusively between the UBC Transit Hub and a Skytrain Station or Waterfront Station can be separated from the rest of the bus riders who want other stops serviced by local or B-Line buses that are also traveling to or from UBC. These Express routes would likely start as standard size buses, but if ridership increases sufficiently, articulated buses can be used instead. Because these Express buses would have few stops, they will have faster service to UBC than local buses going to UBC.

99 B-Line UBC gets upgraded to BRT or BRT-lite from Commercial Dr. Transit Hub via Broadway through the Arbutus Transit Hub to the UBC Transit Hub. Stops would remain as they are with the current 99 B-Line. The reverse route is 99 B-Line Commercial & Broadway.

Some of the BRT features like traffic light priority, no-step platform loading, and pre-purchased ticketing could be used on the UBC Express routes so they can operate faster too. Even with the UBC Express and B-Line having similar features, there should be some distinction between the two types of service, since the 9 B-Line has a dozen stops between the Skytrain station and the UBC Transit Hub.


B) Streetcar

Phase 1:

The Downtown Streetcar is built according to the City of Vancouver plans, with an extension from Granville Island to the Arbutus Transit Hub at Arbutus Corridor @ Broadway using the abandoned CPR line.

Phase 2:

Extend the Streetcar line down the Arbutus Corridor to 16th Ave, west on 16th Ave to UBC Wesbrook Mall, and North on Wesbrook Mall to the UBC Transit Hub. This can be built on the existing 16th Ave 40-foot wide median that runs from Trafalgar (Choices Market) to Wesbrook Mall at UBC. Using this median allows Streetcars to be added without reducing the existing traffic and parking lanes along 16th Ave. 16th Ave could use more of the median to create extra width for sidewalks or to add bike lanes to UBC. A short tunnel from 14th Ave & Arbutus Corridor curving west under 16th Ave to Trafalgar can be used to connect to the 16th Ave Streetcar median on the section of 16th Avenue between Arbutus and Trafalgar that isn’t wide enough for Streetcar tracks, traffic lanes and residential parking. This short six block-long tunnel would also be constructed so the streetcar can be extended south down the Arbutus Corridor in the future. Treating 16th Avenue as a streetcar boulevard may also allow residential and commercial improvements at major intersections – Arbutus, Trafalgar, MacDonald, Dunbar, Wesbrook – that aren’t feasible now because of existing transit and traffic limitations.

With the Streetcar running from Main St. Station to the UBC Transit Hub, this could reduce ridership on the local, B-Line and Express routes to UBC as riders can take advantage of the quicker access to UBC by the streetcar.

Phase 3:

Extend the Streetcar line east from Canada Line Olympic Village / Main Street to Millennium Line VCC Station. This can use one or two of the existing CN yard tracks adjacent to GNW Campus, and should be built to accommodate the future overhead SkyTrain Millennium extension to UBC that will also be run between GNW Campus and the CN rail yard. With the Streetcar running from VCC Station to the UBC Transit Hub, the x84 Express bus may be retired.

Phase 4:

UBC Streetcar loop using Wesbrook Mall, Thunderbird Blvd, West Mall, University Blvd and UBC Transit Hub to provide local transit service within UBC. It can be built so that the 16th Ave Streetcar can loop through UBC before returning to Downtown Vancouver and Main St station or VCC Station.

Phase 5:

Extend the Streetcar line from Granville Island around Credit Union building (following the abandoned CPR alignment) into a new tunnel under False Creek and a new Burrard Street subway tunnel from the north shore of False Creek to the Convention Centre. Extend the Streetcar line south on Arbutus corridor to Marine Drive.


C) SkyTrain

Millennium Line extension from VCC Station along the CN yard north of GNW Campus, South in a tunnel under Prince Edward St, west in a tunnel under 10th Avenue from Kingsgate Mall to UBC Transit Hub. Routing under 10th Ave and building with TBM methods would have minor interruptions on Broadway and the major cross-streets. By staying on the 10th Avenue alignment for the entire length, the jog at Broadway/Alma/10th Ave wouldn’t be necessary, and buildings at those intersections wouldn’t need to be expropriated.

By using TBM construction, only the single block-long street where a station has to be dug down to meet the TBM tunnels will be inconvenienced. The north-south streets on either side of station construction will remain open for traffic, and Broadway being a block away won’t need to be blocked with construction.

This can be built in stages:

1. from VCC to stations at Kingsway/Main and Cambie Transit Hub;
2. Extension to stations at Oak, Granville, and Arbutus Transit Hub;
3. Extension to stations at Macdonald and Alma;
4. Extension to stations at Sasamat and UBC Transit Hub.

As SkyTrain is built westward, the connecting B-Line terminus also moves westward to always provide a BRT connection to UBC.

Because the Streetcar line is built on 16th Ave, rather than Broadway or 10th Ave to UBC, there isn’t any wasted money spent on Streetcar tracks that are later ripped up to build Skytrain.


Because these elements can be built independent of the others, and on their own schedule depending on finances, one isn’t dependent on the others for completion. These provide layers of transit between UBC and the rest of Vancouver, and the rest of the Greater Vancouver area.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

By using these UBC Express buses, the 1/3 of riders who are only traveling exclusively between the UBC Transit Hub and a Skytrain Station or Waterfront Station can be separated from the rest of the bus riders who want other stops serviced by local or B-Line buses that are also traveling to or from UBC.

I've been thinking that true, non-stop UBC express buses are a good idea too. It seems to me that the beauty of a true express bus is that it improves service at basically no extra cost. In fact, if it reduces the round-trip time enough then there might even be a chance of freeing up a bus or two to improve frequency on the regular B-Line without adding any additional overall service hours.

[jsbertram]

Translink can easily see how fast an Express can make it between Commercial to UBC; Just capture the GPS readings of an "out of service" bus making that dash. Add a minute or two to allow for passengers exiting and boarding at the beginning and end of the run, and you've got a good estimate of the Express bus running time to UBC.

I'm not sure if they run "out of service" buses on 4th, 41st, 25th, 16th, or Marine during the daytime but if they do, then they have some data they can use to see how much faster the UBC Express buses can operate vs. regular (local) buses and the B-Line buses.

[Mininari]

Considering the heavy volume of skytrain-UBC traffic that floods onto the 99 every day, I am really surprised that they haven't implemented some kind of express service yet... even if its only on peak hours. It would be hugely popular, and free up the 99 for its "other" stops along the way. Y'know, those "other" places people try to get on the packed bus as they whiz by...

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by Mininari

Considering the heavy volume of skytrain-UBC traffic that floods onto the 99 every day, I am really surprised that they haven't implemented some kind of express service yet... even if its only on peak hours. It would be hugely popular, and free up the 99 for its "other" stops along the way. Y'know, those "other" places people try to get on the packed bus as they whiz by...

I purposely didn't create an "X99" express from Commercial because the previous one was a failure. Primarily because when the bus pulled up, people didn't bother to check the sign to see if it was a 'regular' 99 B-Line or a NonStop UBC B-Line. By the time the NonStop UBC B-Line had passed Clark and Main without stopping there were near-riots from the people whose stops had been skipped, and drivers had to make unscheduled stops & slowing down the service. Now the 'NonStop' bus was delayed even more because people standing at that non-scheduled stop fought to get on the bus before the doors closed.

By having these express buses start from VCC (for E-W Millennium line riders), and Joyce (for Surrey - Waterfront Expo line riders), and Marine (for Richmond - Waterfront Canada line riders), those transfers are done at stations other than Commercial, so people will figure out the right station to use for the bus they want (UBC Express or B-Line), and those express buses are likely to be waiting when the rider arrives at the station.

Who knows how the travel patterns could change? Some people may discover that X84 from VCC isn't packed, so they'll deliberately stop using Joyce & X43 and use Broadway/Commercial to VCC & X84; or skip Marine & X101 in favour of Olympic Village & X84. Someone living downtown may discover the bus to Yaletown then train to Olympic Village & X84 is faster than catching the X44 at Davie/Burrard if the X44 is already packed with WCE and North Shore people heading to UBC.

[SFUVancouver]

There used to be an express Commercial-Broadway Stn to UBC B-Line bus but Translink discontinued it because the regular 99 B-Line was so congested. It was an inefficient use of their limited resources to have often-half empty express B-Lines zip past crowds of people at normal B-Line stops that will be passed up by the full normal B-Lines. Moreover I heard that it generated serious bad blood between the drivers and Coast Mountain Bus Company since the drivers of the normal B-Line would be screamed at by angry people that saw one or two nearly empty express B-Lines sail past while they were passed up by three or four normal B-Lines.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver

...I heard that it generated serious bad blood between the drivers and Coast Mountain Bus Company since the drivers of the normal B-Line would be screamed at by angry people that saw one or two nearly empty express B-Lines sail past while they were passed up by three or four normal B-Lines.

That's probably a good argument for having it on a different route such as VCC - Olympic Village - UBC.

[dleung]

I find it very hard to maintain interest in talk of buses, because they lack any sort of permanence and reliability. Part of me thinks they'll get more ridership if they stop changing up the routes every couple months like underwear.

It will also help if they stop playing with the frickin schedules posted at the bus stops. The biggest embarrassment was the money they spent on the fancy new signs, which don't turn, so you have to risk getting hit by traffic to see the 4th side of the box. And to save ink, only the frequencies are provided for certain periods of time... which, while ok for 5-10 minute buses, is completely sadistic for riders of certain routes, who will have no idea whether they just missed it or have to wait half an hour or one hour for the next one.

So yeah, more LRT/subway please.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver

There used to be an express Commercial-Broadway Stn to UBC B-Line bus but Translink discontinued it because the regular 99 B-Line was so congested. It was an inefficient use of their limited resources to have often-half empty express B-Lines zip past crowds of people at normal B-Line stops that will be passed up by the full normal B-Lines. Moreover I heard that it generated serious bad blood between the drivers and Coast Mountain Bus Company since the drivers of the normal B-Line would be screamed at by angry people that saw one or two nearly empty express B-Lines sail past while they were passed up by three or four normal B-Lines.

But the major reason for its failure was it was difficult - impossible even - to easily distinguish between the 'regular' 99 B-Line and the 'Express' 99 B-Line. They even had the similar B-Line name and used the same bus types. If you missed the front sign as the bus arrived, or can't see the side sign from the back-back door, there's no way to know what bus route you're on. When you're running from the train to the bus, you're not gonna spend too much time guessing 'is this the right bus at this stop?'

One way this could have been resolved is to have three loading areas at Commercial: One for '9 UBC' local, one for '99 UBC B-Line', and one for 'xx UBC Express'.

Some people thought 'express' meant it made fewer stops (not realising that the 'regular' 99 B-Line already did that). If the name was changed to something like "UBC NonStop" (dropping the B-Line designation too) with a different number - NS9 - it might have worked, but NS9 is too similar to 9N (the night bus), so there's more confusion.

I can't tell you how many times someone has asked me when the 9N is arriving, and are MAD at me when I say 'not until after midnight' - thinking I'm jerking them around.

By having the UBC Express riders choose the route they want (X101, X43, X84, X44) and separate themselves from the rest of the riders who want (need) to use local or B-Line buses, you can improve bus service for everyone.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver

There used to be an express Commercial-Broadway Stn to UBC B-Line bus but Translink discontinued it because the regular 99 B-Line was so congested. It was an inefficient use of their limited resources to have often-half empty express B-Lines zip past crowds of people at normal B-Line stops that will be passed up by the full normal B-Lines. Moreover I heard that it generated serious bad blood between the drivers and Coast Mountain Bus Company since the drivers of the normal B-Line would be screamed at by angry people that saw one or two nearly empty express B-Lines sail past while they were passed up by three or four normal B-Lines.

I wrote a note to TransLink back then to get the UBC Express from Commercial to run on 12th Ave (via Broadway - Clark - 12th), and if anyone was panicked about being on the wrong bus make an unscheduled stop at clark/broadway to let them off after turning south.

Those people on the wrong bus can exit & walk across broadway to the Clark B-Line stop.

By running the express bus on 12th Ave, everyone on Broadway who is waiting for a B-Line won't see the Express zoom by on 12th, so they won't be P*ssed Off watching what they think is a B-Line bus zoom past them without stopping.

Furthermore, there are no bus stops on 12th so there's nobody waiting there who would be be P*ssed Off watching a bus zoom past them without stopping.

[BCPhil]

Sorry, I don't believe in express buses. What makes a student with a Upass holier than someone trying to get to work on time at Broadway and Arbutus? It's a fragmentation of the system and basically creating a caste system where one persons time is more valued than someone else's.

Unless the buses ONLY left 110% full from Commercial (and I mean no space left for people to even stand), an express service is a waste of resources as it might pass by people waiting for overfull buses they can't get on (which is what happened to the express trial). Unless students want to fork over an extra premium just for an express ticket (like a WCE ticket) it's completely unfair to everyone else.

[lezard]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

Sorry, I don't believe in express buses. What makes a student with a Upass holier than someone trying to get to work on time at Broadway and Arbutus? It's a fragmentation of the system and basically creating a caste system where one persons time is more valued than someone else's.

Unless the buses ONLY left 110% full from Commercial (and I mean no space left for people to even stand), an express service is a waste of resources as it might pass by people waiting for overfull buses they can't get on (which is what happened to the express trial). Unless students want to fork over an extra premium just for an express ticket (like a WCE ticket) it's completely unfair to everyone else.

Then we shouldn't be considering up to 3 billion for LRT or a Skytrain to UBC, just a waste of resources that would be better used elsewhere on the system.

The logic behind any express service to UBC is to take pressure off the rest of the transit system. By returning spare capacity to omnibus and fast busses, it makes commuting by other transit users easier and raises fare revenue on those lines.

One of the main goals of the Broadway corridor transit line is to create an express service to UBC. Possibly half the projected ridership of the UBC line would be UBC students, faculty and staff.

Question: how much is the Translink subsidy for the U-Pass?

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by lezard

Then we shouldn't be considering up to 3 billion for LRT or a Skytrain to UBC, just a waste of resources that would be better used elsewhere on the system.

The logic behind any express service to UBC is to take pressure off the rest of the transit system. By returning spare capacity to omnibus and fast busses, it makes commuting by other transit users easier and raises fare revenue on those lines.

One of the main goals of the Broadway corridor transit line is to create an express service to UBC. Possibly half the projected ridership of the UBC line would be UBC students, faculty and staff.

Question: how much is the Translink subsidy for the U-Pass?

Skytrain to UBC won't just stop at UBC, it stops at all the stations in between. Everyone that gets on at Commercial will see a time savings vs taking the B-Line, not just a select few if it were an express.

An express bus service on a heavily used corridor where people are passed by at stops by full buses is a waste of resources. Very few bline express buses would leave commercial at absolute maximum capacity, meaning empty seats would pass by people waiting for seats at other stops. It's a waste of buses so a select few can save on average 5 minutes.

Could you imagine waiting for a Canada Line train for 4 minutes at Broadway only to have a half full train blow through the station on an express run to the airport? Then wait another 4 minutes for the train that will stop for you?

It's clear there are a lot of current/former UBC students, but UBC isn't the be all end all of the Broadway corridor, there are other destinations and travelers there too (that pay a lot more per month for transit than a student).



Using limited resources to cater to a subset of travelers in an area where there are not enough buses to begin with is not the best use of those resources. It's the same argument used against having the suburban buses enter downtown. It's a much better use of resources to have them terminate at Bridgeport instead of having redundant travel methods compete with each other.

[trofirhen]

The dialectic here seems like an argument between an all-or-nothing situation. Some form of compromise that will take the pressure off the main bus system (...while skytrain is being built ...) and provide a faster, more convenient service to UBC must be possible if we put our heads to it. Surely. Nevertheless, I'll leave that up to the transit users back home, and to the planners and "experts."

[twoNeurons]

I also don't see the logic in providing direct service to UBC.

The only reason someone introduces direct service is because it will attract more riders who care about time savings.

Heathrow Express, Gatwick Express, West Coast Express ( from Port Moody ), Nozomi Shinkansen (Tokyo - Osaka with a couple of stops )...

These are all premium services with a riders that are willing to pay the premium price.

Unless a bus is travelling on a freeway, it doesn't need to be non-stop.

I don't see how a non-stop would free up resources to be used elsewhere.

One of the main goals is NOT to create an express to UBC. One of the main goals is to create a service that can efficiently get riders to destinations along the Broadway corridor, of which UBC is one of them.

If it were viable, I could see a UBC Express making fewer stops... perhaps the 84 could be re-branded and only stop at Main, The Canada Line, VGH, Arbutus and UBC.

But a Non-stop from Commercial just doesn't make sense to me. If they were to charge an extra $2 for non-stop how many would ride it? Even an extra $1 and it would have no riders. The 99 is more efficient maximizing ridership.

[lezard]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

Skytrain to UBC won't just stop at UBC, it stops at all the stations in between. Everyone that gets on at Commercial will see a time savings vs taking the B-Line, not just a select few if it were an express.

An express bus service on a heavily used corridor where people are passed by at stops by full buses is a waste of resources. Very few bline express buses would leave commercial at absolute maximum capacity, meaning empty seats would pass by people waiting for seats at other stops. It's a waste of buses so a select few can save on average 5 minutes.

Could you imagine waiting for a Canada Line train for 4 minutes at Broadway only to have a half full train blow through the station on an express run to the airport? Then wait another 4 minutes for the train that will stop for you?

It's clear there are a lot of current/former UBC students, but UBC isn't the be all end all of the Broadway corridor, there are other destinations and travelers there too (that pay a lot more per month for transit than a student).



Using limited resources to cater to a subset of travelers in an area where there are not enough buses to begin with is not the best use of those resources. It's the same argument used against having the suburban buses enter downtown. It's a much better use of resources to have them terminate at Bridgeport instead of having redundant travel methods compete with each other.

You will have to show why passing people by at a stop is a waste of resources. The 99 passes people by every day at those stops where it is not scheduled to stop. Is the 99 a waste of resources?

It makes perfect sense to me to run a service over a long distance that would only have a few stops in between to channel the commute transit users, who come from outside of that route and are heading to the route terminal, away from the services that stop frequently and service the transit users that are traveling within the route.

The purpose is not only to save time on the express service but free capacity on the slow services that would otherwise be clogged over the whole length of the route by the long distance commuter.

And, yes I can easily imagine seeing an express Canada Line pass me by while I wait for the scheduled regular service. I don't understand why it appears so strange to you. Layered services are a logical use of transit resources. If you feel it is unfair that you can't get on the B-Line at say Trutch, that's your problem.


Express service and omnibus service are not redundant, they cater to two different transit users. Short trip and long trip or commute. Translink does nothing but cater to subsets of travelers and allocate resources accordingly.

9 and 99 are examples of this. One nominally caters to short trip users whilst the other is meant to serve the UBC commute mainly. The fact that some transit users make use of the 9 or 99 indifferently does not change the fact that they both target different transit user subsets. They are not redundant even though they run on the same route.

You haven't answered my question about the Translink subsidy for the U-Pass yet.

[lezard]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

I also don't see the logic in providing direct service to UBC.

The only reason someone introduces direct service is because it will attract more riders who care about time savings.

Heathrow Express, Gatwick Express, West Coast Express ( from Port Moody ), Nozomi Shinkansen (Tokyo - Osaka with a couple of stops )...

These are all premium services with a riders that are willing to pay the premium price.

Unless a bus is travelling on a freeway, it doesn't need to be non-stop.

I don't see how a non-stop would free up resources to be used elsewhere.

One of the main goals is NOT to create an express to UBC. One of the main goals is to create a service that can efficiently get riders to destinations along the Broadway corridor, of which UBC is one of them.

If it were viable, I could see a UBC Express making fewer stops... perhaps the 84 could be re-branded and only stop at Main, The Canada Line, VGH, Arbutus and UBC.

But a Non-stop from Commercial just doesn't make sense to me. If they were to charge an extra $2 for non-stop how many would ride it? Even an extra $1 and it would have no riders. The 99 is more efficient maximizing ridership.

Where did get the idea that transit providers only introduce direct service to attract new users? Many non stop lines in Europe are not premium, and cost the same as the regular fare.

Again, layered transit caters to the many different types of transit users.

Express service to UBC is one of the main goals of the UBC line. You say so yourself in your retort.

And finally you say that a UBC Express could make sense with maybe 4 stops. You do see the logic in providing express service.

[CLC]

i pretty sure the "99 Express" (Nonstop) got cancelled was because it resulted in lots of almost empty or semi-empty buses at times. It also caused much chaos at the Commerical-Broadway station lineups in the morning.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

The only reason someone introduces direct service is because it will attract more riders who care about time savings.

If, say, 25% of the people who take the existing B line bus get on at Commercial and off at UBC, then you could take 1/4 of the buses and run them direct and save the time and gas required to make those extra stops. For those 25% of the people the stops are a complete waste.

The reason to do it isn't to attract riders or to give people preferential treatment, it's to try to use the buses you have in as efficient a manner as possible.